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-Lost
November 16th 07, 09:10 AM
Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?

I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
neuter your cat.

The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
marking their territory.

Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
neutering?

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Meghan Noecker
November 16th 07, 09:22 AM
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:10:24 -0600, "-Lost"
> wrote:

>Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
>I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
>information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
>not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
>neuter your cat.
>
>The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
>testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
>marking their territory.
>
>Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
>neutering?


Intact males tend to be more agressive and get into fights if not
neutered. They will try to escape. If you let them outside, they will
end up n more fights, so you can expect more vet expenses associated
with those injuries.

Intact males are also harder to keep at a good weight and good coat.
They tend to be skinnier, and they can get a condition called stud
tail which means that they release a lot of a hormone just above the
tail, making it really greasy.

They definitely require more work, and they can be a real pain in
terms of behavior and mess.

We had an intact male for about 2 years before we neutered him. He was
horrible. He attacked the other cats and dogs anytime they tried to
get on his person's lap. He sprayed all over the place. We didn't have
outdoor cats before him, but with all the damage, we let him go out
during the day to spray outside instead. Our neighbor stole him and
gave him back. He also attacked raccoons (they backed down from him).
I think he must have gone into their territory, because he disappeared
when he was about 4 years old. We never found him. I think his life
would have been a lot different if we had just neutered him.
Unfortunately, at that time, my mom was a backyard breeder and wanted
to keep him intact. (She did quit after his first litter.)


Intact females will eventually go in heat all the time, which can
drive a person insane. They are also more likely to get cancer. And
they will also try to escape more, especially if there are males
hanging around outside, trying to get at her.


If you are planning to breed him please have him tested for diseases
that can be present even if they don't show. Which tests will depend
on the breed. Just about any cat should have thir heart checked. Many
breeds have genetic testing that can show the likliehood of heart and
kidney problems.

November 16th 07, 12:12 PM
There are real risks of reproductive cancers if a cat is not neutered
or spayed.

This is in addition to the risks of the cat losing their home because
of the uncontrollable yowling and spraying and fighting. These
behaviors work in the wild; when we ask the cat to stay with us and be
our pet, it's a favor to the cat to keep them from expressing their
wishes in this way.

If we wonder what the cat thinks, it should be clear; a life in an
environment they are not made for (our modern civilization) that is
nasty, mean, brutish, and short, or a pampered life as a beloved pet.

They don't miss it. As human as they act, there are no cat porn
magazines and they lose all interest in unhomely behaviors.

jmc
November 16th 07, 12:47 PM
Suddenly, without warning, -Lost exclaimed (11/16/2007 6:40 PM):
> Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
> information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> neuter your cat.
>
> The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> marking their territory.
>
> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> neutering?
>

Ah, NOW you've done it. Long thread, coming up!

I think you're looking at it backwards though. What risk is there in
getting them neutered, aside from the slight danger inherent in any
operation?

Not much, I think, though I've never had a male. But it sounds like an
intact male makes a very poor housecat!

The danger for males seems to be more in how testosterone changes their
behavior, than in the health risks (like higher risk of certain cancers,
I think). I bet if a survey was done, intact males don't live nearly as
long as neutered ones.

It's the same with horses. If he's not breeding material, neuter him.
If you don't plan on breeding, neuter. Your neighbors will thank you as
well!

jmc

dgk
November 16th 07, 01:05 PM
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:10:24 -0600, "-Lost"
> wrote:

>Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
>I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
>information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
>not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
>neuter your cat.
>
>The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
>testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
>marking their territory.
>
>Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
>neutering?


There is a real risk of more kittens. There are already plenty of cats
around that have to be killed, so why increase the numbers? If we ever
have a cat shortage, feel free to let some breed.

Phil P.
November 16th 07, 01:50 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
> information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> neuter your cat.
>
> The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> marking their territory.
>
> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> neutering?

cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering

Female

OVARIAN CYSTADENOMA cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a moderate
size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Preventable by spaying.


EPITHELIAL (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa cell
tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors.
Preventable by spaying


OVARIAN ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented by
spaying female cats.


GERM CELL TUMOR: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from
embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Malignant. Ovariohysterectomy,
chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by
spaying.


UTERINE LEIOMYOMA: the most common uterine tumor found in female cats. This
tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually
benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visible. Ovariohysterectomy usually
produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
circumstances.


UTERINE LEIOMYOSARCOMA: malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and
spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable
abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and
chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very rare
circumstances.


UTERINE FIBROSARCOMA: very invasive malignant cancer, more common in other
areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it will
have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis.
Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective if
metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
circumstances.


UTERINE ENDOMETRIAL ADENOCARCINOMA: A very common uterine tumor, usually
occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside of
the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This
tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain.
Preventable by spaying.


MAMMARY GLAND NEOPLASIA: the third most common type of tumor in female cats
comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be almost
completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors are
highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk or
incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle. Most
tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the
breasts closer to the tail.


Male

SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very large as part
of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which is the most severe
effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone marrow damage. Often curable if
caught early or chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen
levels surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative.



PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that
have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate gland;
prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this tumor
can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis,
and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other
organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may
slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
neutering considered preventative.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 16th 07, 08:55 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
> information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> neuter your cat.
>
> The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> marking their territory.
>
> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> neutering?

The real danger is that he *will* get out. A queen in heat is detectable a
*long* way off and as soon as those hormones start surging he'll be out the
door like a shot before you even see him coming. Not being used to outdoors
any more, and in his headlong rush to a rendevous, he'll be in danger of
traffic, dogs, and all the other assorted dangers of the outdoors that
people here will list over and over given half the change (the only reason
I'm not is the arthritis in my hands). Even if he isn't killed by his
adventure, he'll be adding to the overpopulation of cats the results in
thousands of them being euthanized (or dying more horrible deaths outside)
daily.

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 16th 07, 10:15 PM
Response to Meghan Noecker >:

>>Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
>>neutering?
>
> Intact males tend to be more agressive and get into fights if not
> neutered. They will try to escape. If you let them outside, they
> will end up n more fights, so you can expect more vet expenses
> associated with those injuries.

Makes sense.

<snip>

> We had an intact male for about 2 years before we neutered him.

(1)

> He was horrible. He attacked the other cats and dogs anytime they
> tried to get on his person's lap. He sprayed all over the place.

Ugh... so it is highly likely that his constant attacks are due to
him having his doo-dads. *sigh*

<snip>

> I think he must have gone into their territory, because he
> disappeared when he was about 4 years old. We never found him.

(1) I think I'm confused. He backed down raccoons WITHOUT his doo-
dads? Or this was before he lost 'em, or... ?


> I think his life would have been a lot different if we had just
> neutered him. Unfortunately, at that time, my mom was a backyard
> breeder and wanted to keep him intact. (She did quit after his
> first litter.)

What is a backyard breeder? I'm guessing someone who is not an
official breeder? Or something like that?

<snip>

> If you are planning to breed him <snip>

Ooooh, HECK no! I can hardly stand one -- especially THIS one.

Thanks for all the great tips though. That's definitely got me one
step closer to the ultimate decision.

I want him to be so much better than what he is but I hate that I
have to mutilate him to do it.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 16th 07, 10:16 PM
Response to :

> There are real risks of reproductive cancers if a cat is not
> neutered or spayed.
>
> This is in addition to the risks of the cat losing their home
> because of the uncontrollable yowling and spraying and fighting.
> These behaviors work in the wild; when we ask the cat to stay with
> us and be our pet, it's a favor to the cat to keep them from
> expressing their wishes in this way.
>
> If we wonder what the cat thinks, it should be clear; a life in an
> environment they are not made for (our modern civilization) that
> is nasty, mean, brutish, and short, or a pampered life as a
> beloved pet.
>
> They don't miss it. As human as they act, there are no cat porn
> magazines and they lose all interest in unhomely behaviors.

HAHAHA! Thanks. That was um... informative to say the least.
Definitely makes sense too.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 16th 07, 10:23 PM
Response to jmc >:

>> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in
>> not neutering?
>
> Ah, NOW you've done it. Long thread, coming up!

Hehehe. Well, I DO try and think of good ones. Sometimes I forget
to do my homework and sometimes I just don't understand -- so I
definitely build up the good ones for you lads/lasses.

> I think you're looking at it backwards though. What risk is there
> in getting them neutered, aside from the slight danger inherent in
> any operation?

More than fair point. My only reasoning behind not doing it is I
hate to cut things off of animals. I just don't believe anything
that cannot communicate their desires should have their freedom
manhandled in such a fashion as to lead to their ultimate appendage
removal.

That is why even after HORRIBLE attacks that Gabby still has his
claws. The group let me in on what really happens in a declaw and
when I was done crying I explained to the family it simply wasn't an
option.

> Not much, I think, though I've never had a male. But it sounds
> like an intact male makes a very poor housecat!

Right. But it does look like I am going to have to make a choice in
this direction. I figured I could handle the spraying and was
basically using no health risks as a crutch to not do it.

> The danger for males seems to be more in how testosterone changes
> their behavior, than in the health risks (like higher risk of
> certain cancers, I think). I bet if a survey was done, intact
> males don't live nearly as long as neutered ones.

It seems though that aggression really is a number one reason to
neuter... so I don't know...

Thanks for the tips, jmc.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 16th 07, 10:24 PM
Response to dgk >:

>>Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
>>neutering?
>
> There is a real risk of more kittens. There are already plenty of
> cats around that have to be killed, so why increase the numbers?
> If we ever have a cat shortage, feel free to let some breed.

I was referring to health risks and made not one mention of letting
Gabby breed.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 16th 07, 10:33 PM
Response to "Phil P." >:

>> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in
>> not neutering?
>
> cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering

<snip information on spaying>

> Male
>
> SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very
> large as part of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which
> is the most severe effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone
> marrow damage. Often curable if caught early or chemotherapy may
> be needed. In cats with high estrogen levels surgery can be
> risky. Neutering is preventative.
>
> PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in
> cats that have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of
> the prostate gland; prostate gland enlargement will often be quite
> irregular. Also, this tumor can cause urinary tract blockage,
> weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis, and weight loss. Spreads
> to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other organs. There is no
> treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may slow growth
> of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
> neutering considered preventative.

Hi, Phil! I was hoping that you might drop by for this one. Are
either of these 2 male afflictions a common occurrence?

And I'll take it by your expertise and the information you just
provided that you do suggest neutering? Even if the kitty is in a
controlled environment with no possible chance of breeding?

And is it at all possible for his mood to ever mellow out to the
point that neutering may not be necessary?

Thanks for all that great information, Phil. You and your site are a
godsend.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 16th 07, 10:45 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

>> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in
>> not neutering?
>
> The real danger is that he *will* get out. A queen in heat is
> detectable a *long* way off and as soon as those hormones start
> surging he'll be out the door like a shot before you even see him
> coming. Not being used to outdoors any more, and in his headlong
> rush to a rendevous, he'll be in danger of traffic, dogs, and all
> the other assorted dangers of the outdoors that people here will
> list over and over given half the change (the only reason I'm not
> is the arthritis in my hands). Even if he isn't killed by his
> adventure, he'll be adding to the overpopulation of cats the
> results in thousands of them being euthanized (or dying more
> horrible deaths outside) daily.

First, thank you for putting your always polite and nice spin on
this. It sounded so much better coming from you.

We really have gone to great lengths to insure he will not be able to
breed. As an example, he has to be kenneled before anyone leaves or
enters or when animals are let out or in.

There isn't actually too much in and out, the door opens maybe 2
times a day. I know it sounds strange...

I'm going to think on this a bit more and perhaps Phil will give me
another shot of his medicinal information, but it seems that it will
be the right choice if I hope to keep Gabby.

....and yes, you guessed it. He's up to mischief again. Remember
that biting conversation we had?

He was behind the small Betta aquariums and when I reached for him he
bolted along the counter behind a larger aquarium housing one of our
big scaly monsters so I had to reach behind it (since he was wedged
as well). Although it looked like he would have had to break his
neck to reach me, he turned his head almost 180 degrees and sunk his
left top canine into the soft flesh between my index and thumb. It
didn't go into the meat or fat, but it slid his ENTIRE tooth
underneath my skin and then ripped away so I have a 3/4 inch
<whatever you call it sliding under the skin and being pulled away so
it slices it open>. And boy did it hurt.

I yelled and said, "I didn't put you behind that aquarium you arse!"
Because it really seemed like he did it like, "Ack! I'm stuck!
*bite bite munch munch*"

As I washed my hand at the kitchen sink the bum rubbed all over my
legs as if he was getting something. I found it *slightly* funny,
although painful -- but he's biting too freely now.

I guess when it comes down to it I have my answer, huh?

*sigh*

Thanks, CatNipped.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sheelagh>\o\
November 17th 07, 12:06 AM
On 16 Nov, 13:50, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> > I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
> > information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> > not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> > neuter your cat.
>
> > The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> > testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> > marking their territory.
>
> > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> > neutering?
>
> cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering
>
> Female
>
> OVARIAN CYSTADENOMA cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a moderate
> size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Preventable by spaying.
>
> EPITHELIAL (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa cell
> tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors.
> Preventable by spaying
>
> OVARIAN ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented by
> spaying female cats.
>
> GERM CELL TUMOR: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from
> embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Malignant. Ovariohysterectomy,
> chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by
> spaying.
>
> UTERINE LEIOMYOMA: the most common uterine tumor found in female cats. This
> tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually
> benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visible. Ovariohysterectomy usually
> produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> circumstances.
>
> UTERINE LEIOMYOSARCOMA: malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and
> spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable
> abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and
> chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> circumstances.
>
> UTERINE FIBROSARCOMA: very invasive malignant cancer, more common in other
> areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it will
> have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis.
> Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective if
> metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> circumstances.
>
> UTERINE ENDOMETRIAL ADENOCARCINOMA: A very common uterine tumor, usually
> occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside of
> the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This
> tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain.
> Preventable by spaying.
>
> MAMMARY GLAND NEOPLASIA: the third most common type of tumor in female cats
> comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be almost
> completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors are
> highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk or
> incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle. Most
> tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the
> breasts closer to the tail.
>
> Male
>
> SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very large as part
> of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which is the most severe
> effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone marrow damage. Often curable if
> caught early or chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen
> levels surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative.
>
> PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that
> have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate gland;
> prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this tumor
> can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis,
> and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other
> organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may
> slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
> neutering considered preventative.

PYOMETRA!
lilly had it.
Sheelagh >"o"<

November 17th 07, 12:24 AM
> left top canine into the soft flesh between my index and thumb. It
> didn't go into the meat or fat, but it slid his ENTIRE tooth
> underneath my skin and then ripped away so I have a 3/4 inch
> <whatever you call it sliding under the skin and being pulled away so
> it slices it open>. And boy did it hurt.

He sounds like one mean cat but maybe he will get better if you neuter
him. I am afraid for your childnren.

You could wear gloves to handle him

Phil P.
November 17th 07, 12:25 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "Phil P." >:
>
> >> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in
> >> not neutering?
> >
> > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering
>
> <snip information on spaying>
>
> > Male
> >
> > SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very
> > large as part of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which
> > is the most severe effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone
> > marrow damage. Often curable if caught early or chemotherapy may
> > be needed. In cats with high estrogen levels surgery can be
> > risky. Neutering is preventative.
> >
> > PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in
> > cats that have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of
> > the prostate gland; prostate gland enlargement will often be quite
> > irregular. Also, this tumor can cause urinary tract blockage,
> > weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis, and weight loss. Spreads
> > to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other organs. There is no
> > treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may slow growth
> > of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
> > neutering considered preventative.
>
> Hi, Phil! I was hoping that you might drop by for this one. Are
> either of these 2 male afflictions a common occurrence?


Common enough if your cat devcelops either. It really doesn't matter because
they're both unnecessary risks- and any unnecessary risk is exesessive and
unaceptable.


>
> And I'll take it by your expertise and the information you just
> provided that you do suggest neutering?


Absolutely.


Even if the kitty is in a
> controlled environment with no possible chance of breeding?


Absolutely. Besides, you can't guarantee he'll never ever get out.


>
> And is it at all possible for his mood to ever mellow out to the
> point that neutering may not be necessary?

No. Neutered males are much calmer, more hygienic, much friendlier to other
cats, tolerate handling better, give more affection, are more playful and
like more attention than intact males. Neutering also significantly reduces
male dominant aggression and territorial aggression. They're also less
destructive. Not to mention they're happier.


>
> Thanks for all that great information, Phil. You and your site are a
> godsend.

Thanks

Phil P.
November 17th 07, 09:43 AM
"Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
...
> On 16 Nov, 13:50, "Phil P." > wrote:
> >
> > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering
> >
> > Female
> >
> > OVARIAN CYSTADENOMA cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a
moderate
> > size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Preventable by spaying.
> >
> > EPITHELIAL (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa
cell
> > tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors.
> > Preventable by spaying
> >
> > OVARIAN ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented
by
> > spaying female cats.
> >
> > GERM CELL TUMOR: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from
> > embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Malignant. Ovariohysterectomy,
> > chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by
> > spaying.
> >
> > UTERINE LEIOMYOMA: the most common uterine tumor found in female cats.
This
> > tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually
> > benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visible. Ovariohysterectomy
usually
> > produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> > circumstances.
> >
> > UTERINE LEIOMYOSARCOMA: malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and
> > spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable
> > abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and
> > chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very
rare
> > circumstances.
> >
> > UTERINE FIBROSARCOMA: very invasive malignant cancer, more common in
other
> > areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it
will
> > have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis.
> > Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective
if
> > metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> > circumstances.
> >
> > UTERINE ENDOMETRIAL ADENOCARCINOMA: A very common uterine tumor, usually
> > occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside
of
> > the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This
> > tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain.
> > Preventable by spaying.
> >
> > MAMMARY GLAND NEOPLASIA: the third most common type of tumor in female
cats
> > comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be
almost
> > completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors
are
> > highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk
or
> > incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle.
Most
> > tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the
> > breasts closer to the tail.
> >
> > Male
> >
> > SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very large as
part
> > of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which is the most severe
> > effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone marrow damage. Often curable
if
> > caught early or chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen
> > levels surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative.
> >
> > PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that
> > have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate
gland;
> > prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this
tumor
> > can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the
penis,
> > and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other
> > organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may
> > slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
> > neutering considered preventative.
>
> PYOMETRA!

Pyometra can become fatal very quickly if the uterus ruptures.


> lilly had it.
> Sheelagh >"o"<

Sheelagh>\o\
November 17th 07, 05:27 PM
On 17 Nov, 00:06, "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" > wrote:
> On 16 Nov, 13:50, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "-Lost" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> > > I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
> > > information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> > > not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> > > neuter your cat.
>
> > > The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> > > testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> > > marking their territory.
>
> > > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> > > neutering?
>
> > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering
>
> > Female
>
> > OVARIAN CYSTADENOMA cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a moderate
> > size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Preventable by spaying.
>
> > EPITHELIAL (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa cell
> > tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors.
> > Preventable by spaying
>
> > OVARIAN ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented by
> > spaying female cats.
>
> > GERM CELL TUMOR: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from
> > embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Malignant. Ovariohysterectomy,
> > chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by
> > spaying.
>
> > UTERINE LEIOMYOMA: the most common uterine tumor found in female cats. This
> > tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually
> > benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visible. Ovariohysterectomy usually
> > produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> > circumstances.
>
> > UTERINE LEIOMYOSARCOMA: malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and
> > spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable
> > abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and
> > chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> > circumstances.
>
> > UTERINE FIBROSARCOMA: very invasive malignant cancer, more common in other
> > areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it will
> > have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis.
> > Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective if
> > metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> > circumstances.
>
> > UTERINE ENDOMETRIAL ADENOCARCINOMA: A very common uterine tumor, usually
> > occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside of
> > the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This
> > tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain.
> > Preventable by spaying.
>
> > MAMMARY GLAND NEOPLASIA: the third most common type of tumor in female cats
> > comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be almost
> > completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors are
> > highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk or
> > incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle. Most
> > tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the
> > breasts closer to the tail.
>
> > Male
>
> > SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very large as part
> > of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which is the most severe
> > effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone marrow damage. Often curable if
> > caught early or chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen
> > levels surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative.
>
> > PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that
> > have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate gland;
> > prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this tumor
> > can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis,
> > and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other
> > organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may
> > slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
> > neutering considered preventative.
>
> PYOMETRA!
> lilly had it.
> Sheelagh >"o"<- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I know Phil :(
To cut a very long story short, I noticed that Lilly was looking off
colour, but nothing too specific. I took her straight down to the vet
surgery where I was told that her anal glands were secreting a
horrible ooze. I was asked to bring her back the following day, which
I did.

What happened between the Wednesday that I took her in for treatment,
& the Friday morning, only the vet will ever know- either way, Lilly
was not treated at all until the vet returned to work on the Friday
morning. I got a call to say that Lilly was seriously ill & that they
only had one hope of saving her, which was to remove her womb. I
agreed instantly & she went ahead with the operation. Instead of
costing me around $100 for a simple spay, which I has already asked
her to do on the Wednesday, it suddenly became $1400!!!, & at the time
I had no alternative other than to let her preform the operation,
because Lilly was too ill to be moved.

If this story helps stop one single person or cat going through what
we did, then it was worth telling! It was a while back now, but I have
never learned a harder lesson.

It turned out that the vet had problems of her own which she attended
to before her client's pet's. I was outraged at the time, but we
managed to come to a mutual agreement before I took her to court. It
was just enough to cover what it ended up costing us, with a bit for
another rainy day...

