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Snittens
April 25th 07, 02:53 AM
This is in regards to my brother and SIL's cat, Chloe. She is a four year
old spayed female, was in good health. I don't have all the exact test
results and such. My main question is whether anyone has done or has heard
of doing chemotherapy when cancer is not a definite.

To complicate matters, this started back with the pet food recall. Chloe
had eaten some recalled food. As soon as the news broke, they took her off
the food. She did vomit, but never appeared very ill. B&SIL took her to
the vet right away for a check. First it was found that she had elevated
calcium in her urine and protein levels. To make a long story short, she
has been in and out of the vet's, then to a speciality vet for complete
diagnostics. She has had an endoscopy which showed nothing. She is on
several medications (I don't know which), and on sub-q fluids. Her protein
levels today were double what they had been at the last check, so the vet
thinks it's cancer, but no one can say where it is coming from. The
recommendation is to start chemo, and if it is cancer, then the chemo will
take care of it.

If it were my cat, I am not so sure I would do this. Has anyone ever done
chemo blind, so to speak? They haven't decided, but are leaning towards it.
Chloe is acting normal and healthy.

Thanks for any input.

Kelly

cindys
April 25th 07, 03:13 AM
"Snittens" > wrote in message
...
> This is in regards to my brother and SIL's cat, Chloe. She is a four
> year old spayed female, was in good health. I don't have all the exact
> test results and such. My main question is whether anyone has done or has
> heard of doing chemotherapy when cancer is not a definite.
>
> To complicate matters, this started back with the pet food recall. Chloe
> had eaten some recalled food. As soon as the news broke, they took her
> off the food. She did vomit, but never appeared very ill. B&SIL took her
> to the vet right away for a check. First it was found that she had
> elevated calcium in her urine and protein levels. To make a long story
> short, she has been in and out of the vet's, then to a speciality vet for
> complete diagnostics. She has had an endoscopy which showed nothing. She
> is on several medications (I don't know which), and on sub-q fluids. Her
> protein levels today were double what they had been at the last check, so
> the vet thinks it's cancer, but no one can say where it is coming from.
> The recommendation is to start chemo, and if it is cancer, then the chemo
> will take care of it.
>
> If it were my cat, I am not so sure I would do this. Has anyone ever done
> chemo blind, so to speak? They haven't decided, but are leaning towards
> it. Chloe is acting normal and healthy.
------------
Chemotherapy is not medicine. It is poison. The way it works is that it
hones in on cells that are multiplying rapidly and kills them, but it kills
plenty of healthy cells too. There are many, many nasty side effects.
Additionally, chemotherapeutic agents are specific to the type of cancer,
meaning, the agents which are used to treat leukemia are not the same agents
that would be used to treat lung cancer. And generally, in humans anyway,
chemotherapeutic agents are used in regimens and combinations of multiple
agents. Single agents have generally been shown to be ineffective in terms
of providing any kind of a "cure."

I think it would be considered malpractice to treat a human with
chemotherapeutic agents when there wasn't an actual diagnosis of cancer,
much less not a clue as to what kind it was. If this were my cat, I would
say no to chemotherapy. The vet doesn't have any business saying "if it is
cancer, the chemo will take care it" without knowing if it really is cancer,
and if so, what kind. The number one cure for cancer remains blunt excision
(i.e. surgical removal of the tumor). If it were my kitty, I would go
elsewhere and/or go for more testing. Cancer is not a rule-out diagnosis
(meaning, that you don't assume that the diagnosis is cancer just because
other things have been ruled out). Right now, Chloe is acting healthy and
normal. After chemo, she will be sick and weak. She will be immunosuppressed
and vulnerable to every bacterium floating in the air.She could become
extremely ill with countless other diseases (and even die) just because her
body will be too weak to fight things off. Does your brother want to put her
through that without even knowing what's wrong with her?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Snittens
April 25th 07, 03:45 AM
"cindys" > wrote
Does your brother want to put her
> through that without even knowing what's wrong with her?
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>

I know they would never do anything they thought would hurt her. They are
both very agonized about the whole situation. He said the vet (oncologist)
assured him there would be no ill effects, it is going to be a small shot,
it's not like they are putting her through a whole course of chemo. I don't
have any personal experience with this vet hospital. It's some sort of
super duper speciality place, I don't know where else they would go for
another opinion. After talking to him again, I am honestly not sure what I
would do.

