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View Full Version : Getting a New Bengal Kitten - Advice, please? :)


March 3rd 07, 06:30 PM
Good morning, everbody! I have been on a quest to find a new Bengal
kitten to "entertain" my resident 4 year old [spayed] Bengal girl and
I have a male silver spotted Bengal
coming my way on March 13th. The breeder is very sweet and she
seems to take VERY good care of her cats (she lives 12 hours away so
I can't visit), and isn't releasing him to me until he is 13 weeks
old. (I got my girl, Tina, 4 years ago when she was 9 or 10 weeks,
though..)

Anyway, Tina doesn't like to be held, although she is very
affectionate and likes attention. When I was handling her as a
kitten, I would always put her down when she started to squirm so
that she wouldn't think I was a mean monster. I realize that her
squirmyness is probably her personality, but since I have a "clean
slate" arriving in a couple weeks, I wanted to get some advice from
the experts!

Should I continue to hold him, even if he squirms, to get him used
to the idea? Is there anything "special" I can do to help him
embrace a cuddly side (to the extent that his Bengal personality will
allow)?

The breeder says that he likes to be held and that he's very cuddly,
but I doubt she'd tell me if this wasn't the case. ;)

Any advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!

Leslie

cybercat
March 3rd 07, 09:07 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Good morning, everbody! I have been on a quest to find a new Bengal
> kitten to "entertain" my resident 4 year old [spayed] Bengal girl and
> I have a male silver spotted Bengal
> coming my way on March 13th. The breeder is very sweet and she
> seems to take VERY good care of her cats (she lives 12 hours away so
> I can't visit), and isn't releasing him to me until he is 13 weeks
> old. (I got my girl, Tina, 4 years ago when she was 9 or 10 weeks,
> though..)
>
> Anyway, Tina doesn't like to be held, although she is very
> affectionate and likes attention. When I was handling her as a
> kitten, I would always put her down when she started to squirm so
> that she wouldn't think I was a mean monster. I realize that her
> squirmyness is probably her personality, but since I have a "clean
> slate" arriving in a couple weeks, I wanted to get some advice from
> the experts!
>
> Should I continue to hold him, even if he squirms, to get him used
> to the idea? Is there anything "special" I can do to help him
> embrace a cuddly side (to the extent that his Bengal personality will
> allow)?
>
> The breeder says that he likes to be held and that he's very cuddly,
> but I doubt she'd tell me if this wasn't the case. ;)
>
> Any advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!
>

Don't buy from breeders when there are lovely affectionate cats dying all
over the place in huge numbers for lack of homes.

sheelagh
March 3rd 07, 09:38 PM
On 3 Mar, 20:07, "cybercat" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Good morning, everbody! I have been on a quest to find a new Bengal
> > kitten to "entertain" my resident 4 year old [spayed] Bengal girl and
> > I have a male silver spotted Bengal
> > coming my way on March 13th. The breeder is very sweet and she
> > seems to take VERY good care of her cats (she lives 12 hours away so
> > I can't visit), and isn't releasing him to me until he is 13 weeks
> > old. (I got my girl, Tina, 4 years ago when she was 9 or 10 weeks,
> > though..)
>
> > Anyway, Tina doesn't like to be held, although she is very
> > affectionate and likes attention. When I was handling her as a
> > kitten, I would always put her down when she started to squirm so
> > that she wouldn't think I was a mean monster. I realize that her
> > squirmyness is probably her personality, but since I have a "clean
> > slate" arriving in a couple weeks, I wanted to get some advice from
> > the experts!
>
> > Should I continue to hold him, even if he squirms, to get him used
> > to the idea? Is there anything "special" I can do to help him
> > embrace a cuddly side (to the extent that his Bengal personality will
> > allow)?
>
> > The breeder says that he likes to be held and that he's very cuddly,
> > but I doubt she'd tell me if this wasn't the case. ;)
>
> > Any advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!
>
> Don't buy from breeders when there are lovely affectionate cats dying all
> over the place in huge numbers for lack of homes.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I want you to know that the breeder that you have been talking to has
nothing more on his or her mind than telling you exactly what they
think that you want to hear....

& how do I know this...? I am a recent ex breeder..! It shames me to
know that every single year, hundreds of thousands of cats die each
year to make space for these branded cats.

I used to breed both Ragdolls & Birmans, & I still love them
dearly... however, there is the wider issue which is, there are people
out there that wouldn't consider having a shelter kitty.

I understand your reasons for wanting another Bengal, but by nature,
Bengals are not cuddly cats, rather they are hunters & lithe cats that
prefer not to be cuddled, & if they do, it is only ever on their
terms...
If I were to ask you to also take on a shelter kitty @ the same time
as your new addition, it might help with the bonding process. The
kitten learns from the mother, but if there is no mother present, they
will learnt from litter mates, of other cats around them.

I think that it would solve the wider problem here, which is wanting
your kitties to learn to be better lap cats.

Your answer is to also introduce a Moggie here, then they will emulate
the shelter kitty & learn how to love you from shelter kitty & be the
lap cat you are looking for.

I hope that you don't see this as a reprimand, rather as a bit of
advice from a breeder.
Best of Luck & let us know how it goes,ok?
S;o)

-L.
March 3rd 07, 10:36 PM
cybercat wrote:
> >
> > Any advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!
> >
>
> Don't buy from breeders when there are lovely affectionate cats dying all
> over the place in huge numbers for lack of homes.

Ditto what cybercat said. Buying an animal is ridiculous when
thousands are killed daily for lack of homes. (God I hate
breeders...and the people who support them...)

-L.

Lynne
March 4th 07, 02:14 AM
on Sat, 03 Mar 2007 21:36:32 GMT, "-L." > wrote:

> Ditto what cybercat said. Buying an animal is ridiculous when
> thousands are killed daily for lack of homes. (God I hate
> breeders...and the people who support them...)

Breeders in general are not the problem. GOOD breeders who breed very
selectively in order to protect the breed standard, who require that all
kittens are spayed or neutered, and who take responsibility for the entire
life of those kittens are NOT the problem. People who buy from these GOOD
breeders are NOT the problem. Kitten mills and backyard breeders ARE the
problem, and people who buy from them ARE the problem. People who fail to
spay or neuter their cats, like our very own resident dumbass Barry, are an
even larger part of the problem. And certainly people who abandon their
cats are a major part of the problem.

Yes there are a mind numbingly large number of cats in shelters, but that
doesn't mean that someone who wants a well bred, pure bred cat is to blame.
In fact, one has nothing to do with the other.

--
Lynne

sheelagh
March 4th 07, 03:26 AM
On 4 Mar, 01:14, Lynne > wrote:
> on Sat, 03 Mar 2007 21:36:32 GMT, "-L." > wrote:
>
> > Ditto what cybercat said. Buying an animal is ridiculous when
> > thousands are killed daily for lack of homes. (God I hate
> > breeders...and the people who support them...)
>
> Breeders in general are not the problem. GOOD breeders who breed very
> selectively in order to protect the breed standard, who require that all
> kittens are spayed or neutered, and who take responsibility for the entire
> life of those kittens are NOT the problem. People who buy from these GOOD
> breeders are NOT the problem. Kitten mills and backyard breeders ARE the
> problem, and people who buy from them ARE the problem. People who fail to
> spay or neuter their cats, like our very own resident dumbass Barry, are an
> even larger part of the problem. And certainly people who abandon their
> cats are a major part of the problem.
>
> Yes there are a mind numbingly large number of cats in shelters, but that
> doesn't mean that someone who wants a well bred, pure bred cat is to blame.
> In fact, one has nothing to do with the other.
>
> --
> Lynne

> Quote: Who says Usenet can't change minds? :)

> After a few months of listening to other peoples point of view, & some
> of the stories that I have heard on here, I have taken the decision
> not to breed our Birmans or Ragdolls



If you ever doubt you made the right decision, click on the link
below.

*************WARNING EXPLICIT IMAGE TO SHARE*******************
--
Don't breed or buy while shelter cats die.
http://maxshouse.com/heartache.JPG

I agree with both of you;both L & Lynne too.
However, there are kitten farms out there, & some breeders do tell
you what they think that you want to hear.....
It is disgusting, but true.....

I had already decided that I was going to give up breeding, & the link
gave you my final reason for giving up. That image will stay @ the
fore of my brain, till the day that I die.

The worst thing, is that it doesn't matter what you offer to someone
who has decided that they want a pedigree cat, because their mind is
already made up. No amount of talking to them, will stop them from
having that *special Kitty* either.

The best that you can do, is to suggest that sometimes it is also an
option of finding room in your hearts to add another dimension &
person to be a slave to.ie: a shelter kitty that will love her to
bits & show the pedigree's how it's all done.... I find that this does
work & bares good fruit for both slave & slave drivers too. Both pet
cat & owner win; an all win situation.
Another point that we haven't covered here, is that even pedigree's
need saving sometimes too. They need exactly the same safe homes that
we all would prefer our shelter cats to have good homes. Here is one
of them below...

http://www.ukrcc.co.uk/rehome.shtml
I wish that we could all take in just one cat & make the world a
better place. I have 7 of them currently, & 2 of them are really
huffy, puffy, alley cats, & we love them dearly.
I have done what I felt was best for my breeding program, & abandoned
it. It is only a very small gesture, but it will allow another 12ish
kittens a chance from somewhere else.
But as I said earlier.. If someone wants am pedigree cat, then there
is no talking them out of it, only a single chance to appeal for what
is best for the kittens & also a possible shelter role model kitty...
S;o)

-L.
March 4th 07, 08:54 AM
Lynne wrote:
> on Sat, 03 Mar 2007 21:36:32 GMT, "-L." > wrote:
>
> > Ditto what cybercat said. Buying an animal is ridiculous when
> > thousands are killed daily for lack of homes. (God I hate
> > breeders...and the people who support them...)
>
> Breeders in general are not the problem. GOOD breeders who breed very
> selectively in order to protect the breed standard, who require that all
> kittens are spayed or neutered, and who take responsibility for the entire
> life of those kittens are NOT the problem. People who buy from these GOOD
> breeders are NOT the problem.

They are all the problem. Every kitten prioduced is one more kitten
killed. There are only X number of homes for x number of animals. ANY
breeding is bad breeding. If purebreeds weren't available people
would be forced to take the moggies.

-L.

Barry
March 4th 07, 11:35 AM
On Mar 3, 4:36 pm, "-L." > wrote:
> cybercat wrote:

> Ditto what cybercat said. Buying an animal is ridiculous when
> thousands are killed daily for lack of homes. (God I hate
> breeders...and the people who support them...)

You're ignorant

Barry
March 4th 07, 12:00 PM
On Mar 3, 4:36 pm, "-L." > wrote:
> cybercat wrote:

> Ditto what cybercat said. Buying an animal is ridiculous when
> thousands are killed daily for lack of homes. (God I hate
> breeders...and the people who support them...)


You are ignorant to hate someone who does something out of ignorance.

For example, I don't hate you -L. for hating people who breed cats.

You make a vile comment about a human... one who far as they know,
have done nothing wrong; you just hate them.

I do hate your hate, but no you.

I may hate what someone has done, (support a breeder)... but I am
never entitled to hate that person.

You have stooped to an all time low.

Lynne
March 4th 07, 03:48 PM
on Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:54:23 GMT, "-L." > wrote:

> They are all the problem. Every kitten prioduced is one more kitten
> killed. There are only X number of homes for x number of animals. ANY
> breeding is bad breeding. If purebreeds weren't available people
> would be forced to take the moggies.

Ah, well, you and I disagree on this point. I feel very strongly that
the pure breeds need to be protected. That is only going to be done
properly by ethical breeders. These breeders, BTW, generally only have a
couple of litters per year (whereas BYB and Mills pump them out at insane
rates, with no health testing, and they will never stop).

I don't purchase purebred cats--my 2 are both from feral colonies--but
I'd hate to see the well bred purebreeds disappear. I also do not agree
that these selective breeders are contributing to the problem since their
kittens are under spay/neuter contracts. Would you have those people
seeking purebred kittens go instead to the BYBs or Mills (via pet shops)?
If that happens, there will be MORE unwanted kittens, because these
people who want purebreed kittens will get them. If they are not under
spay/neuter contracts, they will probably become BYBs for at least one
litter... and for all the typical dumbass reasons, including accidental
pairings.

Without ethical breeders who educate the people who purchase their
kittens, I just see the problem getting worse.

--
Lynne

Barry
March 4th 07, 04:12 PM
On Mar 4, 9:48 am, Lynne > wrote:

> Without ethical breeders who educate the people who purchase their
> kittens, I just see the problem getting worse.


of ****, now we got you setting as... get this..

A JUDGE
A PALM-READER
A DUMMY ON MY LET (VINTRILIQUIST)
A HYPOCRITE (GO AHEAD, ASK ME I DARE YA)

WHAT ELSE YOU GOT FOR US LYNNE

Is there anything good for me?

Barry
March 4th 07, 04:14 PM
On Mar 3, 12:30 pm, wrote:
I doubt she'd tell me if this wasn't the case. ;)
>
> Any advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!


WHATEVER YOU GET JUST BE SURE TO DESEX THEM

IF NOT...

BE RESPONSIBLE WITH THE LITTER

one loose cat can invent a lot of suffering.

OTHERWISE...

LYNNE WILL KNOW WETHER YOU'VE BEEN NAUGHTY OR NICE

IT'S HER GIFT FROM THE DARK-SIDE

SHE'S GOT A WART ON HER CRUSTY PINKY TOE
AND ON HER WAX LIPS, SHE PUTS LIPSTICK ON THE WART TOO WOO WOO

Sherry
March 4th 07, 04:29 PM
On Mar 3, 11:30?am, wrote:
The breeder is very sweet and she
> seems to take VERY good care of her cats (she lives 12 hours away so
> I can't visit), and isn't releasing him to me until he is 13 weeks
> old.

snipped

First off I agree with what everybody else is saying about not buying
from breeders. BUT, if you're going to do it anyway, PLEASE don't buy
from one unless you physically visit the place. "Seems to" take very
good care of her cats isn't good enough. All kitten-millers know the
drill and the right things to say over the phone. I seriously hope
you're actually going to pick the kitten up at the breeder's house. If
a breeder discourages you from visiting their cattery in person, do
NOT consider buying from her.

Sherry

Lynne
March 4th 07, 04:34 PM
on Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:29:42 GMT, "Sherry" > wrote:

> First off I agree with what everybody else is saying about not buying
> from breeders. BUT, if you're going to do it anyway, PLEASE don't buy
> from one unless you physically visit the place. "Seems to" take very
> good care of her cats isn't good enough. All kitten-millers know the
> drill and the right things to say over the phone. I seriously hope
> you're actually going to pick the kitten up at the breeder's house. If
> a breeder discourages you from visiting their cattery in person, do
> NOT consider buying from her.

Excellent advice. If the "breeder" is a miller, the kitten will likely
have a host of health and behavioral as well as socialization problems.
Not only that, but buying from these people directly supports the tragedy
of over-population.

Any breeder who will sell to someone sight-unseen raises a lot of red flags
in my mind...

--
Lynne

Rhonda
March 4th 07, 06:36 PM
Lynne wrote:

> Ah, well, you and I disagree on this point. I feel very strongly that
> the pure breeds need to be protected.

I'm curious as to why you think that, Lynne.