The moral of this story is, don't wait for the problem to come to you-
deal with it before it ever becomes a problem. You end up with a much
more loving, friendly clean cat, all for the sake of a few dollars
when they are around 4-6 months old.
It's so easy to get done, so if you can get it done- Do!
Take my word for it
..
Sheelagh >"o"<

CatNipped[_2_]
November 17th 07, 06:39 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>>> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in
>>> not neutering?
>>
>> The real danger is that he *will* get out. A queen in heat is
>> detectable a *long* way off and as soon as those hormones start
>> surging he'll be out the door like a shot before you even see him
>> coming. Not being used to outdoors any more, and in his headlong
>> rush to a rendevous, he'll be in danger of traffic, dogs, and all
>> the other assorted dangers of the outdoors that people here will
>> list over and over given half the change (the only reason I'm not
>> is the arthritis in my hands). Even if he isn't killed by his
>> adventure, he'll be adding to the overpopulation of cats the
>> results in thousands of them being euthanized (or dying more
>> horrible deaths outside) daily.
>
> First, thank you for putting your always polite and nice spin on
> this. It sounded so much better coming from you.
>
> We really have gone to great lengths to insure he will not be able to
> breed. As an example, he has to be kenneled before anyone leaves or
> enters or when animals are let out or in.
>
> There isn't actually too much in and out, the door opens maybe 2
> times a day. I know it sounds strange...
>
> I'm going to think on this a bit more and perhaps Phil will give me
> another shot of his medicinal information, but it seems that it will
> be the right choice if I hope to keep Gabby.
>
> ...and yes, you guessed it. He's up to mischief again. Remember
> that biting conversation we had?
>
> He was behind the small Betta aquariums and when I reached for him he
> bolted along the counter behind a larger aquarium housing one of our
> big scaly monsters so I had to reach behind it (since he was wedged
> as well). Although it looked like he would have had to break his
> neck to reach me, he turned his head almost 180 degrees and sunk his
> left top canine into the soft flesh between my index and thumb. It
> didn't go into the meat or fat, but it slid his ENTIRE tooth
> underneath my skin and then ripped away so I have a 3/4 inch
> <whatever you call it sliding under the skin and being pulled away so
> it slices it open>. And boy did it hurt.
>
> I yelled and said, "I didn't put you behind that aquarium you arse!"
> Because it really seemed like he did it like, "Ack! I'm stuck!
> *bite bite munch munch*"
>
> As I washed my hand at the kitchen sink the bum rubbed all over my
> legs as if he was getting something. I found it *slightly* funny,
> although painful -- but he's biting too freely now.
>
> I guess when it comes down to it I have my answer, huh?

Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Neutering *might* help, but I wouldn't count
on it. If you had not tried everything suggested (and then some) I'd
probably advise you to just keep trying and wait till he grows up some. I
might even suggest that if you didn't have children who are in danger. But
you *have* tried your hardest, and your children *are* in danger, and he
*does* sounds like he's a serious biter, not just a kitten getting carried
away in play. I'll probably be flamed to hell and gone for writing this,
but it might be time for you to find a new home for Gabby, if at all
possible. Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues where you live?
Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one.

Also, if there is someone in the group who is willing to take him on, I'll
pitch in for transport (this group has found ways to help cats long distance
in the past). If you do find someone who'll take him, please be sure to let
them know he has a biting problem - it wouldn't be fair to the new owner if
you didn't.

My RB Bandit was a serious biter (which is how I know so much about treating
cat bites). As much as I loved her, I don't know if I'd have kept her if
I'd had children still at home. I adore all cats, and I put up with being
savagely bitten for over 17 years because of it, but what I can accept for
myself I would *NOT* accept for children.

Good luck, and please let me know what you decide.

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> *sigh*
>
> Thanks, CatNipped.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

November 18th 07, 02:03 AM
On Nov 17, 10:39 am, "CatNipped" > wrote:


> you *have* tried your hardest, and your children *are* in danger, and he
> *does* sounds like he's a serious biter, not just a kitten getting carried
> away in play. I'll probably be flamed to hell and gone for writing this,
> but it might be time for you to find a new home for Gabby, if at all
> possible. Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues where you live?
> Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one.

I agree with you but I dont think there will be a good home for him at
Pet Smart. He is just one of the cats that cant live with people.
Maybe he could be a barn cat.

jmc
November 18th 07, 03:31 AM
Suddenly, without warning, -Lost exclaimed (11/17/2007 7:53 AM):
> Response to jmc >:
>
>>> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in
>>> not neutering?
>> Ah, NOW you've done it. Long thread, coming up!
>
> Hehehe. Well, I DO try and think of good ones. Sometimes I forget
> to do my homework and sometimes I just don't understand -- so I
> definitely build up the good ones for you lads/lasses.
>
>> I think you're looking at it backwards though. What risk is there
>> in getting them neutered, aside from the slight danger inherent in
>> any operation?
>
> More than fair point. My only reasoning behind not doing it is I
> hate to cut things off of animals. I just don't believe anything
> that cannot communicate their desires should have their freedom
> manhandled in such a fashion as to lead to their ultimate appendage
> removal.
>

Declawing is very different than neutering.

> That is why even after HORRIBLE attacks that Gabby still has his
> claws. The group let me in on what really happens in a declaw and
> when I was done crying I explained to the family it simply wasn't an
> option.
>
>> Not much, I think, though I've never had a male. But it sounds
>> like an intact male makes a very poor housecat!
>
> Right. But it does look like I am going to have to make a choice in
> this direction. I figured I could handle the spraying and was
> basically using no health risks as a crutch to not do it.
>
>> The danger for males seems to be more in how testosterone changes
>> their behavior, than in the health risks (like higher risk of
>> certain cancers, I think). I bet if a survey was done, intact
>> males don't live nearly as long as neutered ones.
>
> It seems though that aggression really is a number one reason to
> neuter... so I don't know...
>

Not really. Health, longevity, how your house smells... and I forgot to
mention, but another poster has, that your intact male WILL create more
kittens; more homeless cats; more pressure on shelters, and essentially
more cats euthanized only because there's too many to find homes for.

If you are not breeding him, there is absolutely NO reason for him to
keep his jewels. He won't miss 'em and you'll be glad you did!

> Thanks for the tips, jmc.
>

You are welcome.

jmc

-Lost
November 18th 07, 02:32 PM
Response to "Phil P." >:

> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Response to "Phil P." >:
>>
>> >> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in
>> >> not neutering?
>> >
>> > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering
>>
>> <snip information on spaying>
>>
>> > Male
>> >
>> > SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very
>> > large as part of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen,
>> > which is the most severe effect of the tumor, causing liver and
>> > bone marrow damage. Often curable if caught early or
>> > chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen levels
>> > surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative.
>> >
>> > PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in
>> > cats that have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement
>> > of the prostate gland; prostate gland enlargement will often be
>> > quite irregular. Also, this tumor can cause urinary tract
>> > blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis, and weight
>> > loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other
>> > organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but
>> > neutering may slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely
>> > seen in castrated males, neutering considered preventative.
>>
>> Hi, Phil! I was hoping that you might drop by for this one. Are
>> either of these 2 male afflictions a common occurrence?
>
> Common enough if your cat devcelops either. It really doesn't
> matter because they're both unnecessary risks- and any unnecessary
> risk is exesessive and unaceptable.

<snip more good advice>

All right then that settles it. I'll schedule the appointment
Tuesday (when they're open next).

Thanks again, Phil. You've been most helpful (as usual).

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 18th 07, 02:33 PM
Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" >:

> If this story helps stop one single person or cat going through
> what we did, then it was worth telling! It was a while back now,
> but I have never learned a harder lesson.

I've definitely got the hint. Preventative is all that matters.

Thanks, Sheelagh. And sorry you had to go through that to understand
it yourself.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 18th 07, 02:34 PM
Response to :

>> left top canine into the soft flesh between my index and thumb.
>> It didn't go into the meat or fat, but it slid his ENTIRE tooth
>> underneath my skin and then ripped away so I have a 3/4 inch
>> <whatever you call it sliding under the skin and being pulled
>> away so it slices it open>. And boy did it hurt.
>
> He sounds like one mean cat but maybe he will get better if you
> neuter him. I am afraid for your childnren.

Here's hoping!

> You could wear gloves to handle him

I joked at one point that we would have to buy some armor. Gloves
were our second choice. The girls dug out their mittens and quickly
found out they wouldn't work. So gardeners gloves it was.

Thanks.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 18th 07, 05:16 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

>> I guess when it comes down to it I have my answer, huh?
>
> Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Neutering *might* help, but I
> wouldn't count on it. If you had not tried everything suggested
> (and then some) I'd probably advise you to just keep trying and
> wait till he grows up some. I might even suggest that if you
> didn't have children who are in danger. But you *have* tried your
> hardest, and your children *are* in danger, and he *does* sounds
> like he's a serious biter, not just a kitten getting carried away
> in play. I'll probably be flamed to hell and gone for writing
> this, but it might be time for you to find a new home for Gabby,
> if at all possible. Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues
> where you live? Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one.

Quick question... should I at least try first? That is, get him
neutered and give it a little more time?

I know it's hard to gauge but I really don't think he is a mean cat,
it's just when he gets all crazy he gets ALL CRAZY. I do agree
though that he is a serious biter.

> Also, if there is someone in the group who is willing to take him
> on, I'll pitch in for transport (this group has found ways to help
> cats long distance in the past). If you do find someone who'll
> take him, please be sure to let them know he has a biting problem
> - it wouldn't be fair to the new owner if you didn't.

I will too, depending on how much we're talking. (I have no clue
what it costs to transport an animal.)

But again, is it something that should wait until after a neuter to
see if it helps?

I can get it done in the next couple of weeks as there is never a
long wait at the local vet.

And if it is a major contributor to aggression I'd be really
interested in trying it first.

Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect?

<snip>

Thanks again, CatNipped.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 18th 07, 05:31 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

> Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues where you live?
> Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one.

Sorry I forgot to address this.

Yes, we have ONE no-kill shelter. It's an animal refuge they say --
problem is there is no room in it whatsoever. They even have it in
their answering machine message, "We have no more room and are not
accepting ANY animals."

Also, when I say I have checked all locations I mean not only have I
checked locally, but also up to 2 hours travel time away. (I think
round trip 4 hours is all I'd be willing to travel by myself.)

I've called PetSmarts, animal hospitals, clinics, vets, groomers, and
animal adoption agencies.

I have not asked PetSmart in particular if they had a no-kill shelter
but I did ask if they had any ideas of anything to assist me in not
having to put him in the pound or whatnot and most acted as if they
had no clue.

I did however through a PetSmart representative finally locate some
other organizations today in fact. (I made another long distance
call.) 9 Lives + 1, Caring Hearts, and Life For Pets.

So there are at least 3 possible choices for me if the situation
arises. I'm hopeful about the neuter idea though and eager to see
why you don't think it would help.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sheelagh>\o\
November 18th 07, 05:41 PM
On 18 Nov, 14:33, "-Lost" > wrote:
> Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" >:
>
> > If this story helps stop one single person or cat going through
> > what we did, then it was worth telling! It was a while back now,
> > but I have never learned a harder lesson.
>
> I've definitely got the hint. Preventative is all that matters.
>
> Thanks, Sheelagh. And sorry you had to go through that to understand
> it yourself.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

It was my fault really. Had I got her spayed when I was advised to, it
would never have come to that. It doesn't excuse the vet not treating
her for 2 whole days whilst she was in thier care, & I didn't mean to
frighten anyone- merely point out that it could have been avoided
altogether. It was a hard lesson- But mostly I felt guilty because I
know that what Lilly went through, was because of my failing, not
her's. Thankfully she is fine, but it could so easily have been a
different story.
No one likes admitting their failings, but in this case it was
avoidable. She was so ill!
I think it would be the best thing for Gabby. I certainly can't think
of any harm coming from neutering him.
Good Luck by the way,
Sheelagh >"o"<

CatNipped[_2_]
November 18th 07, 07:52 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>>> I guess when it comes down to it I have my answer, huh?
>>
>> Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Neutering *might* help, but I
>> wouldn't count on it. If you had not tried everything suggested
>> (and then some) I'd probably advise you to just keep trying and
>> wait till he grows up some. I might even suggest that if you
>> didn't have children who are in danger. But you *have* tried your
>> hardest, and your children *are* in danger, and he *does* sounds
>> like he's a serious biter, not just a kitten getting carried away
>> in play. I'll probably be flamed to hell and gone for writing
>> this, but it might be time for you to find a new home for Gabby,
>> if at all possible. Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues
>> where you live? Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one.
>
> Quick question... should I at least try first? That is, get him
> neutered and give it a little more time?
>
> I know it's hard to gauge but I really don't think he is a mean cat,
> it's just when he gets all crazy he gets ALL CRAZY. I do agree
> though that he is a serious biter.

Of course you should try. As I've said, none of us are there to truly gauge
the situation, you are. Have you talked to your vet about this problem?
There are some medical problems that can cause biting (one is a
hypersensitivity to being touched). If you feel he is a calm, loving cat
most of the time, then you would want to invest more time in changing this
behavior. But if he continues to attack with no warning, and with pretty
severe results then, as a mother, you need to take whatever means you need
to in order to protect your children from a dangerous situation.

If it is just over-aggressive play, the high-pitched "MEW" should have
stopped him. However, I didn't mention (and probably should have) that the
high-pitched "MEW" will not work if a cat is *deliberately* trying to harm
his victim. And the bite results you've described seem to be of a more
serious nature than would result from just over-aggressive play.

There are some cats (my RB Bandit was one of them), who are just a bit
psychotic - just like there are some humans who are. In that case, I really
haven't heard of any means of treatment (if I had, I wouldn't have put up
with 17+ years of biting injuries).

>
>> Also, if there is someone in the group who is willing to take him
>> on, I'll pitch in for transport (this group has found ways to help
>> cats long distance in the past). If you do find someone who'll
>> take him, please be sure to let them know he has a biting problem
>> - it wouldn't be fair to the new owner if you didn't.
>
> I will too, depending on how much we're talking. (I have no clue
> what it costs to transport an animal.)

In one case (in another, related, group) - people just volunteered to drive
the kitty in a sort of "relay" race across the country. In that instance
the only cost was gas. I wasn't involved in the instance here when people
pitched in to get a cat to a new slave - maybe someone else was, folks?

>
> But again, is it something that should wait until after a neuter to
> see if it helps?

That would be my recommendation if you've decided to have him neutered.

>
> I can get it done in the next couple of weeks as there is never a
> long wait at the local vet.
>
> And if it is a major contributor to aggression I'd be really
> interested in trying it first.
>
> Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect?

It will have some effect - the level of testosterone will decrease over the
weeks after the neuter and his behavior will turn gentler. The only reason
I don't think it will have a *major* effect is that an aggressive, intact
tom will usually only be aggressive to another cat. The aggression towards
humans is, I think, more a behavoral problem. But I'm not a vet, so I can't
give you a difinitive answer to this question. Again, talk to your vet
about this issue - it's one that they handle all the time.

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks again, CatNipped.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 18th 07, 07:56 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>> Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues where you live?
>> Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one.
>
> Sorry I forgot to address this.
>
> Yes, we have ONE no-kill shelter. It's an animal refuge they say --
> problem is there is no room in it whatsoever. They even have it in
> their answering machine message, "We have no more room and are not
> accepting ANY animals."
>
> Also, when I say I have checked all locations I mean not only have I
> checked locally, but also up to 2 hours travel time away. (I think
> round trip 4 hours is all I'd be willing to travel by myself.)
>
> I've called PetSmarts, animal hospitals, clinics, vets, groomers, and
> animal adoption agencies.
>
> I have not asked PetSmart in particular if they had a no-kill shelter
> but I did ask if they had any ideas of anything to assist me in not
> having to put him in the pound or whatnot and most acted as if they
> had no clue.
>
> I did however through a PetSmart representative finally locate some
> other organizations today in fact. (I made another long distance
> call.) 9 Lives + 1, Caring Hearts, and Life For Pets.
>
> So there are at least 3 possible choices for me if the situation
> arises. I'm hopeful about the neuter idea though and eager to see
> why you don't think it would help.

I'm hoping you won't have to use any of them. When you do talk to your vet,
ask him about medications that may help calm Gabby down. I think there's
one called Clomicalm that has been used in cats with litter-box issues due
to stress. Your vet will advise you is he thinks medication will help
remove the behavior.

Good luck, and please keep us posted.

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

cybercat
November 18th 07, 10:15 PM
"CatNipped" > wrote
>> Quick question... should I at least try first? That is, get him
>> neutered and give it a little more time?
>>
>> I know it's hard to gauge but I really don't think he is a mean cat,
>> it's just when he gets all crazy he gets ALL CRAZY. I do agree
>> though that he is a serious biter.
>
> Of course you should try. As I've said, none of us are there to truly
> gauge the situation, you are. Have you talked to your vet about this
> problem? There are some medical problems that can cause biting (one is a
> hypersensitivity to being touched). If you feel he is a calm, loving cat
> most of the time, then you would want to invest more time in changing this
> behavior. But if he continues to attack with no warning, and with pretty
> severe results then, as a mother, you need to take whatever means you need
> to in order to protect your children from a dangerous situation.
>

All very good advice, CN. You know how I feel about cats being given up, but
I know there are situations, like with aggressive cats and children, where
they
should be "rehomed." But my goodness he has to be neutered anyway, it's
win-win for everyone including him. So why not try it?

-Lost
November 18th 07, 10:47 PM
Response to "cybercat" >:

> "CatNipped" > wrote
>>> Quick question... should I at least try first? That is, get him
>>> neutered and give it a little more time?
>>>
>>> I know it's hard to gauge but I really don't think he is a mean
>>> cat, it's just when he gets all crazy he gets ALL CRAZY. I do
>>> agree though that he is a serious biter.
>>
>> Of course you should try. As I've said, none of us are there to
>> truly gauge the situation, you are. Have you talked to your vet
>> about this problem? There are some medical problems that can
>> cause biting (one is a hypersensitivity to being touched). If
>> you feel he is a calm, loving cat most of the time, then you
>> would want to invest more time in changing this behavior. But if
>> he continues to attack with no warning, and with pretty severe
>> results then, as a mother, you need to take whatever means you
>> need to in order to protect your children from a dangerous
>> situation.
>>
>
> All very good advice, CN. You know how I feel about cats being
> given up, but I know there are situations, like with aggressive
> cats and children, where they
> should be "rehomed." But my goodness he has to be neutered
> anyway, it's win-win for everyone including him. So why not try
> it?

It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is the
soonest I can get him snipped.

And thanks for ALL the information CatNipped. I am definitely going
to let the vet know that "he's just a kitten" has turned into "he
enjoys a hard bite." And I'll ask about the Clomicalm as well.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 18th 07, 10:50 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

>> Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect?
>
> It will have some effect - the level of testosterone will decrease
> over the weeks after the neuter and his behavior will turn
> gentler. The only reason I don't think it will have a *major*
> effect is that an aggressive, intact tom will usually only be
> aggressive to another cat. The aggression towards humans is, I
> think, more a behavoral problem. But I'm not a vet, so I can't
> give you a difinitive answer to this question. Again, talk to
> your vet about this issue - it's one that they handle all the
> time.

Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think
that he could be aggressive with us? I mean, that would still make it
a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn?

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

cybercat
November 19th 07, 12:03 AM
"-Lost" > wrote
> It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is the
> soonest I can get him snipped.
>

Super. I hope he calms down. He is lucky to have you to take such
good care of him and put so much thought into his care.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 19th 07, 01:22 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>>> Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect?
>>
>> It will have some effect - the level of testosterone will decrease
>> over the weeks after the neuter and his behavior will turn
>> gentler. The only reason I don't think it will have a *major*
>> effect is that an aggressive, intact tom will usually only be
>> aggressive to another cat. The aggression towards humans is, I
>> think, more a behavoral problem. But I'm not a vet, so I can't
>> give you a difinitive answer to this question. Again, talk to
>> your vet about this issue - it's one that they handle all the
>> time.
>
> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think
> that he could be aggressive with us? I mean, that would still make it
> a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn?

That's very possible, but you said you only rough-housed with him for a
couple of weeks? I am really not trying to be a pessimist here, I think you
still have *several* options to try. I just don't want to give you any
false hope that there is an easy fix - this may be something you need to
deal with for the rest of his life like I had to with Bandit. It's also
very possible that with either medication or behavior modification you can
stop it as Cheryl has experienced with her Shamrock. But your vet can help
much more than I, so talk to him about this - most vets have lots of
experience dealing with cases just like yours.

As far as my experience with my "biter"... The good news is that once they
are grown the attacks will decrease and may only happen if someone tries to
interact with him when he doesn't want to. The other good news is that he
has you for his slave. Not many people who weren't "cat people" from the
get go would go to as much trouble as you have with Gabby. The effort you
are willing to go to for him *will* pay off in the end, one way or another.
Bless you for your kind heart.

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

Phil P.
November 19th 07, 02:50 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...

> All right then that settles it. I'll schedule the appointment
> Tuesday (when they're open next).

Now you're on the right track! After he's neutered, it should be a lot
easier to modify his behavior. All it takes is time, patience, persistence,
and a whole 'lotta love and understanding.

>
> Thanks again, Phil. You've been most helpful (as usual).

You're welcome.

-Lost
November 19th 07, 04:32 AM
Response to Cheryl >:

>> It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is
>> the soonest I can get him snipped.
>>
> Good move. I've been reading this, and I just can't even imagine
> the smell from the litterbox, or the spraying!

OK, by spraying are we talking about the litter he sprays everywhere?
Because there is normally litter spread in a 15 foot radius of the
box. ; )

<snip>

> flavored, but none of the flavors appealled to Shamrock, so I buy
> it unflavored and give it to him in a gelcap. Hard to do, and my
> vet is tickled that it works, but its all in the timing.

Just for the record, where does one buy gel caps?

> It really has worked. I wouldn't normally advocate drugging a cat,
> but I think some really have issues that require it if they are
> going to live as a housecat.

I'm beginning to think this cat is going to make me violate every
ethic I have about animals. HAHAHA!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 19th 07, 04:33 AM
Response to "cybercat" >:

> "-Lost" > wrote
>> It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is the
>> soonest I can get him snipped.
>
> Super. I hope he calms down. He is lucky to have you to take such
> good care of him and put so much thought into his care.

Thanks, cybercat. I appreciate it.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 19th 07, 04:40 AM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

>>>> Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect?
>>>
>>> It will have some effect - the level of testosterone will
>>> decrease over the weeks after the neuter and his behavior will
>>> turn gentler. The only reason I don't think it will have a
>>> *major* effect is that an aggressive, intact tom will usually
>>> only be aggressive to another cat. The aggression towards
>>> humans is, I think, more a behavoral problem. But I'm not a
>>> vet, so I can't give you a difinitive answer to this question.
>>> Again, talk to your vet about this issue - it's one that they
>>> handle all the time.
>>
>> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to
>> think that he could be aggressive with us? I mean, that would
>> still make it a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn?
>
> That's very possible, but you said you only rough-housed with him
> for a couple of weeks? I am really not trying to be a pessimist
> here, I think you still have *several* options to try. I just
> don't want to give you any false hope that there is an easy fix -
> this may be something you need to deal with for the rest of his
> life like I had to with Bandit. It's also very possible that with
> either medication or behavior modification you can stop it as
> Cheryl has experienced with her Shamrock. But your vet can help
> much more than I, so talk to him about this - most vets have lots
> of experience dealing with cases just like yours.
>
> As far as my experience with my "biter"... The good news is that
> once they are grown the attacks will decrease and may only happen
> if someone tries to interact with him when he doesn't want to.
> The other good news is that he has you for his slave. Not many
> people who weren't "cat people" from the get go would go to as
> much trouble as you have with Gabby. The effort you are willing
> to go to for him *will* pay off in the end, one way or another.
> Bless you for your kind heart.