Kelly

cindys
April 25th 07, 04:02 AM
"Snittens" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote
> Does your brother want to put her
>> through that without even knowing what's wrong with her?
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>>
>
> I know they would never do anything they thought would hurt her.

If it sounded like that, I apologize. My question was intended to be
rhetorical, not a judgment on your brother and SIL. They obviously love
Chloe very much or they wouldn't be going through all this.

>They are both very agonized about the whole situation. He said the vet
>(oncologist) assured him there would be no ill effects, it is going to be a
>small shot, it's not like they are putting her through a whole course of
>chemo. I don't have any personal experience with this vet hospital. It's
>some sort of super duper speciality place, I don't know where else they
>would go for another opinion.

When I had a question regarding my cat's CRF (chronic renal failure)
treatment plan, I was able to download a 100-page research paper on the
subject. At the time, somebody also posted a special phone number for
Cornell where a person can have a phone consultation. Amongst other things,
Cornell's School of Veterinary Medicine is highly respected. They would be
able to give you a much more educated opinion about this than I can. I ended
up not phoning Cornell only because I was able to glean the information I
needed elsewhere, and I don't remember who posted the number (perhaps the
person can speak up again). The person who posted the phone number said that
the cost for a phone *consultation* was $55.

>After talking to him again, I am honestly not sure what I would do.

I wish them the best of luck and whatever they decide, I hope that Chloe has
a full recovery.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
> Kelly
>
>

22brix
April 25th 07, 05:13 AM
"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> When I had a question regarding my cat's CRF (chronic renal failure)
> treatment plan, I was able to download a 100-page research paper on the
> subject. At the time, somebody also posted a special phone number for
> Cornell where a person can have a phone consultation. Amongst other
> things, Cornell's School of Veterinary Medicine is highly respected. They
> would be able to give you a much more educated opinion about this than I
> can. I ended up not phoning Cornell only because I was able to glean the
> information I needed elsewhere, and I don't remember who posted the number
> (perhaps the person can speak up again). The person who posted the phone
> number said that the cost for a phone *consultation* was $55.
>


http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/camuti.htm

cindys
April 25th 07, 12:56 PM
"22brix" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> When I had a question regarding my cat's CRF (chronic renal failure)
>> treatment plan, I was able to download a 100-page research paper on the
>> subject. At the time, somebody also posted a special phone number for
>> Cornell where a person can have a phone consultation. Amongst other
>> things, Cornell's School of Veterinary Medicine is highly respected.
>> They would be able to give you a much more educated opinion about this
>> than I can. I ended up not phoning Cornell only because I was able to
>> glean the information I needed elsewhere, and I don't remember who posted
>> the number (perhaps the person can speak up again). The person who posted
>> the phone number said that the cost for a phone *consultation* was $55.
>>
>
>
> http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/camuti.htm
>
Thank you!
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