Personally, I would be happy if they all were moggies, just like us
humans. There would still be different colors and variety. I would love
to see the genes diluted enough so that cats are healthier.

Humans made and planned each domestic breed, I think that was
high-handed and arrogant of us to do to another species. We have
designed breeds to our own liking.

Drives me crazy with dogs, too. We've designed bull-dogs with faces
squished so much that the dogs can hardly breathe.

Now I'd better back away from the computer...


Rhonda

cybercat
March 4th 07, 07:18 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Lynne wrote:
>
>> Ah, well, you and I disagree on this point. I feel very strongly that
>> the pure breeds need to be protected.
>
> I'm curious as to why you think that, Lynne.
>
> Personally, I would be happy if they all were moggies, just like us
> humans. There would still be different colors and variety. I would love to
> see the genes diluted enough so that cats are healthier.
>
> Humans made and planned each domestic breed, I think that was high-handed
> and arrogant of us to do to another species. We have designed breeds to
> our own liking.
>
> Drives me crazy with dogs, too. We've designed bull-dogs with faces
> squished so much that the dogs can hardly breathe.
>
> Now I'd better back away from the computer...
>
>

Oh no you hadn't. Very nicely put, and you stayed calm, rational,
and mature while you said it. Excellent.

I agree with this poast. :D

Gail Futoran
March 4th 07, 07:42 PM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> on Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:29:42 GMT, "Sherry" > wrote:
>
>> First off I agree with what everybody else is saying about not
>> buying
>> from breeders. BUT, if you're going to do it anyway, PLEASE don't
>> buy
>> from one unless you physically visit the place. "Seems to" take
>> very
>> good care of her cats isn't good enough. All kitten-millers know
>> the
>> drill and the right things to say over the phone. I seriously hope
>> you're actually going to pick the kitten up at the breeder's house.
>> If
>> a breeder discourages you from visiting their cattery in person, do
>> NOT consider buying from her.
>
> Excellent advice. If the "breeder" is a miller, the kitten will
> likely
> have a host of health and behavioral as well as socialization
> problems.
> Not only that, but buying from these people directly supports the
> tragedy
> of over-population.
>
> Any breeder who will sell to someone sight-unseen raises a lot of
> red flags
> in my mind...
>
> --
> Lynne

I agree with a lot of what Lynne has written
in this thread.

Unfortunately, even breeders whom you
visit cannot always be trusted. I purchased
two Burmese from a breeder several years
ago after visiting her home twice. Cats
and kittens looked healthy and acted well
adjusted, the home was clean and nice
smelling, there was a written guarantee.

I brought two kittens home, took them to my
vet for their first checkup - both were FeLV+.
Turns out this "careful" breeder brought a
stud into her cattery without testing him, and
he spread FeLV throughout two litters. If
not for me notifying her immediately, she
might have passed FeLV+ kittens onto even
more customers. My two kittens died of
lymphoma a year after I got them despite all
my vet and I could do for them. Breeder
refund? What's that? Don't ask. She wanted
me to take *UNTESTED* replacement kittens
and I wouldn't take them.

I currently have 6 cats - two Tonkinese
(different and more ethical breeder than the
Burmese breeder), two former neighborhood
strays, and two feral cat organization rescues,
i.e. 4/6 moggies. All spayed/neutered,
vaccinated, annual checkups, etc. The moggies
treated no differently than the purebreds. I
refuse to apologize for my love of few
purebreds I've had.

Gail F.
In memory of Alyx, my first Burmese
and the best cat ever

cybercat
March 4th 07, 08:14 PM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> on Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:54:23 GMT, "-L." > wrote:
>
>> They are all the problem. Every kitten prioduced is one more kitten
>> killed. There are only X number of homes for x number of animals. ANY
>> breeding is bad breeding. If purebreeds weren't available people
>> would be forced to take the moggies.
>
> Ah, well, you and I disagree on this point. I feel very strongly that
> the pure breeds need to be protected.

I really don't think there is any danger of breeding being outlawed.

The greater danger is to the millions of normal cats who will die for lack
of homes.

Lynne
March 4th 07, 08:34 PM
on Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:36:26 GMT, Rhonda > wrote:

> I'm curious as to why you think that, Lynne.
>
> Personally, I would be happy if they all were moggies, just like us
> humans. There would still be different colors and variety. I would love
> to see the genes diluted enough so that cats are healthier.
>
> Humans made and planned each domestic breed, I think that was
> high-handed and arrogant of us to do to another species. We have
> designed breeds to our own liking.
>
> Drives me crazy with dogs, too. We've designed bull-dogs with faces
> squished so much that the dogs can hardly breathe.
>
> Now I'd better back away from the computer...

I am a pragmatic person. Purebreeds exist and have for a very long time.
Debating the morality of that is pointless. The sad reality is that
kitten mills are not going away. Nor are backyard breeders or families
who think their precious pet absolutely must be bred. *gag* The desire
for "purebreeds" is also not going away, like it or not. I feel that the
only way to truly protect the breed standards that already exist and that
will continue to be in demand is through very careful breeding by ethical
breeders who educate the public about responsible pet ownership and who
take responsibility for the kittens they produce for the life of those
animals. Each kitten purchased from an ethical breeder is one less that
supports mills and BYBs, and one less that will go on to breed.

As to the health issues you mention, unless breeding stock is extensively
health tested--and only the most responsible breeders do this because
it's EXPENSIVE (and good breeders aren't in it to make money)--there are
NO guarantees that 'moggies' are going to be healthier than well bred
purebreeds. With domestic cats, good vet care levels the playing field
and the resulting survival rates between the fittest and sickly, so both
groups procreate and propagate their genes, good and bad. It's a
crapshoot, healthwise. Plenty of moggies have heart defects and other
congenital and inherited health problems. We read about them frequently
on this ng.

Unless cat shows and cat magazines and books, etc. are eliminated (fat
chance), pure breeds will continue to be desireable as pets. So I am
voicing my support for ETHICAL, responsible breeders who protect the
breed standards and who, IMO, do not in any way contribute to the over
population problem. I do believe if such breeders were to stop breeding,
the problems would get worse, for reasons I've already stated in this
thread.

Good breeders and the people who patronize them are not part of this
enormous overpopulation problem. I'm not sure if I can explain it any
better than I have already tried. Some people insist on lumping BYBs,
Mills and good breeders into the same evil category, and I think it's
short sighted to do that.

That said, I'd personally rather have a moggie any day (and I have two).
I also detest breeders who are in it for money. They make me physically
ill.

--
Lynne

Lynne
March 4th 07, 08:38 PM
on Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:14:53 GMT, "cybercat" > wrote:

> I really don't think there is any danger of breeding being outlawed.

I don't see why the effin' mills are allowed to continue, though... $%#@!!

--
Lynne

sheelagh
March 4th 07, 08:41 PM
On 4 Mar, 18:18, "cybercat" > wrote:
> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
Gosh....
This is a tricky one...
> > Lynne wrote:
>
> >> Ah, well, you and I disagree on this point. I feel very strongly that
> >> the pure breeds need to be protected.

I understand what you mean Lynne, & having bred cats myself, I can see
your view point. You made a very valid point here Lynne

It would be wrong of me to say that some breeds are ok, but others are
not, so I won't.

But It is clear for all to see that some breeds have been too over
bred.
For instance, take the Persian cat,.. it has the same breathing
problems that a Bull dog has, but you can't single that breed out &
say, "OK, we have over bred the Persian, so no one can breed them
anymore", because it would simply go underground, rather like the
American Pit bull terrier, in the UK has.

Having said that, because of over breeding, all Persians and variants
are now all prone to PKD, & breathing problems, not to mention their
coats, & the care that is required to keep it from simply matting.

This in my view has gone too far, to the detriment of the breed & the
cats, because they are incapable of caring for their coats alone..
This is our doing, & it is wrong. (In my view alone)
> > I'm curious as to why you think that, Lynne.
>
> > Personally, I would be happy if they all were moggies, just like us
> > humans. There would still be different colors and variety. I would love to
> > see the genes diluted enough so that cats are healthier.
I love all manner of cats, & particularly Moggies...But I own some
pedigree cats too, & wouldn't swap them for the world or say that I am
sorry for owning one.....because it would be a lie!!

With regard to breeding out of the pedigrees & into Moggies...

But wouldn't this bring us back to breeding again?
And, would it be a good thing to out breed the problems that we have
made for the cats to cope with? (ie: PKD & matting coats)?
This is just a thought btw!

> > Humans made and planned each domestic breed, I think that was high-handed
> > and arrogant of us to do to another species. We have designed breeds to
> > our own liking.

Precisely...

I couldn't have put it better myself...
I think it was more than arrogant of us as a species to mess around
with another just for the pleasure of looking @ them & liking them...

> > Drives me crazy with dogs, too. We've designed bull-dogs with faces
> > squished so much that the dogs can hardly breathe.

I have no dogs, so I really can not comment on this.

> > Now I'd better back away from the computer...

I feel very nervous about posting this, but we all have opinions, & it
is up to us to debate them without the need to fall out over it...

> Oh no you hadn't. Very nicely put, and you stayed calm, rational,
> and mature while you said it. Excellent.
>
> I agree with this poast. :D- Hide quoted text -

I think that you expressed yourself very well too, in a calm &
collected manner, & with the gumption to express your true feelings
about it without raised hackles and bad feeling. Excellent!

To go back to the posters questions, which was Advice Please?

I feel that I was too rushed in my last posting to answer her question
properly.

Never buy a kitten from someone that hasn't come personally
recommended buy another purchaser, who is pleased with their kitten.

Always ask to see their breeding licence.

Never part with your money (or even a deposit!!) until you have
visited the cattery, seen the kitten & you are happy with the kittens
surroundings & the breeder too, @ least several times....

Always ask to see both parents, & never choose a breeder that does not
come recommended by the regulating body of that breed.

(ie: over in the UK, that would be the Gccf & also the Bengal breeders
society, where everyone knows one another, & there are penalties for
those who do not adhere to the rules of breeding).

Furthermore, any breeder who is worth her salt(or his), would be more
than interested in knowing where their precious kitten is going to
after they leave mummy.
I "never" let one of mine go without home visiting.. you can pick up a
lot of information, even if you are expected.....

A breeder who only allows their queen to have that one litter a year,
will not allow that kitten to go until they are satisfied that you are
good enough for their kitten.
I would never have parted with one of my baby's without seeing where
they would be living, & who with too.

And finally, If you must have a kitten of a particular breed, do your
homework first, Please....?

IF, all of the above all check out, then you are talking to a breeder
who cares about her kittens.
And if that is the case, you will know whether that breeder is good
enough to sell you a kitten, & if they care about their kitten, you
will know, Instantly....!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope that you do choose the right breeder, because the entire life
of your kitten is pretty well mapped out by the breeder that allowed
that kitten life. So look for someone who is good enough to breed your
kitten.
Good Luck
S;o)

Charlie Wilkes
March 4th 07, 09:31 PM
On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 09:30:17 -0800, LeslieMcFarland wrote:

> Good morning, everbody! I have been on a quest to find a new Bengal
> kitten to "entertain" my resident 4 year old [spayed] Bengal girl and I
> have a male silver spotted Bengal

All this high-handed sermonizing kind of takes the fun out of everything,
doesn't it?

Good luck with your new kitten.

Charlie

Barry
March 5th 07, 12:07 AM
On Mar 4, 12:36 pm, Rhonda > wrote:

> Now I'd better back away from the computer...

I find it very interesting learning how different breeds developed.

I don't know squat about cats, but a little about doggie breeds.

In most cases I've read, the breed was developed for a specific
purpose.

It's easy to see how cat population is what it is...

For the life of me, I don't know why we need to house cats at
shelters.

OF COURSE they deserve the love they deserve, everyone is worthy of
the best... no question.. but it's not working. That's my only
contention, it's not working.

Educating the public could help, but still wouldn't solve the current
problem, not for some time.

I want to start a thread about guilt. I don't know how to say what I
am feeling.

Think about how many people grab up a pet out of sheer.. "poor poor
thing" but they don't know the real cost involved, not just money, but
the lifetime committment part.

These type of people are part of the big problem

Is there anyone in this group who doles out guilt? YOU BET

It's a human problem. It has it's root in weakness, not nobility.

I'm going to back away from the computer now.

Barry

cybercat
March 5th 07, 12:48 AM
"Barry" > wrote
>
> OF COURSE they deserve the love they deserve, everyone is worthy of
> the best... no question.. but it's not working. That's my only
> contention, it's not working.
>


Gracie says it is.

Barry
March 5th 07, 01:49 AM
On Mar 4, 6:48 pm, "cybercat" > wrote:

> Gracie says it is.

I stand corrected

cybercat
March 5th 07, 02:03 AM
"Barry" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 4, 6:48 pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
>> Gracie says it is.
>
> I stand corrected
>

You wanna swat me like a bug don't you?

:D

Barry[_2_]
March 5th 07, 03:00 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Barry" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Mar 4, 6:48 pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
>>
>>> Gracie says it is.
>>
>> I stand corrected
>>
>
> You wanna swat me like a bug don't you?
>
> :D

Heck no Cyber

You make an excellent point.

Lis
March 5th 07, 07:21 PM
On Mar 3, 12:30 pm, wrote:
> Good morning, everbody! I have been on a quest to find a new Bengal
> kitten to "entertain" my resident 4 year old [spayed] Bengal girl and
> I have a male silver spotted Bengal
> coming my way on March 13th. The breeder is very sweet and she
> seems to take VERY good care of her cats (she lives 12 hours away so
> I can't visit), and isn't releasing him to me until he is 13 weeks
> old. (I got my girl, Tina, 4 years ago when she was 9 or 10 weeks,
> though..)
>
> Anyway, Tina doesn't like to be held, although she is very
> affectionate and likes attention. When I was handling her as a
> kitten, I would always put her down when she started to squirm so
> that she wouldn't think I was a mean monster. I realize that her
> squirmyness is probably her personality, but since I have a "clean
> slate" arriving in a couple weeks, I wanted to get some advice from
> the experts!
>
> Should I continue to hold him, even if he squirms, to get him used
> to the idea? Is there anything "special" I can do to help him
> embrace a cuddly side (to the extent that his Bengal personality will
> allow)?
>
> The breeder says that he likes to be held and that he's very cuddly,
> but I doubt she'd tell me if this wasn't the case. ;)
>
> Any advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!
>
> Leslie

A responsible breeder wants to match the kitten to the home and the
person it's going to, so that it's a successful match and a good home
for the cat. If you truly believe that the breeder would tell you what
you want to hear instead of the truth, you should be looking elsewhere
for your new cat.

Also, one of the reasons to go with purebred rather than a shelter cat
is the greater predictability of temperament. I don't know much about
Bengals, but are you asking for something that isn't very likely. If
they're not in general inclined to be cuddly, again, you may be
looking in the wrong place for your new cat.

Lis

Lis
March 5th 07, 07:40 PM
On Mar 3, 4:36 pm, "-L." > wrote:
> cybercat wrote:
>
> > > Any advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!
>
> > Don't buy from breeders when there are lovely affectionate cats dying all
> > over the place in huge numbers for lack of homes.
>
> Ditto what cybercat said. Buying an animal is ridiculous when
> thousands are killed daily for lack of homes. (God I hate
> breeders...and the people who support them...)
>
> -L.

