PDA

View Full Version : Cat Pregnancy Questions?


Skye
August 14th 07, 03:32 PM
Hi,

I'm hoping someone can answer these questions!

These are two different cats:

1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/

2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
the
vet?

I'd so appreciate some answers!

Skye

cindys
August 14th 07, 03:43 PM
"Skye" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping someone can answer these questions!
>
> These are two different cats:
>
> 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
> heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
> such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/

Yes. It's called a "spay."

>
> 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
> symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
> few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
> otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
> the
> vet?

You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you
allowing your cats to breed?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
> I'd so appreciate some answers!
>
> Skye
>

Sheelagh >o
August 14th 07, 05:26 PM
On 14 Aug, 15:32, Skye > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping someone can answer these questions!
>
> These are two different cats:
>
> 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
> heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
> such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/
>
> 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
> symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
> few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
> otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
> the
> vet?
>
> I'd so appreciate some answers!
>
> Skye



> These are two different cats:
>
> 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
> heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
> such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/

I used to breed, & the eldest queen that I knew about was 8 years old.
Generally a breeder would be wise enough to retire their Queen by 5
years old though. To ask a Queen to breed beyond that age, would be to
entertain trouble & strife, & unfair on the cat. If you can see that
her teats are enlarged & pink, then I suggest that you get yourself &
your cat to the vet asap. Unlike USA, over in the UK (where I am
posting from), We have to find a vet who would ethically be willing to
spay the Queen & abort her kittens. Nonetheless, find a vet to fit her
into their surgery ASAP & have her spayed to ensure that this never
happens again....

I am sorry, but I can't answer your question regarding feline
menopause, because I always spayed my Queens before 5 years of age.
However, It's Possible that another person here might be able to
answer that for you.


> 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
> symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
> few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
> otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
> the
> vet?

YES!!

Ring your vet right now & ask if they can squeeze her into their
schedule, PLEASE? No, it is not normal at all!

I know that you really aren't going to want to hear this, but it needs
to be said. If she is a first time queen, & she is spotting, it
doesn't bode well for future pregnancies. If you are a breeder, I
realise that you are going to continue to try mating her @ least once
more time, to see if you can recoup your money for your Queen.

If this is the case, & this happens again, I really would recommend
that you spay her ASAP, & either keep her as a pet, or sell her.
PLEASE, ensure that you spay her if she is a registered Queen, & do
not sell her as a registered Queen. I say this because there are
unscrupulous breeders that would do this, if only to get their money
back, but it would be quite possibly at the expense of her life.
Please, do think carefully about this one. My advice is to spay both
her & your older Queen.
If you feel that you can't do both, then have your elder Queen first,
& fast too?!

Sheelagh >"o"<

Skye
August 14th 07, 07:49 PM
On Aug 14, 9:43 am, "cindys" > wrote:
> "Skye" > wrote:
>
> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
> > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/
>
> Yes. It's called a "spay."

I'm glad your life is so well-ordered and nothing ever gets out of
your control once
in a while. However, please realize that's not the case with everyone
in the world, mkay?

The older cat is a feral cat who I've been feeding for the last two
years, but has
hung around this neighborhood for at least 10. I've somehow grown
attached,
even though she is wild. She will not come to me nor allow me to so
much as touch her. You tell me how to get her to the vet, Cindy S.,
ok?

Last summer, some of the neighbors tried to get rid of her. They did
manage to
catch her kittens and most of them were put to sleep. This summer,
we've managed
to get the kittens before they were found, but we had to pull off
commando-type
raids under cat-hating neighbors porches to do it.

She seems to be safe and stays under the radar all the rest of the
year.

I simply wondered how many more summers I could look forward to
worrying about
this. Or do you just think I should stop feeding her? I mean, what
gives with your
attitude???


> > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
> > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
> > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
> > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
> > the
> > vet?
>
> You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you
> allowing your cats to breed?

This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I
wanted her to
have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat!
Seriously, I'm not sure
since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you
want your
cat to breed, you are allowed to do so. Unless there's some law I'm
not aware
of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to
ask
permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol.

Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure
you, the
world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight.

Skye

William Graham
August 14th 07, 07:59 PM
"Skye" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
>
> On Aug 14, 9:43 am, "cindys" > wrote:
>> "Skye" > wrote:
>>
>> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
>> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
>> > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/
>>
>> Yes. It's called a "spay."
>
> I'm glad your life is so well-ordered and nothing ever gets out of
> your control once
> in a while. However, please realize that's not the case with everyone
> in the world, mkay?
>
> The older cat is a feral cat who I've been feeding for the last two
> years, but has
> hung around this neighborhood for at least 10. I've somehow grown
> attached,
> even though she is wild. She will not come to me nor allow me to so
> much as touch her. You tell me how to get her to the vet, Cindy S.,
> ok?
>
> Last summer, some of the neighbors tried to get rid of her. They did
> manage to
> catch her kittens and most of them were put to sleep. This summer,
> we've managed
> to get the kittens before they were found, but we had to pull off
> commando-type
> raids under cat-hating neighbors porches to do it.
>
> She seems to be safe and stays under the radar all the rest of the
> year.
>
> I simply wondered how many more summers I could look forward to
> worrying about
> this. Or do you just think I should stop feeding her? I mean, what
> gives with your
> attitude???
>
>
>> > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
>> > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
>> > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
>> > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
>> > the
>> > vet?
>>
>> You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you
>> allowing your cats to breed?
>
> This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I
> wanted her to
> have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat!
> Seriously, I'm not sure
> since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you
> want your
> cat to breed, you are allowed to do so. Unless there's some law I'm
> not aware
> of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to
> ask
> permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol.
>
> Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure
> you, the
> world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight.
>
> Skye
>
You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to eat.
Then you can bring her to the vet where they will tranquilizer her and spay
her. Then you can bring her back and let her go, and she won't have any more
kittens....Also, she is likely to stick around your place (or wherever the
food is best) and become domesticated.......

Contact your local cat coalition or the vet to find out about this.......

Skye
August 14th 07, 08:01 PM
On Aug 14, 11:26 am, "Sheelagh >o<" >
wrote:
> On 14 Aug, 15:32, Skye > wrote:

> I used to breed, & the eldest queen that I knew about was 8 years old.
> Generally a breeder would be wise enough to retire their Queen by 5
> years old though. To ask a Queen to breed beyond that age, would be to
> entertain trouble & strife, & unfair on the cat. If you can see that
> her teats are enlarged & pink, then I suggest that you get yourself &
> your cat to the vet asap. Unlike USA, over in the UK (where I am
> posting from), We have to find a vet who would ethically be willing to
> spay the Queen & abort her kittens. Nonetheless, find a vet to fit her
> into their surgery ASAP & have her spayed to ensure that this never
> happens again....

Thanks for your kind response. Please see my reply to Cindy S. about
the older cat
..

> > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
> > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
> > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
> > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
> > the
> > vet?
>
> YES!!
>
> Ring your vet right now & ask if they can squeeze her into their
> schedule, PLEASE? No, it is not normal at all!
>
> I know that you really aren't going to want to hear this, but it needs
> to be said. If she is a first time queen, & she is spotting, it
> doesn't bode well for future pregnancies. If you are a breeder, I
> realise that you are going to continue to try mating her @ least once
> more time, to see if you can recoup your money for your Queen.

Thank you, Sheelagh, that's the main thing I wanted to know.

Skye

cindys
August 14th 07, 09:08 PM
"Skye" > wrote in message
s.com...
> This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I
> wanted her to
> have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat!
> Seriously, I'm not sure
> since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you
> want your
> cat to breed, you are allowed to do so.
--------
Yes, you're allowed. And please sleep well tonight with the knowledge that
thousands of cats are being euthanized in shelters every year for lack of
homes and every one of your kittens that you place in a home represents a
shelter cat who will not have a home and will be euthanized. But please
don't let that minor inconvenience stand in the way of your fulfilling your
selfish desire to let your cat breed. And rest assured, that you will find
very little support for your position on the rec.pets.cats.health+behavior
newsgroup. But you are correct that in America, the "me, me, me" approach to
life is alive and well. Selfishness and self-centeredness are certainly not
against the law.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



>Unless there's some law I'm
> not aware
> of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to
> ask
> permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol.
>
> Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure
> you, the
> world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight.
>
> Skye
>

William Graham
August 14th 07, 09:13 PM
"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Skye" > wrote in message
> s.com...
>> This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I
>> wanted her to
>> have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat!
>> Seriously, I'm not sure
>> since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you
>> want your
>> cat to breed, you are allowed to do so.
> --------
> Yes, you're allowed. And please sleep well tonight with the knowledge that
> thousands of cats are being euthanized in shelters every year for lack of
> homes and every one of your kittens that you place in a home represents a
> shelter cat who will not have a home and will be euthanized. But please
> don't let that minor inconvenience stand in the way of your fulfilling
> your selfish desire to let your cat breed. And rest assured, that you will
> find very little support for your position on the
> rec.pets.cats.health+behavior newsgroup. But you are correct that in
> America, the "me, me, me" approach to life is alive and well. Selfishness
> and self-centeredness are certainly not against the law.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>
>
>>Unless there's some law I'm
>> not aware
>> of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to
>> ask
>> permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol.
>>
>> Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure
>> you, the
>> world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight.
>>
>> Skye
>>
Errrrrr......I don't want to start a flame war here, but you might just put
a teensy weensy bit of the blame on God, don't you think? - After all,
literally millions of cute furry little animals die of starvation, thirst
and the cold every year, and there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about
it........I often wonder how well He sleeps at night......