cindys
April 25th 07, 01:30 PM
"Snittens" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote
> Does your brother want to put her
>> through that without even knowing what's wrong with her?
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>>
>
> I know they would never do anything they thought would hurt her. They are
> both very agonized about the whole situation. He said the vet
> (oncologist) assured him there would be no ill effects, it is going to be
> a small shot, it's not like they are putting her through a whole course of
> chemo. I don't have any personal experience with this vet hospital. It's
> some sort of super duper speciality place, I don't know where else they
> would go for another opinion. After talking to him again, I am honestly
> not sure what I would do.
------------
Kelly, I just wanted to add one more thing - an experience I had many years
ago-- I had a cat that used to vomit a lot (as many cats do). My cat was a
purebreed Abyssianian (we got her as a stray). When I brought her in for
regular checkup (she was probably around two years' old at the time), I
asked the young vet why did my kitty throw up so much? The vet said she
didn't know for sure but my cat could have renal amyloidosis, a terminal
disease that is often particular to Abyssinian cats. The vet proceeded to
explain that they currently had a cat in their veterinary hospital who was
dying from renal amyloidosis. I was devastated. I went home and cried my
eyes out. For two weeks, I cried my eyes out that my beloved Molly was
dying. ("Logic flies out the window when there is an emotional agenda").
Then, I finally stopped crying and looked in the eyes of my apparently very
healthy, happy cat. By this time I had requested all sorts of information
from Cornell about renal amyloidosis (I didn't have a phone consultation - -
I just requested information) and was on the verge of putting Molly on a
homemade special kidney diet. When I finally got hold of myself, I realized
how stupid this all was -- Vomiting is not a diagnosis ! Some cats vomit
because they have fur balls or tummy aches. I took the cat to another local
vet who had a special interest in Abyssianian cats and she reassured me that
my cat was perfectly healthy and did not have renal amyloidosis. Molly lived
to the ripe old age of 17 years and never had renal amyloidosis. There is a
famous saying that every doctor learns in medical school: "When you hear
hoofbeats, think of horses" (i.e. not zebras). This means that you consider
the simplest explanation first.

You've told us that Chloe has elevated calcium and protein in her urine.
These are findings, NOT a diagnosis. And if she is on several medications,
what's to say that the medications themselves couldn't have caused this or
contributed to this? All medications are metabolized either through the
liver or the kidney. If I were your brother, I would run, not walk, to the
Cornell website Wendy provided, make the phone call, and discuss with the
authorities at Cornell what are some possible causes of calciuria and
proteinuria. In general, calciuria and proteinuria are symptoms of *kidney
disease*, not cancer. As I stated before, chemotherapy is poison. Giving
Chloe chemotherapy (poison) could make this situation so much worse.

I am stunned to find myself agreeing with Norman...Do you honestly believe
that it is possible to cure an unknown cancer (which may or may not actually
be cancer) with one small shot?

I know what it feels like to be worried sick and confused about what's wrong
with your cat. It impairs your ability to think logically. Please tell your
brother to take a deep breath and think logically. The high calcium and high
protein in urine are much more likely related to kidney disease (the horses)
not cancer (the zebras). Giving the cat *a small shot of chemotherapy* is
IMHO a very bad idea without a diagnosis and really could potentially do a
great deal of damage.
Please keep us updated.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