Awwwww, you're trying to make me cry! HAHA. I surely appreciate the
kind words but none of my efforts would have paid off as fruitfully
as they have so far without the help of you and this no-BS-straight-
to-the-point group.

Everyone here made the learning curve substantially straighter --
without which I am certain Gabby would not have lasted.

I'll post an update once we have a eunuch. And by the way... are we
weirdos for wanting before and after pictures? HAHA!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 19th 07, 02:31 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>>>>> Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect?
>>>>
>>>> It will have some effect - the level of testosterone will
>>>> decrease over the weeks after the neuter and his behavior will
>>>> turn gentler. The only reason I don't think it will have a
>>>> *major* effect is that an aggressive, intact tom will usually
>>>> only be aggressive to another cat. The aggression towards
>>>> humans is, I think, more a behavoral problem. But I'm not a
>>>> vet, so I can't give you a difinitive answer to this question.
>>>> Again, talk to your vet about this issue - it's one that they
>>>> handle all the time.
>>>
>>> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to
>>> think that he could be aggressive with us? I mean, that would
>>> still make it a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn?
>>
>> That's very possible, but you said you only rough-housed with him
>> for a couple of weeks? I am really not trying to be a pessimist
>> here, I think you still have *several* options to try. I just
>> don't want to give you any false hope that there is an easy fix -
>> this may be something you need to deal with for the rest of his
>> life like I had to with Bandit. It's also very possible that with
>> either medication or behavior modification you can stop it as
>> Cheryl has experienced with her Shamrock. But your vet can help
>> much more than I, so talk to him about this - most vets have lots
>> of experience dealing with cases just like yours.
>>
>> As far as my experience with my "biter"... The good news is that
>> once they are grown the attacks will decrease and may only happen
>> if someone tries to interact with him when he doesn't want to.
>> The other good news is that he has you for his slave. Not many
>> people who weren't "cat people" from the get go would go to as
>> much trouble as you have with Gabby. The effort you are willing
>> to go to for him *will* pay off in the end, one way or another.
>> Bless you for your kind heart.
>
> Awwwww, you're trying to make me cry! HAHA. I surely appreciate the
> kind words but none of my efforts would have paid off as fruitfully
> as they have so far without the help of you and this no-BS-straight-
> to-the-point group.
>
> Everyone here made the learning curve substantially straighter --
> without which I am certain Gabby would not have lasted.
>
> I'll post an update once we have a eunuch. And by the way... are we
> weirdos for wanting before and after pictures? HAHA!

Not as long as you don't show them to Gabby and say "neener, neener"! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

James
November 19th 07, 03:59 PM
On Nov 16, 8:50 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> > I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the
> > information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> > not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> > neuter your cat.
>
> > The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> > testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> > marking their territory.
>
> > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> > neutering?
>
> cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering
>
> Female
>
> OVARIAN CYSTADENOMA cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a moderate
> size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Preventable by spaying.
>
> EPITHELIAL (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa cell
> tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors.
> Preventable by spaying
>
> OVARIAN ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented by
> spaying female cats.
>
> GERM CELL TUMOR: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from
> embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Malignant. Ovariohysterectomy,
> chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by
> spaying.
>
> UTERINE LEIOMYOMA: the most common uterine tumor found in female cats. This
> tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually
> benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visible. Ovariohysterectomy usually
> produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> circumstances.
>
> UTERINE LEIOMYOSARCOMA: malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and
> spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable
> abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and
> chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> circumstances.
>
> UTERINE FIBROSARCOMA: very invasive malignant cancer, more common in other
> areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it will
> have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis.
> Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective if
> metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> circumstances.
>
> UTERINE ENDOMETRIAL ADENOCARCINOMA: A very common uterine tumor, usually
> occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside of
> the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This
> tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain.
> Preventable by spaying.
>
> MAMMARY GLAND NEOPLASIA: the third most common type of tumor in female cats
> comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be almost
> completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors are
> highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk or
> incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle. Most
> tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the
> breasts closer to the tail.
>
> Male
>
> SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very large as part
> of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which is the most severe
> effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone marrow damage. Often curable if
> caught early or chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen
> levels surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative.
>
> PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that
> have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate gland;
> prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this tumor
> can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis,
> and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other
> organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may
> slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
> neutering considered preventative.

What percentage of intact cats get cancer? In female rabbits studies
over 80% develope some cancer of the reproductive system. In human
studies virgin nuns have higher incident of cancer. Having babies
reduces chance of cancer.

Phil P.
November 20th 07, 12:08 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...

>
> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think
> that he could be aggressive with us?


That's probably a certainty. In fact, I would bet on it. When you play
with a kitten with your bare hands- especially roughly, you're teaching him
human bodies are toys. Kittens,- in fact most cats of all ages are
attracted to moving objects- its an integral part of their predatory stalk,
pounce, and bite instinct. If the cat was taught human bodies are toys,
moving hands and especially moving ankles- make irresistible targets.



I mean, that would still make it
> a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn?


Yes! Absolutely. First off- don't play with him with your bare hands. Use a
wand and string toy he can chase and catch. A string tied to a stick is good
enough. Just make sure the string is tied tightly to the stick and long
enough so you can drag it around and dangle it over his head. If you have a
lot of room, you might also want to get a "Kingfisher". Its a minature
fishing pole & reel with a toy attached to the string that you can cast
about 40' and back reel jerking and yanking the pole
http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/catfisher-w-suggie.jpg

Give him other toys to play with when you're not around- toys that he has to
interact with- not static stuffed mice. A really great toy is a Peek-a
Prize-
http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/Peek-a-prize-puzzle-box.jpg.
Instead of putting toys inside, use treats so when he gets one out he can
enjoy the reward of the hunt. This toy will keep occupied for hours! A Cat
Charmer is another great toy. All it is is a small piece of cardboard
attatched to a wire and mounted to the wall.

The most important thing to remember is *never* *ever* play with him when he
starts to play with you- walk away- even out of the room- and completely
ignore him. Playtime should *always* be initiated by *you*, and not by him.
Your entire famly must be consistent with this.


I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT suits.
Cats *can* be trained- there's no reason to even think about surrendering
him- especially when you are largely responsible for his behavior- I don't
mean to blame you. Its a very common mistake most first-timers make. All
that's important now is to modify his behavior.

I'll go into it a little more after he's neutered. Keep the faith, we'll get
you through this.

Phil

Cheryl
November 20th 07, 03:19 AM
On Sun 18 Nov 2007 11:32:48p, -Lost wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
>:

> OK, by spraying are we talking about the litter he sprays
> everywhere? Because there is normally litter spread in a 15
> foot radius of the box. ; )
>
Spraying as in the territory marking that male cats (and females!)
when they haven't been neutered. Stinky!

> <snip>
>
>> flavored, but none of the flavors appealled to Shamrock, so I
>> buy it unflavored and give it to him in a gelcap. Hard to do,
>> and my vet is tickled that it works, but its all in the timing.
>>
>
> Just for the record, where does one buy gel caps?
>

I get them at Whole Foods. I've bought 2 500ct bags in the last
several years, and recently had to buy a new bag. I noticed the
quality was really bad with this bag, wrote the company, and was
told they had the same issue with gelcaps they supply to companies
that fill them with medication, so they had some QA problems this
last time. The gelcap dissolved so quickly that I wasn't able to
use them with liquid medication, though I've been doing that for
years. They said they identified the problem, but it would take a
while for the corrected gelcaps to get to the market. Not
surprising, they don't manufacture the gelcaps, but they buy them
from a 3rd party. Probably from China, but I can't prove that.

--
Cheryl

CatNipped[_2_]
November 20th 07, 03:52 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think
>> that he could be aggressive with us?
>
>
> That's probably a certainty. In fact, I would bet on it. When you play
> with a kitten with your bare hands- especially roughly, you're teaching
> him
> human bodies are toys. Kittens,- in fact most cats of all ages are
> attracted to moving objects- its an integral part of their predatory
> stalk,
> pounce, and bite instinct. If the cat was taught human bodies are toys,
> moving hands and especially moving ankles- make irresistible targets.
>
>
>
> I mean, that would still make it
>> a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn?
>
>
> Yes! Absolutely. First off- don't play with him with your bare hands. Use
> a
> wand and string toy he can chase and catch. A string tied to a stick is
> good
> enough. Just make sure the string is tied tightly to the stick and long
> enough so you can drag it around and dangle it over his head. If you have
> a
> lot of room, you might also want to get a "Kingfisher". Its a minature
> fishing pole & reel with a toy attached to the string that you can cast
> about 40' and back reel jerking and yanking the pole
> http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/catfisher-w-suggie.jpg
>
> Give him other toys to play with when you're not around- toys that he has
> to
> interact with- not static stuffed mice. A really great toy is a Peek-a
> Prize-
> http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/Peek-a-prize-puzzle-box.jpg.
> Instead of putting toys inside, use treats so when he gets one out he can
> enjoy the reward of the hunt. This toy will keep occupied for hours! A
> Cat
> Charmer is another great toy. All it is is a small piece of cardboard
> attatched to a wire and mounted to the wall.
>
> The most important thing to remember is *never* *ever* play with him when
> he
> starts to play with you- walk away- even out of the room- and completely
> ignore him. Playtime should *always* be initiated by *you*, and not by
> him.
> Your entire famly must be consistent with this.
>
>
> I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
> over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT suits.

Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil - *all* the threads, not just
this one? If so you'd have seen all the advice Lost was given. You just
repeated it here, this is about the 5th or 6th times she's been given this
particular bit of advice - along with about 10 or 15 other suggestions to
help her change Gabby's behavior. Indeed, she has been doing exactly what
you've described here for quite a few weeks now to no avail.

Have you read where Gabby has taken *chunks* out of her children even
including bites and scratches to the face (Lost posted a picture of her
wounded child)? The last time Gabby attacked her daughter her husband had
to practically strangle Gabby to make him let go. This behavior has gone
quite a bit further than kitten playfulness.

I value your advice, Phil, I've asked for it myself in the past, I even
refer people to your web site as being the best, most comprehensive
information to be found on cats and cat care. But please don't jump in here
mid-stream and start calling people paranoid. Having no children of your
own, you have no idea how serious possible *serious* harm to one's child can
be to someone.

Nobody is more of an ailurophile than I, but as much as I love my furry
babies, my bare ones will always come first - that's called maternal
instinct and when you try to deny it you are denying millennia of evolution
that has hard-wired presevation of the species into our brains.

Again, I have no argument with you or your advice, but please delve a bit
more into the situation before posting accusations.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> Cats *can* be trained- there's no reason to even think about surrendering
> him- especially when you are largely responsible for his behavior- I don't
> mean to blame you. Its a very common mistake most first-timers make. All
> that's important now is to modify his behavior.
>
> I'll go into it a little more after he's neutered. Keep the faith, we'll
> get
> you through this.
>
> Phil
>
>

-Lost
November 20th 07, 04:10 PM
Response to "Phil P." >:

<snipped great ideas for play>

> A Cat Charmer is another great toy. All it is is a small piece of
> cardboard attatched to a wire and mounted to the wall.

I'm price shopping for the Peek-A-Prize and the Catfisher. However,
I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right "Cat Charmer."

https://www.petacatalog.org/prodinfo.asp?number=CA996

As far as I can tell it is a wand toy. Does it have another name?

> The most important thing to remember is *never* *ever* play with
> him when he starts to play with you- walk away- even out of the
> room- and completely ignore him. Playtime should *always* be
> initiated by *you*, and not by him. Your entire famly must be
> consistent with this.

*nods* We've been doing this and not playing with our hands at all
for several weeks now. So hopefully his behavior will continue to
go uphill -- minus the hiccups.

> I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
> over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT
> suits. Cats *can* be trained-

Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better than
despair that's for sure!

> there's no reason to even think about surrendering him- especially
> when you are largely responsible for his behavior- I don't mean to
> blame you. Its a very common mistake most first-timers make. All
> that's important now is to modify his behavior.

I totally agree. That has been a large factor in his development and
his status in this household. Since the moment I found out it wasn't
wise to play with him we stopped the behavior. Although I've
continued to feel guilty because even though it was less than two
weeks that we horse played with him, it's evident that he wishes to
continue playing how we once did.

It's the occasions that he goes overboard when it really matters.

> I'll go into it a little more after he's neutered. Keep the faith,
> we'll get you through this.

Thanks again, Phil. I'll post an update as soon as he's snipped.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 20th 07, 04:17 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "Phil P." >:
>
> <snipped great ideas for play>
>
>> A Cat Charmer is another great toy. All it is is a small piece of
>> cardboard attatched to a wire and mounted to the wall.
>
> I'm price shopping for the Peek-A-Prize and the Catfisher. However,
> I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right "Cat Charmer."
>
> https://www.petacatalog.org/prodinfo.asp?number=CA996
>
> As far as I can tell it is a wand toy. Does it have another name?
>
>> The most important thing to remember is *never* *ever* play with
>> him when he starts to play with you- walk away- even out of the
>> room- and completely ignore him. Playtime should *always* be
>> initiated by *you*, and not by him. Your entire famly must be
>> consistent with this.
>
> *nods* We've been doing this and not playing with our hands at all
> for several weeks now. So hopefully his behavior will continue to
> go uphill -- minus the hiccups.
>
>> I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
>> over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT
>> suits. Cats *can* be trained-
>
> Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
> stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better than
> despair that's for sure!

What myths have you debunked?

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
>> there's no reason to even think about surrendering him- especially
>> when you are largely responsible for his behavior- I don't mean to
>> blame you. Its a very common mistake most first-timers make. All
>> that's important now is to modify his behavior.
>
> I totally agree. That has been a large factor in his development and
> his status in this household. Since the moment I found out it wasn't
> wise to play with him we stopped the behavior. Although I've
> continued to feel guilty because even though it was less than two
> weeks that we horse played with him, it's evident that he wishes to
> continue playing how we once did.
>
> It's the occasions that he goes overboard when it really matters.
>
>> I'll go into it a little more after he's neutered. Keep the faith,
>> we'll get you through this.
>
> Thanks again, Phil. I'll post an update as soon as he's snipped.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 20th 07, 04:44 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

> Cats *can* be trained-
>>
>> Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
>> stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better
>> than despair that's for sure!
>
> What myths have you debunked?

http://www.breeders-choice.com/about/whycatsdo.htm

1. States that cats don't like watching television. Gabby does.
And I'm not talking about a momentary attention grabber, I mean he
sits there for hours sometimes less and actually watches the
television.

His current favorite things are this commercial with a talking
robotic parrot (Squawkers McCaw from FurReal Friends) and SpongeBob
SquarePants. In fact, I use On Demand from Comcast just to see him
become enthralled. I wonder if he has a thing for yellow?

2. Cats don't chase their tail. Poppycock. Gabby does and we just
recently had a thread talking about silly things cats do -- among
them, chasing their tails.

3. A swishing tail means the cat is angry. I do and don't believe
this fully. I've witnessed Gabby swishing his tail back and forth
while rubbing himself all over me. I've seen him do it before a
playful attack and a vicious attack. I've seen him do it while
watching the television.

4. Cats love to be petted. Um... no.

5. A cat cannot become trained on a litter box that is in the open.
Again, not true. Granted it is probably advisable, but our
household is an active one. There is no real place that he could
consider secluded in my opinion. Therefore from the beginning we
put the litter box in the open -- in the corner out of the way, but
in the open and in a moderately high traffic area.

6. Relating to the above: Don't change the litter box location.
Again, not true. Given the nature of this household it requires a
LOT of cleaning on a regular basis which means during the vacuuming
and sterilization process his litter box must be moved to a new
location. So to combat issues with his litter box we did this from
the beginning. Every couple of days alternating locations for his
box. We use the same spots over and over again and he's used to not
seeing it in one location and literally looking toward the other
location it might be in. He trots on over and does his thing. No
biggie.

7. Cats cannot be trained. Everything I have ever read or heard
says this yet I've seen it countless times and believe any animal
can be trained to an extent. Phil reinforced that.

Although I also wholeheartedly agree with what we talked about
before, concerning how Gabby feels from one moment to the next. If
he wants to listen then a voice command can be learned and
effectively executed. When he doesn't (which is most of the time)
then voice commands literally go in one ear and out the other. I've
overcome a lot of obstacles I think because of how liberally I apply
treats.

Just like voice commands he associates with food. He makes it a
point to ALWAYS listen to them whereas a reprimand stops him short
only for a moment, not at all, or he actually listens and stops what
he's doing.

So I really think it's a matter of, "I know what 'no' means, but your
problem is you think I care." HAHAHA!

8. Only professional nail clippers will work on cats. Um... no. I
found a page where someone successfully used human nail clippers so
I tried it making sure to keep well away from the quick and I've not
had any complaints out of Gabby yet.

I think there are more but that is all I can think of offhand.

See ya'!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 20th 07, 04:46 PM
Response to "-Lost" >:

> 4. Cats love to be petted. Um... no.

I should have said "All cats love to be petted. Um... no." Because
some do.

> 5. A cat cannot become trained on a litter box that is in the open.
> Again, not true. Granted it is probably advisable,

"Granted it is probably NOT advisable..."

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sheelagh>\o\
November 20th 07, 07:02 PM
On 17 Nov, 09:43, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 Nov, 13:50, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering
>
> > > Female
>
> > > OVARIAN CYSTADENOMA cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a
> moderate
> > > size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Preventable by spaying.
>
> > > EPITHELIAL (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa
> cell
> > > tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors.
> > > Preventable by spaying
>
> > > OVARIAN ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented
> by
> > > spaying female cats.
>
> > > GERM CELL TUMOR: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from
> > > embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Malignant. Ovariohysterectomy,
> > > chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by
> > > spaying.
>
> > > UTERINE LEIOMYOMA: the most common uterine tumor found in female cats.
> This
> > > tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually
> > > benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visible. Ovariohysterectomy
> usually
> > > produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> > > circumstances.
>
> > > UTERINE LEIOMYOSARCOMA: malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and
> > > spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable
> > > abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and
> > > chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very
> rare
> > > circumstances.
>
> > > UTERINE FIBROSARCOMA: very invasive malignant cancer, more common in
> other
> > > areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it
> will
> > > have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis.
> > > Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective
> if
> > > metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare
> > > circumstances.
>
> > > UTERINE ENDOMETRIAL ADENOCARCINOMA: A very common uterine tumor, usually
> > > occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside
> of
> > > the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This
> > > tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain.
> > > Preventable by spaying.
>
> > > MAMMARY GLAND NEOPLASIA: the third most common type of tumor in female
> cats
> > > comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be
> almost
> > > completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors
> are
> > > highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk
> or
> > > incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle.
> Most
> > > tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the
> > > breasts closer to the tail.
>
> > > Male
>
> > > SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very large as
> part
> > > of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which is the most severe
> > > effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone marrow damage. Often curable
> if
> > > caught early or chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen
> > > levels surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative.
>
> > > PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that
> > > have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate
> gland;
> > > prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this
> tumor
> > > can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the
> penis,
> > > and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other
> > > organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may
> > > slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males,
> > > neutering considered preventative.
>
> > PYOMETRA!
>
> Pyometra can become fatal very quickly if the uterus ruptures.
>
>
>
> > lilly had it.
> > Sheelagh >"o"<- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I wonder if anyone can help me with this one.

Is it true that a vet is not able to operate / spay a female if she
happens to be in call? I don't think there is a reason, but I just
need to check. Vet's is closed & I'm sure someone here must know?
I can't think of a reason why not- after all, some vets will consider
spaying a pregnant female, so why not whilst in call?
TIA,
Sheelagh >"o"<

-Lost
November 20th 07, 09:17 PM
Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" >:

> I wonder if anyone can help me with this one.
>
> Is it true that a vet is not able to operate / spay a female if she
> happens to be in call? I don't think there is a reason, but I just
> need to check. Vet's is closed & I'm sure someone here must know?
> I can't think of a reason why not- after all, some vets will consider
> spaying a pregnant female, so why not whilst in call?

Sure they can. However it is not advisable because of inflammation and
possibility for infection.

Not to mention the hormonal changes that take place could affect the
ability to heal -- no clue on that note though.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Sheelagh>\o\
November 20th 07, 11:56 PM
On 20 Nov, 21:17, "-Lost" > wrote:
> Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" >:
>
> > I wonder if anyone can help me with this one.
>
> > Is it true that a vet is not able to operate / spay a female if she
> > happens to be in call? I don't think there is a reason, but I just
> > need to check. Vet's is closed & I'm sure someone here must know?
> > I can't think of a reason why not- after all, some vets will consider
> > spaying a pregnant female, so why not whilst in call?
>
> Sure they can. However it is not advisable because of inflammation and
> possibility for infection.
>
> Not to mention the hormonal changes that take place could affect the
> ability to heal -- no clue on that note though.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

Thanks,

<Grin>,

I appreciate that very much. I have a female here that we are looking
after. Her owner has asked us to get it done in the next week if it is
possible- But she appears to be calling, so I wasn't sure whether to
try & book her in, or not as the case might be..

I'll call them in the morning just to be certain, however, what you
say does make perfect sense. They may just have to wait an extra few
weeks before they get her home, because she has asked that she be
rested first as well....
..
They have kids (7-15yrs old), & don't want the poor little girl to be
handled by any of them until she is well enough to be able to cope
with it. I figure an extra 3 weeks would help out there. I know that
as long as there are no complications, I just have to take her back
after 10 days for the vet to check the scar site & ensure that all is
well before discharging her. I'm sure they won't be too disappointed
because it's what they want, & & I don't mind doing it.

Sheelagh >"o"<

Phil P.
November 21st 07, 06:39 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "Phil P." >:
>
> <snipped great ideas for play>
>
> > A Cat Charmer is another great toy. All it is is a small piece of
> > cardboard attatched to a wire and mounted to the wall.
>
> I'm price shopping for the Peek-A-Prize and the Catfisher.


I made a Peek-A-Prize once out of a Christmas ornament cardboard box- you
know the type- it has 12 cardboad compartments? It worked but it didn't last
too long.


However,
> I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right "Cat Charmer."
>
> https://www.petacatalog.org/prodinfo.asp?number=CA996
>
> As far as I can tell it is a wand toy. Does it have another name?