It's not responsible breeders who are at fault for the many thousands
of abandoned, homeless, and abused animals in shelters; it's the
people who abandoned them, or didn't spay/neuter their pets and then
couldn't cope with the litter that resulted, etc. It's the kitten and
puppy mills, the backyard breeders, the pet stores for whom dogs and
cats are just so much merchandise to be moved.

I've had wonderful pets from shelters, and I've had wonderful pets
from breeders. I've even had two wonderful cats from another client of
my vet at the time--mama cat was so tiny that they wanted to put off
spaying until she was a little larger, and in the interim she went
into heat, slipped out the door, and got pregnant. (I took two of the
kittens.) And each was the right choice for me at the time--a
different cat or dog would not have been the right choice at that
time.

And in the cases where I got a cat or dog from a breeder, the breeder
has been available, even years later, to answer questions and help
solve problems.

I wouldn't for the world have missed out on any of the wonderful cats
I've had from shelters, but that doesn't mean that's the only right
place to find a cat.

(And having said all that, yes, I do wonder if Leslie might, in this
case, be better off going to a shelter, and finding a shelter kitty
who'll be grateful for a warm, dry home.)

Lis

Barry
March 5th 07, 09:47 PM
On Mar 5, 1:40 pm, "Lis" > wrote:

> (And having said all that, yes, I do wonder if Leslie might, in this
> case, be better off going to a shelter, and finding a shelter kitty
> who'll be grateful for a warm, dry home.)
>
> Lis

Good point.

Barry
March 5th 07, 09:51 PM
On Mar 5, 3:47 pm, "Barry" > wrote:

> Good point.

Sorta

So she gets a shelter cat, and some lamo gets the pet store cat...

Which cat needs a responsible adult?

So it really is as long as it is wide

Can't we just close the kitten factory? Make a law?

Then all you (if your female) .. all you caring women can focus your
energy on other things that interest you.

Barry

That's not a slam... It is a crime that we cannot nip this whole thing
in the bud.

zinzee
March 5th 07, 10:53 PM
On Mar 4, 10:29 am, "Sherry" > wrote:
> On Mar 3, 11:30?am, wrote:
> The breeder is very sweet and she
>
> > seems to take VERY good care of her cats (she lives 12 hours away so
> > I can't visit), and isn't releasing him to me until he is 13 weeks
> > old.
>
> snipped
>
> First off I agree with what everybody else is saying about not buying
> from breeders. BUT, if you're going to do it anyway, PLEASE don't buy
> from one unless you physically visit the place. "Seems to" take very
> good care of her cats isn't good enough. All kitten-millers know the
> drill and the right things to say over the phone. I seriously hope
> you're actually going to pick the kitten up at the breeder's house. If
> a breeder discourages you from visiting their cattery in person, do
> NOT consider buying from her.
>
> Sherry

Yes, and be cautious of breeders that are willing to meet you 'half
way'. I personally do not have any purebreds, but my sister, who
lives in Northern California, does own a Shiba Inu named Hailey. This
is actually her second. The first one she purchased was named Zoey
and the breeder came down from Oregon to meet her with the dog. My
entire family has a great love for animals: purebred, feral, and we've
even fostered numerous cats and dogs over the years.

Imagine my sister's heartache when Zoey got sick and wasn't growing
due to all of the infections she was fighting. Thousands and
thousands of dollars in vet bills later, Zoey finally passed, and it
broke my sister's heart. She had zero experience in getting a
purebred and therefore, as she admits, did not do the proper research
prior to going down this route. Afterwards, she found out that these
people had a horrible reputation. Of course, she could never get in
contact with them afterwards. Unfortunately, because they were
located in a different state, there was little my sister could do to
find their true location as well as take any legal recourse.

Before purchasing her second Shiba, my sister did her homework, and
then some. Now she is more knowledgeable in the breed than I care to
admit or hear about at times.

My point is, go to the breeders house! See where the cat is being
kept! At the very least the mother should be on site, and don't be
afraid to ask to see the papers!. They should also always provide
pictures of the father. If you go to the breeders home and have any
reservations for any reason, DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH IT!

Best,
Heather

Lis
March 5th 07, 11:22 PM
On Mar 5, 3:51 pm, "Barry" > wrote:
> On Mar 5, 3:47 pm, "Barry" > wrote:
>
> > Good point.
>
> Sorta
>
> So she gets a shelter cat, and some lamo gets the pet store cat...
>
> Which cat needs a responsible adult?
>
> So it really is as long as it is wide
>
> Can't we just close the kitten factory? Make a law?
>
> Then all you (if your female) .. all you caring women can focus your
> energy on other things that interest you.
>
> Barry
>
> That's not a slam... It is a crime that we cannot nip this whole thing
> in the bud.


I'd love to see the kitten mills and puppy mills closed; so would most
other people who are aware of them. Unfortunately, so far no one's
managed to write a law that closes the mills without creating large
burdens for responsible breeders who breed, at most, 1-3 litters a
year, are careful about genetics and about proper socialization, are
careful who they place those kittens or puppies with, and maintain a
lifetime commitment to those puppies or kittens, after they're placed.
These people aren't in it for the money; they're at best breaking even
on something they do because they love their breed. As hard as some
people here find it to accept the fact, these people are NOT the
problem.

But the principal outlet for the mills, pet stores, could be banned
from selling animals. And a good push for that could probably get the
support of some of the major pet supply store chains--PetCo and
PetSmart already don't sell dogs and cats, and actively support rescue/
adoption. That wouldn't cut off newspaper ads and internet sales, but
the pet stores are where they make the volume sales, and losing that
outlet would have to hurt.

Lis

Lis
March 5th 07, 11:29 PM
On Mar 5, 4:53 pm, "zinzee" > wrote:
> On Mar 4, 10:29 am, "Sherry" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 3, 11:30?am, wrote:
> > The breeder is very sweet and she
>
> > > seems to take VERY good care of her cats (she lives 12 hours away so
> > > I can't visit), and isn't releasing him to me until he is 13 weeks
> > > old.
>
> > snipped
>
> > First off I agree with what everybody else is saying about not buying
> > from breeders. BUT, if you're going to do it anyway, PLEASE don't buy
> > from one unless you physically visit the place. "Seems to" take very
> > good care of her cats isn't good enough. All kitten-millers know the
> > drill and the right things to say over the phone. I seriously hope
> > you're actually going to pick the kitten up at the breeder's house. If
> > a breeder discourages you from visiting their cattery in person, do
> > NOT consider buying from her.
>
> > Sherry
>
> Yes, and be cautious of breeders that are willing to meet you 'half
> way'. I personally do not have any purebreds, but my sister, who
> lives in Northern California, does own a Shiba Inu named Hailey. This
> is actually her second. The first one she purchased was named Zoey
> and the breeder came down from Oregon to meet her with the dog. My
> entire family has a great love for animals: purebred, feral, and we've
> even fostered numerous cats and dogs over the years.
>
> Imagine my sister's heartache when Zoey got sick and wasn't growing
> due to all of the infections she was fighting. Thousands and
> thousands of dollars in vet bills later, Zoey finally passed, and it
> broke my sister's heart. She had zero experience in getting a
> purebred and therefore, as she admits, did not do the proper research
> prior to going down this route. Afterwards, she found out that these
> people had a horrible reputation. Of course, she could never get in
> contact with them afterwards. Unfortunately, because they were
> located in a different state, there was little my sister could do to
> find their true location as well as take any legal recourse.
>
> Before purchasing her second Shiba, my sister did her homework, and
> then some. Now she is more knowledgeable in the breed than I care to
> admit or hear about at times.
>
> My point is, go to the breeders house! See where the cat is being
> kept! At the very least the mother should be on site, and don't be
> afraid to ask to see the papers!. They should also always provide
> pictures of the father. If you go to the breeders home and have any
> reservations for any reason, DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH IT!
>
> Best,
> Heather- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Also ask lots of questions about father, mother, and their parents.
Responsible breeders love to talk about their animals; the problem
should be getting them to shut up about them for a few seconds. Make
sure you know what health problems are common in the breed, ask what
health testing the breeder has done, ask to see certificates, vet
reports, whatever's appropriate. The good breeders will like that in a
potential buyer of one of their little ones. If they get offended and
huffy, you want to run away. Far away. Quickly.

Lis

sheelagh
March 6th 07, 02:54 PM
On 5 Mar, 22:22, "Lis" > wrote:
> On Mar 5, 3:51 pm, "Barry" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 3:47 pm, "Barry" > wrote:
>
> > > Good point.
>
> > Sorta
>
> > So she gets a shelter cat, and some lamo gets the pet store cat...
>
> > Which cat needs a responsible adult?
>
> > So it really is as long as it is wide
>
> > Can't we just close the kitten factory? Make a law?
>
> > Then all you (if your female) .. all you caring women can focus your
> > energy on other things that interest you.
>
> > Barry
>
> > That's not a slam... It is a crime that we cannot nip this whole thing
> > in the bud.
>
> I'd love to see the kitten mills and puppy mills closed; so would most
> other people who are aware of them. Unfortunately, so far no one's
> managed to write a law that closes the mills without creating large
> burdens for responsible breeders who breed, at most, 1-3 litters a
> year, are careful about genetics and about proper socialization, are
> careful who they place those kittens or puppies with, and maintain a
> lifetime commitment to those puppies or kittens, after they're placed.
> These people aren't in it for the money; they're at best breaking even
> on something they do because they love their breed. As hard as some
> people here find it to accept the fact, these people are NOT the
> problem.
>
> But the principal outlet for the mills, pet stores, could be banned
> from selling animals. And a good push for that could probably get the
> support of some of the major pet supply store chains--PetCo and
> PetSmart already don't sell dogs and cats, and actively support rescue/
> adoption. That wouldn't cut off newspaper ads and internet sales, but
> the pet stores are where they make the volume sales, and losing that
> outlet would have to hurt.
>
> Lis-

One of the reasons that I gave up breeding was because I couldn't
compete with kitten mills as you call them.(we call them kitten
farms).

The expense of inoculating the kittens, vet checking them, & caring
for your cats in general does not come in to play with kitten farms.
They don't check their queens regularly with bloods & full health
checks, nor their stud cats either. It is not a concern to them
because once that kitten hits 10ish weeks, it is off out that door,
never to be thought about again.

I have spent untold amounts of money making sure that mine do get that
care, but in the end, it is up to the purchaser to choose the
breeder.
I have advertised in appropriate places, but @ the end of the day, it
is the client that chooses the breeder.
We have to rely on our good names within the breeding world, & also on
people who have seen our kittens & admired their appearance, sweet
natures & good health.
The kitten itself, speaks volumes about the breeder

People buying a pedigree kitten for the first time, don't know any
better. All they can see is the price, & they seem to go for the
cheaper end of the market... & that would be the kitten farms, with
whom I was trying to compete, & I simply couldn't!
I think it is education that we need rather than laws.

I am not saying that I don't agree with outlawing the practice, I am
saying that if you do, it will simply go underground.
Some people truely think that laws are made to be broken....

If people really knew how kitten farms were run, the would run
themselves, in the opposite direction. So we should educate people on
the dangers of buying from kitten farms.(rather like we have done with
smoking over the last few years).
If you educate people to know better, then they have the choice of
choosing the right kitten.
all of the advice that I have seen so far makes good sense, & by far
the most moving story I have heard is that of Gail's cats. It is a
typical history presented to vets all the time.
I realise that the pedigree kitten that you might want costs that
little bit more... but if you are intent, & not to be dissuaded, Pay
that little bit extra for the kitten you want, knowing that it has had
all of the tests that you would expect to be done.
And NEVER be frightened to ask to see the paperwork involved. Any
breeder who is genuine, won't mind showing you vaccine certificates,
vet bills associated.
In fact, please don't take what is said @ face value...Check for
yourself.

Never buy a kitten from someone that hasn't come personally
recommended buy another purchaser, who is pleased with their kitten.


Always ask to see their breeding licence.


Never part with your money (or even a deposit!!) until you have
visited the cattery, seen the kitten & you are happy with the kittens
surroundings & the breeder too, @ least several times....


Always ask to see both parents, & never choose a breeder that does
not
come recommended by the regulating body of that breed.


(ie: over in the UK, that would be the Gccf & also the Bengal
breeders
society, where everyone knows one another, & there are penalties for
those who do not adhere to the rules of breeding).


Furthermore, any breeder who is worth her salt(or his), would be more
than interested in knowing where their precious kitten is going to
after they leave mummy.
I "never" let one of mine go without home visiting.. you can pick up
a
lot of information, even if you are expected.....


A breeder who only allows their queen to have that one litter a year,
will not allow that kitten to go until they are satisfied that you
are
good enough for their kitten.
I would never have parted with one of my baby's without seeing where
they would be living, & who with too.


And finally, If you must have a kitten of a particular breed, do your
homework first, Please....?


IF, all of the above all check out, then you are talking to a breeder
who cares about her kittens.

And if that is the case, you will know whether that breeder is good
enough to sell you a kitten.
If they care about their kitten, you
will know, Instantly....!!!!!!!!!!!
S;o)

Lis
March 6th 07, 04:41 PM
On Mar 6, 8:54 am, "sheelagh" > wrote:
> On 5 Mar, 22:22, "Lis" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 3:51 pm, "Barry" > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 5, 3:47 pm, "Barry" > wrote:
>
> > > > Good point.
>
> > > Sorta
>
> > > So she gets a shelter cat, and some lamo gets the pet store cat...
>
> > > Which cat needs a responsible adult?
>
> > > So it really is as long as it is wide
>
> > > Can't we just close the kitten factory? Make a law?
>
> > > Then all you (if your female) .. all you caring women can focus your
> > > energy on other things that interest you.
>
> > > Barry
>
> > > That's not a slam... It is a crime that we cannot nip this whole thing
> > > in the bud.
>
> > I'd love to see the kitten mills and puppy mills closed; so would most
> > other people who are aware of them. Unfortunately, so far no one's
> > managed to write a law that closes the mills without creating large
> > burdens for responsible breeders who breed, at most, 1-3 litters a
> > year, are careful about genetics and about proper socialization, are
> > careful who they place those kittens or puppies with, and maintain a
> > lifetime commitment to those puppies or kittens, after they're placed.
> > These people aren't in it for the money; they're at best breaking even
> > on something they do because they love their breed. As hard as some
> > people here find it to accept the fact, these people are NOT the
> > problem.
>
> > But the principal outlet for the mills, pet stores, could be banned
> > from selling animals. And a good push for that could probably get the
> > support of some of the major pet supply store chains--PetCo and
> > PetSmart already don't sell dogs and cats, and actively support rescue/
> > adoption. That wouldn't cut off newspaper ads and internet sales, but
> > the pet stores are where they make the volume sales, and losing that
> > outlet would have to hurt.
>
> > Lis-
>
> One of the reasons that I gave up breeding was because I couldn't
> compete with kitten mills as you call them.(we call them kitten
> farms).
>
> The expense of inoculating the kittens, vet checking them, & caring
> for your cats in general does not come in to play with kitten farms.
> They don't check their queens regularly with bloods & full health
> checks, nor their stud cats either. It is not a concern to them
> because once that kitten hits 10ish weeks, it is off out that door,
> never to be thought about again.