CatNipped
April 25th 07, 02:08 PM
"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Snittens" > wrote in message
> ...
>> This is in regards to my brother and SIL's cat, Chloe. She is a four
>> year old spayed female, was in good health. I don't have all the exact
>> test results and such. My main question is whether anyone has done or
>> has heard of doing chemotherapy when cancer is not a definite.
>>
>> To complicate matters, this started back with the pet food recall. Chloe
>> had eaten some recalled food. As soon as the news broke, they took her
>> off the food. She did vomit, but never appeared very ill. B&SIL took
>> her to the vet right away for a check. First it was found that she had
>> elevated calcium in her urine and protein levels. To make a long story
>> short, she has been in and out of the vet's, then to a speciality vet for
>> complete diagnostics. She has had an endoscopy which showed nothing.
>> She is on several medications (I don't know which), and on sub-q fluids.
>> Her protein levels today were double what they had been at the last
>> check, so the vet thinks it's cancer, but no one can say where it is
>> coming from. The recommendation is to start chemo, and if it is cancer,
>> then the chemo will take care of it.
>>
>> If it were my cat, I am not so sure I would do this. Has anyone ever
>> done chemo blind, so to speak? They haven't decided, but are leaning
>> towards it. Chloe is acting normal and healthy.
> ------------
> Chemotherapy is not medicine. It is poison. The way it works is that it
> hones in on cells that are multiplying rapidly and kills them, but it
> kills plenty of healthy cells too. There are many, many nasty side
> effects. Additionally, chemotherapeutic agents are specific to the type of
> cancer, meaning, the agents which are used to treat leukemia are not the
> same agents that would be used to treat lung cancer. And generally, in
> humans anyway, chemotherapeutic agents are used in regimens and
> combinations of multiple agents. Single agents have generally been shown
> to be ineffective in terms of providing any kind of a "cure."
>
> I think it would be considered malpractice to treat a human with
> chemotherapeutic agents when there wasn't an actual diagnosis of cancer,
> much less not a clue as to what kind it was. If this were my cat, I would
> say no to chemotherapy. The vet doesn't have any business saying "if it is
> cancer, the chemo will take care it" without knowing if it really is
> cancer, and if so, what kind. The number one cure for cancer remains blunt
> excision (i.e. surgical removal of the tumor). If it were my kitty, I
> would go elsewhere and/or go for more testing. Cancer is not a rule-out
> diagnosis (meaning, that you don't assume that the diagnosis is cancer
> just because other things have been ruled out). Right now, Chloe is acting
> healthy and normal. After chemo, she will be sick and weak. She will be
> immunosuppressed and vulnerable to every bacterium floating in the air.She
> could become extremely ill with countless other diseases (and even die)
> just because her body will be too weak to fight things off. Does your
> brother want to put her through that without even knowing what's wrong
> with her?
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

I'd have to agree with Cindy.

Coincidently, on "House" last night (yes, I know this is not medical school,
it's just a TV show) they had a case that, after they ruled out a lot of
other things, they assumed was cancer and treated the woman with full-body
radiation. It turned out that all she had was a staff infection from a
scratch caused by her bra - *but* with her immune system not working, she
died from the simple staff infection.

All that to say I would *never* allow someone to make my healthy cat sicd on
an *assumption* of cancer.

Hugs,

CatNipped

cindys
April 25th 07, 05:19 PM
"Snittens" > wrote in message
...
> This is in regards to my brother and SIL's cat, Chloe. She is a four
> year old spayed female, was in good health. I don't have all the exact
> test results and such. My main question is whether anyone has done or has
> heard of doing chemotherapy when cancer is not a definite.
----------
Kelly, one more thing....Chloe is only four years old. This is very young
for a cat to have cancer. Has her urine been tested for cyanuric acid (the
melamine derivative that's been found in the urine of cats that have eaten
the melamine-tainted food) ? You stated that Chloe had *eaten some of the
recalled food*. If Chloe hasn't been tested, Cornell should be able to give
your brother the name of a lab that does this testing. Your brother should
insist that Chloe's urine and/or blood samples be sent for testing before
anything else is done to her. When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses. If I
had to make a bet, I would sadly guess that Chloe is suffering from kidney
damage because of melamine poisoning :-( If so, the last thing she needs in
the whole wide world is to additionally be injected with a chemotherapeutic
poison.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Snittens
April 25th 07, 06:17 PM
"cindys" > wrote
> ----------
> Kelly, one more thing....Chloe is only four years old. This is very young
> for a cat to have cancer. Has her urine been tested for cyanuric acid (the
> melamine derivative that's been found in the urine of cats that have eaten
> the melamine-tainted food) ? You stated that Chloe had *eaten some of the
> recalled food*. If Chloe hasn't been tested, Cornell should be able to
> give your brother the name of a lab that does this testing. Your brother
> should insist that Chloe's urine and/or blood samples be sent for testing
> before anything else is done to her. When you hear hoofbeats, think of
> horses. If I had to make a bet, I would sadly guess that Chloe is
> suffering from kidney damage because of melamine poisoning :-( If so, the
> last thing she needs in the whole wide world is to additionally be
> injected with a chemotherapeutic poison.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>

