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View Full Version : Help, my cat is a serial killer!


Garret Swayne
June 16th 07, 05:47 PM
My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO, take
it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of ****es
him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?

-Garret
garret at garretswayne dot com

Matthew
June 16th 07, 06:01 PM
"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
> that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>
> -Garret
> garret at garretswayne dot com
>

Do you realize that this is a normal behavior for a cat. Bringing you a
prize is a honor and a sign of affection. Also many animals do this when
they have not been properly show by the parent how to kill.

If this is really bothering you keep the cat inside Cats and other animals
are predators you can't take the hunting instinct out of an animal it will
always be there

Alison[_2_]
June 16th 07, 06:40 PM
"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home
> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>
> -Garret
> garret at garretswayne dot com >>


You could put a liberator collar on him though that won't help with slugs
and things.
http://www.liberators.com.au/

Cats are hunters so is natural for them to bring their prey home.
Alison

Martin
June 16th 07, 08:25 PM
Bells reduce the catch - mine's a 7 bell cat

> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>

William Graham
June 16th 07, 10:24 PM
"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
> that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>
> -Garret
> garret at garretswayne dot com
>
Well, at least he doesn't leave their heads in your refrigerator.....

You might try getting him some cat toys....Like things dangling from strings
that jump around when he pulls on them, for example.....

William Graham
June 16th 07, 10:29 PM
"Alison" > wrote in message
...
> "Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home
>> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
>> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
>> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
>> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
>> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
>> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
>> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
>> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
>> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
>> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
>> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>>
>> -Garret
>> garret at garretswayne dot com >>
>
>
> You could put a liberator collar on him though that won't help with slugs
> and things.
> http://www.liberators.com.au/
>
> Cats are hunters so is natural for them to bring their prey home.
> Alison
>
>
Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the
bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on
his pillow........:^)

The Horny Goat
June 17th 07, 02:11 AM
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:29:09 -0700, "William Graham"
> wrote:

>Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the
>bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on
>his pillow........:^)

One of the defining moments of my teen years was when our cat brought
my mother a bird. It was 30 years ago and I still remember her
over-reaction even though she had had cats in her life since girlhood.

William Graham
June 17th 07, 02:20 AM
"The Horny Goat" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:29:09 -0700, "William Graham"
> > wrote:
>
>>Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the
>>bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on
>>his pillow........:^)
>
> One of the defining moments of my teen years was when our cat brought
> my mother a bird. It was 30 years ago and I still remember her
> over-reaction even though she had had cats in her life since girlhood.

Yeah...I'm always afraid I will insult them if I don't show
pleasure....After all, they are giving you a gift to pay you back for all
the food you give them....When you go to the supermarket, I figure they
think you are out hunting....And then, when they get something for you, if
you just throw it away, they think they're worthless. (I always give them
credit for thinking like we do, even though I know it's probably not true.)
So, I make believe I am happy, and am saving it for later......

Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Hayfever Edition
June 17th 07, 05:59 AM
"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
> that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>
> -Garret
> garret at garretswayne dot com
>

Not to be insensitive, but that's what cats do. Cats are some of the most
efficient, instinctual, predators, and five thousand years of domestication
hasn't tamed that gene.

Adam Helberg
June 17th 07, 08:26 AM
"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey that he
> catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody lifeless bird in my
> living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a lizard. Or a mouse. Or these
> really weird worms that are not snails or slugs, but look like snails without their
> shell. He also brings in these really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to
> death, leaving large insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with
> a feline serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO, take it from
> his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of ****es him off, but
> I'm not sure what else to do.
> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>
> -Garret
> garret at garretswayne dot com

I use a bell on my Freddy, which helps. Also I don't let him out in the dark or early
morning when he's most likely to hunt.

Adam

Garret Swayne
June 17th 07, 12:58 PM
Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are a
lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting were:

-to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
(This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
about this, from valid scientific sources.

The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat to
a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if
so, how?

-Garret


"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
> that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>
> -Garret
> garret at garretswayne dot com
>

Barbara
June 17th 07, 01:54 PM
I have some stray cats in the neighborhood who hang out in my yard, and when
the birds come around to eat their food, they just look at them like
"eh...you again..ok". My cats indoors, start "chirping" at them. Not sure if
they'd know what to do with them if they were allowed out.

--
A hug a day keeps the blues away :D
"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
> But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
> pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are
> a lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in
> our kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting
> were:
>
> -to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
> (This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)
>
> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
> "ungracious".
>
> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
> cherish? If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart
> enough to figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather
> than a dead carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to
> suggest that they really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And
> that by my expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the
> offensive behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's
> what would encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being
> educated about this, from valid scientific sources.
>
> The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
> teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
> maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
> or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
> smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat
> to a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion,
> and if so, how?
>
> -Garret
>
>
> "Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home
>> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
>> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
>> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
>> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
>> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
>> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
>> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
>> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
>> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
>> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
>> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>>
>> -Garret
>> garret at garretswayne dot com
>>
>
>

Dan Espen
June 17th 07, 04:51 PM
"Garret Swayne" > writes:

> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
> "ungracious".
>
> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?