Sadly, I think 10 weeks is optimistic. The most marketable period for
both kittens and puppies is 8-12 weeks; they want them in the pet
stores by then. They're being taken from their mothers at 6 weeks, or
younger.

> I have spent untold amounts of money making sure that mine do get that
> care, but in the end, it is up to the purchaser to choose the
> breeder.
> I have advertised in appropriate places, but @ the end of the day, it
> is the client that chooses the breeder.
> We have to rely on our good names within the breeding world, & also on
> people who have seen our kittens & admired their appearance, sweet
> natures & good health.
> The kitten itself, speaks volumes about the breeder

People think, "I don't want a show cat (or dog); I just want a pet."
They don't understand that one of the principle benefits of showing
animals is that they get seen, and handled, by people other than the
breeder. Other breeders on the show circuit know who has a good
breeding program, who takes care of their animals and socializes the
young ones properly. As much as anything else, social pressure reminds
people which corners they really can't cut.

If you want a purebred pet, go to some shows, talk to people, and
don't waste your time with any breeder that no one on the show circuit
knows.

> People buying a pedigree kitten for the first time, don't know any
> better. All they can see is the price, & they seem to go for the
> cheaper end of the market... & that would be the kitten farms, with
> whom I was trying to compete, & I simply couldn't!
> I think it is education that we need rather than laws.
>
> I am not saying that I don't agree with outlawing the practice, I am
> saying that if you do, it will simply go underground.
> Some people truely think that laws are made to be broken....
>
> If people really knew how kitten farms were run, the would run
> themselves, in the opposite direction. So we should educate people on
> the dangers of buying from kitten farms.(rather like we have done with
> smoking over the last few years).
> If you educate people to know better, then they have the choice of
> choosing the right kitten.

Education's important, and the only real long-term solution, but I
think that cutting off the pet store market--not outlawing the mills/
farms, but cutting off their biggest-volume, most profitable market--
would hurt those farms, and reduce the ease with which people can make
an impulse purchase that's bad for them and the animal.

If they have to look around to find out where to get a kitten, they're
more likely to encounter some of the educational information along the
way.

> all of the advice that I have seen so far makes good sense, & by far
> the most moving story I have heard is that of Gail's cats. It is a
> typical history presented to vets all the time.
> I realise that the pedigree kitten that you might want costs that
> little bit more... but if you are intent, & not to be dissuaded, Pay
> that little bit extra for the kitten you want, knowing that it has had
> all of the tests that you would expect to be done.
> And NEVER be frightened to ask to see the paperwork involved. Any
> breeder who is genuine, won't mind showing you vaccine certificates,
> vet bills associated.
> In fact, please don't take what is said @ face value...Check for
> yourself.

With some breeds, this means also asking about what health tests have
been done on the parents. Maine Coons, to pick an example near and
dear to my heart, have a tendency towards heart trouble. ALWAYS ask
about the parents' history, and the grandparents'. Know your breed,
find out what health problems to ask about, find out what kind of
paperwork a responsible breeder should be able to show you.

> Never buy a kitten from someone that hasn't come personally
> recommended buy another purchaser, who is pleased with their kitten.

I think recs from other breeders are even more important. People can
be awful suckers for the pet they love.

> Always ask to see their breeding licence.

Not really applicable in the US. There's USDA certification, but it
can actually be a bad sign. The commercial breeders (mills/farms) are
more likely to go to the trouble of getting it, and while it does
establish that the facilities are clean and the animals adequately
fed, the USDA inspectors are much more geared towards farm livestock
(cattle, sheep, pigs, etc.) than cats and dogs. It's no assurance of
breeding standards, socialization, or of the kittens or puppies being
allowed to stay with mom long enough.

> Never part with your money (or even a deposit!!) until you have
> visited the cattery, seen the kitten & you are happy with the kittens
> surroundings & the breeder too, @ least several times....

Yes.

> Always ask to see both parents,

Always ask, but remember it's a trick question. Mom should be on-site,
but it's relatively uncommon that a breeder will own the best possible
tom for their queen. It can happen, for sure, but you should ask about
it, and the breeder better have a better answer than "They're both
such wonderful animals..." There should be a plan involved that the
breeder, being a hopeless enthusiast for the breed, will be _eager_ to
talk about, at greater length than you really want to listen.
Otherwise, you're most likely talking to a backyard breeder, who
thinks breeding their purebred pets is a fun, easy way to make money.

>& never choose a breeder that does
> not
> come recommended by the regulating body of that breed.
>
> (ie: over in the UK, that would be the Gccf & also the Bengal
> breeders
> society, where everyone knows one another, & there are penalties for
> those who do not adhere to the rules of breeding).
>
> Furthermore, any breeder who is worth her salt(or his), would be more
> than interested in knowing where their precious kitten is going to
> after they leave mummy.
> I "never" let one of mine go without home visiting.. you can pick up
> a
> lot of information, even if you are expected.....
>
> A breeder who only allows their queen to have that one litter a year,
> will not allow that kitten to go until they are satisfied that you
> are
> good enough for their kitten.
> I would never have parted with one of my baby's without seeing where
> they would be living, & who with too.

I think home visits are less common in the US, possibly because
distances are greater, but every responsible breeder wants to meet,
and talk extensively with, the people who are asking for their
kittens. They'll ask detailed questions about previous pet-owning
experience, ask for references, etc. This is where those friends
who've bought a kitten from the same breeder really come in handy, or
can: she knows them, and knows whether or not she ever heard from them
again after parting with that earlier kitten. If she's been pleased
with them as responsible owners of one of her precious babies, their
word will help you get a kitten.

> And finally, If you must have a kitten of a particular breed, do your
> homework first, Please....?
>
> IF, all of the above all check out, then you are talking to a breeder
> who cares about her kittens.
>
> And if that is the case, you will know whether that breeder is good
> enough to sell you a kitten.
> If they care about their kitten, you
> will know, Instantly....!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, yes, yes!

Is this all a lot of work? Yes, it is. But you'll be happier with your
pet if you do it.

Lis

sheelagh
March 6th 07, 09:08 PM
>
> > > I'd love to see the kitten mills and puppy mills closed; so would most
> > > other people who are aware of them. Unfortunately, so far no one's
> > > managed to write a law that closes the mills without creating large
> > > burdens for responsible breeders who breed, at most, 1-3 litters a
> > > year, are careful about genetics and about proper socialization, are
> > > careful who they place those kittens or puppies with, and maintain a
> > > lifetime commitment to those puppies or kittens, after they're placed.
> > > These people aren't in it for the money; they're at best breaking even
> > > on something they do because they love their breed. As hard as some
> > > people here find it to accept the fact, these people are NOT the
> > > problem.
>
> > > But the principal outlet for the mills, pet stores, could be banned
> > > from selling animals. And a good push for that could probably get the
> > > support of some of the major pet supply store chains--PetCo and
> > > PetSmart already don't sell dogs and cats, and actively support rescue/
> > > adoption. That wouldn't cut off newspaper ads and internet sales, but
> > > the pet stores are where they make the volume sales, and losing that
> > > outlet would have to hurt.
>
> > > Lis-
>
> > One of the reasons that I gave up breeding was because I couldn't
> > compete with kitten mills as you call them.(we call them kitten
> > farms).
>
> > The expense of inoculating the kittens, vet checking them, & caring
> > for your cats in general does not come in to play with kitten farms.
> > They don't check their queens regularly with bloods & full health
> > checks, nor their stud cats either. It is not a concern to them
> > because once that kitten hits 10ish weeks, it is off out that door,
> > never to be thought about again.
>
> Sadly, I think 10 weeks is optimistic. The most marketable period for
> both kittens and puppies is 8-12 weeks; they want them in the pet
> stores by then. They're being taken from their mothers at 6 weeks, or
> younger.

I agree with you. That is dreadful & horrendous to hear too...

What I *didn't read in to your post*, was that you have pet stores
that sell kittens in store...?
That is now unheard of over here, thankfully...

Most kitten farms over here, do tend to wait until @ least 8weeks,
before advertising in the lower end of the market, lower read new
papers & in store at pet shops as private advertising as well as on
the net. I am going to give you a link for one of the sites over here
where it is free to advertise, & it won't take you too long to see who
is a genuine breeder, & who is knocking out kittens for profit.
I also think that you will be amazed at the price that people charge
for kittens in general( meaning moggies).

http://www.classifieds.co.uk/for-sale/pets_-_cats_-slash-_kittens/scat/489.asp

The Pet stores allow them to advertise, as long as they make a
contribution which could be as little as a quarter in your money,
because it is voluntary here.

> > I have spent untold amounts of money making sure that mine do get that
> > care, but in the end, it is up to the purchaser to choose the
> > breeder.
> > I have advertised in appropriate places, but @ the end of the day, it
> > is the client that chooses the breeder.
> > We have to rely on our good names within the breeding world, & also on
> > people who have seen our kittens & admired their appearance, sweet
> > natures & good health.
> > The kitten itself, speaks volumes about the breeder
>
> People think, "I don't want a show cat (or dog); I just want a pet."
> They don't understand that one of the principle benefits of showing
> animals is that they get seen, and handled, by people other than the
> breeder. Other breeders on the show circuit know who has a good
> breeding program, who takes care of their animals and socializes the
> young ones properly. As much as anything else, social pressure reminds
> people which corners they really can't cut.

I agree with this one too!!
Nothing can make up for socializing a kitten, than being handled
gently on a daily basis, & cuddled and loved. It is sooo important,
because the breeder is responsible for ensuring that the kitten that
they are selling to you is @ ease to be handled, not frightened of
humans, & associate humans with love and comfort. You only get 12
short weeks to ensure that your kitten is shaped for the rest of it's
life, so it is VERY IMPORTANT to the kitten & it's new slaves too.

> If you want a purebred pet, go to some shows, talk to people, and
> don't waste your time with any breeder that no one on the show circuit
> knows.

Definitely.. you get to meet all the better breeders & also the chance
to have conversations at length with them.
If the breeder doesn't make you feel that they have time to talk about
anything that you wish to know, then you must ask yourself why that
would be. Most of them are only too pleased to because we are talking
about their livelihood here. They want you to know that they are there
for you.
>
>
>
> > People buying a pedigree kitten for the first time, don't know any
> > better. All they can see is the price, & they seem to go for the
> > cheaper end of the market... & that would be the kitten farms, with
> > whom I was trying to compete, & I simply couldn't!
> > I think it is education that we need rather than laws.
>
> > I am not saying that I don't agree with outlawing the practice, I am
> > saying that if you do, it will simply go underground.
> > Some people truely think that laws are made to be broken....
>
> > If people really knew how kitten farms were run, the would run
> > themselves, in the opposite direction. So we should educate people on
> > the dangers of buying from kitten farms.(rather like we have done with
> > smoking over the last few years).
> > If you educate people to know better, then they have the choice of
> > choosing the right kitten.
>
> Education's important, and the only real long-term solution, but I
> think that cutting off the pet store market--not outlawing the mills/
> farms, but cutting off their biggest-volume, most profitable market--
> would hurt those farms, and reduce the ease with which people can make
> an impulse purchase that's bad for them and the animal.

Correct!

> If they have to look around to find out where to get a kitten, they're
> more likely to encounter some of the educational information along the
> way.

I used to advertise my kittens around a week after they were born.
I felt that this gave me the opportunity to get to know the new
family, & the other way around too.

In fact, I am still in contact with 98% of those families still. I
actively encouraged people to call me day or night if they were
worried about their kitten/cat..
Any breeder who cares about their kitten would do the same too.

> > all of the advice that I have seen so far makes good sense, & by far
> > the most moving story I have heard is that of Gail's cats. It is a
> > typical history presented to vets all the time.
> > I realise that the pedigree kitten that you might want costs that
> > little bit more... but if you are intent, & not to be dissuaded, Pay
> > that little bit extra for the kitten you want, knowing that it has had
> > all of the tests that you would expect to be done.
> > And NEVER be frightened to ask to see the paperwork involved. Any
> > breeder who is genuine, won't mind showing you vaccine certificates,
> > vet bills associated.
> > In fact, please don't take what is said @ face value...Check for
> > yourself.
>
> With some breeds, this means also asking about what health tests have
> been done on the parents. Maine Coons, to pick an example near and
> dear to my heart, have a tendency towards heart trouble. ALWAYS ask
> about the parents' history, and the grandparents'. Know your breed,
> find out what health problems to ask about, find out what kind of
> paperwork a responsible breeder should be able to show you.

I agree with this one as well. If you like the look of a cat, then if
you really are determined to have one, all you need to do , is plan
ahead. Kitten season is nearly upon us. Go to a show, look for
breeders in a reputable place ( over here, in the UK, I would advise
you would look @ a breeders Magazine, such as CAT WORLD), where
breeders talk to each other & they advertise up coming shows so that
you can have a look at the competition...

> > Never buy a kitten from someone that hasn't come personally
> > recommended buy another purchaser, who is pleased with their kitten.
>
> I think recs from other breeders are even more important. People can
> be awful suckers for the pet they love.

True, but I would say that moist people do tend to notice if all is
not well with their kitte/cat, & they have had to spend a fortune @
the vets regarding ill health.
Also , actions speak as loud as words when it comes to someone slating
a breeder if they have a bad experience with one...

> > Always ask to see their breeding licence.
>
> Not really applicable in the US. There's USDA certification, but it
> can actually be a bad sign. The commercial breeders (mills/farms) are
> more likely to go to the trouble of getting it, and while it does
> establish that the facilities are clean and the animals adequately
> fed, the USDA inspectors are much more geared towards farm livestock
> (cattle, sheep, pigs, etc.) than cats and dogs. It's no assurance of
> breeding standards, socialization, or of the kittens or puppies being
> allowed to stay with mom long enough.

How about the Cat fancy people. Would they keep a record of peoples
actions if they are affiliated with them?
Here it is the Gccf, & if anyone complains about a breeder, it is kept
on record for all to enquire if they wish to...

> > Never part with your money (or even a deposit!!) until you have
> > visited the cattery, seen the kitten & you are happy with the kittens
> > surroundings & the breeder too, @ least several times....
>
> Yes.
>
> > Always ask to see both parents,
>
> Always ask, but remember it's a trick question. Mom should be on-site,
> but it's relatively uncommon that a breeder will own the best possible
> tom for their queen. It can happen, for sure, but you should ask about
> it, and the breeder better have a better answer than "They're both
> such wonderful animals..." There should be a plan involved that the
> breeder, being a hopeless enthusiast for the breed, will be _eager_ to
> talk about, at greater length than you really want to listen.
> Otherwise, you're most likely talking to a backyard breeder, who
> thinks breeding their purebred pets is a fun, easy way to make money.