Rene S.
August 14th 07, 09:38 PM
> You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to eat.
> Then you can bring her to the vet where they will tranquilizer her and spay
> her. Then you can bring her back and let her go, and she won't have any more
> kittens....Also, she is likely to stick around your place (or wherever the
> food is best) and become domesticated.......
>
> Contact your local cat coalition or the vet to find out about this.......

Since she is a feral, you could also call your local animal shelter to
see if they will offer assistance. Some have TNR (trap, neuter,
release) programs or offer low-cost spays. Many will also loan you a
humane trap.

Unfortunately, by asking these questions you have stumbled onto one of
the hot topics on this forum. Almost all of us regulars here
_strongly_ believe in spaying and neutering, both for the prevention
of unwanted/unneeded litters but also for the overall health and well
being of the animal. Spaying will prevent certain types of cancers and
eliminate many unwanted behaviors (coming into heat, caterwauling,
spraying). With the millions of animals that are euthanized each year,
it's hard *not* to be an advocate of spaying.

cindys
August 14th 07, 10:18 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
...

snip
>>>
> Errrrrr......I don't want to start a flame war here, but you might just
> put a teensy weensy bit of the blame on God, don't you think? - After all,
> literally millions of cute furry little animals die of starvation, thirst
> and the cold every year, and there isn't a damn thing any of us can do
> about it........I often wonder how well He sleeps at night......
--------
No one can fix the world, but we can do our best to not make things worse.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Skye
August 15th 07, 01:02 AM
On Aug 14, 1:59 pm, "William Graham" > wrote:
>
> You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to eat.
> Then you can bring her to the vet where they will tranquilizer her and spay
> her. Then you can bring her back and let her go, and she won't have any more
> kittens....Also, she is likely to stick around your place (or wherever the
> food is best) and become domesticated.......
>
I've thought about doing that, but I'd be afraid she'd never show at
my door
again. In fact, I'm not even sure it would work - she's been
incredibly canny
(or incredibly lucky) when it comes to the animal control cages around
the
neighborhood at various times. It's certainly something to think
about
though - thanks!

Actually, if I do anything, it'll be that, if I can find a sympathetic
vet.

Skye

Skye
August 15th 07, 01:46 AM
On Aug 14, 3:13 pm, "William Graham" > wrote:

> Errrrrr......I don't want to start a flame war here, but you might just put
> a teensy weensy bit of the blame on God, don't you think? - After all,
> literally millions of cute furry little animals die of starvation, thirst
> and the cold every year, and there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about
> it........I often wonder how well He sleeps at night......

Sometimes I feel the same way, these are bad endings for innocent
creatures,
but here's a thought, William . . .

Would you *really* want to be vying for elbow room with dogs, bears,
rabbits,
etc, etc.? Sharing diseases? Can you imagine the humongous abuse
rate,
the hunting and killing for sport?

I think nature knows what it's doing. We may not like some aspects of
it (for
example, I don't especially care about the fact that everything dies
at all, including
us), but it IS beautiful in it's own way.

And as far as God is concerned, She set all this in motion and
probably
sleeps just fine. :-)

Skye

Skye
August 15th 07, 01:46 AM
On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "Rene S." > wrote:

> Since she is a feral, you could also call your local animal shelter to
> see if they will offer assistance. Some have TNR (trap, neuter,
> release) programs or offer low-cost spays. Many will also loan you a
> humane trap.

Our animal shelter does not offer a TNR program or any low cost
spays.
They might offer a trap, though.
>
> Unfortunately, by asking these questions you have stumbled onto one of
> the hot topics on this forum. Almost all of us regulars here
> _strongly_ believe in spaying and neutering, both for the prevention
> of unwanted/unneeded litters but also for the overall health and well
> being of the animal. Spaying will prevent certain types of cancers and
> eliminate many unwanted behaviors (coming into heat, caterwauling,
> spraying). With the millions of animals that are euthanized each year,
> it's hard *not* to be an advocate of spaying.

I asked my questions with the only objective of getting information.
With
no disrespect intended, I for some reason just don't care about
posters'
opinions, approval, or disapproval. They don't know me or my
situations.

I *tried* to care about an hour ago, but I just can't. I mean, no
offense, but
you all are faceless, anonymous Usenet users - I don't understand how
to
care about that. And I can't believe anyone cares that much about
what
I do. They have to jump on and lecture every time someone posts
anything
with the words "pregnant" and "cat" in it, so that it makes THEM feel
like they
have some purpose in life. It's ridiculous.

I do care that some of the posters took the time and trouble to
respond with
some constructive information. THOSE are the ones I hear.

Skye

William Graham
August 15th 07, 01:57 AM
"Skye" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "Rene S." > wrote:
>
>> Since she is a feral, you could also call your local animal shelter to
>> see if they will offer assistance. Some have TNR (trap, neuter,
>> release) programs or offer low-cost spays. Many will also loan you a
>> humane trap.
>
> Our animal shelter does not offer a TNR program or any low cost
> spays.
> They might offer a trap, though.
>>
>> Unfortunately, by asking these questions you have stumbled onto one of
>> the hot topics on this forum. Almost all of us regulars here
>> _strongly_ believe in spaying and neutering, both for the prevention
>> of unwanted/unneeded litters but also for the overall health and well
>> being of the animal. Spaying will prevent certain types of cancers and
>> eliminate many unwanted behaviors (coming into heat, caterwauling,
>> spraying). With the millions of animals that are euthanized each year,
>> it's hard *not* to be an advocate of spaying.
>
> I asked my questions with the only objective of getting information.
> With
> no disrespect intended, I for some reason just don't care about
> posters'
> opinions, approval, or disapproval. They don't know me or my
> situations.
>
> I *tried* to care about an hour ago, but I just can't. I mean, no
> offense, but
> you all are faceless, anonymous Usenet users - I don't understand how
> to
> care about that. And I can't believe anyone cares that much about
> what
> I do. They have to jump on and lecture every time someone posts
> anything
> with the words "pregnant" and "cat" in it, so that it makes THEM feel
> like they
> have some purpose in life. It's ridiculous.
>
> I do care that some of the posters took the time and trouble to
> respond with
> some constructive information. THOSE are the ones I hear.
>
> Skye
>
>
With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in
common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them.
Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion, you are risking getting bad
advice.....the question I have is: Why did you post here in the first place?

William Graham
August 15th 07, 02:00 AM
"Skye" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 14, 1:59 pm, "William Graham" > wrote:
>>
>> You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to
>> eat.
>> Then you can bring her to the vet where they will tranquilizer her and
>> spay
>> her. Then you can bring her back and let her go, and she won't have any
>> more
>> kittens....Also, she is likely to stick around your place (or wherever
>> the
>> food is best) and become domesticated.......
>>
> I've thought about doing that, but I'd be afraid she'd never show at
> my door
> again. In fact, I'm not even sure it would work - she's been
> incredibly canny
> (or incredibly lucky) when it comes to the animal control cages around
> the
> neighborhood at various times. It's certainly something to think
> about
> though - thanks!
>
> Actually, if I do anything, it'll be that, if I can find a sympathetic
> vet.
>
> Skye
>
I have had this problem in the past, and what I did was trap the cat, and
then call a friend of mine to pick it up (in the trap) and bring it to the
vet. Then, I picked it up at the vet the next day, and brought it home and
let it go.....The cat didn't connect me with its experience.....Probably
thought of me as the one who rescued it from that terrible place. (The
vet:^)

cindys
August 15th 07, 02:11 AM
"Skye" > wrote in message
ps.com...

>
> I *tried* to care about an hour ago, but I just can't. I mean, no
> offense, but
> you all are faceless, anonymous Usenet users

As are you.

>- I don't understand how
> to
> care about that. And I can't believe anyone cares that much about
> what
> I do. They have to jump on and lecture every time someone posts
> anything
> with the words "pregnant" and "cat" in it, so that it makes THEM feel
> like they
> have some purpose in life. It's ridiculous.

Is that so? Well, looks like you have us all figured out. Do you have a
purpose in life other than breeding cats and posting questions to strangers
on Usenet?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.


>
> I do care that some of the posters took the time and trouble to
> respond with
> some constructive information. THOSE are the ones I hear.
>
> Skye
>
>

Wendy
August 15th 07, 01:52 PM
"Skye" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
>
> On Aug 14, 9:43 am, "cindys" > wrote:
>> "Skye" > wrote:
>>
>> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
>> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
>> > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/
>>
>> Yes. It's called a "spay."
>
> I'm glad your life is so well-ordered and nothing ever gets out of
> your control once
> in a while. However, please realize that's not the case with everyone
> in the world, mkay?
>
> The older cat is a feral cat who I've been feeding for the last two
> years, but has
> hung around this neighborhood for at least 10. I've somehow grown
> attached,
> even though she is wild. She will not come to me nor allow me to so
> much as touch her. You tell me how to get her to the vet, Cindy S.,
> ok?

