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View Full Version : Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease (FLUTD) treatment??


CatMan07
August 26th 07, 09:55 PM
My cat seems to have flutd. Howell says to acidify the urine, give the
cat ammonium chloride. Anyone have any ideas on how to use that? I
imagine I could add it to the drinking water. The taste might put him
off though. Adding it to fish might be better, as messing with his
water sounds like a really BAD idea, under the circumstances. He is
getting better as I speak as his urine output is increasing. His last
one was approximately the size of a ping-pong ball.
CatMan

---MIKE---
August 26th 07, 11:36 PM
Get your cat on a canned food diet. This will provide the moisture
needed to prevent crystal formation. You may say that the cat drinks
water-but that doesn't help to keep crystals from forming.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

CatMan07
August 27th 07, 06:20 AM
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:36:15 -0400,
(---MIKE---) wrote:

>Get your cat on a canned food diet. This will provide the moisture
>needed to prevent crystal formation. You may say that the cat drinks
>water-but that doesn't help to keep crystals from forming.

Thanks for the advice, Mike; and I will not be feeding dry food in the
future. The challenge for me at the moment remains: how do I acidify
my cats urine immediately in order to dissolve the struvate which may
be partially blocking his urethra? Do you have any ideas about that?
CatMan

>
>
> ---MIKE---
>>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
> >> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Phil P.
August 27th 07, 02:38 PM
"CatMan07" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:36:15 -0400,
> (---MIKE---) wrote:
>
> >Get your cat on a canned food diet. This will provide the moisture
> >needed to prevent crystal formation. You may say that the cat drinks
> >water-but that doesn't help to keep crystals from forming.
>
> Thanks for the advice, Mike; and I will not be feeding dry food in the
> future. The challenge for me at the moment remains: how do I acidify
> my cats urine immediately in order to dissolve the struvate which may
> be partially blocking his urethra? Do you have any ideas about that?
> CatMan

First off- are you *absolutely* sure your cat's uroliths are composed of
struvite and not calcium oxalate? Acidifying the urine in a cat that has
calcium oxalate uroliths or crystals is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
Years ago about 90% of the crystals found in cats was struvite. But since
the advent of so-called acidified urinary tract health diets the incidence
of struvite has decreased while the incidence of calcium oxalate has
increased ~10x to almost 50%. So, before you start manipulating your cat's
urine pH, make sure you know which way you have to go.

If your cat has struvite, speak to your vet about Hill's Prescription Diet
s/d. This diet is designed to dissolve struvite. You can also buy urine
acidifiers in tablet and gel form. However, you must be careful-
dl-methionine is toxic to cats in high doses. Don't give your cat a urine
acidifier if your feeding him a specially acidified diet. Calcium oxalate
uroliths cannot be dissolved and must be removed surgically if it doesn't
pass or can't be retrieved.

If the problem turns out to be struvite, you can reduce the risk of future
occurrences by feeding your cat a *meat-based* canned diet twice a day- 12
hours apart. The sulfur-containing amino acids and phospholipids in meat
acidify the urine, whereas diets containing a lot of plant materials
alkalinize it. Long periods between meals allows the cat's natural urine
acidity to return and dissolve any struvite that might have formed during
the postprandial alkaline tide.

In either case, a canned diet will help reduce the formation of both types
of crystals because it increases urine volume and dilutes the concentration
of crystal-forming particles in the urine making them easier to eliminate.
Canned diets also cause more frequent urination which helps eliminate
particles before they can aggregate or accrete into larger and larger
particles that eventually become crystals and uroliths.

Best of luck,

Phil

Cat Protector
August 27th 07, 08:29 PM
First you need to get that cat to a vet so it can be properly diagnosed and
tested. One of my cats has had a UTI and the last thing you want to do is
start experimenting except maybe in regards to the food. In order to treat
FLUTD your cat needs to be put on antibiotics and a good solid diet.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"CatMan07" > wrote in message
...
> My cat seems to have flutd. Howell says to acidify the urine, give the
> cat ammonium chloride. Anyone have any ideas on how to use that? I
> imagine I could add it to the drinking water. The taste might put him
> off though. Adding it to fish might be better, as messing with his
> water sounds like a really BAD idea, under the circumstances. He is
> getting better as I speak as his urine output is increasing. His last
> one was approximately the size of a ping-pong ball.
> CatMan
>

Rhonda[_3_]
August 28th 07, 04:13 AM
CatMan07 wrote:

> Thanks for the advice, Mike; and I will not be feeding dry food in the
> future. The challenge for me at the moment remains: how do I acidify
> my cats urine immediately in order to dissolve the struvate which may
> be partially blocking his urethra? Do you have any ideas about that?
> CatMan

Has the vet diagnosed this? Sometimes cats have bladder infections with
no crystals. Our cat at one time has crystals and an infection, the next
time -- just an infection.