I suppose I was thinking of myself here, because I owned both queen &
stud too, so I expected to be asked to see both parents..& If I
wasn't, I brought the subject up for them...
>
>
>
>
> >& never choose a breeder that does
> > not
> > come recommended by the regulating body of that breed.
>
> > (ie: over in the UK, that would be the Gccf & also the Bengal
> > breeders
> > society, where everyone knows one another, & there are penalties for
> > those who do not adhere to the rules of breeding).
>
> > Furthermore, any breeder who is worth her salt(or his), would be more
> > than interested in knowing where their precious kitten is going to
> > after they leave mummy.
> > I "never" let one of mine go without home visiting.. you can pick up
> > a
> > lot of information, even if you are expected.....
>
> > A breeder who only allows their queen to have that one litter a year,
> > will not allow that kitten to go until they are satisfied that you
> > are
> > good enough for their kitten.
> > I would never have parted with one of my baby's without seeing where
> > they would be living, & who with too.
>
> I think home visits are less common in the US, possibly because
> distances are greater, but every responsible breeder wants to meet,
> and talk extensively with, the people who are asking for their
> kittens. They'll ask detailed questions about previous pet-owning
> experience, ask for references, etc. This is where those friends
> who've bought a kitten from the same breeder really come in handy, or
> can: she knows them, and knows whether or not she ever heard from them
> again after parting with that earlier kitten. If she's been pleased
> with them as responsible owners of one of her precious babies, their
> word will help you get a kitten.
>
> > And finally, If you must have a kitten of a particular breed, do your
> > homework first, Please....?
>
> > IF, all of the above all check out, then you are talking to a breeder
> > who cares about her kittens.
>
> > And if that is the case, you will know whether that breeder is good
> > enough to sell you a kitten.
> > If they care about their kitten, you
> > will know, Instantly....!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Yes, yes, yes!
>
> Is this all a lot of work? Yes, it is. But you'll be happier with your
> pet if you do it.
>
> Lis-
Last of all, I wonder if Lesley took our advice, or went for the
kitten anyway?
If she did, I would bet a pound for a dolllar that it was because of
the right price...What do you think?
S;o)

Lis
March 7th 07, 08:55 PM
On Mar 6, 3:08 pm, "sheelagh" > wrote:

<snip practically everything>

> Last of all, I wonder if Lesley took our advice, or went for the
> kitten anyway?
> If she did, I would bet a pound for a dolllar that it was because of
> the right price...What do you think?
> S;o)

I posted a much longer reply to you last night, but it seems to have
vanished into the ether. Just goes to show, what I type here is worth
the electrons it's printed with.:) Since I was mostly just agreeing
with you, it's probably not that important anyway.

I think we're probably giving Lesley our advice too late. If she's
already put down a deposit on the kitten, it becomes much harder, both
emotionally and financially, to back out of the deal.

Lis

sheelagh
March 7th 07, 09:59 PM
On 7 Mar, 19:55, "Lis" > wrote:
> On Mar 6, 3:08 pm, "sheelagh" > wrote:
>
> <snip practically everything>
>
> > Last of all, I wonder if Lesley took our advice, or went for the
> > kitten anyway?
> > If she did, I would bet a pound for a dollar that it was because of
> > the right price...What do you think?
> > S;o)
>
> I posted a much longer reply to you last night, but it seems to have
> vanished into the ether. Just goes to show, what I type here is worth
> the electrons it's printed with.:) Since I was mostly just agreeing
> with you, it's probably not that important anyway.

I have that problem too.
I think that the reason this happens is because after a certain length
of time, it just rejects any post that you make;o(
IF I think that there is a possibility that it might happen to me, I
tend to run hotmail or word as well, then copy and paste the whole
post just in case.. then if it doesn't appear on screen, you don't
have to do the whole thing over &it is not quite such a big
disaster....

Just give the use net time to see if it appears, & if it doesn't, all
you have to do is go back to copy & paste & transfer it back to the
place where you intended to post it.
I don't type very fast, so it can be a problem for me quite often... &
has saved my backside & temper quite a few time;o)

> I think we're probably giving Lesley our advice too late. If she's
> already put down a deposit on the kitten, it becomes much harder, both
> emotionally and financially, to back out of the deal.
> Lis
I have a feeling that you hit the nail right on the head.
It is such a shame that she didn't come to the group when she was
thinking about the idea, rather than checking with us half way through
the check out.

I hope for her sake that she has found a breeder who is worth half the
salt she claims to be, & that she she doesn't encounter any of the
problems that we discussed.
We all make mistakes, but this sort of mistake can cost you not just
in monetary terms.. it can hurt the heart too.
I very much hope that we didn't frighten her off, because when I
posted, it wasn't to question her intelligence, it was to save her the
heartache that comes with choosing a kitten farm.
I know so many people that used to come to me, who would openly tell
me that they had already been to see a kitten, perhaps 50 cheaper..
( I guess in an attempt to ask me if I would drop the price.. but I
couldn't, because I was only breaking even @ 300).

All I was able to do was to advise them as to *why* their prices were
cheaper than mine. The ones that came back to me were worth
considering for adoptive parents for the kittens, & the ones that
tried haggling were no loss at all!!

As I said, I still stay in touch with 98% of them, & It really is
wonderful to receive letters & photos of them, all of 5 years later. I
know that they are well loved and cared for, but most of all, it is
brilliant to know that I chose the right parents;o)
At the time, it was soo important to me that I would have kept the
kittens rather than let them go to a suspect parents...
An unthinkable thought when you consider it..
<shudder!!>
Nice to meet you too BTW
S;o)

Lis
March 8th 07, 12:02 AM
On Mar 7, 3:59 pm, "sheelagh" > wrote:
> On 7 Mar, 19:55, "Lis" > wrote:
>
> > On Mar 6, 3:08 pm, "sheelagh" > wrote:
>
> > <snip practically everything>
>
> > > Last of all, I wonder if Lesley took our advice, or went for the
> > > kitten anyway?
> > > If she did, I would bet a pound for a dollar that it was because of
> > > the right price...What do you think?
> > > S;o)
>
> > I posted a much longer reply to you last night, but it seems to have
> > vanished into the ether. Just goes to show, what I type here is worth
> > the electrons it's printed with.:) Since I was mostly just agreeing
> > with you, it's probably not that important anyway.
>
> I have that problem too.
> I think that the reason this happens is because after a certain length
> of time, it just rejects any post that you make;o(
> IF I think that there is a possibility that it might happen to me, I
> tend to run hotmail or word as well, then copy and paste the whole
> post just in case.. then if it doesn't appear on screen, you don't
> have to do the whole thing over &it is not quite such a big
> disaster....

I'll remember this, thanks.

> Just give the use net time to see if it appears, & if it doesn't, all
> you have to do is go back to copy & paste & transfer it back to the
> place where you intended to post it.
> I don't type very fast, so it can be a problem for me quite often... &
> has saved my backside & temper quite a few time;o)
>
> > I think we're probably giving Lesley our advice too late. If she's
> > already put down a deposit on the kitten, it becomes much harder, both
> > emotionally and financially, to back out of the deal.
> > Lis
>
> I have a feeling that you hit the nail right on the head.
> It is such a shame that she didn't come to the group when she was
> thinking about the idea, rather than checking with us half way through
> the check out.
>
> I hope for her sake that she has found a breeder who is worth half the
> salt she claims to be, & that she she doesn't encounter any of the
> problems that we discussed.
> We all make mistakes, but this sort of mistake can cost you not just
> in monetary terms.. it can hurt the heart too.
> I very much hope that we didn't frighten her off, because when I
> posted, it wasn't to question her intelligence, it was to save her the
> heartache that comes with choosing a kitten farm.

I hope so too. It's hard, though, for people to take in the
information when they're already emotionally committed. And sometimes
you find someone who looks real good in a lot of the important ways,
and yet there's problems there that you won't find unless you keep
digging.

I'm going through the process myself, right now, not for a cat but for
a dog. I hooked up with a breeder who shows, does agility and
obedience, etc. Who very much wanted to meet me first before making
any commitments. Who talked to me about what I was looking for in a
dog, why I decided on this breed, etc. Asked about my previous
experience with dogs, home situation--all the right things.

After a while I noticed that none of my questions about health and
genetic testing actually got answered, except with assurances that
their dogs are healthy and friendly. So I called the breeder referral,
asked for the names of a couple of good breeders in slightly different
geographic area, and called them. Short story is, if they are testing
their dogs for the known genetic problems of the breed, they aren't
sharing the results with anyone. NOT a good sign.

But at least I found out before giving my heart to a little ball of
fluff.

> I know so many people that used to come to me, who would openly tell
> me that they had already been to see a kitten, perhaps 50 cheaper..
> ( I guess in an attempt to ask me if I would drop the price.. but I
> couldn't, because I was only breaking even @ 300).

50?! That's, what, $100, $150 tops? On the $600-$700 purchase of a
live animal that's going to be a beloved member of the family? That's
nothing! Okay, not nothing, but not even close to a deal-breaker when
you understand the cost of proper vet care, food, and socialization
for young kittens. Of course, the problem is that they don't
understand.

> All I was able to do was to advise them as to *why* their prices were
> cheaper than mine. The ones that came back to me were worth
> considering for adoptive parents for the kittens, & the ones that
> tried haggling were no loss at all!!

Absolutely!

> As I said, I still stay in touch with 98% of them, & It really is
> wonderful to receive letters & photos of them, all of 5 years later. I
> know that they are well loved and cared for, but most of all, it is
> brilliant to know that I chose the right parents;o)

I kept actively in touch with the breeder of my two Maine Coons for
years. Not so much now, with a couple of states between us, the older
cat gone to the Rainbow Bridge, and the younger one a blessedly loving
and unexciting adult who refuses to be cute, or even sit still, for
the camera. But I still make a point of saying hello whenever we're at
the same cat show, and I wouldn't dream of not letting her know of any
major developments. Or, indeed, if I were looking for another kitten,
or a friend was. (Several of my friends have gotten cats from her as
well.)

> At the time, it was soo important to me that I would have kept the
> kittens rather than let them go to a suspect parents...
> An unthinkable thought when you consider it..
> <shudder!!>

Just remember, most of them were probably perfectly well-intentioned--
just a little bit ignorant. Not what you'd want for your babies, but
not bad people.

> Nice to meet you too BTW
> S;o)

A friendly face on Usenet is a wonderful thing.:)

Lis

zinzee
March 8th 07, 12:32 AM
>
> > I know so many people that used to come to me, who would openly tell
> > me that they had already been to see a kitten, perhaps 50 cheaper..
> > ( I guess in an attempt to ask me if I would drop the price.. but I
> > couldn't, because I was only breaking even @ 300).
>
> 50?! That's, what, $100, $150 tops? On the $600-$700 purchase of a
> live animal that's going to be a beloved member of the family? That's
> nothing! Okay, not nothing, but not even close to a deal-breaker when
> you understand the cost of proper vet care, food, and socialization
> for young kittens. Of course, the problem is that they don't
> understand.
>

Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
kitten mill.

The point is that the kitten in the pet store is for the impulse
buyer. Someone that is obviously not involved in the full process of
adopting a kitten, let alone the temperament and health issues
relating to a specific breed. This pet store is placed in a very high
brow area targeting buyers that are asking questions like, "How much
is that dog in the window?"

Anyhow, they're not the only ones in this city that offer dogs and
cats in their stores. I was rather alarmed to find such a practice
when I first adopted my cat just over a year ago. I'm originally from
San Francisco and I have not seen a dog or a cat in a pet store in
that region for at least a decade! I feel as if it may have been
outlawed, but without the time to do a proper google search my memory
does not serve me clearly. I have no idea how much animals in pet
stores outside of New York are sold for, but it is quite an odd
practice, if you ask me. My family has never even considered
purchasing a kitten or pup from one of these stores.

Best,
Heather

zinzee
March 8th 07, 12:33 AM
>
> > I know so many people that used to come to me, who would openly tell
> > me that they had already been to see a kitten, perhaps 50 cheaper..
> > ( I guess in an attempt to ask me if I would drop the price.. but I
> > couldn't, because I was only breaking even @ 300).
>
> 50?! That's, what, $100, $150 tops? On the $600-$700 purchase of a
> live animal that's going to be a beloved member of the family? That's
> nothing! Okay, not nothing, but not even close to a deal-breaker when
> you understand the cost of proper vet care, food, and socialization
> for young kittens. Of course, the problem is that they don't
> understand.
>

Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
kitten mill.

The point is that the kitten in the pet store is for the impulse
buyer. Someone that is obviously not involved in the full process of
adopting a kitten, let alone the temperament and health issues
relating to a specific breed. This pet store is placed in a very high
brow area targeting buyers that are asking questions like, "How much
is that dog in the window?"

Anyhow, they're not the only ones in this city that offer dogs and
cats in their stores. I was rather alarmed to find such a practice
when I first adopted my cat just over a year ago. I'm originally from
San Francisco and I have not seen a dog or a cat in a pet store in
that region for at least a decade! I feel as if it may have been
outlawed, but without the time to do a proper google search my memory
does not serve me clearly. I have no idea how much animals in pet
stores outside of New York are sold for, but it is quite an odd
practice, if you ask me. My family has never even considered
purchasing a kitten or pup from one of these stores.

Best,
Heather

zinzee
March 8th 07, 12:40 AM
>
> > I know so many people that used to come to me, who would openly tell
> > me that they had already been to see a kitten, perhaps 50 cheaper..
> > ( I guess in an attempt to ask me if I would drop the price.. but I
> > couldn't, because I was only breaking even @ 300).
>
> 50?! That's, what, $100, $150 tops? On the $600-$700 purchase of a
> live animal that's going to be a beloved member of the family? That's
> nothing! Okay, not nothing, but not even close to a deal-breaker when
> you understand the cost of proper vet care, food, and socialization
> for young kittens. Of course, the problem is that they don't
> understand.
>

Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
kitten mill.

The point is that the kitten in the pet store is for the impulse
buyer. Someone that is obviously not involved in the full process of
adopting a kitten, let alone the temperament and health issues
relating to a specific breed. This pet store is placed in a very high
brow area targeting buyers that are asking questions like, "How much
is that dog in the window?"

Anyhow, they're not the only ones in this city that offer dogs and
cats in their stores. I was rather alarmed to find such a practice
when I first adopted my cat just over a year ago. I'm originally from
San Francisco and I have not seen a dog or a cat in a pet store in
that region for at least a decade! I feel as if it may have been
outlawed, but without the time to do a proper google search my memory
does not serve me clearly. I have no idea how much animals in pet
stores outside of New York are sold for, but it is quite an odd
practice, if you ask me. My family has never even considered
purchasing a kitten or pup from one of these stores.

Best,
Heather

Claude V. Lucas
March 8th 07, 01:00 AM
In article . com>,
zinzee > wrote:
>
>
>Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
>around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
>big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
>around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
>then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
>year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
>Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
>Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
>has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
>kitten mill.

<snip>

I got Bubba

http://www.sonic.net/~claudel/Bubba/Bubba.html

from the pound for the adoption fee, shots and the first bag of food included.

26Lbs and still growing.

No history though.

I still can't believe somebody gave him up, but you never know.

Charlie Wilkes
March 8th 07, 01:22 AM
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:59:30 -0800, sheelagh wrote:

> On 7 Mar, 19:55, "Lis" > wrote:
>> On Mar 6, 3:08 pm, "sheelagh" > wrote:
>>
>> <snip practically everything>
>>
>> > Last of all, I wonder if Lesley took our advice, or went for the
>> > kitten anyway?
>> > If she did, I would bet a pound for a dollar that it was because of
>> > the right price...What do you think?
>> > S;o)
>>
>> I posted a much longer reply to you last night, but it seems to have
>> vanished into the ether. Just goes to show, what I type here is worth
>> the electrons it's printed with.:) Since I was mostly just agreeing
>> with you, it's probably not that important anyway.
>
> I have that problem too.
> I think that the reason this happens is because after a certain length
> of time, it just rejects any post that you make;o( IF I think that there
> is a possibility that it might happen to me, I tend to run hotmail or
> word as well, then copy and paste the whole post just in case.. then if
> it doesn't appear on screen, you don't have to do the whole thing over
> &it is not quite such a big disaster....
>
Sheelagh, I think I have mentioned this to you before. Take the time to
install and learn to use an NNTP news client, like Forte Agent.