Its a Cat Dancer: I always make that mistake.

http://www.catdancer.com/products.htm

Here's a video

http://www.catdancer.com/action.htm

You can hold it and play with him or attach it to a wall or doorway. It
comes with a sticky paw for attaching it to a wall. They don't show it
attached to a wall.



>
> > The most important thing to remember is *never* *ever* play with
> > him when he starts to play with you- walk away- even out of the
> > room- and completely ignore him. Playtime should *always* be
> > initiated by *you*, and not by him. Your entire famly must be
> > consistent with this.
>
> *nods* We've been doing this and not playing with our hands at all
> for several weeks now. So hopefully his behavior will continue to
> go uphill -- minus the hiccups.


When he starts to go crazy- stop playing with him and walk away- don't even
look at him. You could also get one of those key chain personal alarms or a
canned air horn to distract him when he really goes crazy. The key is
persistence. You can't let him play rough sometimes but not other other
times.


>
> > I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
> > over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT
> > suits. Cats *can* be trained-
>
> Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
> stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better than
> despair that's for sure!


Absolutely! This isn't an insurmountable problem. It might just take a
little time and patience to correct.


>
> > there's no reason to even think about surrendering him- especially
> > when you are largely responsible for his behavior- I don't mean to
> > blame you. Its a very common mistake most first-timers make. All
> > that's important now is to modify his behavior.
>
> I totally agree. That has been a large factor in his development and
> his status in this household. Since the moment I found out it wasn't
> wise to play with him we stopped the behavior. Although I've
> continued to feel guilty because even though it was less than two
> weeks that we horse played with him, it's evident that he wishes to
> continue playing how we once did.

He probably thinks that's the only way to play. Remember, play is used as
outlet for stress and to satisfy predatory instincts. So just make sure he
doesn't think of you as the prey!



>
> It's the occasions that he goes overboard when it really matters.
>
> > I'll go into it a little more after he's neutered. Keep the faith,
> > we'll get you through this.
>
> Thanks again, Phil. I'll post an update as soon as he's snipped.

OK.

Phil

Phil P.
November 21st 07, 06:41 AM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "-Lost" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think
> >> that he could be aggressive with us?
> >
> >
> > That's probably a certainty. In fact, I would bet on it. When you play
> > with a kitten with your bare hands- especially roughly, you're teaching
> > him
> > human bodies are toys. Kittens,- in fact most cats of all ages are
> > attracted to moving objects- its an integral part of their predatory
> > stalk,
> > pounce, and bite instinct. If the cat was taught human bodies are toys,
> > moving hands and especially moving ankles- make irresistible targets.
> >
> >
> >
> > I mean, that would still make it
> >> a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn?
> >
> >
> > Yes! Absolutely. First off- don't play with him with your bare hands.
Use
> > a
> > wand and string toy he can chase and catch. A string tied to a stick is
> > good
> > enough. Just make sure the string is tied tightly to the stick and long
> > enough so you can drag it around and dangle it over his head. If you
have
> > a
> > lot of room, you might also want to get a "Kingfisher". Its a minature
> > fishing pole & reel with a toy attached to the string that you can cast
> > about 40' and back reel jerking and yanking the pole
> > http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/catfisher-w-suggie.jpg
> >
> > Give him other toys to play with when you're not around- toys that he
has
> > to
> > interact with- not static stuffed mice. A really great toy is a Peek-a
> > Prize-
> >
http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/Peek-a-prize-puzzle-box.jpg.
> > Instead of putting toys inside, use treats so when he gets one out he
can
> > enjoy the reward of the hunt. This toy will keep occupied for hours! A
> > Cat
> > Charmer is another great toy. All it is is a small piece of cardboard
> > attatched to a wire and mounted to the wall.
> >
> > The most important thing to remember is *never* *ever* play with him
when
> > he
> > starts to play with you- walk away- even out of the room- and completely
> > ignore him. Playtime should *always* be initiated by *you*, and not by
> > him.
> > Your entire famly must be consistent with this.
> >
> >
> > I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
> > over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT suits.
>
> Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil -


Yes, I have. The cat needs to be retrained- not relinquished. The kids also
need to be taught how to act with the cat.

Having no children of your
> own,

I have *4* kids-- and they all survived a few bites and scratches.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 21st 07, 02:05 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

>> Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil -
>
>
> Yes, I have. The cat needs to be retrained- not relinquished. The kids
> also
> need to be taught how to act with the cat.

Then how did you miss the many, many posts where we told "-Lost" to not play
with Gabby with her hands, to ignore Gabby when he got rambunctious, to give
Gabby "time outs" when he attacked, to use wands and other toys, to teach
the children how to act around cats (in other words, the same things you're
telling her here where she's acting like she's never heard this advice
before and "oh Phil, you're so wise, that's exactly what I'll do - you saved
Gabby's life!"(1) Um, let's see how many times *have* we told you these
things "-Lost"?

And yet she still "reported" "viscious" attacks when her kids were "just
walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical mistake today... please
help..." post (the one where she posted pictures of her injured child and I
said the injuries were minor, keep trying). What about the "Update: Gabby
and whether or not we have killed him yet. Warning: LONG." where "-Lost" was
saying they were thinking of bringing him to the pound to be euthanized
since she wouldn't be able to stand it to do it herself at a vet?

Exerpts from her posts about euthanizing:

==================
"I have been in the room and watching during the attacks and have seen them
from beginning to end (I actually mentioned this a few other times I
posted). I can vouch that EVERYONE including my youngest daughter were not
doing ANYTHING to the cat."
"To be honest, it may be a cop out, but that is why I would take him to the
pound. I could not bear to take him to a vet and sit there while it
happened or to know it was happening while I waited or even as I left."
"The only thing I know for certain is that if he does this as an adult to
one of my children again (the total number of SERIOUS attacks are no[w] at
8) he is going to the pound where he will be euthanized -- no questions
asked. "
"Now, believe me, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from and I know your
heart is in the right place, but this fanatical cat worship that prompts you
or anyone else to be concerned about a problematic cat (he's not really that
problematic in my opinion, it's just the violence, more on that in a minute)
and not mention a SINGLE thing about my young children who live in fear of
this little beasties' crazy hyper-rage spells does NOTHING in the way of
making me remorseful to what MAY have to happen to Gabby one day."
==================

It had seemed to me that she had given up hope of ever training Gabby, said
she could not find another home for Gabby, and was considering euthanizing
him. *YES* I advised her to try to find a no-kill shelter or other home
*after* trying even more behavior modification. Pardon me for taking
"-Lost" at her word - it won't happen again.(1)

(1)At this point I'm beginning to think that "-Lost" may just be a very good
troll - she *has* gotten us to exchange words when we've managed to be
friendly to one another for years. But this will be the last post where I
do! I respect you too much to get into a flame war over this.

> Having no children of your
>> own,
>
> I have *4* kids-- and they all survived a few bites and scratches.

Sorry, I never heard you mention your kids before. But...

"-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said that Gabby
was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her children and that her
husband had to *choke* Gabby to get him off of her daughter. *YES* I'd
rather see Gabby re-homed than choked or euthanized if it happens again.

Excerpts from her posts about the attacks:

===============
" My beautiful, beautiful girls already have so many scars from this little
bundle of sinewy terror."
"Having trained my children to know how to react to some animals I saw the
look in my oldest daughter's eyes when Gabby was dangling from her shoulder
meat the other day -- "Do I put a finger in Gabby's eyes?", "Do I try and
compress his windpipe?" HAHA! "
"Believe me, I know! Gabby's last two attacks have been VERY serious. He
gets himself worked into such a frenzy that he refuses to let go."
"This last episode he actually shook his head back and forth on one of my
daughter's shoulders ripping several tooth holes in her shirt and of course
her skin."
"He has attacked a total of 8 times now. The last were REALLY serious. He
tore a PLUG out of one of my daughter's hands AND her wrist and that was
compounded by the 20+ deep grooves cut into her arm as he jockeyed for a
better position."
===============

Anyway, if you want to continue advising "-Lost" while she sucks up to you
like she was doing to me (yes, I saw exactly what she was doing, but ignored
it while trying to indirectly help Gabby just in case it wasn't an elaborate
troll), then have at it. Let me give you the program though... First she'll
post, "oh my, I need help with such and such please someone help", then
after you reply, "oh my, what good advice, you are so smart, you are so
wise, I want to learn at the font of your wisdom", then another post, "since
you are so wise about cats, what about this problem" - and on and on. Have
fun!

Hugs,

CatNipped

-Lost
November 21st 07, 05:17 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>>> Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil -
>>
>> Yes, I have. The cat needs to be retrained- not relinquished.
>> The kids also
>> need to be taught how to act with the cat.
>
> Then how did you miss the many, many posts where we told "-Lost"
> to not play with Gabby with her hands, to ignore Gabby when he got
> rambunctious, to give Gabby "time outs" when he attacked, to use
> wands and other toys, to teach the children how to act around cats
> (in other words, the same things you're telling her here where
> she's acting like she's never heard this advice before and "oh
> Phil, you're so wise, that's exactly what I'll do - you saved
> Gabby's life!"(1) Um, let's see how many times *have* we told you
> these things "-Lost"?

I knew something was up when you asked me what generalizations about
cats I thought were not entirely accurate, but I had no clue you
thought this ill of me.

I thought I made it clear the only thing that I said "thanks for
that" to was Phil saying that cats could be trained.

**********
> I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
> over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT
> suits. Cats *can* be trained-

Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better than
despair that's for sure!"
**********

Notice how I specifically did not address anything he said about
paranoia, because I felt as though I was included in that statement.
However, because of how evident it was that Phil's expertise has
helped everyone here time and time again you actually expected me to
start arguing with someone who is apparently the group's savior for
medical information?

Also, if everyone repeats the EXACT SAME INFORMATION what am I to do?
Act like an arrogant arse and tell everyone that I've heard it time
and time again while I sit here asking for more methods to teach
Gabby right from wrong?

And how did I act like I've not heard this advice before? The only
things I've said is "OK" and "thank you" to everyone who offers
constructive criticism.

The only new thing is neutering and that was a combination of
everyone's opinions on it and Phil's MEDICAL EVIDENCE that prompted a
decision.

> And yet she still "reported" "viscious" attacks when her kids were
> "just walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical mistake
> today... please help..." post (the one where she posted pictures
> of her injured child and I said the injuries were minor, keep
> trying). What about the "Update: Gabby and whether or not we have
> killed him yet. Warning: LONG." where "-Lost" was saying they were
> thinking of bringing him to the pound to be euthanized since she
> wouldn't be able to stand it to do it herself at a vet?

First of all, I said if he does this AS AN ADULT. And that our
choice would have to be to let him go and ONLY if there is not an
available home he would most definitely have to go the pound, where
there policy is to euthanize.

And yeah, I called it a critical mistake because it was my not even 2
year old daughter walking past him and he leaped on her face. Excuse
me!

> Exerpts from her posts about euthanizing:
>
> ==================
> "I have been in the room and watching during the attacks and have
> seen them from beginning to end (I actually mentioned this a few
> other times I posted). I can vouch that EVERYONE including my
> youngest daughter were not doing ANYTHING to the cat."
> "To be honest, it may be a cop out, but that is why I would take
> him to the pound. I could not bear to take him to a vet and sit
> there while it happened or to know it was happening while I waited
> or even as I left." "The only thing I know for certain is that if
> he does this as an adult to one of my children again (the total
> number of SERIOUS attacks are no[w] at 8) he is going to the pound
> where he will be euthanized -- no questions asked. "
> "Now, believe me, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from and I
> know your heart is in the right place, but this fanatical cat
> worship that prompts you or anyone else to be concerned about a
> problematic cat (he's not really that problematic in my opinion,
> it's just the violence, more on that in a minute) and not mention
> a SINGLE thing about my young children who live in fear of this
> little beasties' crazy hyper-rage spells does NOTHING in the way
> of making me remorseful to what MAY have to happen to Gabby one
> day." ==================

This is several posts taken out of context, but whatever...

I don't get it. I am not allowed to say that if Gabby continues to
be an aggressive cat on into his adulthood that he'll have to hit the
road? And if that road happens to lead to the pound as opposed to a
home or if the refuge has room, then that is where it leads him?

And for the record at the pound at least he would have 5 days where
someone might adopt him. The whole point was that I could not send
Gabby to his death and just sit there like nothing was happening.

> It had seemed to me that she had given up hope of ever training
> Gabby, said she could not find another home for Gabby, and was
> considering euthanizing him. *YES* I advised her to try to find a
> no-kill shelter or other home *after* trying even more behavior
> modification. Pardon me for taking "-Lost" at her word - it won't
> happen again.(1)

No, I hadn't. And I don't believe I ever said that I was giving up.
What the heck were the posts for asking for help!?

That is why I post dramatic titles and wrap sensitive words in
quotations like "choke." I did it every damn time I used the word
because it wasn't an actual choke hold, but it was definitely a tight
grip. How else do you remove a biting animal from something if it
doesn't want to let go?

> (1)At this point I'm beginning to think that "-Lost" may just be a
> very good troll - she *has* gotten us to exchange words when we've
> managed to be friendly to one another for years. But this will be
> the last post where I do! I respect you too much to get into a
> flame war over this.

You are kidding right? YOU are the one who jumped Phil's ****e, not
I. I merely thanked him for reaffirming my suspicions that cat's
could indeed be trained. I believe I even told you that, but you
seem to think that was kissing your arse?

Or was it because I thanked you kindly for EVERY last bit of help you
gave me?

I cannot believe for how intelligent of a person I thought you were
that you are actually saying that I adopted a damned stray cat,
vaccinated him, housed him, and took care of him for the past few
months all in some elaborate plan to get you to argue with Phil.

Wow.

>> Having no children of your
>>> own,
>>
>> I have *4* kids-- and they all survived a few bites and
>> scratches.
>
> Sorry, I never heard you mention your kids before. But...
>
> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
> children and that her husband had to *choke* Gabby to get him off
> of her daughter. *YES* I'd rather see Gabby re-homed than choked
> or euthanized if it happens again.

You used asterisks which illustrate excitement or emphasis. I used
quotations because it was "for lack of better word" and to illustrate
how dramatic it was at the time.

And I have PICTURES that show the damage he did to my 6 year old's
hand, wrist, and forearm. I'll work on getting these posted today if
possible and I'll update you or this thread one.

> Excerpts from her posts about the attacks:
>
> ===============
> " My beautiful, beautiful girls already have so many scars from
> this little bundle of sinewy terror."
> "Having trained my children to know how to react to some animals I
> saw the look in my oldest daughter's eyes when Gabby was dangling
> from her shoulder meat the other day -- "Do I put a finger in
> Gabby's eyes?", "Do I try and compress his windpipe?" HAHA! "
> "Believe me, I know! Gabby's last two attacks have been VERY
> serious. He gets himself worked into such a frenzy that he
> refuses to let go." "This last episode he actually shook his head
> back and forth on one of my daughter's shoulders ripping several
> tooth holes in her shirt and of course her skin."
> "He has attacked a total of 8 times now. The last were REALLY
> serious. He tore a PLUG out of one of my daughter's hands AND her
> wrist and that was compounded by the 20+ deep grooves cut into her
> arm as he jockeyed for a better position."
> ===============

I have taken pictures of everything he has ever done and recently
began video taping him too (partly why I asked about your video
methods in another of your posts).

When I have them all up I'll make sure to show them to you.
(Although I think I posted a few, I cannot remember for sure.)

> Anyway, if you want to continue advising "-Lost" while she sucks
> up to you like she was doing to me (yes, I saw exactly what she
> was doing, but ignored it while trying to indirectly help Gabby
> just in case it wasn't an elaborate troll), then have at it. Let
> me give you the program though... First she'll post, "oh my, I
> need help with such and such please someone help", then after you
> reply, "oh my, what good advice, you are so smart, you are so
> wise, I want to learn at the font of your wisdom", then another
> post, "since you are so wise about cats, what about this problem"
> - and on and on. Have fun!

AGAIN, all I did was say "thanks for that." And it was in direct
reply to cats having the ability to learn from training.

And yes, he posted scientific EVIDENCE which is (almost) exactly what
I asked for. So just like you I thanked him kindly and then offered
another question for his perusal.

Did I somehow ask for information in the wrong manner? You are
saying that to ask a question, then be thankful for a response, then
ask another question is a faux pas. Does that make any sense?

In all seriousness CatNipped, how should I have been treating you for
you to not think this about me? I tried to participate actively in
this group, I sought help when I didn't know any other proven methods
from experienced cat owners, I made my points VERY clear -- both that
I would not tolerate the behavior as an adult cat AND that I was
bending over backward to make Gabby a permanent member of the
household, all the while thanking every single one of you profusely.

And now I get called a troll for being thankful for continued
constructive feedback?

Don't forget I have others in this household who said maybe we should
get rid of Gabby. It was from all these posts that I garnered more
information and ideas and was able to put everyone's minds at ease --
proving that I was coming up with new things to try out was much
better than saying screw it, I've no idea what to do about the kitty!

I'll say this, call me what you will, but I simply do exactly what
you or anyone else does -- and that is try to be polite as possible
without offending anyone.

So, if somehow I actually did something to deserve this bash, then I
apologize to you and you alone. This not an attempt to "suck up."
Mostly I just feel stupid for thinking you've been helping me since
the "cry Uncle" video and I'm trying to be sincere regardless.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 21st 07, 05:45 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
> children

Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434

I'll have update more eventually, but I have everything older than
November 2nd backuped on the server. So when I have the time,
hopefully today, I'll upload more.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 21st 07, 06:17 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>>>> Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil -
>>>
>>> Yes, I have. The cat needs to be retrained- not relinquished.
>>> The kids also
>>> need to be taught how to act with the cat.
>>
>> Then how did you miss the many, many posts where we told "-Lost"
>> to not play with Gabby with her hands, to ignore Gabby when he got
>> rambunctious, to give Gabby "time outs" when he attacked, to use
>> wands and other toys, to teach the children how to act around cats
>> (in other words, the same things you're telling her here where
>> she's acting like she's never heard this advice before and "oh
>> Phil, you're so wise, that's exactly what I'll do - you saved
>> Gabby's life!"(1) Um, let's see how many times *have* we told you
>> these things "-Lost"?
>
> I knew something was up when you asked me what generalizations about
> cats I thought were not entirely accurate, but I had no clue you
> thought this ill of me.
>
> I thought I made it clear the only thing that I said "thanks for
> that" to was Phil saying that cats could be trained.
>
> **********
>> I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
>> over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT
>> suits. Cats *can* be trained-
>
> Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
> stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better than
> despair that's for sure!"
> **********

No, you didn't make it very clear at all. The implication was that you were
in despair over the myths given you previously by paranoid and
over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT suits.

>
> Notice how I specifically did not address anything he said about
> paranoia, because I felt as though I was included in that statement.
> However, because of how evident it was that Phil's expertise has
> helped everyone here time and time again you actually expected me to
> start arguing with someone who is apparently the group's savior for
> medical information?

No, not at all, but telling him he has given you hope when all he is doing
is repeating advice already given is a bit beyond simply not arguing..

>
> Also, if everyone repeats the EXACT SAME INFORMATION what am I to do?
> Act like an arrogant arse and tell everyone that I've heard it time
> and time again while I sit here asking for more methods to teach
> Gabby right from wrong?

How about an honest, "yes, someone told me that and I've tried it and it
didn't work."?

>
> And how did I act like I've not heard this advice before? The only
> things I've said is "OK" and "thank you" to everyone who offers
> constructive criticism.

The "given me hope" comment.

>
> The only new thing is neutering and that was a combination of
> everyone's opinions on it and Phil's MEDICAL EVIDENCE that prompted a
> decision.

Here is where I think you're being disingenuous and possibly trolling.
You've said you have many, many animals and are used to dealing with them
and their medical problems. What was so amazing to you about the concept
that neutering, thus reducing testosterone, would help stem aggressive
behavior? Your questions have become more of a "gee whiz guys what's up
with this" type of seemingly false naivet that doesn't jibe with the other
knowledge you claim to have.

>
>> And yet she still "reported" "vicious" attacks when her kids were
>> "just walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical mistake
>> today... please help..." post (the one where she posted pictures
>> of her injured child and I said the injuries were minor, keep
>> trying). What about the "Update: Gabby and whether or not we have
>> killed him yet. Warning: LONG." where "-Lost" was saying they were
>> thinking of bringing him to the pound to be euthanized since she
>> wouldn't be able to stand it to do it herself at a vet?
>
> First of all, I said if he does this AS AN ADULT. And that our
> choice would have to be to let him go and ONLY if there is not an
> available home he would most definitely have to go the pound, where
> there policy is to euthanize.

No, actually, that is not what you said, which is why I provided quotes.
And whether or not they were presented "out of context", their content
leaves no doubt about what you were discussing. And just how is it any
better, anyway, to wait until he is an adult to take him to the pound to be
euthanized? If you're going to do it, do it now while he's a kitten and
still has some chance of being adopted - adult cats are lucky if they even
wait the 5 days since nobody wants someone else's problem cat!

Let me try to make this clear, I've told you that I am an ailurophile - you
need to look that up in the dictionary if you have any doubts about what
that means. Since my family are the only beings dearer to me than my cats
(whom I think of as family), I would not consider euthanizing a cat for
*any* reason. My children learned, from the time they were born, how to
deal with cats, but they still had their share of bites and scratches - that
was never a reason for me to even *think* about "getting rid of" a cat in
*any* manner much less euthanasia.

However, since you are *not* an ailurophile, I was "working with" someone
for whom euthanasia was clearly not out of the question, so I geared my
answers to deal with that. That probably came off to some here, like Phil,
as 'selling out', but that was OK with me if I could get you to change
Gabby's behavior and save his life OR find someone (besides the pound) who
would take Gabby from you and save his life.

>
> And yeah, I called it a critical mistake because it was my not even 2
> year old daughter walking past him and he leaped on her face. Excuse
> me!

I'm not saying that, from what you reported, his attacks weren't vicious or
unprovoked. I said the opposite, in fact.