What has the vet recommended as treatment?

Rhonda

CatMan07
August 28th 07, 04:35 AM
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:38:44 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"CatMan07" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:36:15 -0400,
>> (---MIKE---) wrote:
>>
>> >Get your cat on a canned food diet. This will provide the moisture
>> >needed to prevent crystal formation. You may say that the cat drinks
>> >water-but that doesn't help to keep crystals from forming.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, Mike; and I will not be feeding dry food in the
>> future. The challenge for me at the moment remains: how do I acidify
>> my cats urine immediately in order to dissolve the struvate which may
>> be partially blocking his urethra? Do you have any ideas about that?
>> CatMan

Thanks for your most thoughtful reply, Phil. I really appreciate it.

>
>First off- are you *absolutely* sure your cat's uroliths are composed of
>struvite and not calcium oxalate?

No, I'm not sure. In fact, I have my doubts as I've only fed my cat a
reduced magnesium dry cat food, with the occasional canned fish
treat..

> Acidifying the urine in a cat that has
>calcium oxalate uroliths or crystals is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
>Years ago about 90% of the crystals found in cats was struvite. But since
>the advent of so-called acidified urinary tract health diets the incidence
>of struvite has decreased while the incidence of calcium oxalate has
>increased ~10x to almost 50%.

Can it be that the "cure" is worse than the "disease"?

>So, before you start manipulating your cat's
>urine pH, make sure you know which way you have to go.
>
>If your cat has struvite, speak to your vet about Hill's Prescription Diet
>s/d. This diet is designed to dissolve struvite. You can also buy urine
>acidifiers in tablet and gel form. However, you must be careful-
>dl-methionine is toxic to cats in high doses. Don't give your cat a urine
>acidifier if your feeding him a specially acidified diet. Calcium oxalate
>uroliths cannot be dissolved and must be removed surgically if it doesn't
>pass or can't be retrieved.

Considering my cat's low Mg diet, there is a very good chance, as you
say, that the blockage may be calcium oxalate. As mucus is formed
around urethral crystals, I thought that an anti-inflammatory food
such as salmon might reduce the inflammation (AND the associated
swelling) and increase the possibility that the stone, of whatever
composition, will be more likely to pass naturally. The increase in
the volume of the urine is substantiating this idea, imho. The omega
3s in the salmon are also blood thinners, so I am not surprised that
there is some visible blood in the urine now.

>
>If the problem turns out to be struvite, you can reduce the risk of future
>occurrences by feeding your cat a *meat-based* canned diet twice a day- 12
>hours apart. The sulfur-containing amino acids and phospholipids in meat
>acidify the urine, whereas diets containing a lot of plant materials
>alkalinize it.

It sounds like a meat-based diet is just better all-round for cats. So
CORN, being the FIRST ingredient in my cat's dry food is BAD, and may
turn out to have been REALLY BAD!

>Long periods between meals allows the cat's natural urine
>acidity to return and dissolve any struvite that might have formed during
>the postprandial alkaline tide.

So would feeding him once a day be even better?

>In either case, a canned diet will help reduce the formation of both types
>of crystals because it increases urine volume and dilutes the concentration
>of crystal-forming particles in the urine making them easier to eliminate.

My cat really likes the juice from the canned salmon, even better than
the salmon itself! Go figure. So I've been adding some water to the
juice to get more fluids in him. That seems to be one of the things
that is working the best. Is there something I can add to my cat's
water that will make him drink more? I sure hope so.

>Canned diets also cause more frequent urination which helps eliminate
>particles before they can aggregate or accrete into larger and larger
>particles that eventually become crystals and uroliths.