I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.

Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
food for kittens.

After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.

Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
to operate.


We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
Small cat, really large bird.

KMP
June 17th 07, 05:06 PM
Garret Swayne wrote:
> Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
> But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
> pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are a
> lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
> kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting were:
>
> -to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
> (This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)
>
> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
> "ungracious".
>
> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
> expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
> behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
> encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
> about this, from valid scientific sources.
>
> The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
> teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
> maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
> or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
> smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat to
> a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if
> so, how?
>
> -Garret


My cat was traumatized by a dog when she was a little bitty and shows
no mercy to anything smaller than her - including my hand. So it might
have to be assaulted by something smaller to realize that brawn doesn't
always work. Just sayin'....
Kathy

William Graham
June 17th 07, 10:15 PM
"Dan Espen" > wrote in message
...
> "Garret Swayne" > writes:
>
>> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
>> it's
>> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
>> "ungracious".
>>
>> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
>> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
>> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
>> cherish?
>> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
>> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
>> dead
>> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
>> they
>> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?
>
> I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
> As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.
>
> Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
> That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
> Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
> Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
> have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
> food for kittens.
>
> After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
> and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.
>
> Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
> It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
> It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
> to operate.
>
>
> We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
> Small cat, really large bird.
>
Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was almost
killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the cat
was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to our
bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird
could get her......but it was a close call......

Baldoni XXV
June 17th 07, 11:31 PM
William Graham submitted this idea :
> "Alison" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
>>> that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
>>> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
>>> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
>>> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
>>> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
>>> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
>>> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
>>> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
>>> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
>>> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
>>> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> -Garret
>>> garret at garretswayne dot com >>
>>
>>
>> You could put a liberator collar on him though that won't help with slugs
>> and things.
>> http://www.liberators.com.au/
>>
>> Cats are hunters so is natural for them to bring their prey home.
>> Alison
>>
>>
> Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the
> bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on his
> pillow........:^)

My female cat does all the hunting.

My lazy tomcat then stuffs dead mice under the furniture.

--
Count Baldoni

BALDONI REX ROMANORUM

Baldoni XXV
June 17th 07, 11:32 PM
on 17/06/2007, William Graham supposed :
> "The Horny Goat" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:29:09 -0700, "William Graham"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the
>>>bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on
>>>his pillow........:^)
>>
>> One of the defining moments of my teen years was when our cat brought
>> my mother a bird. It was 30 years ago and I still remember her
>> over-reaction even though she had had cats in her life since girlhood.
>
> Yeah...I'm always afraid I will insult them if I don't show pleasure....After
> all, they are giving you a gift to pay you back for all the food you give
> them....When you go to the supermarket, I figure they think you are out
> hunting....

I never thought of it like that.

--
Count Baldoni

BALDONI REX ROMANORUM

Lis
June 18th 07, 07:05 PM
On Jun 17, 7:58 am, "Garret Swayne" > wrote:
> Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
> But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
> pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are a
> lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
> kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting were:
>
> -to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
> (This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)
>
> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
> "ungracious".
>
> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
> expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
> behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
> encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
> about this, from valid scientific sources.

Cats are social animals; they're not pack hunters, but they are social
animals. Feral and semi-feral colonies have been videotaped; females
share prey with their offspring and with their sisters. They not only
babysit but actually nurse each other's kittens. Even the males, who
rove more, will sometimes share prey with the resident females.

When we bring cats into our homes, we make ourselvs part of their
"colony," their social grouping. And they respond to us in some ways
as if they were our kittens, in some ways as if we were their kittens,
in some ways as if we were their siblings. Sharing prey is a normal
and natural part of that. And no, even though sharing is normal for
them and they are bringing us a gift when they bring us prey, they are
not smart enough to figure out that it's not the kind of "gift" we
want--nor would they have much ability to bring us a different kind of
gift even if they did figure it out. It's not like they can take their
American Express card and pick up something nice at Nordstrom's, after
all. What they do is hunt, and they share with us what they catch. It
_should_ give you a warm glow.

It's too bad Zack has apparently focused on birds as his preferred
prey, rather than rodents. You do want to prevent or discourage that,
if you can. Keep him indoors, or put bells on his collar.

> The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
> teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
> maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
> or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
> smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat to
> a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if
> so, how?

No, you can't teach your cat compassion for members of its natural
prey species. They're cats, the most efficient predators on the planet
(number of species killed, number of individuals killed, hunting
success rate--cats are deadly hunters.) Sharing with colony members is
part of their repertoire; compassion for prey species is not. A cat
traumatized by a larger predator will not feel any sense of
identification with its own prey; it will just be a traumatized cat.

The most effective way of preventing your cat from killing the local
bird population is by keeping him indoors. If that's not practical,
put bells on his collar, and that will reduce his success rate.