>
>> Excerpts from her posts about euthanizing:
>>
>> ==================
>> "I have been in the room and watching during the attacks and have
>> seen them from beginning to end (I actually mentioned this a few
>> other times I posted). I can vouch that EVERYONE including my
>> youngest daughter were not doing ANYTHING to the cat."
>> "To be honest, it may be a cop out, but that is why I would take
>> him to the pound. I could not bear to take him to a vet and sit
>> there while it happened or to know it was happening while I waited
>> or even as I left." "The only thing I know for certain is that if
>> he does this as an adult to one of my children again (the total
>> number of SERIOUS attacks are no[w] at 8) he is going to the pound
>> where he will be euthanized -- no questions asked. "
>> "Now, believe me, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from and I
>> know your heart is in the right place, but this fanatical cat
>> worship that prompts you or anyone else to be concerned about a
>> problematic cat (he's not really that problematic in my opinion,
>> it's just the violence, more on that in a minute) and not mention
>> a SINGLE thing about my young children who live in fear of this
>> little beasties' crazy hyper-rage spells does NOTHING in the way
>> of making me remorseful to what MAY have to happen to Gabby one
>> day." ==================
>
> This is several posts taken out of context, but whatever...
>
> I don't get it. I am not allowed to say that if Gabby continues to
> be an aggressive cat on into his adulthood that he'll have to hit the
> road? And if that road happens to lead to the pound as opposed to a
> home or if the refuge has room, then that is where it leads him?

That's exactly what we here were trying to prevent. And you know what else?
That's exactly what trolls to this group like to come here and say so they
can sit back and watch all the "crazy cat people" go nuts. See why this is
looking like an elaborate troll to me (in fact when you first started
posting there was at least on other regular here who surmised that you might
be trolling)?

>
> And for the record at the pound at least he would have 5 days where
> someone might adopt him. The whole point was that I could not send
> Gabby to his death and just sit there like nothing was happening.

If you're going to send a cat to his death, then why not just face that fact
instead of trying to fool yourself that he might be adopted (yeah, let's not
sully our conscience with his death, let's pretend he was adopted by some
nice people instead)?

>
>> It had seemed to me that she had given up hope of ever training
>> Gabby, said she could not find another home for Gabby, and was
>> considering euthanizing him. *YES* I advised her to try to find a
>> no-kill shelter or other home *after* trying even more behavior
>> modification. Pardon me for taking "-Lost" at her word - it won't
>> happen again.(1)
>
> No, I hadn't. And I don't believe I ever said that I was giving up.
> What the heck were the posts for asking for help!?

Again, could be trolling. It might not be and, if not, I apologize, but if
it is let me congratulate you on an excellent job.

>
> That is why I post dramatic titles and wrap sensitive words in
> quotations like "choke." I did it every damn time I used the word
> because it wasn't an actual choke hold, but it was definitely a tight
> grip. How else do you remove a biting animal from something if it
> doesn't want to let go?

And, again, posting dramatic titles and using words like "choke" in a cats
group is guaranteed to get a reaction.

>
>> (1)At this point I'm beginning to think that "-Lost" may just be a
>> very good troll - she *has* gotten us to exchange words when we've
>> managed to be friendly to one another for years. But this will be
>> the last post where I do! I respect you too much to get into a
>> flame war over this.
>
> You are kidding right? YOU are the one who jumped Phil's ****e, not
> I. I merely thanked him for reaffirming my suspicions that cat's
> could indeed be trained. I believe I even told you that, but you
> seem to think that was kissing your arse?

Phil is an excellent, unparalleled source of information on cats. Phil is
not always diplomatic in his response to people he feels are not doing right
by cats. He is also very, very busy with his rescue work and, along with
his other, monitored, group he has other things to do than read every single
post here. I took affront that he accused me, a long-time regular, of being
paranoid when he obviously had not followed Gabby's story from the
beginning.

>
> Or was it because I thanked you kindly for EVERY last bit of help you
> gave me?
>
> I cannot believe for how intelligent of a person I thought you were
> that you are actually saying that I adopted a damned stray cat,
> vaccinated him, housed him, and took care of him for the past few
> months all in some elaborate plan to get you to argue with Phil.

And there are actually people who use all of their free time making up
scenarios in order to troll newsgroups - why not, it's fun! Wow.

<snipped for time - I'm busy at work today and can't respond to it all>

Again, if I'm wrong about you being a troll, I apologize. If you're not
trolling the newsgroup then you need to be aware of the fact that certain
words and statements can be *very* inflammatory. By all means don't let
that fact deter you, but be aware that the reactions you get might not be
what you wanted (unless you are a troll then they'll be exactly what you
wanted).

Hell, I apologize anyway in either case - my arthritis in my hands is
killing me and I don't want to be pounding a keyboard arguing over this.

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped[_2_]
November 21st 07, 07:54 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
>> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
>> children
>
> Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
> authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434

Good lord!!! That really does look nasty - poor child! Be sure to keep an
eye on it, if it gets the least bit red take her to a doctor - cat bites are
the *most* likely to get infected than any other animals'.

And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were right, I
was ****ed off at what Phil said and I took it out on you rather than on
him. I can be a real bitch at times (just ask anyone here)!

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> I'll have update more eventually, but I have everything older than
> November 2nd backuped on the server. So when I have the time,
> hopefully today, I'll upload more.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 21st 07, 07:59 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

OK, I just want to defend a few points you made.

<snip>

>> **********
>>> I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and
>>> over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in
>>> HAZMAT suits. Cats *can* be trained-
>>
>> Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
>> stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better
>> than despair that's for sure!"
>> **********
>
> No, you didn't make it very clear at all. The implication was
> that you were in despair over the myths given you previously by
> paranoid and over-protective mothers who think kids should be
> raised in HAZMAT suits.

I thought by saying "I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to
stimuli..." would have made that clear.

Unless by stimuli you thought I allowed Gabby to read Phil's
statement about paranoid mothers?

I'm not trying to be an arse, this is honestly how I see it. I may
not have made it entirely clear -- but it sounded right as it spilled
from my noggin.

>> Notice how I specifically did not address anything he said about
>> paranoia, because I felt as though I was included in that
>> statement. However, because of how evident it was that Phil's
>> expertise has helped everyone here time and time again you
>> actually expected me to start arguing with someone who is
>> apparently the group's savior for medical information?
>
> No, not at all, but telling him he has given you hope when all he
> is doing is repeating advice already given is a bit beyond simply
> not arguing..

OK, I didn't say "[he] gave me hope." I said "hope is better than
despair." Of course that is moot since I was not referring to
anything but the training of a cat.

My apologies if I muddled the point.

>> Also, if everyone repeats the EXACT SAME INFORMATION what am I to
>> do? Act like an arrogant arse and tell everyone that I've heard
>> it time and time again while I sit here asking for more methods
>> to teach Gabby right from wrong?
>
> How about an honest, "yes, someone told me that and I've tried it
> and it didn't work."?

OK, noted for the future. Although I think it stinks that everyone
is quick to throw the troll card on someone simply because they did
not think how the accuser supposedly would have.

>> And how did I act like I've not heard this advice before? The
>> only things I've said is "OK" and "thank you" to everyone who
>> offers constructive criticism.
>
> The "given me hope" comment.

Didn't say that exactly, but I see how it could have been
misconstrued.

My apologies.

>> The only new thing is neutering and that was a combination of
>> everyone's opinions on it and Phil's MEDICAL EVIDENCE that
>> prompted a decision.
>
> Here is where I think you're being disingenuous and possibly
> trolling. You've said you have many, many animals and are used to
> dealing with them and their medical problems. What was so amazing
> to you about the concept that neutering, thus reducing
> testosterone, would help stem aggressive behavior? Your questions
> have become more of a "gee whiz guys what's up with this" type of
> seemingly false naivet that doesn't jibe with the other knowledge
> you claim to have.

Sweetheart, I know about draining infections, giving out
vaccinations, and general care for domestic and farm animals. I
don't believe I ever said I was an expert at chopping bits off.

I also didn't feel that I came on here in a little girl scout uniform
with my finger in my mouth asking if someone "would pwetty, pwetty
pwease hewp me." As I typed that I had a smile on my face. Not to
be snarky or anything, I just found it amusing.

>>> And yet she still "reported" "vicious" attacks when her kids
>>> were "just walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical
>>> mistake today... please help..." post (the one where she posted
>>> pictures of her injured child and I said the injuries were
>>> minor, keep trying). What about the "Update: Gabby and whether
>>> or not we have killed him yet. Warning: LONG." where "-Lost" was
>>> saying they were thinking of bringing him to the pound to be
>>> euthanized since she wouldn't be able to stand it to do it
>>> herself at a vet?
>>
>> First of all, I said if he does this AS AN ADULT. And that our
>> choice would have to be to let him go and ONLY if there is not an
>> available home he would most definitely have to go the pound,
>> where there policy is to euthanize.
>
> No, actually, that is not what you said, which is why I provided
> quotes. And whether or not they were presented "out of context",
> their content leaves no doubt about what you were discussing. And
> just how is it any better, anyway, to wait until he is an adult to
> take him to the pound to be euthanized? If you're going to do it,
> do it now while he's a kitten and still has some chance of being
> adopted - adult cats are lucky if they even wait the 5 days since
> nobody wants someone else's problem cat!

**********
The only thing I know for certain is that if he does this as an adult
to one of my children again (the total number of SERIOUS attacks are
not at 8) he is going to the pound where he will be euthanized -- no
questions asked. But enough of that negative thinking -- my boy has
been behaving GREAT for almost a week!
**********

I cannot find the other post but I did mention in another related
post that I had previously searched for homes, talked with the
refuge, contacted my vet, and had recently gotten a few numbers for
some cat places from PetSmart.

So I again, I may have muddled the point. It was my intention to
illustrate that if it happened again he would be leaving this home.
And YES, I would try to find him a decent home first, I'm sure of
that. Regardless of what I might say.

And you are totally right about the kitten versus adult topic.
However, I'd like to never bring it up again (although it may happen)
because I will not willingly take his life. That really is not what
I'm trying to focus on. I think I just have the habit of saying what
the hell ever comes to mind and made me sound like an arse.

I want Gabby to grow old on my lap and I want everyone in this
household to smile when they see him enter the room. Period.

> Let me try to make this clear, I've told you that I am an
> ailurophile - you need to look that up in the dictionary if you
> have any doubts about what that means. Since my family are the
> only beings dearer to me than my cats (whom I think of as family),
> I would not consider euthanizing a cat for *any* reason. My
> children learned, from the time they were born, how to deal with
> cats, but they still had their share of bites and scratches - that
> was never a reason for me to even *think* about "getting rid of" a
> cat in *any* manner much less euthanasia.

> However, since you are *not* an ailurophile, I was "working with"
> someone for whom euthanasia was clearly not out of the question,
> so I geared my answers to deal with that. That probably came off
> to some here, like Phil, as 'selling out', but that was OK with me
> if I could get you to change Gabby's behavior and save his life OR
> find someone (besides the pound) who would take Gabby from you and
> save his life.

If you absolutely think it's an idiotic idea just tell me. I've been
disabled for a LONG time so one more person saying my thinking is
screwed or that I'm an idiot won't bother me, I promise.

And again, for the record, it is out of the question. If it happens
as a result of me not being able to find him a home, I don't consider
that as me purposely putting him on the chopping block. That may
sound horrible too, I don't know.

>> And yeah, I called it a critical mistake because it was my not
>> even 2 year old daughter walking past him and he leaped on her
>> face. Excuse me!
>
> I'm not saying that, from what you reported, his attacks weren't
> vicious or unprovoked. I said the opposite, in fact.

I didn't understand that. But I do know that I DID NOT say that
anyone in this house provoked him.

<snip>

>> I don't get it. I am not allowed to say that if Gabby continues
>> to be an aggressive cat on into his adulthood that he'll have to
>> hit the road? And if that road happens to lead to the pound as
>> opposed to a home or if the refuge has room, then that is where
>> it leads him?
>
> That's exactly what we here were trying to prevent. And you know
> what else? That's exactly what trolls to this group like to come
> here and say so they can sit back and watch all the "crazy cat
> people" go nuts. See why this is looking like an elaborate troll
> to me (in fact when you first started posting there was at least
> on other regular here who surmised that you might be trolling)?

I totally understand that, but it's not like I've posted videos about
drowning cats, talked about having a cat farm to produce cat skins,
talked about shooting feral cats in a cage, or some of the other
horrible stuff I've seen here. Also, I've stuck around. I've been
here for several months and this is the first incident aside from the
one you just mentioned that there has been a problem (at least, I
think so).

Now, for that incident, it was cybercat I believe who thought I was
telling a fib because I seem to remember that farmer had some of his
outside cats declawed or perhaps just trimmed very well because a lot
of them would either suckle or lap at the teat of a cow. My memory
is not the best and I'm talking about when I was kid, but I remember
for a fact: cats, cows, milk, and something was done to protect teats
from getting scratched.

So that's hardly trolling, especially since someone else even
partially confirmed what I was talking about.

>> And for the record at the pound at least he would have 5 days
>> where someone might adopt him. The whole point was that I could
>> not send Gabby to his death and just sit there like nothing was
>> happening.
>
> If you're going to send a cat to his death, then why not just face
> that fact instead of trying to fool yourself that he might be
> adopted (yeah, let's not sully our conscience with his death,
> let's pretend he was adopted by some nice people instead)?

I didn't say I would be fooled, but fair point. My problem would be
sitting there while they did it. Either way, I'm done with that
thought (like I've said before).

<snip>

>> No, I hadn't. And I don't believe I ever said that I was giving
>> up. What the heck were the posts for asking for help!?
>
> Again, could be trolling. It might not be and, if not, I
> apologize, but if it is let me congratulate you on an excellent
> job.

I would most definitely appreciate an explanation on how to not
appear to be trolling then when I post an update on Gabby's progress
and how the household feels about him in general, how I feel, or
asking for help -- by the way, something I see EVERYONE doing
constantly.

I accept your apology then because I am not doing anything negative
on purpose. See below.

>> That is why I post dramatic titles and wrap sensitive words in
>> quotations like "choke." I did it every damn time I used the
>> word because it wasn't an actual choke hold, but it was
>> definitely a tight grip. How else do you remove a biting animal
>> from something if it doesn't want to let go?
>
> And, again, posting dramatic titles and using words like "choke"
> in a cats group is guaranteed to get a reaction.

A mistake. I thought it was sufficient to illustrate that it was not
literal.

>>> (1)At this point I'm beginning to think that "-Lost" may just be
>>> a very good troll - she *has* gotten us to exchange words when
>>> we've managed to be friendly to one another for years. But this
>>> will be the last post where I do! I respect you too much to get
>>> into a flame war over this.
>>
>> You are kidding right? YOU are the one who jumped Phil's ****e,
>> not I. I merely thanked him for reaffirming my suspicions that
>> cat's could indeed be trained. I believe I even told you that,
>> but you seem to think that was kissing your arse?
>
> Phil is an excellent, unparalleled source of information on cats.
> Phil is not always diplomatic in his response to people he feels
> are not doing right by cats. He is also very, very busy with his
> rescue work and, along with his other, monitored, group he has
> other things to do than read every single post here. I took
> affront that he accused me, a long-time regular, of being paranoid
> when he obviously had not followed Gabby's story from the
> beginning.

OK. I could be wrong, but then doesn't that make it a *SMALL* matter
between you and him? And not that I somehow masterminded the entire
thing?

>> I cannot believe for how intelligent of a person I thought you
>> were that you are actually saying that I adopted a damned stray
>> cat, vaccinated him, housed him, and took care of him for the
>> past few months all in some elaborate plan to get you to argue
>> with Phil.
>
> And there are actually people who use all of their free time
> making up scenarios in order to troll newsgroups - why not, it's
> fun! Wow.

I made it up so well that a cat named Gabby appeared? I cut my
children in creative patterns so I could tease a cat newsgroup? I've
been sneaking into someone else's home and taking pictures of their
cat and on occasion I would sneak my children, dogs, and some of the
other animals into their home so I could take "believable" pictures?

I see where you're coming from, but surely I haven't said such stupid
****e for you to think I qualify in these areas?

> <snipped for time - I'm busy at work today and can't respond to it
> all>
>
> Again, if I'm wrong about you being a troll, I apologize. If
> you're not trolling the newsgroup then you need to be aware of the
> fact that certain words and statements can be *very* inflammatory.
> By all means don't let that fact deter you, but be aware that the
> reactions you get might not be what you wanted (unless you are a
> troll then they'll be exactly what you wanted).

OK, I'll definitely bear that in mind when next I post. Until now no
one has gotten upset with me so I assumed everyone could see that I
was not some kitty hater and I just talked (typed) dramatically.

Again, my apologies because it was not my intention to offend anyone
or give the impression that Gabby's life was so dangerously close to
ending.

> Hell, I apologize anyway in either case - my arthritis in my hands
> is killing me and I don't want to be pounding a keyboard arguing
> over this.

It may not mean much to you if you think I'm up to no good, but I
just wanted to say I appreciate you explaining this rationally to me
and I apologize if anything I ever said sounded completely moronic,
offensive, or anything else I'm not covering.

See ya', lass.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 21st 07, 08:03 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>>
>>> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
>>> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
>>> children
>>
>> Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
>>
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
>> authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
>
> Good lord!!! That really does look nasty - poor child! Be sure
> to keep an eye on it, if it gets the least bit red take her to a
> doctor - cat bites are the *most* likely to get infected than any
> other animals'.
>
> And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were
> right, I was ****ed off at what Phil said and I took it out on you
> rather than on him. I can be a real bitch at times (just ask
> anyone here)!

It is TOTALLY OK! I really am sorry if I said inappropriate things
that led you or anyone to believe I was trying to cause mischief in
this group.

AND PLEASE IGNORE my other post (I just replied to your reply about
being busy at work)! It isn't even worth talking about anymore.

And sorry to hear about your arthritis by the way, I forgot that. My
carpel tunnel is playing hell on the typing too.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 21st 07, 08:22 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>>>
>>>> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
>>>> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
>>>> children
>>>
>>> Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
>>>
>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
>>> authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
>>
>> Good lord!!! That really does look nasty - poor child! Be sure
>> to keep an eye on it, if it gets the least bit red take her to a
>> doctor - cat bites are the *most* likely to get infected than any
>> other animals'.
>>
>> And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were
>> right, I was ****ed off at what Phil said and I took it out on you
>> rather than on him. I can be a real bitch at times (just ask
>> anyone here)!
>
> It is TOTALLY OK! I really am sorry if I said inappropriate things
> that led you or anyone to believe I was trying to cause mischief in
> this group.

No problem - it was my fault for jumping to inaccurate conclusions (an
explanation, but not an excuse, is that we get *MUCHO* trolls in these
groups - some are simple "how to cook a cat" crap, but some very convoluted
and involved.)

>
> AND PLEASE IGNORE my other post (I just replied to your reply about
> being busy at work)! It isn't even worth talking about anymore.

I understand, I was being snarky and deserved it anyway. OK everyone,
Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya... ;>

>
> And sorry to hear about your arthritis by the way, I forgot that. My
> carpel tunnel is playing hell on the typing too.

Yep, it's more of a bitch than I am! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

-Lost
November 21st 07, 08:55 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

> we get *MUCHO* trolls in these groups - some are simple "how to
> cook a cat" crap, but some very convoluted and involved.)

Totally understandable. I've seen some plenty crazy stuff in the
short time I've been here.

Although I never understand how most of it originates in a different
group and then finds its way here.

>> AND PLEASE IGNORE my other post (I just replied to your reply
>> about being busy at work)! It isn't even worth talking about
>> anymore.
>
> I understand, I was being snarky and deserved it anyway. OK
> everyone, Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya... ;>

Everyone deserves an off day!

*sways to the gentle rhythm of the campfire gospel*

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Phil P.
November 22nd 07, 01:46 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
> > "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
> > that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
> > children
>
> Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
> authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434


If that's all there is, I think you grossly exaggerated the severity of the
situation. The few bites and scratches in the photo are *minor*.

Phil P.
November 22nd 07, 01:46 AM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
> >
> >> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
> >> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
> >> children
> >
> > Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
> >
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
> > authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
>
> Good lord!!! That really does look nasty -


You've got to be kidding! Those *are* "a few bites and scratches" - and
*minor* ones at that!


>
> And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were right, I
> was ****ed off at what Phil said

Looks like I was right.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 22nd 07, 01:52 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>> >
>> >> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
>> >> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
>> >> children
>> >
>> > Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
>> >
>> > http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
>> > authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
>>
>> Good lord!!! That really does look nasty -
>
>
> You've got to be kidding! Those *are* "a few bites and scratches" - and
> *minor* ones at that!
>
>
>>
>> And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were right,
>> I
>> was ****ed off at what Phil said
>
> Looks like I was right.
>
>

Yeah, Phil - you were right, you're always right aren't you?

Hugs,

CatNipped

Phil P.
November 22nd 07, 02:06 AM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
> >> >
> >> >> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
> >> >> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
> >> >> children
> >> >
> >> > Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
> >> >
> >> > http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
> >> > authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
> >>
> >> Good lord!!! That really does look nasty -
> >
> >
> > You've got to be kidding! Those *are* "a few bites and scratches" - and
> > *minor* ones at that!
> >
> >
> >>
> >> And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were
right,
> >> I
> >> was ****ed off at what Phil said
> >
> > Looks like I was right.
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, Phil - you were right, you're always right aren't you?
>

Usually. Do those scratches look like "chunks" to you???

If so, this might interest you:

http://www.edarley.com/catalog.cfm?dest=dir&linkid=362&linkon=category

CatNipped[_2_]
November 22nd 07, 05:07 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> >
>> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
>> >> >> that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
>> >> >> children
>> >> >
>> >> > Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
>> >> >
>> >> > http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
>> >> > authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
>> >>
>> >> Good lord!!! That really does look nasty -
>> >
>> >
>> > You've got to be kidding! Those *are* "a few bites and scratches" - and
>> > *minor* ones at that!
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were
> right,
>> >> I
>> >> was ****ed off at what Phil said
>> >
>> > Looks like I was right.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Yeah, Phil - you were right, you're always right aren't you?
>>
>
> Usually. Do those scratches look like "chunks" to you???
>
> If so, this might interest you:
>
> http://www.edarley.com/catalog.cfm?dest=dir&linkid=362&linkon=category

How witty you are as well!

Hugs,

CatNipped

Phil P.
November 22nd 07, 05:37 AM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message

> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
> >> >> > authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
> >> >>
> >> >> Good lord!!! That really does look nasty -
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > You've got to be kidding! Those *are* "a few bites and scratches" -
and
> >> > *minor* ones at that!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> And, BTW, I really am sorry - I do sincerely apologize. You were
> > right,
> >> >> I
> >> >> was ****ed off at what Phil said
> >> >
> >> > Looks like I was right.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yeah, Phil - you were right, you're always right aren't you?
> >>
> >
> > Usually. Do those scratches look like "chunks" to you???
> >
> > If so, this might interest you:
> >
> > http://www.edarley.com/catalog.cfm?dest=dir&linkid=362&linkon=category
>
> How witty you are as well!
>

Come on, Lori; seriously, do those scratches look anything like she
described? If the injuries were *half* as bad as she described they would
have required medical attention. I don't know where she's from, but in my
state, doctors and hospitals are required by law to report all animal bites
to the Board of Health- who would've quarantined the cat for at least 10
days. That's why I knew the injuries weren't nearly as bad as she
described- certainly not bad enough to warrant killing the cat.