Can you please explain how a canned-food diet increases urination? I
thought they put salt in dry food to encourage water consumption. Not
enough though, I guess.
CatMan

>
>Best of luck,
>
>Phil
>

Catman 07
August 28th 07, 01:54 PM
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:38:44 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"CatMan07" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:36:15 -0400,
>> (---MIKE---) wrote:
>>
>> >Get your cat on a canned food diet. This will provide the moisture
>> >needed to prevent crystal formation. You may say that the cat drinks
>> >water-but that doesn't help to keep crystals from forming.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, Mike; and I will not be feeding dry food in the
>> future. The challenge for me at the moment remains: how do I acidify
>> my cats urine immediately in order to dissolve the struvate which may
>> be partially blocking his urethra? Do you have any ideas about that?
>> CatMan
>
>First off- are you *absolutely* sure your cat's uroliths are composed of
>struvite and not calcium oxalate? Acidifying the urine in a cat that has
>calcium oxalate uroliths or crystals is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
>Years ago about 90% of the crystals found in cats was struvite. But since
>the advent of so-called acidified urinary tract health diets the incidence
>of struvite has decreased while the incidence of calcium oxalate has
>increased ~10x to almost 50%. So, before you start manipulating your cat's
>urine pH, make sure you know which way you have to go.
>
>If your cat has struvite, speak to your vet about Hill's Prescription Diet
>s/d. This diet is designed to dissolve struvite. You can also buy urine
>acidifiers in tablet and gel form. However, you must be careful-
>dl-methionine is toxic to cats in high doses. Don't give your cat a urine
>acidifier if your feeding him a specially acidified diet. Calcium oxalate
>uroliths cannot be dissolved and must be removed surgically if it doesn't
>pass or can't be retrieved.
>
>If the problem turns out to be struvite, you can reduce the risk of future
>occurrences by feeding your cat a *meat-based* canned diet twice a day- 12
>hours apart. The sulfur-containing amino acids and phospholipids in meat
>acidify the urine, whereas diets containing a lot of plant materials
>alkalinize it. Long periods between meals allows the cat's natural urine
>acidity to return and dissolve any struvite that might have formed during
>the postprandial alkaline tide.
>
>In either case, a canned diet will help reduce the formation of both types
>of crystals because it increases urine volume and dilutes the concentration
>of crystal-forming particles in the urine making them easier to eliminate.
>Canned diets also cause more frequent urination which helps eliminate
>particles before they can aggregate or accrete into larger and larger
>particles that eventually become crystals and uroliths.
>
>Best of luck,
>
>Phil
>
Thanks, Phil. I just read your article on dry vs wet cat food on your
maxshouse.com site. The dry cat food I"ve stopped using says it is
"approved by veterinarians". So WHY are none of the many facts you
present AGAINST dry cat food mentioned on the label?! If vets are
going to give their "Stamp of Approval" to a product they KNOW is
detrimental, then I must ask: What the hell is going on?! Are we
being intentionally MISLED?
Catman

Phil P.
August 30th 07, 04:18 PM
"Catman 07" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:38:44 GMT, "Phil P." >
> wrote:

> Thanks, Phil. I just read your article on dry vs wet cat food on your
> maxshouse.com site. The dry cat food I"ve stopped using says it is
> "approved by veterinarians". So WHY are none of the many facts you
> present AGAINST dry cat food mentioned on the label?!


Because if they were no one would buy the food.... Most of the knowledge
that most vets have about nutrition came from pet food company sales reps.


If vets are
> going to give their "Stamp of Approval" to a product they KNOW is
> detrimental, then I must ask: What the hell is going on?!

It only takes one or two vets to endorse a product to substantiate the claim
"Veterinarian Approved" or "Recommended by Veterinarians"-- and those vets
probably work for the company.



Are we
> being intentionally MISLED?

Ya think???

Phil P.
August 30th 07, 04:20 PM
"CatMan07" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:38:44 GMT, "Phil P." >
> wrote:
> >
> >First off- are you *absolutely* sure your cat's uroliths are composed of
> >struvite and not calcium oxalate?
>
> No, I'm not sure. In fact, I have my doubts as I've only fed my cat a
> reduced magnesium dry cat food, with the occasional canned fish
> treat..

Has your cat even been seen by a vet? or are you just guessing? If your cat
hasn't been seen by vet, I suggest you bring him in right away. Urinary
tract problems in male cats can become life threatening very quickly .