You buy or borrow (rescue groups and shelters sometimes lend traps - ask
them) a humane trap. If you've been feeding this cat anyway it should be
quite easy to trap her. Check with the rescue groups for recommendations for
low-cost spay neuter locations where they will do feral cats. Make an
appointment. The day of or the night before the appointment, put some good
smelly wet food in the back of the trap and set it shortly before the time
that the cat usually shows up to eat. Then wait in an out of sight but not
out of hearing place for the unique sound of a trap tripping. Cover trap
with a large towel and take the cat in the trap to the vet for her spay. If
it's the night before, place a large plastic bag on the floor of a garage or
similar place. Put a thick layer of newspaper on the plastic bag and then
set the trap on them. The cat will be fine in a covered trap overnight.
>
> Last summer, some of the neighbors tried to get rid of her. They did
> manage to
> catch her kittens and most of them were put to sleep. This summer,
> we've managed
> to get the kittens before they were found, but we had to pull off
> commando-type
> raids under cat-hating neighbors porches to do it.
>
> She seems to be safe and stays under the radar all the rest of the
> year.
>
> I simply wondered how many more summers I could look forward to
> worrying about
> this. Or do you just think I should stop feeding her? I mean, what
> gives with your
> attitude???

If you aren't willing to get her spayed, you are doing more harm than good
by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing
kittens when there are already too many kittens to ever possibly home. You
basically are facilitating the birth of kittens so that they or others like
them will have to be put to death. I know people mean well when they start
feeding strays but the truth is that it's better not to and just let nature
take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and
spay/neuter the cat.


>
>
>> > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
>> > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
>> > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
>> > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
>> > the
>> > vet?
>>
>> You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you
>> allowing your cats to breed?
>
> This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I
> wanted her to
> have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat!
> Seriously, I'm not sure
> since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you
> want your
> cat to breed, you are allowed to do so. Unless there's some law I'm
> not aware
> of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to
> ask
> permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol.
>
> Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure
> you, the
> world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight.

> Skye
>

People tend to get a little bent out of shape with people who are willfully
adding to the cat over-population problem. I volunteer for a cat rescue
group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend we
had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared
to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA to
get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told her
they couldn't help us because they didn't have room. Our volunteer told them
that we weren't asking them to take the cat and house it but to put it out
of it's misery. The shelter person again said they didn't have room. When it
became obvious that they were miscommunicating the shelter person clarified
that they didn't have any room in their FREEZER where they keep the
euthanized animals until they can be cremated. She said that they couldn't
fit a hampster in the freezer if they had to. THAT'S how many unwanted
animals there are out there. And THAT'S why people tend to get a little
short with someone who is exacerbating the problem.

W

Skye
August 15th 07, 03:58 PM
On Aug 14, 7:57 pm, "William Graham" > wrote:

> With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in
> common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them.

Apparently, that's not entirely true. There are evidently some in
here who think
it's best to just let stray cats and dogs starve. THAT can't be
good.

> Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion,

which I *didn't*

> you are risking getting bad
> advice.....the question I have is: Why did you post here in the first place?

For information:

1. To find out if there is an age at which a female cat might stop
breeding
naturally.

2. To find out if my pregnant cat was medically in danger.

To my knowledge, only 1 person attempted to specifically answered both
questions.
The rest is just rabid, nutty farting in the wind to me - with the
exception of your
advice of trapping the older cat.

When I was having trouble with my car, I posted my problem to some
car
newsgroups asking for information. I received 12 responses packed
full
of info so that I was able to get my car fixed quickly. There were no
opinions -
no one accused me of letting my car get in disrepair or putting
pollution into
the air by driving a car, no judgmental attitudes at all. I simply
received
information that I needed.

However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and
I've forgotten
how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know
they're anonymous. All you can do is killfile some, ignore others,
and pick the most
constructive ones out of the mess.

Skye

Skye
August 15th 07, 04:20 PM
On Aug 15, 7:52 am, "Wendy" > wrote:

> If you aren't willing to get her spayed,

Which I never said I wasn't willing, but ya'll assumed...

> you are doing more harm than good
> by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing
> kittens when there are already too many kittens to ever possibly home. You
> basically are facilitating the birth of kittens so that they or others like
> them will have to be put to death. I know people mean well when they start
> feeding strays but the truth is that it's better not to and just let nature
> take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and
> spay/neuter the cat.

Oh for God's sakes, I would NEVER start feeding a cat or dog just to
quit
when it becomes inconvenient for me. THAT's one of MY pet peeves -
people who do that or take on pets just to dump them when they get
tired
of them or they don't like them. And I know it happens a lot. So
forget
it - not even up for discussion. But thanks for reminding me there's
people like you who do that and/or advocate it. It's sick. :-/

Or that I should have ignored her 2 years ago when she was stumbling
around broken, starving, and skeletal. I DID try for about 8 years,
but
come on now. Every animal lover has their limit, and actually, I
don't
regret starting it one bit.

Truth is, this is the first cat I've ever "had" that I couldn't win
over, and I'm not
comfortable with that fact. I didn't know at the beginning she
wouldn't warm
up to me, now did I? But just because she's like that, doesn't mean
I'm gonna
discard her like a soiled tissue now.

For anyone else who's reading this: don't take on a dog, cat, rabbit,
gerbil,
ferret, etc., unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you're
willing to
stand by and take care of it for the rest of it's life. If you don't
think you're
up to it or mature enough or are too fickle in your relationships,
simply
DON'T DO IT to begin with. End of story. And that goes for feeding
strays
too. Even if there's a risk you might not be able to spay it or make
a true
"pet" out of it. Once you start, it's yours. Jeesh.

> THAT'S why people tend to get a little
> short with someone who is exacerbating the problem.

Oh, go pick on someone who deserves it. Surely, you can find someone
out of all the pet-dumpers, animal abusers, people who REGULARLY
don't
get their pets spayed or neutered, people who don't CARE about
euthanized animals, etc., etc. Hey, I'll even join you for that.

Skye

cindys
August 15th 07, 05:32 PM
"Skye" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and
> I've forgotten
> how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know
> they're anonymous.
-----
With all due respect, you could easily be describing your own behavior on
this newsgroup.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Ivor Jones
August 15th 07, 05:49 PM
"Skye" > wrote in message
ps.com
: : On Aug 14, 7:57 pm, "William Graham" >
: : wrote:
: :
: : : With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has
: : : one thing in common....We all love cats and hate to
: : : see anything bad happen to them.
: :
: : Apparently, that's not entirely true. There are
: : evidently some in here who think
: : it's best to just let stray cats and dogs starve. THAT
: : can't be good.
: :
: : : Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion,
: :
: : which I *didn't*

Actually you did, by posting here.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what's been posted, but the simple
act of posting a message on a newsgroup implies that you want replies.
These replies will invariably be people's opinions. Whether or not they
are facts is a different matter entirely.


Ivor

Sheelagh >o
August 15th 07, 06:28 PM
On 15 Aug, 13:52, "Wendy" > wrote:
> "Skye" > wrote in message
>
> s.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 9:43 am, "cindys" > wrote:
> >> "Skye" > wrote:
>
> >> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
> >> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
> >> > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/
>
> >> Yes. It's called a "spay."
>
> > I'm glad your life is so well-ordered and nothing ever gets out of
> > your control once
> > in a while. However, please realize that's not the case with everyone
> > in the world, mkay?
>
> > The older cat is a feral cat who I've been feeding for the last two
> > years, but has
> > hung around this neighborhood for at least 10. I've somehow grown
> > attached,
> > even though she is wild. She will not come to me nor allow me to so
> > much as touch her. You tell me how to get her to the vet, Cindy S.,
> > ok?
>
> You buy or borrow (rescue groups and shelters sometimes lend traps - ask
> them) a humane trap. If you've been feeding this cat anyway it should be
> quite easy to trap her. Check with the rescue groups for recommendations for
> low-cost spay neuter locations where they will do feral cats. Make an
> appointment. The day of or the night before the appointment, put some good
> smelly wet food in the back of the trap and set it shortly before the time
> that the cat usually shows up to eat. Then wait in an out of sight but not
> out of hearing place for the unique sound of a trap tripping. Cover trap
> with a large towel and take the cat in the trap to the vet for her spay. If
> it's the night before, place a large plastic bag on the floor of a garage or
> similar place. Put a thick layer of newspaper on the plastic bag and then
> set the trap on them. The cat will be fine in a covered trap overnight.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Last summer, some of the neighbors tried to get rid of her. They did
> > manage to
> > catch her kittens and most of them were put to sleep. This summer,
> > we've managed
> > to get the kittens before they were found, but we had to pull off
> > commando-type
> > raids under cat-hating neighbors porches to do it.
>
> > She seems to be safe and stays under the radar all the rest of the
> > year.
>
> > I simply wondered how many more summers I could look forward to
> > worrying about
> > this. Or do you just think I should stop feeding her? I mean, what
> > gives with your
> > attitude???
>
> If you aren't willing to get her spayed, you are doing more harm than good
> by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing
> kittens when there are already too many kittens to ever possibly home. You
> basically are facilitating the birth of kittens so that they or others like
> them will have to be put to death. I know people mean well when they start
> feeding strays but the truth is that it's better not to and just let nature
> take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and
> spay/neuter the cat.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
> >> > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
> >> > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
> >> > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
> >> > the
> >> > vet?
>
> >> You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you
> >> allowing your cats to breed?
>
> > This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I
> > wanted her to
> > have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat!
> > Seriously, I'm not sure
> > since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you
> > want your
> > cat to breed, you are allowed to do so. Unless there's some law I'm
> > not aware
> > of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to
> > ask
> > permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol.
>
> > Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure
> > you, the
> > world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight.
> > Skye
>
> People tend to get a little bent out of shape with people who are willfully
> adding to the cat over-population problem. I volunteer for a cat rescue
> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend we
> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared
> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA to
> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told her
> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room. Our volunteer told them
> that we weren't asking them to take the cat and house it but to put it out
> of it's misery. The shelter person again said they didn't have room. When it
> became obvious that they were miscommunicating the shelter person clarified
> that they didn't have any room in their FREEZER where they keep the
> euthanized animals until they can be cremated. She said that they couldn't
> fit a hampster in the freezer if they had to. THAT'S how many unwanted
> animals there are out there. And THAT'S why people tend to get a little
> short with someone who is exacerbating the problem.
>
> W- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> You buy or borrow (rescue groups and shelters sometimes lend traps - ask
> them) a humane trap. If you've been feeding this cat anyway it should be
> quite easy to trap her. Check with the rescue groups for recommendations for
> low-cost spay neuter locations where they will do feral cats. Make an
> appointment. The day of or the night before the appointment, put some good
> smelly wet food in the back of the trap and set it shortly before the time
> that the cat usually shows up to eat. Then wait in an out of sight but not
> out of hearing place for the unique sound of a trap tripping. Cover trap
> with a large towel and take the cat in the trap to the vet for her spay. If
> it's the night before, place a large plastic bag on the floor of a garage or
> similar place. Put a thick layer of newspaper on the plastic bag and then
> set the trap on them. The cat will be fine in a covered trap overnight.

