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-Lost
October 10th 07, 07:50 AM
OK lads and lasses, Gabby and I need your help and sagely advice,
PLEASE, only offer information that is beneficial. I do not need to
hear that I should have locked my child up or kept my kid from being
able to walk around in her own home.

After CatNipped suggested that we stop the roughhousing with Gabby,
we did. It also seemed that with a mix of the "crying Uncle" method
and a few other "scare tactics" or startling or whatnot, that she is
totally cool with NOT fighting and playing rough.

Well, Monday, Gabby started chasing down the dogs and playing more
roughly than what they wanted to. So we have had to get on her about
that. She immediately stops but of course goes back to it whenever
they walk past. She is REALLY attracted to their tails wagging.
Anyway...

Today Gabby did something she has NEVER done before, leaping-wise or
attacking. And that was that she leaped on the face of my 20 month
old as she walked past, tearing a long claw mark down her cheek.
Gabby leaped from the arm of the couch horizontally across to my
daughter's face.

Now, I will be completely honest with you folks... I considered
killing Gabby. Or at the very least, taking her to the pound where I
know they would have killed her after 5 days anyway. After I told
them we were getting rid of her for being problematic along the lines
of hurting one of us they would have euthanized her immediately.

Then I tried to be rational about it and thought:

1. We were making the mistake of playing with her in the first
place.

Although we do not think it is unreasonable to be able to roughhouse
with a cat. We have known cats that LOVE to brawl, but also stay
calm as can be when you are done.

Still, we could have helped reinforce that this behavior was OK.

2. She is still a kitten. She has not learned yet OR not calmed
down yet.

3. She WAS playing.

So, no sooner than I would hurt my own baby, I look down at the furry
baby snuggled up against my thigh and think, "I would love to bounce
you off a wall for this, but you're just a baby and that's not fair."

I am calm (well, calmer than before) now and could REALLY use some
proven methods to calm her bullying down. I say bullying, but she
really isn't being a bully... she is being a playful kitten.

Can anyone think of some methods to speed up the process of teaching
her when playtime is over?

A few notes:

1. She has PLENTY of toys.
2. She has PLENTY of things to climb on.
3. She expends PLENTY of energy.

Um... I may be forgetting something, but I think that covers a few
bases.

So... any help please? And try to be constructive and as positive as
you can be, please. I could have just given up on Gabby, but realize
I could have been part of the problem and I am willing to rectify
that.

Thanks, people. I appreciate your time. Oh, and here is what she
did to my 20 month old.

http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gabbysmistakefe9.png

That is the right side of the corner of her mouth, and I believe that
is a hair of mine going horizontally across it that I did not notice
until now.

Again, thanks...

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sheelagh >o
October 10th 07, 05:30 PM
On 10 Oct, 07:50, "-Lost" > wrote:
> OK lads and lasses, Gabby and I need your help and sagely advice,
> PLEASE, only offer information that is beneficial. I do not need to
> hear that I should have locked my child up or kept my kid from being
> able to walk around in her own home.
>
> After CatNipped suggested that we stop the roughhousing with Gabby,
> we did. It also seemed that with a mix of the "crying Uncle" method
> and a few other "scare tactics" or startling or whatnot, that she is
> totally cool with NOT fighting and playing rough.
>
> Well, Monday, Gabby started chasing down the dogs and playing more
> roughly than what they wanted to. So we have had to get on her about
> that. She immediately stops but of course goes back to it whenever
> they walk past. She is REALLY attracted to their tails wagging.
> Anyway...
>
> Today Gabby did something she has NEVER done before, leaping-wise or
> attacking. And that was that she leaped on the face of my 20 month
> old as she walked past, tearing a long claw mark down her cheek.
> Gabby leaped from the arm of the couch horizontally across to my
> daughter's face.
>
> Now, I will be completely honest with you folks... I considered
> killing Gabby. Or at the very least, taking her to the pound where I
> know they would have killed her after 5 days anyway. After I told
> them we were getting rid of her for being problematic along the lines
> of hurting one of us they would have euthanized her immediately.
>
> Then I tried to be rational about it and thought:
>
> 1. We were making the mistake of playing with her in the first
> place.
>
> Although we do not think it is unreasonable to be able to roughhouse
> with a cat. We have known cats that LOVE to brawl, but also stay
> calm as can be when you are done.
>
> Still, we could have helped reinforce that this behavior was OK.
>
> 2. She is still a kitten. She has not learned yet OR not calmed
> down yet.
>
> 3. She WAS playing.
>
> So, no sooner than I would hurt my own baby, I look down at the furry
> baby snuggled up against my thigh and think, "I would love to bounce
> you off a wall for this, but you're just a baby and that's not fair."
>
> I am calm (well, calmer than before) now and could REALLY use some
> proven methods to calm her bullying down. I say bullying, but she
> really isn't being a bully... she is being a playful kitten.
>
> Can anyone think of some methods to speed up the process of teaching
> her when playtime is over?
>
> A few notes:
>
> 1. She has PLENTY of toys.
> 2. She has PLENTY of things to climb on.
> 3. She expends PLENTY of energy.
>
> Um... I may be forgetting something, but I think that covers a few
> bases.
>
> So... any help please? And try to be constructive and as positive as
> you can be, please. I could have just given up on Gabby, but realize
> I could have been part of the problem and I am willing to rectify
> that.
>
> Thanks, people. I appreciate your time. Oh, and here is what she
> did to my 20 month old.
>
> http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gabbysmistakefe9.png
>
> That is the right side of the corner of her mouth, and I believe that
> is a hair of mine going horizontally across it that I did not notice
> until now.
>
> Again, thanks...
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

First off, I would like to point out that Cindy has given you some
excellent advice there. If you clip her claws, soft Paws is a very
good option.

Cats, like humans, make mistakes too- the trick is to get them to
learn from it. Much easier said than done obviously.....

I'm not sure if you would consider the next thing I'm about to
mention, but it is worth asking you. Have you thought of getting a
play mate for Gabby @ all? The chances are that if you decided to get
another kitten of roughly the same age, that she will be far more
interested in him-her, & will pay far less attention to you all when
it comes to playing rough.

Now, not everyone would agree with me, but I think it makes perfect
sense, as long as you can afford to take on the responsibility of
course? Personally, I would choose a kitten that is slightly bigger
than she is, to teach her the lessen about someone bigger might not
let you away with naughty- pants syndrome. Felines love company, but
mostly it is always on their terms. I think this is the best way to
calm her down. Gabby is just a very high spirited cat with too much
time on her hands by the sound of things, so she goes looking for
something to do...

What do you think?

Also, thank you for not sending her back to the shelter. Gabby
deserves a second chance

It's worth a thought though!!
Best Wishes & good Luck,
Sheelagh >"o"<

-Lost
October 10th 07, 06:48 PM
Response from "cindys" >:

> Lost, I don't keep up with all the threads, so please forgive me
> if this is repetitious.

It is totally OK sweetheart, thanks for the taking the time to help
me at all! I appreciate it.

> When my now-15-year-old-son was about nine months old and just
> learning to crawl, he crawled up to Alex the cat (who was sitting
> on a chair) who immediately gave him a huge scratch across the
> face, narrowly missing his eye. I thought I was going to have to
> give Alex back to the no-kill shelter where we adopted him, and I
> phoned them right away. This is what they explained to me
> (although this would not be the same for you since your daughter
> is older):
>
> They said the cat sees this small human (my son). The cat
> recognizes it as some sort of an animal that is about its size but
> not one of its kind, and its seeks to dominate. I don't know if
> that is really true. I think the more likely reason the incident
> occurred, in our case, was more because my son was eye-level with
> the cat and the cat took my son's approach (and staring) as a
> challenge. At any rate, the shelter recommended that I get Soft
> Paws.

You know, this makes sense to me. However in Gabby's situation, I
just think she went from the point of being scared of everything in
this household to attacking everything in this household because of
how comfortable she feels.

It was almost as if our warm and loving care of her made her TOO
relaxed and easy going. So much so that we now have to feel the
wrath of the energetic kitty monster.

> A few weeks ago, I saw a discussion about Soft Paws on this group,
> and IIRC a poster was saying he or she didn't like the Soft Paws
> because they kept falling off because the cat's claws were too
> long. Someone else advocated clipping the cat's claws instead. I
> was too busy to post a follow-up then, but I will do so now: When
> you use Soft Paws, the assumption is that you will clip the cat's
> claws before putting the Soft Paws on. It is not an either/or, but
> a both. The cat's claws take about a month to grow out again, so
> the Soft Paws need to be reapplied monthly.

I actually may have been in that conversation... haha.

In fact, I did check into those nail slip-ons. However I never got a
definitive answer if I remember correctly on whether or not Gabby
would still be able to use her scratching areas. I was not sure if
she would be able to hook into the things she needed to for
stretching and whatnot.

And if she WAS able to, then how was that proving that she could not
still scratch US?

I think after yesterday's incident though we are going to go for it
anyway. Oh, and Gabby's claws WERE cut when this happened.

> I put Soft Paws on Alex for a couple of months (they had to be
> replaced a few times). I'm not saying this is in lieu of using the
> other training techniques that you discussed with other posters on
> this group, but it is a nice insurance policy. If the cat
> scratches again, the scratchee will not be injured. I think that
> once Gabby gets a little older, she will be much less wild, and as
> your child gets a little bigger, Gabby will not see her as an easy
> target. I really think the situation will improve.
>
> One thing that you should never consider (and I mention this only
> because I considered it at the time of the Alex incident) was
> having the cat declawed. I was ignorant then and did not know it
> was a multilation and could lead to much more aggression (such as
> biting) down the road. Fortunately, I had signed a no-declaw
> agreement with the shelter, and that prevented me from having Alex
> declawed at the time. Thank God! The Soft Paws worked great, and
> we only actually needed to use them for a short time. The vet
> showed us how to put them on. The vet can even put them on for
> you, if necessary. Alex is now over 16 years old, he still has his
> claws, and he doesn't scratch or bite, and my son is 15 years old,
> and everything is fine.

Oh God no. Everyone here put me straight to the point on declawing.
I thought it was simply a matter of removing a nail like on humans.
I did not realize it was amputating a knuckle. FORGET THAT!

> In my experience (of having quite a few cats) two years old seems
> to be the age when a cat calms down significantly.

Oh man... another year and a half of this!? HAHA! (That was a
nervous laugh.)

> Good luck. Please keep us posted.

Thanks, I will, Cindy. Have a great day.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 10th 07, 07:09 PM
Response from "Sheelagh >o<" >:

<snip>

> First off, I would like to point out that Cindy has given you some
> excellent advice there. If you clip her claws, soft Paws is a very
> good option.

Yeah, enough research for me... I am going to try them out.

> Cats, like humans, make mistakes too- the trick is to get them to
> learn from it. Much easier said than done obviously.....
>
> I'm not sure if you would consider the next thing I'm about to
> mention, but it is worth asking you. Have you thought of getting a
> play mate for Gabby @ all? The chances are that if you decided to
> get another kitten of roughly the same age, that she will be far
> more interested in him-her, & will pay far less attention to you
> all when it comes to playing rough.

Ugh... I just knew that was going to be a suggestion. Sadly, that is
not an option for us. See, Gabby was not supposed to be our cat.
She was a stray that we found just 25 days ago!

The only animal refuge we have in our vicinity was full, we have NO
no-kill shelters, and the pound was the only other option. The pound
euthanizes ALL animals after a 5-day period of no adoption.

We really hated to see SUCH a beautiful critter get killed. She was
this poor, little, helpless, crying baby that we found under one of
our cars in a rainstorm.

That is how Gabby came to be our 80th or so member of this family
(about 50 of those are snails), and the ONLY cat. We used to think
of ourselves as an upper-middle class family until we got to the
point that animals ate better than us.

So despite not having the room, because the new kitty would have to
be an indoor one too, we simply cannot handle inviting another of
these bundles of furry madness into the house.

Just in general though, too, I think one cat is enough. We just have
to explore other areas. It may not be the right choice, but it is
the choice we currently have to make.

> Now, not everyone would agree with me, but I think it makes
> perfect sense, as long as you can afford to take on the
> responsibility of course? Personally, I would choose a kitten that
> is slightly bigger than she is, to teach her the lessen about
> someone bigger might not let you away with naughty- pants
> syndrome. Felines love company, but mostly it is always on their
> terms. I think this is the best way to calm her down. Gabby is
> just a very high spirited cat with too much time on her hands by
> the sound of things, so she goes looking for something to do...