Your cat might not even have crystals/uroliths. Feline Interstitial
Cystitis can produce symptoms that resemble a partial urethral obstruction.
Inflammation in the bladder or urethra produces the same type of sensation
and urge to urinate as a full bladder whether the bladder is full or empty.
If the bladder is actually empty, the cat will appear to be blocked and
straining to urinate. If you start playing with his urine pH without knowing
what his problem is you might be create a more serious problem than he
actually has.


>
> > Acidifying the urine in a cat that has
> >calcium oxalate uroliths or crystals is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
> >Years ago about 90% of the crystals found in cats was struvite. But since
> >the advent of so-called acidified urinary tract health diets the
incidence
> >of struvite has decreased while the incidence of calcium oxalate has
> >increased ~10x to almost 50%.
>
> Can it be that the "cure" is worse than the "disease"?
>
> >So, before you start manipulating your cat's
> >urine pH, make sure you know which way you have to go.
> >
> >If your cat has struvite, speak to your vet about Hill's Prescription
Diet
> >s/d. This diet is designed to dissolve struvite. You can also buy urine
> >acidifiers in tablet and gel form. However, you must be careful-
> >dl-methionine is toxic to cats in high doses. Don't give your cat a urine
> >acidifier if your feeding him a specially acidified diet. Calcium oxalate
> >uroliths cannot be dissolved and must be removed surgically if it doesn't
> >pass or can't be retrieved.
>
> Considering my cat's low Mg diet, there is a very good chance, as you
> say, that the blockage may be calcium oxalate. As mucus is formed
> around urethral crystals,

First off- you're describing a urethral *plug* not a stone (urolith) or
crystal. A urethral plug
is something like fruit jello where the mucus would be like the gelatin and
the crystals would like the fruit. Uroliths don't contain mucus. Male cats
are more likely to develop urethral plugs than uroliths.

I thought that an anti-inflammatory food
> such as salmon might reduce the inflammation (AND the associated
> swelling) and increase the possibility that the stone, of whatever
> composition, will be more likely to pass naturally.


Possible but not probable.




The increase in
> the volume of the urine is substantiating this idea, imho. The omega
> 3s in the salmon are also blood thinners, so I am not surprised that
> there is some visible blood in the urine now.


The blood in the urine (hematuria) is more likely the result of small tears
in the bladder from straining to urinate or from irritations or lacerations
to
the bladder or urethral mucosa from crystals. Over distention of the bladder
can also produce small tears that will produce hematuria.


>
> >
> >If the problem turns out to be struvite, you can reduce the risk of
future
> >occurrences by feeding your cat a *meat-based* canned diet twice a day-
12
> >hours apart. The sulfur-containing amino acids and phospholipids in meat
> >acidify the urine, whereas diets containing a lot of plant materials
> >alkalinize it.
>
> It sounds like a meat-based diet is just better all-round for cats. So
> CORN, being the FIRST ingredient in my cat's dry food is BAD, and may
> turn out to have been REALLY BAD!
>
> >Long periods between meals allows the cat's natural urine
> >acidity to return and dissolve any struvite that might have formed during
> >the postprandial alkaline tide.
>
> So would feeding him once a day be even better?


No.

>
> >In either case, a canned diet will help reduce the formation of both
types
> >of crystals because it increases urine volume and dilutes the
concentration
> >of crystal-forming particles in the urine making them easier to
eliminate.
>
> My cat really likes the juice from the canned salmon, even better than
> the salmon itself! Go figure. So I've been adding some water to the
> juice to get more fluids in him. That seems to be one of the things
> that is working the best. Is there something I can add to my cat's
> water that will make him drink more? I sure hope so.

I use home-made chicken broth without the spices to increase water
consumption in cats that need extra hydration.

>
> >Canned diets also cause more frequent urination which helps eliminate
> >particles before they can aggregate or accrete into larger and larger
> >particles that eventually become crystals and uroliths.
>
> Can you please explain how a canned-food diet increases urination?

Canned food increases total water intake which in turn increases urine
volume that results in more frequent urination.


I
> thought they put salt in dry food to encourage water consumption. Not
> enough though, I guess.

You guessed right. Cats fed dry food drink more water than cats fed canned
food but most of the water goes into fecal moisture rather than urine
volume.