Yes, I found that heating the food up attracted them straight to to
the bowl because their sense of smell is so superior to our own. I
couldn't find any society that was willing to lend me a trap, but I
did find a private american citizen on a USAF base that was willing to
lend me one. I was no expert on trapping cats, believe me- In fact, I
had never tried trapping a cat before, but with advice from Phil, I
managed to catch Lucy(fur!!) first time, so please @ least have the
confidence to try it out?
The vet was good enough to come out to us, & treated her immediate
needs, & we took her in the following day to have her spayed.
Lucy(fur!) was the only one that was so shy that we simply couldn't
catch her though. The rest, we were able to entice with food alone.

> If you aren't willing to get her spayed, you are doing more harm than good
> by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing
> kittens when there are already too many kittens to ever possibly home. You
> basically are facilitating the birth of kittens so that they or others like
> them will have to be put to death. I know people mean well when they start
> feeding strays but the truth is that it's better not to and just let nature
> take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and
> spay/neuter the cat.

I wonder if you have a society in the USA that will pay towards the
cost of spaying a cat? In the UK we have a society called the Cat
Protection League, & their main objective, is to spay, neuter & advise
on how to catch cats that need fixing. They also rescue cats too, but
are totally reliant on volunteers who are willing to help for nothing.
If you do, these might be the best people to contact? Over here, they
are willing to pay half the cost towards spay or neuter fee's, which
is very helpful if you face the charge personally for a cat that you
don't own & intend to release.I was wondering if you have any similar
programs in the USA that you can go to if you need help like this?


> People tend to get a little bent out of shape with people who are willfully
> adding to the cat over-population problem. I volunteer for a cat rescue
> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend we
> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared
> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA to
> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told her
> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room. Our volunteer told them
> that we weren't asking them to take the cat and house it but to put it out
> of it's misery. The shelter person again said they didn't have room. When it
> became obvious that they were miscommunicating the shelter person clarified
> that they didn't have any room in their FREEZER where they keep the
> euthanized animals until they can be cremated. She said that they couldn't
> fit a hampster in the freezer if they had to. THAT'S how many unwanted
> animals there are out there. And THAT'S why people tend to get a little
> short with someone who is exacerbating the problem.

OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I
used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our
community bowl, but having heard this story, I now understand why. Our
community bowl has two objectives. The first was to stop them
starving, & the second was to see that they were fixed. I end up
paying around $30 for a male, & $40 for a female. It's not a huge
amount of money to find, & well worth the hassle of catching them. It
is also worth having a word with your regular vet, to see if they are
willing to do cheaper rates if you take more than say, one a month to
them too.

I knew that things were bad in the USA regarding feral & unwanted
cats, but I had no idea exactly how bad. I hope that story serves as a
reminder to others as to why it is so important to get them spayed &
neutered. I have to say that I am very shocked to hear your story.
That is absolutely horrific!! I can only assume that we lead very
sheltered lives in the UK, or the problem is not yet quite at crisis
point.
Thank you for sharing this story with us.

Sheelagh >"o"<
( Nice to see you too;o)

William Graham
August 15th 07, 07:55 PM
"Skye" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Aug 14, 7:57 pm, "William Graham" > wrote:
>
>> With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in
>> common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them.
>
> Apparently, that's not entirely true. There are evidently some in
> here who think
> it's best to just let stray cats and dogs starve. THAT can't be
> good.
>
>> Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion,
>
> which I *didn't*
>
>> you are risking getting bad
>> advice.....the question I have is: Why did you post here in the first
>> place?
>
> For information:
>
> 1. To find out if there is an age at which a female cat might stop
> breeding
> naturally.
>
> 2. To find out if my pregnant cat was medically in danger.
>
> To my knowledge, only 1 person attempted to specifically answered both
> questions.
> The rest is just rabid, nutty farting in the wind to me - with the
> exception of your
> advice of trapping the older cat.
>
> When I was having trouble with my car, I posted my problem to some
> car
> newsgroups asking for information. I received 12 responses packed
> full
> of info so that I was able to get my car fixed quickly. There were no
> opinions -
> no one accused me of letting my car get in disrepair or putting
> pollution into
> the air by driving a car, no judgmental attitudes at all. I simply
> received
> information that I needed.
>
> However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and
> I've forgotten
> how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know
> they're anonymous. All you can do is killfile some, ignore others,
> and pick the most
> constructive ones out of the mess.
>
> Skye
>
Well, you have to understand that not all of us cat lovers agree on
everything.....Exactly what is the best way to help cats is a matter of
opinion, and there are things that some of us would do that others wouldn't
do.....I happen (for example) to believe it is better to let a cat go, and
give it a chance to fend for itself, than it is to put it to sleep.....But
we have had some rousing wars and disagreements on this point. I picked up
my favorite cat from a Burger King parking lot, where someone who couldn't
keep him any longer just dropped him off.....When he tried to beg some
hamburger from me, he got his little fanny thrown in my car, and brought
home permanently. Not all cats are so lucky, so I can understand why others
disagree with me.....

Wendy
August 15th 07, 09:33 PM
>
> OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I
> used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our
> community bowl, but having heard this story, I now understand why. Our
> community bowl has two objectives. The first was to stop them
> starving, & the second was to see that they were fixed. I end up
> paying around $30 for a male, & $40 for a female. It's not a huge
> amount of money to find, & well worth the hassle of catching them. It
> is also worth having a word with your regular vet, to see if they are
> willing to do cheaper rates if you take more than say, one a month to
> them too.
>
> I knew that things were bad in the USA regarding feral & unwanted
> cats, but I had no idea exactly how bad. I hope that story serves as a
> reminder to others as to why it is so important to get them spayed &
> neutered. I have to say that I am very shocked to hear your story.
> That is absolutely horrific!! I can only assume that we lead very
> sheltered lives in the UK, or the problem is not yet quite at crisis
> point.
> Thank you for sharing this story with us.
>
> Sheelagh >"o"<
> ( Nice to see you too;o)
>

It's the God's honest truth. I was shocked when the volunteer came back and
told us of the problem she had getting the poor thing put out of it's
misery. It was bent over backwards seizing and covered it what looked like
maggots and the SPCA couldn't help us. The volunteer finally took it to a
private vet who was still open and they euthanized the kitten for us.

We're smack dab in the middle of kitten season here and I guess everyone is
filled up with cats. There is a shelter in Philadelphia that has been giving
them away for a dollar just so they don't have to euthanize. The sad thing
is that many of these $1 cats will be returned or dumped back on the street
and have to be dealt with later. Maybe there will be more room then though -
or at least one can hope.

I'm back up to 17 fosters myself. Two of them are bottle feeders that were
found outside with no mom. There were four kittens to start with but the one
was dead when it arrived at the vets office and they euthanized the other
because it was so sick. I was at the vet's picking up one of my fosters (the
mother of 6 kittens born on Father's Day) and they asked if I could take the
surviving two.

W

Charlie Wilkes
August 15th 07, 11:17 PM
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:20:49 +0000, Skye wrote:
>
> Oh for God's sakes, I would NEVER start feeding a cat or dog just to
> quit when it becomes inconvenient for me.

That's commendable, but what is wrong with the idea of trapping this
animal and getting her spayed? What if she comes around with a litter of
kittens? Will you feed them all? Eventually you might be faced with a
Malthusian problem.

Charlie

sheelagh via CatKB.com
August 16th 07, 01:53 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> Oh for God's sakes, I would NEVER start feeding a cat or dog just to
>> quit when it becomes inconvenient for me.
>
>That's commendable, but what is wrong with the idea of trapping this
>animal and getting her spayed? What if she comes around with a litter of
>kittens? Will you feed them all? Eventually you might be faced with a
>Malthusian problem.
>
>Charlie

Absolutely nothing at all. I think this would be the ideal answer actually.
The best person to trap her, would be Skye, or someone that would be willing
to assist her to trap her initially. All she needs is a bit of support, to
believe in herself. I know how daunted I felt @ the prospect of trying to
catch Lucy (fur!!). I had no confidence in myself & worride silly that if If
didn't get it right, that she would never trust me again, or even return.
However, with a bit of support & self belief, I had the confidence to try it
out. Mind you, I did worry that If I failed I wouldn't ever get the chance to
even try again, & my immediate worry was that her wounds were festering, & I
knew that if I didn't manage to trap her, that it might have been the end of
her. I think the main thing, is that Skye receives the support she needs, &
to be encouraged to seek help with trapping this elder queen.