Lis

Dave F
June 18th 07, 09:51 PM
"Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
> that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>
> -Garret
> garret at garretswayne dot com

I just read through this thread and the ignorance just amazes me. Read the
following and then do the right thing and keep your cat indoors where it
belongs.

http://www.wildliferescueleague.org/cats.html

http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/

Dave

William Graham
June 19th 07, 02:43 AM
"Lis" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Jun 17, 7:58 am, "Garret Swayne" > wrote:
>> Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
>> But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
>> pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are
>> a
>> lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
>> kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting
>> were:
>>
>> -to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy
>> approach
>> (This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)
>>
>> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
>> it's
>> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
>> "ungracious".
>>
>> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
>> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
>> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
>> cherish?
>> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
>> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
>> dead
>> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
>> they
>> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
>> expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
>> behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
>> encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
>> about this, from valid scientific sources.
>
> Cats are social animals; they're not pack hunters, but they are social
> animals. Feral and semi-feral colonies have been videotaped; females
> share prey with their offspring and with their sisters. They not only
> babysit but actually nurse each other's kittens. Even the males, who
> rove more, will sometimes share prey with the resident females.
>
> When we bring cats into our homes, we make ourselvs part of their
> "colony," their social grouping. And they respond to us in some ways
> as if they were our kittens, in some ways as if we were their kittens,
> in some ways as if we were their siblings. Sharing prey is a normal
> and natural part of that. And no, even though sharing is normal for
> them and they are bringing us a gift when they bring us prey, they are
> not smart enough to figure out that it's not the kind of "gift" we
> want--nor would they have much ability to bring us a different kind of
> gift even if they did figure it out. It's not like they can take their
> American Express card and pick up something nice at Nordstrom's, after
> all. What they do is hunt, and they share with us what they catch. It
> _should_ give you a warm glow.
>
> It's too bad Zack has apparently focused on birds as his preferred
> prey, rather than rodents. You do want to prevent or discourage that,
> if you can. Keep him indoors, or put bells on his collar.
>
>> The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
>> teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
>> maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a
>> dog
>> or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with
>> the
>> smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat
>> to
>> a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and
>> if
>> so, how?
>
> No, you can't teach your cat compassion for members of its natural
> prey species. They're cats, the most efficient predators on the planet
> (number of species killed, number of individuals killed, hunting
> success rate--cats are deadly hunters.) Sharing with colony members is
> part of their repertoire; compassion for prey species is not. A cat
> traumatized by a larger predator will not feel any sense of
> identification with its own prey; it will just be a traumatized cat.
>
> The most effective way of preventing your cat from killing the local
> bird population is by keeping him indoors. If that's not practical,
> put bells on his collar, and that will reduce his success rate.
>
> Lis
>
Yes....Our cats think of the raccoons we feed as part of the family, but
then, the raccoons are big enough to take care of themselves, and so it's
really the raccoons who don't kill the cats that I should be talking about.
The birds, even though we feed them, are considered fair game by the
cats....fortunately, the cats aren't fast enough to kill very many of
them.....I can only remember about three or four birds total in over 10
years, and we have fed many thousands of birds all Winter during that same
time period, so the birds are way ahead....We are careful to hang the bird
feeders out of the reach of the cats......Well fed cats aren't very good at
hunting.....It's not a matter of life and death for them, so they just play
at it.....It's significant that our feral cat never hunts for birds (or
anything else) at all. He has become totally dependent on our cat food, and
couldn't care less if he never had to hunt for anything again.
I doubt if you could teach your cats compassion....They have identified
over 100 different sounds cats make to communicate, and compassion is not
one of them.......

William Graham
June 19th 07, 02:54 AM
"Dave F" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home
>> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
>> lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
>> lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
>> slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
>> really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
>> insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
>> serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
>> captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
>> take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
>> ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
>> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>>
>> -Garret
>> garret at garretswayne dot com
>
> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just amazes me. Read the
> following and then do the right thing and keep your cat indoors where it
> belongs.
>
> http://www.wildliferescueleague.org/cats.html
>
> http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/
>
> Dave
>
I have read your articles, and I disagree 100%. Cats were created to roam,
and I wouldn't keep one locked up indoors on a bet. Not only that, but if
"100's of millions of birds" are killed every year by cats, there must be
trillions of cats out there with no food to eat.....My four cats haven't
killed 1/2 dozen birds in the last 10 years. For one thing, birds are very
hard to kill....Snakes, lizards and field mice are much easier, and even the
feral cat lived on mice and voles for the first couple of years of his life
before we started feeding him.
But, when you get right down to it, birds are very low on the order of
life, and they are among the most heartless living things in existence. I
couldn't care less how many birds that my cats kill, to tell the truth. Have
you ever seen a bunch of chickens peck one of their number to death? - If
you had, you would gain a vastly different perspective on birds. Sure, they
are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful. But that doesn't make
them any more compassionate than any other animal....
Your article greatly exaggerates the number of birds that fall prey to
outside cats.....It only serves as an excuse for teenagers (or those with a
teenage mentality) to kill cats.