We could afford it most likely, but not emotionally. I have to think
of my other indoor critters too. To think, I was initially worried
about my doggies posturing toward her. Come to find out they only
wanted to have a thorough sniff and they were done with her. Now a
few weeks later she is terrorizing them.

What is REALLY funny though was watching our ferrets and our rabbit
KICK THE CRAP out of Gabby. Gabby thought she was slick and that
Sweet Pea (one of our rabbits) was a pushover. After leaping onto
the rabbit, Sweet Pea spun around and pummeled her mercilessly with
her paws. Gabby and Sweet Pea politely sniff each other in passing
now and that's that.

Odo and Podo (the ferrets) like to fight in pairs or rather, you
cannot pick on one without the other coming to the defense. Gabby
soon learned she was no match for 2 adult ferrets as well. Again...
we have nice, calm, polite sniffing of each other and that is all.

However, my poor puppies are FREAKED out by this constant attack. At
first they played with her, well, at least Pudge did. But Gabby just
kept getting rougher and rougher and now they want nothing to do with
her. They literally run off or run to me and there goes Gabby
chasing them down.

> What do you think?

I think it sucks that we cannot find her a suitable playmate. I do
not totally believe Gabby is bored by any means, I mean, she has TONS
of people and animals to play with who actually like her. She is
taking advantage of my dogs though and now my youngest daughter.

I really wish we could do another kitty, but I already know what the
family would say, especially since we had a HUGE talk about what to
do with Gabby in the first place. We agonized over keeping her.
Finally we made the plunge and initiated her into the family so it is
our obligation to make things work, I am sure you know what I mean.

> Also, thank you for not sending her back to the shelter. Gabby
> deserves a second chance

Hehe... you are welcome. I am not ready to boot her just yet. Like
you said, Gabby deserves another shot. Although I am not sure how
many more times of scratching someone in the face I am going to
tolerate.

Thanks a bunch, Sheelagh >"o"<. As always you have been most helpful
and helped me to bring some things into perspective.

I do think its funny though that no one has said, "Oh, your poor
daughter, is she OK?" It's only, "Give the cat another shot!"
HAHAHA!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sheelagh >o
October 10th 07, 07:45 PM
On 10 Oct, 19:09, "-Lost" > wrote:
> Response from "Sheelagh >o<" >:
>
> <snip>
>
> > First off, I would like to point out that Cindy has given you some
> > excellent advice there. If you clip her claws, soft Paws is a very
> > good option.
>
> Yeah, enough research for me... I am going to try them out.
>
> > Cats, like humans, make mistakes too- the trick is to get them to
> > learn from it. Much easier said than done obviously.....
>
> > I'm not sure if you would consider the next thing I'm about to
> > mention, but it is worth asking you. Have you thought of getting a
> > play mate for Gabby @ all? The chances are that if you decided to
> > get another kitten of roughly the same age, that she will be far
> > more interested in him-her, & will pay far less attention to you
> > all when it comes to playing rough.
>
> Ugh... I just knew that was going to be a suggestion. Sadly, that is
> not an option for us. See, Gabby was not supposed to be our cat.
> She was a stray that we found just 25 days ago!
>
> The only animal refuge we have in our vicinity was full, we have NO
> no-kill shelters, and the pound was the only other option. The pound
> euthanizes ALL animals after a 5-day period of no adoption.
>
> We really hated to see SUCH a beautiful critter get killed. She was
> this poor, little, helpless, crying baby that we found under one of
> our cars in a rainstorm.
>
> That is how Gabby came to be our 80th or so member of this family
> (about 50 of those are snails), and the ONLY cat. We used to think
> of ourselves as an upper-middle class family until we got to the
> point that animals ate better than us.
>
> So despite not having the room, because the new kitty would have to
> be an indoor one too, we simply cannot handle inviting another of
> these bundles of furry madness into the house.
>
> Just in general though, too, I think one cat is enough. We just have
> to explore other areas. It may not be the right choice, but it is
> the choice we currently have to make.
>
> > Now, not everyone would agree with me, but I think it makes
> > perfect sense, as long as you can afford to take on the
> > responsibility of course? Personally, I would choose a kitten that
> > is slightly bigger than she is, to teach her the lessen about
> > someone bigger might not let you away with naughty- pants
> > syndrome. Felines love company, but mostly it is always on their
> > terms. I think this is the best way to calm her down. Gabby is
> > just a very high spirited cat with too much time on her hands by
> > the sound of things, so she goes looking for something to do...
>
> We could afford it most likely, but not emotionally. I have to think
> of my other indoor critters too. To think, I was initially worried
> about my doggies posturing toward her. Come to find out they only
> wanted to have a thorough sniff and they were done with her. Now a
> few weeks later she is terrorizing them.
>
> What is REALLY funny though was watching our ferrets and our rabbit
> KICK THE CRAP out of Gabby. Gabby thought she was slick and that
> Sweet Pea (one of our rabbits) was a pushover. After leaping onto
> the rabbit, Sweet Pea spun around and pummeled her mercilessly with
> her paws. Gabby and Sweet Pea politely sniff each other in passing
> now and that's that.
>
> Odo and Podo (the ferrets) like to fight in pairs or rather, you
> cannot pick on one without the other coming to the defense. Gabby
> soon learned she was no match for 2 adult ferrets as well. Again...
> we have nice, calm, polite sniffing of each other and that is all.
>
> However, my poor puppies are FREAKED out by this constant attack. At
> first they played with her, well, at least Pudge did. But Gabby just
> kept getting rougher and rougher and now they want nothing to do with
> her. They literally run off or run to me and there goes Gabby
> chasing them down.
>
> > What do you think?
>
> I think it sucks that we cannot find her a suitable playmate. I do
> not totally believe Gabby is bored by any means, I mean, she has TONS
> of people and animals to play with who actually like her. She is
> taking advantage of my dogs though and now my youngest daughter.
>
> I really wish we could do another kitty, but I already know what the
> family would say, especially since we had a HUGE talk about what to
> do with Gabby in the first place. We agonized over keeping her.
> Finally we made the plunge and initiated her into the family so it is
> our obligation to make things work, I am sure you know what I mean.
>
> > Also, thank you for not sending her back to the shelter. Gabby
> > deserves a second chance
>
> Hehe... you are welcome. I am not ready to boot her just yet. Like
> you said, Gabby deserves another shot. Although I am not sure how
> many more times of scratching someone in the face I am going to
> tolerate.
>
> Thanks a bunch, Sheelagh >"o"<. As always you have been most helpful
> and helped me to bring some things into perspective.
>
> I do think its funny though that no one has said, "Oh, your poor
> daughter, is she OK?" It's only, "Give the cat another shot!"
> HAHAHA!
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

> I do think its funny though that no one has said, "Oh, your poor
> daughter, is she OK?" It's only, "Give the cat another shot!"
> HAHAHA!

OOP's Ouch!!
I deserved that one Lol :o)

Sorry, next time I will think a little harder before responding. I
have 5 kids too, so I know what you mean,
Sheelagh >"o"<

-Lost
October 10th 07, 08:18 PM
Response from "Sheelagh >o<" >:

>> I do think its funny though that no one has said, "Oh, your poor
>> daughter, is she OK?" It's only, "Give the cat another shot!"
>> HAHAHA!
>
> OOP's Ouch!!
> I deserved that one Lol :o)

Aw, it's OK, Sheelagh. I did not mean it in a bad way. I just thought
it was funny.

> Sorry, next time I will think a little harder before responding. I
> have 5 kids too, so I know what you mean,

Wow. You are in the same boat as me. I have all girls, how about you?

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Meghan Noecker
October 10th 07, 08:56 PM
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:18:43 -0500, "-Lost"
> wrote:

>Response from "Sheelagh >o<" >:
>
>>> I do think its funny though that no one has said, "Oh, your poor
>>> daughter, is she OK?" It's only, "Give the cat another shot!"
>>> HAHAHA!
>>
>> OOP's Ouch!!
>> I deserved that one Lol :o)
>
>Aw, it's OK, Sheelagh. I did not mean it in a bad way. I just thought
>it was funny.
>


I think we've all forgotten what it is like to be a kid getting
scratched. I'm 35 years old, and I grew up with cats and dogs, so
scratches are routine for me. I looked at the photo and thought, well,
that's not too bad. A scare, but not really horrible.

Meghan Noecker
October 10th 07, 10:02 PM
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:15:33 -0400, "cindys"
> wrote:


>and Molly hates him. What did we need him for ????" But all I can tell you,
>16 years later, is that he is elderly and has arthritis and chronic renal
>failure. He spends the majority of his day sleeping in the corner or on a
>chair. I would give anything to see him swing from the chandeliers or chew
>through an electric cord just one more time.
>

I was just telling my sister the other day how much I would give to
have Kira bite me again. It has been almost a year since she died, and
I would gladly accept her worst behavior, just to have her back again.
I miss all the good times as well (of course!). But the bad parts
don't seem bad at all after they are gone, and you can't have any of
it back.

Paul M. Cook[_2_]
October 11th 07, 05:25 AM
I will never really understand the big attraction to kittens. Everyone ants
a kitten. OK, they are cute. They are also holy terrors with more energy
than they can use in a day, rarely sleep, ruin your stuff, cut and scratch
you and generally just get into nothing but trouble. Now you know why
mother cats kick them out after about the 12th week.

My youngest cat is about 16 months old now. I got her at age 6 months. She
ruined about 1000.00 of my things, she turned my hand into a toy and caused
me many deep cuts. She terrorized one of my older cats. She kept me awake
all night long. She almost got killed several times, including a fall from
a high tree.

She is just now starting to calm down. She seems to like human touch more
and more. She misses me when I am away and is the first at the door when I
come home. She bites less, she scratches less. It's showing some promise
but for a while there I was considering making an oven mitt out of her ass.

She will outgrow the worst of it in a year or so. Really that's all that
will work. I always tell people this, get an older cat especially if you
are elderly or if you have children. Don't engage her in rough play. If
she gets rough, walk away. She will make the connection to roughness and
playtime being over.

And whatever you do, keep her and your child apart. Never allow them alone
together unsupervised. And there is never too early a time to teach
children that cats are not toys and they must not be handled roughly.

Paul

Sheelagh >o
October 11th 07, 02:16 PM
On 10 Oct, 20:18, "-Lost" > wrote:
> Response from "Sheelagh >o<" >:
>
> >> I do think its funny though that no one has said, "Oh, your poor
> >> daughter, is she OK?" It's only, "Give the cat another shot!"
> >> HAHAHA!
>
> > OOP's Ouch!!
> > I deserved that one Lol :o)
>
> Aw, it's OK, Sheelagh. I did not mean it in a bad way. I just thought
> it was funny.
>
> > Sorry, next time I will think a little harder before responding. I
> > have 5 kids too, so I know what you mean,
>
> Wow. You are in the same boat as me. I have all girls, how about you?
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

Katie 21,
Luke 18,
Ross17,
Jack14,
Tilly 11
So a girl @ each end & 3 boys in the middle....

All girls..?!!! Wow, that is a lot of weddings you have to save for
( in the UK it is traditional that the Bride's parent's have to foot
the bill, but not always)

I have one @ University (Kt) Having just finished her 1st degree, she
has just started on a Master of Arts, in social health care. A very
expensive venture, & another fund to pay towards, Lol,. The elder boys
are @ college doing A'levels, & the younger two are still @ school.
All worth while though. The best thing you can give your child apart
from love, is a good education & morals too.

I haven't forgotten what it was like when they were little either.
Both Jack & Tilly were extremely premature. Jack was born @ 26wks
gestation @2LB 6 OZ, & Tilly was born @ 27 wks @870GRMS., so it felt
like they were little forever- but like everything, it passes so
quickly, & as most other here say, you don't realise how lucky you are
until you don't have it anymore. That applies to family, children,
pets & friends & all the things that make life what it is today.

Gabby will slow down over the next 6 months or so, & become part of
the furniture so to speak. She is @ the toddler stage in kitten -
hood. It won't last forever, & you will look back & laugh about this
one day :o)

Most of my cat's are pedigree cats, simply because I used to breed
cats. One day I woke up after a very difficult period with my cats. we
went through Ring worm, then I had a vet tell me that after operating
on one of my queens, that her eye's & nose were running because she
was looking for attention. In actual fact, she caught cat flu @ the
veterinary surgery, came home with it, & passed it on to all of my
other cats including a final litter of kittens. The kittens died, &
the vet bill came to a total of over $2,000!! Needless to say, I
changed vets after liberating Lilly (seal point birman with flu), &
took her straight down the road to another vet, as well as the rest of
the cats, to make sure there were no other problems.