Cindy, thank you very much for your help and information. I am compiling an
email for my bro & SIL, I will also urge them to get a consult from Cornell.
They've already spent thousands, what's another $55? It certainly can't
hurt. I know they want to do what's best, but I think maybe they are acting
out of fear, like if we don't do this, she's going to develop full blown
cancer and die.
My brother said she has made a complete recovery from the kidney disease
from eating the food. The elevated protein reslut was from a Parathyroid
Hormone Peptide test that was performed, I'm not sure what that is.

Thanks again,
Kelly

Snittens
April 25th 07, 06:19 PM
"CatNipped" > wrote
>
> Coincidently, on "House" last night (yes, I know this is not medical
> school, it's just a TV show) they had a case that, after they ruled out a
> lot of other things, they assumed was cancer and treated the woman with
> full-body radiation. It turned out that all she had was a staff infection
> from a scratch caused by her bra - *but* with her immune system not
> working, she died from the simple staff infection.
>
> All that to say I would *never* allow someone to make my healthy cat sicd
> on an *assumption* of cancer.
>

Actually, I was watching House as I wrote this last night, and I did think
"this sounds like a case for House - The Vet". A seemingly healthy cat has
abnormal bloodwork and everyone assumes cancer. Throw in the pet food thing
for a red herring.

Kelly

cindys
April 25th 07, 07:44 PM
"Snittens" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "cindys" > wrote
>> ----------
>> Kelly, one more thing....Chloe is only four years old. This is very young
>> for a cat to have cancer. Has her urine been tested for cyanuric acid
>> (the melamine derivative that's been found in the urine of cats that have
>> eaten the melamine-tainted food) ? You stated that Chloe had *eaten some
>> of the recalled food*. If Chloe hasn't been tested, Cornell should be
>> able to give your brother the name of a lab that does this testing. Your
>> brother should insist that Chloe's urine and/or blood samples be sent for
>> testing before anything else is done to her. When you hear hoofbeats,
>> think of horses. If I had to make a bet, I would sadly guess that Chloe
>> is suffering from kidney damage because of melamine poisoning :-( If so,
>> the last thing she needs in the whole wide world is to additionally be
>> injected with a chemotherapeutic poison.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>>
>
> Cindy, thank you very much for your help and information. I am compiling
> an email for my bro & SIL, I will also urge them to get a consult from
> Cornell. They've already spent thousands, what's another $55? It
> certainly can't hurt. I know they want to do what's best, but I think
> maybe they are acting out of fear, like if we don't do this, she's going
> to develop full blown cancer and die.
> My brother said she has made a complete recovery from the kidney disease
> from eating the food. The elevated protein reslut was from a Parathyroid
> Hormone Peptide test that was performed, I'm not sure what that is.
-------
I spent some time netsurfing for information on this for you. One of the
things I discovered was that Royal Canin originally pulled their dog food in
February because 24 dogs were found to be suffering from hypercalcemia (too
much calcium in the blood - just like Chloe). I also discovered that the
mechanism by which the melamine/cyanuric acid does this kidney damage is not
well understood. I also discovered that the extent to which the cyanuric
acid/melamine could be damaging other internal organs is also not
understood.

Go to the following link for an Oregon veterinary lab that does the melamine
testing for $200:

http://www.oregonvma.org/news/menufoodsdvm.asp

This is way out of my league, but for a vet to jump to the conclusion that
an ostensibly healthy four-year old cat has cancer (just because he hasn't
been able to figure out what's wrong with her) and to haphazardly inject her
with a single dose of some chemotherapeutic agent that in all likelihood
wouldn't be sufficient to cure a real cancer but could do a lot of damage to
a kitty who is sick with some as-yet undiagnosed disease, is in my humble
opinion, extremely ill-advised. I still think this is related to the
contaminated food. Please keep us posted.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.