Catman 07
August 31st 07, 04:03 AM
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:18:00 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"Catman 07" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:38:44 GMT, "Phil P." >
>> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Phil. I just read your article on dry vs wet cat food on your
>> maxshouse.com site. The dry cat food I"ve stopped using says it is
>> "approved by veterinarians". So WHY are none of the many facts you
>> present AGAINST dry cat food mentioned on the label?!
>
>
>Because if they were no one would buy the food.... Most of the knowledge
>that most vets have about nutrition came from pet food company sales reps.
>
>
> If vets are
>> going to give their "Stamp of Approval" to a product they KNOW is
>> detrimental, then I must ask: What the hell is going on?!
>
>It only takes one or two vets to endorse a product to substantiate the claim
>"Veterinarian Approved" or "Recommended by Veterinarians"-- and those vets
>probably work for the company.

I'm afraid it's far worse than that, Phil; as I misquoted the package
when I said "approved by veterinarians". What it actually says,
verbatim, is: "CERTIFIED BY THE CANADIAN VETERINARY MEDICAL
ASSOCIATION TO MEET ITS NUTRITIONAL STANDARDS", along with their seal.
How can their "nutritional standards" be SO LOW that this dry cat food
meets them? MY standards are higher than that, and I'm NOT a vet.
Imho, this endorsement brings the nutritional competence of vets into
question (at least those who agree with the forgoing endorsement).
What ever happened to "First, DO NO HARM."! If you can't trust
veterinarians to get such a simple thing as this right, then what CAN
you trust them with? The life of your dearly loved pet? All I can say
is that it's a sad day for the practice of veterinary medicine.
Catman

>>Are we being intentionally MISLED?
>
>Ya think???
>

Catman 07
August 31st 07, 08:54 AM
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:20:34 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"CatMan07" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:38:44 GMT, "Phil P." >
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >First off- are you *absolutely* sure your cat's uroliths are composed of
>> >struvite and not calcium oxalate?
>>
>> No, I'm not sure. In fact, I have my doubts as I've only fed my cat a
>> reduced magnesium dry cat food, with the occasional canned fish
>> treat..
>
>Has your cat even been seen by a vet? or are you just guessing? If your cat
>hasn't been seen by vet, I suggest you bring him in right away. Urinary
>tract problems in male cats can become life threatening very quickly .
>
>Your cat might not even have crystals/uroliths. Feline Interstitial
>Cystitis can produce symptoms that resemble a partial urethral obstruction.
>Inflammation in the bladder or urethra produces the same type of sensation
>and urge to urinate as a full bladder whether the bladder is full or empty.
>If the bladder is actually empty, the cat will appear to be blocked and
>straining to urinate. If you start playing with his urine pH without knowing
>what his problem is you might be create a more serious problem than he
>actually has.

The first question that comes to mind is how likely is it that my
cat's symptoms of: 1) urinating out of the box, 2) blood in the urine,
3) "camping out" in the box, and 4) licking his penis a lot, were
caused by a urolith? According to
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2005&PID=11004&O=Generic.
the recent incidence of non-obstructive FLUTD in male cats caused by a
urolith was 9%. Your nutrition article mentioned that currently, 43%
of uroliths are calcium oxalate. So the odds of my cat having a
calcium oxalate urolith is a little less than 4%. And the odds of my
cat having a cause other than a calcium oxalate urolith is 96%.

From your article on FLUTD, in the "treatment of cystitis" section, it
is mentioned that: "...anti-inflammatory medications to reduce
swelling and bleeding are often used, special diets, and giving canned
foods or broth to help flush the bladder are usually employed." Seeing
that the odds are 24 to 1 that the forgoing treatment will be
beneficial, I think I'll stick with that. And, I'm VERY HAPPY to
report that it seems to be working. No more urinating out-of-the box,
or blood in the urine, or"camping out" in the box. He still licks his
penis more than usual, but not near as much, or as often. The main
difference now is that his urinary volume is about 1/5 as much as
before he got sick. He likes me to pet his belly sometimes; so I felt
around his lower abdomen (I pressed pretty firmly) and there was no
internal swelling (his bladder) that I could detect and there was no
tenderness (he didn't object to my pressing).