IMHO, it is vital that she seeks & finds that support, & It might also help
if she had some outside help with this one too. I don't know what options are
available to her, but I am certain there must be some kind of support? Once
she finds this support, they might even be willing to help her to physically
help her trap her? I also agree that if Skye feels that she simply can't be
associated with the cat's trauma & be affecting their bond, then it would be
best for her to ask for another person to trap her As long as Skye is willing
to spay for the spay fee, I am certain that any human society, RSPCA
assistance, would be happy to help out where they could?( Or, I would like to
think so, anyway?!!) It can't possibly cost that much, as long as it is
planned carefully?


>That's commendable, but what is wrong with the idea of trapping this
>animal and getting her spayed? What if she comes around with a litter of
>kittens? Will you feed them all? Eventually you might be faced with a
>Malthusian problem.

Charlie, I had to search for what the meaning of this word meant (Malthusian)


Now that I understand, I agree with you. There is no favour to be gained in
feeding an animal, unless you are prepared to follow the project all the way
through. As long as she spays her, then this is a success story. However, if
she doesn't, then it will generate a whole new set of problems, for several
people having to pick up the pieces (i.e: having to euthanize the kittens,
unless they can all be homed), which is rather unlikely & @ the expense of
shelter cats I guess), &, if the mother doesn't trust humans. With no trust
from the mother, it is unlikely that the kitties would ever be socialised, &
you end up with another litter of kittens, as well as the mother who all need
attending to, one way or another....

This is a difficult one, but my advice is the same as yours, on balance.

I hope that you try to do this Skye?
I felt the same way that you do now, but I managed it, so I have every faith
that you can too.
Good Luck,
Sheelagh >"o"<

--
Sheelagh >"o"<

Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200708/1

sheelagh via CatKB.com
August 16th 07, 02:19 AM
Wendy wrote:
>> OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I
>> used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our
>[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> Sheelagh >"o"<
>> ( Nice to see you too;o)
>
>It's the God's honest truth. I was shocked when the volunteer came back and
>told us of the problem she had getting the poor thing put out of it's
>misery. It was bent over backwards seizing and covered it what looked like
>maggots and the SPCA couldn't help us. The volunteer finally took it to a
>private vet who was still open and they euthanized the kitten for us.
>
>We're smack dab in the middle of kitten season here and I guess everyone is
>filled up with cats. There is a shelter in Philadelphia that has been giving
>them away for a dollar just so they don't have to euthanize. The sad thing
>is that many of these $1 cats will be returned or dumped back on the street
>and have to be dealt with later. Maybe there will be more room then though -
>or at least one can hope.
>
>I'm back up to 17 fosters myself. Two of them are bottle feeders that were
>found outside with no mom. There were four kittens to start with but the one
>was dead when it arrived at the vets office and they euthanized the other
>because it was so sick. I was at the vet's picking up one of my fosters (the
>mother of 6 kittens born on Father's Day) and they asked if I could take the
>surviving two.
>
>W

It's the God's honest truth. I was shocked when the volunteer came back and
told us of the problem she had getting the poor thing put out of it's
misery. It was bent over backwards seizing and covered it what looked like
maggots and the SPCA couldn't help us. The volunteer finally took it to a
private vet who was still open and they euthanized the kitten for us.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I believe every word you said Wendy. I just found it morbidly &
disgustingly unfair, dreadful & sickening really. Each time that I hear a
story like this, it makes me feel so angry with humans, because ultimately,
it is our job to make sure that this doesn't happen. so, to hear that the
volunteer actually understood what you were saying, but still had no room for
the poor little thing, disgusts me!
How terribly sad, wasn't it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
We're smack dab in the middle of kitten season here and I guess everyone is
filled up with cats. There is a shelter in Philadelphia that has been giving
them away for a dollar just so they don't have to euthanize. The sad thing
is that many of these $1 cats will be returned or dumped back on the street
and have to be dealt with later. Maybe there will be more room then though -
or at least one can hope.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This news is also terrible too. To have to be forced into selling a kitten
for a $1 (which = 50pence here- nothing. A bar of chocolate costs the same
price!!!), speaks volumes in how desperate they all are...And, as you rightly
point out, most of them will either throw them out on the street because they
all to ashamed or embarrassed to take them back to the shelter & admit that
things haven't worked out they way they planned it, or simply can't be
bothered with the problem.. And so the cycles starts over once more :o(

I hope you are right about there being more hope. I feel so ashamed with
humans sometimes!??

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm back up to 17 fosters myself. Two of them are bottle feeders that were
found outside with no mom. There were four kittens to start with but the one
was dead when it arrived at the vets office and they euthanized the other
because it was so sick. I was at the vet's picking up one of my fosters (the
mother of 6 kittens born on Father's Day) and they asked if I could take the
surviving two.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I can only say that I commend you Wendy.
In the last 3 months, I have only had 9 cats & kittens & that was hard work,
so I realise how much you must have put in to this project. Well done! If
only there were other Foster mothers like you out there. I do one day @ my
local shelter a wee, anything that the CPL bring to me, & also a bit of work
for Ragdoll Rescue UK too. In fact I think it was you that advised me that If
I really missed the kitten bit of breeding, then I should try doing rescue
instead. It was one of the best pieces of advice I ever took on board &
followed up. It brings me great satisfaction & I enjoy it n end on the whole.
Of course it has it's bad moments, but what doesn't these days?.

Just out of interest, how long to the shop keep their cats before calling you
to say that they need for you to take them away ? Also, how did you get on
with the 2 kittens that you asked for @ the shop as well, if you don't mind?

Thanks, & good for you too,
Sheelagh >"o"<

--
Sheelagh >"o"<

Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200708/1

Upscale
August 16th 07, 09:12 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message news:S9idnSXf49-
> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend
we
> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared
> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA
to
> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told
her
> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room.

I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force
yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great
distress, you knew it had to be put down and you couldn't immediately find a
vet to do it. All the time and effort you spent trying to do the right thing
and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and
it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless. That takes
real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care
for.

I had to do that once to a dog I owned after she got run over by a car. The
way her guts were splayed out on the road and she was still alive yelping in
agony, all I could do was run to get a tire iron and crush her skull. Then I
buried her in my backyard garden. I cried for over a week and it was the
hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I knew it was the right thing to do.

I still cry sometimes when I think of what I had to do, but I know that
under the same circumstances, I'd do it again. Putting aside society's laws
for a moment, if the situation was reversed, I'd want someone to do the same
thing for me. That was the only way I could rationalize myself into doing
what I knew I had to do.

Ted Davis[_2_]
August 16th 07, 01:55 PM
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:12:49 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>
> I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force
> yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great
> distress, you knew it had to be put down and you couldn't immediately find a
> vet to do it. All the time and effort you spent trying to do the right thing
> and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and
> it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless. That takes
> real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care
> for.

It's also illegal in many areas: it's considered animal cruelty for an
unapproved person to use an unapproved method to end the distress of a
suffering animal. It *is* however allowed to *cause* suffering of certain
species during hunting season, provided you have a license (you don't have
to be competent to kill quickly so long as you have the license).

--
T.E.D. )

Upscale
August 16th 07, 02:17 PM
"Ted Davis" > wrote in message
>
> It's also illegal in many areas: it's considered animal cruelty for an
> unapproved person to use an unapproved method to end the distress of a
> suffering animal.

Of course it's illegal, probably always will be in North America, but that's
not the point as far as I'm concerned. When I put my dog down, it wouldn't
have mattered if there were 20 people there threatening to have me charged,
it was a matter of my own peace of mind. And if I'd had to pay some fine or
serve some type of incarceration, that wouldn't have mattered much either.
It was just a matter of my doing what I felt was needed to be done right
away.

cindys
August 16th 07, 03:40 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
> "Wendy" > wrote in message news:S9idnSXf49-
>> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend
> we
>> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It
>> appeared
>> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
>> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA
> to
>> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told
> her
>> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room.
>
> I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force
> yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great
> distress, you knew it had to be put down and you couldn't immediately find
> a
> vet to do it. All the time and effort you spent trying to do the right
> thing
> and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and
> it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless.
---------
I don't necessarily dispute your premise of putting an animal out of its
misery yourself. My husband once had no choice but to do this for a baby
bird with a broken neck who had fallen out of its nest. He chopped off its
head with a hoe. Death was instant. But drowning the kitten would not be the
least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up with
water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible way
for the kitten to die.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



>That takes
> real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care
> for.
>
> I had to do that once to a dog I owned after she got run over by a car.
> The
> way her guts were splayed out on the road and she was still alive yelping
> in
> agony, all I could do was run to get a tire iron and crush her skull. Then
> I
> buried her in my backyard garden. I cried for over a week and it was the
> hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I knew it was the right thing to
> do.
>
> I still cry sometimes when I think of what I had to do, but I know that
> under the same circumstances, I'd do it again. Putting aside society's
> laws
> for a moment, if the situation was reversed, I'd want someone to do the
> same
> thing for me. That was the only way I could rationalize myself into doing
> what I knew I had to do.
>
>

Upscale
August 16th 07, 04:52 PM
"cindys" > wrote in message
> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up
with
> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible way
> for the kitten to die.

Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become unconscious
against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for a
vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method I'd
prefer to die.

Charlie Wilkes
August 16th 07, 07:41 PM
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:52:55 -0400, Upscale wrote:

> "cindys" > wrote in message
>> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up
> with
>> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible
>> way for the kitten to die.
>
> Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become
> unconscious against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was
> looking for a vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know
> which method I'd prefer to die.

