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*carmen*
June 19th 07, 12:35 PM
Hi there
I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
thanks
Carmen

MaryL
June 19th 07, 02:16 PM
"*carmen*" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen
>

I would keep them indoors. I believe cats are safer indoors, and they will
be just as happy if you provide lots of toys, attention, and a climbing
surface (such as a cat tree). I notice that you live in the UK, so you
don't have as many predators as we have -- but there are some, and cars are
a danger everywhere (just not as many as in a city).

MaryL

barb
June 19th 07, 02:30 PM
My suggestion: keep them indoors. The fears you mentioned are justified.
You can walk them with a leash and a harness so they can enjoy the outdoors.

--
Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.

June 19th 07, 02:40 PM
*carmen* > wrote:

>Hi there
>I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
>flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
>we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
>scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
>them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>thanks
>Carmen

Can you build a fence around the garden and supervise their first few
ventures to see if they are inclined to try to escape? My guys accept
any fence or railing as a boundary but even then I don't let them out
and forget about them.

-mhd

bookie
June 19th 07, 03:26 PM
On 19 Jun, 12:35, *carmen* > wrote:
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen

ok you're inthe UK in which case ignore any paranoid ramblings form
our american cousins, they keep their cats indoors cos they have much
more of a predator problem than we have and wild animals like coyotes
and suchlike who will eat kitties.
you do nto say where in the UK you actually live? are you near a main
road? what wildlife is inthe forest behind you? which forest is it?
there is not much in terms of savage wildlife in britain which coudl
harm a cat, most outdoors cats are safe, all mine have been safe and
been allowed access to the outdoors and to be honest in one case it
was next doors pet rabbit who suffered from them being allowed out.

just erect a fhigh ence or something if you are worried, only let them
out when you are there, that is what I do as we do not have a cat flap
and no way to install one either (glass patio doors) but that is no
problem really and some cats feel that cat flaps make them feel
insecure. If you are really bothered there are soem fences where the
animal wears a collar and gets mild shock when they stray further
thyan certain points, personally not my bag but some people use them,
mostly for dogs I think.

please allow your kitties the chance to enjoy the great outdoors, it
will enrich their lives no end and cooping them up indoors is not
normal or fair onthem.

bookie

Spot
June 19th 07, 04:26 PM
Do NOT let them out. Why would you risk their lives now?

Celeste

"*carmen*" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen
>

Patty
June 19th 07, 04:55 PM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:26:39 -0700, bookie wrote:

> ok you're inthe UK in which case ignore any paranoid ramblings form
> our american cousins, they keep their cats indoors cos they have much
> more of a predator problem than we have and wild animals like coyotes
> and suchlike who will eat kitties.

I'm in the US and I've never had a cat eaten by any "wild" animals. Never
seen a coyote in my neck of the woods either. We do have raccoons and
oppossums and rabbits too. An occasional red-tail hawk will fly over the
area, but I've never heard of him going after a cat either. He mostly
likes smaller prey that he can easily carry like field mice (which we have
plenty of). My cats have always been outdoors. I've never been paranoid
to force them to stay inside. I will admit, I did try it with Rusty when
he was little, but gave up when he was nearly a year old. He virtually
destroyed my house because he was so hyper. He was originally a "farm cat"
and was probably descended from generations of outdoor hunters. He HAS to
go outside. It's in his genes.

I live in a small, rural town of just over 1,000 people.

Patty

Fred G. Mackey[_2_]
June 19th 07, 05:59 PM
Patty wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:26:39 -0700, bookie wrote:
>
>
>>ok you're inthe UK in which case ignore any paranoid ramblings form
>>our american cousins, they keep their cats indoors cos they have much
>>more of a predator problem than we have and wild animals like coyotes
>>and suchlike who will eat kitties.
>
>
> I'm in the US and I've never had a cat eaten by any "wild" animals. Never
> seen a coyote in my neck of the woods either. We do have raccoons and
> oppossums and rabbits too.

And fleas. Fleas (sometimes) carry plague which means other small furry
creatures which your cat may prey upon could also carry plague (the
bubonic kind).

Then of course there are cars and cruel kids, which I'm sure Britain has
as well. I'm not so worried about coyotes, wolves, mountain lions or
bears although I would be if I lived a bit further up in the mountains.

> An occasional red-tail hawk will fly over the
> area, but I've never heard of him going after a cat either.

Good point - I've seen eagles and hawks around. They're magnificent
creatures, but I prefer they prey on rodents rather than my cat. Every
spring, I see lots of baby rabbits. They're very cute, but not all of
them survive to become adults. It's a good thing too, otherwise we'd be
overrun by them.

> He mostly
> likes smaller prey that he can easily carry like field mice (which we have
> plenty of).

Which are perfect for plague.

> My cats have always been outdoors. I've never been paranoid
> to force them to stay inside. I will admit, I did try it with Rusty when
> he was little, but gave up when he was nearly a year old. He virtually
> destroyed my house because he was so hyper.

I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.

> He was originally a "farm cat"
> and was probably descended from generations of outdoor hunters. He HAS to
> go outside. It's in his genes.
>
> I live in a small, rural town of just over 1,000 people.
>
> Patty

PawsForThought
June 19th 07, 06:05 PM
On Jun 19, 12:59 pm, "Fred G. Mackey" > wrote:
> Patty wrote:

> My cats have always been outdoors. I've never been paranoid
> to force them to stay inside. I will admit, I did try it with Rusty when
> he was little, but gave up when he was nearly a year old. He virtually
> destroyed my house because he was so hyper.


>>I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.

I find that usually people who say their cat destroyed their house are
people who haven't trained their cats properly, or who haven't
provided appropriate scratching surfaces for the cat.

bookie
June 19th 07, 06:14 PM
On 19 Jun, 16:55, Patty > wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:26:39 -0700, bookie wrote:
> > ok you're inthe UK in which case ignore any paranoid ramblings form
> > our american cousins, they keep their cats indoors cos they have much
> > more of a predator problem than we have and wild animals like coyotes
> > and suchlike who will eat kitties.
>
> I'm in the US and I've never had a cat eaten by any "wild" animals. Never
> seen a coyote in my neck of the woods either. We do have raccoons and
> oppossums and rabbits too. An occasional red-tail hawk will fly over the
> area, but I've never heard of him going after a cat either. He mostly
> likes smaller prey that he can easily carry like field mice (which we have
> plenty of). My cats have always been outdoors. I've never been paranoid
> to force them to stay inside. I will admit, I did try it with Rusty when
> he was little, but gave up when he was nearly a year old. He virtually
> destroyed my house because he was so hyper. He was originally a "farm cat"
> and was probably descended from generations of outdoor hunters. He HAS to
> go outside. It's in his genes.
>
> I live in a small, rural town of just over 1,000 people.
>
> Patty

good for you!!!!!

bookie
June 19th 07, 06:15 PM
On 19 Jun, 16:26, "Spot" > wrote:
> Do NOT let them out. Why would you risk their lives now?
>
> Celeste
>
> "*carmen*" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hi there
> > I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> > flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> > we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> > scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> > them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> > thanks
> > Carmen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

ignore this person, they are obviously deranged

Patty
June 19th 07, 06:37 PM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:59:04 -0700, Fred G. Mackey wrote:

> I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.

Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking many
items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from work one
day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in the living
room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an old home and the
ceilings are 9 feet off the floor), I said "enough" and he went outside.
He's been a great cat ever since. He needed space to run and he needed to
hunt.

I'm not paranoid enough to keep a cat that needs to go outside in, and
today Rusty is more than 16 years old. Oh, and we've never seen a case of
the plague either.

Patty

Matthew
June 19th 07, 06:39 PM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 19 Jun, 16:26, "Spot" > wrote:
>> Do NOT let them out. Why would you risk their lives now?
>>
>> Celeste
>>
>> "*carmen*" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi there
>> > I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
>> > flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
>> > we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
>> > scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
>> > them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>> > thanks
>> > Carmen- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
< snipped >

He has a point UK or not

Patty
June 19th 07, 06:41 PM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:05:01 -0700, PawsForThought wrote:

> I find that usually people who say their cat destroyed their house are
> people who haven't trained their cats properly, or who haven't
> provided appropriate scratching surfaces for the cat.

They've always had "appropriate scratching surfaces" and have never clawed
up furniture. We had our last sofa for 20 years (longer than the cats) and
it was never scratched or clawed. I guess I could have kept Rusty from
climbing by chaining him to the floor.

Patty

cybercat
June 19th 07, 08:16 PM
"Patty" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:59:04 -0700, Fred G. Mackey wrote:
>
>> I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.
>
> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking many
> items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from work one
> day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in the living
> room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an old home and
> the
> ceilings are 9 feet off the floor), I said "enough" and he went outside.
> He's been a great cat ever since. He needed space to run and he needed to
> hunt.
>
> I'm not paranoid enough to keep a cat that needs to go outside in, and
> today Rusty is more than 16 years old. Oh, and we've never seen a case of
> the plague either.
>

So you are willing to take a chance with your animal's life. Some of us are
not.
You must be so proud.

cybercat
June 19th 07, 08:16 PM
"Spot" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Do NOT let them out. Why would you risk their lives now?
>

The same reason anyone would. Sheer stupidity.

bobblespin[_2_]
June 19th 07, 08:28 PM
*carmen* > wrote in news:1182252902.974664.262180
@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen
>
>

You will get endless arguments about whether to keep them in or out.
Whatever you decide, you must at least teach them their property (with a
leash and harness), so that they will know where they live in case they get
out accidentally due to burglary, fire, visitors, etc. We get so many
flyers here looking for lost indoor cats it is heartbreaking.

Bobble

--
Have you hugged your cat today?

Sonny's web page --> http://web.ncf.ca/ai151/index2.html

cybercat
June 19th 07, 08:31 PM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jun 19, 12:59 pm, "Fred G. Mackey" > wrote:
>> Patty wrote:
>
>> My cats have always been outdoors. I've never been paranoid
>> to force them to stay inside. I will admit, I did try it with Rusty when
>> he was little, but gave up when he was nearly a year old. He virtually
>> destroyed my house because he was so hyper.
>
>
>>>I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.
>
> I find that usually people who say their cat destroyed their house are
> people who haven't trained their cats properly, or who haven't
> provided appropriate scratching surfaces for the cat.
>

It's true. And like "Patty," they all argue about the All Powerful
Nature of their Ferocious Cat.

Horse ****. Even lame humans like Patty have the edge that a
large forebrain and opposable thumbs give all humans.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

cybercat
June 19th 07, 08:34 PM
"*carmen*" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks

Carmen! It sounds so nice. You need to do two things for your kitties
to enjoy the outdoors: enclose them so that they cannot escape and nothing
can get in to them, and supervise them. I think I would go with a tall
"invisible"
kind of fence around the periphery of the garden, and I still would only let
them go out when I am out there working or relaxing. (Because they can
climb, as can other animals.)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Matthew
June 19th 07, 08:44 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "*carmen*" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Hi there
>> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
>> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
>> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
>> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
>> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>> thanks
>
> Carmen! It sounds so nice. You need to do two things for your kitties
> to enjoy the outdoors: enclose them so that they cannot escape and nothing
> can get in to them, and supervise them. I think I would go with a tall
> "invisible"
> kind of fence around the periphery of the garden, and I still would only
> let
> them go out when I am out there working or relaxing. (Because they can
> climb, as can other animals.)


Cyber has a good idea about the fence but to prevent them from getting over
the fence they make a top that can prevent animals from coming in and out

Patty
June 19th 07, 09:08 PM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:31:34 -0400, cybercat wrote:

> "PawsForThought" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Jun 19, 12:59 pm, "Fred G. Mackey" > wrote:
>>> Patty wrote:
>>
>>> My cats have always been outdoors. I've never been paranoid
>>> to force them to stay inside. I will admit, I did try it with Rusty when
>>> he was little, but gave up when he was nearly a year old. He virtually
>>> destroyed my house because he was so hyper.
>>
>>
>>>>I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.
>>
>> I find that usually people who say their cat destroyed their house are
>> people who haven't trained their cats properly, or who haven't
>> provided appropriate scratching surfaces for the cat.
>>
>
> It's true. And like "Patty," they all argue about the All Powerful
> Nature of their Ferocious Cat.
>
> Horse ****. Even lame humans like Patty have the edge that a
> large forebrain and opposable thumbs give all humans.

You know, I don't feel the need to call YOU names.

Patty

Lynne
June 19th 07, 11:02 PM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:55:43 GMT, Patty > wrote:

> He virtually
> destroyed my house because he was so hyper. He was originally a "farm
> cat" and was probably descended from generations of outdoor hunters.
> He HAS to go outside. It's in his genes.

Sorry, but this is utter BS. My almost 4 year old cat, Rudy, came from a
well established feral colony at the age of 4 months. He is now a very
happy, satisfied indoor cat. Your cat destroyed your house becuase he was
bored, not because he couldn't go outside. If you provide interesting
toys, multi-level climbing and scratching surfaces and play with your cat,
he won't destroy your house. Cats are not decorative objects and do
require interaction. They can be very happy indoors, and they are
definitely safer.

--
Lynne

Lynne
June 19th 07, 11:04 PM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:

> Oh, and we've never seen a case of
> the plague either.

The plague is no long contained in California, FYI.

--
Lynne

June 19th 07, 11:07 PM
"Matthew" > wrote:

>Cyber has a good idea about the fence but to prevent them from getting over
>the fence they make a top that can prevent animals from coming in and out

I've been lucky that my cats recognize boundaries such as the railing
around the deck (with a gate) and never try to jump up or squeeze
through.

I think they're actually too chicken to go any further.

-mhd

Cheryl
June 19th 07, 11:27 PM
On Tue 19 Jun 2007 06:02:32p, Lynne wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
. 97.142>:

> Sorry, but this is utter BS. My almost 4 year old cat, Rudy,
> came from a well established feral colony at the age of 4
> months. He is now a very happy, satisfied indoor cat. Your cat
> destroyed your house becuase he was bored, not because he
> couldn't go outside. If you provide interesting toys,
> multi-level climbing and scratching surfaces and play with your
> cat, he won't destroy your house. Cats are not decorative
> objects and do require interaction. They can be very happy
> indoors, and they are definitely safer.

Ditto here. All four of my current cats came from the outdoors and
have no desire to go out except in the enclosure that they know is
theirs. Rhett and Scarlett were born outdoors and came in at a
young age, but Bonnie was a feral (doesn't even have a desire to go
out in the enclosure) and Shamrock was a cared-for stray until the
person had to move and contacted Washington Animal Rescue League to
come get him. They have lots of toys, places to climb, and the
company of each other. And, no need to hunt to eat. They all seem
happy to me.

--
Cheryl

Lynne
June 19th 07, 11:37 PM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:27:08 GMT, Cheryl >
wrote:

> Ditto here. All four of my current cats came from the outdoors and
> have no desire to go out except in the enclosure that they know is
> theirs. Rhett and Scarlett were born outdoors and came in at a
> young age, but Bonnie was a feral (doesn't even have a desire to go
> out in the enclosure) and Shamrock was a cared-for stray until the
> person had to move and contacted Washington Animal Rescue League to
> come get him. They have lots of toys, places to climb, and the
> company of each other. And, no need to hunt to eat.

And now a bone to chew! Hehe.

--
Lynne

Lynne
June 19th 07, 11:40 PM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:

> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from
> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in
> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an
> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),

And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten. Stick to
adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...

Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could have
saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for being a
kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.

--
Lynne

June 20th 07, 12:07 AM
Lynne > wrote:

> on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:

> > Oh, and we've never seen a case of
> > the plague either.

> The plague is no long contained in California, FYI.

What do you mean? That the disease is in the population, uncontrolled?
I haven't heard of this, and I live in California. What part of CA, by
the way?

JOyce

Patty
June 20th 07, 12:33 AM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:40:41 -0500, Lynne wrote:

> on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
>> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
>> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
>> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
>> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from
>> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in
>> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an
>> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>
> And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten. Stick to
> adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>
> Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could have
> saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for being a
> kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.

Yes, and in this newsgroup your opinion is the only one that should be
followed.

Patty
I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
opinion it's time to leave and so I will.

MaryL
June 20th 07, 12:35 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
>> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
>> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
>> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
>> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from
>> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in
>> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an
>> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>
> And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten. Stick to
> adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>
> Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could have
> saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for being a
> kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.
>
> --
> Lynne

This isn't what I would consider normal. I have had cats for 45 years and
have never had one act like that. My cats have been indoor cats, active and
happy, but not destructive. On they other hand, they have lots of toys and
attention plus multi-level climbing surfaces. Holly will get on the table
and carefully push papers onto the floor, one-by-one. It's a game to her.
But I have never had a cat that has shredded curtains or been as destructive
as described here. It takes a little time (say "no" and distract their
attention any time they head for the curtains, for example), but this should
not be viewed as normal behavior. My cats also show no interest at all in
going outdoors. I did have a cat, many years ago, that was an outdoor cat.
When she was killed on the road, I decided that I would only have cats that
I could keep safe *and happy* indoors from that time on.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'<
Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf
Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o
Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e

sheelagh
June 20th 07, 12:39 AM
On 19 Jun, 12:35, *carmen* > wrote:
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen

I suggest that you follow your heart. I live the UK too, & I
understand your fears regarding allowing your beloved cats out, for
fear of anything happening to them. I understand how it feels to be
affected , or rather my cats being affected by allowing them to roam
free. We both know that it is fairly unusual to hear of anything
happening to cats allowed to roam free other than road accidents...

If I were you, I would take Barbs advice and invest in a pair of reins
from some where like Pets @ Home, then take them out together
personally. You might find that they hate the idea; however they might
love it. But if you have them on reins & you are with them, what could
possibly happen to them?