I missed breeding, but knew I had done the right thing- Breeders are
part of the problem (But IMHO I think it is the kitten mills that are
the greatest problem- not the dedicated breeders who do things as they
should be done.) If someone wants a pedigree cat, they are going to
get one whatever you say to try & convince them that there are
millions of cats out there crying out for homes. It's human nature I
believe.

I don't regret it, & when talking about the experience on this group,
Wendy proposed that it might be an idea to take in pregnant queens
from cat agencies (mainly the Cat Protection League). I took her up on
that, & I've never looked back. Most months it was a struggle to break
even, but now I get support to care for cats-moral & financial, which
makes it all a lot less stressful too. I have taken on 2 full time
moggies though. Ringo the orange tabby, & Lucy(fur), who is the black
cat. Ringo owns Ross, & Lucy(fur!!) owns our daughter, Tilly.

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/sheelaghmadden/OURCURRENTFELINEFAMILY02

Here are a few photos of the cats, so that you can visualise them if I
speak about them.

PS: Yes, I did sue the vet, & she made me an out of court settlement
last week. The money was helpful, but knowing that she has been banned
from practising as a veterinary surgeon is even better. She nearly
killed every cat we have, & they are close family members..... Someone
has to stand up for their rights, so I did!

Sheelagh >"o"<

Paul M. Cook[_2_]
October 11th 07, 03:37 PM
"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>>
>> I will never really understand the big attraction to kittens. Everyone
>> ants a kitten. OK, they are cute. They are also holy terrors with more
>> energy than they can use in a day, rarely sleep, ruin your stuff, cut and
>> scratch you and generally just get into nothing but trouble. Now you
>> know why mother cats kick them out after about the 12th week.
>>
>> My youngest cat is about 16 months old now. I got her at age 6 months.
>> She ruined about 1000.00 of my things, she turned my hand into a toy and
>> caused me many deep cuts. She terrorized one of my older cats. She kept
>> me awake all night long. She almost got killed several times, including
>> a fall from a high tree.
>>
>> She is just now starting to calm down. She seems to like human touch
>> more and more. She misses me when I am away and is the first at the door
>> when I come home. She bites less, she scratches less. It's showing some
>> promise but for a while there I was considering making an oven mitt out
>> of her ass.
>>
>> She will outgrow the worst of it in a year or so. Really that's all that
>> will work. I always tell people this, get an older cat especially if you
>> are elderly or if you have children. Don't engage her in rough play. If
>> she gets rough, walk away. She will make the connection to roughness and
>> playtime being over.
>>
>> And whatever you do, keep her and your child apart. Never allow them
>> alone together unsupervised. And there is never too early a time to
>> teach children that cats are not toys and they must not be handled
>> roughly.
> -------
> In defense of Lost, my understanding is that they weren't looking to adopt
> a cat in the first place. They found Gabby as a stray, and they decided to
> provide her with a home rather than taking her to a shelter where she
> would be euthanized, which is wonderful. But in general, I do agree with
> everything you said above. I have had only two kittens in my life (one of
> whom was Alex). All of my other cats were adopted as adults.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

I think what she did was quite wonderful. She did not know what she was
getting into but that is not a crime. I don't tend to mix words or to dwell
on what I think is obvious so I may come across as a tad harsh. I hope that
Lost hangs in there, goes the distance and in the end is rewarded with a
nice companion animal. I just made the observation about kittens in
general. People seem so surprised when they don't act like little angels,
because they sure look like little angels. They are really overrated. I am
sure all of my mellow, happy and easy going guys were probably somebody
else's headache once because they were all adults when I got them.

Trust me, I know the feeling about evil thoughts like when little Noel
destroyed an irreplaceable clay Chinese cooking vessel that was custom made.
But they were just thoughts and I quickly came to my senses as did Lost. My
little cat girl tried my patience as far as any woman I have ever been with.
:) The only difference is she is still with me. So they are worth it.

Paul

>
>

-Lost
October 12th 07, 06:16 AM
Response from "Paul M. Cook" >:

> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>>
>>> I will never really understand the big attraction to kittens.
>>> Everyone ants a kitten. OK, they are cute. They are also holy
>>> terrors with more energy than they can use in a day, rarely
>>> sleep, ruin your stuff, cut and scratch you and generally just
>>> get into nothing but trouble. Now you know why mother cats kick
>>> them out after about the 12th week.

To be honest, had I know what was involved before getting Gabby we
would have probably not kept her. Sad as that sounds.

But we desperately wished to find her a no-kill zone and that was not
happening. Therefore before we could find an option AND before we
found out she is lightning in a kitten-skin suit, we were already
hooked and loving her.

>>> My youngest cat is about 16 months old now. I got her at age 6
>>> months. She ruined about 1000.00 of my things, she turned my
>>> hand into a toy and caused me many deep cuts. She terrorized
>>> one of my older cats. She kept me awake all night long. She
>>> almost got killed several times, including a fall from a high
>>> tree.
>>>
>>> She is just now starting to calm down. She seems to like human
>>> touch more and more. She misses me when I am away and is the
>>> first at the door when I come home. She bites less, she
>>> scratches less. It's showing some promise but for a while there
>>> I was considering making an oven mitt out of her ass.
>>>
>>> She will outgrow the worst of it in a year or so. Really that's
>>> all that will work. I always tell people this, get an older cat
>>> especially if you are elderly or if you have children. Don't
>>> engage her in rough play. If she gets rough, walk away. She
>>> will make the connection to roughness and playtime being over.

That seems to be the general consensus. Let her outgrow it. Another
person told me to not wish away her "kitten-hood" and I agree. I do
not want her to NOT be a kitten, I just wish it was a little calmer
kitten.

>>> And whatever you do, keep her and your child apart. Never allow
>>> them alone together unsupervised. And there is never too early
>>> a time to teach children that cats are not toys and they must
>>> not be handled roughly.

Done and done! I meant to add that in the original post too. The
children are NOT the problem, as in, they do not tease, poke, or pull
Gabby. My 20 month old has never liked playing with her because from
the beginning Gabby scratched and bit, so she was leery of being near
her. Now she'll grab one of Gabby's toys and toss it away from her.
Smart cookie!

The other children don't play or anything anymore with Gabby because
she goes overboard. So everyone knows we have to give Gabby some time.
When she calms down we'll go back to the physical.

>> -------
>> In defense of Lost, my understanding is that they weren't looking
>> to adopt a cat in the first place. They found Gabby as a stray,
>> and they decided to provide her with a home rather than taking
>> her to a shelter where she would be euthanized, which is
>> wonderful. But in general, I do agree with everything you said
>> above. I have had only two kittens in my life (one of whom was
>> Alex). All of my other cats were adopted as adults. Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.

Exactly, thanks Cindy.

> I think what she did was quite wonderful. She did not know what
> she was getting into but that is not a crime. I don't tend to mix
> words or to dwell on what I think is obvious so I may come across
> as a tad harsh. I hope that Lost hangs in there, goes the
> distance and in the end is rewarded with a nice companion animal.
> I just made the observation about kittens in general. People seem
> so surprised when they don't act like little angels, because they
> sure look like little angels. They are really overrated. I am
> sure all of my mellow, happy and easy going guys were probably
> somebody else's headache once because they were all adults when I
> got them.

Don't worry. I knew exactly what you were on about.

> Trust me, I know the feeling about evil thoughts like when little
> Noel destroyed an irreplaceable clay Chinese cooking vessel that
> was custom made. But they were just thoughts and I quickly came to
> my senses as did Lost. My little cat girl tried my patience as
> far as any woman I have ever been with.
>:) The only difference is she is still with me. So they are worth
>:it.

Exactly. Talk about evil... boy oh boy I thought some horrible stuff.
But it quickly vanished and now I just want to help her get along
before the rest of the family starts disliking her or worse, hating
her.

They are still hooked though, they just don't want to play anymore.

Thanks for the information, Paul. In the future IF we ever get another
cat it will be an older one. Although I doubt we'll get another cat at
all.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 12th 07, 06:48 AM
Response from Meghan Noecker >:

> I think we've all forgotten what it is like to be a kid getting
> scratched. I'm 35 years old, and I grew up with cats and dogs, so
> scratches are routine for me. I looked at the photo and thought,
> well, that's not too bad. A scare, but not really horrible.

Do you have children? The scare is not just a simple, "Oh no." it is a
"Oh dear God, my child!" Then from across the room seeing blood
welling up on her face, well, I think you get the point.

Anyway... it was more than just a scare if Gabby had done permanent or
severe damage. That is why I am so concerned. Who knows where Gabby
lands next time. Especially since the mini-ninja posted up on a spot
that is roughly at the same height as my child's face.

I do not feel that my children need to live in fear of when next Gabby
is going to attack them.

Nor do I want to live in fear wondering when it will happen and how
many scars my BEAUTIFUL UNSCARRED baby has to endure just so this cat
doesn't have to live on the streets.

See, we are animal lovers, but I refuse to get in line with some of the
extremists I have seen in this group who basically claim your life ends
when you decided to take care of a cat.

I have heard:

1. Don't worry about cuts, scratches, and bites.
2. Don't put up Christmas trees during Christmas.
3. Don't have expensive things.
4. Don't have nice curtains.
5. Keep your children away from the cat.
6. Hide in a room if the cat is going berserk.
7. Keep other animals locked up, in another room, or in some form of
kennel until the cat gets used to them.
8. And a slew of other depressing things that SHOULD NOT take place.

I am simply amazed to be honest what we have had to go through in less
than 4 weeks with Gabby. We have TONS of animals of all types of
species and never have we encountered this type of problem. Nor have
we been unable to train them so to speak. Gabby simply refuses to
learn or from what I have seen in this group in my short time here is
that, that is just how cats are.

So, despite this sounding like I was jumping on you (I wasn't,
seriously) I am just saying, it does not matter how bad it was. It was
something my child should not have to endure.

And if I believed that our only option was to live in fear of being
attacked randomly and bleed constantly, I would pull Gabby out from
under my thigh where she always buries herself at night and toss her
out the frickin' door. I believe things will get better though, and
with love and patience her chances get EVEN BETTER. So, I think Gabby
is going to make it but already there is dissension among the ranks.

(And to note for the record again, this was just a rant about living
comfortably with animals. I was not trying to be rude or disparage
what you said.)

And since I have your attention, I have been wanting to say 2 things
for a while now.

1. Your Zoo Crew is awesome. BEAUTIFUL animals, wow.

2. Do you own those Friesians or just photograph ones you have come
across... or... ?

Thanks.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 12th 07, 07:11 AM
Response from "Sheelagh >o<" >:

> On 10 Oct, 20:18, "-Lost" > wrote:
>> Response from "Sheelagh >o<" >:
>>
>> >> I do think its funny though that no one has said, "Oh, your
>> >> poor daughter, is she OK?" It's only, "Give the cat another
>> >> shot!" HAHAHA!
>>
>> > OOP's Ouch!!
>> > I deserved that one Lol :o)
>>
>> Aw, it's OK, Sheelagh. I did not mean it in a bad way. I just
>> thought it was funny.
>>
>> > Sorry, next time I will think a little harder before
>> > responding. I have 5 kids too, so I know what you mean,
>>
>> Wow. You are in the same boat as me. I have all girls, how
>> about you?
>>
>
> Katie 21,
> Luke 18,
> Ross17,
> Jack14,
> Tilly 11
> So a girl @ each end & 3 boys in the middle....

I wanted a boy so badly. I wouldn't give up my girls for the world
though.

> All girls..?!!! Wow, that is a lot of weddings you have to save
> for ( in the UK it is traditional that the Bride's parent's have
> to foot the bill, but not always)

Ugh... I believe that is the tradition here in America as well. I wish
we were back in Ireland, then everybody would chip in. : )

Plus it would not be as expensive as back home.

> I have one @ University (Kt) Having just finished her 1st degree,
> she has just started on a Master of Arts, in social health care. A
> very expensive venture, & another fund to pay towards, Lol,. The
> elder boys are @ college doing A'levels, & the younger two are
> still @ school. All worth while though. The best thing you can
> give your child apart from love, is a good education & morals too.
>
> I haven't forgotten what it was like when they were little either.
> Both Jack & Tilly were extremely premature. Jack was born @ 26wks
> gestation @2LB 6 OZ, & Tilly was born @ 27 wks @870GRMS., so it
> felt like they were little forever- but like everything, it passes
> so quickly, & as most other here say, you don't realise how lucky
> you are until you don't have it anymore. That applies to family,
> children, pets & friends & all the things that make life what it
> is today.