Why do you think the U.S. gov't uses simulated drowning to extract
information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it
work? Answer -- because it's painful and terrifying.

Charlie

Dan Espen
August 16th 07, 08:30 PM
Charlie Wilkes > writes:

> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:52:55 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>
>> "cindys" > wrote in message
>>> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up
>> with
>>> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible
>>> way for the kitten to die.
>>
>> Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become
>> unconscious against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was
>> looking for a vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know
>> which method I'd prefer to die.
>
> Why do you think the U.S. gov't uses simulated drowning to extract
> information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it
> work? Answer -- because it's painful and terrifying.

Can't see how water boarding could that be painful.
Prisoner holds his breath, if he inhales, they have a problem.
I don't believe they want that.

It's scary thats for sure and I'm not a torture advocate.

I like to swim as far as I can under water,
as you run out of air, panic sets in.

In the cat's case, sure the cat is scared.
It's going to inhale sooner or later but I don't
believe the water in the lungs is all that painful.
Yes, I've breathed in water, it hurts but it's not the
worst pain I've ever had.
It's just water. By the time it inhales it's going to
be light headed anyway. Death follows soon after.

No I don't want to try it.

When you have a cat with it's guts hanging out,
what's more painful, the trip to the vet or
5 minutes under water?

I thought it was common practice to put down dogs
thru suffocation?

Nasty subject anyway...

Charlie Wilkes
August 16th 07, 09:02 PM
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:30:48 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>
> When you have a cat with it's guts hanging out, what's more painful, the
> trip to the vet or 5 minutes under water?

I don't know. If I had to euthenize a cat without drugs, my first choice
would be to shoot it in the back of the head, using a rifle or handgun,
and my second choice would be to strangle it with a cord.

Charlie

Professor
August 16th 07, 09:02 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:52:55 -0400, Upscale wrote:
> Why do you think the U.S. gov't uses simulated drowning to extract
> information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it
> work? Answer -- because it's painful and terrifying.
>
> Charlie

The government currently uses tactics which violate the Geneva convention
because we have a despicable worm as President who has brought shame on the
office and on the nation as a whole. If anyone should be tortured it is
Bush, but lets not stray off the subject of cats.

Wendy
August 16th 07, 09:53 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
>> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up
> with
>> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible
>> way
>> for the kitten to die.
>
> Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become unconscious
> against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for a
> vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method I'd
> prefer to die.
>
>

It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.

W

William Graham
August 16th 07, 10:22 PM
"Professor" > wrote in message
news:v32xi.7970$%[email protected]
> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:52:55 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>> Why do you think the U.S. gov't uses simulated drowning to extract
>> information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it
>> work? Answer -- because it's painful and terrifying.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> The government currently uses tactics which violate the Geneva convention
> because we have a despicable worm as President who has brought shame on
> the office and on the nation as a whole. If anyone should be tortured it
> is Bush, but lets not stray off the subject of cats.
>
Errr.....The government was doing things like that long before Bush, but if
you must Bush-bash, then be my guest. (It's not like you're alone....:^)

Sheelagh >o
August 16th 07, 10:52 PM
On 16 Aug, 21:53, "Wendy" > wrote:
> "Upscale" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > "cindys" > wrote in message
> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up
> > with
> >> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible
> >> way
> >> for the kitten to die.
>
> > Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become unconscious
> > against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for a
> > vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method I'd
> > prefer to die.
>
> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.
>
> W

> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.

I "know" that you did the right thing by that kitten Wendy, & so does
every other person who knows you on here. I find it very tacky that
others feel the need to pick over the fact that you did what was best
@ that time for the kitten concerned.

You have spent a long time helping kittens, cats & all manner of
rescues for several years, & during that time, you have saved untold
amount of cats, pregnant Queens & their litters, because of others
thoughtless attitudes towards spaying & neutering their own cats. It's
sad that someone feels that they have the right to come along & nit
pick about what you did for that one kitten, without recognising the
years that you have spent devoting your life towards saving cats &
homing the most needy ( & yes, that includes me whilst I continued to
breed cats too!!)

If I can see this, then so can they too- I feel/ think this is
selective & downright inventive. No hours, were mentioned @ all in
your passage! Some are selectively choosing to see what they want to,
rather than the facts in front of them.

I say well done to you for doing what you could @ the time. It was no
easy task & I'm certain that you found no happiness in what you had to
do to put the poor mite out of it's misery. You should be thanked for
what you had to do, not criticised.

All I can see here is speculation, about what they "might/ or should"
have done.
I only agree with one of them, & only then if I had no other choice.
Lets thank the powers that be that they were not faced with your
agonising choices, & the poor mite wasn't in their care @ the time.
You did what you had to in as short as time as was reasonably
possible. You have my utter respect, it was no easy thing to have to
handle, & I am so sorry that you were faced with that situation. It
was a terrible position to find yourself in.
Best Wishes,
Sheelagh>"o"<

William Graham
August 16th 07, 11:32 PM
"Sheelagh >o<" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 16 Aug, 21:53, "Wendy" > wrote:
>> "Upscale" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > "cindys" > wrote in message
>> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill
>> >> up
>> > with
>> >> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible
>> >> way
>> >> for the kitten to die.
>>
>> > Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become
>> > unconscious
>> > against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for
>> > a
>> > vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method
>> > I'd
>> > prefer to die.
>>
>> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.
>>
>> W
>
>> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.
>
> I "know" that you did the right thing by that kitten Wendy, & so does
> every other person who knows you on here. I find it very tacky that
> others feel the need to pick over the fact that you did what was best
> @ that time for the kitten concerned.
>
> You have spent a long time helping kittens, cats & all manner of
> rescues for several years, & during that time, you have saved untold
> amount of cats, pregnant Queens & their litters, because of others
> thoughtless attitudes towards spaying & neutering their own cats. It's
> sad that someone feels that they have the right to come along & nit
> pick about what you did for that one kitten, without recognising the
> years that you have spent devoting your life towards saving cats &
> homing the most needy ( & yes, that includes me whilst I continued to
> breed cats too!!)
>
> If I can see this, then so can they too- I feel/ think this is
> selective & downright inventive. No hours, were mentioned @ all in
> your passage! Some are selectively choosing to see what they want to,
> rather than the facts in front of them.
>
> I say well done to you for doing what you could @ the time. It was no
> easy task & I'm certain that you found no happiness in what you had to
> do to put the poor mite out of it's misery. You should be thanked for
> what you had to do, not criticised.
>
> All I can see here is speculation, about what they "might/ or should"
> have done.
> I only agree with one of them, & only then if I had no other choice.
> Lets thank the powers that be that they were not faced with your
> agonising choices, & the poor mite wasn't in their care @ the time.
> You did what you had to in as short as time as was reasonably
> possible. You have my utter respect, it was no easy thing to have to
> handle, & I am so sorry that you were faced with that situation. It
> was a terrible position to find yourself in.
> Best Wishes,
> Sheelagh>"o"<
>
This is always the hardest decision for someone to make....Our desire to
wait and see if the cat recovers is so great, that it is very hard to, "give
it up" and decide to put it down.....At such times, it is usually best to go
with the veterinarians decision, because they don't have the emotional
involvement that you are burdened with......

cindys
August 17th 07, 06:45 AM
"Sheelagh >o<" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 16 Aug, 21:53, "Wendy" > wrote:
>> "Upscale" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > "cindys" > wrote in message
>> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill
>> >> up
>> > with
>> >> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible
>> >> way
>> >> for the kitten to die.
>>
>> > Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become
>> > unconscious
>> > against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for
>> > a
>> > vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method
>> > I'd
>> > prefer to die.
>>
>> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.
>>
>> W
>
>> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.
>
> I "know" that you did the right thing by that kitten Wendy, & so does
> every other person who knows you on here. I find it very tacky that
> others feel the need to pick over the fact that you did what was best
> @ that time for the kitten concerned.
----------
For the record, I hope my remarks were not taken to be a criticism of Wendy.
They were not intended to be, and I would have done the same thing as she
did in her shoes. When my husband put the baby bird out of its misery, it
was only because the vet's office was already closed, and we didn't want the
bird to suffer late into the night only to have to die on its own. Even
though death (using the hoe) was nearly instantaneous, my husband said it
was a horrible experience, and he would never want to repeat it.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



>
> You have spent a long time helping kittens, cats & all manner of
> rescues for several years, & during that time, you have saved untold
> amount of cats, pregnant Queens & their litters, because of others
> thoughtless attitudes towards spaying & neutering their own cats. It's
> sad that someone feels that they have the right to come along & nit
> pick about what you did for that one kitten, without recognising the
> years that you have spent devoting your life towards saving cats &
> homing the most needy ( & yes, that includes me whilst I continued to
> breed cats too!!)
>
> If I can see this, then so can they too- I feel/ think this is
> selective & downright inventive. No hours, were mentioned @ all in
> your passage! Some are selectively choosing to see what they want to,
> rather than the facts in front of them.
>
> I say well done to you for doing what you could @ the time. It was no
> easy task & I'm certain that you found no happiness in what you had to
> do to put the poor mite out of it's misery. You should be thanked for
> what you had to do, not criticised.
>
> All I can see here is speculation, about what they "might/ or should"
> have done.
> I only agree with one of them, & only then if I had no other choice.
> Lets thank the powers that be that they were not faced with your
> agonising choices, & the poor mite wasn't in their care @ the time.
> You did what you had to in as short as time as was reasonably
> possible. You have my utter respect, it was no easy thing to have to
> handle, & I am so sorry that you were faced with that situation. It
> was a terrible position to find yourself in.
> Best Wishes,
> Sheelagh>"o"<
>

Charlie Wilkes
August 17th 07, 07:05 AM
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:45:11 -0400, cindys wrote:

> For the record, I hope my remarks were not taken to be a criticism of
> Wendy. They were not intended to be, and I would have done the same
> thing as she did in her shoes. When my husband put the baby bird out of
> its misery, it was only because the vet's office was already closed, and
> we didn't want the bird to suffer late into the night only to have to
> die on its own. Even though death (using the hoe) was nearly
> instantaneous, my husband said it was a horrible experience, and he
> would never want to repeat it. Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

I live on an island where the vet is either a boat ride or a plane ride
away, and there have been a couple of times when I have had to put
animals down. Strangulation (for birds) or a bullet (for larger animals)
are quick and painless for the animal. What your husband did with the
hoe was also a humane technique.