This seems to be the happy medium here.

If you find that they love it, you can start offering them a little
extra extension on their leads & reins so that they have a bit more
rein to sniff around, & roll in the grass & play with one another too.
It seems to me that you moved where you did so that you could take
your cats out. If I were you, I would allow them a certain amount of
freedom, so that if there was an escapee, then they know where home is
if they need to find/locate it, & might they even learn a bit about
what is surrounding you.

This is a long standing difference of opinion here, so most of the
advice you get will be totally conflicting. You are better following
your own judgement/instinct on this one, because you know your cats,
where we don't....

The one thing you "didn't do", was come here to get a barrage of
people having a slanging match, simply because you asked for some
advice.. Ignore those who know no better, & the sarcastic remarks too.
*Generally you DO get excellent advice here*. I am just sorry that
everyone jumped on your post and minced-meated it.
Some people are just very passionate about this subject because they
have had a dreadful experience, & don't wish the same to happen to
you.

My last bit of advice would be to invest in a cat run possibly? That
way they get to catch some real life and sun rays as well, & when you
have the time, take them on their supervised walks. Trust builds & I
am sure it will become easier to deal with , the more time passes
Good luck & please do let us know how things are going?
S;o)

Lynne
June 20th 07, 12:51 AM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:07:22 GMT, wrote:

> What do you mean? That the disease is in the population, uncontrolled?
> I haven't heard of this, and I live in California. What part of CA, by
> the way?

Rodents in The Sierra (and maybe in other areas) carry the plague. I
recently read that rodents in an adjacent state tested positive (can't
recall exactly where).

You don't really need to worry unless you have an infestation, or if your
cats hunt mice--though you may still want to look into it. I only visit
certain parts of California (like The Sierra, Yosemite and Joshua Tree) so
those are the only areas I know much about.

If you ever do have a rodent infestation, there are simple precautions you
can take to clean up the droppings and bedding (use gloves, a mask, and
soak all rodent droppings and bedding in a bleach solution before
disturbing/moving/disposing of it).

--
Lynne

22brix
June 20th 07, 12:53 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Lynne > wrote:
>
> > on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
> > > Oh, and we've never seen a case of
> > > the plague either.
>
> > The plague is no long contained in California, FYI.
>
> What do you mean? That the disease is in the population, uncontrolled?
> I haven't heard of this, and I live in California. What part of CA, by
> the way?
>
> JOyce


In the foothills, mountains and along the coast; not so much in the Central
Valley and desert areas.

Plague is endemic in certain rodent populations. Among domestic animals,
cats are among the most susceptible to plague.

http://www.cchealth.org/special/dhs_news_release_jul17_2006.php

http://www.cchealth.org/special/dhs_news_release_aug24_2005.php

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/epi.htm

Lynne
June 20th 07, 12:55 AM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:35:52 GMT, "MaryL"
-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote:

> This isn't what I would consider normal. I have had cats for 45 years
> and have never had one act like that. My cats have been indoor cats,
> active and happy, but not destructive. On they other hand, they have
> lots of toys and attention plus multi-level climbing surfaces. Holly
> will get on the table and carefully push papers onto the floor,
> one-by-one. It's a game to her. But I have never had a cat that has
> shredded curtains or been as destructive as described here. It takes
> a little time (say "no" and distract their attention any time they
> head for the curtains, for example), but this should not be viewed as
> normal behavior.

You have just made my point all that much stronger (and we agree). A
kitten will do these things naturally, unless you give him or her
appropriate toys and multi-level climbing surfaces and also your attention.
I don't think this person should have kittens.

> My cats also show no interest at all in going
> outdoors. I did have a cat, many years ago, that was an outdoor cat.
> When she was killed on the road, I decided that I would only have cats
> that I could keep safe *and happy* indoors from that time on.

That's awful. I had indoor/outdoor cats many years ago and consider myself
very lucky that neither one of them met the same fate. So again, you and I
agree, a cat can be perfectly happy indoors, and definitely safer.

--
Lynne

Lynne
June 20th 07, 12:57 AM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:33:21 GMT, Patty > wrote:

> I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
> opinion it's time to leave and so I will.

I didn't attack you, merely expressed my opinion.

Don't let the door hit you on your ass on your way out.

--
Lynne

Patty
June 20th 07, 12:58 AM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:39:41 -0700, sheelagh wrote:

> On 19 Jun, 12:35, *carmen* > wrote:
>> Hi there
>> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
>> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
>> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
>> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
>> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>> thanks
>> Carmen
>
> I suggest that you follow your heart. I live the UK too, & I
> understand your fears regarding allowing your beloved cats out, for
> fear of anything happening to them. I understand how it feels to be
> affected , or rather my cats being affected by allowing them to roam
> free. We both know that it is fairly unusual to hear of anything
> happening to cats allowed to roam free other than road accidents...
>
<snip>
> S;o)

Don't do that here if you live in the US or you will surely be attacked.
Everyone else knows better than you what you should do.

Patty

Matthew
June 20th 07, 01:05 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Lynne" > wrote in message
> . 97.142...
>> on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>>
>>> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
>>> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
>>> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
>>> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from
>>> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in
>>> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an
>>> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>>
>> And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten. Stick to
>> adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>>
>> Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could have
>> saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for being a
>> kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.
>>
>> --
>> Lynne
>
> This isn't what I would consider normal. I have had cats for 45 years and
> have never had one act like that. My cats have been indoor cats, active
> and happy, but not destructive. On they other hand, they have lots of
> toys and attention plus multi-level climbing surfaces. Holly will get on
> the table and carefully push papers onto the floor, one-by-one. It's a
> game to her. But I have never had a cat that has shredded curtains or been
> as destructive as described here. It takes a little time (say "no" and
> distract their attention any time they head for the curtains, for
> example), but this should not be viewed as normal behavior. My cats also
> show no interest at all in going outdoors. I did have a cat, many years
> ago, that was an outdoor cat. When she was killed on the road, I decided
> that I would only have cats that I could keep safe *and happy* indoors
> from that time on.
>
> MaryL
>
> Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'<
> Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf
> Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o
> Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e
>

What the OP described is a daily habit of my hellions. I have had calm
kitties. I have had tigers hidden in the body of a small four legged
furball. I have had the devil himself hidden behind a beautiful set of
eyes ( no not the ex [email protected] ;-) ). Once my furballs start to chase each
other there is nothing that stands in their way including Daddy. They have
climbed the walls knocked over items. But there is one thing I am
intelligent enough to know better than to have anything valuable that a
child, visitor or one of my furballs that could be knocked over.

Matthew
June 20th 07, 01:06 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:33:21 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
>> I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
>> opinion it's time to leave and so I will.
>
> I didn't attack you, merely expressed my opinion.
>
> Don't let the door hit you on your ass on your way out.
>
> --
> Lynne

Hey that is my line but it goes a little like this Don't let the doorknob
hit you where the good lord split ya'

Lynne
June 20th 07, 01:07 AM
on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:58:55 GMT, Patty > wrote:

> Don't do that here if you live in the US or you will surely be attacked.
> Everyone else knows better than you what you should do.

I love it when people proclaim they are leaving and then keep posting.

"Oh, those rpchb people are such meany pants for putting the welfare of
cats before people's feelings!"

--
Lynne

Lynne
June 20th 07, 01:08 AM
on Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:06:35 GMT, "Matthew"
> wrote:

> Hey that is my line but it goes a little like this Don't let the
> doorknob hit you where the good lord split ya'

hehe & YOUCH

--
Lynne

Lynne
June 20th 07, 01:10 AM
on Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:05:32 GMT, "Matthew"
> wrote:

> What the OP described is a daily habit of my hellions. I have had
> calm kitties. I have had tigers hidden in the body of a small four
> legged furball. I have had the devil himself hidden behind a
> beautiful set of eyes ( no not the ex [email protected] ;-) ). Once my furballs
> start to chase each other there is nothing that stands in their way
> including Daddy. They have climbed the walls knocked over items. But
> there is one thing I am intelligent enough to know better than to have
> anything valuable that a child, visitor or one of my furballs that
> could be knocked over.

Amen, brother Matthew. Besides, no inanimate object is more valuable than
a kitty.

--
Lynne

Matthew
June 20th 07, 01:13 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:58:55 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
< snipped >.
>
> I love it when people proclaim they are leaving and then keep posting.
>
> "Oh, those rpchb people are such meany pants for putting the welfare of
> cats before people's feelings!"
>
> --
> Lynne

Amen!!!!!! sister
Say it loud say it clear

bookie
June 20th 07, 01:35 AM
On 20 Jun, 00:33, Patty > wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:40:41 -0500, Lynne wrote:
> > on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
> >> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
> >> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
> >> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
> >> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from
> >> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in
> >> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an
> >> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>
> > And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten. Stick to
> > adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>
> > Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could have
> > saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for being a
> > kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.
>
> Yes, and in this newsgroup your opinion is the only one that should be
> followed.
>
> Patty
> I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
> opinion it's time to leave and so I will.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

don't leave, they are generally ****s who abuse you for allowing your
cat to go otuside (as nature requires). Just because you do not allow
your paranoid fear of everythign outdoors stops you from allowing your
cat to have a decent and fulfilled outdoors does not mean they have
the right to abuse you

**** 'em basically
when you cat was going stir crazy indoors, as most cats would, you did
the right things and allowed him access outside, you did not 'boot him
out' as one of the cretins above has stated (how much can these peolpe
get the wrong end fo thestick?) you just allowed him access to the
outside, same as i do for mine because they are used to the outside
and I believe and feel that it would be downright cruel to keep them
in when they are crying to get out

just ignore them, they are a bunch of screwed up narrow minded
witches, who won't accept that other people have different opinions or
way of life to them, typical yanks
bookie

T
June 20th 07, 01:37 AM
In article . com>,
says...
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen
>
>

If they've been house cats for this long it'd be cruel to set them out
to the wild like that. Let them stay indoor cats.

Cheryl
June 20th 07, 01:43 AM
On Tue 19 Jun 2007 08:05:32p, Matthew wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav <news:46786f47$0$24692
>:

> What the OP described is a daily habit of my hellions.

Mine, too! LOL But I expect it, and don't put anything breakable
where they can get to it. Luckily they now leave my curtains and
sheers alone, but I've had to bunch them up so they don't sweep the
floor and look too tempting. Shamrock used to hate to share a surface
with any thing or any one. He'd knock things off one by one watching
as each hit the floor. Now Rhett does it. I once saw a Christmas tree
decorated with cat toys. I'm thinking about using them as nick nacks.
LOL

--
Cheryl

bookie
June 20th 07, 01:51 AM
On 19 Jun, 20:16, "cybercat" > wrote:
> "Spot" > wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]
>
> > Do NOT let them out. Why would you risk their lives now?
>
> The same reason anyone would. Sheer stupidity.

and you knwo what about the situation for domestic cats in the UK? oh
yes NOTHING! the vast majority of cat slaves allow their cats access
to the outside and again the vast majority of these animals are safe,
we do not have all these savage wild predators that people have in
other countries who may go for our cats, and most learn to be
streetwise quite quickly in the same that kids do (or they squished i
suppose cats and kids).
you cannot aply the same scenario as you have in your country to
someone else's it does not fit at all.
I would much rather run the extremely small risk of my cats
encountering something untoward than curtail their acess to and
enjoyment of the great outdoors, i do not think it is fair on them and
I cannot provide either of them with the same stimulation they get
from going outside either. to me the trade off is worth it.
anyway everyone's situation is different; my 2 cats are old and do not
go far, the back door is always open but terri mostly prefers to lie
on the back windowsill and soak up the sun that way, occasionally
gonig outside to sit under a bush but goes no further. Jessie is too
old to be bothered with long expeditions further than next door's
garden, although this evening we did go for a walk round the cul-de-
sac together and she only went as far as i did and would not have gone
that far without me (watching her run back after me when i got bored
with her sniffing the bottoms of bins and turned to go indoors was
funny and cute, kind of "don't leave me!!!").

I have no worries about either of these cats because they are
streetwise now, old, lazy, and my area is safe, lots of other cats
around, every other house seems to have cats here and they are all
allowed outside and are ok with it. You cannot judge until you know
the full facts of the cats, the situation and the area they live,
which yuo don't but of course why should that stop you being judge
and jury eh?

what a bunch of cretins
to the OP; let them go out, don't be a fascist, let them have a normal
life, please, for england and st george!

bookie

bookie
June 20th 07, 01:54 AM
On 20 Jun, 01:37, T > wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
>
> > Hi there
> > I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> > flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> > we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> > scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> > them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> > thanks
> > Carmen
>
> If they've been house cats for this long it'd be cruel to set them out
> to the wild like that. Let them stay indoor cats.

how about giving them the choice? she didn't say she was kicking them
out for good did she? just that she was thinking of allowing them
access to the outdoors, very different thing.

bookie
June 20th 07, 02:01 AM
On 19 Jun, 12:35, *carmen* > wrote:
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen

found one of the companies that make one of these invisible fences;

http://www.freedom-fence.co.uk/

follow link above, to me the thing that they have to wear round their
necks look rather bulky but then I don;t like collars on cats anyway,
don't know whether you woudl want to put something that big on your
cats. says it only weighs 54 grams, i am sure they coudl make
something smaller though.
shame they cannot develop some sort of implant instead liek the
microchip.

anyway i am sure there are other types on the market you could try
bookie

Lynne
June 20th 07, 02:06 AM
on Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:43:21 GMT, Cheryl >
wrote:

> Mine, too! LOL But I expect it, and don't put anything breakable
> where they can get to it. Luckily they now leave my curtains and
> sheers alone, but I've had to bunch them up so they don't sweep the
> floor and look too tempting. Shamrock used to hate to share a surface
> with any thing or any one. He'd knock things off one by one watching
> as each hit the floor. Now Rhett does it. I once saw a Christmas tree
> decorated with cat toys. I'm thinking about using them as nick nacks.
> LOL

My mom had a kitten whose purpose in life seemed to be to knock anything
and everything off of every surface in her house. It used to drive her
crazy, but I thought it was hilarious. When he died from some kind of
central nervous system problem (after being blind for a few months), she
really missed him and his hell raising.

She recently brought home the wildest kitten she could find and all is
right in her world again, even though a lot of stuff is on the floor again.
:)

--
Lynne

Matthew
June 20th 07, 02:14 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> on Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:43:21 GMT, Cheryl >
> wrote:
>
>> Mine, too! LOL But I expect it, and don't put anything breakable
>> where they can get to it. Luckily they now leave my curtains and
>> sheers alone, but I've had to bunch them up so they don't sweep the
>> floor and look too tempting. Shamrock used to hate to share a surface
>> with any thing or any one. He'd knock things off one by one watching
>> as each hit the floor. Now Rhett does it. I once saw a Christmas tree
>> decorated with cat toys. I'm thinking about using them as nick nacks.
>> LOL
>
> My mom had a kitten whose purpose in life seemed to be to knock anything
> and everything off of every surface in her house. It used to drive her
> crazy, but I thought it was hilarious. When he died from some kind of
> central nervous system problem (after being blind for a few months), she
> really missed him and his hell raising.
>
> She recently brought home the wildest kitten she could find and all is
> right in her world again, even though a lot of stuff is on the floor
> again.
> :)
>
> --
> Lynne

< BIG SMILE>

Charlie Wilkes
June 20th 07, 02:50 AM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:51:21 -0700, bookie wrote:

> On 19 Jun, 20:16, "cybercat" > wrote:
>> "Spot" > wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>> > Do NOT let them out. Why would you risk their lives now?
>>
>> The same reason anyone would. Sheer stupidity.
>
> and you knwo what about the situation for domestic cats in the UK? oh
> yes NOTHING! the vast majority of cat slaves allow their cats access to
> the outside and again the vast majority of these animals are safe, we do
> not have all these savage wild predators that people have in other
> countries who may go for our cats, and most learn to be streetwise quite
> quickly in the same that kids do (or they squished i suppose cats and
> kids).

I was on the mainland for a couple of weeks and I saw a number of dead
cats on the roads.

I acquired my cat because he was lying in the middle of the road after
being injured by a car. I keep him inside, and he is the picture of
contentment. Once in awhile I let him out when I'm there to keep a sharp
eye on him. I wish I had kept a sharper eye on my dog, because she got
killed. Now my cat is all I have left, and I value him too much to let
him run around outside with speeding cars and punks with BB guns and
various other hazards.

Charlie

mariib via CatKB.com
June 20th 07, 03:21 AM
bookie wrote:
>> >> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
>> >> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
>[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>don't leave, they are generally ****s who abuse you for allowing your
>cat to go otuside (as nature requires). Just because you do not allow
>your paranoid fear of everythign outdoors stops you from allowing your
>cat to have a decent and fulfilled outdoors does not mean they have
>the right to abuse you
>
>**** 'em basically
>when you cat was going stir crazy indoors, as most cats would, you did
>the right things and allowed him access outside, you did not 'boot him
>out' as one of the cretins above has stated (how much can these peolpe
>get the wrong end fo thestick?) you just allowed him access to the
>outside, same as i do for mine because they are used to the outside
>and I believe and feel that it would be downright cruel to keep them
>in when they are crying to get out
>
>just ignore them, they are a bunch of screwed up narrow minded
>witches, who won't accept that other people have different opinions or
>way of life to them, typical yanks
>bookie

Give us a break from this incessant & becoming-very-boring rant against
everything & everyone in the US - you know those Yanks you profess to hate so-
o-o-o-o-o-o much! No, I'm not a Yank & I'm also not a Brit - I'm one of
those from the former colonies - the one where one of your precious princes
is playing big bad boy soldier. Anyone, on a calmer note, everyone is
entitled to their own view & opinion without being personally attacked for
their view. And you're a teacher, right? I sure hope this isn't the way you
handle 'discussions' in class with those who have different opinions.