That is so great that Jack and Tilly are doing great now. It brought a
HUGE smile to my face when I scrolled back up to see their ages. That
is just great.

> Gabby will slow down over the next 6 months or so, & become part
> of the furniture so to speak. She is @ the toddler stage in kitten
> - hood. It won't last forever, & you will look back & laugh about
> this one day :o)

Oh jeez I sure hope so. We are going to stick it out a bit more, but
like I told Meghan, mostly everyone is a little skittish of Gabby now.
Basically, myself and the other furballs and reptiles that can take
care of themselves are the only ones who can control Gabby and are not
bothered by her. Heck, she even stops playing when I want her to (for
the most part). With the others she attacks relentlessly.

Well, the dogs can defend themselves but like I initially thought they
are the sweet and gentle beasts that I knew they were. So they leave
Gabby alone, even when she is stuck tight to their tail as they barrel
through the house trying to shake her.

> Most of my cat's are pedigree cats, simply because I used to breed
> cats. One day I woke up after a very difficult period with my
> cats. we went through Ring worm, then I had a vet tell me that
> after operating on one of my queens, that her eye's & nose were
> running because she was looking for attention. In actual fact, she
> caught cat flu @ the veterinary surgery, came home with it, &
> passed it on to all of my other cats including a final litter of
> kittens. The kittens died, & the vet bill came to a total of over
> $2,000!! Needless to say, I changed vets after liberating Lilly
> (seal point birman with flu), & took her straight down the road to
> another vet, as well as the rest of the cats, to make sure there
> were no other problems.
>
> I missed breeding, but knew I had done the right thing- Breeders
> are part of the problem (But IMHO I think it is the kitten mills
> that are the greatest problem- not the dedicated breeders who do
> things as they should be done.) If someone wants a pedigree cat,
> they are going to get one whatever you say to try & convince them
> that there are millions of cats out there crying out for homes.
> It's human nature I believe.

I have seen a lot of people in the cats and dogs group talk about how
they hated breeders and wished them ill, but I do not understand that
at all.

The only thing I hate are farms and mills.

> I don't regret it, & when talking about the experience on this
> group, Wendy proposed that it might be an idea to take in pregnant
> queens from cat agencies (mainly the Cat Protection League). I
> took her up on that, & I've never looked back. Most months it was
> a struggle to break even, but now I get support to care for
> cats-moral & financial, which makes it all a lot less stressful
> too. I have taken on 2 full time moggies though. Ringo the orange
> tabby, & Lucy(fur), who is the black cat. Ringo owns Ross, &
> Lucy(fur!!) owns our daughter, Tilly.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/sheelaghmadden/OURCURRENTFELINEFAMILY
> 02

> Here are a few photos of the cats, so that you can visualise them
> if I speak about them.

VERY beautiful cats!

> PS: Yes, I did sue the vet, & she made me an out of court
> settlement last week. The money was helpful, but knowing that she
> has been banned from practising as a veterinary surgeon is even
> better. She nearly killed every cat we have, & they are close
> family members..... Someone has to stand up for their rights, so I
> did!

Good for you! And the kitties involved.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sherry
October 12th 07, 02:33 PM
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes anyway.

When you find a stray cat, there isn't a commandment handed down in
stone
that says said cat is sealed to you for the rest of its natural life.

It *is*, however, your responsibility, IMO, to neuter and vet the cat
and find
it a loving home. To diligently and responsibly screen adoptors until
you have assurance that this cat will never know hunger, or neglect.
To
followup on the adoption, and leave the option open that in the event
the
new owner can't keep it, they must contact you first (I always had
nightmares
about my stray cats being given away to unsuitable homes in that
event)

That said, some cats just don't fit in with children. I have one. He
is two years
old now and still attacks me if outside stressors have him agitated. I
know when
to completely leave him alone. He would *never* be suitable in a house
with
children.

I think cindy's suggestions re: soft paws is a good one. As your kitty
ages, he
may settle down. But if you exhaust your possibilities, and you still
feel that the kitty is a danger to your child, you might consider re-
homing
him to a quieter household. (Children would agitate Bosley horribly).

Good luck. BTW, there is a product over-the-counter called "Scarzone"
that
helps small scarring disappear. I've used it on cat scratches and it
seems
to help.

Sherry

On Oct 12, 12:16 am, "-Lost" > wrote:
> Response from "Paul M. Cook" >:
>
> > "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]
>
> >>> I will never really understand the big attraction to kittens.
> >>> Everyone ants a kitten. OK, they are cute. They are also holy
> >>> terrors with more energy than they can use in a day, rarely
> >>> sleep, ruin your stuff, cut and scratch you and generally just
> >>> get into nothing but trouble. Now you know why mother cats kick
> >>> them out after about the 12th week.
>
> To be honest, had I know what was involved before getting Gabby we
> would have probably not kept her. Sad as that sounds.
>
> But we desperately wished to find her a no-kill zone and that was not
> happening. Therefore before we could find an option AND before we
> found out she is lightning in a kitten-skin suit, we were already
> hooked and loving her.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> My youngest cat is about 16 months old now. I got her at age 6
> >>> months. She ruined about 1000.00 of my things, she turned my
> >>> hand into a toy and caused me many deep cuts. She terrorized
> >>> one of my older cats. She kept me awake all night long. She
> >>> almost got killed several times, including a fall from a high
> >>> tree.
>
> >>> She is just now starting to calm down. She seems to like human
> >>> touch more and more. She misses me when I am away and is the
> >>> first at the door when I come home. She bites less, she
> >>> scratches less. It's showing some promise but for a while there
> >>> I was considering making an oven mitt out of her ass.
>
> >>> She will outgrow the worst of it in a year or so. Really that's
> >>> all that will work. I always tell people this, get an older cat
> >>> especially if you are elderly or if you have children. Don't
> >>> engage her in rough play. If she gets rough, walk away. She
> >>> will make the connection to roughness and playtime being over.
>
> That seems to be the general consensus. Let her outgrow it. Another
> person told me to not wish away her "kitten-hood" and I agree. I do
> not want her to NOT be a kitten, I just wish it was a little calmer
> kitten.
>
> >>> And whatever you do, keep her and your child apart. Never allow
> >>> them alone together unsupervised. And there is never too early
> >>> a time to teach children that cats are not toys and they must
> >>> not be handled roughly.
>
> Done and done! I meant to add that in the original post too. The
> children are NOT the problem, as in, they do not tease, poke, or pull
> Gabby. My 20 month old has never liked playing with her because from
> the beginning Gabby scratched and bit, so she was leery of being near
> her. Now she'll grab one of Gabby's toys and toss it away from her.
> Smart cookie!
>
> The other children don't play or anything anymore with Gabby because
> she goes overboard. So everyone knows we have to give Gabby some time.
> When she calms down we'll go back to the physical.
>
> >> -------
> >> In defense of Lost, my understanding is that they weren't looking
> >> to adopt a cat in the first place. They found Gabby as a stray,
> >> and they decided to provide her with a home rather than taking
> >> her to a shelter where she would be euthanized, which is
> >> wonderful. But in general, I do agree with everything you said
> >> above. I have had only two kittens in my life (one of whom was
> >> Alex). All of my other cats were adopted as adults. Best regards,
> >> ---Cindy S.
>
> Exactly, thanks Cindy.
>
> > I think what she did was quite wonderful. She did not know what
> > she was getting into but that is not a crime. I don't tend to mix
> > words or to dwell on what I think is obvious so I may come across
> > as a tad harsh. I hope that Lost hangs in there, goes the
> > distance and in the end is rewarded with a nice companion animal.
> > I just made the observation about kittens in general. People seem
> > so surprised when they don't act like little angels, because they
> > sure look like little angels. They are really overrated. I am
> > sure all of my mellow, happy and easy going guys were probably
> > somebody else's headache once because they were all adults when I
> > got them.
>
> Don't worry. I knew exactly what you were on about.
>
> > Trust me, I know the feeling about evil thoughts like when little
> > Noel destroyed an irreplaceable clay Chinese cooking vessel that
> > was custom made. But they were just thoughts and I quickly came to
> > my senses as did Lost. My little cat girl tried my patience as
> > far as any woman I have ever been with.
> >:) The only difference is she is still with me. So they are worth
> >:it.
>
> Exactly. Talk about evil... boy oh boy I thought some horrible stuff.
> But it quickly vanished and now I just want to help her get along
> before the rest of the family starts disliking her or worse, hating
> her.
>
> They are still hooked though, they just don't want to play anymore.
>
> Thanks for the information, Paul. In the future IF we ever get another
> cat it will be an older one. Although I doubt we'll get another cat at
> all.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

CatNipped[_2_]
October 12th 07, 03:29 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> OK lads and lasses, Gabby and I need your help and sagely advice,
> PLEASE, only offer information that is beneficial. I do not need to
> hear that I should have locked my child up or kept my kid from being
> able to walk around in her own home.
>
> After CatNipped suggested that we stop the roughhousing with Gabby,
> we did. It also seemed that with a mix of the "crying Uncle" method
> and a few other "scare tactics" or startling or whatnot, that she is
> totally cool with NOT fighting and playing rough.
>
> Well, Monday, Gabby started chasing down the dogs and playing more
> roughly than what they wanted to. So we have had to get on her about
> that. She immediately stops but of course goes back to it whenever
> they walk past. She is REALLY attracted to their tails wagging.
> Anyway...
>
> Today Gabby did something she has NEVER done before, leaping-wise or
> attacking. And that was that she leaped on the face of my 20 month
> old as she walked past, tearing a long claw mark down her cheek.
> Gabby leaped from the arm of the couch horizontally across to my
> daughter's face.
>
> Now, I will be completely honest with you folks... I considered
> killing Gabby. Or at the very least, taking her to the pound where I
> know they would have killed her after 5 days anyway. After I told
> them we were getting rid of her for being problematic along the lines
> of hurting one of us they would have euthanized her immediately.
>
> Then I tried to be rational about it and thought:
>
> 1. We were making the mistake of playing with her in the first
> place.
>
> Although we do not think it is unreasonable to be able to roughhouse
> with a cat. We have known cats that LOVE to brawl, but also stay
> calm as can be when you are done.
>
> Still, we could have helped reinforce that this behavior was OK.
>
> 2. She is still a kitten. She has not learned yet OR not calmed
> down yet.
>
> 3. She WAS playing.
>
> So, no sooner than I would hurt my own baby, I look down at the furry
> baby snuggled up against my thigh and think, "I would love to bounce
> you off a wall for this, but you're just a baby and that's not fair."
>
> I am calm (well, calmer than before) now and could REALLY use some
> proven methods to calm her bullying down. I say bullying, but she
> really isn't being a bully... she is being a playful kitten.
>
> Can anyone think of some methods to speed up the process of teaching
> her when playtime is over?
>
> A few notes:
>
> 1. She has PLENTY of toys.
> 2. She has PLENTY of things to climb on.
> 3. She expends PLENTY of energy.
>
> Um... I may be forgetting something, but I think that covers a few
> bases.
>
> So... any help please? And try to be constructive and as positive as
> you can be, please. I could have just given up on Gabby, but realize
> I could have been part of the problem and I am willing to rectify
> that.
>
> Thanks, people. I appreciate your time. Oh, and here is what she
> did to my 20 month old.
>
> http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gabbysmistakefe9.png
>
> That is the right side of the corner of her mouth, and I believe that
> is a hair of mine going horizontally across it that I did not notice
> until now.
>
> Again, thanks...

I hope I'm not too late with this answer (I've been really busy at work).

First, I'm a mother and, now, a grandmother, so I totally understand your
reaction to the injury to your daughter. *Any* mother of *any* species
would have felt (at least momentarily) a killing rage - a mother's
protectiveness is hard-wired into us from millions of years of evolution
refining the techniques for the actions that maintain the continued
existance of a species. I'm glad you were able to get over it quickly and
look at the situation (somewhat) calmly.

Now, having looked at the scratch, while I would never want one of my
children or graindchildren or *any* child to be hurt in any way, shape, or
form, realistically, the injury is *VERY* minor. I'd advise you to keep it
clean, use peroxide for the initial cleaning and then "Neosporin + Pain"
until it is healed (don't continue to use the peroxide after the initial
cleaning because it will actually delay the healing process - killing off
the new tissue growth as wel as the bacteria). It won't even leave a mark
after it's healed.