Dave F
June 19th 07, 03:47 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Dave F" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Garret Swayne" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home
>>> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a
>>> bloody lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!)
>>> Or a lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not
>>> snails or slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also
>>> brings in these really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death,
>>> leaving large insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living
>>> with a feline serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's
>>> bringing in his captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give
>>> him a stern NO, take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release
>>> it. This kind of ****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
>>> I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> -Garret
>>> garret at garretswayne dot com
>>
>> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just amazes me. Read
>> the following and then do the right thing and keep your cat indoors where
>> it belongs.
>>
>> http://www.wildliferescueleague.org/cats.html
>>
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/
>>
>> Dave
>>
> I have read your articles, and I disagree 100%. Cats were created to roam,
> and I wouldn't keep one locked up indoors on a bet. Not only that, but if
> "100's of millions of birds" are killed every year by cats, there must be
> trillions of cats out there with no food to eat.....My four cats haven't
> killed 1/2 dozen birds in the last 10 years. For one thing, birds are very
> hard to kill....Snakes, lizards and field mice are much easier, and even
> the feral cat lived on mice and voles for the first couple of years of his
> life before we started feeding him.
> But, when you get right down to it, birds are very low on the order of
> life, and they are among the most heartless living things in existence. I
> couldn't care less how many birds that my cats kill, to tell the truth.
> Have you ever seen a bunch of chickens peck one of their number to
> death? - If you had, you would gain a vastly different perspective on
> birds. Sure, they are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful. But
> that doesn't make them any more compassionate than any other animal....
> Your article greatly exaggerates the number of birds that fall prey to
> outside cats.....It only serves as an excuse for teenagers (or those with
> a teenage mentality) to kill cats.

You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they get
to get away from you.

Dave

Upscale
June 19th 07, 06:37 AM
"Dave F" > wrote in message
> > birds. Sure, they are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful.
But
> > that doesn't make them any more compassionate than any other animal....

> You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they get
> to get away from you.

Then I must be a moron too. Much as I've disagreed with William in the
past, I have little disregard for birds too aside from the insects they
might eat. Try going down to the islands in Toronto sometime and see how
long it takes you to lose any consideration for birds. Trekking out to a
picnic table with the family means walking very carefully through the goose
****. And don't forget to bring all the cleansers and paper towel, because
the picnic table will be saturated. They should all be shot, cooked and fed
to the homeless population in the city. Sitting out at your picnic table for
a few seconds means you'll get covered in pigeon ****. They're nothing more
than flying diapers. Any chance of enjoying the outdoors will inevitably be
ruined in minutes by birds. For the first ten years in my apartment, the
balcony was virtually unusable because of the pigeon ****. Cleaning the
balcony meant one day of usage and then be prepared to clean again.

Birds of all types should be hunted, shot, poisoned and everything else that
gets rid of them. So yeah, I'm a moron too.

William Graham
June 19th 07, 08:02 AM
"Dave F" > wrote in message
. ..
>

You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they get
> to get away from you.
>
> Dave
I am amazed and astounded by your incredible ability to argue your
point....You must have been the capitan of your debating team in college.
Your ability to discuss this issue is almost as good as your ability to
evaluate statistics such as the, "millions of birds" that fall victim to
cats every year. Have you considered running for president? If not, then I
suggest you think seriously about it. This nation needs leadership that is
capable of such brilliant perspicasity and imagination.

Ivor Jones
June 19th 07, 06:49 PM
"Dave F" > wrote in message


[snip]

> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just
> amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing
> and keep your cat indoors where it belongs.

Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally
indoor animals. No animals are.

Ivor

cybercat
June 19th 07, 08:13 PM
"Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Dave F" > wrote in message
>
>
> [snip]
>
>> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just
>> amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing
>> and keep your cat indoors where it belongs.
>
> Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally
> indoor animals. No animals are.
>

They are domesticated, you flaming ****ing idiot, and belong indoors
now, unless you want them to have short miserable lives.

I had a bonehead friend who was as stupid as you are. She let her
cat outside in a busy city and never saw him again. I had no sympathy
for her, especially after the ignorant bitch said that she would rather him
have a short lifespan and go outside than a long lifespan and stay in.

My indoor cats are so happy. Happy and fiesty and SAFE. They
sit in the screened windows and enjoy the birds and squirrels and
chipmunks and bugs and rabbits that would not be there if they
went out. They never try to get out. They have caught two mice
that came in, but they didn't eat them, why should they, cat food
is easier? So they didn't get any disease the mice happened to
carry.

It's 2007. It's not safe outside for ANYONE, but particularly
not for creatures with little cat brains.

Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Dave F
June 19th 07, 08:50 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Dave F" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just
>>> amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing
>>> and keep your cat indoors where it belongs.
>>
>> Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally
>> indoor animals. No animals are.
>>
>
> They are domesticated, you flaming ****ing idiot, and belong indoors
> now, unless you want them to have short miserable lives.
>
> I had a bonehead friend who was as stupid as you are. She let her
> cat outside in a busy city and never saw him again. I had no sympathy
> for her, especially after the ignorant bitch said that she would rather
> him
> have a short lifespan and go outside than a long lifespan and stay in.
>
> My indoor cats are so happy. Happy and fiesty and SAFE. They
> sit in the screened windows and enjoy the birds and squirrels and
> chipmunks and bugs and rabbits that would not be there if they
> went out. They never try to get out. They have caught two mice
> that came in, but they didn't eat them, why should they, cat food
> is easier? So they didn't get any disease the mice happened to
> carry.
>
> It's 2007. It's not safe outside for ANYONE, but particularly
> not for creatures with little cat brains.
>
> Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Don't bother with these "things". They are incapable of understanding even
the most basic science/fact, such as domesticated cats not being a native
species, and why it's so horribly wrong for the human animal to suddenly
dump millions of these poor cats outdoors. I gave them the links which
explains it all in detail, and their responses were absolutely ridiculous.

Dave

cybercat
June 19th 07, 09:33 PM
"Dave F" > wrote
>
> Don't bother with these "things".

Now, now, Dave. Isn't that a little harsh?

After all, stump stupid, irresponsible assholes
are people too.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

William Graham
June 19th 07, 10:43 PM
"Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Dave F" > wrote in message
>
>
> [snip]
>
>> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just
>> amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing
>> and keep your cat indoors where it belongs.
>
> Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally
> indoor animals. No animals are.
>
> Ivor
>
>
To me, it depends on where you live, and the circumstances....I have known
many who lived in a big city, and who had perfectly fine indoor cats that
were happy and lived long, healthy lives. But in my case, I live on the edge
of town, and most of my cats found me, rather than my finding them. They
simply wandered in one day and liked the smell of my food, so they elected
to stay. It is neither my right, nor my desire to trap them inside my house.
They have the whole world to wander in, and I don't intend to restrict that
freedom. If they are cold and/or hungry, then I am there for them.
Otherwise, they can come and go as they please. For sure, I am not going to
restrict their activities because they might kill some bird or frog or any
other creature....I am not God. I didn't create this screwed-up world. All I
try to do is make it as easy as possible for the creatures I like. It's true
that I could make it easier for the birds if I didn't take care of cats. but
somewhere on the order of life, one has to stop caring. I could save
millions of bacteria by not walking on the sidewalk, too. So, we worry about
the creatures we like, and sacrifice those we don't care about. I could care
less for birds....I'm sorry, but they are too far down on the order of
things for me to worry about. That's just the way it is...... I might add
that society seems to agree with me. There is no law that restricts cats to
the property as it does dogs. Birds are considered by the society to be far
enough down on the order of things to not deserve that kind of
protection....If they are stupid enough to be caught by cats, then they
"deserve" to die, according to the law.

William Graham
June 19th 07, 10:54 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Dave F" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just
>>> amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing
>>> and keep your cat indoors where it belongs.
>>
>> Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally
>> indoor animals. No animals are.
>>
>
> They are domesticated, you flaming ****ing idiot, and belong indoors
> now, unless you want them to have short miserable lives.
>
> I had a bonehead friend who was as stupid as you are. She let her
> cat outside in a busy city and never saw him again. I had no sympathy
> for her, especially after the ignorant bitch said that she would rather
> him
> have a short lifespan and go outside than a long lifespan and stay in.
>
> My indoor cats are so happy. Happy and fiesty and SAFE. They
> sit in the screened windows and enjoy the birds and squirrels and
> chipmunks and bugs and rabbits that would not be there if they
> went out. They never try to get out. They have caught two mice
> that came in, but they didn't eat them, why should they, cat food
> is easier? So they didn't get any disease the mice happened to
> carry.
>
> It's 2007. It's not safe outside for ANYONE, but particularly
> not for creatures with little cat brains.
>
> Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there.
>
What's boneheaded is to believe that everyone lives in the same place,
and/or under the same circumstances.....My cousin used to own half interest
in Souvereign Vineyards in Northern California...She had a huge grape
farm....She kept three or four huge Siamese cats that she didn't feed, so
they had to live off of the birds they could catch in the orchard. They were
lean and mean, but they still enjoyed human company, because they would rest
about 20 yards or so from the porch on my cousin's house when they weren't
hunting. The very idea that she could and/or would make these "indoor cats"
in ridiculous....They were working cats, and that's how they paid for their
keep....By killing birds, and keeping them off the grapes.
On the other hand, I had a girl friend who lived on a busy street corner
in San Francisco. She had two cats that never went outside. If they did,
they would probably have been run down in short order by the Geary Street
traffic.

Baldoni-XXV
June 19th 07, 11:58 PM
It happens that cybercat formulated :
> "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Dave F" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> I just read through this thread and the ignorance just
>>> amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing
>>> and keep your cat indoors where it belongs.
>>
>> Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally
>> indoor animals. No animals are.

>
> It's 2007. It's not safe outside for ANYONE, but particularly
> not for creatures with little cat brains.
>
> Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there.