BTW, my cats from 1970 through 2003 did go outside in the daytime in the warm
months April - October, but there were no dogs running loose in the
neighborhood & I was younger & more limber. My present cats don't go out
because there's now many large dogs running free & it's no longer so easy for
me to jump fences chasing Coco who in his 1st year here did NOT come back &
we often had to go after him.
M.

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200706/1

June 20th 07, 05:12 AM
sheelagh > wrote:

>If I were you, I would take Barbs advice and invest in a pair of reins
>from some where like Pets @ Home

Reins are pretty useful if you are going to ride him. :-)

-mhd

MaryL
June 20th 07, 05:48 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 20 Jun, 00:33, Patty > wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:40:41 -0500, Lynne wrote:
>> > on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>>
>> >> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
>> >> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
>> >> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
>> >> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from
>> >> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in
>> >> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an
>> >> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>>
>> > And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten. Stick
>> > to
>> > adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>>
>> > Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could
>> > have
>> > saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for being
>> > a
>> > kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.
>>
>> Yes, and in this newsgroup your opinion is the only one that should be
>> followed.
>>
>> Patty
>> I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
>> opinion it's time to leave and so I will.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> don't leave, they are generally ****s who abuse you for allowing your
> cat to go otuside (as nature requires). Just because you do not allow
> your paranoid fear of everythign outdoors stops you from allowing your
> cat to have a decent and fulfilled outdoors does not mean they have
> the right to abuse you
>
> **** 'em basically
> when you cat was going stir crazy indoors, as most cats would, you did
> the right things and allowed him access outside, you did not 'boot him
> out' as one of the cretins above has stated (how much can these peolpe
> get the wrong end fo thestick?) you just allowed him access to the
> outside, same as i do for mine because they are used to the outside
> and I believe and feel that it would be downright cruel to keep them
> in when they are crying to get out
>
> just ignore them, they are a bunch of screwed up narrow minded
> witches, who won't accept that other people have different opinions or
> way of life to them, typical yanks
> bookie
>

You know, Bookie, you keep rattling on about how narrow minded we are and
about how we won't accept anyone else's opinions -- but I really can't think
of anyone who has displayed that tendency more strongly than you have. I
don't know what has happened to cause you to have such contempt and hatred
(and possibly envy) of everything American, but you are simply placing *your
own* narrow minded views on display. I have never felt the type of
antagonism you exhibit for *any* group -- no nationality, race, ethnicity,
or religion -- and I surely hope I never do. It's really a sad commentary
on your life. You have already told us that none of us are worthy for you
to wipe your feet on. But, then, why would we want to aspire to that
pinnacle? And, for that matter, why would want to wipe your feet on anyone?
Why not sit down and read your own words, then see how they must sound to
others (and not just to Americans). I have many friends of different
nationalities, but you seem to have the most warped sense of the world of
anyone I have come in contact with. Surely you know better than to think
that everyone in the U.S. favors our foreign policy or that we are all such
disgusting slugs as you seem to think.

MaryL

James
June 20th 07, 06:05 AM
On Jun 19, 7:35 am, *carmen* > wrote:
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen

Don't know about older cats but I got my pussy at 8 weeks and she's
been an outside cat for over a year now. She only comes in to sleep
with me. After exploring all parts of the house she has decided she
rather spend most of her time outdoors. Even when it's freezing cold
or boiling hot outside she prefers the outdoor.

There were times when she was young that worried me when she first ran
across the street and when she didn't come home at night. I have a
fenced in back yard so she was confined till she learned to climb over
the fence. By that time she knew me and where home was and know her
way home.

Lost cats probably were always locked up inside and wouldn't recognise
their own house from the outside.

I don't worry about her any more because I feel she's smart enough to
take care of herself. Of course it's possible she might get hit by a
car. It's also possible I might get hit by a car but I'm not going to
give up driving or crossing streets when walking.

*carmen*
June 20th 07, 07:32 AM
On 20 Jun, 05:12, wrote:
> sheelagh > wrote:
> >If I were you, I would take Barbs advice and invest in a pair of reins
> >from some where like Pets @ Home
>
> Reins are pretty useful if you are going to ride him. :-)
>
> -mhd

Thank you and everyone for the advise. I am actually impressed.
Last night when we got home we built the fence. There was one before
but "only" about 1.70 m. Phoebe the wee cat went flying over it the
other day. I don't know how could she do that as I said, she has live
indoors all her life.
it was agony to look for her but she could not care less when we found
her. Too brave for so little.
Now they have tested it they meaow all the time asking to go out.
Before they did no have a problem apart that Patrick is bored inside
and goes bulimic. He needs out I think.
By the way we live in Scotland.
Carmen

MaryL
June 20th 07, 07:46 AM
"*carmen*" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Thank you and everyone for the advise. I am actually impressed.
> Last night when we got home we built the fence. There was one before
> but "only" about 1.70 m. Phoebe the wee cat went flying over it the
> other day. I don't know how could she do that as I said, she has live
> indoors all her life.
> it was agony to look for her but she could not care less when we found
> her. Too brave for so little.
> Now they have tested it they meaow all the time asking to go out.
> Before they did no have a problem apart that Patrick is bored inside
> and goes bulimic. He needs out I think.
> By the way we live in Scotland.
> Carmen
>

It sounds nice. You should post some pictures for us. I'm not surprised
that your indoor cat could go flying like that. Holly (12 years old) leaps
to the mantel with no problem at all.

MaryL

Ryan Robbins
June 20th 07, 09:52 AM
"*carmen*" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?

Yeah -- don't let them out. Cats don't enjoy being maimed or killed. Nor do
the owners who supposedly love them.

Either buy a harness and leash and walk with the cats, or build a solid
outdoor enclosure for them.

cybercat
June 20th 07, 03:20 PM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "*carmen*" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> Thank you and everyone for the advise. I am actually impressed.
>> Last night when we got home we built the fence. There was one before
>> but "only" about 1.70 m. Phoebe the wee cat went flying over it the
>> other day. I don't know how could she do that as I said, she has live
>> indoors all her life.
>> it was agony to look for her but she could not care less when we found
>> her. Too brave for so little.
>> Now they have tested it they meaow all the time asking to go out.
>> Before they did no have a problem apart that Patrick is bored inside
>> and goes bulimic. He needs out I think.
>> By the way we live in Scotland.
>> Carmen
>>
>
> It sounds nice. You should post some pictures for us. I'm not surprised
> that your indoor cat could go flying like that. Holly (12 years old)
> leaps to the mantel with no problem at all.
>

It does sound nice, I would love to see it. It is really wonderful to hear
froma poster in the UK who actually realizes that there are dangers outside
for
cats who are allowed to roam, and cares enough to take precautions before
simply opening the door.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Lynne
June 20th 07, 03:26 PM
on Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:20:05 GMT, "cybercat" >
wrote:

> It does sound nice, I would love to see it. It is really wonderful to
> hear froma poster in the UK who actually realizes that there are
> dangers outside for
> cats who are allowed to roam, and cares enough to take precautions
> before simply opening the door.

Agree--very refreshing.

--
Lynne

dgk
June 20th 07, 03:38 PM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:16:15 -0400, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"Patty" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:59:04 -0700, Fred G. Mackey wrote:
>>
>>> I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.
>>
>> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
>> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
>> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking many
>> items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from work one
>> day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in the living
>> room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an old home and
>> the
>> ceilings are 9 feet off the floor), I said "enough" and he went outside.
>> He's been a great cat ever since. He needed space to run and he needed to
>> hunt.
>>
>> I'm not paranoid enough to keep a cat that needs to go outside in, and
>> today Rusty is more than 16 years old. Oh, and we've never seen a case of
>> the plague either.
>>
>
>So you are willing to take a chance with your animal's life. Some of us are
>not.
>You must be so proud.
>

Everything is a risk and a balance. I fenced in my little backyard so
the cats can't leave, but one or another has managed to do so and I
quickly got them back and fixed the fence to prevent that. Still,
oPossoms manage to get in and out, but they can climb better than cats
since they have two pairs of opposable thumbs.

So, there is a risk that the boys and girl could get out, balanced
against their clear enjoyment of lying in the grass or under a bush
watching the birds and squirrels. I decided that it was worth the risk
so that they can enjoy a more natural existence. And they only go out
when I'm home and I usually sit out with them. Or, I have a camera set
up and I watch them on TV while I work on the computer.

I have friends who live in West Virginia in a neighborhood where none
of the houses have fences and there are lots of open fields around.
Their cat and the other neighborhood cats wander around and often eat
out at other cat's homes, and sometimes neighbor cats join their cat
for a snack at their home. That sort of reminds me of the way I grew
up, where we would see what our friends were having for dinner and
decide to eat there.

On the other hand, when I was living in an apartment, the cats had to
stay in the apartment and I would sometimes treat them to a walk in
the hallway. It all just depends on the situation.

As for the original poster, ask what other folks in the area do. But I
really worry about roads, since cats that have lived indoors all their
lives have no concept of the dangers. If you can fence in your yard so
the cats can't wander off your property, that is really the best
solution. See www.CatFenceIn.com. I built my own, but their solution
looks good.

bookie
June 20th 07, 05:47 PM
On 20 Jun, 15:38, dgk > wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:16:15 -0400, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Patty" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:59:04 -0700, Fred G. Mackey wrote:
>
> >>> I'd be interested in what your definition of "destroyed" is.
>
> >> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
> >> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
> >> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking many
> >> items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from work one
> >> day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in the living
> >> room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an old home and
> >> the
> >> ceilings are 9 feet off the floor), I said "enough" and he went outside.
> >> He's been a great cat ever since. He needed space to run and he needed to
> >> hunt.
>
> >> I'm not paranoid enough to keep a cat that needs to go outside in, and
> >> today Rusty is more than 16 years old. Oh, and we've never seen a case of
> >> the plague either.
>
> >So you are willing to take a chance with your animal's life. Some of us are
> >not.
> >You must be so proud.
>
> Everything is a risk and a balance. I fenced in my little backyard so
> the cats can't leave, but one or another has managed to do so and I
> quickly got them back and fixed the fence to prevent that. Still,
> oPossoms manage to get in and out, but they can climb better than cats
> since they have two pairs of opposable thumbs.
>
> So, there is a risk that the boys and girl could get out, balanced
> against their clear enjoyment of lying in the grass or under a bush
> watching the birds and squirrels. I decided that it was worth the risk
> so that they can enjoy a more natural existence. And they only go out
> when I'm home and I usually sit out with them. Or, I have a camera set
> up and I watch them on TV while I work on the computer.
>
> I have friends who live in West Virginia in a neighborhood where none
> of the houses have fences and there are lots of open fields around.
> Their cat and the other neighborhood cats wander around and often eat
> out at other cat's homes, and sometimes neighbor cats join their cat
> for a snack at their home. That sort of reminds me of the way I grew
> up, where we would see what our friends were having for dinner and
> decide to eat there.
>
> On the other hand, when I was living in an apartment, the cats had to
> stay in the apartment and I would sometimes treat them to a walk in
> the hallway. It all just depends on the situation.
>
> As for the original poster, ask what other folks in the area do. But I
> really worry about roads, since cats that have lived indoors all their
> lives have no concept of the dangers. If you can fence in your yard so
> the cats can't wander off your property, that is really the best
> solution. Seewww.CatFenceIn.com. I built my own, but their solution
> looks good.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i think if i had an apartment I would really think twice about having
a cat, maybe a really REALLY old cat, one that was FIV or something
who could not go out at all, and only then if I had a huge flat for
said puss to run aronud in and I woudl have to invest in lots of cat
gyms and climbign frame for them. i certainly would not get a kitten
or young cat in a flat, not really fair on them, they would go stir
crazy.

i agree what you say about roads as outdoor cats get used to roads and
get to learn the dangers and abuot their locality and their way home,
but if an indoor cat gets out they get lost easily as they have never
been out and they do not know about cars etc, so they are more
susceptible to being hit if they do escape I suppose, sad really

bookie

bookie
June 20th 07, 05:49 PM
On 20 Jun, 05:48, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 20 Jun, 00:33, Patty > wrote:
> >> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:40:41 -0500, Lynne wrote:
> >> > on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
> >> >> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
> >> >> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of the
> >> >> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
> >> >> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home from
> >> >> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod in
> >> >> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in an
> >> >> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>
> >> > And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten. Stick
> >> > to
> >> > adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>
> >> > Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could
> >> > have
> >> > saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for being
> >> > a
> >> > kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.
>
> >> Yes, and in this newsgroup your opinion is the only one that should be
> >> followed.
>
> >> Patty
> >> I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
> >> opinion it's time to leave and so I will.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > don't leave, they are generally ****s who abuse you for allowing your
> > cat to go otuside (as nature requires). Just because you do not allow
> > your paranoid fear of everythign outdoors stops you from allowing your
> > cat to have a decent and fulfilled outdoors does not mean they have
> > the right to abuse you
>
> > **** 'em basically
> > when you cat was going stir crazy indoors, as most cats would, you did
> > the right things and allowed him access outside, you did not 'boot him
> > out' as one of the cretins above has stated (how much can these peolpe
> > get the wrong end fo thestick?) you just allowed him access to the
> > outside, same as i do for mine because they are used to the outside
> > and I believe and feel that it would be downright cruel to keep them
> > in when they are crying to get out
>
> > just ignore them, they are a bunch of screwed up narrow minded
> > witches, who won't accept that other people have different opinions or
> > way of life to them, typical yanks
> > bookie
>
> You know, Bookie, you keep rattling on about how narrow minded we are and
> about how we won't accept anyone else's opinions -- but I really can't think
> of anyone who has displayed that tendency more strongly than you have. I
> don't know what has happened to cause you to have such contempt and hatred
> (and possibly envy) of everything American, but you are simply placing *your
> own* narrow minded views on display. I have never felt the type of
> antagonism you exhibit for *any* group -- no nationality, race, ethnicity,
> or religion -- and I surely hope I never do. It's really a sad commentary
> on your life. You have already told us that none of us are worthy for you
> to wipe your feet on. But, then, why would we want to aspire to that
> pinnacle? And, for that matter, why would want to wipe your feet on anyone?
> Why not sit down and read your own words, then see how they must sound to
> others (and not just to Americans). I have many friends of different
> nationalities, but you seem to have the most warped sense of the world of
> anyone I have come in contact with. Surely you know better than to think
> that everyone in the U.S. favors our foreign policy or that we are all such
> disgusting slugs as you seem to think.
>
> MaryL- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

so funny how you all get so worked up about a simple comment about you
country, keep 'em coming!

bookie
June 20th 07, 05:50 PM
On 20 Jun, 02:50, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:51:21 -0700, bookie wrote:
> > On 19 Jun, 20:16, "cybercat" > wrote:
> >> "Spot" > wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]
>
> >> > Do NOT let them out. Why would you risk their lives now?
>
> >> The same reason anyone would. Sheer stupidity.
>
> > and you knwo what about the situation for domestic cats in the UK? oh
> > yes NOTHING! the vast majority of cat slaves allow their cats access to
> > the outside and again the vast majority of these animals are safe, we do
> > not have all these savage wild predators that people have in other
> > countries who may go for our cats, and most learn to be streetwise quite
> > quickly in the same that kids do (or they squished i suppose cats and
> > kids).
>
> I was on the mainland for a couple of weeks and I saw a number of dead
> cats on the roads.
>
> I acquired my cat because he was lying in the middle of the road after
> being injured by a car. I keep him inside, and he is the picture of
> contentment. Once in awhile I let him out when I'm there to keep a sharp
> eye on him. I wish I had kept a sharper eye on my dog, because she got
> killed. Now my cat is all I have left, and I value him too much to let
> him run around outside with speeding cars and punks with BB guns and
> various other hazards.
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

christ where were you? in my life I think i have seen about 3 dead
cats on the road, no more than that

bookie
June 20th 07, 05:52 PM
On 20 Jun, 07:32, *carmen* > wrote:
> On 20 Jun, 05:12, wrote:
>
> > sheelagh > wrote:
> > >If I were you, I would take Barbs advice and invest in a pair of reins
> > >from some where like Pets @ Home
>
> > Reins are pretty useful if you are going to ride him. :-)
>
> > -mhd
>
> Thank you and everyone for the advise. I am actually impressed.
> Last night when we got home we built the fence. There was one before
> but "only" about 1.70 m. Phoebe the wee cat went flying over it the
> other day. I don't know how could she do that as I said, she has live
> indoors all her life.
> it was agony to look for her but she could not care less when we found
> her. Too brave for so little.
> Now they have tested it they meaow all the time asking to go out.
> Before they did no have a problem apart that Patrick is bored inside
> and goes bulimic. He needs out I think.
> By the way we live in Scotland.
> Carmen

where in scotland? middle of nowhere or near some drug-riddled sink
estate in glasgow? makes a difference as if in the middle of nowhere
then you are probably safe to let them out

bookie
June 20th 07, 05:54 PM
On 20 Jun, 15:20, "cybercat" > wrote:
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "*carmen*" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
> >> Thank you and everyone for the advise. I am actually impressed.
> >> Last night when we got home we built the fence. There was one before
> >> but "only" about 1.70 m. Phoebe the wee cat went flying over it the
> >> other day. I don't know how could she do that as I said, she has live
> >> indoors all her life.
> >> it was agony to look for her but she could not care less when we found
> >> her. Too brave for so little.
> >> Now they have tested it they meaow all the time asking to go out.
> >> Before they did no have a problem apart that Patrick is bored inside
> >> and goes bulimic. He needs out I think.
> >> By the way we live in Scotland.
> >> Carmen
>
> > It sounds nice. You should post some pictures for us. I'm not surprised
> > that your indoor cat could go flying like that. Holly (12 years old)
> > leaps to the mantel with no problem at all.
>
> It does sound nice, I would love to see it. It is really wonderful to hear
> froma poster in the UK who actually realizes that there are dangers outside
> for
> cats who are allowed to roam, and cares enough to take precautions before
> simply opening the door.
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