I don't think this was a viscious attack on Gabby's part (if you have ever
seen the results to a human of a true cat attack you would realize this (I
was once in the emergency room for 5 hours and had to have stitiches in both
arms, a tetanus shot and had to take antibiotics for 10 days - and the
bone-deep bites still got infected - all this from trying to pick up a cat I
found hurt on the side of the road).

The best/easiest/quickest solution to this problem is to buy a pair or pet
clippers at PetsMart (or you can even use human nail clippers to do this
immediately). Then clip all 18 claws on Gabby. Just be sure you don't cut
below the pink line you'll see in her claws (some pet clippers come with a
styptic pencil in case you do - but try not to because it's painful and will
be a negative reinforcement to her). She is young enough that you can make
this an enjoyable activity and get her in the habit of having them clipped.
First, every time you hold Gabby, fondle her paws - press on the pad of each
toe to extend the claws - and give her a treat after every time you do this.
After she is comfortable having her paws manipulated (and looks forward to
it because of the treats), start clipping her claws. I clip my 5's claws
every weekend even though they don't need to be clipped that often - I do it
to reinforce their good behavior with treats.

Other than that and the behavior modification you've already embarked on,
there really isn't anything else you can do - kittens are going to play as
long as they have a breath in them. It's not only natural, but it's
essential to a predator's life that they learn at a very early age how to
attack and subdue prey. As long as Gabby isn't biting, the attacking she is
doing is normal and she will outgrow it. If you don't react with anger, and
*DON'T* scare her (I don't know who told you you needed to scare her in
order to get her to stop attacking - but whoever it was doesn't know what
they were taking about - fear is one of the main *CAUSES* of animal
attacks!!), then she will eventually calm down and become nicely socialized.

As far as the scratch on your daughter - this should actually turn out to be
a *good* thing for her. She has learned that kitty has sharp feet and she
will be more careful in the future to not play rough with her pet. Human
children have to learn to respect their pets and interact with them gently.
I'm *NOT* saying this was your daughter's fault in *ANY* way (I realize she
was only walking by minding her own business), but only that it will be a
"life lesson" for her as long as you don't reinforce her fear of the cat
(stay calm and just gently tell her that kitty was just being playful and
didn't mean to hurt her - which I can assure you, Gabby didn't mean to be
hurtful or your daughter would be a *LOT* worse injured.

I'm truly sorry your baby was hurt, but I think you can all be OK again if
you handle the situation calmly.

Hugs,

CatNipped


>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
October 12th 07, 04:06 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response from Meghan Noecker >:

> (And to note for the record again, this was just a rant about living
> comfortably with animals. I was not trying to be rude or disparage
> what you said.)

LOL! Yep, I know where you're coming from. We ailurophiles can be a pretty
strident bunch when it comes to cats.

But you really *don't* want (or need) to change anything in your family's
lifestyle in order to keep Gabby - that's a ridiculous notion - and you
don't *have* to! Just remember two things... 1) any animal in its infancy
has to learn adult behavior - playfulness is really a method of learning
survival techniques and socialization (this includes humans as well) and we
all make mistakes, it's how we learn what *not* to do; and 2) any sensate
organism can be trained with good behavior modification techniques.

It takes some time, work, and lots of patience, but (just going by reading
your posts) it seems you're willing to take the time, do the work, and you
certainly have enough patience if you've put up with Gabby for this long.

When my children were young, I lucked upon a parenting class that was
amazing in how well it worked. You just need to learn the "Three Cs" -
Control, Consequences and Consistancy. This approach seems very logical
after you've heard it, but is actually counter-intuitive because of the way
most people were reared (nobody ever born came equipped with an instruction
manual). [If case you'd like to use this technique on your daughter, I'm
going to cut and paste an explantion of how this works with children after
the "=====" at the end of this post.

To boil it down simply - reward good behavior, ignore bad behavior.

The positive reinforcement will cause any sensate creature to
continue/increase the behavior you want simply because we are hard-wired to
do more of what makes us feel good.

The negative reinforcement (*NOT* punishment) will cause any sensate
creature to discontinue the behavior you don't want because we are
hard-wired to do less of what makes us feel bad (and being ignored and *not*
being made to feel good ultimately makes us feel bad).

If you just do this consistently, eventually the sensate creature whose
behavior you're trying to modify will change his/her behavior to what you
want of him/her. The only thing you have to remember is that what makes you
feel good might not necessarily be what makes a kitten feel good. You need
to learn as much as you can about cats, what makes them tick, their behavior
and body language, etc. (cats are fascinating creatures, so I never minded
the time it took me to learn more about them, but if you don't have the time
or just don't want to invest it, people here can tell you the basics).

================================================== ===============

The "Three Cs" for children.

C1 - Control, and this means control of yourself first! No screaming or
hitting in reaction to what your child does, that gives HIM control over YOU
(HE does act A, YOU have reaction B - he controls you!). It's very easy to
lose your temper and threaten or spank the child, but this only strengthens
his knowledge that he can control your actions with his. You'll usually calm
down later and regret grounding him or hitting him and then rescind the
punishment or apologize, again this puts him in control - he got his way
with no, or amended consequences.

C2 - Consequences, both good and bad as in, "If you choose to finish your
homework you'll get an extra fifteen minutes of TV tonight, if you choose to
not finish your homework you will be given two extra chores to do". ALWAYS
put it in that manner - that he is the one who is choosing his fate, not you
or anyone else. Remember to keep both the rewards and punishments
reasonable. Don't make rewards or punishments you can't keep. Don't promise
a new bike if you can't afford one, and don't threaten to "ground him for
the rest of his life" when you know that's not conceivable. Keep all things
"child-sized" - an ice cream cone is precious to a three-year-old, and a
fifteen minute time-out works better than a week's grounding, and it still
gets the point across. For older children and teenagers larger rewards or
punishments are necessary. AND CONCENTRATE ON THE REWARDS! It's long been
known that positive reinforcement is much more effective (although it may
take longer) than negative reinforcement. Always tell him the results of
EVERYTHING he may choose to do, before hand. [Side note, this was especially
hard to do with my very creative son - who would have thought to say to the
boy, before hand, "If you choose to shave the cat, you'll be given a 15
minute "time-out"??!??] Always let the child know that HE has the choice of
what will happen to him as a consequence of the way he acts. This teaches
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. It lets the child know that whatever consequences
fall upon him are the result of HIS actions (this is mostly true in
society). Always let him know that it is HIS choice and HIS actions that
receive the reward or punishment, not you arbitrarily deciding his fate or
"just being mean." Put the responsibility on HIS back, and let him learn it
well. When he whines about a punishment, calmly say, "I'm sorry, but this is
what YOU CHOSE to happen." When he is thrilled with rewards, say to him,
"You earned this yourself with YOUR CHOICE of good behavior." Remember, the
more praise he gets for his good behavior, the harder he will strive to be
good - it's human nature to want to be praised and we will work VERY hard to
achieve it.

C3 - Consistency, consistency, consistency - CUBED!! Once you set the
consequences, carry through, IMMEDIATELY, EVERY TIME, with both the rewards
and the punishment (the immediate part is especially essential, because
children have a different concept of time than we do). After you have this
working for a bit and the child is behaving like a little angel for weeks,
you might be tempted to let him get by with a little misbehavior just this
once - BIG MISTAKE! This will scrap all the work you've done and you'll have
to start all over again. Children will always test the limits. My
pediatrician put it like this "Parents are safety rails for a child. If you
were on an unfamiliar balcony, wouldn't you reach out and shake the railings
to see if they were sturdy and dependable before leaning your weight on
them?" When he learns that there is a consequence to his every action, EVERY
SINGLE TIME, then it will stop being a performance and become a part of his
mentality. Think about it in the adult world. If a many-times-convicted
thief has not stolen for three years then steals again, do we say, "Well,
you've been so good for three years, we'll just let you go on this one." NO
WAY, he gets convicted and sent to jail yet again!

All of this seems very simple, condensed down this way, but there was a lot
more we had to learn along with the Three Cs. The program lasted two years,
going to three-hour "classes", four times a week. It was very hard to change
MY behavior (it is so hard to look at your prized antique vase shattered on
the floor and not scream just a little!) I was also working against
everything I'd learned from "the way I was raised," - early learning goes
very deep. I think four years of high school training might be enough for
most teens (if they were taught well when they were younger).

[Another side note... The Three Cs works just as well on another adult as it
does on a child. It's human nature to want and work for good strokes and to
avoid what hurts. Try it on your spouse or boss! ;> ]

================================================== ===============

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped[_2_]
October 12th 07, 04:28 PM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

> The "Three Cs" for children.
^^^ BTW, also works on adults and animals.

For those who want to test the efficacy of this technique, you can conduct
the following experiment that I once tried.

Without *any* verbal cues.... every time my significant other (SO) called
me "baby" I would lean in towards him, smile sweetly, and gently caress the
back of his neck or his cheek. Whenever he called me by my name or any
other endearment such as "honey" or "sweetie", I would slowly stop smiling
and lean a bit backwards away from him. Neither of these moves were
exaggerated in any way, I deliberately kept them as subtle as possible to be
sure I was giving this a fair trial. And, again, I didn't say a single word
as I did this, I used only these actions and didn't explain in any way what
I was doing or why.

After only two weeks, almost every other word out of his mouth when talking
to me was "baby"! Don't believe me - try it! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

-Lost
October 12th 07, 05:46 PM
Response from Sherry >:

> I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes anyway.

I don't see why you should, but I am sure someone will prove me wrong.
: )

> When you find a stray cat, there isn't a commandment handed down
> in stone
> that says said cat is sealed to you for the rest of its natural
> life.
>
> It *is*, however, your responsibility, IMO, to neuter and vet the
> cat and find
> it a loving home. To diligently and responsibly screen adoptors
> until you have assurance that this cat will never know hunger, or
> neglect. To
> followup on the adoption, and leave the option open that in the
> event the
> new owner can't keep it, they must contact you first (I always had
> nightmares
> about my stray cats being given away to unsuitable homes in that
> event)

Agreed. In fact, *I* was the one initially who said we shouldn't do
this (make Gabby part of the family). If anything we should have taken
care of immediate problems and continued to search for a home. It was
my spouse who convinced me to give it a go, well, that and the children
really wanted a kitty. You'd think 15 or so species of wonderful
animals would be enough, but obviously not.

Sadly, midway through the second post of CatNipped's my spouse called
to tell me they have had enough. Well, I have not had enough. So I
informed them of 2 things:

1. YOU are the one who wanted to save this damn cat to begin with.
And now that I have invested so much time and effort and we have
invested so much money in her, you want to get rid of her? We need to
talk more about this when you get home.

Their argument was that EVERYONE is miserable. Not true... the oldest
children have been away on holiday since the beginning of the week with
my mother. And they have already informed me they want to stick it
out. Other than that only the dogs are having a difficult time with
Gabby.

I am wary of her next attack on my youngest child, but don't feel as of
yet it is so problematic that she deserves the boot. What's that old
saying?

Once is nothing, twice is coincidence, three times and it was meant to
be. Or something like that.

2. I honestly think the problem is YOU not liking how much work you
have to put forth.

My spouse cannot get Gabby to leave them alone, they hate cleaning the
litter box which I promptly remind them of after every major um...
well, you know, they hate me waking them up in the middle of the night
because Gabby is crying, basically, they hate having this much
responsibility again.

In fairness we have put a LOT of time and years into this family (by
family I mean the family and the animal family). So I understand them
not wanting to take on this responsibility, but your post proves
EXACTLY my point...

....it is THEIR responsibility once they made the choice to do ANYTHING
other than leave that kitten (now known as Gabby) alone.

So, I plan on using CatNipped's post to help strengthen their resolve
in helping Gabby with me, because she isn't going anywhere. At least
not anytime soon. Also, I plan on using this response to make them
feel like crap for wanting to give up. HAHAHA!

> That said, some cats just don't fit in with children. I have one.
> He is two years
> old now and still attacks me if outside stressors have him
> agitated. I know when
> to completely leave him alone. He would *never* be suitable in a
> house with
> children.

See my question further down about Bosley and children.

> I think cindy's suggestions re: soft paws is a good one. As your
> kitty ages, he
> may settle down. But if you exhaust your possibilities, and you
> still feel that the kitty is a danger to your child, you might
> consider re- homing
> him to a quieter household. (Children would agitate Bosley
> horribly).

In general he would be bothered by children? Or just problematic
children?