Btw, shelters are only required to give "stray/lost" animals 3-5-7-10 days .
Animals surrendered by their owners can be killed immediately. There's no
waiting period.

Phil

-Lost
November 22nd 07, 03:00 PM
Response to "Phil P." >:

> "-Lost" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>>
>> > "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
>> > that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
>> > children
>>
>> Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
>>
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
>> authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
>
> If that's all there is, I think you grossly exaggerated the
> severity of the situation. The few bites and scratches in the
> photo are *minor*.

That was a photograph taken after we had cleaned up her entire arm
and washed it. It is also only one of the pictures, there is another
CHUNK taken out of the palm of her hand that you cannot see.

And I didn't grossly exaggerate a damned thing. The kitty took
CHUNKS out of her hand, and side of her wrist and left light to deep
grooves cut into her forearm. I said nothing more and nothing less.

What do you consider those bits of flesh that are dangling from the
side of her hand where his tooth was? I would call it a chunk.

It was a serious thing for a child and if you don't understand that
then I guess its a good thing you claim to know about cats and not
children.

I'm not going to allow you to turn this into whatever you're going
for. So I appreciate the help and advice you've given, you'll excuse
me if I don't give a damn about the rest.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 22nd 07, 03:59 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Come on, Lori; seriously, do those scratches look anything like she
> described? If the injuries were *half* as bad as she described they would
> have required medical attention.

No, Phil, I don't - they are nasty scratches and bites and could get
infected without proper care, but having had a real biter for 17 years, I've
seen (and felt) much, much worse. My children have suffered much worse when
they did something one of my cats didn't like.

But that's not the point - it doesn't matter what you or I think about it,
or what you or I would do about it. We're not *there*, we can't control the
situation, we can only work *here* with "-Lost". If *she* thinks they're
bad enough to warrant surrendering Gabby, there's nothing we can do about
it. And, going back to what I said earlier, maternal instinct may seem
funny to some when it is over-reactive to a minor situation, but it's *real*
and it's on a level that doesn't involve rational thought (when a dog just
*threatened* one of my children I kicked him - HARD, and if I'd had a gun in
my hand at the time I would have shot him). And the younger the child is
the stronger that instinct in. I don't know her older daughter's age, but
"-Lost" also has a two-year-old daughter who was walking by when Gabby
jumped on her face, scratching her cheek.

Right now "-Lost" is feeling a bit out of control because all the things
we've been telling her over the last couple of months don't seem to be
working 100% and Gabby is still attacking (we really *have* been telling her
the same things you did - you've taught us well sensei! ;>). As a mother I
can tell you some of the things that are going on in "-Lost's" head right
now (and note that I don't necessarily think they're logical, reasonable,
rational or even possible - just that they're there). She's thinking, what
if that claw had gone in my baby's eye instead of her cheek, she could have
lost her eye. What's going to happen when Gabby gets bigger and stronger
and can bite my baby's throat or tear pieces out of her face. *Those* are
the kinds of thoughts that, if we don't help her get Gabby under control,
will send Gabby to his death no matter what *WE* think of the situation.
And even though the scratches and bites may seem minor, they still *hurt*,
and seeing your 2-year-old crying in pain is almost unbearable. And she's
thinking, if it's this bad now, what's going to happen when he's larger and
stronger.

> I don't know where she's from, but in my
> state, doctors and hospitals are required by law to report all animal
> bites
> to the Board of Health- who would've quarantined the cat for at least 10
> days. That's why I knew the injuries weren't nearly as bad as she
> described- certainly not bad enough to warrant killing the cat.

Again, you and I don't think so, but you and I have *NO* say in the matter
is she decides to do just that. We can sit here and write nasty things to
and about her, but not knowing where she lives (as you stated above), we
can't even go over there and plead with her to let us take Gabby instead.
*That's* why I sometimes swallow my pride here and say something I might not
really believe in for myself or for my own situation (I'm trying to put
myself in the other's shoes and walk around for a bit). *That's* why I
don't care about always being right (though, as you can see in this thread,
to my disgrace, I don't always let it pass when I'm stung a bit). If saying
I'm wrong can save a cat's life, I'll be wrong till the cows come home. If
saying I know how they feel, lending a sympathetic "ear", and letting them
vent will help a cat then *that's* what I'll do. I try to understand how a
non-cat-person feels about things and how to get them to do the right things
for long enough for a cat to work his magic and "turn" another sucker into a
cat slave! ;>

>
> Btw, shelters are only required to give "stray/lost" animals 3-5-7-10 days
> .
> Animals surrendered by their owners can be killed immediately. There's no
> waiting period.

You're right, I forgot about that. What do you guys do if the "owner" says
it's a cat he found wandering into his yard? Is the relinquisher believed
or is the cat immediately killed? But let's hope that is doesn't come to
that.

Anyway, it comes down to this. I'd like to help "-Lost" change Gabby's
behavior if at all possible. If we can't walk her though doing that and
"-Lost" gives up on him, my next concern is finding a home for Gabby so he
won't be taken to the pound. Because if "-Lost" *thinks* her children are
in harm's way, that maternal instinct that you find funny is going to be the
cause of Gabby's death.

Phil, I really do respect you and I don't know *anyone* - including my vet -
who has such a comprehensive knowledge of cats (I can't tell you how many
times I've surprised him with things I heard from you). I respect the
rescue work you do - keeping a feral colony alive and saving the lives of
hundreds of stray or abandoned cat who would have died horrible deaths. I
know how much, how *DEEPLY* you care about cats. I know that's why you get
so damned frustrated with stupid, careless "owners" that you want to beat
the crap out of them when they do something that puts a cat in harm's way.
And when you're there at the scene, if there is any way physically possible,
you will make sure every cat in your vicinity is safe and cared for.

But, pardon me and please don't take this as the first shot in a flame war,
but because of all that you are not always the most diplomatic person to
deal with on this newsgroup. Here, in some cases, your anger and
frustration *can't* help a cat, and if the person you are directing that
anger towards takes offense and leaves then you have lost any chance of
helping his/her cat.

I don't know a tenth of what you do about cats (and less than that when it
comes to their medical issues), but I think I do know people and how to work
with them and guide them to the desired outcome for both themselves and
their cat.

"-Lost" - I'm sorry for "talking behind your back" so to speak, and I hope
you didn't take offense at anything I wrote - I admit some statements may
have been exaggerated a bit to make a point. I was mainly using your
situation as an illustration of something that happens in this group all the
time. I've been on these groups from the time in (1996, 1997? anyone
remember?) when this was just one newsgroup, rec.pets.cats. People wanted
different things from it and argued incessantly so the group split into
rec.pets.cats.health-+behav and rec.pets.cats.anecdotes and
rec.pets.cat.community and rec.pets.cats.rescue and rec.pets.cats.announce
and rec.pets.cats.misc - that way we could go to a certain group for what we
needed without wading through hundreds of thousands of posts about things we
didn't care about (the "community" group was especially annoying because of
the "cat talk" - "baby talk" that was almost incomprehensible to most (I've
always declared that is cats could type they would me *much* more articulate
then we)). Anyway, we've seen thousands of posts about problems just like
yours just as we've seen thousands of posts with "help, my cat's leg is
dangling by a thread, what should I do?" The cumulative effect for us
who've been her for so long is to get jaded, frustrated, cynical and angry
on a deep, deep level (our love for cats, and the harm and injustice done to
them can tear your heart out after a while). That's why some "old-timers"
will snap at people, write nasty things, or just ignore some posts. I know
it's not the fault of the sincere, concerned "newbie" cat owner, so I try
not to (and often fail, as you have seen in this thread).

Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and please
let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off to have my first
cup of coffee (can you believe I was this articulate without it??!).

Hugs,

CatNipped

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> Phil
>
>

-Lost
November 22nd 07, 06:38 PM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

<snip>

I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever else I
missed. ; )

I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).

> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and
> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
> articulate without it??!).

I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
turkey's plight, belly's delight.

Have a happy holiday both of ya'.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 22nd 07, 07:21 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
> <snip>
>
> I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
> entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever else I
> missed. ; )

Said with love from one irrational n00b to another! ;> Seriously, I've
done some incredibly stupid things in my life and, at 56, I've found that I
do less of them not so much from lack of passion or wealth of knowledge as
from being too tired to waste the energy to screw up!

>
> I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
> still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).

That's the *only* thing that counts - all else is just time and patience.

>
>> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and
>> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
>> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
>> articulate without it??!).
>
> I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
> turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>
> Have a happy holiday both of ya'.

Happy turkey day (at least here in the US) back atcha!

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

Meghan Noecker
November 23rd 07, 08:27 AM
On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:59:58 -0800 (PST), James
> wrote:


>What percentage of intact cats get cancer? In female rabbits studies
>over 80% develope some cancer of the reproductive system. In human
>studies virgin nuns have higher incident of cancer. Having babies
>reduces chance of cancer.


That doesn't actually disprove the theory of altering.

How many of those nuns received hysterectomies at a young age?

You mentioned rabbits and nuns having a high rate of cancer. Both
intact, correct?

You need to compare the rate of cancer in intact people, rabbits,
cats, etc vs altered examples of the same species.

Even within cats, they have found that cats altered before the first
heat have a lower rate of cancer than those altered later. And much
better than those never altered.

The real issue is the continuous cycle for no purpose. In other words,
cats being bred tend to have a lower rate of cancer than those left
intact but never being bred. But we don't want to produce a lot of
unwanted kittens, so we opt to later them, which gives the lowest rate
of health problems as an added bonus.

Meghan Noecker
November 23rd 07, 08:57 AM
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:59:52 -0600, "CatNipped"
> wrote:

>"Phil P." > wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>> Come on, Lori; seriously, do those scratches look anything like she
>> described? If the injuries were *half* as bad as she described they would
>> have required medical attention.
>
>No, Phil, I don't - they are nasty scratches and bites and could get
>infected without proper care, but having had a real biter for 17 years, I've
>seen (and felt) much, much worse.

Are there more than 2 photos?

I saw one a while back with a child's face. And the one I see now is
an arm held up with lots of welts and a couple minor scratches. I
don't see anything resembling a bite.

Are we discussing that photo or is there another photo with real
bites?

I'm sorry, but the photo I see looks like 10 minutes of rough housing
with a typical cat. I can produce that with any of my cats.

I've had much worse injuries by accident.

When Maynard was a kitten, I picked up way too fast, and he tried to
grab at me to hold on. He slashed my ear pretty badly. I almost passed
out when I saw the separation. It healed nicely and the scar is barely
visible.

Maynard fell off my lap and caught a claw in my pinky finger, causing
his whole weight to be hanging off my finger.

Maynard wanted to wake me up, so I hid under the covers. He fished for
me with his paw and caught his claw in my lip (I never hid again).

Maynard was sitting in front of the alarm clock when it went off. I
knocked him off the desk by accident, and he scratched me on the way
down.

Maynard was sitting on my lap while I was on the toilet. He put his
front feet up on the toilet paper roll, slipped, and left traction
marks down my thigh.


You can see the pattern. Maynard caused some damage over the years.
But you know what, he was the sweetest cat, never agressive at all.
This is just part of having a cat, even a sweet one.

More recently, I have been knocked down teh stairs by an idiotic cat
who ran into me while I was trying to walk down the stairs. She threw
me off balance. I twisted my back, and even my foot, which was in a
shoe, hurt for awhile. She continued on like nothing happened.

Meghan Noecker
November 23rd 07, 09:10 AM
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:15:16 -0600, "-Lost"
> wrote:

>Response to Meghan Noecker >:
>

>
>> I think he must have gone into their territory, because he
>> disappeared when he was about 4 years old. We never found him.
>
>(1) I think I'm confused. He backed down raccoons WITHOUT his doo-
>dads? Or this was before he lost 'em, or... ?
>


We waited too long to get him neutered. He was one of the rare ones
that does not improve. It is only about 4% that do not improve, and
usually only when they are neutered really late. He did not stop
spraying, and he was very territorial, not just of space, but of
people. He would attack any cat, dog, or turtle that walked near my
mom.


>
>> I think his life would have been a lot different if we had just
>> neutered him. Unfortunately, at that time, my mom was a backyard
>> breeder and wanted to keep him intact. (She did quit after his
>> first litter.)
>
>What is a backyard breeder? I'm guessing someone who is not an
>official breeder? Or something like that?

Backyard breeders do not do the health testing that should be done.
Theywill typically breed any pair of cats, dogs, etc that look like
the breed they want. So, in my mom's case, she had a Siamese and she
responded to an ad for a Siamese male for stud. She did have papers on
her own cat or care about papers on the male cat. Papers don't make a
cat good enough to breed, but they do show the pedigree of that
animal, and the idea is to know the health, conformation, and
temperment of those who came before.

As a backyard breeder, she knew nothing of the history of cats
involved. No idea the temperment of the male. No idea of his health.
And no tests were done on either. Just because a cat looks healthy,
doesn't mean they don't have a heart condition or other problem. Many
problems don't show up in the first year. When breeding dogs, hips
cannot be certified until they are at least 2 years old.

There are also genetic tests for some common problems in various
breeds. For example, they have found the main cause of heart problems
in Maine Coons. Ethical breeders had their cats tested for the gene
and stopped breeding any cat with a double copy of that gene.
unfortunately, the gene is so common, they would narrow the gene pool
to much if they only breed negative cats. So, the goal right now is to
make sure that those cats with one copy of the gene are only bred to
negative cats. Then, the number of cats with the gene will go down,
and eventually, they can breed it out completely. But in the meantime,
they won't produce any cats with a double set. I know of several
breeders who altered all their cats and had to start over. They took
the financial loss and did the right thing. Backyard breeders don't
even bother with the tests. They save the money, and just breed to
sell.



>
>I want him to be so much better than what he is but I hate that I
>have to mutilate him to do it.


It's actually a very mild procedure, and most males are back to normal
the same day, as if nothing happened. None of mine ever had any
problems. Even my female removed her own stitches the next day and was
fine.

Sheelagh>\o\
November 23rd 07, 06:51 PM
On 22 Nov, 15:59, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]
>
> > Come on, Lori; seriously, do those scratches look anything like she
> > described? If the injuries were *half* as bad as she described they would
> > have required medical attention.
>
> No, Phil, I don't - they are nasty scratches and bites and could get
> infected without proper care, but having had a real biter for 17 years, I've
> seen (and felt) much, much worse. My children have suffered much worse when
> they did something one of my cats didn't like.
>
> But that's not the point - it doesn't matter what you or I think about it,
> or what you or I would do about it. We're not *there*, we can't control the
> situation, we can only work *here* with "-Lost". If *she* thinks they're
> bad enough to warrant surrendering Gabby, there's nothing we can do about
> it. And, going back to what I said earlier, maternal instinct may seem
> funny to some when it is over-reactive to a minor situation, but it's *real*
> and it's on a level that doesn't involve rational thought (when a dog just
> *threatened* one of my children I kicked him - HARD, and if I'd had a gun in
> my hand at the time I would have shot him). And the younger the child is
> the stronger that instinct in. I don't know her older daughter's age, but
> "-Lost" also has a two-year-old daughter who was walking by when Gabby
> jumped on her face, scratching her cheek.
>
> Right now "-Lost" is feeling a bit out of control because all the things
> we've been telling her over the last couple of months don't seem to be
> working 100% and Gabby is still attacking (we really *have* been telling her
> the same things you did - you've taught us well sensei! ;>). As a mother I
> can tell you some of the things that are going on in "-Lost's" head right
> now (and note that I don't necessarily think they're logical, reasonable,
> rational or even possible - just that they're there). She's thinking, what
> if that claw had gone in my baby's eye instead of her cheek, she could have
> lost her eye. What's going to happen when Gabby gets bigger and stronger
> and can bite my baby's throat or tear pieces out of her face. *Those* are
> the kinds of thoughts that, if we don't help her get Gabby under control,
> will send Gabby to his death no matter what *WE* think of the situation.
> And even though the scratches and bites may seem minor, they still *hurt*,
> and seeing your 2-year-old crying in pain is almost unbearable. And she's
> thinking, if it's this bad now, what's going to happen when he's larger and
> stronger.
>
> > I don't know where she's from, but in my
> > state, doctors and hospitals are required by law to report all animal
> > bites
> > to the Board of Health- who would've quarantined the cat for at least 10
> > days. That's why I knew the injuries weren't nearly as bad as she
> > described- certainly not bad enough to warrant killing the cat.
>
> Again, you and I don't think so, but you and I have *NO* say in the matter
> is she decides to do just that. We can sit here and write nasty things to
> and about her, but not knowing where she lives (as you stated above), we
> can't even go over there and plead with her to let us take Gabby instead.
> *That's* why I sometimes swallow my pride here and say something I might not
> really believe in for myself or for my own situation (I'm trying to put
> myself in the other's shoes and walk around for a bit). *That's* why I
> don't care about always being right (though, as you can see in this thread,
> to my disgrace, I don't always let it pass when I'm stung a bit). If saying
> I'm wrong can save a cat's life, I'll be wrong till the cows come home. If
> saying I know how they feel, lending a sympathetic "ear", and letting them
> vent will help a cat then *that's* what I'll do. I try to understand how a
> non-cat-person feels about things and how to get them to do the right things
> for long enough for a cat to work his magic and "turn" another sucker into a
> cat slave! ;>
>
>
>
> > Btw, shelters are only required to give "stray/lost" animals 3-5-7-10 days
> > .
> > Animals surrendered by their owners can be killed immediately. There's no
> > waiting period.
>
> You're right, I forgot about that. What do you guys do if the "owner" says
> it's a cat he found wandering into his yard? Is the relinquisher believed
> or is the cat immediately killed? But let's hope that is doesn't come to
> that.
>
> Anyway, it comes down to this. I'd like to help "-Lost" change Gabby's
> behavior if at all possible. If we can't walk her though doing that and
> "-Lost" gives up on him, my next concern is finding a home for Gabby so he
> won't be taken to the pound. Because if "-Lost" *thinks* her children are
> in harm's way, that maternal instinct that you find funny is going to be the
> cause of Gabby's death.
>
> Phil, I really do respect you and I don't know *anyone* - including my vet -
> who has such a comprehensive knowledge of cats (I can't tell you how many
> times I've surprised him with things I heard from you). I respect the
> rescue work you do - keeping a feral colony alive and saving the lives of
> hundreds of stray or abandoned cat who would have died horrible deaths. I
> know how much, how *DEEPLY* you care about cats. I know that's why you get
> so damned frustrated with stupid, careless "owners" that you want to beat
> the crap out of them when they do something that puts a cat in harm's way.
> And when you're there at the scene, if there is any way physically possible,
> you will make sure every cat in your vicinity is safe and cared for.
>
> But, pardon me and please don't take this as the first shot in a flame war,
> but because of all that you are not always the most diplomatic person to
> deal with on this newsgroup. Here, in some cases, your anger and
> frustration *can't* help a cat, and if the person you are directing that
> anger towards takes offense and leaves then you have lost any chance of
> helping his/her cat.
>
> I don't know a tenth of what you do about cats (and less than that when it
> comes to their medical issues), but I think I do know people and how to work
> with them and guide them to the desired outcome for both themselves and
> their cat.
>
> "-Lost" - I'm sorry for "talking behind your back" so to speak, and I hope
> you didn't take offense at anything I wrote - I admit some statements may
> have been exaggerated a bit to make a point. I was mainly using your
> situation as an illustration of something that happens in this group all the
> time. I've been on these groups from the time in (1996, 1997? anyone
> remember?) when this was just one newsgroup, rec.pets.cats. People wanted
> different things from it and argued incessantly so the group split into
> rec.pets.cats.health-+behav and rec.pets.cats.anecdotes and
> rec.pets.cat.community and rec.pets.cats.rescue and rec.pets.cats.announce
> and rec.pets.cats.misc - that way we could go to a certain group for what we
> needed without wading through hundreds of thousands of posts about things we
> didn't care about (the "community" group was especially annoying because of
> the "cat talk" - "baby talk" that was almost incomprehensible to most (I've
> always declared that is cats could type they would me *much* more articulate
> then we)). Anyway, we've seen thousands of posts about problems just like
> yours just as we've seen thousands of posts with "help, my cat's leg is
> dangling by a thread, what should I do?" The cumulative effect for us
> who've been her for so long is to get jaded, frustrated, cynical and angry
> on a deep, deep level (our love for cats, and the harm and injustice done to
> them can tear your heart out after a while). That's why some "old-timers"
> will snap at people, write nasty things, or just ignore some posts. I know
> it's not the fault of the sincere, concerned "newbie" cat owner, so I try
> not to (and often fail, as you have seen in this thread).
>
> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and please
> let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off to have my first
> cup of coffee (can you believe I was this articulate without it??!).
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
>
>
>
>
> > Phil- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There are not many people in this group that would be prepared to say
they made an error of judgment, whether about the cat in question or
the poster involved. Personally, I think what you had to say made
perfect sense, & also helps Noob's to understand why they are being
flamed. Not everyone has been here as long as you have & your
explanation went a long way to explaining to others, why you / we get
some of us get so annoyed & we jump down some people's throat's for
what appears to be no reason at all.

I say I take my hat off to you for having the rare ability to admit
that you were either wrong, or you felt you had jumped to a
conclusion. We are all guilty of that occasionally, but admitting to
it takes a real woman. Well done for that post, & thank you for that
explanation too. It all makes perfect sense..
Sheelagh >"o"<

Sheelagh>\o\
November 24th 07, 03:17 PM
On 22 Nov, 19:21, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
> > entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever else I
> > missed. ; )
>
> Said with love from one irrational n00b to another! ;> Seriously, I've
> done some incredibly stupid things in my life and, at 56, I've found that I
> do less of them not so much from lack of passion or wealth of knowledge as
> from being too tired to waste the energy to screw up!
>
>
>
> > I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
> > still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).
>
> That's the *only* thing that counts - all else is just time and patience.
>
>
>
> >> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and
> >> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
> >> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
> >> articulate without it??!).
>
> > I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>
> > Have a happy holiday both of ya'.
>
> Happy turkey day (at least here in the US) back atcha!
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
>
>
>
>
> > --
> > -Lost
> > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> > kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.