Then you can compose all your messages without worrying about server
timeouts and the other perils of composing text on a web script. If
something happens to your connection, you can save your compositions off-
line and post them later. Moreover, you will find it easier to follow
threads. Google is a terrible interface for understanding who is posting
what in response to whom.

Of all the people in this group who need a good news client, you stand
out because you tend to write lengthy, detailed comments. Not that I'm
complaining mind you. I like you just the way you are.

Charlie

cybercat
March 8th 07, 01:25 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
>>
> Sheelagh, I think I have mentioned this to you before. Take the time to
> install and learn to use an NNTP news client, like Forte Agent.
>

Charlie, Gravity is an old but really good news reader. It is like
agent without all the superfluous crap.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

March 8th 07, 03:30 AM
Greetings, all!
I'm new to this forum so I didn't realize I had replies until a couple
days ago- so... I was surprised when I saw all the feedback!

I don't have time to give a "full" response to all the picket signs I
see going up, but I'll give you a little bit more background and
updates. :)

1) I can't argue the shelter kitty vs. breeder kitty thing because
I'm on both sides of that fence. I have always adopted kitties, my
family has shelter kitties, and I love them just the same. I
"stumbled" on my Bengal a few years ago (long story) and I wanted to
get her a Bengal friend who would be "guaranteed" to be more her speed
because of her activity level. My original question (although it got
quite off-topic) was just about how to bring out the soft side of a
naturally crazy breed. But, even if he doesn't turn out to be cuddly
I will love him as much as I love my current crazy girl. My aunt
actually adopts tons of kitties, but I wouldn't call her a "hero"
because she doesn't get any of them fixed so it adds to the problem!
I have no idea why she doesn't ever fix them but it drives me crazy.
My cat (and the new kitten) came with spay/neuter agreements. If I
don't send my breeder notification that my boy has been spayed within
6 months, I owe her an extra grand! If that isn't an incentive then I
don't know what is. :) I also donate to pet shelters and contribute
financially even though I can't bring them all home with me.
Regardless, I won't get into this argument because I really do feel
conflicted on both sides of the fence. I appreciate all of your
passion about this, though.

2) You are right, I had already purchased the kitten, in full, before
the post- so there was no backing out. BUT, I didn't pick him out due
to price, certainly. He was a pretty $1,000 US (including 200 for
shipping) so he wasn't a dime-a-dozen kitty. My breeder was very
reputable, a registered breeder with several organizations, and is
listed as a TICA "Outstanding Breeder". She has begged me to come
vist and has shown me pictures of her house, her cattery, etc... but
distance just won't allow. She is willing to talk to me on the phone
for hours about her cats, her setup, and she is obviously sincere. I
"fired" two previous breeders that I interviewed because i just didn't
get a good vibe from them. She made me fill out an interview form
before she would even let me consider purchasing the cat... one of the
questions being my veternarian's name and phone number. :) I am VERY
sure that she isn't a kitten mill and that she's a wonderful person
who loves her cats deeply. She even gave me the recipe for the home
cooked meals she feeds them....

Thanks for all the info, guys!

~L

Barry
March 8th 07, 03:46 AM
I like Googles view..

http://www.2and2.net/files/45ef85f961efb.jpg

Maybe you've never tweaked it like in pic...

I agree... a web script can get on your nerves...

Lynne
March 8th 07, 03:51 AM
on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:30:48 GMT, wrote:

> Thanks for all the info, guys!

Sounds to me like you've found a good breeder. Hopefully she is handling
the kittens a lot and they will be naturally bonded to humans. Perhaps
hand feeding your new kitten will help him feel and therefore closer to
you?

Please share some photos of the new kitten when you get him, and the older
residents, too!

--
Lynne

Charlie Wilkes
March 8th 07, 06:08 AM
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:25:38 -0500, cybercat wrote:

> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
>>>
>> Sheelagh, I think I have mentioned this to you before. Take the time
>> to install and learn to use an NNTP news client, like Forte Agent.
>>
>>
> Charlie, Gravity is an old but really good news reader. It is like agent
> without all the superfluous crap.
>
Sure. Gravity would be a fine choice. Sheelagh (and Lis) are
floundering around on Google's web interface.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
March 8th 07, 06:21 AM
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:46:00 -0800, Barry wrote:

> I like Googles view..
>
> http://www.2and2.net/files/45ef85f961efb.jpg
>
> Maybe you've never tweaked it like in pic...

The layout is fine, but I want an offline reader that stores the feed on
my hdd so I can sort/search through numerous posts rapidly and not have
to worry about timeouts. It's been awhile since I've used Google and
maybe it's better, but it seems to cause a lot of confusion. I noticed
zinzee posted the same message three times, and I don't have to wonder
why... the confirmation timed out so she didn't think it went through.

Charlie

March 8th 07, 12:42 PM
On Mar 7, 9:51 pm, Lynne > wrote:
> on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:30:48 GMT, wrote:
>
> > Thanks for all the info, guys!
>
> Sounds to me like you've found a good breeder. Hopefully she is handling
> the kittens a lot and they will be naturally bonded to humans. Perhaps
> hand feeding your new kitten will help him feel and therefore closer to
> you?
>
> Please share some photos of the new kitten when you get him, and the older
> residents, too!
>
> --
> Lynne

Hand feeding is a good idea... I might try a little of that. She
seems to do a really good job handling the kittens and socializing
them- I just can't help but to be a "nervous mom" because it's my
nature. :) I can't imagine what people go through for a HUMAN
adoption! It must be so stressful. :)

sheelagh
March 8th 07, 01:53 PM
>
> > > Thanks for all the info, guys!
>
> > Sounds to me like you've found a good breeder. Hopefully she is handling
> > the kittens a lot and they will be naturally bonded to humans. Perhaps
> > hand feeding your new kitten will help him feel and therefore closer to
> > you?
>
> > Please share some photos of the new kitten when you get him, and the older
> > residents, too!
>
> > --
> > Lynne
>
> Hand feeding is a good idea.

It is.

You don't need expensive toys, just lots of spare time, A toilet roll
inner tube and a bit if string. Another favourite is a on old plastic
bauble off the Xmas tree, with string attached.
All kitten love chasing things and by spending the time with them, it
helps the bonding process. the more attention that you can afford to
give them, the better the bonding.
I don't know if you have any children, but I do & I have found that
they are a key part of our bonding process with kittens. All of them
are old enough to know better than to miss handle them, & I find that
they play a huge role in the kittens wanting to be a part of
everything.. because they have the time to just play, which is exactly
what the kittens want.

You do seem to have done your homework by the sound of your posting, &
I for one am pleased that we didn't frighten you away.
I think sometimes we get so carried away expressing our opinions that
we forget the initial poster, & the advice that they asked for.
Best of luck to you, I really do look forward to seeing the photos of
your babe's eventually.
Best Wishes,
S;o)

sheelagh
March 8th 07, 02:00 PM
On 8 Mar, 00:22, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:59:30 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
> > On 7 Mar, 19:55, "Lis" > wrote:
> >> On Mar 6, 3:08 pm, "sheelagh" > wrote:
>
> >> <snip practically everything>
>
> >> > Last of all, I wonder if Lesley took our advice, or went for the
> >> > kitten anyway?
> >> > If she did, I would bet a pound for a dollar that it was because of
> >> > the right price...What do you think?
> >> > S;o)
>
> >> I posted a much longer reply to you last night, but it seems to have
> >> vanished into the ether. Just goes to show, what I type here is worth
> >> the electrons it's printed with.:) Since I was mostly just agreeing
> >> with you, it's probably not that important anyway.
>
> > I have that problem too.
> > I think that the reason this happens is because after a certain length
> > of time, it just rejects any post that you make;o( IF I think that there
> > is a possibility that it might happen to me, I tend to run hotmail or
> > word as well, then copy and paste the whole post just in case.. then if
> > it doesn't appear on screen, you don't have to do the whole thing over
> > &it is not quite such a big disaster....
>
> Sheelagh, I think I have mentioned this to you before. Take the time to
> install and learn to use an NNTP news client, like Forte Agent.
>
> Then you can compose all your messages without worrying about server
> timeouts and the other perils of composing text on a web script. If
> something happens to your connection, you can save your compositions off-
> line and post them later. Moreover, you will find it easier to follow
> threads. Google is a terrible interface for understanding who is posting
> what in response to whom.
>
> Of all the people in this group who need a good news client, you stand
> out because you tend to write lengthy, detailed comments. Not that I'm
> complaining mind you. I like you just the way you are.
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Charlie, & thanks for the avdice.

You most definately have mentioned this in the past

This is the bit where I have to swallow my pride & admit that I have
no idea what you are talking about when you say a *NNTP or Forte Agent
either;o(

Having said that, I am off to research it now to see what I can come
up with.
Anything has got to be easier than what I am going through currently,
lol!!
I am also going to have a search for Gravity too. thanks to both you &
Cyber as well,
S;o)

sheelagh
March 8th 07, 03:07 PM
On 8 Mar, 00:22, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:59:30 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
> > On 7 Mar, 19:55, "Lis" > wrote:
> >> On Mar 6, 3:08 pm, "sheelagh" > wrote:
>
> >> <snip practically everything>
>
> >> > Last of all, I wonder if Lesley took our advice, or went for the
> >> > kitten anyway?
> >> > If she did, I would bet a pound for a dollar that it was because of
> >> > the right price...What do you think?
> >> > S;o)
>
> >> I posted a much longer reply to you last night, but it seems to have
> >> vanished into the ether. Just goes to show, what I type here is worth
> >> the electrons it's printed with.:) Since I was mostly just agreeing
> >> with you, it's probably not that important anyway.
>
> > I have that problem too.
> > I think that the reason this happens is because after a certain length
> > of time, it just rejects any post that you make;o( IF I think that there
> > is a possibility that it might happen to me, I tend to run hotmail or
> > word as well, then copy and paste the whole post just in case.. then if
> > it doesn't appear on screen, you don't have to do the whole thing over
> > &it is not quite such a big disaster....
>
> Sheelagh, I think I have mentioned this to you before. Take the time to
> install and learn to use an NNTP news client, like Forte Agent.
>
> Then you can compose all your messages without worrying about server
> timeouts and the other perils of composing text on a web script. If
> something happens to your connection, you can save your compositions off-
> line and post them later. Moreover, you will find it easier to follow
> threads. Google is a terrible interface for understanding who is posting
> what in response to whom.
>
> Of all the people in this group who need a good news client, you stand
> out because you tend to write lengthy, detailed comments. Not that I'm
> complaining mind you. I like you just the way you are.
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

OK, I have done the search & found both Forte News & Gravity...
Now, what I need is advice on which one would be best for me to use,
in both of your opinions please..?
I don't want to down load it only to find out that I have chosen the
lesser of the two..
Thanks for the advice too by the way
S;o)

Lynne
March 8th 07, 03:13 PM
on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:07:00 GMT, "sheelagh"
> wrote:

> OK, I have done the search & found both Forte News & Gravity...
> Now, what I need is advice on which one would be best for me to use,
> in both of your opinions please..?
> I don't want to down load it only to find out that I have chosen the
> lesser of the two..
> Thanks for the advice too by the way

Before you install any newsreader, you should make sure your Internet
Service Provider (ISP) has a news server. Go to their home page and do a
search on "news server." You may have to be logged on as a member in order
to view that information. If your ISP has a news server, you're golden.
Then you can install any news reader, enter the information as directed by
your ISP, and start reading news groups the way they were meant to be read.

--
Lynne

March 8th 07, 03:55 PM
On Mar 8, 7:53 am, "sheelagh" > wrote:
> > > > Thanks for all the info, guys!
>
> > > Sounds to me like you've found a good breeder. Hopefully she is handling
> > > the kittens a lot and they will be naturally bonded to humans. Perhaps
> > > hand feeding your new kitten will help him feel and therefore closer to
> > > you?
>
> > > Please share some photos of the new kitten when you get him, and the older
> > > residents, too!
>
> > > --
> > > Lynne
>
> > Hand feeding is a good idea.
>
> It is.
>
> You don't need expensive toys, just lots of spare time, A toilet roll
> inner tube and a bit if string. Another favourite is a on old plastic
> bauble off the Xmas tree, with string attached.
> All kitten love chasing things and by spending the time with them, it
> helps the bonding process. the more attention that you can afford to
> give them, the better the bonding.
> I don't know if you have any children, but I do & I have found that
> they are a key part of our bonding process with kittens. All of them
> are old enough to know better than to miss handle them, & I find that
> they play a huge role in the kittens wanting to be a part of
> everything.. because they have the time to just play, which is exactly
> what the kittens want.
>
> You do seem to have done your homework by the sound of your posting, &
> I for one am pleased that we didn't frighten you away.
> I think sometimes we get so carried away expressing our opinions that
> we forget the initial poster, & the advice that they asked for.
> Best of luck to you, I really do look forward to seeing the photos of
> your babe's eventually.
> Best Wishes,
> S;o)

Thanks :) I don't have children, but I imagine that having kids
would really help since they don't get bored of kitty games very
easily... just like kitties don't get bored of kitty games very
easily! :) I am having my gallbladder removed a week after he gets
here so I will be at home resting for a week or two. Even though I
won't be able to run laps around the house with him, I'm hoping that
this will be a great opportunity for bonding since I'll be home 24x7
for a little while. I can use the string toys while in bed and just
toss them around. hee hee

On another note, my resident cat has all of the sudden taken a turn
for the worst. :*( I'm really worried about her. She has licked a
large bald spot on her back and on her front legs and she's been
acting a little distant. She has been acting very "distrusting" and
seems to get a little nervous when we get near her- which is very
unusual. She will come visit us in the morning, as is part of her
routine, but she has just been acting strange and the bald spot is
exceptionally weird. She doesn't have fleas, so I don't know what it
could be. I'm taking her to the vet this afternoon, but please let me
know if you have any suggestions!

I will definitely send pictures (although someone might have to show
me how... unless you're referring to email) when he arrives!

Lis
March 8th 07, 03:58 PM
On Mar 8, 12:08 am, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:

<snip>

> Sure. Gravity would be a fine choice. Sheelagh (and Lis) are
> floundering around on Google's web interface.
>
> Charlie

Well, yeah, but in my case, it's because I swore off Usenet years ago,
never to return.

Never ever.

Not even for a few minutes.

And if I were to get myself a real newsfeed, and a real news client,
that would mean I was back. Since that obviously can't be true,
though, I can't possibly need a news client.

Right?

(Hey! Cut that out! You think I can't hear you howling with
laughter?!)

Lis

Lis
March 8th 07, 04:09 PM
On Mar 7, 9:30 pm, wrote:
> Greetings, all!
> I'm new to this forum so I didn't realize I had replies until a couple
> days ago- so... I was surprised when I saw all the feedback!
>
> I don't have time to give a "full" response to all the picket signs I
> see going up, but I'll give you a little bit more background and
> updates. :)

One of the problems with Usenet is that everyone, individually, sees
your post and responds, and then when you come back, you see all those
posts collectively. It can feel like piling-on even when it isn't.
(And of course, sometimes it is.)