I did give him some omega 3 fish oil from capsules as well as the
salmon in the beginning. I guess I'll never know if that made a
difference. In any case, NO MORE DRY FOOD!!

I want to sincerely thank you Phil for all your help. Especially
considering how awfully busy you are right now.

>> > Acidifying the urine in a cat that has
>> >calcium oxalate uroliths or crystals is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
>> >Years ago about 90% of the crystals found in cats was struvite. But since
>> >the advent of so-called acidified urinary tract health diets the
>incidence
>> >of struvite has decreased while the incidence of calcium oxalate has
>> >increased ~10x to almost 50%.
>>
>> Can it be that the "cure" is worse than the "disease"?
>>
>> >So, before you start manipulating your cat's
>> >urine pH, make sure you know which way you have to go.



>> >If your cat has struvite, speak to your vet about Hill's Prescription
>Diet
>> >s/d. This diet is designed to dissolve struvite. You can also buy urine
>> >acidifiers in tablet and gel form. However, you must be careful-
>> >dl-methionine is toxic to cats in high doses. Don't give your cat a urine
>> >acidifier if your feeding him a specially acidified diet. Calcium oxalate
>> >uroliths cannot be dissolved and must be removed surgically if it doesn't
>> >pass or can't be retrieved.
>>
>> Considering my cat's low Mg diet, there is a very good chance, as you
>> say, that the blockage may be calcium oxalate. As mucus is formed
>> around urethral crystals,
>
>First off- you're describing a urethral *plug* not a stone (urolith) or
>crystal. A urethral plug
>is something like fruit jello where the mucus would be like the gelatin and
>the crystals would like the fruit. Uroliths don't contain mucus. Male cats
>are more likely to develop urethral plugs than uroliths.
>
>>I thought that an anti-inflammatory food
>> such as salmon might reduce the inflammation (AND the associated
>> swelling) and increase the possibility that the stone, of whatever
>> composition, will be more likely to pass naturally.
>
>
>Possible but not probable.

Do you have any idea what the percentage of calcium oxalate uroliths
that pass naturally is?

>>The increase in
>> the volume of the urine is substantiating this idea, imho. The omega
>> 3s in the salmon are also blood thinners, so I am not surprised that
>> there is some visible blood in the urine now.
>
>
>The blood in the urine (hematuria) is more likely the result of small tears
>in the bladder from straining to urinate or from irritations or lacerations
>to
>the bladder or urethral mucosa from crystals. Over distention of the bladder
>can also produce small tears that will produce hematuria.
>
>
>>
>> >
>> >If the problem turns out to be struvite, you can reduce the risk of
>future
>> >occurrences by feeding your cat a *meat-based* canned diet twice a day-
>12
>> >hours apart. The sulfur-containing amino acids and phospholipids in meat
>> >acidify the urine, whereas diets containing a lot of plant materials
>> >alkalinize it.
>>
>> It sounds like a meat-based diet is just better all-round for cats. So
>> CORN, being the FIRST ingredient in my cat's dry food is BAD, and may
>> turn out to have been REALLY BAD!
>>
>> >Long periods between meals allows the cat's natural urine
>> >acidity to return and dissolve any struvite that might have formed during
>> >the postprandial alkaline tide.
>>
>> So would feeding him once a day be even better?
>
>
>No.
>
>>
>> >In either case, a canned diet will help reduce the formation of both
>types
>> >of crystals because it increases urine volume and dilutes the
>concentration
>> >of crystal-forming particles in the urine making them easier to
>eliminate.
>>
>> My cat really likes the juice from the canned salmon, even better than
>> the salmon itself! Go figure. So I've been adding some water to the
>> juice to get more fluids in him. That seems to be one of the things
>> that is working the best. Is there something I can add to my cat's
>> water that will make him drink more? I sure hope so.

I've switched to tuna water as it is cheaper than salmon, and if I
have to throw out the tuna (which seems like a hell of a waste)
because it is high in magnesium, I won't feel so bad (every penny
counts in my situation). Do you think fish would hurt my cat on a high
meat diet, which will keep his urine acidic?

>
>I use home-made chicken broth without the spices to increase water
>consumption in cats that need extra hydration.