we all realise there are dangers outside, just that we have weighed up
the risks and most of us have decided that the risk are negligible
where we live and for the type of cats we have.
bvut you keep going with your skewed opinions, that's fine

bookie
June 20th 07, 05:58 PM
On 20 Jun, 00:52, Igenlode <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-
]> wrote:
> On 19 Jun 2007 *carmen* wrote:
>
> > Hi there
> > I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> > flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> > we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> > scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> > them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>
> Make sure you go out with them the first few times. They'll probably
> keep coming back to you to 'check' anyway. If they do panic, they'll
> probably dash back to the cover of the house, and known territory.
> But cats are both intelligent and curious animals, and they'll probably
> be fascinated.
>
> After a short while they'll probably establish boundaries to their
> territory along natural demarcation lines, i.e. a hedge, a stream, a
> fence.
>
> The only thing that is likely to attack them is a fox (or possibly guard
> dog), and one gets the impression that there are far more foxes in the
> towns these days than there are left out in the country, where they
> might actually have to hunt for a living... I'd be more worried about
> repercussions from neighbouring farm cats if your two accidentally stray
> into their territory, and their reactions to moving vehicles. Normally
> cats acquire 'road sense' fairly young, but if yours have been kept shut
> up and away from other animals, they won't know what to do.
>
> We had a dreadful job keeping our pair in until they had their
> inoculations -- the first time the female went out, she went through a
> hole in the wire and then couldn't find it again to get back! I was
> running up and down the hedge calling to her, with the kitten calling
> back, trying to guide her back to the hole she'd squeezed through; I was
> afraid I'd have to go round the other side myself, but she eventually
> worked it out.
>
> Male cats seem to explore further afield than female, neutered or not;
> if they do get 'lost', try calling for long periods of time so that they
> can navigate back to the sound of your voice. I've ended up doing this
> several times now, and the cat usually turns up some time later, having
> clearly travelled back from some considerable distance; I don't worry
> now unless they're gone for over 24 hours.
> --
> Igenlode Visit the Ivory Tower http://ivory.150m.com/Tower/
>
> * The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret *

and also let them out before you feed them in the morning or evening
as they won't go far and will be more likely to come back in due to
hunger and wanting their breakfast. and yes go with them for the first
few times, my jessie who is 16/17 and very streetwise won't go too far
down the cul-de-sac without me by her side, she ain't that stupid, and
when I turn to go back home she scurries back after me as she knows
she is 'safe' with me

and yes foxes more prevalent in towns now than wilds of scotland, much
more food in towns

PawsForThought
June 20th 07, 06:04 PM
On Jun 19, 1:41 pm, Patty > wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:05:01 -0700, PawsForThought wrote:
> > I find that usually people who say their cat destroyed their house are
> > people who haven't trained their cats properly, or who haven't
> > provided appropriate scratching surfaces for the cat.
>
> They've always had "appropriate scratching surfaces" and have never clawed
> up furniture. We had our last sofa for 20 years (longer than the cats) and
> it was never scratched or clawed. I guess I could have kept Rusty from
> climbing by chaining him to the floor.
>
> Patty

Or you could have gotten a nice floor to ceiling cat tree for Rusty.
I have very active cats, my male in particular. I have provided them
with a floor to ceiling cat tree in front of a picture window and
another floor to ceiling cat tree in the bedroom in front of a
window. I also use vertical blinds and mini blinds instead of
curtains, although I did have curtains at my last house but trained
the cats not to climb them. I also made the strings used to open and
close the blinds childproof (they sell kits for this purpose, or you
can make your own). I also spend time playing with my cats with
interactive toys. IMO, cats, especially indoor cats, need their own
cat furniture and also need interactive playtime. My male does still
jump up on top of my china cabinet. But there's nothing up there that
he could destroy.

PawsForThought
June 20th 07, 06:15 PM
On Jun 19, 6:07 pm, wrote:
> "Matthew" > wrote:
> >Cyber has a good idea about the fence but to prevent them from getting over
> >the fence they make a top that can prevent animals from coming in and out
>
> I've been lucky that my cats recognize boundaries such as the railing
> around the deck (with a gate) and never try to jump up or squeeze
> through.
>
> I think they're actually too chicken to go any further.
>
> -mhd

You're lucky. All it would take is one squirrel and my cat would be
after it, no matter where it took him. I'll never forget when I
opened my front door one time and Mickey saw a squirrel. Before I
could stop him, he tore out of the house and was chasing the squirrel
up a tree. Luckily we were able to get him back. Took a few weeks of
training him away from the door with a tin container full of pennies,
but now he stays away from the door. But I'm still extra careful with
him.

I had a cat that I used to let outside. I figured I lived in a rural
area at the time so it was okay. Unfortunately it wasn't. She got
killed by either a dog or it might have been an owl (the kind that
prey on small animals). We don't know for sure. It was a hard lesson
to learn and I haven't let a cat outside since (except on a leash and
harness). There's just too many dangers. One of these days I'd like
to build an enclosure for them.

Lilah Morgan
June 20th 07, 07:05 PM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> I had a cat that I used to let outside. I figured I lived in a rural
> area at the time so it was okay. Unfortunately it wasn't. She got
> killed by either a dog or it might have been an owl (the kind that
> prey on small animals). We don't know for sure. It was a hard lesson
> to learn and I haven't let a cat outside since (except on a leash and
> harness). There's just too many dangers. One of these days I'd like
> to build an enclosure for them.

I live in a rural area too, have for the past for 4 years(though in 2
different locations), and here(for the past 1.5years) I would never let my
cat out. I did once because he was used to being allowed outside, but he
doesn't like going outside here, he just stayed under the porch the whole
time(I insisted on supervising him). Anyways, the reason I don't let him out
here anymore is because there are owls(they killed one of my hens, I got
there a few seconds too late, but soon enough to shoo the owl off...it had
probably killed the hen no more than 15seconds 'fore I got there, hadn't
even started eating), and skunks, and one morning last winter I went out to
feed all the critters, and our goose couple was in a fenced pen, and the
male was sitting in a corner, his neck column sticking out the fence
skinned, and there was no head, and blood/feathers all over that corner. We
have since put chicken wire all around the sides of that pen(the fencing
wasn't chain link, it was square stuff, probably 2 or 3 inches on each side
of the square, so something could grab his head, but nothing else.
Occassionally at night off in the forest service land next to our property I
have heard howling, so none of the dogs go out unsupervised, and the
chickens/bunnies/geese are penned up at night. It's not like we couldn't
stand to lose a few chickens(namely our overabundance of roosters), but
that's not the point. I want animals to be safe on our property. The little
stream/pond I made a few weeks back(along with all the lush grass all over
the yard), it encouraged a wild momma duck and her newly hatched babies to
come check the place out, and I'd like more of those events to happen. We
have deer occassionally too(last Feburary had like 8 deer in the yard, I got
some pictures). It's my goal to make this kind of a wildlife sanctuary
type(not an official/legal/business type one though), where animals come to
be safe and enjoy some good food, and any time of the year you can look out
the window and see nature's bounty.

Charlie Wilkes
June 20th 07, 10:17 PM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:50:54 -0700, bookie wrote:
>
> christ where were you? in my life I think i have seen about 3 dead cats
> on the road, no more than that

North Whatcom County, Washington state... a rural, largely wooded area
full of careless hicks who drive too fast for the road conditions. One
day about a week ago I saw a particularly gruesome sight. Someone in a
big pickup truck passed me going 20 miles over the speed limit, and
seconds later, when I rounded a curve, I saw that he had just hit a cat,
and it was convulsing in the middle of the lane. I got out to try to
help it, but it was dead, with a broken spine and a crushed skull. And
it was a nursing queen, probably a feral with a litter hidden in a shed
or the back seat of an old car.

I suspect you are deluding yourself by thinking that England is safer and
more enlightened. You have told me yourself about the nasty/hostile/
alienated twerps you have to try to teach... how do they amuse themselves
on weekends? Sheelagh posted her saga about the kids with a BB gun who
shot her cat, so we know that's one of the ways. And what about your
Suffolk neighbor, the wholesome-looking young man who was recently
unmasked as a pedophile chat-room impresario? We live in a sick,
demented, cruel world, Bookie, and your corner of it is not exempt. I
think you are confusing an extended run of good luck with actually
knowing what you are talking about.

Do you remember the person who posted under the name "I am so sad" a
couple of weeks ago? She was distraught because her cat had been killed
by a car. The cat was her main companion in life and the main reason she
looked forward to getting home from work.

If you feel a need to urge people to let their cats go outdoors, you had
better be prepared to handle the grief and resentment when someone's
precious pet gets killed because the owner followed your advice.

Charlie

MaryL
June 21st 07, 12:38 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 20 Jun, 05:48, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
> wrote:
>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 20 Jun, 00:33, Patty > wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:40:41 -0500, Lynne wrote:
>> >> > on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty >
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
>> >> >> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
>> >> >> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>>
>> >> > And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten.
>> >> > Stick
>> >> > to
>> >> > adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>>
>> >> > Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could
>> >> > have
>> >> > saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for
>> >> > being
>> >> > a
>> >> > kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.
>>
>> >> Yes, and in this newsgroup your opinion is the only one that should be
>> >> followed.
>>
>> >> Patty
>> >> I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
>> >> opinion it's time to leave and so I will.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > don't leave, they are generally ****s who abuse you for allowing your
>> > cat to go otuside (as nature requires). Just because you do not allow
>> > your paranoid fear of everythign outdoors stops you from allowing your
>> > cat to have a decent and fulfilled outdoors does not mean they have
>> > the right to abuse you
>>
>> > **** 'em basically
>> > when you cat was going stir crazy indoors, as most cats would, you did
>> > the right things and allowed him access outside, you did not 'boot him
>> > out' as one of the cretins above has stated (how much can these peolpe
>> > get the wrong end fo thestick?) you just allowed him access to the
>> > outside, same as i do for mine because they are used to the outside
>> > and I believe and feel that it would be downright cruel to keep them
>> > in when they are crying to get out
>>
>> > just ignore them, they are a bunch of screwed up narrow minded
>> > witches, who won't accept that other people have different opinions or
>> > way of life to them, typical yanks
>> > bookie
>>
>> You know, Bookie, you keep rattling on about how narrow minded we are and
>> about how we won't accept anyone else's opinions -- but I really can't
>> think
>> of anyone who has displayed that tendency more strongly than you have. I
>> don't know what has happened to cause you to have such contempt and
>> hatred
>> (and possibly envy) of everything American, but you are simply placing
>> *your
>> own* narrow minded views on display. I have never felt the type of
>> antagonism you exhibit for *any* group -- no nationality, race,
>> ethnicity,
>> or religion -- and I surely hope I never do. It's really a sad
>> commentary
>> on your life. You have already told us that none of us are worthy for
>> you
>> to wipe your feet on. But, then, why would we want to aspire to that
>> pinnacle? And, for that matter, why would want to wipe your feet on
>> anyone?
>> Why not sit down and read your own words, then see how they must sound to
>> others (and not just to Americans). I have many friends of different
>> nationalities, but you seem to have the most warped sense of the world of
>> anyone I have come in contact with. Surely you know better than to think
>> that everyone in the U.S. favors our foreign policy or that we are all
>> such
>> disgusting slugs as you seem to think.
>>
>> MaryL- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> so funny how you all get so worked up about a simple comment about you
> country, keep 'em coming!
>

I'm not "all worked up" about this and only responded after you made
repeated comments. Does it bother me? Not at all. I simply think you have
made yourself look rather idiotic, and those of use who formerly were
willing to help you will probably just ignore your remarks from now on.

MaryL

bookie
June 21st 07, 01:18 AM
On 21 Jun, 00:38, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 20 Jun, 05:48, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
> > wrote:
> >> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> >> > On 20 Jun, 00:33, Patty > wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:40:41 -0500, Lynne wrote:
> >> >> > on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty >
> >> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >> >> Ripped my curtains to shreds, knocked everything of the top of the
> >> >> >> cupboards (you know, the space between the ceiling and the top of
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> kitchen cupboard?), knocked anything on a flat surface off breaking
> >> >> >> many items (even the top of the refrigerator). When I came home
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> work one day and found him dangling from the top of the curtain rod
> >> >> >> in
> >> >> >> the living room (the windows are nearly ceiling height, (I live in
> >> >> >> an
> >> >> >> old home and the ceilings are 9 feet off the floor),
>
> >> >> > And by the way, I recommend that you never get another kitten.
> >> >> > Stick
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > adult cats. None of the above sounds unusual to me...
>
> >> >> > Now had you put away the breakables and trimmed his nails, you could
> >> >> > have
> >> >> > saved some of your prized possessions. To toss him outdoors for
> >> >> > being
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > kitten and then call him 'fixed' is just illogical as hell.
>
> >> >> Yes, and in this newsgroup your opinion is the only one that should be
> >> >> followed.
>
> >> >> Patty
> >> >> I said it once before. When people attack each other for a different
> >> >> opinion it's time to leave and so I will.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > don't leave, they are generally ****s who abuse you for allowing your
> >> > cat to go otuside (as nature requires). Just because you do not allow
> >> > your paranoid fear of everythign outdoors stops you from allowing your
> >> > cat to have a decent and fulfilled outdoors does not mean they have
> >> > the right to abuse you
>
> >> > **** 'em basically
> >> > when you cat was going stir crazy indoors, as most cats would, you did
> >> > the right things and allowed him access outside, you did not 'boot him
> >> > out' as one of the cretins above has stated (how much can these peolpe
> >> > get the wrong end fo thestick?) you just allowed him access to the
> >> > outside, same as i do for mine because they are used to the outside
> >> > and I believe and feel that it would be downright cruel to keep them
> >> > in when they are crying to get out
>
> >> > just ignore them, they are a bunch of screwed up narrow minded
> >> > witches, who won't accept that other people have different opinions or
> >> > way of life to them, typical yanks
> >> > bookie
>
> >> You know, Bookie, you keep rattling on about how narrow minded we are and
> >> about how we won't accept anyone else's opinions -- but I really can't
> >> think
> >> of anyone who has displayed that tendency more strongly than you have. I
> >> don't know what has happened to cause you to have such contempt and
> >> hatred
> >> (and possibly envy) of everything American, but you are simply placing
> >> *your
> >> own* narrow minded views on display. I have never felt the type of
> >> antagonism you exhibit for *any* group -- no nationality, race,
> >> ethnicity,
> >> or religion -- and I surely hope I never do. It's really a sad
> >> commentary
> >> on your life. You have already told us that none of us are worthy for
> >> you
> >> to wipe your feet on. But, then, why would we want to aspire to that
> >> pinnacle? And, for that matter, why would want to wipe your feet on
> >> anyone?
> >> Why not sit down and read your own words, then see how they must sound to
> >> others (and not just to Americans). I have many friends of different
> >> nationalities, but you seem to have the most warped sense of the world of
> >> anyone I have come in contact with. Surely you know better than to think
> >> that everyone in the U.S. favors our foreign policy or that we are all
> >> such
> >> disgusting slugs as you seem to think.
>
> >> MaryL- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > so funny how you all get so worked up about a simple comment about you
> > country, keep 'em coming!
>
> I'm not "all worked up" about this and only responded after you made
> repeated comments. Does it bother me? Not at all. I simply think you have
> made yourself look rather idiotic, and those of use who formerly were
> willing to help you will probably just ignore your remarks from now on.
>
> MaryL- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i don't need or want your help, why would I?

bookie
June 21st 07, 01:33 AM
On 20 Jun, 22:17, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:50:54 -0700, bookie wrote:
>
> > christ where were you? in my life I think i have seen about 3 dead cats
> > on the road, no more than that
>
> North Whatcom County, Washington state... a rural, largely wooded area
> full of careless hicks who drive too fast for the road conditions. One
> day about a week ago I saw a particularly gruesome sight. Someone in a
> big pickup truck passed me going 20 miles over the speed limit, and
> seconds later, when I rounded a curve, I saw that he had just hit a cat,
> and it was convulsing in the middle of the lane. I got out to try to
> help it, but it was dead, with a broken spine and a crushed skull. And
> it was a nursing queen, probably a feral with a litter hidden in a shed
> or the back seat of an old car.
>
> I suspect you are deluding yourself by thinking that England is safer and
> more enlightened. You have told me yourself about the nasty/hostile/
> alienated twerps you have to try to teach... how do they amuse themselves
> on weekends? Sheelagh posted her saga about the kids with a BB gun who
> shot her cat, so we know that's one of the ways. And what about your
> Suffolk neighbor, the wholesome-looking young man who was recently
> unmasked as a pedophile chat-room impresario? We live in a sick,
> demented, cruel world, Bookie, and your corner of it is not exempt. I
> think you are confusing an extended run of good luck with actually
> knowing what you are talking about.
>
> Do you remember the person who posted under the name "I am so sad" a
> couple of weeks ago? She was distraught because her cat had been killed
> by a car. The cat was her main companion in life and the main reason she
> looked forward to getting home from work.
>
> If you feel a need to urge people to let their cats go outdoors, you had
> better be prepared to handle the grief and resentment when someone's
> precious pet gets killed because the owner followed your advice.
>
> Charlie

animals and people die, that is the sad fact of life, and I am not
going to let paranoia aboiut the outside world cause me to restrict my
cats freedom and access to my garden (which is only possible when i am
here anyway as we have no cat flap).
just because a death causes people pain and grief do you then think
that NOONE shodl be allowed outside for fear of comign to some harm?
what about people's kids or other loved ones? they may get run over
too so should they also stay inside, scared of the terrors of the
outside world? They should be ok travelling in a car thought shouldn't
they? OH NO! they may be involved in a fatal car crash where they die
before the fireman can cut them oout off their vehicles!!!

for christ's sake, get a grip, there are hazards everywhere for all of
us, i never said that there were none at all here inthe UK just that
we do not have so many wild animals who would prey on our cats and
some of our villages etc are very rural and quiet with very narrow
country lanes which make driving fast VERY difficult. We all face
hazards whenever we go out, but you have to weigh the risk of being
run over or mugged or whatever weith the need or desire to go outside
and in the majority of places inthe UK that risk is VERY VERY small.

as for guns inthis country i a not going to go that road again but we
do not have a massive gun culture here, you are not allowed to own a
gun unless you have a liocence to do so, and kids with illegal guns in
their possession are of a certain type who carry them for personal
protection because of the types of shady individuals they liek to do
business with (ie drug dealers). Since I have had to deal with these
types of teenagers in school i know this, they do not waste bullets
and energy shooting at peoples pets, just not cool intheir environment
in cities, but of course you know since you knwo all about urban youth
culture in britain today don't you?
yes there are instances of some retards taking pops at animals but
these are not common as apart form in a few environments (inner
cities) it is very hard to get hold of a gun without a licence, and
those who do have unlicenced firearms use them for 'business' and
personal protection in the urban environment they live in whilst going
about their daily business, NOT for shooting at cats. We do nto have
'rednecks' in this country who shoot at animals on daddy's farm cos
they are too stupid to think or anything better to do as you seem to
have in your country, we have a very different demographic here,
violence tends to be directed more at other young people in othergangs
in urban areas.

you have no idea what the situation is here in the UK do you? you
really are not in a position to advise the OP whether she should allow
her cats outside as you have no idea what it is like in this country
at all do you? so don't comment, simple
bookie

barb
June 21st 07, 01:37 AM
Ryan Robbins wrote:

Yeah -- don't let them out. Cats don't enjoy being maimed or killed. Nor do
the owners who supposedly love them.