> 1) I can't argue the shelter kitty vs. breeder kitty thing because
> I'm on both sides of that fence. I have always adopted kitties, my
> family has shelter kitties, and I love them just the same. I
> "stumbled" on my Bengal a few years ago (long story) and I wanted to
> get her a Bengal friend who would be "guaranteed" to be more her speed
> because of her activity level. My original question (although it got
> quite off-topic) was just about how to bring out the soft side of a
> naturally crazy breed. But, even if he doesn't turn out to be cuddly
> I will love him as much as I love my current crazy girl. My aunt
> actually adopts tons of kitties, but I wouldn't call her a "hero"
> because she doesn't get any of them fixed so it adds to the problem!
> I have no idea why she doesn't ever fix them but it drives me crazy.
> My cat (and the new kitten) came with spay/neuter agreements. If I
> don't send my breeder notification that my boy has been spayed within
> 6 months, I owe her an extra grand! If that isn't an incentive then I
> don't know what is. :) I also donate to pet shelters and contribute
> financially even though I can't bring them all home with me.
> Regardless, I won't get into this argument because I really do feel
> conflicted on both sides of the fence. I appreciate all of your
> passion about this, though.
>
> 2) You are right, I had already purchased the kitten, in full, before
> the post- so there was no backing out. BUT, I didn't pick him out due
> to price, certainly. He was a pretty $1,000 US (including 200 for
> shipping) so he wasn't a dime-a-dozen kitty. My breeder was very
> reputable, a registered breeder with several organizations, and is
> listed as a TICA "Outstanding Breeder". She has begged me to come
> vist and has shown me pictures of her house, her cattery, etc... but
> distance just won't allow. She is willing to talk to me on the phone
> for hours about her cats, her setup, and she is obviously sincere. I
> "fired" two previous breeders that I interviewed because i just didn't
> get a good vibe from them. She made me fill out an interview form
> before she would even let me consider purchasing the cat... one of the
> questions being my veternarian's name and phone number. :) I am VERY
> sure that she isn't a kitten mill and that she's a wonderful person
> who loves her cats deeply. She even gave me the recipe for the home
> cooked meals she feeds them....
>
> Thanks for all the info, guys!
>
> ~L

It sounds like you've done everything Sheelagh and I were worried you
hadn't, and that you've found a good breeder. Good luck with your new
little one!

Lis

AZ Nomad
March 8th 07, 04:22 PM
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:13:30 -0600, Lynne > wrote:


>on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:07:00 GMT, "sheelagh"
> wrote:

>> OK, I have done the search & found both Forte News & Gravity...
>> Now, what I need is advice on which one would be best for me to use,
>> in both of your opinions please..?
>> I don't want to down load it only to find out that I have chosen the
>> lesser of the two..
>> Thanks for the advice too by the way

>Before you install any newsreader, you should make sure your Internet
>Service Provider (ISP) has a news server. Go to their home page and do a
>search on "news server." You may have to be logged on as a member in order
>to view that information. If your ISP has a news server, you're golden.
>Then you can install any news reader, enter the information as directed by
>your ISP, and start reading news groups the way they were meant to be read.

In fifteen years, I've never seen an ISP that didn't have a news server.

If you get an ISP w/out a news server, you can always use a third party
usenet service like supernews; problem is that you have to pay for it.
I did exactly that when an ISP I used had problems w/ their news servers.

Lynne
March 8th 07, 04:45 PM
on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:22:25 GMT, AZ Nomad >
wrote:

> In fifteen years, I've never seen an ISP that didn't have a news server.

Apparently AOL no longer has a news server. But I never considered AOL to
be an ISP in the classic sense.

--
Lynne

AZ Nomad
March 8th 07, 05:55 PM
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 09:45:28 -0600, Lynne > wrote:


>on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:22:25 GMT, AZ Nomad >
>wrote:

>> In fifteen years, I've never seen an ISP that didn't have a news server.

>Apparently AOL no longer has a news server. But I never considered AOL to
>be an ISP in the classic sense.

No argument there. Thanks for the news that AOL is ending its polution of
usenet with its clueless users. Those on AOL who are actually savvy enough
to know that USENET isn't the web can always use a third party service. I
just looked up supernews.com (the one I used for a while in the early 90's)
and they start at $4/month.

zinzee
March 8th 07, 06:49 PM
On Mar 7, 7:00 pm, (Claude V. Lucas) wrote:
> In article . com>,
>
> zinzee > wrote:
>
> >Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
> >around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
> >big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
> >around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
> >then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
> >year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
> >Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
> >Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
> >has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
> >kitten mill.
>
> <snip>
>
> I got Bubba
>
> http://www.sonic.net/~claudel/Bubba/Bubba.html
>
> from the pound for the adoption fee, shots and the first bag of food included.
>
> 26Lbs and still growing.
>
> No history though.
>
> I still can't believe somebody gave him up, but you never know.

So adorable!!! I love those cats!

After a lot of looking around I actually decided that I didn't want to
get a Maine Coon from a breeder. I decided to search petfinder for a
Maine Coon that had been given up. Unfortunately, as of right now I
won't be adopting any new cats because my beloved Mack C. may have a
heart condition and I don't want to put any undue stress on him!
Perhaps with proper medication he'll be stable enough for us to add to
our family.

When I originally saw Mack C., I actually liked his sister because she
was all black. I never thought I'd want a cat with white fur because
I work in restaurant and tend to wear a lot of darker colored
clothes. Anyhow, he was so interactive and I just fell in love with
him and I'm so glad I took him with me. Best to not let the color of
a cat be the deciding factor when it comes to adoption! Anyhow,
here's a pic of my little one. I need to put some other ones up as
he's a much and loves the camera! http://www.thebighustle.com/mack2.jpg

All the best,
Heather

March 8th 07, 06:55 PM
On Mar 8, 12:49 pm, "zinzee" > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 7:00 pm, (Claude V. Lucas) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article . com>,
>
> > zinzee > wrote:
>
> > >Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
> > >around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
> > >big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
> > >around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
> > >then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
> > >year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
> > >Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
> > >Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
> > >has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
> > >kitten mill.
>
> > <snip>
>
> > I got Bubba
>
> >http://www.sonic.net/~claudel/Bubba/Bubba.html
>
> > from the pound for the adoption fee, shots and the first bag of food included.
>
> > 26Lbs and still growing.
>
> > No history though.
>
> > I still can't believe somebody gave him up, but you never know.
>
> So adorable!!! I love those cats!
>
> After a lot of looking around I actually decided that I didn't want to
> get a Maine Coon from a breeder. I decided to search petfinder for a
> Maine Coon that had been given up. Unfortunately, as of right now I
> won't be adopting any new cats because my beloved Mack C. may have a
> heart condition and I don't want to put any undue stress on him!
> Perhaps with proper medication he'll be stable enough for us to add to
> our family.
>
> When I originally saw Mack C., I actually liked his sister because she
> was all black. I never thought I'd want a cat with white fur because
> I work in restaurant and tend to wear a lot of darker colored
> clothes. Anyhow, he was so interactive and I just fell in love with
> him and I'm so glad I took him with me. Best to not let the color of
> a cat be the deciding factor when it comes to adoption! Anyhow,
> here's a pic of my little one. I need to put some other ones up as
> he's a much and loves the camera!http://www.thebighustle.com/mack2.jpg
>
> All the best,
> Heather- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What a sweetheart! He looks like a wonderful little kitty. I'm sure
you love him to pieces- White fur and all! :)

~L

Claude V. Lucas
March 8th 07, 07:17 PM
In article . com>,
zinzee > wrote:
>On Mar 7, 7:00 pm, (Claude V. Lucas) wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>>
>> zinzee > wrote:
>>
>> >Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
>> >around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
>> >big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
>> >around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
>> >then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
>> >year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
>> >Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
>> >Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
>> >has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
>> >kitten mill.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> I got Bubba
>>
>> http://www.sonic.net/~claudel/Bubba/Bubba.html
>>
>> from the pound for the adoption fee, shots and the first bag of food included.
>>
>> 26Lbs and still growing.
>>
>> No history though.
>>
>> I still can't believe somebody gave him up, but you never know.
>
>So adorable!!! I love those cats!
>
>After a lot of looking around I actually decided that I didn't want to
>get a Maine Coon from a breeder. I decided to search petfinder for a
>Maine Coon that had been given up. Unfortunately, as of right now I
>won't be adopting any new cats because my beloved Mack C. may have a
>heart condition and I don't want to put any undue stress on him!
>Perhaps with proper medication he'll be stable enough for us to add to
>our family.
>
>When I originally saw Mack C., I actually liked his sister because she
>was all black. I never thought I'd want a cat with white fur because
>I work in restaurant and tend to wear a lot of darker colored
>clothes. Anyhow, he was so interactive and I just fell in love with
>him and I'm so glad I took him with me. Best to not let the color of
>a cat be the deciding factor when it comes to adoption! Anyhow,
>here's a pic of my little one. I need to put some other ones up as
>he's a much and loves the camera! http://www.thebighustle.com/mack2.jpg

Sorry to hear that Mack is ill. That's a great picture. If he gets well
enough for a feline companion consider checking out a rescue organization
as well. If you use Google search for "Maine Coon Rescue" several
places on the East Coast pop up in the first screen. I don't personally
have an issue with caring people choosing to breed and sell purebred animals,
but $1k+ is a *lot* of money and probably would buy a lifetime of premium
cat food...

Good luck with Mack.


Claude

zinzee
March 8th 07, 07:19 PM
On Mar 7, 9:30 pm, wrote:
> Greetings, all!
> I'm new to this forum so I didn't realize I had replies until a couple
> days ago- so... I was surprised when I saw all the feedback!
>
> I don't have time to give a "full" response to all the picket signs I
> see going up, but I'll give you a little bit more background and
> updates. :)
>
> 1) I can't argue the shelter kitty vs. breeder kitty thing because
> I'm on both sides of that fence. I have always adopted kitties, my
> family has shelter kitties, and I love them just the same. I
> "stumbled" on my Bengal a few years ago (long story) and I wanted to
> get her a Bengal friend who would be "guaranteed" to be more her speed
> because of her activity level. My original question (although it got
> quite off-topic) was just about how to bring out the soft side of a
> naturally crazy breed. But, even if he doesn't turn out to be cuddly
> I will love him as much as I love my current crazy girl. My aunt
> actually adopts tons of kitties, but I wouldn't call her a "hero"
> because she doesn't get any of them fixed so it adds to the problem!
> I have no idea why she doesn't ever fix them but it drives me crazy.
> My cat (and the new kitten) came with spay/neuter agreements. If I
> don't send my breeder notification that my boy has been spayed within
> 6 months, I owe her an extra grand! If that isn't an incentive then I
> don't know what is. :) I also donate to pet shelters and contribute
> financially even though I can't bring them all home with me.
> Regardless, I won't get into this argument because I really do feel
> conflicted on both sides of the fence. I appreciate all of your
> passion about this, though.
>
> 2) You are right, I had already purchased the kitten, in full, before
> the post- so there was no backing out. BUT, I didn't pick him out due
> to price, certainly. He was a pretty $1,000 US (including 200 for
> shipping) so he wasn't a dime-a-dozen kitty. My breeder was very
> reputable, a registered breeder with several organizations, and is
> listed as a TICA "Outstanding Breeder". She has begged me to come
> vist and has shown me pictures of her house, her cattery, etc... but
> distance just won't allow. She is willing to talk to me on the phone
> for hours about her cats, her setup, and she is obviously sincere. I
> "fired" two previous breeders that I interviewed because i just didn't
> get a good vibe from them. She made me fill out an interview form
> before she would even let me consider purchasing the cat... one of the
> questions being my veternarian's name and phone number. :) I am VERY
> sure that she isn't a kitten mill and that she's a wonderful person
> who loves her cats deeply. She even gave me the recipe for the home
> cooked meals she feeds them....
>
> Thanks for all the info, guys!
>
> ~L

Sounds like you did your homework, congrats and please let us know how
the new kitty integrates.

Also, I don't have experience with Bengals, but I've found that
holding cats in a cradling position, like a baby, right from the start
causes them to be comfortable in your arms. Don't hold them to the
point of the cat freaking out, but rather do it in short sessions
until slowly but surely you can cradle the cat for longer and longer
periods of time. I've always done this with my cats because I think I
wanted them to be my babies when I was younger. This worked well for
my mom's dog, as well.

Best of luck,
Heather

zinzee
March 8th 07, 07:25 PM
On Mar 8, 12:21 am, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:46:00 -0800, Barry wrote:
> > I like Googles view..
>
> >http://www.2and2.net/files/45ef85f961efb.jpg
>
> > Maybe you've never tweaked it like in pic...
>
> The layout is fine, but I want an offline reader that stores the feed on
> my hdd so I can sort/search through numerous posts rapidly and not have
> to worry about timeouts. It's been awhile since I've used Google and
> maybe it's better, but it seems to cause a lot of confusion. I noticed
> zinzee posted the same message three times, and I don't have to wonder
> why... the confirmation timed out so she didn't think it went through.
>
> Charlie

D'oh, sorry! I just got back on Usenet and I'm downloading a trial of
your suggestions now!

Best,
Heather

March 8th 07, 07:26 PM
On Mar 8, 1:19 pm, "zinzee" > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 9:30 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Greetings, all!
> > I'm new to this forum so I didn't realize I had replies until a couple
> > days ago- so... I was surprised when I saw all the feedback!
>
> > I don't have time to give a "full" response to all the picket signs I
> > see going up, but I'll give you a little bit more background and
> > updates. :)
>
> > 1) I can't argue the shelter kitty vs. breeder kitty thing because
> > I'm on both sides of that fence. I have always adopted kitties, my
> > family has shelter kitties, and I love them just the same. I
> > "stumbled" on my Bengal a few years ago (long story) and I wanted to
> > get her a Bengal friend who would be "guaranteed" to be more her speed
> > because of her activity level. My original question (although it got
> > quite off-topic) was just about how to bring out the soft side of a
> > naturally crazy breed. But, even if he doesn't turn out to be cuddly
> > I will love him as much as I love my current crazy girl. My aunt
> > actually adopts tons of kitties, but I wouldn't call her a "hero"
> > because she doesn't get any of them fixed so it adds to the problem!
> > I have no idea why she doesn't ever fix them but it drives me crazy.
> > My cat (and the new kitten) came with spay/neuter agreements. If I
> > don't send my breeder notification that my boy has been spayed within
> > 6 months, I owe her an extra grand! If that isn't an incentive then I
> > don't know what is. :) I also donate to pet shelters and contribute
> > financially even though I can't bring them all home with me.
> > Regardless, I won't get into this argument because I really do feel
> > conflicted on both sides of the fence. I appreciate all of your
> > passion about this, though.
>
> > 2) You are right, I had already purchased the kitten, in full, before
> > the post- so there was no backing out. BUT, I didn't pick him out due
> > to price, certainly. He was a pretty $1,000 US (including 200 for
> > shipping) so he wasn't a dime-a-dozen kitty. My breeder was very
> > reputable, a registered breeder with several organizations, and is
> > listed as a TICA "Outstanding Breeder". She has begged me to come
> > vist and has shown me pictures of her house, her cattery, etc... but
> > distance just won't allow. She is willing to talk to me on the phone
> > for hours about her cats, her setup, and she is obviously sincere. I
> > "fired" two previous breeders that I interviewed because i just didn't
> > get a good vibe from them. She made me fill out an interview form
> > before she would even let me consider purchasing the cat... one of the
> > questions being my veternarian's name and phone number. :) I am VERY
> > sure that she isn't a kitten mill and that she's a wonderful person
> > who loves her cats deeply. She even gave me the recipe for the home
> > cooked meals she feeds them....
>
> > Thanks for all the info, guys!
>
> > ~L
>
> Sounds like you did your homework, congrats and please let us know how
> the new kitty integrates.
>
> Also, I don't have experience with Bengals, but I've found that
> holding cats in a cradling position, like a baby, right from the start
> causes them to be comfortable in your arms. Don't hold them to the
> point of the cat freaking out, but rather do it in short sessions
> until slowly but surely you can cradle the cat for longer and longer
> periods of time. I've always done this with my cats because I think I
> wanted them to be my babies when I was younger. This worked well for
> my mom's dog, as well.
>
> Best of luck,
> Heather- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks, Heather. That sounds like a good plan. I don't want to
"torture" the poor thing by forcing it to be held, but I do want it to
know that I'm not going to cause it any harm while cuddling. :)
Kitties are so wonderful for absorbing that "poison" that seems to be
within us whenever we have a long hard day.