That sounds like a GREAT idea, as I just bought 5 lbs of stripped
chicken carcasses, which are now in my freezer. I presented my cat
with a thawed one and he just licked it, but wouldn't eat it. If I
make a broth out of those car cases, there is going to be a LOT of fat
floating on the broth. Should I throw out all of that rendered fat, or
should I give him, say, 1/4 of it (If he will eat it)?

>
>>
>> >Canned diets also cause more frequent urination which helps eliminate
>> >particles before they can aggregate or accrete into larger and larger
>> >particles that eventually become crystals and uroliths.

Are crystals just small uroliths? In my mind I see crystals as having
sharp, jagged edges; and uroliths as smooth and round, like a
baseball.
Catman

>> Can you please explain how a canned-food diet increases urination?
>
>Canned food increases total water intake which in turn increases urine
>volume that results in more frequent urination.
>
>>I
>> thought they put salt in dry food to encourage water consumption. Not
>> enough though, I guess.
>
>You guessed right. Cats fed dry food drink more water than cats fed canned
>food but most of the water goes into fecal moisture rather than urine
>volume.

Phil P.
September 1st 07, 11:40 AM
"Catman 07" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:18:00 GMT, "Phil P." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Catman 07" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:38:44 GMT, "Phil P." >
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks, Phil. I just read your article on dry vs wet cat food on your
> >> maxshouse.com site. The dry cat food I"ve stopped using says it is
> >> "approved by veterinarians". So WHY are none of the many facts you
> >> present AGAINST dry cat food mentioned on the label?!
> >
> >
> >Because if they were no one would buy the food.... Most of the knowledge
> >that most vets have about nutrition came from pet food company sales
reps.
> >
> >
> > If vets are
> >> going to give their "Stamp of Approval" to a product they KNOW is
> >> detrimental, then I must ask: What the hell is going on?!
> >
> >It only takes one or two vets to endorse a product to substantiate the
claim
> >"Veterinarian Approved" or "Recommended by Veterinarians"-- and those
vets
> >probably work for the company.
>
> I'm afraid it's far worse than that, Phil; as I misquoted the package
> when I said "approved by veterinarians". What it actually says,
> verbatim, is: "CERTIFIED BY THE CANADIAN VETERINARY MEDICAL
> ASSOCIATION TO MEET ITS NUTRITIONAL STANDARDS", along with their seal.
> How can their "nutritional standards" be SO LOW that this dry cat food
> meets them?

All it means is that the food contains the minimum nutrient levels for
cats-- that doesn't mean all the nutrients are bioavailable. Shoe leather
will fulfill the protein requirement- but the cat can't metabolize it.


MY standards are higher than that, and I'm NOT a vet.
> Imho, this endorsement brings the nutritional competence of vets into
> question (at least those who agree with the forgoing endorsement).
> What ever happened to "First, DO NO HARM."!

"First, do no harm" is not in the vet's "Hypocritic... I mean
"Hippocratic"oath.

Phil P.
September 1st 07, 11:41 AM
"Catman 07" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:20:34 GMT, "Phil P." >
> wrote:

<snip>

So the odds of my cat having a
> calcium oxalate urolith is a little less than 4%. And the odds of my
> cat having a cause other than a calcium oxalate urolith is 96%.
>

<snip>


.." Seeing
> that the odds are 24 to 1 that the forgoing treatment will be
> beneficial, I think I'll stick with that.


I wouln't play the odds with a male cat with a urinary tract problem.
You're gambling with his life. At least get him checked out- and even
x-rayed to make sure he doesn't have a potential obstruction. Sometimes
lodged plugs and uroliths move a little which allows urine to pass and then
move again and cause a blockage.


And, I'm VERY HAPPY to
> report that it seems to be working. No more urinating out-of-the box,
> or blood in the urine, or"camping out" in the box. He still licks his
> penis more than usual,

<snip>

Licking his penis more than usual is a classic sign of penial urethral
crystal or plug. I'd really get him checked by a vet if I were you. Its ok
to try home remedies on little problems- but not on urinary tract problems
in male cats. The *first* thing you must do is rule out the possibility- or
the potential- of a blockage because it can quickly become life-threatening.
Once the potential of a blockage been definitively ruled out, you can try
your home remedies.


>
> I did give him some omega 3 fish oil from capsules as well as the
> salmon in the beginning. I guess I'll never know if that made a
> difference. In any case, NO MORE DRY FOOD!!