My cat's would make my life hell if I tried to keep them indoors. One
stays indoors a lot these days. My other cat sleeps all day and plays
hell if I don't let him out at night.

--
Count Baldoni

BALDONI REX ROMANORUM

Baldoni-XXV
June 20th 07, 12:05 AM
Upscale expressed precisely :
> "Dave F" > wrote in message
>>> birds. Sure, they are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful. But
>>> that doesn't make them any more compassionate than any other animal....
>
>> You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they get
>> to get away from you.
>
> Then I must be a moron too. Much as I've disagreed with William in the
> past, I have little disregard for birds too aside from the insects they
> might eat. Try going down to the islands in Toronto sometime and see how
> long it takes you to lose any consideration for birds. Trekking out to a
> picnic table with the family means walking very carefully through the goose
> ****. And don't forget to bring all the cleansers and paper towel, because
> the picnic table will be saturated. They should all be shot, cooked and fed
> to the homeless population in the city. Sitting out at your picnic table for
> a few seconds means you'll get covered in pigeon ****. They're nothing more
> than flying diapers. Any chance of enjoying the outdoors will inevitably be
> ruined in minutes by birds. For the first ten years in my apartment, the
> balcony was virtually unusable because of the pigeon ****. Cleaning the
> balcony meant one day of usage and then be prepared to clean again.
>
> Birds of all types should be hunted, shot, poisoned and everything else that
> gets rid of them. So yeah, I'm a moron too.

Maybe your country could do with a good dose of bird flu. We were
expecting it but I think the authorities were over reacting to
something they knew little about.

In the UK our problem is the gray squirrel but it is to late to do
anything about it now.

--
Count Baldoni

BALDONI REX ROMANORUM

Ivor Jones
June 20th 07, 01:31 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message

> "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > "Dave F" > wrote in message
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I just read through this thread and the ignorance just
> > > amazes me. Read the following and then do the right
> > > thing and keep your cat indoors where it belongs.
> >
> > Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats
> > are not naturally indoor animals. No animals are.
> >
>
> They are domesticated, you flaming ****ing idiot, and
> belong indoors now, unless you want them to have short miserable lives.

Ah. Foul language. The last resort of those who know they've lost the
argument.

<plonk>

Ivor

Upscale
June 20th 07, 01:36 AM
"Dave F" > wrote in message
> species, and why it's so horribly wrong for the human animal to suddenly
> dump millions of these poor cats outdoors. I gave them the links which
> explains it all in detail, and their responses were absolutely ridiculous.

It's idiots like you with your stunted brain power that don't have the
facility to reason. There's millions and millions of cats who spend their
total lives indoors with their owners who happen to live in apartments.
They're happy, healthy and playful animals. But Wait! Along comes the brain
dead who think it's against nature and all cats should be allowed to be
outside. What EXACTLY would you have all those millions of cat owners do
with these indoor cats? Think about it. If these cats weren't owned and
loved by people living in apartments, then they'd be outside, caught and
euthanized by the animal shelters overflowing with felines. There's already
way too many cats for the amount of people willing to adopt them, but even
so, flakes like you would have all those cats be put outside to fight, be
injured or killed, definitely live shorter lives, and/or be euthanized by
animal shelters.

Does that make any sense to you? Instead of mouthing off with your emotions
to drive you, state how these cats might exist outside without experiencing
the inevitable difficulty and quick death that would come their way by being
outside.

Until you can do that with some sense of logic, then you really have
absolutely nothing to say.

Matthew
June 20th 07, 02:04 AM
When will everyone learn that the inside - outside debate will never be
solved. It can not be argued, debated, discussed without both sides turning
it to a shoving match. Just as it has once again in this thread.

Everyone has their opinion no one can changed another persons mind when
it comes to this subject. Why everyone in general tries at all is beyond me.
Plus than can't wait to try and prove their point

There are 3 things that are never to be discussed Sex, Religion and
Politics Now there is a fourth the inside outside debate.

When will you all learn it is always started by some newbie or a troll
( not that this person was or is ). It is like someone has poured a 55
gallon barrel of gas on a huge pile of garbage. Than here comes this
pyromaniac with a wide eyed kid in a candy store look can't wait to throw a
match on it and see it burn