Either buy a harness and leash and walk with the cats, or build a solid
outdoor enclosure for them.

Right on, Ryan. That's about what I said about 100 posts ago!

Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.

bookie
June 21st 07, 01:41 AM
On 21 Jun, 01:37, "barb" > wrote:
> Ryan Robbins wrote:
>
> Yeah -- don't let them out. Cats don't enjoy being maimed or killed. Nor do
> the owners who supposedly love them.
>
> Either buy a harness and leash and walk with the cats, or build a solid
> outdoor enclosure for them.
>
> Right on, Ryan. That's about what I said about 100 posts ago!
>
> Barb
> Of course I don't look busy,
> I did it right the first time.

yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
may get hit by a car crossing the road or squashed by a falling bit of
plane fusilage, or perhaps attacked and chopped to death by a gang of
crazed knifemen, or blown up by a bunch of arabian terrorists, or set
fire to a bunch of arsonists on a day out from the local prison, or
killed in a sudden earthquake where large cracks appear inthe ground
and you fall down one and don't stop falling until you reach the
centre of the earth and can never be rescued, or you are hit by
lightening, or you are pecked to death by a flock of killer pigeons on
the loose, or you get carried off by a freak tornado which has
appeared from nowhere and you are never seen again!!!!

jesus christ almighty! get a bloody grip ladies, what could happen to
your cat could happen to you and amusing though this yank paranoia is
about all the death and destruction and danger there is in the world
outside your front door it does get really very silly indeed and it is
a real shame that you are trying to pass your own pathetic fears on to
other people in other parts of the world who live in environments
which are nothing like your own. Even more of a shame that your fears
prevent your cats enjoying the great outdoors in the way they should,
I really pity your cats, I really do
bookie

Cheryl
June 21st 07, 01:44 AM
On Tue 19 Jun 2007 09:06:10p, Lynne wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
. 97.142>:

> She recently brought home the wildest kitten she could find and
> all is right in her world again, even though a lot of stuff is
> on the floor again.
>:)


Aww, I'm glad she found a new kitty to fit that hard-to-replace void.

--
Cheryl

Cheryl
June 21st 07, 01:46 AM
On Wed 20 Jun 2007 07:38:55p, MaryL wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
>:

>> so funny how you all get so worked up about a simple comment
>> about you country, keep 'em coming!
>>
>
> I'm not "all worked up" about this and only responded after you
> made repeated comments. Does it bother me? Not at all. I
> simply think you have made yourself look rather idiotic, and
> those of use who formerly were willing to help you will probably
> just ignore your remarks from now on.
>

Mary, she's hopeless. I quit reading her posts when she started
reminding me of someone else (also British) from years ago.
Wouldn't be surprised if she was "him" reincarnated. He did used
to morph with women's names when it suited his agenda. Bookie's a
lost cause.

--
Cheryl

MaryL
June 21st 07, 01:54 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed 20 Jun 2007 07:38:55p, MaryL wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> >:
>
>>> so funny how you all get so worked up about a simple comment
>>> about you country, keep 'em coming!
>>>
>>
>> I'm not "all worked up" about this and only responded after you
>> made repeated comments. Does it bother me? Not at all. I
>> simply think you have made yourself look rather idiotic, and
>> those of use who formerly were willing to help you will probably
>> just ignore your remarks from now on.
>>
>
> Mary, she's hopeless. I quit reading her posts when she started
> reminding me of someone else (also British) from years ago.
> Wouldn't be surprised if she was "him" reincarnated. He did used
> to morph with women's names when it suited his agenda. Bookie's a
> lost cause.
>
> --
> Cheryl
>


Yes, I've reached the same conclusion. It doesn't bother me -- I'll just
save some time and ignore her.

Thanks,
MaryL

Cheryl
June 21st 07, 02:51 AM
On Tue 19 Jun 2007 06:37:02p, Lynne wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
. 97.142>:

> And now a bone to chew! Hehe.

This wasn't a score to them. They have kicked it around a bit, but
Rhett isn't chewing on it like I thought he might. I just sprayed it
with catnip spray, and it resulted in Shamrock going nuts (but
leaving the bone alone) and Rhett ignored it. It just doesn't
measure up to the plastic he loves chewing. I'll look for a nylabone
when I go to the store next time.

--
Cheryl

Rhonda
June 21st 07, 06:13 AM
bookie wrote:
> On 21 Jun, 01:37, "barb" > wrote:
>
>>Ryan Robbins wrote:
>>
>>Yeah -- don't let them out. Cats don't enjoy being maimed or killed. Nor do
>>the owners who supposedly love them.
>>
>>Either buy a harness and leash and walk with the cats, or build a solid
>>outdoor enclosure for them.
>>
>>Right on, Ryan. That's about what I said about 100 posts ago!
>>
>>Barb
>>Of course I don't look busy,
>>I did it right the first time.
>
>
> yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
> may get hit by a car crossing the road or squashed by a falling bit of
> plane fusilage, or perhaps attacked and chopped to death by a gang of
> crazed knifemen, or blown up by a bunch of arabian terrorists, or set
> fire to a bunch of arsonists on a day out from the local prison, or
> killed in a sudden earthquake where large cracks appear inthe ground
> and you fall down one and don't stop falling until you reach the
> centre of the earth and can never be rescued, or you are hit by
> lightening, or you are pecked to death by a flock of killer pigeons on
> the loose, or you get carried off by a freak tornado which has
> appeared from nowhere and you are never seen again!!!!
>
> jesus christ almighty! get a bloody grip ladies, what could happen to
> your cat could happen to you and amusing though this yank paranoia is
> about all the death and destruction and danger there is in the world
> outside your front door it does get really very silly indeed and it is
> a real shame that you are trying to pass your own pathetic fears on to
> other people in other parts of the world who live in environments
> which are nothing like your own. Even more of a shame that your fears
> prevent your cats enjoying the great outdoors in the way they should,
> I really pity your cats, I really do
> bookie

Bookie,

Are you saying people in the US should let their cats out? That we don't
because of "yank paranoia?"

I thought we weren't supposed to comment on letting cats in or out
unless we live in the country in question.

Rhonda

Charlie Wilkes
June 21st 07, 07:23 AM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 17:33:05 -0700, bookie wrote:
>
> you have no idea what the situation is here in the UK do you? you really
> are not in a position to advise the OP whether she should allow her cats
> outside as you have no idea what it is like in this country at all do
> you? so don't comment, simple bookie

All I know is what I read in the news, sugar-pie.

Brits play football with live turkeys...
http://tinyurl.com/2le8aj

Brits torture a kitten...
http://tinyurl.com/2spq8h

Animal cruelty surges in East Anglia...
http://tinyurl.com/2p3h9z

Three strangled cats found in Leeds...
http://tinyurl.com/2qtb33

Norwich woman boils cat alive...
http://tinyurl.com/2o2au6

Drunken Brits kick puppy to death...
http://tinyurl.com/2kg4gg

You know what they say about denial, don't you? It's de longest river in
the world... and you are swimming in it.

Charlie

bookie
June 21st 07, 01:55 PM
On 21 Jun, 07:23, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 17:33:05 -0700, bookie wrote:
>
> > you have no idea what the situation is here in the UK do you? you really
> > are not in a position to advise the OP whether she should allow her cats
> > outside as you have no idea what it is like in this country at all do
> > you? so don't comment, simple bookie
>
> All I know is what I read in the news, sugar-pie.
>
> Brits play football with live turkeys...http://tinyurl.com/2le8aj
>
> Brits torture a kitten...http://tinyurl.com/2spq8h
>
> Animal cruelty surges in East Anglia...http://tinyurl.com/2p3h9z
>
> Three strangled cats found in Leeds...http://tinyurl.com/2qtb33
>
> Norwich woman boils cat alive...http://tinyurl.com/2o2au6
>
> Drunken Brits kick puppy to death...http://tinyurl.com/2kg4gg
>
> You know what they say about denial, don't you? It's de longest river in
> the world... and you are swimming in it.
>
> Charlie
i did not say it was non-existent, just not as prevalent as you like
to make out and no reason to keep your animals held captive inyour
homes when it is more natural for them to be allowed outside.

thankfully most 'brits' are not in a stranglehold of paranoia as you
yanks seem tobe about the dangers lurking touside their homes and so
happily allow their animals outside.

bookie
June 21st 07, 01:56 PM
On 21 Jun, 06:13, Rhonda > wrote:
> bookie wrote:
> > On 21 Jun, 01:37, "barb" > wrote:
>
> >>Ryan Robbins wrote:
>
> >>Yeah -- don't let them out. Cats don't enjoy being maimed or killed. Nor do
> >>the owners who supposedly love them.
>
> >>Either buy a harness and leash and walk with the cats, or build a solid
> >>outdoor enclosure for them.
>
> >>Right on, Ryan. That's about what I said about 100 posts ago!
>
> >>Barb
> >>Of course I don't look busy,
> >>I did it right the first time.
>
> > yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
> > may get hit by a car crossing the road or squashed by a falling bit of
> > plane fusilage, or perhaps attacked and chopped to death by a gang of
> > crazed knifemen, or blown up by a bunch of arabian terrorists, or set
> > fire to a bunch of arsonists on a day out from the local prison, or
> > killed in a sudden earthquake where large cracks appear inthe ground
> > and you fall down one and don't stop falling until you reach the
> > centre of the earth and can never be rescued, or you are hit by
> > lightening, or you are pecked to death by a flock of killer pigeons on
> > the loose, or you get carried off by a freak tornado which has
> > appeared from nowhere and you are never seen again!!!!
>
> > jesus christ almighty! get a bloody grip ladies, what could happen to
> > your cat could happen to you and amusing though this yank paranoia is
> > about all the death and destruction and danger there is in the world
> > outside your front door it does get really very silly indeed and it is
> > a real shame that you are trying to pass your own pathetic fears on to
> > other people in other parts of the world who live in environments
> > which are nothing like your own. Even more of a shame that your fears
> > prevent your cats enjoying the great outdoors in the way they should,
> > I really pity your cats, I really do
> > bookie
>
> Bookie,
>
> Are you saying people in the US should let their cats out? That we don't
> because of "yank paranoia?"
>
> I thought we weren't supposed to comment on letting cats in or out
> unless we live in the country in question.
>
> Rhonda- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

see charlie wilkes' post above and you will understand what i mean, if
that isn;t yank paranoia i don't know what is

barb
June 21st 07, 03:42 PM
From Bookie:

yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
may get hit by a car crossing the road or squashed by a falling bit of
plane fusilage, or perhaps attacked and chopped to death by a gang of
crazed knifemen, or blown up by a bunch of arabian terrorists, or set
fire to a bunch of arsonists on a day out from the local prison, or
killed in a sudden earthquake where large cracks appear inthe ground
and you fall down one and don't stop falling until you reach the
centre of the earth and can never be rescued, or you are hit by
lightening, or you are pecked to death by a flock of killer pigeons on
the loose, or you get carried off by a freak tornado which has
appeared from nowhere and you are never seen again!!!!

Not in my neighborhood- no terrorists, no earthquakes, no crazed knifemen,
arsonists- I do walk around with my eyes open and was not allowed to cross a
street by myself until I was 9 years old. (We do have cars, and who knows,
maybe some sickos, too.) You live in the UK? I was there for a week years
ago and from what I remember they did have traffic.

Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.

cybercat
June 21st 07, 06:40 PM
"barb" > wrote in message
...
> From Bookie:
>
> yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
> may get hit by a car crossing the road or squashed by a falling bit of
> plane fusilage, or perhaps attacked and chopped to death by a gang of
> crazed knifemen, or blown up by a bunch of arabian terrorists, or set
> fire to a bunch of arsonists on a day out from the local prison, or
> killed in a sudden earthquake where large cracks appear inthe ground
> and you fall down one and don't stop falling until you reach the
> centre of the earth and can never be rescued, or you are hit by
> lightening, or you are pecked to death by a flock of killer pigeons on
> the loose, or you get carried off by a freak tornado which has
> appeared from nowhere and you are never seen again!!!!
>
> Not in my neighborhood- no terrorists, no earthquakes, no crazed knifemen,
> arsonists- I do walk around with my eyes open and was not allowed to cross
> a
> street by myself until I was 9 years old. (We do have cars, and who
> knows,
> maybe some sickos, too.) You live in the UK? I was there for a week
> years
> ago and from what I remember they did have traffic.
>

I'm just wondering, do you think Bookie taught English before she was on the
dole?

lol

Lis
June 21st 07, 06:58 PM
On Jun 19, 7:07 pm, wrote:
> Lynne > wrote:
>
> > on Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:37:19 GMT, Patty > wrote:
>
> > > Oh, and we've never seen a case of
> > > the plague either.
>
> > The plague is no long contained in California, FYI.
>
> What do you mean? That the disease is in the population, uncontrolled?
> I haven't heard of this, and I live in California. What part of CA, by
> the way?
>
> JOyce

Plague is endemic in the rodent population in California and a good
part of the American west. Every year there are a few human cases; in
a really bad year, there are a dozen or so, and one or two deaths.
Cats that hunt rodents in the plague-endemic areas are at risk
themselves, and at risk for bringing it into human populations.

Bubonic plague is usually not a big deal if it's identified quickly,
because it responds well to a whole range of antibiotics. If one of
these little local outbreaks of bubonic plague converts to pneumonic
plague, though, we'll have a bigger prolem because it will spread much
faster.

Lis

MaryL
June 21st 07, 09:51 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "barb" > wrote in message
> ...
>> From Bookie:
>>
>> yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
>> may get hit by a car crossing the road or squashed by a falling bit of
>> plane fusilage, or perhaps attacked and chopped to death by a gang of
>> crazed knifemen, or blown up by a bunch of arabian terrorists, or set
>> fire to a bunch of arsonists on a day out from the local prison, or
>> killed in a sudden earthquake where large cracks appear inthe ground
>> and you fall down one and don't stop falling until you reach the
>> centre of the earth and can never be rescued, or you are hit by
>> lightening, or you are pecked to death by a flock of killer pigeons on
>> the loose, or you get carried off by a freak tornado which has
>> appeared from nowhere and you are never seen again!!!!
>>
>> Not in my neighborhood- no terrorists, no earthquakes, no crazed
>> knifemen,
>> arsonists- I do walk around with my eyes open and was not allowed to
>> cross a
>> street by myself until I was 9 years old. (We do have cars, and who
>> knows,
>> maybe some sickos, too.) You live in the UK? I was there for a week
>> years
>> ago and from what I remember they did have traffic.
>>
>
> I'm just wondering, do you think Bookie taught English before she was on
> the
> dole?
>
> lol
>

I have wondered just what it is that she "teaches."

MaryL

Charlie Wilkes
June 21st 07, 09:52 PM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 05:56:42 -0700, bookie wrote:

>
> see charlie wilkes' post above and you will understand what i mean, if
> that isn;t yank paranoia i don't know what is

Nonsense. "Paranoia" is a mental condition. But the post to which you
are referring consists of news items, i.e., factual reporting of real
events. I have a view of this subject that is based on information and
experience. You have a view that is based on wishful thinking and
willful blindness. How you take care of your own cats is your business,
but I will continue to object as long as you make a policy of advising
other cat owners that it's OK to let their beloved pets roam the
countryside.

Charlie

Lynne
June 21st 07, 11:19 PM
on Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:51:52 GMT, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-
LITTER> wrote:

> I have wondered just what it is that she "teaches."