Omega-3s are renoprotective- So, at least you'll be protecting his kidneys.

>
> I want to sincerely thank you Phil for all your help. Especially
> considering how awfully busy you are right now.

I've had a little time to read the group because I've been laid up for a few
days- I hurt my back lifting a sewer grate to get a kitten that was stuck
in the pipe. Real smart.... At least I got the kitten out--so it was worth
it. We've TNR'd over 1000 cats (not counting kittens) so far this year-
almost 700 were female. So, there will be about 3,000 less kittens in my
area next year. About 250 of the cats we trapped are adoptable. Want some?
;-)

Cheryl
September 2nd 07, 01:30 AM
On Sat 01 Sep 2007 06:41:20a, Phil P. wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav <news:[email protected]>:

> I've had a little time to read the group because I've been laid
> up for a few days- I hurt my back lifting a sewer grate to get
> a kitten that was stuck in the pipe. Real smart.... At least I
> got the kitten out--so it was worth it. We've TNR'd over 1000
> cats (not counting kittens) so far this year- almost 700 were
> female. So, there will be about 3,000 less kittens in my area
> next year. About 250 of the cats we trapped are adoptable. Want
> some?

Tho we've had our differences, you hold a special place in my heart
for helping Shadow, and I hope your back is better soon. The
kitties need you. I've been trying to help a woman who is a one-
person rescue group, and while I can't get too emotionally involved
yet, I've been trying to help with fundraising. Cat and any animal
rescue is one thing that breaks my heart to the point of being
almost emotionally paralyzed, and I so respect those who can do it,
have their heart broken and keep on keeping on.

--
Cheryl

Catman 07
September 9th 07, 06:24 AM
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:41:20 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"Catman 07" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:20:34 GMT, "Phil P." >
>> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>So the odds of my cat having a
>> calcium oxalate urolith is a little less than 4%. And the odds of my
>> cat having a cause other than a calcium oxalate urolith is 96%.
>>
>
><snip>
>
>
>." Seeing
>> that the odds are 24 to 1 that the forgoing treatment will be
>> beneficial, I think I'll stick with that.
>
>
>I wouln't play the odds with a male cat with a urinary tract problem.
>You're gambling with his life. At least get him checked out- and even
>x-rayed to make sure he doesn't have a potential obstruction. Sometimes
>lodged plugs and uroliths move a little which allows urine to pass and then
>move again and cause a blockage.
>
>
>>And, I'm VERY HAPPY to
>> report that it seems to be working. No more urinating out-of-the box,
>> or blood in the urine, or"camping out" in the box. He still licks his
>> penis more than usual,
>
><snip>
>
>Licking his penis more than usual is a classic sign of penial urethral
>crystal or plug. I'd really get him checked by a vet if I were you. Its ok
>to try home remedies on little problems- but not on urinary tract problems
>in male cats. The *first* thing you must do is rule out the possibility- or
>the potential- of a blockage because it can quickly become life-threatening.
>Once the potential of a blockage been definitively ruled out, you can try
>your home remedies.
>
>
>>
>> I did give him some omega 3 fish oil from capsules as well as the
>> salmon in the beginning. I guess I'll never know if that made a
>> difference. In any case, NO MORE DRY FOOD!!
>
>Omega-3s are renoprotective- So, at least you'll be protecting his kidneys.
>
>>
>> I want to sincerely thank you Phil for all your help. Especially
>> considering how awfully busy you are right now.
>
>I've had a little time to read the group because I've been laid up for a few
>days- I hurt my back lifting a sewer grate to get a kitten that was stuck
>in the pipe. Real smart.... At least I got the kitten out--so it was worth
>it. We've TNR'd over 1000 cats (not counting kittens) so far this year-
>almost 700 were female. So, there will be about 3,000 less kittens in my
>area next year. About 250 of the cats we trapped are adoptable. Want some?
>;-)
>
GOOD NEWS: my cat has fully recovered. His urine flow is strong and
steady. No more penis licking. My sincere thanks to all for their
help, especially Phil.
Catman

cybercat
September 9th 07, 06:46 AM
"Catman 07" > wrote
>>;-)
>>
> GOOD NEWS: my cat has fully recovered. His urine flow is strong and
> steady. No more penis licking. My sincere thanks to all for their
> help, especially Phil.

Excellent news.