William Graham
June 20th 07, 02:42 AM
"Baldoni-XXV @googlemail.com>" <baldoniXXV<nil> wrote in message
...
> Upscale expressed precisely :
>> "Dave F" > wrote in message
>>>> birds. Sure, they are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful.
>>>> But
>>>> that doesn't make them any more compassionate than any other animal....
>>
>>> You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they
>>> get
>>> to get away from you.
>>
>> Then I must be a moron too. Much as I've disagreed with William in the
>> past, I have little disregard for birds too aside from the insects they
>> might eat. Try going down to the islands in Toronto sometime and see how
>> long it takes you to lose any consideration for birds. Trekking out to a
>> picnic table with the family means walking very carefully through the
>> goose
>> ****. And don't forget to bring all the cleansers and paper towel,
>> because
>> the picnic table will be saturated. They should all be shot, cooked and
>> fed
>> to the homeless population in the city. Sitting out at your picnic table
>> for
>> a few seconds means you'll get covered in pigeon ****. They're nothing
>> more
>> than flying diapers. Any chance of enjoying the outdoors will inevitably
>> be
>> ruined in minutes by birds. For the first ten years in my apartment, the
>> balcony was virtually unusable because of the pigeon ****. Cleaning the
>> balcony meant one day of usage and then be prepared to clean again.
>>
>> Birds of all types should be hunted, shot, poisoned and everything else
>> that
>> gets rid of them. So yeah, I'm a moron too.
>
> Maybe your country could do with a good dose of bird flu. We were
> expecting it but I think the authorities were over reacting to something
> they knew little about.
>
> In the UK our problem is the gray squirrel but it is to late to do
> anything about it now.
>
> --
> Count Baldoni
>
> BALDONI REX ROMANORUM

The world is full of creatures, and for every species, there is a champion
who will do what they can do to help that species survive as much as
possible.....I happen to like cats....I don't catch and kill birds for them,
but I do feed them chopped, roasted chicken, as well as eating it myself. If
somebody wants to worry about birds, that's their right, but I will object
and fight back if they try to hurt my cats, and/or make their lives
miserable. - That's my right, too. The number of birds that my cats catch
and kill is miniscule. It is not enough to spend any time worrying about.
Far more birds are dying due to environmental pollution and habitat
destruction...

William Graham
June 20th 07, 02:49 AM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
news:46787d11$0$4729>

There are 3 things that are never to be discussed Sex, Religion and
> Politics Now there is a fourth the inside outside debate.

The inside/outside cats debate is really a subdivision of politics, so I
wouldn't give it it's own category....And, if I couldn't discuss religion,
sex or politics on these forums, then I wouldn't want to be here at
all....There isn't anything more important or interesting for me to want to
discuss......After all, what could be more fun than trying to teach physics
to Rosie O'Donnell?

Matthew
June 20th 07, 02:54 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matthew" > wrote in message
> news:46787d11$0$4729>
>
> There are 3 things that are never to be discussed Sex, Religion and
>> Politics Now there is a fourth the inside outside debate.
>
> The inside/outside cats debate is really a subdivision of politics, so I
> wouldn't give it it's own category....And, if I couldn't discuss religion,
> sex or politics on these forums, then I wouldn't want to be here at
> all....There isn't anything more important or interesting for me to want
> to discuss......After all, what could be more fun than trying to teach
> physics to Rosie O'Donnell?

I can see your point but it deserves it own category due to how much trouble
it causes

Rosie already knows Physics she sees it in the mirror every day ;-)

William Graham
June 20th 07, 03:10 AM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Matthew" > wrote in message
>> news:46787d11$0$4729>
>>
>> There are 3 things that are never to be discussed Sex, Religion and
>>> Politics Now there is a fourth the inside outside debate.
>>
>> The inside/outside cats debate is really a subdivision of politics, so I
>> wouldn't give it it's own category....And, if I couldn't discuss
>> religion, sex or politics on these forums, then I wouldn't want to be
>> here at all....There isn't anything more important or interesting for me
>> to want to discuss......After all, what could be more fun than trying to
>> teach physics to Rosie O'Donnell?
>
> I can see your point but it deserves it own category due to how much
> trouble it causes
>
> Rosie already knows Physics she sees it in the mirror every day ;-)
>
Yes....It has been suggested to me that I join and post to a political
newsgroup....but I have found that the huge number of stupid posters on
those groups is so overwhelming that they aren't any fun....IOW, there are
too few people there that can stick to a rational argument and not revert to
dumb name calling if they can't answer my points. They all seem to have a
"Rosie O'Donnell" mentality....Religion is even worse. My atheism is the
only rational viewpoint, and the religious just parrot whatever lies they
have been told, and can't stick to a rational argument. Also, they all have
an ax to grind.....They are duty bound to convince me that I am wrong,
because it gives them points toward getting into heaven, but I gain nothing
by convincing them that I am right, so what's the point?

Kaarl Hungus
June 27th 07, 07:12 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
:
: "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
: ...
: > "Garret Swayne" > writes:
: >
: >> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
: >> it's
: >> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
: >> "ungracious".
: >>
: >> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
: >> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
: >> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
: >> cherish?
: >> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough
to
: >> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
: >> dead
: >> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
: >> they
: >> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?
: >
: > I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
: > As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.
: >
: > Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
: > That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
: > Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
: > Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
: > have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
: > food for kittens.
: >
: > After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
: > and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.
: >
: > Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
: > It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
: > It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
: > to operate.
: >
: >
: > We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
: > Small cat, really large bird.
: >
: Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was almost
: killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the
cat
: was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to our
: bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird
: could get her......but it was a close call......


I live in Florida, so I see ospreys on a daily basis. Sure, I'd hate to
tangle with one if I were a cat, but these birds aren't any larger than 5
pounds or so. I have a hard time believing that an osprey could subdue your
average housecat.