Drowning is a chicken**** way to get rid of cats. People do it out
here. One time I was at a marina, and I saw a couple of guys walking
down the dock with a cat in a carrier. It was a nice looking cat. I
figured it was their pet and they were getting aboard a boat. I went
into town and did my errands, and when I got back, I tossed something in
the dumpster and there was the soaked body of this poor animal. If I'd
known what those assholes were up to, I'd have offered to take the cat.

Charlie

Upscale
August 17th 07, 07:36 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>
> Drowning is a chicken**** way to get rid of cats. People do it out
> here.

Really? As compared to what, something like bashing an animals head in with
a shovel? You risk missing the mark or not hitting it properly in one blow
causing even more pain. While a gun is the quickest way, your living on an
island makes using a gun a lot easier to use than discharging one in a
populated area where the noise can cause repercussions from neighbours and
ultimately the police. As well, the majority of people do not own a gun, not
even close.

Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on unconsciousness
within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a big breath like a
human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than 10 seconds without
preparing with lungs full of air to start. The struggling is an instinctive
reaction, not a voluntary one. An injured animal that needs to be euthanized
is already in terror to the extreme. It can't become any worse, all that
needs to be done is to stop that terror as fast as possible.

Debate it all you want, but do a little investigation first (like research )
before you dismiss it due to lack knowledge.

sheelagh via CatKB.com
August 17th 07, 12:08 PM
cindys wrote:
>>> > "cindys" > wrote in message
>>> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill
>[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> others feel the need to pick over the fact that you did what was best
>> @ that time for the kitten concerned.
>----------
>For the record, I hope my remarks were not taken to be a criticism of Wendy.
>They were not intended to be, and I would have done the same thing as she
>did in her shoes. When my husband put the baby bird out of its misery, it
>was only because the vet's office was already closed, and we didn't want the
>bird to suffer late into the night only to have to die on its own. Even
>though death (using the hoe) was nearly instantaneous, my husband said it
>was a horrible experience, and he would never want to repeat it.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
>> You have spent a long time helping kittens, cats & all manner of
>> rescues for several years, & during that time, you have saved untold
>[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>> Best Wishes,
>> Sheelagh>"o"<


Oh Cindy, I didn't think that at all. I was merely making the point that I
didn't agree with the poster who insinuated that Wendy wasted time leaving
the kitten in pain. They obviously didn't know her very well, because If they
had, they would never have made that tasteless hurtful comment about Wendy
wasting precious time. She would never do that! I would have done exactly the
same thing too.

I think most of us have been faced with a horrible experience like this,
whether it be a bird falling out of a nest, to a cat getting run over. You
assess the situation, then make your choice, & go with it in the fastest
possible way.

The only person that I agreed with actually, was Charlie. Unfortunately in
the UK, we are not allowed to carry guns without a speacial licence to ( And
I don't want to go into another debate about that either!), I would have to
rush the animal down to a farm near by & get the game keeper to do this for
me. I am neither practised in using a gun, or have the guts to do it in case
I made a mistake & left the poor animal in even more pain. I admit this
freely.

I have read Upscale's comment, but I don't have to agree with it. A few years
back, it was fairly common practise for people to drown kittens in the UK. (
I mean going back 30+ years or so) I can remember my grandfather killing the
kittens on his farm. Thinking back, this is probably what put me off the idea,
& why I feel that I can't agree with it either. Like the silence of the lambs,
I have never forgotten the struggle of those kittens, or the needless loss of
life when the cat could easily have been spayed. Because we lived abroad, I
only ever saw him do it that once, but that was enough to last me a lifetime.
Everyone has what they feel is an acceptable opinion, & none of us will ever
agree with the other's method. I think the best thing that we can do here, is
to respect the others opinion, & agree to disagree.

<Hark @ me, Lol>

Last week, we lost a old regular to the feeding bowl. I can only thank the
powers that be, that he was killed outright, & that I was not faced with the
dreadful situation that poor Wendy found herself in. I hold admiration for
all the good things she has done for cats over the years, including putting
this kitten out of it's misery.

Sheelagh>"o"<

--
Sheelagh >"o"<

Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Charlie Wilkes
August 17th 07, 08:08 PM
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:36:11 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>
> Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on
> unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a
> big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than 10
> seconds

What is your source for this information? I don't believe it. A
neighbor of mine had a problem with feral cats nesting under his deck,
and he drowned some of them years ago. He said they would struggle for a
good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
shooting them instead.

Charlie

Sheelagh >o
August 17th 07, 08:33 PM
On 17 Aug, 20:08, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:36:11 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>
> > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on
> > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a
> > big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than 10
> > seconds
>
> What is your source for this information? I don't believe it. A
> neighbor of mine had a problem with feral cats nesting under his deck,
> and he drowned some of them years ago. He said they would struggle for a
> good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
> shooting them instead.
>
> Charlie

This would concur with what I witnessed. Slightly less in pure fact.
They were only kittens, & he had to find & catch them first too
It was dreadful & something I never wish to see or support again!! :o(
Sheelagh >"o"<

Sherry
August 18th 07, 05:08 AM
On Aug 17, 2:08 pm, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:36:11 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>
> > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on
> > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a
> > big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than 10
> > seconds
>
> What is your source for this information? I don't believe it. A
> neighbor of mine had a problem with feral cats nesting under his deck,
> and he drowned some of them years ago. He said they would struggle for a
> good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
> shooting them instead.
>
> Charlie

I have a hard time believing it too. It came to our attention that a
animal control in a neighboring
town was trapping skunks, and drowning them in the traps. I lobbied
hard over this. I don't care if
they *are* skunks, I thought it was a terrible, frightening, and
inhumane way to die.

Sherry

Upscale
August 18th 07, 05:16 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
> shooting them instead.

Unconsciousness happens in a few seconds, but yes the involuntary struggles
or twitches can take longer. The point is that the animal would be
unconscious and not feeling any pain. Isn't that the point of euthanasia in
any form, to curtail pain?

Charlie Wilkes
August 18th 07, 07:52 PM
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:16:10 -0400, Upscale wrote:

> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>> good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
>> shooting them instead.
>
> Unconsciousness happens in a few seconds, but yes the involuntary
> struggles or twitches can take longer. The point is that the animal
> would be unconscious and not feeling any pain. Isn't that the point of
> euthanasia in any form, to curtail pain?

What is the source of your information?

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
August 18th 07, 11:43 PM
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:08:57 -0700, Sherry wrote:

> On Aug 17, 2:08 pm, Charlie Wilkes >
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:36:11 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>>
>> > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on
>> > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take
>> > a big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than
>> > 10 seconds
>>
>> What is your source for this information? I don't believe it. A
>> neighbor of mine had a problem with feral cats nesting under his deck,
>> and he drowned some of them years ago. He said they would struggle for
>> a good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
>> shooting them instead.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> I have a hard time believing it too. It came to our attention that a
> animal control in a neighboring
> town was trapping skunks, and drowning them in the traps. I lobbied hard
> over this. I don't care if
> they *are* skunks, I thought it was a terrible, frightening, and
> inhumane way to die.
>
> Sherry

Mark Twain said this: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into
trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

It's easy enough to research topics like this on the web and find out
what the experts think. The American Veterinary Medical Association's
Guidelines on Euthanasia (June 2007) can be found here:

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods
of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia
and is inhumane."

Charlie

Dan Espen
August 19th 07, 12:59 AM
Charlie Wilkes > writes:

> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:08:57 -0700, Sherry wrote:
>
>> On Aug 17, 2:08 pm, Charlie Wilkes >
>> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:36:11 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>>>
>>> > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on
>>> > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take
>>> > a big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than
>>> > 10 seconds
>>>
>>> What is your source for this information? I don't believe it. A
>>> neighbor of mine had a problem with feral cats nesting under his deck,
>>> and he drowned some of them years ago. He said they would struggle for
>>> a good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
>>> shooting them instead.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> I have a hard time believing it too. It came to our attention that a
>> animal control in a neighboring
>> town was trapping skunks, and drowning them in the traps. I lobbied hard
>> over this. I don't care if
>> they *are* skunks, I thought it was a terrible, frightening, and
>> inhumane way to die.
>>
>> Sherry
>
> Mark Twain said this: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into
> trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
>
> It's easy enough to research topics like this on the web and find out
> what the experts think. The American Veterinary Medical Association's
> Guidelines on Euthanasia (June 2007) can be found here:
>
> http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf
>
> Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods
> of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia
> and is inhumane."

Note that those are guidelines for vets.

In a veterinary context there are many methods available that bring
on sudden death or allow for the animal to be sedated first.