LOL,, over in the UK right now, we would be lucky to get turkey, even
for Christmas. We have had avian flu over here again (H15?!!)
In fact I would go so far as to say, I don't think most people would
want one right now because of the scare. We actually never have one.
We use chickens, or should I say a couple of chickens, because they
don't happen to be infected as far as we know right now. Either way, I
wish you all a happy holiday, on your side of the pond...
Sheelagh >"o"<

CatNipped[_2_]
November 24th 07, 03:30 PM
"Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Nov, 19:21, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>>
>> > <snip>
>>
>> > I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
>> > entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever else I
>> > missed. ; )
>>
>> Said with love from one irrational n00b to another! ;> Seriously, I've
>> done some incredibly stupid things in my life and, at 56, I've found that
>> I
>> do less of them not so much from lack of passion or wealth of knowledge
>> as
>> from being too tired to waste the energy to screw up!
>>
>>
>>
>> > I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
>> > still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).
>>
>> That's the *only* thing that counts - all else is just time and patience.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and
>> >> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
>> >> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
>> >> articulate without it??!).
>>
>> > I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
>> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>>
>> > Have a happy holiday both of ya'.
>>
>> Happy turkey day (at least here in the US) back atcha!
>>
>> Hugs,
>>
>> CatNipped
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > --
>> > -Lost
>> > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
>> > kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>
> LOL,, over in the UK right now, we would be lucky to get turkey, even
> for Christmas. We have had avian flu over here again (H15?!!)
> In fact I would go so far as to say, I don't think most people would
> want one right now because of the scare. We actually never have one.
> We use chickens, or should I say a couple of chickens, because they
> don't happen to be infected as far as we know right now. Either way, I
> wish you all a happy holiday, on your side of the pond...
> Sheelagh >"o"<

Hadn't heard that! How many cases have there been? Were all the cases
involving only turkeys or has any person there come down with it?

Hugs,

CatNipped

Sheelagh>\o\
November 24th 07, 04:20 PM
On 24 Nov, 15:30, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> "Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 22 Nov, 19:21, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> >> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
> >> > <snip>
>
> >> > I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
> >> > entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever else I
> >> > missed. ; )
>
> >> Said with love from one irrational n00b to another! ;> Seriously, I've
> >> done some incredibly stupid things in my life and, at 56, I've found that
> >> I
> >> do less of them not so much from lack of passion or wealth of knowledge
> >> as
> >> from being too tired to waste the energy to screw up!
>
> >> > I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
> >> > still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).
>
> >> That's the *only* thing that counts - all else is just time and patience.
>
> >> >> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and
> >> >> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
> >> >> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
> >> >> articulate without it??!).
>
> >> > I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>
> >> > Have a happy holiday both of ya'.
>
> >> Happy turkey day (at least here in the US) back atcha!
>
> >> Hugs,
>
> >> CatNipped
>
> >> > --
> >> > -Lost
> >> > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> >> > kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>
> > LOL,, over in the UK right now, we would be lucky to get turkey, even
> > for Christmas. We have had avian flu over here again (H15?!!)
> > In fact I would go so far as to say, I don't think most people would
> > want one right now because of the scare. We actually never have one.
> > We use chickens, or should I say a couple of chickens, because they
> > don't happen to be infected as far as we know right now. Either way, I
> > wish you all a happy holiday, on your side of the pond...
> > Sheelagh >"o"<
>
> Hadn't heard that! How many cases have there been? Were all the cases
> involving only turkeys or has any person there come down with it?
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

In my area. East of England, a place called Norfolk.

We have a brand of Turkeys over here called Bernard Matthews who went
down with it a few months ago,& now another farm has been found to
have HN15. there is was a total ban on bird movement for a ten mile
radius around it, but I heard today that they have destroyed all of
the birds on that farm & the farm next door too. We are expecting a
shortage of turkeys this Christmas.

Racing pigeons have been given leave to start racing again, & the ten
mile ban has just been lifted, but I have no doubts at all that
another one will pop up again soon. Every time we get a ban lifted,
within weeks, there is either another outbreak of HN15, or Pigs with
blue tongue disease, foot & mouth or another new variety of horrible
diseases. We don't seem to have had very much good luck @ all in the
last 12 months with wild fowl, turkey farms, & other meat source's
(cows & pigs mainly)
Plenty of juicy chickens though, so @ least the chicken farmers will
do well over Christmas. I think we tend to forget what effect it has
on the farmers themselves.
Sheelagh >"o"<

PS: Would anyone mind explaining what Thanksgiving is please?
I realise it has something to do with the name obiously. Is it like a
thanks giving after the annual harvest that we have over here?

CatNipped[_2_]
November 24th 07, 05:17 PM
"Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
...
> On 24 Nov, 15:30, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>> "Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 22 Nov, 19:21, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>> >> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>>
>> >> > <snip>
>>
>> >> > I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
>> >> > entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever else
>> >> > I
>> >> > missed. ; )
>>
>> >> Said with love from one irrational n00b to another! ;> Seriously,
>> >> I've
>> >> done some incredibly stupid things in my life and, at 56, I've found
>> >> that
>> >> I
>> >> do less of them not so much from lack of passion or wealth of
>> >> knowledge
>> >> as
>> >> from being too tired to waste the energy to screw up!
>>
>> >> > I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
>> >> > still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).
>>
>> >> That's the *only* thing that counts - all else is just time and
>> >> patience.
>>
>> >> >> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and
>> >> >> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
>> >> >> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
>> >> >> articulate without it??!).
>>
>> >> > I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
>> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>>
>> >> > Have a happy holiday both of ya'.
>>
>> >> Happy turkey day (at least here in the US) back atcha!
>>
>> >> Hugs,
>>
>> >> CatNipped
>>
>> >> > --
>> >> > -Lost
>> >> > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
>> >> > kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>>
>> > LOL,, over in the UK right now, we would be lucky to get turkey, even
>> > for Christmas. We have had avian flu over here again (H15?!!)
>> > In fact I would go so far as to say, I don't think most people would
>> > want one right now because of the scare. We actually never have one.
>> > We use chickens, or should I say a couple of chickens, because they
>> > don't happen to be infected as far as we know right now. Either way, I
>> > wish you all a happy holiday, on your side of the pond...
>> > Sheelagh >"o"<
>>
>> Hadn't heard that! How many cases have there been? Were all the cases
>> involving only turkeys or has any person there come down with it?
>>
>> Hugs,
>>
>> CatNipped- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> In my area. East of England, a place called Norfolk.
>
> We have a brand of Turkeys over here called Bernard Matthews who went
> down with it a few months ago,& now another farm has been found to
> have HN15. there is was a total ban on bird movement for a ten mile
> radius around it, but I heard today that they have destroyed all of
> the birds on that farm & the farm next door too. We are expecting a
> shortage of turkeys this Christmas.
>
> Racing pigeons have been given leave to start racing again, & the ten
> mile ban has just been lifted, but I have no doubts at all that
> another one will pop up again soon. Every time we get a ban lifted,
> within weeks, there is either another outbreak of HN15, or Pigs with
> blue tongue disease, foot & mouth or another new variety of horrible
> diseases. We don't seem to have had very much good luck @ all in the
> last 12 months with wild fowl, turkey farms, & other meat source's
> (cows & pigs mainly)
> Plenty of juicy chickens though, so @ least the chicken farmers will
> do well over Christmas. I think we tend to forget what effect it has
> on the farmers themselves.

I thought goose was the traditional holiday bird in the UK, not turkey. But
I'm sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with HN15 breakouts - we
don't hear much about that in the US.

> Sheelagh >"o"<
>
> PS: Would anyone mind explaining what Thanksgiving is please?
> I realise it has something to do with the name obiously. Is it like a
> thanks giving after the annual harvest that we have over here?

It's celebrating the landing of the Pilgrims to the US at Plymouth Rock -
giving thanks for a safe crossing and successful colonizing. Actually,
there is a bit of a "PC" stink over here just now. Some schools are saying
it's insensitive for us to celebrate Thanksgiving because native Americans
see that as us giving thanks for having stolen their land, brought disease
to their people, and pretty much decimated their heritage.

Hugs,

CatNipped

Sheelagh>\o\
November 24th 07, 05:34 PM
On 24 Nov, 17:17, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> "Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 24 Nov, 15:30, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> >> "Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > On 22 Nov, 19:21, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> >> >> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>
> >> ...
>
> >> >> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
> >> >> > <snip>
>
> >> >> > I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
> >> >> > entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever else
> >> >> > I
> >> >> > missed. ; )
>
> >> >> Said with love from one irrational n00b to another! ;> Seriously,
> >> >> I've
> >> >> done some incredibly stupid things in my life and, at 56, I've found
> >> >> that
> >> >> I
> >> >> do less of them not so much from lack of passion or wealth of
> >> >> knowledge
> >> >> as
> >> >> from being too tired to waste the energy to screw up!
>
> >> >> > I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
> >> >> > still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).
>
> >> >> That's the *only* thing that counts - all else is just time and
> >> >> patience.
>
> >> >> >> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and
> >> >> >> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
> >> >> >> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
> >> >> >> articulate without it??!).
>
> >> >> > I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
> >> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>
> >> >> > Have a happy holiday both of ya'.
>
> >> >> Happy turkey day (at least here in the US) back atcha!
>
> >> >> Hugs,
>
> >> >> CatNipped
>
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > -Lost
> >> >> > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> >> >> > kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>
> >> > LOL,, over in the UK right now, we would be lucky to get turkey, even
> >> > for Christmas. We have had avian flu over here again (H15?!!)
> >> > In fact I would go so far as to say, I don't think most people would
> >> > want one right now because of the scare. We actually never have one.
> >> > We use chickens, or should I say a couple of chickens, because they
> >> > don't happen to be infected as far as we know right now. Either way, I
> >> > wish you all a happy holiday, on your side of the pond...
> >> > Sheelagh >"o"<
>
> >> Hadn't heard that! How many cases have there been? Were all the cases
> >> involving only turkeys or has any person there come down with it?
>
> >> Hugs,
>
> >> CatNipped- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > In my area. East of England, a place called Norfolk.
>
> > We have a brand of Turkeys over here called Bernard Matthews who went
> > down with it a few months ago,& now another farm has been found to
> > have HN15. there is was a total ban on bird movement for a ten mile
> > radius around it, but I heard today that they have destroyed all of
> > the birds on that farm & the farm next door too. We are expecting a
> > shortage of turkeys this Christmas.
>
> > Racing pigeons have been given leave to start racing again, & the ten
> > mile ban has just been lifted, but I have no doubts at all that
> > another one will pop up again soon. Every time we get a ban lifted,
> > within weeks, there is either another outbreak of HN15, or Pigs with
> > blue tongue disease, foot & mouth or another new variety of horrible
> > diseases. We don't seem to have had very much good luck @ all in the
> > last 12 months with wild fowl, turkey farms, & other meat source's
> > (cows & pigs mainly)
> > Plenty of juicy chickens though, so @ least the chicken farmers will
> > do well over Christmas. I think we tend to forget what effect it has
> > on the farmers themselves.
>
> I thought goose was the traditional holiday bird in the UK, not turkey. But
> I'm sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with HN15 breakouts - we
> don't hear much about that in the US.
>
> > Sheelagh >"o"<
>
> > PS: Would anyone mind explaining what Thanksgiving is please?
> > I realise it has something to do with the name obiously. Is it like a
> > thanks giving after the annual harvest that we have over here?
>
> It's celebrating the landing of the Pilgrims to the US at Plymouth Rock -
> giving thanks for a safe crossing and successful colonizing. Actually,
> there is a bit of a "PC" stink over here just now. Some schools are saying
> it's insensitive for us to celebrate Thanksgiving because native Americans
> see that as us giving thanks for having stolen their land, brought disease
> to their people, and pretty much decimated their heritage.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


> I thought goose was the traditional holiday bird in the UK, not turkey. But
> I'm sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with HN15 breakouts - we
> don't hear much about that in the US.


It might have been in our parents generation, but these days with all
the Obesity warnings & better health care, we don't really use them
any more because Goose is a very fatty meat, so most people choose
Turkey, but personally, I find it quite a dry meat, so we choose to
eat chicken. I don't suppose there is a great deal of difference
between them, other than the weight of them!!

> It's celebrating the landing of the Pilgrims to the US at Plymouth Rock -
> giving thanks for a safe crossing and successful colonizing. Actually,
> there is a bit of a "PC" stink over here just now. Some schools are saying
> it's insensitive for us to celebrate Thanksgiving because native Americans
> see that as us giving thanks for having stolen their land, brought disease
> to their people, and pretty much decimated their heritage

Yet another controversial subject I see!
It's difficult because I can see both points of view, I'm just glad
I'm not in the middle of that one, & thanks for the explanation too
BTW.
Sheelagh >"o"<

CatNipped[_2_]
November 24th 07, 07:47 PM
--

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/


"Matthew" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 24 Nov, 15:30, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>>>> "Sheelagh>"o"<" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 22 Nov, 19:21, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>>>> >> "-Lost" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> >> > Response to "CatNipped" >:
>>>>
>>>> >> > <snip>
>>>>
>>>> >> > I'm not offended in the least. I actually sat here nodding the
>>>> >> > entire time, even when called an irrational n00b, and whatever
>>>> >> > else I
>>>> >> > missed. ; )
>>>>
>>>> >> Said with love from one irrational n00b to another! ;> Seriously,
>>>> >> I've
>>>> >> done some incredibly stupid things in my life and, at 56, I've found
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> I
>>>> >> do less of them not so much from lack of passion or wealth of
>>>> >> knowledge
>>>> >> as
>>>> >> from being too tired to waste the energy to screw up!
>>>>
>>>> >> > I may not know much but I count myself still in the ring since I'm
>>>> >> > still swinging (willing to learn and adapt).
>>>>
>>>> >> That's the *only* thing that counts - all else is just time and
>>>> >> patience.
>>>>
>>>> >> >> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace"
>>>> >> >> (and
>>>> >> >> please let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off
>>>> >> >> to have my first cup of coffee (can you believe I was this
>>>> >> >> articulate without it??!).
>>>>
>>>> >> > I agree. Phil and CatNipped, I wish you the best on this day of
>>>> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>>>>
>>>> >> > Have a happy holiday both of ya'.
>>>>
>>>> >> Happy turkey day (at least here in the US) back atcha!
>>>>
>>>> >> Hugs,
>>>>
>>>> >> CatNipped
>>>>
>>>> >> > --
>>>> >> > -Lost
>>>> >> > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
>>>> >> > kidding. No I am not.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> >> > turkey's plight, belly's delight.
>>>>
>>>> > LOL,, over in the UK right now, we would be lucky to get turkey, even
>>>> > for Christmas. We have had avian flu over here again (H15?!!)
>>>> > In fact I would go so far as to say, I don't think most people would
>>>> > want one right now because of the scare. We actually never have one.
>>>> > We use chickens, or should I say a couple of chickens, because they
>>>> > don't happen to be infected as far as we know right now. Either way,
>>>> > I
>>>> > wish you all a happy holiday, on your side of the pond...
>>>> > Sheelagh >"o"<
>>>>
>>>> Hadn't heard that! How many cases have there been? Were all the cases
>>>> involving only turkeys or has any person there come down with it?
>>>>
>>>> Hugs,
>>>>
>>>> CatNipped- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> In my area. East of England, a place called Norfolk.
>>>
>>> We have a brand of Turkeys over here called Bernard Matthews who went
>>> down with it a few months ago,& now another farm has been found to
>>> have HN15. there is was a total ban on bird movement for a ten mile
>>> radius around it, but I heard today that they have destroyed all of
>>> the birds on that farm & the farm next door too. We are expecting a
>>> shortage of turkeys this Christmas.
>>>
>>> Racing pigeons have been given leave to start racing again, & the ten
>>> mile ban has just been lifted, but I have no doubts at all that
>>> another one will pop up again soon. Every time we get a ban lifted,
>>> within weeks, there is either another outbreak of HN15, or Pigs with
>>> blue tongue disease, foot & mouth or another new variety of horrible
>>> diseases. We don't seem to have had very much good luck @ all in the
>>> last 12 months with wild fowl, turkey farms, & other meat source's
>>> (cows & pigs mainly)
>>> Plenty of juicy chickens though, so @ least the chicken farmers will
>>> do well over Christmas. I think we tend to forget what effect it has
>>> on the farmers themselves.
>>
>> I thought goose was the traditional holiday bird in the UK, not turkey.
>> But I'm sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with HN15
>> breakouts - we don't hear much about that in the US.
>>
>>> Sheelagh >"o"<
>>>
>>> PS: Would anyone mind explaining what Thanksgiving is please?
>>> I realise it has something to do with the name obiously. Is it like a
>>> thanks giving after the annual harvest that we have over here?
>>
>> It's celebrating the landing of the Pilgrims to the US at Plymouth Rock -
>> giving thanks for a safe crossing and successful colonizing. Actually,
>> there is a bit of a "PC" stink over here just now. Some schools are
>> saying it's insensitive for us to celebrate Thanksgiving because native
>> Americans see that as us giving thanks for having stolen their land,
>> brought disease to their people, and pretty much decimated their
>> heritage.
>>
>> Hugs,
>>
>> CatNipped
>
> You having native American heritage I far from believe that and was never
> taught any of that. I know of none that think that and my ancestors were
> involved in the trail of tears. But you do get the young ones that have
> a hair up their [email protected]@ and preach till someone listens.
>
> Political Correctness SUCKS BIG TIME. I like to find the person that
> started the first trend of it and drag that person behind my truck for a
> little while. PC has just gotten plain stupid. I heard down under that
> they don't want their Santa Claus's to say HO HO HO anymore they want them
> to say HA HA HA instead since HO is offensive to woman. The Santa's are
> in a uproar over it.
>
> I got griped at before and was served by a law firm that their clients Did
> not like that I had Merry Christmas signs on my stores. They threatened
> legal action. I had my lawyer deliver a message to them HO HO HO MERRY
> CHRISTMAS SEE YOU IN COURT on Christmas paper with a big Santa on it.
>
> I went to the wholesale dealer and bought more decorations and bigger
> signs. I even went as far as getting a Santa and His reindeer sled set;
> when you pressed the button it said Merry Christmas and did Christmas
> songs.
>
> It was a local woman's group that did not like it. Bunch of old wind
> bags that had nothing better to do but find something to gripe about.
>
> The judge threw out the lawsuit as being frivolous and civil court awarded
> lawyer fees and cost to us.

I don't have any native American heritage, I was referring to an article I
read...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58718

I can't say I don't have any sympathy or regret for what happened to the
Native Americans, but my ancestors came to America in the late 1800's as
Irish immigrants during the potato famine - and neither were they treated
very well by WASPs. So while I feel regret, I don't take any personal
responsibility for what happened.

Hugs,

CatNipped

IBen Getiner
November 25th 07, 05:43 AM
On Nov 16, 4:10�am, "-Lost" > wrote:
> Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. �All the
> information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> neuter your cat.
>
> The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> marking their territory.
>
> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> neutering?
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. �Don't e-mail me. �I am
> kidding. �No I am not.

Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
Yes... Being a male. That's what the radical feminists around here
will tell you. DO NOT neuter your cat. It is cruel and unnatural and
totally unnecessary. It is a barbarity visited on a helpless creature.
Creatures who depend on you the owner to do everything in your power
to safeguard their little interests.. And that's something in today's
climate of animal rights awareness that should be plain to see by all
concerned. In fact, I'm very surprised that the very same people who
champion animal rights will turn right around and do this to a
helpless cat. And all for THEIR convenience. Not for anything to do
with the animal. Typical liberal hypocrites in each and every way. And
the last people in the world that I would like to see controlling
public opinion when it comes to this barbaric practice of sexual
mutilation done in the name of 'love'..


IBen Getiner

CatNipped[_2_]
November 25th 07, 04:00 PM
See, "-Lost", this is an example of what I mean. People who have been
around a while know that "I been gettin' her" is a pro-Nazi (literally, ask
him about his politics) troll, and those who use them have killfiled him a
looooong time ago.

Of course, you can always read his posts, then do just the opposite of what
he says and 9 times out of 10 you won't go wrong.

--

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Sheelagh>\o\
November 25th 07, 04:45 PM
On 25 Nov, 05:43, IBen Getiner > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 4:10�am, "-Lost" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> > I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. �All the
> > information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> > not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> > neuter your cat.
>
> > The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> > testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> > marking their territory.
>
> > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> > neutering?
>
> > --
> > -Lost
> > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. �Don't e-mail me. �I am
> > kidding. �No I am not.
>
> Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
> Yes... Being a male. That's what the radical feminists around here
> will tell you. DO NOT neuter your cat. It is cruel and unnatural and
> totally unnecessary. It is a barbarity visited on a helpless creature.
> Creatures who depend on you the owner to do everything in your power
> to safeguard their little interests.. And that's something in today's
> climate of animal rights awareness that should be plain to see by all
> concerned. In fact, I'm very surprised that the very same people who
> champion animal rights will turn right around and do this to a
> helpless cat. And all for THEIR convenience. Not for anything to do
> with the animal. Typical liberal hypocrites in each and every way. And
> the last people in the world that I would like to see controlling
> public opinion when it comes to this barbaric practice of sexual
> mutilation done in the name of 'love'..
>
> IBen Getiner- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

All this coming from the man who would kick & shoot a stray cat in the
street if you saw one?
Because lets face it, you have claimed that you would because it is
fair prey?
Your theory doesn't follow logic. Are you saying that you would prefer
that all cats cross mate with their mothers & brothers? I ask this
because this is exactly what would happen if you didn't neuter or spay
them. How can that be a good thing for someone of your high values, or
the cat's for that matter?
I think not Iben. I believe it is in the cat's best interest, not
mine. I thought you believed that inbreeding is a bad thing? I know
that we certainly do.

In light of this, I don't think your theory holds any values for me,
or the cat concerned for that matter.

From one of the Liberal Hypocrites


Sheelagh >"o"<

Phil P.
November 25th 07, 09:50 PM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
> > Come on, Lori; seriously, do those scratches look anything like she
> > described? If the injuries were *half* as bad as she described they
would
> > have required medical attention.
>
> No, Phil, I don't - they are nasty scratches and bites and could get
> infected without proper care, but having had a real biter for 17 years,
I've
> seen (and felt) much, much worse. My children have suffered much worse
when
> they did something one of my cats didn't like.
>
> But that's not the point - it doesn't matter what you or I think about it,
> or what you or I would do about it. We're not *there*, we can't control
the
> situation, we can only work *here* with "-Lost". If *she* thinks they're
> bad enough to warrant surrendering Gabby, there's nothing we can do about
> it.


Lets just hope her conscience will prevent her from killing a cat for a
problem she's responsible for.