Baldoni
June 27th 07, 05:11 PM
Kaarl Hungus explained :
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Garret Swayne" > writes:
>>>
>>>> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
>>>> it's
>>>> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
>>>> "ungracious".
>>>>
>>>> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
>>>> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
>>>> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
>>>> cherish?
>>>> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
>>>> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
>>>> dead
>>>> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
>>>> they
>>>> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?
>>>
>>> I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
>>> As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.
>>>
>>> Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
>>> That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
>>> Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
>>> Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
>>> have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
>>> food for kittens.
>>>
>>> After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
>>> and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.
>>>
>>> Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
>>> It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
>>> It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
>>> to operate.
>>>
>>>
>>> We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
>>> Small cat, really large bird.
>>>
>> Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was almost
>> killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the cat
>> was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to our
>> bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird
>> could get her......but it was a close call......
>
>
> I live in Florida, so I see ospreys on a daily basis. Sure, I'd hate to
> tangle with one if I were a cat, but these birds aren't any larger than 5
> pounds or so. I have a hard time believing that an osprey could subdue your
> average housecat.

We got foxes near us but to the best of my knowledge they have not
attacked any of the cats.

--
Count Baldoni

William Graham
June 27th 07, 11:18 PM
"Kaarl Hungus" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
> :
> : "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > "Garret Swayne" > writes:
> : >
> : >> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
> : >> it's
> : >> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
> : >> "ungracious".
> : >>
> : >> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be
> skeptical
> : >> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
> : >> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
> : >> cherish?
> : >> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart
> enough
> to
> : >> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
> : >> dead
> : >> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
> : >> they
> : >> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?
> : >
> : > I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
> : > As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.
> : >
> : > Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
> : > That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
> : > Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
> : > Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
> : > have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
> : > food for kittens.
> : >
> : > After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
> : > and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.
> : >
> : > Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
> : > It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
> : > It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
> : > to operate.
> : >
> : >
> : > We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
> : > Small cat, really large bird.
> : >
> : Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was
> almost
> : killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the
> cat
> : was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to
> our
> : bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird
> : could get her......but it was a close call......
>
>
> I live in Florida, so I see ospreys on a daily basis. Sure, I'd hate to
> tangle with one if I were a cat, but these birds aren't any larger than 5
> pounds or so. I have a hard time believing that an osprey could subdue
> your
> average housecat.
>
>
This bird looked larger than that to me, but I didn't get a really good look
at it....I heard the thump as it hit the wooden floor of out rear deck, and
when I looked out, the cat was high-tailing it through the cat door, and the
bird was taking off again.....Perhaps it was an eagle....I'm not a bird
watcher, so I have problems identifying them....We live about a half mile
from the river (Willamette) so we get a lot of ospreys........

Baldoni
June 28th 07, 11:27 PM
William Graham formulated the question :
> "Kaarl Hungus" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> :
>> : "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
>> : ...
>> : > "Garret Swayne" > writes:
>> : >
>> : >> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
>> : >> it's
>> : >> really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
>> : >> "ungracious".
>> : >>
>> > >> Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be
>> skeptical
>> : >> about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
>> : >> "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
>> : >> cherish?
>> > >> If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart
>> enough
>> to
>> : >> figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
>> : >> dead
>> : >> carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
>> : >> they
>> : >> really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?
>> : >
>> : > I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
>> : > As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.
>> : >
>> : > Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
>> : > That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
>> : > Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
>> : > Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
>> : > have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
>> : > food for kittens.
>> : >
>> : > After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
>> : > and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.
>> : >
>> : > Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
>> : > It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
>> : > It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
>> : > to operate.
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
>> : > Small cat, really large bird.
>> : >
>> > Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was
>> almost
>> : killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the
>> cat
>> > was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to
>> our
>> : bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird
>> : could get her......but it was a close call......
>>
>>
>> I live in Florida, so I see ospreys on a daily basis. Sure, I'd hate to
>> tangle with one if I were a cat, but these birds aren't any larger than 5
>> pounds or so. I have a hard time believing that an osprey could subdue
>> your
>> average housecat.
>>
>>
> This bird looked larger than that to me, but I didn't get a really good look
> at it....I heard the thump as it hit the wooden floor of out rear deck, and
> when I looked out, the cat was high-tailing it through the cat door, and the
> bird was taking off again.....Perhaps it was an eagle....I'm not a bird
> watcher, so I have problems identifying them....We live about a half mile
> from the river (Willamette) so we get a lot of ospreys........

Where I live it is not unusual to see crows chase the buzzards !

--
Count Baldoni

William Graham
June 28th 07, 11:47 PM
"Baldoni @googlemail.com>" <baldoniXXV<nil> wrote in message >

Where I live it is not unusual to see crows chase the buzzards !
>
> --
> Count Baldoni
>
>
Yes....Smaller, more maneuverable birds will frequently harass hawks which
are larger and less able to defend themselves in the air.