All I can say is thank goodness she's no longer got access to the
impressionable minds of children. The woman appears to need medication.

--
Lynne

cybercat
June 22nd 07, 12:08 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> on Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:51:52 GMT, "MaryL"
> -OUT-THE-
> LITTER> wrote:
>
>> I have wondered just what it is that she "teaches."
>
> All I can say is thank goodness she's no longer got access to the
> impressionable minds of children. The woman appears to need medication.
>

I think she is just an icky, unpleasant, petty, nasty person. I wish that
were a sickness, then there would be a cure.

June 22nd 07, 12:57 AM
On Jun 21, 5:55 am, bookie > wrote:


> thankfully most 'brits' are not in a stranglehold of paranoia as you
> yanks seem tobe about the dangers lurking touside their homes and so
> happily allow their animals outside.

Seeing dead animals along the side of the road almost every day is not
paranoia. It is reality.

Many years ago, my own cat ran in front of the car while I was in it.
Can you imagine accidentally killing your own cat? That was his last
time out. And he lived a good long happy life.

If we are going to discuss natural vs safe; I would point out that
taking a cat to the vet is not natural for a cat. And that cat
certainly doesn't enjoy it, but I we do it anyway for their health.

As for comparing to children, most people do not let toddlers run
around the neighborhood withoutr supervision, and cats are similar in
cognitive ability. They do not understand roads, posions, nasty
neighbors, etc. Nor do they understand rules and boundaries. We cannot
compare free roaming cats with children who are old enough to play in
the yard and follow rules.

And those things wouldn't be natural to a cat either. Of course, pet
ownership wouldn't be either.

Charlie Wilkes
June 22nd 07, 01:03 AM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:08:23 -0400, cybercat wrote:

> "Lynne" > wrote in message
> . 97.142...
>> on Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:51:52 GMT, "MaryL"
>> -OUT-THE-
>> LITTER> wrote:
>>
>>> I have wondered just what it is that she "teaches."
>>
>> All I can say is thank goodness she's no longer got access to the
>> impressionable minds of children. The woman appears to need
>> medication.
>>
>>
> I think she is just an icky, unpleasant, petty, nasty person. I wish
> that were a sickness, then there would be a cure.

Bah! The world is a giant zoo and Usenet is the primate cage. Bookie is
no worse than the rest of us. But she has positioned herself on the
wrong end of this particular argument.

Charlie

Charlie

cybercat
June 22nd 07, 01:07 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:08:23 -0400, cybercat wrote:
>
>> "Lynne" > wrote in message
>> . 97.142...
>>> on Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:51:52 GMT, "MaryL"
>>> -OUT-THE-
>>> LITTER> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have wondered just what it is that she "teaches."
>>>
>>> All I can say is thank goodness she's no longer got access to the
>>> impressionable minds of children. The woman appears to need
>>> medication.
>>>
>>>
>> I think she is just an icky, unpleasant, petty, nasty person. I wish
>> that were a sickness, then there would be a cure.
>
> Bah! The world is a giant zoo and Usenet is the primate cage. Bookie is
> no worse than the rest of us.

Did I say she was any worse than the rest of us? Did I say that I am NOT
an icky, unpleasant, petty, nasty person? No I did not.

bookie
June 22nd 07, 02:48 AM
On 21 Jun, 23:19, Lynne > wrote:
> on Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:51:52 GMT, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-
>
> LITTER> wrote:
> > I have wondered just what it is that she "teaches."
>
> All I can say is thank goodness she's no longer got access to the
> impressionable minds of children. The woman appears to need medication.
>
> --
> Lynne

oooh! now we are getting all bitchy and catty (to coin a phrase) run
out of any reasonable arguments of being the dumb-arses you are, now
you are going for petty personal attacks, very intelligent ladies, you
just wow us all with your seering intellect and witty comments. You
really are a sad bunch of old hags aren't you?

now just **** off back to your trailers and your sad little lives,
somebody wake me up when they have all died from obesity-related
diseases

PawsForThought
June 22nd 07, 06:03 PM
On Jun 20, 8:41 pm, bookie > wrote:
> yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
> may get hit by a car crossing the road

People know the dangers of crossing a road, and thus are able to
travel across the road safely. Cats have no idea what the dangers of
the road mean. They can't read signs and they can't read traffic
lights, as far as I know. That's why it's our duty and obligation to
protect these animals we care for. You can't compare people to cats.

PawsForThought
June 22nd 07, 06:10 PM
On Jun 20, 2:05 pm, "Lilah Morgan" > wrote:
>
>and one morning last winter I went out to
> feed all the critters, and our goose couple was in a fenced pen, and the
> male was sitting in a corner, his neck column sticking out the fence
> skinned, and there was no head, and blood/feathers all over that corner. We
> have since put chicken wire all around the sides of that pen(the fencing
> wasn't chain link, it was square stuff, probably 2 or 3 inches on each side
> of the square, so something could grab his head, but nothing else.

That's awful :(

>We have deer occassionally too(last Feburary had like 8 deer in the yard, I got
> some pictures). It's my goal to make this kind of a wildlife sanctuary
> type(not an official/legal/business type one though), where animals come to
> be safe and enjoy some good food, and any time of the year you can look out
> the window and see nature's bounty.

That sounds really nice. We have deer here too and our cats love to
watch them from the window. They even chatter at them. I wonder if
they think they're big dogs.

cybercat
June 22nd 07, 06:11 PM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jun 20, 8:41 pm, bookie > wrote:
>> yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
>> may get hit by a car crossing the road
>
> People know the dangers of crossing a road, and thus are able to
> travel across the road safely. Cats have no idea what the dangers of
> the road mean. They can't read signs and they can't read traffic
> lights, as far as I know. That's why it's our duty and obligation to
> protect these animals we care for. You can't compare people to cats.
>

You can if you're a blowhard idiot.

cybercat
June 22nd 07, 10:26 PM
"barb" > wrote in message
...
> Funny- I assumed Bookie was a male. No?
>
No.

barb
June 22nd 07, 10:57 PM
Funny- I assumed Bookie was a male. No?

--
Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.

Lynne
June 22nd 07, 11:44 PM
on Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:11:17 GMT, "cybercat" > wrote:

> You can if you're a blowhard idiot.

*snort*

--
Lynne

bookie
June 23rd 07, 01:09 AM
On 22 Jun, 18:03, PawsForThought > wrote:
> On Jun 20, 8:41 pm, bookie > wrote:
>
> > yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
> > may get hit by a car crossing the road
>
> People know the dangers of crossing a road, and thus are able to
> travel across the road safely. Cats have no idea what the dangers of
> the road mean. They can't read signs and they can't read traffic
> lights, as far as I know. That's why it's our duty and obligation to
> protect these animals we care for. You can't compare people to cats.

thats why if I lived on or very close to a busy road i would not have
a cat, or I would try to restrict it to the back garden with decent
fencing.

do you know what a cul-de-sac is? that is the kind of road i live in,
strict speed limits, no through traffic, kids playing inthe street
outside because there are no cars driving through (well they would
have a hard time if they tried, nowhere to go really).
as I said before there are many houses in this street which have cats,
more than one, all of them are allowed out, most of them spend their
evenings trotting about between people's gardens, front and back,
apart from the white and tabby monster from 3 doors up who only goes
as far as my door cos he knows I will give him extra food in the
evening (the girls' leftovers really, supposed to be for the
hedgehogs).

like I have said many times before you cannot judge about an area
someone lives in and whether ti is safe for their cats to go outside
unless you have been there. In fact that we have lots fo hedgehogs
hanging about in gardens alive and not squashed on the street might
even give you a clue as to the level of traffic in my area.
also my cats are not allowed out at night unless accompanied, and of
course they sleep indoors, where else woudl they stay?

I am reminded of a saying which I think is this
"it is better to live 1 day as a lion than a thousand years as a lamb"
or something like that
jeez

Rhonda
June 23rd 07, 01:50 AM
bookie wrote:

> like I have said many times before you cannot judge about an area
> someone lives in and whether ti is safe for their cats to go outside
> unless you have been there.

Bookie,

That is the point I was trying to make. Why do you judge those of us in
the US who leave our cats indoors?

Rhonda

sheelagh
June 23rd 07, 02:03 AM
On 23 Jun, 01:09, bookie > wrote:
> On 22 Jun, 18:03, PawsForThought > wrote:
>
> > On Jun 20, 8:41 pm, bookie > wrote:
>
> > > yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
> > > may get hit by a car crossing the road
>
> > People know the dangers of crossing a road, and thus are able to
> > travel across the road safely. Cats have no idea what the dangers of
> > the road mean. They can't read signs and they can't read traffic
> > lights, as far as I know. That's why it's our duty and obligation to
> > protect these animals we care for. You can't compare people to cats.
>
> thats why if I lived on or very close to a busy road i would not have
> a cat, or I would try to restrict it to the back garden with decent
> fencing.
>
> do you know what a cul-de-sac is? that is the kind of road i live in,
> strict speed limits, no through traffic, kids playing in the street
> outside because there are no cars driving through (well they would
> have a hard time if they tried, nowhere to go really).
> as I said before there are many houses in this street which have cats,
> more than one, all of them are allowed out, most of them spend their
> evenings trotting about between people's gardens, front and back,
> apart from the white and tabby monster from 3 doors up who only goes
> as far as my door cos he knows I will give him extra food in the
> evening (the girls' leftovers really, supposed to be for the
> hedgehogs).
>
> like I have said many times before you cannot judge about an area
> someone lives in and whether ti is safe for their cats to go outside
> unless you have been there. In fact that we have lots fo hedgehogs
> hanging about in gardens alive and not squashed on the street might
> even give you a clue as to the level of traffic in my area.
> also my cats are not allowed out at night unless accompanied, and of
> course they sleep indoors, where else woudl they stay?
>
> I am reminded of a saying which I think is this
> "it is better to live 1 day as a lion than a thousand years as a lamb"
> or something like that
> jeez


> do you know what a cul-de-sac is?

A cul de sac is a very short dead end road. The only thing in that
short road are the residences of the people, who's children are
playing football, skipping, Tag, run & hide, down that road in the
middle of that street. In 99.999% of the time, the only people who
drive down that road, actually live there & have chosen to reside
there because it is safe for their kids to play in the middle of that
road - or people who are visiting the people who reside there. The
chances of a cat being run over down one of these roads, is around the
same as you running down your own cat, because no one else drives down
them.

I think the point that Bookie is trying to make here, is that she
truly believes that she is doing what she feel is right by her cat, &
the chances of her cat's being hurt, run over, or savaged by our wild
life, are next to nothing. as she points out, they are only allowed
out whilst she is there. She does have parameters in her garden, & if
she walks down her own road, her cats only ever go as far as the road
because she is with them @ the time....

I have no wish to be drawn into the do you allow your cat out, or keep
them indoor, debate, because I believe that this a very personal
choice. If that was all I had to worry about when I let my cats out,
then I would allow mine to roam as they wished to....

(However, if you would like to refer to my posting in Ping Sheelagh,
where Marii B has been kind enough to show me what local wild life is
truely like for the vast majority of you it would seem, then you will
also see that I can totally understand why you all feel so
passionately about keeping your cats as indoor cats. I really had no
idea how different our wild life truely is...!!)
In the UK, the domestic cat is still on the wild life list, believe it
or not!
But, then again, I had no idea what a Bob Cat was, or an opposum
looked like, or a tarantula spider either, ....or that they are
considered as normal in your back gardens. Rabies another issue
altogether too....

Unfortunately, as a lot of you know, The biggest worry that I /we
face/ have in the UK, is not people running over my cat, or even the
local wild life savaging them or being bitten by a Rabid
creature..rather it is human beings that have wrecked my faith in
allowing my cats to roam as they used to.....

I have nearly lost 2 cats in the last 12 months to mindless idiotic
children/ young adults, who did know better, but still chose to shoot
my beloved Ringo, & one of the kittens that we homed with another
family too. Simply Target practise to them, but a huge loss to us all
here...

In view of this, I choose to keep my cats indoors most of the time. I
still feel guilty however, for taking their liberty away from them
through no fault of their own. So, I choose to allow them out into a
cat run during the day if they are asking to go out, & when I have the
time, I also take most of them out to meadow that is behind our home,
but now, I put them on a pair of reins and take them out in pairs,
into the very same field where Ringo was shot a few months ago @ near
point blank range.

I still feel so angry about this incident, but I refuse to be bullied
into keeping them as **indoor only** cats, because, I am taking away
the liberty that they already had. nonetheless, I do feel that I can
no longer allow them out without me being with them to protect them
against the worst predator of all, which of course are Human Beings.
Human beings can be far more ruthless than any other mammals that "I"
have encountered in this country, to date.

It is the best compromise that I can come to with my cats and my
conscience too.
S.

sheelagh
June 23rd 07, 04:44 AM
On 23 Jun, 00:09, Igenlode <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-
]> wrote:
> On 21 Jun 2007 barb wrote:
> [snip]> You live in the UK? I was there for a week years ago and from what I
> > remember they did have traffic.
>
> In my experience almost all cats in this country (the UK) are allowed
> outside -- indeed, until very recent times it was a part of normal
> household routine to "put the cat out" last thing at night, to prevent
> it from sleeping indoors. Walk down the average suburban road, and
> you're likely to find half a dozen cats sunning themselves as you pass.
>
> And yes, you do see "Lost cat" notices on lamp-posts; that's considered
> normal, too. Some of them get run over, although I don't know how the
> statistics compare to human casualties. The chief national source of
> concern appears to be that the cats get into other people's gardens and
> make a mess in the flower-beds.
>
> Keeping a cat permanently indoors is an unusual thing to do, although I
> can see that it would be physically possible, which it isn't with dogs.
> (Do many high-rise blocks even allow pets?)
> --
> Igenlode Visit the Ivory Tower http://ivory.150m.com/Tower/
>
> * Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *




*I like the Quote. It's sooo True!! >"o"<

* Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *

I hate this back and forth arguing. The bottom line is that we all
come from different places where circumstances are different, & so are
our cultures...
& most of us are ignorant to the others beliefs, customs and reasons
for the way we/ they do things.....

I can totally understand why most people in the USA choose to keep
their pets indoors. If I thought for one moment that a Rabid Bob cat
might attack my child or my cats, I would probably never allow either
of them outside as well.

But, the difference is that we don't have Rabies, or Bob Cats, or even
Skunks, or opossums, or any other of things that I have learned about
this evening...

Most people *do ask me why I don't allow my cat's to go out*, as, &
when they please....( as you say, it is normal here in the UK)
I have simply got the stage where it is easier to explain that, should
I allow them to roam free, that some of them are pedigree cats, & it
is highly likely that someone might steal them!! Which is
true..But....

It is so much easier than telling them the real truth, which is that
my main fear is exactly that.. & also the fact that they are far more
likely to have yet another BB gun pointed @ them, & that humans are
far more likely to hurt or maim them, than any other threat out there.
It is a sad fact but also the truth.....

I honestly do feel that it is up to the slave concerned, to do the
right thing by their cat. We all live in different places, where the
threats to our cats are different.

I wouldn't dream of calling anyone names, or even shaking my head @
their stupidity, simply because I don't understand the threat posed to
their cats.
They know their cats, & they also know the threats that their cats
face too, so I would be wrong to call them an idiot because they don't
do things my way, or the way that I perceive to be right IMHO.....

Some might, ( & HAVE!!) said, "don't come crawling to me if your
cat"....
I'm certain that 99.999% of us do already take the best precautions
that we possibly can, to ensure that we never put our cats in that
position. I don't fear traffic, wildlife, or even dogs, but I do fear
other human beings...

I choose to allow my cats a bit of freedom, but only under my
supervision. I feel terribly guilty for taking away their liberty,
because some damned Idiot shot one of them. that is not their fault..
it was mine for being so trusting... therefore, I have decided that it
is up to me to make sure they do get @ least as bit of their freedom
back, a bit of real fresh air & natural stimulation, as well as the
cat pen if they simply want a bit of fresh air & bird watching....the
rest of it has to be on a pair of reins in pairs to the meadow where I
can see them & any threat they might face too

I know it is no where near the same liberty they used to have, but
that is the only way that I feel is safe enough for them...
I am sick and tired of people giving me strange looks when I try &
explain that I don't trust other people... but why do I feel that I
have to lie about it?
S;o)

Lilah Morgan
June 23rd 07, 05:45 AM
"sheelagh" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> I know it is no where near the same liberty they used to have, but
> that is the only way that I feel is safe enough for them...
> I am sick and tired of people giving me strange looks when I try &
> explain that I don't trust other people...