Charlie Wilkes
March 8th 07, 08:49 PM
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 06:07:00 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
>
> OK, I have done the search & found both Forte News & Gravity... Now,
> what I need is advice on which one would be best for me to use, in both
> of your opinions please..?
> I don't want to down load it only to find out that I have chosen the
> lesser of the two..
> Thanks for the advice too by the way
> S;o)

Agent is shareware, with a 30-day trial period after which it disables
itself unless you pay the registration fee. Gravity is free.

I happen to be more familiar with Agent, and I have never used Gravity,
but Gravity has a good reputation.

My advice would be to download and install Gravity and see how you like
it, i.e., start with freeware and decide if it's good enough, because
usually it is.

You will have to set it up after you install it... that will require you
to find out the name of your ISP's news server... usually something like
nntp.ISPcompany.com or news.ISPcompany.com. Go to your ISP's support
page for that information. Your ISP's server will probably require
authentication, so you will have to enter in your acct. username and
password in the appropriate fields, but you can set the newsreader to
post under any name you like. Finally you will have to download a list
of all the newsgroups your ISP carries, of which this group will almost
certainly be included.

It's a learning curve, but once you have it set up and are comfortable
with it, you will see that it is a big improvement over Google.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
March 8th 07, 09:07 PM
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:25:31 -0800, zinzee wrote:

> On Mar 8, 12:21 am, Charlie Wilkes >
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:46:00 -0800, Barry wrote:
>> > I like Googles view..
>>
>> >http://www.2and2.net/files/45ef85f961efb.jpg
>>
>> > Maybe you've never tweaked it like in pic...
>>
>> The layout is fine, but I want an offline reader that stores the feed
>> on my hdd so I can sort/search through numerous posts rapidly and not
>> have to worry about timeouts. It's been awhile since I've used Google
>> and maybe it's better, but it seems to cause a lot of confusion. I
>> noticed zinzee posted the same message three times, and I don't have to
>> wonder why... the confirmation timed out so she didn't think it went
>> through.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> D'oh, sorry!

It doesn't matter. I knew exactly what happened because I've done it
myself.

Charlie

cybercat
March 8th 07, 09:12 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...

>
> Agent is shareware, with a 30-day trial period after which it disables
> itself unless you pay the registration fee.

There is also Free Agent. However, I found even that, the pared-down
version of Agent, to have a paralyzing array of functions--much more than
what I needed.

>
> I happen to be more familiar with Agent, and I have never used Gravity,
> but Gravity has a good reputation.
>
> My advice would be to download and install Gravity and see how you like
> it, i.e., start with freeware and decide if it's good enough, because
> usually it is.
>

Gravity is simpler, and I find that more user-friendly. Simple minds like
simple solutions. :P

sheelagh
March 8th 07, 11:30 PM
On 8 Mar, 17:49, "zinzee" > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 7:00 pm, (Claude V. Lucas) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article . com>,
>
> > zinzee > wrote:
>
> > >Oh, you'd never believe what they charge in Manhattan! I was scouting
> > >around in the idea of taking in a Maine Coon as I am in love with the
> > >big furballs. With a reputable breeder, I believe average cost was
> > >around $800-$900. Of course, you have to get on a waiting list and
> > >then wait for the litter to come in. That could be months to maybe a
> > >year or more! However, if you walk into a certain pet store on
> > >Lexington and 86th, you can pick up your Maine Coon for about $1,600.
> > >Much more expensive, no idea if the cat has been tested to see if it
> > >has the genes that can lead to heart failure. Obviously coming from a
> > >kitten mill.
>
> > <snip>
>
> > I got Bubba
>
> >http://www.sonic.net/~claudel/Bubba/Bubba.html
>
> > from the pound for the adoption fee, shots and the first bag of food included.
>
> > 26Lbs and still growing.
>
> > No history though.
>
> > I still can't believe somebody gave him up, but you never know.
>
> So adorable!!! I love those cats!
>
> After a lot of looking around I actually decided that I didn't want to
> get a Maine Coon from a breeder. I decided to search petfinder for a
> Maine Coon that had been given up. Unfortunately, as of right now I
> won't be adopting any new cats because my beloved Mack C. may have a
> heart condition and I don't want to put any undue stress on him!
> Perhaps with proper medication he'll be stable enough for us to add to
> our family.
>
> When I originally saw Mack C., I actually liked his sister because she
> was all black. I never thought I'd want a cat with white fur because
> I work in restaurant and tend to wear a lot of darker colored
> clothes. Anyhow, he was so interactive and I just fell in love with
> him and I'm so glad I took him with me. Best to not let the color of
> a cat be the deciding factor when it comes to adoption! Anyhow,
> here's a pic of my little one. I need to put some other ones up as
> he's a much and loves the camera!http://www.thebighustle.com/mack2.jpg
>
> All the best,
> Heather- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am so sorry to hear your news regarding Mack C.

I can only tell you that we are sending soothing purrs your way,
express delivery.!!

We very much hope that he picks up with medication & stabilizes enough
to take the worry off your shoulders.
Make the most of that wonderful bond & live life for the moment,
Continued thoughts & Best Wishes too
Sheelagh x

sheelagh
March 8th 07, 11:37 PM
On 8 Mar, 19:49, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 06:07:00 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
>
> > OK, I have done the search & found both Forte News & Gravity... Now,
> > what I need is advice on which one would be best for me to use, in both
> > of your opinions please..?
> > I don't want to down load it only to find out that I have chosen the
> > lesser of the two..
> > Thanks for the advice too by the way
> > S;o)
>
> Agent is shareware, with a 30-day trial period after which it disables
> itself unless you pay the registration fee. Gravity is free.
>
> I happen to be more familiar with Agent, and I have never used Gravity,
> but Gravity has a good reputation.
>
> My advice would be to download and install Gravity and see how you like
> it, i.e., start with freeware and decide if it's good enough, because
> usually it is.
>
> You will have to set it up after you install it... that will require you
> to find out the name of your ISP's news server... usually something like
> nntp.ISPcompany.com or news.ISPcompany.com. Go to your ISP's support
> page for that information. Your ISP's server will probably require
> authentication, so you will have to enter in your acct. username and
> password in the appropriate fields, but you can set the newsreader to
> post under any name you like. Finally you will have to download a list
> of all the newsgroups your ISP carries, of which this group will almost
> certainly be included.
>
> It's a learning curve, but once you have it set up and are comfortable
> with it, you will see that it is a big improvement over Google.
>
> Charlie

It sure is a learning cure..!!
Thank you both for the advice though.

I will let you know when I have managed to down loaded (probably
Gravity, to suite my simple mind I think)
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read that, But I
appreciate what you meant..lol;o)
If I hit any walls, I hope you won't kind if I come back to you for
advice?
Thanks,
S;o)

zinzee
March 9th 07, 01:13 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 06:07:00 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
>>
>> OK, I have done the search & found both Forte News & Gravity... Now,
>> what I need is advice on which one would be best for me to use, in both
>> of your opinions please..?
>> I don't want to down load it only to find out that I have chosen the
>> lesser of the two..
>> Thanks for the advice too by the way
>> S;o)
>
> Agent is shareware, with a 30-day trial period after which it disables
> itself unless you pay the registration fee. Gravity is free.
>
> I happen to be more familiar with Agent, and I have never used Gravity,
> but Gravity has a good reputation.
>
> My advice would be to download and install Gravity and see how you like
> it, i.e., start with freeware and decide if it's good enough, because
> usually it is.
>
> You will have to set it up after you install it... that will require you
> to find out the name of your ISP's news server... usually something like
> nntp.ISPcompany.com or news.ISPcompany.com. Go to your ISP's support
> page for that information. Your ISP's server will probably require
> authentication, so you will have to enter in your acct. username and
> password in the appropriate fields, but you can set the newsreader to
> post under any name you like. Finally you will have to download a list
> of all the newsgroups your ISP carries, of which this group will almost
> certainly be included.
>
> It's a learning curve, but once you have it set up and are comfortable
> with it, you will see that it is a big improvement over Google.
>
> Charlie

I'm using outlook right now. What do you guys think of their news reader?
Seemed easiest because I didn't have to install anything new...

John Ross Mc Master
March 9th 07, 01:17 AM
On Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:13:08 -0500, "zinzee" >
wrote:

>
>"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 06:07:00 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, I have done the search & found both Forte News & Gravity... Now,
>>> what I need is advice on which one would be best for me to use, in both
>>> of your opinions please..?
>>> I don't want to down load it only to find out that I have chosen the
>>> lesser of the two..
>>> Thanks for the advice too by the way
>>> S;o)
>>
>> Agent is shareware, with a 30-day trial period after which it disables
>> itself unless you pay the registration fee. Gravity is free.
>>
>> I happen to be more familiar with Agent, and I have never used Gravity,
>> but Gravity has a good reputation.
>>
>> My advice would be to download and install Gravity and see how you like
>> it, i.e., start with freeware and decide if it's good enough, because
>> usually it is.
>>
>> You will have to set it up after you install it... that will require you
>> to find out the name of your ISP's news server... usually something like
>> nntp.ISPcompany.com or news.ISPcompany.com. Go to your ISP's support
>> page for that information. Your ISP's server will probably require
>> authentication, so you will have to enter in your acct. username and
>> password in the appropriate fields, but you can set the newsreader to
>> post under any name you like. Finally you will have to download a list
>> of all the newsgroups your ISP carries, of which this group will almost
>> certainly be included.
>>
>> It's a learning curve, but once you have it set up and are comfortable
>> with it, you will see that it is a big improvement over Google.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>I'm using outlook right now. What do you guys think of their news reader?
>Seemed easiest because I didn't have to install anything new...

Outlook is **** for binary groups. Learn to use Gravity or Agent.
>

zinzee
March 9th 07, 01:17 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 8, 12:49 pm, "zinzee" > wrote:
>> On Mar 7, 7:00 pm, (Claude V. Lucas) wrote:
>>
>
> What a sweetheart! He looks like a wonderful little kitty. I'm sure
> you love him to pieces- White fur and all! :)
>
> ~L
>

Indeed, thank you all for your warm wishes! He is currently resting on my
electrical bill and I hope he keeps it hidden from me for a whole week!

Best,
Heather

Charlie Wilkes
March 9th 07, 01:31 AM
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:37:30 -0800, sheelagh wrote:

> I will let you know when I have managed to down loaded (probably
> Gravity, to suite my simple mind I think) I didn't know whether to laugh
> or cry when I read that, But I appreciate what you meant..lol;o)
> If I hit any walls, I hope you won't kind if I come back to you for
> advice?
> Thanks,
> S;o)

I will be happy to help. I will even install it on my Windows partition
and try it out myself. This thread has made me curious about it.

Charlie

Lynne
March 9th 07, 01:33 AM
on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:55:27 GMT, AZ Nomad
> wrote:

> No argument there. Thanks for the news that AOL is ending its
> polution of usenet with its clueless users. Those on AOL who are
> actually savvy enough to know that USENET isn't the web can always use
> a third party service. I just looked up supernews.com (the one I used
> for a while in the early 90's) and they start at $4/month.

Too bad Google Groups picked up where AOL left off. And then some. *sigh*

--
Lynne

Lynne
March 9th 07, 01:34 AM
on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:19:12 GMT, "zinzee" > wrote:

> Also, I don't have experience with Bengals, but I've found that
> holding cats in a cradling position, like a baby, right from the start
> causes them to be comfortable in your arms. Don't hold them to the
> point of the cat freaking out, but rather do it in short sessions
> until slowly but surely you can cradle the cat for longer and longer
> periods of time. I've always done this with my cats because I think I
> wanted them to be my babies when I was younger. This worked well for
> my mom's dog, as well.

Oh, yes! And another thing, when you are holding them like a baby, use
your lips to "bathe" them like a mama cat would do (sans spit). Use quick
little strokes all around their face, head, chin. This is something my
cats have always loved. When my older one gets riled up, this calms him
right down.

--
Lynne

Charlie Wilkes
March 9th 07, 01:48 AM
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:13:08 -0500, zinzee wrote:
>
> I'm using outlook right now. What do you guys think of their news
> reader? Seemed easiest because I didn't have to install anything new...

I have never used Outlook. A lot of people do, and I assume it's better
than Google's web interface (which is what I thought you were using on
the basis of your posting headers).

I would say, download Gravity and try it out, and see if you like it
better than Outlook. I'm gonna give it a shot myself, just for kicks.

What is critically important to me is to be able to search through
threads and view the feed through multiple views, i.e., by thread, by
author, by the chronological order in which posts show up on the server,
etc. etc. I also want to be able to examine headers so I don't get
suckered when the **** starts to fly. And I want to be able to flag
threads so I don't miss replies if a group is getting 500 posts a day.
Agent does all these things, and so does my Linux newsreader, Pan. I
don't know how well Outlook handles those tasks.

Charlie

AZ Nomad
March 9th 07, 05:53 AM
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:33:10 -0600, Lynne > wrote:


>on Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:55:27 GMT, AZ Nomad
> wrote:

>> No argument there. Thanks for the news that AOL is ending its
>> polution of usenet with its clueless users. Those on AOL who are
>> actually savvy enough to know that USENET isn't the web can always use
>> a third party service. I just looked up supernews.com (the one I used
>> for a while in the early 90's) and they start at $4/month.

>Too bad Google Groups picked up where AOL left off. And then some. *sigh*

No problem. Both are killfiled entirely on my reader. I have
just three exceptions on that rule.

Barry
March 9th 07, 06:20 AM
On Mar 8, 7:31 pm, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:

> I will be happy to help. I will even install it on my Windows partition
> and try it out myself. This thread has made me curious about it.
>
> Charlie

I installed ubuntu on VPC. trying it out. ubuntu is doing 133 security
updates, as I type this.

I like it... I decided to do all the updates.

Every time I run into one of these os', I think to myself... Maybe I
can take one apart and put a new look on it.. and make money like
ubuntu people do.

That would be nice, to have my own operating system

sell it to suckers