I am trying to get a good understanding here because I thought it would
have to be a bothersome child or whatnot. In this scenario though it
is just a really hyper Gabby.

> Good luck. BTW, there is a product over-the-counter called
> "Scarzone" that
> helps small scarring disappear. I've used it on cat scratches and
> it seems
> to help.

Thank you very much, Sherry. I will check it out.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
October 12th 07, 06:05 PM
"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>>
>>> I will never really understand the big attraction to kittens. Everyone
>>> ants a kitten. OK, they are cute. They are also holy terrors with more
>>> energy than they can use in a day, rarely sleep, ruin your stuff, cut
>>> and scratch you and generally just get into nothing but trouble. Now
>>> you know why mother cats kick them out after about the 12th week.
>>>
>>> My youngest cat is about 16 months old now. I got her at age 6 months.
>>> She ruined about 1000.00 of my things, she turned my hand into a toy and
>>> caused me many deep cuts. She terrorized one of my older cats. She
>>> kept me awake all night long. She almost got killed several times,
>>> including a fall from a high tree.
>>>
>>> She is just now starting to calm down. She seems to like human touch
>>> more and more. She misses me when I am away and is the first at the
>>> door when I come home. She bites less, she scratches less. It's
>>> showing some promise but for a while there I was considering making an
>>> oven mitt out of her ass.
>>>
>>> She will outgrow the worst of it in a year or so. Really that's all
>>> that will work. I always tell people this, get an older cat especially
>>> if you are elderly or if you have children. Don't engage her in rough
>>> play. If she gets rough, walk away. She will make the connection to
>>> roughness and playtime being over.
>>>
>>> And whatever you do, keep her and your child apart. Never allow them
>>> alone together unsupervised. And there is never too early a time to
>>> teach children that cats are not toys and they must not be handled
>>> roughly.
>> -------
>> In defense of Lost, my understanding is that they weren't looking to
>> adopt a cat in the first place. They found Gabby as a stray, and they
>> decided to provide her with a home rather than taking her to a shelter
>> where she would be euthanized, which is wonderful. But in general, I do
>> agree with everything you said above. I have had only two kittens in my
>> life (one of whom was Alex). All of my other cats were adopted as adults.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>
> I think what she did was quite wonderful. She did not know what she was
> getting into but that is not a crime. I don't tend to mix words or to
> dwell on what I think is obvious so I may come across as a tad harsh. I
> hope that Lost hangs in there, goes the distance and in the end is
> rewarded with a nice companion animal. I just made the observation about
> kittens in general. People seem so surprised when they don't act like
> little angels, because they sure look like little angels. They are really
> overrated. I am sure all of my mellow, happy and easy going guys were
> probably somebody else's headache once because they were all adults when I
> got them.
>
> Trust me, I know the feeling about evil thoughts like when little Noel
> destroyed an irreplaceable clay Chinese cooking vessel that was custom
> made. But they were just thoughts and I quickly came to my senses as did
> Lost. My little cat girl tried my patience as far as any woman I have
> ever been with. :) The only difference is she is still with me. So they
> are worth it.


Cuteness is the *ONLY* thing that keeps the young of any species alive
through their "teen-ages" years. If they weren't so darn cute, their own
mothers would kill them (and I say this as a mother)! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped[_2_]
October 12th 07, 06:09 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response from "Paul M. Cook" >:
>
>> "cindys" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>
>>>> I will never really understand the big attraction to kittens.
>>>> Everyone ants a kitten. OK, they are cute. They are also holy
>>>> terrors with more energy than they can use in a day, rarely
>>>> sleep, ruin your stuff, cut and scratch you and generally just
>>>> get into nothing but trouble. Now you know why mother cats kick
>>>> them out after about the 12th week.
>
> To be honest, had I know what was involved before getting Gabby we
> would have probably not kept her. Sad as that sounds.
>
> But we desperately wished to find her a no-kill zone and that was not
> happening. Therefore before we could find an option AND before we
> found out she is lightning in a kitten-skin suit, we were already
> hooked and loving her.
>
>>>> My youngest cat is about 16 months old now. I got her at age 6
>>>> months. She ruined about 1000.00 of my things, she turned my
>>>> hand into a toy and caused me many deep cuts. She terrorized
>>>> one of my older cats. She kept me awake all night long. She
>>>> almost got killed several times, including a fall from a high
>>>> tree.
>>>>
>>>> She is just now starting to calm down. She seems to like human
>>>> touch more and more. She misses me when I am away and is the
>>>> first at the door when I come home. She bites less, she
>>>> scratches less. It's showing some promise but for a while there
>>>> I was considering making an oven mitt out of her ass.
>>>>
>>>> She will outgrow the worst of it in a year or so. Really that's
>>>> all that will work. I always tell people this, get an older cat
>>>> especially if you are elderly or if you have children. Don't
>>>> engage her in rough play. If she gets rough, walk away. She
>>>> will make the connection to roughness and playtime being over.
>
> That seems to be the general consensus. Let her outgrow it. Another
> person told me to not wish away her "kitten-hood" and I agree. I do
> not want her to NOT be a kitten, I just wish it was a little calmer
> kitten.

Sorry, there's no such thing as a calm kitten unless they are critically
ill. Archer has a *broken leg* and, if he escapes me, dashes through the
house like greased lightning - even up and down the stairs and straight up
our 6 foot cat tree!

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
>>>> And whatever you do, keep her and your child apart. Never allow
>>>> them alone together unsupervised. And there is never too early
>>>> a time to teach children that cats are not toys and they must
>>>> not be handled roughly.
>
> Done and done! I meant to add that in the original post too. The
> children are NOT the problem, as in, they do not tease, poke, or pull
> Gabby. My 20 month old has never liked playing with her because from
> the beginning Gabby scratched and bit, so she was leery of being near
> her. Now she'll grab one of Gabby's toys and toss it away from her.
> Smart cookie!
>
> The other children don't play or anything anymore with Gabby because
> she goes overboard. So everyone knows we have to give Gabby some time.
> When she calms down we'll go back to the physical.
>
>>> -------
>>> In defense of Lost, my understanding is that they weren't looking
>>> to adopt a cat in the first place. They found Gabby as a stray,
>>> and they decided to provide her with a home rather than taking
>>> her to a shelter where she would be euthanized, which is
>>> wonderful. But in general, I do agree with everything you said
>>> above. I have had only two kittens in my life (one of whom was
>>> Alex). All of my other cats were adopted as adults. Best regards,
>>> ---Cindy S.
>
> Exactly, thanks Cindy.
>
>> I think what she did was quite wonderful. She did not know what
>> she was getting into but that is not a crime. I don't tend to mix
>> words or to dwell on what I think is obvious so I may come across
>> as a tad harsh. I hope that Lost hangs in there, goes the
>> distance and in the end is rewarded with a nice companion animal.
>> I just made the observation about kittens in general. People seem
>> so surprised when they don't act like little angels, because they
>> sure look like little angels. They are really overrated. I am
>> sure all of my mellow, happy and easy going guys were probably
>> somebody else's headache once because they were all adults when I
>> got them.
>
> Don't worry. I knew exactly what you were on about.
>
>> Trust me, I know the feeling about evil thoughts like when little
>> Noel destroyed an irreplaceable clay Chinese cooking vessel that
>> was custom made. But they were just thoughts and I quickly came to
>> my senses as did Lost. My little cat girl tried my patience as
>> far as any woman I have ever been with.
>>:) The only difference is she is still with me. So they are worth
>>:it.
>
> Exactly. Talk about evil... boy oh boy I thought some horrible stuff.
> But it quickly vanished and now I just want to help her get along
> before the rest of the family starts disliking her or worse, hating
> her.
>
> They are still hooked though, they just don't want to play anymore.
>
> Thanks for the information, Paul. In the future IF we ever get another
> cat it will be an older one. Although I doubt we'll get another cat at
> all.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 12th 07, 06:18 PM
Response from "CatNipped" >:

> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Response from Meghan Noecker >:
>
>> (And to note for the record again, this was just a rant about
>> living comfortably with animals. I was not trying to be rude or
>> disparage what you said.)
>
> LOL! Yep, I know where you're coming from. We ailurophiles can
> be a pretty strident bunch when it comes to cats.
>
> But you really *don't* want (or need) to change anything in your
> family's lifestyle in order to keep Gabby - that's a ridiculous
> notion - and you don't *have* to! Just remember two things... 1)
> any animal in its infancy has to learn adult behavior -
> playfulness is really a method of learning survival techniques and
> socialization (this includes humans as well) and we all make
> mistakes, it's how we learn what *not* to do; and 2) any sensate
> organism can be trained with good behavior modification
> techniques.

Exactly.

> It takes some time, work, and lots of patience, but (just going by
> reading your posts) it seems you're willing to take the time, do
> the work, and you certainly have enough patience if you've put up
> with Gabby for this long.

Well, like I just explained to Sherry, my spouse has just told me about
an hour ago that they were done. That maybe it was time to get rid of
Gabby.

I have pretty much put my foot down and said it is not going to happen.
They simply were not prepared (like they thought they were) to handle a
kitten. I think what you have illustrated here for us is going to be
beneficial in changing their mind.

Either that or I am going to have to bash them over the head with
something because Gabby isn't going. Have I made that clear yet?
Haha!

I personally think that when things work out we are all going to be
thankful we stuck through it.

<snip>

Thanks for all of that helpful information, CatNipped.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
October 12th 07, 06:35 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response from "CatNipped" >:
>
>> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Response from Meghan Noecker >:
>>
>>> (And to note for the record again, this was just a rant about
>>> living comfortably with animals. I was not trying to be rude or
>>> disparage what you said.)
>>
>> LOL! Yep, I know where you're coming from. We ailurophiles can
>> be a pretty strident bunch when it comes to cats.
>>
>> But you really *don't* want (or need) to change anything in your
>> family's lifestyle in order to keep Gabby - that's a ridiculous
>> notion - and you don't *have* to! Just remember two things... 1)
>> any animal in its infancy has to learn adult behavior -
>> playfulness is really a method of learning survival techniques and
>> socialization (this includes humans as well) and we all make
>> mistakes, it's how we learn what *not* to do; and 2) any sensate
>> organism can be trained with good behavior modification
>> techniques.
>
> Exactly.
>
>> It takes some time, work, and lots of patience, but (just going by
>> reading your posts) it seems you're willing to take the time, do
>> the work, and you certainly have enough patience if you've put up
>> with Gabby for this long.
>
> Well, like I just explained to Sherry, my spouse has just told me about
> an hour ago that they were done. That maybe it was time to get rid of
> Gabby.
>
> I have pretty much put my foot down and said it is not going to happen.
> They simply were not prepared (like they thought they were) to handle a
> kitten. I think what you have illustrated here for us is going to be
> beneficial in changing their mind.
>
> Either that or I am going to have to bash them over the head with
> something because Gabby isn't going. Have I made that clear yet?
> Haha!
>
> I personally think that when things work out we are all going to be
> thankful we stuck through it.

That is so true! When I lost my 17-year-old Bandit a few month ago, I felt
like someone ripped out a piece of my heart. When I remember her, I think
about her licking my face when I cried, coming over to let me hug her like a
teddy bear when I went to sleep, keeping me company and purring my pain away
when I was sick or hurt. I *don't* think about her terrorizing the entire
household when she was a kitten (if you read this story you'll get some idea
of what she was like as a kitten - and I promise you, there wasn't a whole
lot of exaggeration in the tale:
http://www.possibleplaces.com/catnipped/Bandit_Bad_Ass.asp).

My Sammy (AKA Samazon) is just now getting out of kitten-hood - here are
some tales of her depredations:
http://www.possibleplaces.com/catnipped/With_Mommy.asp.

Another gift nature gives us is the ability to forget pain (if not, I don't
think there's a woman alive who would have a second child if she could
really remember what labor felt like ;>).

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for all of that helpful information, CatNipped.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 12th 07, 07:46 PM
Response from "CatNipped" >:

>> I personally think that when things work out we are all going to
>> be thankful we stuck through it.
>
> That is so true! When I lost my 17-year-old Bandit a few month
> ago, I felt like someone ripped out a piece of my heart. When I
> remember her, I think about her licking my face when I cried,
> coming over to let me hug her like a teddy bear when I went to
> sleep, keeping me company and purring my pain away when I was sick
> or hurt. I *don't* think about her terrorizing the entire
> household when she was a kitten (if you read this story you'll get
> some idea of what she was like as a kitten - and I promise you,
> there wasn't a whole lot of exaggeration in the tale:
> http://www.possibleplaces.com/catnipped/Bandit_Bad_Ass.asp).