After his accident, I wouldn't let Joxer out for a few months. He didn't
like it, and was happy to be let out again. But given that he's a black cat,
around Halloween I really wouldn't let him out period, because I know there
are sickos who would think a black cat is just what they need to do horrible
stuff to on that day. Now he doesn't even really want to go out. I've always
let him out in our yard, but he doesn't like this one I guess. He has a
game...meow at the door to act like he wants out, then run away as soon as I
open the door. Mishka and Dosie(our other 2 dogs) only go out on the leash
in the yard(we have the chickens/bunnies/geese roaming free in the yard
during the day), because they haven't gotten it through their heads that our
'livestock' are not toys for them. Shadowbear knows, of course she still
wants to, but anytime I see her eyeing one of them I say No! and she comes
back to me(I usually have her out with me when I'm doing chores so I can
keep an eye on her, plus I'm the only one here at our cul-de-sac right now,
so I feel safe having her out there with me). So Shadowbear is allowed to
roam the yard untethered. We have 1.2acres, so when I take Mishka/Dosie out,
I usually take them around the whole perimeter so they get exercise. Plus I
feel that them doing their business around the perimeter is a good deterrent
to wild animals coming in, since they'll smell the deposits and think Hey
there's a lot of dogs here, maybe we should go somewhere else! But yeah, I
don't trust people around here either. Especially if Shadowbear(our fence
jumper) decides to roam the neighborhood when I get distracted with
yardwork...she is a very friendly dog, but others might not know that. They
just see a strange dog in their yard. And quite a few people in this area(it
being rural with wild animals) have (shot)guns, and I have heard there's at
least one crazy in our neighborhood, and if anything happened to
Shadowbear...it's bad enough she nearly lost an eye once. We were driving
home late at night last July, and all of a sudden we see this HUGE black cow
in the road(it took up the whole road, was across both lanes), and it's too
late to avoid it, and the car gets totaled. We had all of the dogs with us,
Mishka was in my lap, and when I saw the cow, I knew we were gonna hit it,
and I'm thinking the windshield's gonna break and glass is gonna come flying
towards my face, so I put my head down and cover it with my hands and lift
my legs up as much as I can to form a kinda ball, so she was totally
protected. Shadowbear/Dosie were in the backseat though, and the back
passenger window, the cow busted that as well, and Shadowbear got hit by
some flying glass, and it BARELY missed her eyeball. It(the cut) started
like right under her eye, maybe only a millimeter or two from getting her
eye. She must have closed her eyes, which is the only thing that probably
saved that eye. She also got another cut/gash on her rump, but not serious.
Dosie had no physical injuries, but ever since then, she's been very
skittish about sounds, and at first she would start shaking horribly anytime
mom started the car, even if Dosie was in the house. Haven taken her on car
rides since then, but she's still iffy. The first time we were in a new car
after the accident, she was fine until we drove past where they were fixing
the culverts in the roads, and there was a slight bump at one point, and
when we did the bump, Dosie freaked and jumped into my lap and wouldn't
leave(right after the accident she did the same). Shadowbear had some mental
trauma as well(she first got really aggressive, then really passive, now
she's back to normal). Mishka being totally protected by me really had no
clue, so she was perfectly fine. She(Mishka) and mom were the best off from
the accident, since my back's been funky ever since. Had my back checked out
but nothing seemed wrong, even though I know there is something wrong. Wow
that was a long(for me) post....I need a drink(mocha frappucino is my drink
of choice)

bookie
June 24th 07, 01:13 AM
On 23 Jun, 02:03, sheelagh > wrote:
> On 23 Jun, 01:09, bookie > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 22 Jun, 18:03, PawsForThought > wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 20, 8:41 pm, bookie > wrote:
>
> > > > yeah and stay indoors yourselves too cos you never know whether you
> > > > may get hit by a car crossing the road
>
> > > People know the dangers of crossing a road, and thus are able to
> > > travel across the road safely. Cats have no idea what the dangers of
> > > the road mean. They can't read signs and they can't read traffic
> > > lights, as far as I know. That's why it's our duty and obligation to
> > > protect these animals we care for. You can't compare people to cats.
>
> > thats why if I lived on or very close to a busy road i would not have
> > a cat, or I would try to restrict it to the back garden with decent
> > fencing.
>
> > do you know what a cul-de-sac is? that is the kind of road i live in,
> > strict speed limits, no through traffic, kids playing in the street
> > outside because there are no cars driving through (well they would
> > have a hard time if they tried, nowhere to go really).
> > as I said before there are many houses in this street which have cats,
> > more than one, all of them are allowed out, most of them spend their
> > evenings trotting about between people's gardens, front and back,
> > apart from the white and tabby monster from 3 doors up who only goes
> > as far as my door cos he knows I will give him extra food in the
> > evening (the girls' leftovers really, supposed to be for the
> > hedgehogs).
>
> > like I have said many times before you cannot judge about an area
> > someone lives in and whether ti is safe for their cats to go outside
> > unless you have been there. In fact that we have lots fo hedgehogs
> > hanging about in gardens alive and not squashed on the street might
> > even give you a clue as to the level of traffic in my area.
> > also my cats are not allowed out at night unless accompanied, and of
> > course they sleep indoors, where else woudl they stay?
>
> > I am reminded of a saying which I think is this
> > "it is better to live 1 day as a lion than a thousand years as a lamb"
> > or something like that
> > jeez
> > do you know what a cul-de-sac is?
>
> A cul de sac is a very short dead end road. The only thing in that
> short road are the residences of the people, who's children are
> playing football, skipping, Tag, run & hide, down that road in the
> middle of that street. In 99.999% of the time, the only people who
> drive down that road, actually live there & have chosen to reside
> there because it is safe for their kids to play in the middle of that
> road - or people who are visiting the people who reside there. The
> chances of a cat being run over down one of these roads, is around the
> same as you running down your own cat, because no one else drives down
> them.
>
> I think the point that Bookie is trying to make here, is that she
> truly believes that she is doing what she feel is right by her cat, &
> the chances of her cat's being hurt, run over, or savaged by our wild
> life, are next to nothing. as she points out, they are only allowed
> out whilst she is there. She does have parameters in her garden, & if
> she walks down her own road, her cats only ever go as far as the road
> because she is with them @ the time....
>
> I have no wish to be drawn into the do you allow your cat out, or keep
> them indoor, debate, because I believe that this a very personal
> choice. If that was all I had to worry about when I let my cats out,
> then I would allow mine to roam as they wished to....
>
> (However, if you would like to refer to my posting in Ping Sheelagh,
> where Marii B has been kind enough to show me what local wild life is
> truely like for the vast majority of you it would seem, then you will
> also see that I can totally understand why you all feel so
> passionately about keeping your cats as indoor cats. I really had no
> idea how different our wild life truely is...!!)
> In the UK, the domestic cat is still on the wild life list, believe it
> or not!
> But, then again, I had no idea what a Bob Cat was, or an opposum
> looked like, or a tarantula spider either, ....or that they are
> considered as normal in your back gardens. Rabies another issue
> altogether too....
>
> Unfortunately, as a lot of you know, The biggest worry that I /we
> face/ have in the UK, is not people running over my cat, or even the
> local wild life savaging them or being bitten by a Rabid
> creature..rather it is human beings that have wrecked my faith in
> allowing my cats to roam as they used to.....
>
> I have nearly lost 2 cats in the last 12 months to mindless idiotic
> children/ young adults, who did know better, but still chose to shoot
> my beloved Ringo, & one of the kittens that we homed with another
> family too. Simply Target practise to them, but a huge loss to us all
> here...
>
> In view of this, I choose to keep my cats indoors most of the time. I
> still feel guilty however, for taking their liberty away from them
> through no fault of their own. So, I choose to allow them out into a
> cat run during the day if they are asking to go out, & when I have the
> time, I also take most of them out to meadow that is behind our home,
> but now, I put them on a pair of reins and take them out in pairs,
> into the very same field where Ringo was shot a few months ago @ near
> point blank range.
>
> I still feel so angry about this incident, but I refuse to be bullied
> into keeping them as **indoor only** cats, because, I am taking away
> the liberty that they already had. nonetheless, I do feel that I can
> no longer allow them out without me being with them to protect them
> against the worst predator of all, which of course are Human Beings.
> Human beings can be far more ruthless than any other mammals that "I"
> have encountered in this country, to date.
>
> It is the best compromise that I can come to with my cats and my
> conscience too.
> S.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree that in the UK the biggest danger to domestic cats is really
humans acting like mindless pricks and not really other 'wild'
animals, but again I don't really live in the middle of a some urban
ghetto so that kind of behaviour is unheard of where I live. Kids
round here are too lazy to get up off their backsides and away front
their tv screens and computer games to bother inflicting violent
assault on someone else's animals, that would involve effort on their
part, too much like hard work.

maybe if i lived in some of the places where I teach it might be a
different story though, but i don't so it's not, simple as.

bookie
June 24th 07, 01:21 AM
On 23 Jun, 01:50, Rhonda > wrote:
> bookie wrote:
> > like I have said many times before you cannot judge about an area
> > someone lives in and whether ti is safe for their cats to go outside
> > unless you have been there.
>
> Bookie,
>
> That is the point I was trying to make. Why do you judge those of us in
> the US who leave our cats indoors?
>
> Rhonda

and why are you all advising someone who lives in the middle of
nowhere in 'bonnie scotland' to keep their cats in when most of you
have no clue what scotlandshire is liek in terms of remoteness
wildlife etc. I would keep my cats in doors in scotland if i lived
somewhere like motherwell or some other dodgy part of glasgow where
they may be stolen and possibly sold on in a backstreet pub as 'mini
tiger' to some gullible idiot in order to buy more drugs or meths but
not if I lived inthe country up there.
seriously, there are some really remote parts of scotland where sod
all happens and roads are single track and rarely see a car, the
possibility of anything happening to anyone, man or beast, up there is
seriously slim.

the UK is not like the US of A (thank god) and this may blow your
minds but there are some villages in Wales which dont' have mains
electricity still, and they like it that way. some of these places are
very remote, as is the chance of something untoward happening your
pets there too, apart from getting gang-raped by a posse of outlaw
hedgehogs possibly, but that's about it in the British Isles

bookie
June 24th 07, 01:27 AM
On 23 Jun, 04:44, sheelagh > wrote:
> On 23 Jun, 00:09, Igenlode <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-
>
>
>
>
>
> ]> wrote:
> > On 21 Jun 2007 barb wrote:
> > [snip]> You live in the UK? I was there for a week years ago and from what I
> > > remember they did have traffic.
>
> > In my experience almost all cats in this country (the UK) are allowed
> > outside -- indeed, until very recent times it was a part of normal
> > household routine to "put the cat out" last thing at night, to prevent
> > it from sleeping indoors. Walk down the average suburban road, and
> > you're likely to find half a dozen cats sunning themselves as you pass.
>
> > And yes, you do see "Lost cat" notices on lamp-posts; that's considered
> > normal, too. Some of them get run over, although I don't know how the
> > statistics compare to human casualties. The chief national source of
> > concern appears to be that the cats get into other people's gardens and
> > make a mess in the flower-beds.
>
> > Keeping a cat permanently indoors is an unusual thing to do, although I
> > can see that it would be physically possible, which it isn't with dogs.
> > (Do many high-rise blocks even allow pets?)
> > --
> > Igenlode Visit the Ivory Tower http://ivory.150m.com/Tower/
>
> > * Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *
>
> *I like the Quote. It's sooo True!! >"o"<
>
> * Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *
>
> I hate this back and forth arguing. The bottom line is that we all
> come from different places where circumstances are different, & so are
> our cultures...
> & most of us are ignorant to the others beliefs, customs and reasons
> for the way we/ they do things.....
>
> I can totally understand why most people in the USA choose to keep
> their pets indoors. If I thought for one moment that a Rabid Bob cat
> might attack my child or my cats, I would probably never allow either
> of them outside as well.
>
> But, the difference is that we don't have Rabies, or Bob Cats, or even
> Skunks, or opossums, or any other of things that I have learned about
> this evening...
>
> Most people *do ask me why I don't allow my cat's to go out*, as, &
> when they please....( as you say, it is normal here in the UK)
> I have simply got the stage where it is easier to explain that, should
> I allow them to roam free, that some of them are pedigree cats, & it
> is highly likely that someone might steal them!! Which is
> true..But....
>
> It is so much easier than telling them the real truth, which is that
> my main fear is exactly that.. & also the fact that they are far more
> likely to have yet another BB gun pointed @ them, & that humans are
> far more likely to hurt or maim them, than any other threat out there.
> It is a sad fact but also the truth.....
>
> I honestly do feel that it is up to the slave concerned, to do the
> right thing by their cat. We all live in different places, where the
> threats to our cats are different.
>
> I wouldn't dream of calling anyone names, or even shaking my head @
> their stupidity, simply because I don't understand the threat posed to
> their cats.
> They know their cats, & they also know the threats that their cats
> face too, so I would be wrong to call them an idiot because they don't
> do things my way, or the way that I perceive to be right IMHO.....
>
> Some might, ( & HAVE!!) said, "don't come crawling to me if your
> cat"....
> I'm certain that 99.999% of us do already take the best precautions
> that we possibly can, to ensure that we never put our cats in that
> position. I don't fear traffic, wildlife, or even dogs, but I do fear
> other human beings...
>
> I choose to allow my cats a bit of freedom, but only under my
> supervision. I feel terribly guilty for taking away their liberty,
> because some damned Idiot shot one of them. that is not their fault..
> it was mine for being so trusting... therefore, I have decided that it
> is up to me to make sure they do get @ least as bit of their freedom
> back, a bit of real fresh air & natural stimulation, as well as the
> cat pen if they simply want a bit of fresh air & bird watching....the
> rest of it has to be on a pair of reins in pairs to the meadow where I
> can see them & any threat they might face too
>
> I know it is no where near the same liberty they used to have, but
> that is the only way that I feel is safe enough for them...
> I am sick and tired of people giving me strange looks when I try &
> explain that I don't trust other people... but why do I feel that I
> have to lie about it?
> S;o)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

believe me, if inthe unlikely event that either of my furry
mistresses was run over (which would involve them getting up off the
sofa/bed/windowsill and being active for a change) i woudl not go
crawling to anyone for sympathy. it would be a great loss to me and
yes I would spend days crying my eyes out but It would not make me
keep any future cats under lock and key. all cats are different

Barry
June 24th 07, 01:31 AM
On Jun 23, 8:21 pm, bookie > wrote:
> apart from getting gang-raped by a posse of outlaw
> hedgehogs possibly, but that's about it in the British Isles

and you say I don't make much sense

looka here

you live in the boonies! you're country and don't even know it

haha

bookie
June 24th 07, 01:40 AM
On 24 Jun, 01:31, Barry > wrote:
> On Jun 23, 8:21 pm, bookie > wrote:
>
> > apart from getting gang-raped by a posse of outlaw
> > hedgehogs possibly, but that's about it in the British Isles
>
> and you say I don't make much sense
>
> looka here
>
> you live in the boonies! you're country and don't even know it
>
> haha

you are aware what a hedgehog is aren't you?

Barry
June 24th 07, 01:56 AM
On Jun 23, 8:40 pm, bookie > wrote:

> you are aware what a hedgehog is aren't you?

they act like hogs in the hedges?

June 24th 07, 08:25 AM
On Jun 20, 9:47 am, bookie > wrote:

>
> i think if i had an apartment I would really think twice about having
> a cat, maybe a really REALLY old cat, one that was FIV or something
> who could not go out at all, and only then if I had a huge flat for
> said puss to run aronud in and I woudl have to invest in lots of cat
> gyms and climbign frame for them. i certainly would not get a kitten
> or young cat in a flat, not really fair on them, they would go stir
> crazy.
>

This is why a lot of people find your posts to be rather judgemental
on the topic. You are assuming than an indoor cat cannot be happy.
Since many of us do have have indoor cats, we can assure you (not that
you would believe us) that our cats are very happy.

We have 5 cat trees in our house, and our cats have plenty of toys and
things to do.

When I got Jay Jay, he was an outdoor cat. He cried and pawed at every
door and window for a week. It was pitiful. He was very unhappy. But
you know what? After a week, he stopped. I have had 2 1/2 years now,
and he has never attempted to get outside since that first work. He
figured out pretty quickly that life inside is pretty nice. All you
can end food. Endless supply of clean water. Lots of comfy perches.
Lots of toys. Lots of massages. No fighting. No dangerous dogs or
wildlife. He is much happier living the good life.

You make it sound like indoor cats are being abused, and that simply
isn't true. Most of them have no idea what is outside. My Kira would
actually panic if she saw me outside in the yard through the door or
window. She was used to me going out the front door, but did not find
it acceptable that I should be outside. She would cry and pace until I
came back in. The outside was a big bad place, in her opinion. I could
leave the front door open, and she has no interest in it.

At our house (with 2 dogs and 3 cats), only one dog shows any interest
in the door. My dog is a formerly outside dog, and she hates to go
outside.

Charlie Wilkes
June 24th 07, 10:10 PM
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:13:22 -0700, bookie wrote:

> Kids round here are
> too lazy to get up off their backsides and away front their tv screens
> and computer games to bother inflicting violent assault on someone
> else's animals, that would involve effort on their part, too much like
> hard work.

That's gotta be the least convincing argument I've ever seen on Usenet.