Upscale
August 19th 07, 08:41 AM
"Dan Espen" > wrote in message
> > Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods
> > of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia
> > and is inhumane."
>
> Note that those are guidelines for vets.
>
> In a veterinary context there are many methods available that bring
> on sudden death or allow for the animal to be sedated first.

Thank you. I never said that there weren't easier and more acceptable
methods of euthanasia. All I was trying to get across was that when an
animal was in extreme agony and distress and the more accepted methods of
putting an animal down were not immediately available, then I consider it
more humane to use a fairly quick method to kill the animal. Despite the
squeamishness of some of the respondents in this conversation, drowning is a
relatively quick method.

As to the person that was requesting my source for this information, my
source works in the veterinary industry, but has absolutely no intent on
becoming personally involved in this conversation. If that's not good enough
for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present
your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of
course)

Sheelagh >o
August 19th 07, 01:22 PM
On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" > wrote:
> "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
> > > Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods
> > > of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia
> > > and is inhumane."
>
> > Note that those are guidelines for vets.
>
> > In a veterinary context there are many methods available that bring
> > on sudden death or allow for the animal to be sedated first.
>
> Thank you. I never said that there weren't easier and more acceptable
> methods of euthanasia. All I was trying to get across was that when an
> animal was in extreme agony and distress and the more accepted methods of
> putting an animal down were not immediately available, then I consider it
> more humane to use a fairly quick method to kill the animal. Despite the
> squeamishness of some of the respondents in this conversation, drowning is a
> relatively quick method.
>
> As to the person that was requesting my source for this information, my
> source works in the veterinary industry, but has absolutely no intent on
> becoming personally involved in this conversation. If that's not good enough
> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present
> your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of
> course)

If that's not good enough
> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present
> your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of
> course)

I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
trouble of producing.

It would seem that I am one of those too squeamish to stick a kittens
head in a bucket of water, & remain holding it there until the poor
creatures struggles ceased.

Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the
veterinary surgeons findings.
Sheelagh>"o"<

Upscale
August 19th 07, 02:52 PM
"Sheelagh >o<" > wrote in message
>
> I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
> the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
> trouble of producing.

And if *you* had read further, you'd have seen Dan mention that those
findings were for vets. Since we're not vets, that doesn't leave the much
easier option of a sedative and then a shot to kill the kitten.

> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
> distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the
> veterinary surgeons findings.

Then you'd be actively forcing the kitten to live and suffer a longer period
until you found some method that was less squeamish for you to use.
Personally, I think that's pretty selfish.

Tell me Sheelagh, if you had your guts ripped out and you were screaming in
agony with nothing left for you to scream for quite a few minutes more until
you slowly bled to death, would you accept being suffocated into
unconsciousness within several seconds? I don't know about you, but I sure
would.

Upscale
August 19th 07, 03:23 PM
"Sheelagh >o<" > wrote in message >
> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
> distress.

In all honesty, I think we both have an animal's welfare at heart, just that
we might take different routes to do something about it. Say what you want,
I'm finished with this thread.

William Graham
August 19th 07, 04:39 PM
> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
> distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the
> veterinary surgeons findings.
> Sheelagh>"o"<
>

For what it's worth....(I have been following this thread) I am 72 years
old. (Yesterday was my birthday) When I was about 30, I drowned a mouse by
holding it under water. (We had an infestation of mice, and I caught this
one without a trap, so I drowned it.) That was 42 years ago.....I will never
forget it, and I have never drowned anything else since.

The point? - Just be advised that some of the things you might do when you
are 30 will not sit well with you when you are older, so think well before
you act.......

sheelagh via CatKB.com
August 19th 07, 07:39 PM
William Graham wrote:
>> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
>> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
>> distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the
>> veterinary surgeons findings.
>> Sheelagh>"o"<
>
>For what it's worth....(I have been following this thread) I am 72 years
>old. (Yesterday was my birthday) When I was about 30, I drowned a mouse by
>holding it under water. (We had an infestation of mice, and I caught this
>one without a trap, so I drowned it.) That was 42 years ago.....I will never
>forget it, and I have never drowned anything else since.
>
>The point? - Just be advised that some of the things you might do when you
>are 30 will not sit well with you when you are older, so think well before
>you act.......


Many happy returns to you William, & I hope that you had a very happy
birthday?

I have no intention of continuing an argument here either. I just felt it was
a method I didn't feel comfortable with, *personally*.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you had to say though William.
You do see things differently as you get older.

I can never forget the sight of what I saw, & it doesn't get easier as the
years pass. It gets harder to understand. Why would one wait for kittens to
get to around 6 weeks of age, before even considering dealing with the issue?
I just felt it was barbaric, because of the sight of what I saw.

I guess, Sadly I will never never get to the answer to that one.
Sheelagh >"o"<

--
Sheelagh >"o"<

Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Charlie Wilkes
August 19th 07, 08:28 PM
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:22:08 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:

> On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" > wrote:
>
> If that's not good enough
>> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and
>> present your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that
>> information of course)
>
> I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
> the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
> trouble of producing.

I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source
among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law
in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a
couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
their cat in this manner... www.ajnews.com

Charlie

Sheelagh >o
August 20th 07, 02:11 PM
On 19 Aug, 20:28, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:22:08 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:
> > On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" > wrote:
>
> > If that's not good enough
> >> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and
> >> present your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that
> >> information of course)
>
> > I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
> > the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
> > trouble of producing.
>
> I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source
> among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law
> in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a
> couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
> their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com
>
> Charlie

and I ran across a news article about a
> couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
> their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com

It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate
it.
Is it on a different page Charlie?
Sheelagh>"o"<

Upscale
August 20th 07, 02:50 PM
"Sheelagh >o<" > wrote in message
> >
> > I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source
> > among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law
> > in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a
> > couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
> > their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com

> It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate
> it.
> Is it on a different page Charlie?
> Sheelagh>"o"<

I have one more comment on this. These examples of euthanizing and arrests
and all that stuff. Were these cats severely injured when they were drowned
or were they for the most part healthy cats? That's what we're talking
about, euthanizing a severely injured cat. If someone killed a cat for
another reason, then that has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.
*When* you find that link, research under what circumstances these cats were
euthanized. *THEN* go and find me examples of someone being convicted for
drowning a severely injured kitty. Until you can do that, you or Charlie or
whoever wants to comment have no rebuttal to what I've been talking about.

Charlie Wilkes
August 20th 07, 08:08 PM
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:11:35 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:

> On 19 Aug, 20:28, Charlie Wilkes >
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:22:08 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:
>> > On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" > wrote:
>>
>> > If that's not good enough
>> >> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and
>> >> present your information to the contrary. (with your sources for
>> >> that information of course)
>>
>> > I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you
>> > follow the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to
>> > the trouble of producing.
>>
>> I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative
>> source among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against
>> the law in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article
>> about a couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for
>> "euthanizing" their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com
>>
>> Charlie
>
> and I ran across a news article about a
>> couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for
>> "euthanizing" their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com
>
> It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate it.
> Is it on a different page Charlie?
> Sheelagh>"o"<

They changed the content on that site. Here is another link:
http://tinyurl.com/37lfcs

Charlie

sheelagh via CatKB.com
August 20th 07, 08:19 PM
Upscale wrote:
>"Sheelagh >o<" > wrote in message
>
>> > I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source
>> > among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law
>> > in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a
>> > couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
>> > their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com
>
>> It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate
>> it.
>> Is it on a different page Charlie?
>> Sheelagh>"o"<
>
>I have one more comment on this. These examples of euthanizing and arrests
>and all that stuff. Were these cats severely injured when they were drowned
>or were they for the most part healthy cats? That's what we're talking
>about, euthanizing a severely injured cat. If someone killed a cat for
>another reason, then that has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.
>*When* you find that link, research under what circumstances these cats were
>euthanized. *THEN* go and find me examples of someone being convicted for
>drowning a severely injured kitty. Until you can do that, you or Charlie or
>whoever wants to comment have no rebuttal to what I've been talking about.

I have no quarrel with you @ all. Initially, my response was merely to advise
you that Wendy has been involved with rescue work for many years, & IMHO, you
couldn't possibly criticize her for delaying the quick relief of death to
stop the kitten's suffering, because she would never do that. I know that she
released that kitten from it's misery as soon as we reasonably possible.
Someone who goes to the trouble of caring for abused animals, is hardly
likely to cause further hardship to an already sad case of unreasonable
misery

The debate about whether or not drowning is a quick mercy killing however, is
open to debate. It is not a criticism of your opinion, because everyone is
entitled to have their own opinion, though I wouldn't personally agree with
you. I gave my personal reason's as noted in this thread. My grand father
drowned some kittens on his farm, & I happened to witness it & found it
profoundly distressing, "personally".

I think that Charlie was simply bringing another dimension to the thread by
notifying the group that in some states in the USA, it is actually a crime(
Felony?) to drown a cat or kitten, whatever the circumstances, which I didn't
know until he advised us. I have since researched the same subject out of
personal interest, & I am glad to find that it is also the case in the UK too.


The information that you are asking for, is actually provided for you in the
link Charlie produced in appendix 4; *this is in the case of a mercy killing*,
as you asked for.

I agree with you, this thread has the potential to lead to an area that I
have no wish to become entangled in. It is an emotive subject, so bound to
produce feelings that are extreme. This will be my final post too. Sometimes
it is better to agree to disagree, than it is to shout so that your voice is
heard. That, I feel, is unseemly & unnecessary here.

Sheelagh>"o"<

--
Sheelagh >"o"<

Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200708/1