Oh my, she definitely sounds like she was a handful. Although I
think she would be upset at one thing... you let the cat out of the
bag so to speak. If Sammy was able to chew on Bandit's tail and
Bandit didn't beat her for it, then maybe Bandit had a LITTLE TINY
BIT of softness to her? : )

> My Sammy (AKA Samazon) is just now getting out of kitten-hood -
> here are some tales of her depredations:
> http://www.possibleplaces.com/catnipped/With_Mommy.asp.

Wow. I only had time to read the make-up story, but I am definitely
going to make time to read more.

I swear the entire time I was reading the 2nd story I kept thinking
to myself how this would make a very fun and endearing play. I would
definitely pay for a ticket to act that good!

Although if you do ever make it a play I want to be a producer!

Thanks for those heartwarming glimpses of your family, CatNipped. I
appreciate it.

Hehe... thanks to your pages I finally know what "DH" stands for.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
October 12th 07, 08:09 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response from "CatNipped" >:
>
>>> I personally think that when things work out we are all going to
>>> be thankful we stuck through it.
>>
>> That is so true! When I lost my 17-year-old Bandit a few month
>> ago, I felt like someone ripped out a piece of my heart. When I
>> remember her, I think about her licking my face when I cried,
>> coming over to let me hug her like a teddy bear when I went to
>> sleep, keeping me company and purring my pain away when I was sick
>> or hurt. I *don't* think about her terrorizing the entire
>> household when she was a kitten (if you read this story you'll get
>> some idea of what she was like as a kitten - and I promise you,
>> there wasn't a whole lot of exaggeration in the tale:
>> http://www.possibleplaces.com/catnipped/Bandit_Bad_Ass.asp).
>
> Oh my, she definitely sounds like she was a handful. Although I
> think she would be upset at one thing... you let the cat out of the
> bag so to speak. If Sammy was able to chew on Bandit's tail and
> Bandit didn't beat her for it, then maybe Bandit had a LITTLE TINY
> BIT of softness to her? : )

Yep, but don't let on - her companions at the Rainbow Bridge would tease her
unmercifully if they new <smiling tearfully>.

>
>> My Sammy (AKA Samazon) is just now getting out of kitten-hood -
>> here are some tales of her depredations:
>> http://www.possibleplaces.com/catnipped/With_Mommy.asp.
>
> Wow. I only had time to read the make-up story, but I am definitely
> going to make time to read more.
>
> I swear the entire time I was reading the 2nd story I kept thinking
> to myself how this would make a very fun and endearing play. I would
> definitely pay for a ticket to act that good!

I don't think anyone who has not had a kitten would believe a minute of it -
and anyone who has had a kitten has already lived through it! ;>

>
> Although if you do ever make it a play I want to be a producer!
>
> Thanks for those heartwarming glimpses of your family, CatNipped. I
> appreciate it.

You're welcome!

>
> Hehe... thanks to your pages I finally know what "DH" stands for.

LOL! We forget sometimes that newbies to a group don't know all the
short-hand we use - sorry. [BTW, DH can also stand for dick head depending
on what he's done or not done lately! ;>]

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 13th 07, 11:59 PM
Gabby is STILL pushing the limits. Today during their normal play I
could hear Pudge start to whimper as Gabby bit and clawed harder and
harder, nearer and nearer to Pudge's genitalia.

Almost at the exact moment I reached down to grab Gabby away, Pudge
bit her on the face.

3 things...

1. Pudge is the KINDEST, SWEETEST dog I have ever met or had the joy
to call my doggy daughter. She has NEVER done ANYTHING like that OR
even growled at ANYONE, including my youngest child who used to tug
on her quite forcefully. So I believe Pudge did what she did only
because it hurt too much.

2. Gabby is fine. It was not a vicious mauling or even a critical
snapping of the jaws. For "us" it would have been a nip to say back
off. For Gabby, whose head can fit inside Pudge's mouth it was, "Oh
****e, the mouth of Satan himself came gnashing at my soul!" Haha!

3. Pudge, I think having realized Gabby is just a baby made it a
point to walk over to her and give her the once over -- licking her
from head to toe.

How does Gabby repay Pudge for this kindness even after Gabby went
too far?

Back leg...
http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudgelm8.jpg

Front leg...
http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge2ak1.jpg

Poor Pudge's Privates...
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge3lp2.jpg

I swear this cat is going to give someone a stroke.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sherry
October 14th 07, 03:20 AM
On Oct 12, 11:46 am, "-Lost" > wrote:
snipped
> See my question further down about Bosley and children.
>
> > I think cindy's suggestions re: soft paws is a good one. As your
> > kitty ages, he
> > may settle down. But if you exhaust your possibilities, and you
> > still feel that the kitty is a danger to your child, you might
> > consider re- homing
> > him to a quieter household. (Children would agitate Bosley
> > horribly).
>
> In general he would be bothered by children? Or just problematic
> children?

Bosley is bothered by people of any size who move suddenly, or are
loud,
or who touch him uninvited. He weighs over 20 pounds and usually goes
for the face. He just gets overstimulated easily. Even when I'm
petting him, he sends "signals" (ears back, or tail thumping)...that
he's had enough. If I don't stop, he attacks me. He's just a weird
cat.
If I know we are having company, I lock him in the bedroom. He would
*never* be suitable in a home with children. Remember though, that
your
cat sounds like he's just very hyper and playful, not so much
aggressive
like Bosley is.
I like your resolve, though. I hope things work out.
As a farm kid with dozens of pets of all species, I was scratched,
bitten,
kicked, thrown to the ground, and flogged lots of times. I still
remember
what my mother *invariably* said when I went bawling and tattling to
her:
"Well, what did *you* do to him/her/it?"

Sherry
>
> I am trying to get a good understanding here because I thought it would
> have to be a bothersome child or whatnot. In this scenario though it
> is just a really hyper Gabby.
>
> > Good luck. BTW, there is a product over-the-counter called
> > "Scarzone" that
> > helps small scarring disappear. I've used it on cat scratches and
> > it seems
> > to help.
>
> Thank you very much, Sherry. I will check it out.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -

CatNipped[_2_]
October 14th 07, 05:56 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Gabby is STILL pushing the limits. Today during their normal play I
> could hear Pudge start to whimper as Gabby bit and clawed harder and
> harder, nearer and nearer to Pudge's genitalia.
>
> Almost at the exact moment I reached down to grab Gabby away, Pudge
> bit her on the face.
>
> 3 things...
>
> 1. Pudge is the KINDEST, SWEETEST dog I have ever met or had the joy
> to call my doggy daughter. She has NEVER done ANYTHING like that OR
> even growled at ANYONE, including my youngest child who used to tug
> on her quite forcefully. So I believe Pudge did what she did only
> because it hurt too much.
>
> 2. Gabby is fine. It was not a vicious mauling or even a critical
> snapping of the jaws. For "us" it would have been a nip to say back
> off. For Gabby, whose head can fit inside Pudge's mouth it was, "Oh
> ****e, the mouth of Satan himself came gnashing at my soul!" Haha!
>
> 3. Pudge, I think having realized Gabby is just a baby made it a
> point to walk over to her and give her the once over -- licking her
> from head to toe.
>
> How does Gabby repay Pudge for this kindness even after Gabby went
> too far?
>
> Back leg...
> http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudgelm8.jpg
>
> Front leg...
> http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge2ak1.jpg
>
> Poor Pudge's Privates...
> http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge3lp2.jpg
>
> I swear this cat is going to give someone a stroke.

LOL! Sorry, I know this is hard for you, but a picture of a tiny kitten
taking on a large dog - and *winning* is just too funny. I first got my
friend (a former dog owner) hooked on cats when a mother cat I was fostering
had kittens in my closet. I was showing them to her when mamma cat was out
getting a bite to eat. My large, friendly cocker spaniel took the
opportunity to come into my room to see what all the fuss was about. My
friend had the tiny bitties on the floor in front of her - they were about
maybe a week old and could barely stand, their eyes were still sealed shut -
but they heard and smelled the dog. *ALL* of those blind, helpless little
kittens stood with their backs arched, their fur all standing out on end and
hissing their little brains out at this monster who was about 100 times
their size - the monster retreated rather quickly. My friend was so amazed
at their courage (I didn't tell her it was kitten stupidity), and the "never
give up, never say die, fight to the death" attitude, she immediately put
dibs on adopting one of them.

Your pictures just reminded me of this. If you ever watch Animal Planet
you'll see kittens attacking their dog friends all the time. Did Pudge have
any actual scratches or bite marks on her? It would be very odd for a
kitten that small to do any real damage to a much larger dog. Some dogs
whine when they are in an unfamiliar situation and don't know what to do.
If Pudge has never been around kittens before she may not know how to play
with Gabby, and may feel uncomfortable at first. I think once they get to
know each other better they'll have a lot more fun (unless Pudge is a very
old dog) - puppies play even rougher than kittens, so I'm sure it's not a
case of Pudge being hurt. And as you stated, she does have her own
defenses. As long as Pudge isn't viscious I wouldn't worry about it -
they'll work it out. You may find that in a year's time that they've become
the best of friends.

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 14th 07, 12:24 PM
Response from Sherry >:

>> In general he would be bothered by children? Or just problematic
>> children?
>
> Bosley is bothered by people of any size who move suddenly, or are
> loud,
> or who touch him uninvited. He weighs over 20 pounds and usually
> goes for the face. He just gets overstimulated easily. Even when
> I'm petting him, he sends "signals" (ears back, or tail
> thumping)...that he's had enough. If I don't stop, he attacks me.
> He's just a weird cat.

Ah, OK. And I knew the general tail THUMPING part, but I wonder, is
tail wagging in cats always indicative of poor mood or becoming
upset?

Mike Rowe on Dirty Jobs (on Discovery Channel) asked a groomer what
it meant that the cat was wagging his tail. The groomer said he was
angry. Is it that simple or is it a particular type of wagging?
Like thumping...

> If I know we are having company, I lock him in the bedroom. He
> would *never* be suitable in a home with children. Remember
> though, that your
> cat sounds like he's just very hyper and playful, not so much
> aggressive
> like Bosley is.

Oh yeah, Gabby is only playing as far as I can tell. She DOES get
worked up easily though. For example she DOES NOT fall for that just
ignore it routine. If you pull your hand or arm away, she pounces on
you. If you ignore her she just gets rougher and rougher until you
have to scream out in pain or yank your hand away or toss her away.

> I like your resolve, though. I hope things work out.

Thanks.

> As a farm kid with dozens of pets of all species, I was scratched,
> bitten,
> kicked, thrown to the ground, and flogged lots of times. I still
> remember
> what my mother *invariably* said when I went bawling and tattling
> to her:
> "Well, what did *you* do to him/her/it?"

I was a "farm kid" too and had to go through the same things. I
think I have been bitten by horses more times than anything to be
honest. But I can honestly say at about age six and beyond I stopped
being mean to animals. I only think I was before then because I
didn't know better.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
October 14th 07, 12:35 PM
Response from "CatNipped" >:

> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gabby is STILL pushing the limits. Today during their normal
>> play I could hear Pudge start to whimper as Gabby bit and clawed
>> harder and harder, nearer and nearer to Pudge's genitalia.
>>
>> Almost at the exact moment I reached down to grab Gabby away,
>> Pudge bit her on the face.
>>
>> 3 things...
>>
>> 1. Pudge is the KINDEST, SWEETEST dog I have ever met or had the
>> joy to call my doggy daughter. She has NEVER done ANYTHING like
>> that OR even growled at ANYONE, including my youngest child who
>> used to tug on her quite forcefully. So I believe Pudge did what
>> she did only because it hurt too much.
>>
>> 2. Gabby is fine. It was not a vicious mauling or even a
>> critical snapping of the jaws. For "us" it would have been a nip
>> to say back off. For Gabby, whose head can fit inside Pudge's
>> mouth it was, "Oh ****e, the mouth of Satan himself came gnashing
>> at my soul!" Haha!
>>
>> 3. Pudge, I think having realized Gabby is just a baby made it a
>> point to walk over to her and give her the once over -- licking
>> her from head to toe.
>>
>> How does Gabby repay Pudge for this kindness even after Gabby
>> went too far?
>>
>> Back leg...
>> http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudgelm8.jpg
>>
>> Front leg...
>> http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge2ak1.jpg
>>
>> Poor Pudge's Privates...
>> http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge3lp2.jpg
>>
>> I swear this cat is going to give someone a stroke.
>
> LOL! Sorry, I know this is hard for you, but a picture of a tiny
> kitten taking on a large dog - and *winning* is just too funny.