Charlie

bookie
June 25th 07, 01:46 AM
On 24 Jun, 08:25, "
> wrote:
> On Jun 20, 9:47 am, bookie > wrote:
>
>
>
> > i think if i had an apartment I would really think twice about having
> > a cat, maybe a really REALLY old cat, one that was FIV or something
> > who could not go out at all, and only then if I had a huge flat for
> > said puss to run aronud in and I woudl have to invest in lots of cat
> > gyms and climbign frame for them. i certainly would not get a kitten
> > or young cat in a flat, not really fair on them, they would go stir
> > crazy.
>
> This is why a lot of people find your posts to be rather judgemental
> on the topic. You are assuming than an indoor cat cannot be happy.
> Since many of us do have have indoor cats, we can assure you (not that
> you would believe us) that our cats are very happy.
>
> We have 5 cat trees in our house, and our cats have plenty of toys and
> things to do.
>
> When I got Jay Jay, he was an outdoor cat. He cried and pawed at every
> door and window for a week. It was pitiful. He was very unhappy. But
> you know what? After a week, he stopped. I have had 2 1/2 years now,
> and he has never attempted to get outside since that first work. He
> figured out pretty quickly that life inside is pretty nice. All you
> can end food. Endless supply of clean water. Lots of comfy perches.
> Lots of toys. Lots of massages. No fighting. No dangerous dogs or
> wildlife. He is much happier living the good life.
>
> You make it sound like indoor cats are being abused, and that simply
> isn't true. Most of them have no idea what is outside. My Kira would
> actually panic if she saw me outside in the yard through the door or
> window. She was used to me going out the front door, but did not find
> it acceptable that I should be outside. She would cry and pace until I
> came back in. The outside was a big bad place, in her opinion. I could
> leave the front door open, and she has no interest in it.
>
> At our house (with 2 dogs and 3 cats), only one dog shows any interest
> in the door. My dog is a formerly outside dog, and she hates to go
> outside.

different strokes for different folks, and we have an animal welfare
bill here now which could be interpreted to mean that keeping a cat
indoors is breaking the law depnding on your interpretation of it

bookie
June 25th 07, 01:46 AM
On 24 Jun, 22:10, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:13:22 -0700, bookie wrote:
> > Kids round here are
> > too lazy to get up off their backsides and away front their tv screens
> > and computer games to bother inflicting violent assault on someone
> > else's animals, that would involve effort on their part, too much like
> > hard work.
>
> That's gotta be the least convincing argument I've ever seen on Usenet.
>
> Charlie

you haven't met many british kids then

bookie
June 25th 07, 01:52 AM
On 24 Jun, 01:56, Barry > wrote:
> On Jun 23, 8:40 pm, bookie > wrote:
>
> > you are aware what a hedgehog is aren't you?
>
> they act like hogs in the hedges?

er no, small mammals covered in spines, ever read beatrix potter's
books such as The Tale of Mrs Tiggywinkle? she was hedgehog, i can't
remember the story though, I much preferred reading the tale of the
Flopsy Bunnies and also the Tale of Jemima Puddleduck.

they do live in hedges and undergrowth inthe british countryside and
just about everywhere really, totally harmless unless maybe you try to
pick one up, then you might get a spine inyour hand, but they are much
more scared of us than anything. Very cute animals, i always put the
dregs of the girls food out on the front lawn for any hedgehogs to eat
at night, they normally eat worms and insects but will also eat
catfood too.

i am sure though that someone on this group will try to tell me that I
shouldn't let my cats out in case they get attacked by a giant mutant
cat-eating hedgehog now and that by leavign food out for this spiky
monsters I am just encouraging them to come ronud and savage my cats.
believe me, neither creature is a threat to the other.

MaryL
June 25th 07, 01:59 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 24 Jun, 01:56, Barry > wrote:
>> On Jun 23, 8:40 pm, bookie > wrote:
>>
>> > you are aware what a hedgehog is aren't you?
>>
>> they act like hogs in the hedges?
>
> er no, small mammals covered in spines, ever read beatrix potter's
> books such as The Tale of Mrs Tiggywinkle? she was hedgehog, i can't
> remember the story though, I much preferred reading the tale of the
> Flopsy Bunnies and also the Tale of Jemima Puddleduck.
>
> they do live in hedges and undergrowth inthe british countryside and
> just about everywhere really, totally harmless unless maybe you try to
> pick one up, then you might get a spine inyour hand, but they are much
> more scared of us than anything. Very cute animals, i always put the
> dregs of the girls food out on the front lawn for any hedgehogs to eat
> at night, they normally eat worms and insects but will also eat
> catfood too.
>
> i am sure though that someone on this group will try to tell me that I
> shouldn't let my cats out in case they get attacked by a giant mutant
> cat-eating hedgehog now and that by leavign food out for this spiky
> monsters I am just encouraging them to come ronud and savage my cats.
> believe me, neither creature is a threat to the other.
>

I'm sure he said that tongue-in-cheek. Most of us do know what hedgehogs
are. I held a baby hedgehog once, and I was amazed at how soft they are.
Of course, I would't want to do that to a mature hedgehog, but I also would
not be frightened. They look somewhat like our porcupines, but they are not
actually related. Porcupines are nocturnal, just like hedgehogs.

MaryL

Charlie Wilkes
June 25th 07, 05:20 AM
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:52:34 -0700, bookie wrote:

> On 24 Jun, 01:56, Barry > wrote:
>> On Jun 23, 8:40 pm, bookie > wrote:
>>
>> > you are aware what a hedgehog is aren't you?
>>
>> they act like hogs in the hedges?
>
> er no, small mammals covered in spines, ever read beatrix potter's books
> such as The Tale of Mrs Tiggywinkle? she was hedgehog, i can't remember
> the story though, I much preferred reading the tale of the Flopsy
> Bunnies and also the Tale of Jemima Puddleduck.

Philip Larkin wrote a poem about killing a hedgehog with his lawnmower.

http://www.wussu.com/poems/pltm.htm
>
> they do live in hedges and undergrowth inthe british countryside and
> just about everywhere really, totally harmless unless maybe you try to
> pick one up, then you might get a spine inyour hand,

Indeed. Hedgehogs are hazardous when misused...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/15/serbian_witchdoctor/

Charlie

dgk
June 25th 07, 01:48 PM
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:46:11 -0700, bookie >
wrote:

>On 24 Jun, 08:25, "
> wrote:
>> On Jun 20, 9:47 am, bookie > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > i think if i had an apartment I would really think twice about having
>> > a cat, maybe a really REALLY old cat, one that was FIV or something
>> > who could not go out at all, and only then if I had a huge flat for
>> > said puss to run aronud in and I woudl have to invest in lots of cat
>> > gyms and climbign frame for them. i certainly would not get a kitten
>> > or young cat in a flat, not really fair on them, they would go stir
>> > crazy.
>>
>> This is why a lot of people find your posts to be rather judgemental
>> on the topic. You are assuming than an indoor cat cannot be happy.
>> Since many of us do have have indoor cats, we can assure you (not that
>> you would believe us) that our cats are very happy.
>>
>> We have 5 cat trees in our house, and our cats have plenty of toys and
>> things to do.
>>
>> When I got Jay Jay, he was an outdoor cat. He cried and pawed at every
>> door and window for a week. It was pitiful. He was very unhappy. But
>> you know what? After a week, he stopped. I have had 2 1/2 years now,
>> and he has never attempted to get outside since that first work. He
>> figured out pretty quickly that life inside is pretty nice. All you
>> can end food. Endless supply of clean water. Lots of comfy perches.
>> Lots of toys. Lots of massages. No fighting. No dangerous dogs or
>> wildlife. He is much happier living the good life.
>>
>> You make it sound like indoor cats are being abused, and that simply
>> isn't true. Most of them have no idea what is outside. My Kira would
>> actually panic if she saw me outside in the yard through the door or
>> window. She was used to me going out the front door, but did not find
>> it acceptable that I should be outside. She would cry and pace until I
>> came back in. The outside was a big bad place, in her opinion. I could
>> leave the front door open, and she has no interest in it.
>>
>> At our house (with 2 dogs and 3 cats), only one dog shows any interest
>> in the door. My dog is a formerly outside dog, and she hates to go
>> outside.
>
>different strokes for different folks, and we have an animal welfare
>bill here now which could be interpreted to mean that keeping a cat
>indoors is breaking the law depnding on your interpretation of it

That would mean that folks living in apartments couldn't have cats.

bookie
June 25th 07, 02:21 PM
On 25 Jun, 13:48, dgk > wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:46:11 -0700, bookie >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 24 Jun, 08:25, "
> > wrote:
> >> On Jun 20, 9:47 am, bookie > wrote:
>
> >> > i think if i had an apartment I would really think twice about having
> >> > a cat, maybe a really REALLY old cat, one that was FIV or something
> >> > who could not go out at all, and only then if I had a huge flat for
> >> > said puss to run aronud in and I woudl have to invest in lots of cat
> >> > gyms and climbign frame for them. i certainly would not get a kitten
> >> > or young cat in a flat, not really fair on them, they would go stir
> >> > crazy.
>
> >> This is why a lot of people find your posts to be rather judgemental
> >> on the topic. You are assuming than an indoor cat cannot be happy.
> >> Since many of us do have have indoor cats, we can assure you (not that
> >> you would believe us) that our cats are very happy.
>
> >> We have 5 cat trees in our house, and our cats have plenty of toys and
> >> things to do.
>
> >> When I got Jay Jay, he was an outdoor cat. He cried and pawed at every
> >> door and window for a week. It was pitiful. He was very unhappy. But
> >> you know what? After a week, he stopped. I have had 2 1/2 years now,
> >> and he has never attempted to get outside since that first work. He
> >> figured out pretty quickly that life inside is pretty nice. All you
> >> can end food. Endless supply of clean water. Lots of comfy perches.
> >> Lots of toys. Lots of massages. No fighting. No dangerous dogs or
> >> wildlife. He is much happier living the good life.
>
> >> You make it sound like indoor cats are being abused, and that simply
> >> isn't true. Most of them have no idea what is outside. My Kira would
> >> actually panic if she saw me outside in the yard through the door or
> >> window. She was used to me going out the front door, but did not find
> >> it acceptable that I should be outside. She would cry and pace until I
> >> came back in. The outside was a big bad place, in her opinion. I could
> >> leave the front door open, and she has no interest in it.
>
> >> At our house (with 2 dogs and 3 cats), only one dog shows any interest
> >> in the door. My dog is a formerly outside dog, and she hates to go
> >> outside.
>
> >different strokes for different folks, and we have an animal welfare
> >bill here now which could be interpreted to mean that keeping a cat
> >indoors is breaking the law depnding on your interpretation of it
>
> That would mean that folks living in apartments couldn't have cats.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

probably depends how you woudl interpret the new act/bill. I am not
sure I would want to have a cat in a flat anyway, would probably just
have to console myself with a hamster, unless it were a ground floor
in a house conversion, to me it just would not be fair on the cat
although i am not sure one of my cats woudl notice at all as long as
her bed and favourite sofa were in there too

bookie
June 25th 07, 02:23 PM
On 25 Jun, 05:20, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:52:34 -0700, bookie wrote:
> > On 24 Jun, 01:56, Barry > wrote:
> >> On Jun 23, 8:40 pm, bookie > wrote:
>
> >> > you are aware what a hedgehog is aren't you?
>
> >> they act like hogs in the hedges?
>
> > er no, small mammals covered in spines, ever read beatrix potter's books
> > such as The Tale of Mrs Tiggywinkle? she was hedgehog, i can't remember
> > the story though, I much preferred reading the tale of the Flopsy
> > Bunnies and also the Tale of Jemima Puddleduck.
>
> Philip Larkin wrote a poem about killing a hedgehog with his lawnmower.
>
> http://www.wussu.com/poems/pltm.htm
>
>
>
> > they do live in hedges and undergrowth inthe british countryside and
> > just about everywhere really, totally harmless unless maybe you try to
> > pick one up, then you might get a spine inyour hand,
>
> Indeed. Hedgehogs are hazardous when misused...
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/15/serbian_witchdoctor/
>
> Charlie

i think they are incredibly cute little critters and i love it when
they come and munch away on left over cat food, they have to
practically climb into the bowl themselves to get to it, and they have
teeny moist noses and teeny little paws too and they waddle about in
the most amusing way.

how do hedgehogs mate? yes you're right; very carefully!

Barry
June 25th 07, 05:29 PM
On Jun 25, 9:23 am, bookie > wrote:

> how do hedgehogs mate? yes you're right; very carefully!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

porcupines have to be careful too

Dave Whiley
June 25th 07, 09:45 PM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> they do live in hedges and undergrowth inthe british countryside and
> just about everywhere really, totally harmless unless maybe you try to
> pick one up, then you might get a spine inyour hand,

Or fleas... most hedgehogs carry a thriving colony of little visitors

Don't get me wrong. I like hedgehogs (I believe they keep the slug
population in check, which is good for my plants). But if I see one, I
won't pick one up, I'll watch from an unfrightening distance (although I
felt that the *two* I once saw circling one another outside my house
deserved a little privacy. Apparently, the answer really is "very
carefully.")
>
> ... attacked by a giant mutant cat-eating hedgehog ...

DINS-DALE!

(Sorry. I just couldn't resist!)

--
Dave

not-me should be djw401 and there's no need for any wossname

Baldoni
June 27th 07, 10:11 PM
*carmen* explained :
> Hi there
> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> thanks
> Carmen

Get a harness for each of them and introduce them to the garden so they
get orientated.

After time they will find their way around. Keep them in for about 2
weeks first though. Cats have very good memories so will adapt soon.

--
Count Baldoni

Baldoni
June 27th 07, 10:13 PM
MaryL presented the following explanation :
> "*carmen*" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Hi there
>> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
>> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
>> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
>> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
>> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>> thanks
>> Carmen
>>
>
> I would keep them indoors. I believe cats are safer indoors, and they will
> be just as happy if you provide lots of toys, attention, and a climbing
> surface (such as a cat tree). I notice that you live in the UK, so you don't
> have as many predators as we have -- but there are some, and cars are a
> danger everywhere (just not as many as in a city).
>
> MaryL

In the UK it is generally people that live in above ground apartments
that keep them in.

They have to be able to hunt don't they ?

--
Count Baldoni

Baldoni
June 27th 07, 10:16 PM
Patty was thinking very hard :
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:05:01 -0700, PawsForThought wrote:
>
>> I find that usually people who say their cat destroyed their house are
>> people who haven't trained their cats properly, or who haven't
>> provided appropriate scratching surfaces for the cat.
>
> They've always had "appropriate scratching surfaces" and have never clawed
> up furniture. We had our last sofa for 20 years (longer than the cats) and
> it was never scratched or clawed. I guess I could have kept Rusty from
> climbing by chaining him to the floor.
>
> Patty

Mine have plenty of scratch posts and scratch pads but my one cat has
to go for the same piece of carpet in the hallway. I have had to cover
it in tape.

--
Count Baldoni

cybercat
June 27th 07, 11:13 PM
"Baldoni @googlemail.com>" <baldoniXXV<nil> wrote in message
...
> MaryL presented the following explanation :
>> "*carmen*" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Hi there
>>> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
>>> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
>>> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
>>> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
>>> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>>> thanks
>>> Carmen
>>>
>>
>> I would keep them indoors. I believe cats are safer indoors, and they
>> will be just as happy if you provide lots of toys, attention, and a
>> climbing surface (such as a cat tree). I notice that you live in the UK,
>> so you don't have as many predators as we have -- but there are some, and
>> cars are a danger everywhere (just not as many as in a city).
>>
>> MaryL
>
> In the UK it is generally people that live in above ground apartments that
> keep them in.
>
> They have to be able to hunt don't they ?
>

My indoor cat hunts and kills a rubber snake and presents it to me several
times a day. She does this with gusto, and presents it to me with a great
deal of satisfaction. She tires herself out with this activity and then
flakes out.

The only downside: I have to make sure the snake is put up at night or she
wakes me up howling from conquering to presenting.

MaryL
June 28th 07, 12:25 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Baldoni @googlemail.com>" <baldoniXXV<nil> wrote in message
> ...
>> MaryL presented the following explanation :
>>> "*carmen*" > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>>> Hi there
>>>> I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
>>>> flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
>>>> we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
>>>> scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
>>>> them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
>>>> thanks
>>>> Carmen
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would keep them indoors. I believe cats are safer indoors, and they
>>> will be just as happy if you provide lots of toys, attention, and a
>>> climbing surface (such as a cat tree). I notice that you live in the
>>> UK, so you don't have as many predators as we have -- but there are
>>> some, and cars are a danger everywhere (just not as many as in a city).
>>>
>>> MaryL
>>
>> In the UK it is generally people that live in above ground apartments
>> that keep them in.
>>
>> They have to be able to hunt don't they ?
>>
>
> My indoor cat hunts and kills a rubber snake and presents it to me several
> times a day. She does this with gusto, and presents it to me with a great
> deal of satisfaction. She tires herself out with this activity and then
> flakes out.
>
> The only downside: I have to make sure the snake is put up at night or she
> wakes me up howling from conquering to presenting.
>

Ha! Holly does the same thing, except that she "presents" me with a little
red mouse every evening. I will hear sort of a moaning sound, look up, and
there she comes with her mouse and drops it at my feet. It's obviously a
gift (or, as someone on this group once said, maybe she thinks I don't know
how to hunt for my own food), so she gets lots of praise and "thank yous"
each time.

MaryL

sheelagh
June 28th 07, 02:11 PM
On 27 Jun, 22:11, Baldoni > wrote:
> *carmen* explained :
>
> > Hi there
> > I have two cats, 4 and 5 years old who have always lived inside in a
> > flat. Now we have moved to a house with garden and a forest behind and
> > we were so looking forwards to leave the cats to enjoy.. but I am
> > scared they panic or get lost or a bigger aninmal attacks them (or
> > them attacking a bigger animal) ... Any suggestions?
> > thanks
> > Carmen
>
> Get a harness for each of them and introduce them to the garden so they
> get orientated.
>
> After time they will find their way around. Keep them in for about 2
> weeks first though. Cats have very good memories so will adapt soon.
>
> --
> Count Baldoni



DITTO!
It is the safest option if you are concerned for your cats

On 23 Jun, 02:03, sheelagh > wrote:
> In view of this, I choose to keep my cats indoors most of the time. I
> still feel guilty however, for taking their liberty away from them
> through no fault of their own. So, I choose to allow them out into a
> cat run during the day if they are asking to go out, & when I have the
> time, I also take most of them out to meadow that is behind our home,
> but now, I put them on a pair of reins and take them out in pairs,
> into the very same field where Ringo was shot a few months ago @ near
> point blank range.
>
> I still feel so angry about this incident, but I refuse to be bullied
> into keeping them as **indoor only** cats, because, I am taking away
> the liberty that they already had. nonetheless, I do feel that I can
> no longer allow them out without me being with them to protect them
> against the worst predator of all, which of course are Human Beings.
> Human beings can be far more ruthless than any other mammals that "I"
> have encountered in this country, to date.
>
> It is the best compromise that I can come to with my cats and my
> conscience too.
S;o)