Naaah, it cracks me up too. : )

<snip>

> Your pictures just reminded me of this. If you ever watch Animal
> Planet you'll see kittens attacking their dog friends all the
> time. Did Pudge have any actual scratches or bite marks on her?

Actually, after the first genitalia bite I scoured Pudge's
underbelly and sure enough there were two TINY pinpricks so to
speak. Two itty-bitty drops of blood RIGHT BESIDE her genitalia.
My poor puppy. : |

> It would be very odd for a kitten that small to do any real damage
> to a much larger dog. Some dogs whine when they are in an
> unfamiliar situation and don't know what to do. If Pudge has never
> been around kittens before she may not know how to play with
> Gabby, and may feel uncomfortable at first.

I thought so at first, but Pudge is actually the one who initiated
play with Gabby time and time again.

Demon on the other hand has NEVER wanted anything to do with her
really. Although they did have a bit of fun before Gabby started
biting too hard.

> I think once they get to know each other better they'll have a
> lot more fun (unless Pudge is a very old dog) - puppies play even
> rougher than kittens, so I'm sure it's not a case of Pudge being
> hurt.

Nope, Pudge and Demon both are barely 3 years old.

And beside what I told you about those couple drops of blood (I
couldn't even tell if they were bite or claw marks they were so small
and seriously DOTS), Pudge is just fine. I have roughhoused with her
10x worse than what Gabby did to her.

I think the worst part of it is being new to Gabby, liking her, and
then getting hurt (regardless of how severe) by her. She immediately
went and tended to Gabby afterward so there was no hard feelings.

> And as you stated, she does have her own defenses. As
> long as Pudge isn't viscious I wouldn't worry about it - they'll
> work it out. You may find that in a year's time that they've
> become the best of
> friends.

Yeah, Pudge is the polar opposite of vicious. I used to call her
"pudding pup" is how laid back she is.

And now, as of about 10 minutes I made a startling revelation. And
it just goes to show me that when someone tells you something,
sometimes it helps to see for yourself.

See my new thread entitled "Gabby is a funny name for a boy." I am
sure you and everyone else will get a superb kick out of this one. :
)

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
October 14th 07, 02:35 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response from "CatNipped" >:
>
>> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Gabby is STILL pushing the limits. Today during their normal
>>> play I could hear Pudge start to whimper as Gabby bit and clawed
>>> harder and harder, nearer and nearer to Pudge's genitalia.
>>>
>>> Almost at the exact moment I reached down to grab Gabby away,
>>> Pudge bit her on the face.
>>>
>>> 3 things...
>>>
>>> 1. Pudge is the KINDEST, SWEETEST dog I have ever met or had the
>>> joy to call my doggy daughter. She has NEVER done ANYTHING like
>>> that OR even growled at ANYONE, including my youngest child who
>>> used to tug on her quite forcefully. So I believe Pudge did what
>>> she did only because it hurt too much.
>>>
>>> 2. Gabby is fine. It was not a vicious mauling or even a
>>> critical snapping of the jaws. For "us" it would have been a nip
>>> to say back off. For Gabby, whose head can fit inside Pudge's
>>> mouth it was, "Oh ****e, the mouth of Satan himself came gnashing
>>> at my soul!" Haha!
>>>
>>> 3. Pudge, I think having realized Gabby is just a baby made it a
>>> point to walk over to her and give her the once over -- licking
>>> her from head to toe.
>>>
>>> How does Gabby repay Pudge for this kindness even after Gabby
>>> went too far?
>>>
>>> Back leg...
>>> http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudgelm8.jpg
>>>
>>> Front leg...
>>> http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge2ak1.jpg
>>>
>>> Poor Pudge's Privates...
>>> http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patientpudge3lp2.jpg
>>>
>>> I swear this cat is going to give someone a stroke.
>>
>> LOL! Sorry, I know this is hard for you, but a picture of a tiny
>> kitten taking on a large dog - and *winning* is just too funny.
>
> Naaah, it cracks me up too. : )
>
> <snip>
>
>> Your pictures just reminded me of this. If you ever watch Animal
>> Planet you'll see kittens attacking their dog friends all the
>> time. Did Pudge have any actual scratches or bite marks on her?
>
> Actually, after the first genitalia bite I scoured Pudge's
> underbelly and sure enough there were two TINY pinpricks so to
> speak. Two itty-bitty drops of blood RIGHT BESIDE her genitalia.
> My poor puppy. : |
>
>> It would be very odd for a kitten that small to do any real damage
>> to a much larger dog. Some dogs whine when they are in an
>> unfamiliar situation and don't know what to do. If Pudge has never
>> been around kittens before she may not know how to play with
>> Gabby, and may feel uncomfortable at first.
>
> I thought so at first, but Pudge is actually the one who initiated
> play with Gabby time and time again.
>
> Demon on the other hand has NEVER wanted anything to do with her
> really. Although they did have a bit of fun before Gabby started
> biting too hard.
>
>> I think once they get to know each other better they'll have a
>> lot more fun (unless Pudge is a very old dog) - puppies play even
>> rougher than kittens, so I'm sure it's not a case of Pudge being
>> hurt.
>
> Nope, Pudge and Demon both are barely 3 years old.
>
> And beside what I told you about those couple drops of blood (I
> couldn't even tell if they were bite or claw marks they were so small
> and seriously DOTS), Pudge is just fine. I have roughhoused with her
> 10x worse than what Gabby did to her.
>
> I think the worst part of it is being new to Gabby, liking her, and
> then getting hurt (regardless of how severe) by her. She immediately
> went and tended to Gabby afterward so there was no hard feelings.
>
>> And as you stated, she does have her own defenses. As
>> long as Pudge isn't viscious I wouldn't worry about it - they'll
>> work it out. You may find that in a year's time that they've
>> become the best of
>> friends.
>
> Yeah, Pudge is the polar opposite of vicious. I used to call her
> "pudding pup" is how laid back she is.

I really think they'll be fine. Pudge will deal with her, um I mean him in
her own way. As long as there is not injuries invovled I'd let them work it
out themselves. Gabby has to learn that she can only go so far with being
chastised for it.

>
> And now, as of about 10 minutes I made a startling revelation. And
> it just goes to show me that when someone tells you something,
> sometimes it helps to see for yourself.
>
> See my new thread entitled "Gabby is a funny name for a boy." I am
> sure you and everyone else will get a superb kick out of this one. :
> )

LOL! Nope, happens all the time - we had a poster here not too long ago
with a female cat called Oscar! ;> You can always change his name to
Gabriel and call him Gabe for short!

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

Sherry
October 14th 07, 03:02 PM
On Oct 14, 6:24 am, "-Lost" > wrote:
snipped
>
> > Bosley is bothered by people of any size who move suddenly, or are
> > loud,
> > or who touch him uninvited. He weighs over 20 pounds and usually
> > goes for the face. He just gets overstimulated easily. Even when
> > I'm petting him, he sends "signals" (ears back, or tail
> > thumping)...that he's had enough. If I don't stop, he attacks me.
> > He's just a weird cat.
>
> Ah, OK. And I knew the general tail THUMPING part, but I wonder, is
> tail wagging in cats always indicative of poor mood or becoming
> upset?

Oh, yeah. Or at least from my experience. The *only* time I ever see
any
tail-wagging of any kind is when they're angry, or threatened. You see
tail-
wagging a lot when two cats are in a stand-off about to scrap with
each other. A "happy tail" might curl up and down at the very tip, but
never wags. A *really* happy tail is held straight up, or curled at
the edge
like a question mark!
>
> > As a farm kid with dozens of pets of all species, I was scratched,
> > bitten,
> > kicked, thrown to the ground, and flogged lots of times. I still
> > remember
> > what my mother *invariably* said when I went bawling and tattling
> > to her:
> > "Well, what did *you* do to him/her/it?"
>
> I was a "farm kid" too and had to go through the same things. I
> think I have been bitten by horses more times than anything to be
> honest. But I can honestly say at about age six and beyond I stopped
> being mean to animals. I only think I was before then because I
> didn't know better.

Ha! Horse bites are the worst, and you don't have to "be mean" to get
one.
Just turn your back! Same with geese. I don't think I ever was
deliberately
mean to an animal, but I did have a tendency to dress them up, and
was constantly "fixing" the horses' manes and tails into braids and
ribbons.
I suppose that's a form of abuse in its own right . :-)
The thing about Gabby is, you just have to learn what her stressors
are. What
agitates her, and what works to calm her. Every cat is different. When
Bosley
would wack out, I'd put him in a quiet bedroom for a while, like "time
out". *IF*
I could handle him without being hurt.
Really, if you can manage to find what works in the meantime, aging is
going
to make a tremendous difference. Even the most fractious teenaged cats
usually
mellow with age.


Sherry

Lesley
October 14th 07, 05:07 PM
On 14 Oct, 04:24, "-Lost" > wrote:
>
> Oh yeah, Gabby is only playing as far as I can tell. She DOES get
> worked up easily though. For example she DOES NOT fall for that just
> ignore it routine. If you pull your hand or arm away, she pounces on
> you. If you ignore her she just gets rougher and rougher until you
> have to scream out in pain or yank your hand away or toss her away.
>

Sarrasine (my evil feline criminal genius) used to get very
overexcited as a kitten and do something similar.

Here's what worked for us

1. When she first bit or seriously claed at one of us, we'd withdraw
from playing. Just stop and ignore her. Sometimes this worked if it
didn't...

2. We'd pick her up at a safe distance- hand under the backside so she
would feel secure , hand under her chest but we would hold her away
from us

3. No cuddles, no stroking so she didn't get a reward for her
behaviour

4. We'd put her in the bathroom and shut the door and leave her there
for 10-15 minutes

5 If she started again when she was let out- she'd go back to the
bathroom (there were times when I spent forever walking to and from
the bathroom) If however she played nice, she would get stroked and
fussed over

She soon learnt (Soon? It took a few weeks) that if she bit or clawed
and we withdrew that she couldn't press it further or she would be
taken away from playing and left in the bathroom for a "time out" Okay
some of it is not being a kitten anymore, through she still plays like
one, she's 4 now, once every few months she might go a bit crazy but
if she does she still gets picked up and put in the bathroom

These days the worse she is guility of is patting your face when
you're trying to sleep and she wants to be petted and even then she
keeps her claws in

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Sherry
October 14th 07, 06:45 PM
On Oct 14, 11:07 am, Lesley > wrote:
> On 14 Oct, 04:24, "-Lost" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Oh yeah, Gabby is only playing as far as I can tell. She DOES get
> > worked up easily though. For example she DOES NOT fall for that just
> > ignore it routine. If you pull your hand or arm away, she pounces on
> > you. If you ignore her she just gets rougher and rougher until you
> > have to scream out in pain or yank your hand away or toss her away.
>
> Sarrasine (my evil feline criminal genius) used to get very
> overexcited as a kitten and do something similar.
>
> Here's what worked for us
>
> 1. When she first bit or seriously claed at one of us, we'd withdraw
> from playing. Just stop and ignore her. Sometimes this worked if it
> didn't...
>
> 2. We'd pick her up at a safe distance- hand under the backside so she
> would feel secure , hand under her chest but we would hold her away
> from us
>
> 3. No cuddles, no stroking so she didn't get a reward for her
> behaviour
>
> 4. We'd put her in the bathroom and shut the door and leave her there
> for 10-15 minutes
>
> 5 If she started again when she was let out- she'd go back to the
> bathroom (there were times when I spent forever walking to and from
> the bathroom) If however she played nice, she would get stroked and
> fussed over
>
> She soon learnt (Soon? It took a few weeks) that if she bit or clawed
> and we withdrew that she couldn't press it further or she would be
> taken away from playing and left in the bathroom for a "time out" Okay
> some of it is not being a kitten anymore, through she still plays like
> one, she's 4 now, once every few months she might go a bit crazy but
> if she does she still gets picked up and put in the bathroom
>
> These days the worse she is guility of is patting your face when
> you're trying to sleep and she wants to be petted and even then she
> keeps her claws in
>
> Lesley
>
> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Leslie, that is *excellent* advice. It will work. It worked with Bubby
and Sissy,
the orphan kittens I had. It didn't take them long to learn that when
they
started biting & clawing, they stopped getting attention.

Sherry