And, going back to what I said earlier, maternal instinct may seem
> funny to some when it is over-reactive to a minor situation, but it's
*real*
> and it's on a level that doesn't involve rational thought

Do you mean like over-protective and paranoid? ;-)




(when a dog just
> *threatened* one of my children I kicked him - HARD, and if I'd had a gun
in
> my hand at the time I would have shot him). And the younger the child is
> the stronger that instinct in. I don't know her older daughter's age, but
> "-Lost" also has a two-year-old daughter who was walking by when Gabby
> jumped on her face, scratching her cheek.

The cat was probably anticipating an attack. That's what happens when you
play rough with a cat.


>
> Right now "-Lost" is feeling a bit out of control because all the things
> we've been telling her over the last couple of months don't seem to be
> working 100% and Gabby is still attacking (we really *have* been telling
her
> the same things you did - you've taught us well sensei! ;>). As a mother
I
> can tell you some of the things that are going on in "-Lost's" head right
> now (and note that I don't necessarily think they're logical, reasonable,
> rational or even possible - just that they're there).


I'm sorry to cut you short, but I really don't have time for philosophical
discussions right now. Personally, I think she's just looking for
absolution- or your previous suspicion was right.

Phil


She's thinking, what
> if that claw had gone in my baby's eye instead of her cheek, she could
have
> lost her eye. What's going to happen when Gabby gets bigger and stronger
> and can bite my baby's throat or tear pieces out of her face. *Those* are
> the kinds of thoughts that, if we don't help her get Gabby under control,
> will send Gabby to his death no matter what *WE* think of the situation.
> And even though the scratches and bites may seem minor, they still *hurt*,
> and seeing your 2-year-old crying in pain is almost unbearable. And she's
> thinking, if it's this bad now, what's going to happen when he's larger
and
> stronger.
>
> > I don't know where she's from, but in my
> > state, doctors and hospitals are required by law to report all animal
> > bites
> > to the Board of Health- who would've quarantined the cat for at least 10
> > days. That's why I knew the injuries weren't nearly as bad as she
> > described- certainly not bad enough to warrant killing the cat.
>
> Again, you and I don't think so, but you and I have *NO* say in the matter
> is she decides to do just that. We can sit here and write nasty things to
> and about her, but not knowing where she lives (as you stated above), we
> can't even go over there and plead with her to let us take Gabby instead.
> *That's* why I sometimes swallow my pride here and say something I might
not
> really believe in for myself or for my own situation (I'm trying to put
> myself in the other's shoes and walk around for a bit). *That's* why I
> don't care about always being right (though, as you can see in this
thread,
> to my disgrace, I don't always let it pass when I'm stung a bit). If
saying
> I'm wrong can save a cat's life, I'll be wrong till the cows come home.
If
> saying I know how they feel, lending a sympathetic "ear", and letting them
> vent will help a cat then *that's* what I'll do. I try to understand how
a
> non-cat-person feels about things and how to get them to do the right
things
> for long enough for a cat to work his magic and "turn" another sucker into
a
> cat slave! ;>
>
> >
> > Btw, shelters are only required to give "stray/lost" animals 3-5-7-10
days
> > .
> > Animals surrendered by their owners can be killed immediately. There's
no
> > waiting period.
>
> You're right, I forgot about that. What do you guys do if the "owner"
says
> it's a cat he found wandering into his yard? Is the relinquisher believed
> or is the cat immediately killed? But let's hope that is doesn't come to
> that.
>
> Anyway, it comes down to this. I'd like to help "-Lost" change Gabby's
> behavior if at all possible. If we can't walk her though doing that and
> "-Lost" gives up on him, my next concern is finding a home for Gabby so he
> won't be taken to the pound. Because if "-Lost" *thinks* her children are
> in harm's way, that maternal instinct that you find funny is going to be
the
> cause of Gabby's death.
>
> Phil, I really do respect you and I don't know *anyone* - including my
vet -
> who has such a comprehensive knowledge of cats (I can't tell you how many
> times I've surprised him with things I heard from you). I respect the
> rescue work you do - keeping a feral colony alive and saving the lives of
> hundreds of stray or abandoned cat who would have died horrible deaths. I
> know how much, how *DEEPLY* you care about cats. I know that's why you
get
> so damned frustrated with stupid, careless "owners" that you want to beat
> the crap out of them when they do something that puts a cat in harm's way.
> And when you're there at the scene, if there is any way physically
possible,
> you will make sure every cat in your vicinity is safe and cared for.
>
> But, pardon me and please don't take this as the first shot in a flame
war,
> but because of all that you are not always the most diplomatic person to
> deal with on this newsgroup. Here, in some cases, your anger and
> frustration *can't* help a cat, and if the person you are directing that
> anger towards takes offense and leaves then you have lost any chance of
> helping his/her cat.
>
> I don't know a tenth of what you do about cats (and less than that when it
> comes to their medical issues), but I think I do know people and how to
work
> with them and guide them to the desired outcome for both themselves and
> their cat.
>
> "-Lost" - I'm sorry for "talking behind your back" so to speak, and I hope
> you didn't take offense at anything I wrote - I admit some statements may
> have been exaggerated a bit to make a point. I was mainly using your
> situation as an illustration of something that happens in this group all
the
> time. I've been on these groups from the time in (1996, 1997? anyone
> remember?) when this was just one newsgroup, rec.pets.cats. People wanted
> different things from it and argued incessantly so the group split into
> rec.pets.cats.health-+behav and rec.pets.cats.anecdotes and
> rec.pets.cat.community and rec.pets.cats.rescue and rec.pets.cats.announce
> and rec.pets.cats.misc - that way we could go to a certain group for what
we
> needed without wading through hundreds of thousands of posts about things
we
> didn't care about (the "community" group was especially annoying because
of
> the "cat talk" - "baby talk" that was almost incomprehensible to most
(I've
> always declared that is cats could type they would me *much* more
articulate
> then we)). Anyway, we've seen thousands of posts about problems just like
> yours just as we've seen thousands of posts with "help, my cat's leg is
> dangling by a thread, what should I do?" The cumulative effect for us
> who've been her for so long is to get jaded, frustrated, cynical and angry
> on a deep, deep level (our love for cats, and the harm and injustice done
to
> them can tear your heart out after a while). That's why some "old-timers"
> will snap at people, write nasty things, or just ignore some posts. I
know
> it's not the fault of the sincere, concerned "newbie" cat owner, so I try
> not to (and often fail, as you have seen in this thread).
>
> Well, now that I've written the equivalent of "War and Peace" (and please
> let's all have peace on this day of thanksgiving), I'm off to have my
first
> cup of coffee (can you believe I was this articulate without it??!).
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
>
>

Phil P.
November 25th 07, 09:50 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "Phil P." >:
>
> > "-Lost" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Response to "CatNipped" >:
> >>
> >> > "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said
> >> > that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her
> >> > children
> >>
> >> Just a quick update since I'm being called a liar.
> >>
> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gabby/RandomActsOfViolence/photo?
> >> authkey=WlObgHRhcew#5135349745256926434
> >
> > If that's all there is, I think you grossly exaggerated the
> > severity of the situation. The few bites and scratches in the
> > photo are *minor*.
>
> That was a photograph taken after we had cleaned up her entire arm
> and washed it.

Blood is like spilt milk-- it always looks like there's more than there
really is and makes the wound seem a lot worse that it actually is.

It is also only one of the pictures, there is another
> CHUNK taken out of the palm of her hand that you cannot see.


Why would you post pictures of the minor wounds instead of the more serious
ones after making such an issue of the serious wounds? Just curious.


> And I didn't grossly exaggerate a damned thing. The kitty took
> CHUNKS out of her hand, and side of her wrist and left light to deep
> grooves cut into her forearm. I said nothing more and nothing less.


I'd sure like to see what you mean by "chunks". Could you post the pictures?


>
> What do you consider those bits of flesh that are dangling from the
> side of her hand where his tooth was? I would call it a chunk.


All those serious injuries must have required a lot of medical attention and
probably several stitches to close the wounds where the cat took "chunks"
out of her hand and wrist... I must have missed your posts about all the
medical attention. Sorry. I don't have time to read every post. I hope
your insurance covered all the medical bills.


>
> It was a serious thing for a child and if you don't understand that


Hopefully, it will teach the child to respect the cat- even though you
didn't. Hard lessons are remembered best.


> then I guess its a good thing you claim to know about cats and not
> children.

At least I know enough about kids to teach them how to treat animals.


>
> I'm not going to allow you to turn this into whatever you're going
> for.

I'm not trying to turn this into anything. I just don't like seeing a cat
unjustly labeled- and possibly killed because of the owner's mistakes.



So I appreciate the help and advice you've given, you'll excuse
> me if I don't give a damn about the rest.

That's why your cat has a problem.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 26th 07, 02:28 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

>> But that's not the point - it doesn't matter what you or I think about
>> it,
>> or what you or I would do about it. We're not *there*, we can't control
> the
>> situation, we can only work *here* with "-Lost". If *she* thinks they're
>> bad enough to warrant surrendering Gabby, there's nothing we can do about
>> it.
>
> Lets just hope her conscience will prevent her from killing a cat for a
> problem she's responsible for.

We can only wait and see and hope she can get Gabby under control.

> And, going back to what I said earlier, maternal instinct may seem
>> funny to some when it is over-reactive to a minor situation, but it's
> *real*
>> and it's on a level that doesn't involve rational thought
>
> Do you mean like over-protective and paranoid? ;-)

All *right* Phil - as long as you're talking about her and not me! <ducking
and running> OK, even me... I have to admit, I was the one who brought
Archer to the vet after he got his cast off because his toes and claws were
black and I thought it might be gangrene from the cast being too tight. The
vet "cured" him right away by taking his fingernail and scraping off the
dirty tape residue! :-O

> (when a dog just
>> *threatened* one of my children I kicked him - HARD, and if I'd had a gun
> in
>> my hand at the time I would have shot him). And the younger the child is
>> the stronger that instinct in. I don't know her older daughter's age,
>> but
>> "-Lost" also has a two-year-old daughter who was walking by when Gabby
>> jumped on her face, scratching her cheek.
>
> The cat was probably anticipating an attack. That's what happens when you
> play rough with a cat.

That, or he was just "stalking" - not unusual in a kitten, everyone has seen
the "America's Funniest Videos" montage where there's a few instances of
kittens jumping on babies' heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40bZ7-I3Z20

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G2AHmbwzTU&feature=related

>> Right now "-Lost" is feeling a bit out of control because all the things
>> we've been telling her over the last couple of months don't seem to be
>> working 100% and Gabby is still attacking (we really *have* been telling
> her
>> the same things you did - you've taught us well sensei! ;>). As a mother
> I
>> can tell you some of the things that are going on in "-Lost's" head right
>> now (and note that I don't necessarily think they're logical, reasonable,
>> rational or even possible - just that they're there).
>
>
> I'm sorry to cut you short, but I really don't have time for philosophical
> discussions right now. Personally, I think she's just looking for
> absolution- or your previous suspicion was right.
>
> Phil

I'm hoping it's neither, but just newbie mistakes that can be corrected.
It's not too late to train him away from his aggression.

I do realize how busy you are - BTW, how is the colony doing now as the
weather gets colder? Have you set up some kind of shelters for them?
You're in the New York area, aren't you - how do you keep water bowls from
freezing? It seems almost every season has its own particular trials
(Spring - kitten season, Summer - parasites, Winter - freezing
temperatures).

Hugs,

CatNipped

IBen Getiner
November 27th 07, 05:52 AM
On Nov 25, 11:00�am, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> See, "-Lost", this is an example of what I mean. �People who have been
> around a while know that "I been gettin' her" is a pro-Nazi (literally, ask
> him about his politics) troll, and those who use them have killfiled him a
> looooong time ago.
>
> Of course, you can always read his posts, then do just the opposite of what
> he says and 9 times out of 10 you won't go wrong.
>
> --
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
> See all my masters at: �http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

See, Lost...? Typical red-herring type KRAP because they don't want to
defend their flimsy stance on the issue. But it does not deter my
point. Why are these people who SAY they love cats SO ****ing into
things like neutering and spaying, when you KNOW it hurts the animal?


Think about that. I leave it for you to decide who's the real human
being around here.



IBen Getiner



IBen Getiner

IBen Getiner
November 27th 07, 05:53 AM
On Nov 25, 1:13�pm, "Matthew" > wrote:
> "IBen Getiner" >
>
> <snipped for being utter BS>
>
> So speaks the racist Nazi homophobe.


See, Love...? Typical red-herring type KRAP because they don't want to
defend their stance on the issue. But it does not deter my point. Why
are these people who SAY they love cats SO ****ing into things like
neutering and spaying, when you KNOW it hurts the animal?


Think about that. I leave it for you to decide who's the real human
being around here.

IBen Getiner
November 27th 07, 06:06 AM
On Nov 25, 11:45 am, "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" >
wrote:
> On 25 Nov, 05:43, IBen Getiner > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 4:10�am, "-Lost" > wrote:
>
> > > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> > > I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. �All the
> > > information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> > > not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> > > neuter your cat.
>
> > > The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> > > testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> > > marking their territory.
>
> > > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> > > neutering?
>
> > > --
> > > -Lost
> > > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. �Don't e-mail me. �I am
> > > kidding. �No I am not.
>
> > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
> > Yes... Being a male. That's what the radical feminists around here
> > will tell you. DO NOT neuter your cat. It is cruel and unnatural and
> > totally unnecessary. It is a barbarity visited on a helpless creature.
> > Creatures who depend on you the owner to do everything in your power
> > to safeguard their little interests.. And that's something in today's
> > climate of animal rights awareness that should be plain to see by all
> > concerned. In fact, I'm very surprised that the very same people who
> > champion animal rights will turn right around and do this to a
> > helpless cat. And all for THEIR convenience. Not for anything to do
> > with the animal. Typical liberal hypocrites in each and every way. And
> > the last people in the world that I would like to see controlling
> > public opinion when it comes to this barbaric practice of sexual
> > mutilation done in the name of 'love'..
>
> > IBen Getiner- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> All this coming from the man who would kick & shoot a stray cat in the
> street if you saw one?
> Because lets face it, you have claimed that you would because it is
> fair prey?
>

Only if it was Ringo.... ;)

How is crippled old Ringo these days...? Did he ever grow back that
eye?



> Your theory doesn't follow logic. Are you saying that you would prefer
> that all cats cross mate with their mothers & brothers?
>
> I ask this
> because this is exactly what would happen if you didn't neuter or spay
> them. How can that be a good thing for someone of your high values, or
> the cat's for that matter?
>

No! You get rid of one or the other and have only like sexes as pets.
That's the only responsible thing to do. Why are you always AGAINST
taking personal responsibility? Is this your mind set when you had
those 11 kids out of wedlock?



> I think not Iben. I believe it is in the cat's best interest, not
> mine. I thought you believed that inbreeding is a bad thing? I know
> that we certainly do.
>

Face it.... The only reason you people do this barbarity is so the
helpless animals will not keep you up at nite when they're in heat, or
so you won't be 'offended' by the faint aroma of their spray. It's all
about *you*! You know that it's true! Why not just get rid of the cats
if you really don't want them?


> In light of this, I don't think your theory holds any values for me,
> or the cat concerned for that matter.
>

Not that it would ever take hold in people who enjoy power and
control....

> From one of the Liberal Hypocrites
>
> Sheelagh >"o"<- Hide quoted text -
>

You don't have to tell anyone that! Your scent gives YOU away every
time. And it stinks far worse than any tom cat I ever left them
hangin' on....

Neutering and spaying is painful and unnatural. Bottom line.



IBen Getiner

Phil P.
November 27th 07, 07:59 PM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
> All *right* Phil - as long as you're talking about her and not me!
<ducking
> and running> OK, even me... I have to admit, I was the one who brought
> Archer to the vet after he got his cast off because his toes and claws
were
> black and I thought it might be gangrene from the cast being too tight.
The
> vet "cured" him right away by taking his fingernail and scraping off the
> dirty tape residue! :-O

Don't feel too bad-- The night I got these three kittens I was trying
to
scrub the black marks off with Dawn and a toothbrush because I thought
thet
were grease or dye. I finally realized they were natural coloring
after I
looked at a few hairs under a microscope....

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelsey-0106.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0021.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0022.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0023.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-leg-001.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket-evileye.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket_0182.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Feral/CCC_Turbo.jpg




>
> > (when a dog just
> >> *threatened* one of my children I kicked him - HARD, and if I'd had a
gun
> > in
> >> my hand at the time I would have shot him). And the younger the child
is
> >> the stronger that instinct in. I don't know her older daughter's age,
> >> but
> >> "-Lost" also has a two-year-old daughter who was walking by when Gabby
> >> jumped on her face, scratching her cheek.
> >
> > The cat was probably anticipating an attack. That's what happens when
you
> > play rough with a cat.
>
> That, or he was just "stalking" - not unusual in a kitten, everyone has
seen
> the "America's Funniest Videos" montage where there's a few instances of
> kittens jumping on babies' heads.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40bZ7-I3Z20
>
> or
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G2AHmbwzTU&feature=related
>
> >> Right now "-Lost" is feeling a bit out of control because all the
things
> >> we've been telling her over the last couple of months don't seem to be
> >> working 100% and Gabby is still attacking (we really *have* been
telling
> > her
> >> the same things you did - you've taught us well sensei! ;>). As a
mother
> > I
> >> can tell you some of the things that are going on in "-Lost's" head
right
> >> now (and note that I don't necessarily think they're logical,
reasonable,
> >> rational or even possible - just that they're there).
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry to cut you short, but I really don't have time for
philosophical
> > discussions right now. Personally, I think she's just looking for
> > absolution- or your previous suspicion was right.
> >
> > Phil
>
> I'm hoping it's neither, but just newbie mistakes that can be corrected.
> It's not too late to train him away from his aggression.

*Defensive* play aggression. The wounds in the photo were sustained
from a
cat defending himself..


>
> I do realize how busy you are - BTW, how is the colony doing now as the
> weather gets colder?

Colony? I have almost 30 colonies- about 400 cats (that I know of).

>Have you set up some kind of shelters for them?


They have insulated shelters but most of the cats know every warm spot
within a mile radius of the feeding stations.


> You're in the New York area, aren't you - how do you keep water bowls from
> freezing?

Simple. I just put a few ounces of antifreeze in the water bowls- it
does
the trick. ;-/ Actually, I use flat bottom Pyrex glass baking dishes
on
top of bricks painted flat black. During the day-as long as there's
sun-,
the bricks get up 40-50* in 20* weather. Aluminum cookie pans painted
flat
black work well, too. I've been playing around with an idea for small
clear
poly carbonate "greenhouse" feeders that will keep food and water warm
all
day- as long as there's sun.


It seems almost every season has its own particular trials
> (Spring - kitten season, Summer - parasites, Winter - freezing
> temperatures).

This kitten season was a nightmare- a 3-litter season. We're still
finding
kittens. We trapped and neutered over 2,000 cats this year so far-
about
1,500 were female-- which would have produced over 4,000 *litters*
~16,000
kittens- next year. The anti TNR morons never think about how many
cats
there *would be* without TNR programs- they only know how to bitch and
moan
about the cats they can see.

I gotta run.. I'm have to get ready to break some more no-feeding laws
tonight...

Phil

Phil P.
November 27th 07, 08:06 PM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
> All *right* Phil - as long as you're talking about her and not me!
<ducking
> and running> OK, even me... I have to admit, I was the one who brought
> Archer to the vet after he got his cast off because his toes and claws
were
> black and I thought it might be gangrene from the cast being too tight.
The
> vet "cured" him right away by taking his fingernail and scraping off the
> dirty tape residue! :-O

Don't feel too bad-- The night I got these three kittens I was trying to
scrub the black marks off with Dawn and a toothbrush because I thought thet
were grease or dye. I finally realized they were natural coloring after I
looked at a few hairs under a microscope....

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelsey-0106.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0021.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0022.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0023.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-leg-001.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket-evileye.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket_0182.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Feral/CCC_Turbo.jpg




>
> > (when a dog just
> >> *threatened* one of my children I kicked him - HARD, and if I'd had a
gun
> > in
> >> my hand at the time I would have shot him). And the younger the child
is
> >> the stronger that instinct in. I don't know her older daughter's age,
> >> but
> >> "-Lost" also has a two-year-old daughter who was walking by when Gabby
> >> jumped on her face, scratching her cheek.
> >
> > The cat was probably anticipating an attack. That's what happens when
you
> > play rough with a cat.
>
> That, or he was just "stalking" - not unusual in a kitten, everyone has
seen
> the "America's Funniest Videos" montage where there's a few instances of
> kittens jumping on babies' heads.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40bZ7-I3Z20
>
> or
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G2AHmbwzTU&feature=related
>
> >> Right now "-Lost" is feeling a bit out of control because all the
things
> >> we've been telling her over the last couple of months don't seem to be
> >> working 100% and Gabby is still attacking (we really *have* been
telling
> > her
> >> the same things you did - you've taught us well sensei! ;>). As a
mother
> > I
> >> can tell you some of the things that are going on in "-Lost's" head
right
> >> now (and note that I don't necessarily think they're logical,
reasonable,
> >> rational or even possible - just that they're there).
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry to cut you short, but I really don't have time for
philosophical
> > discussions right now. Personally, I think she's just looking for
> > absolution- or your previous suspicion was right.
> >
> > Phil
>
> I'm hoping it's neither, but just newbie mistakes that can be corrected.
> It's not too late to train him away from his aggression.

*Defensive* play agrgession. The wounds in the photo were sustained from a
cat defending himself..


>
> I do realize how busy you are - BTW, how is the colony doing now as the
> weather gets colder?

Colony? I have almost 30 colonies- about 400 cats (that I know of).

>Have you set up some kind of shelters for them?


They have insulated shelters but most of the cats know every warm spot
within a mile radius of the feeding stations.


> You're in the New York area, aren't you - how do you keep water bowls from
> freezing?

Simple. I just put a few ounces of antifreeze in the water bowls- it does
the trick. ;-/ Actually, I use flat bottom Pyrex glass baking dishes on
top of bricks painted flat black. During the day-as long as there's sun-,
the bricks get up 40-50* in 20* weather. Aluminum cookie pans painted flat
black wook well, too. I've been playing around with an idea for small clear
polycarbonate "greenhouse" feeders that will keep food and water warm all
day- as long as there's sun.


It seems almost every season has its own particular trials
> (Spring - kitten season, Summer - parasites, Winter - freezing
> temperatures).

This kitten season was a nightmare- a 3-litter season. We're still finding
kittens. We trapped and neutered over 2,000 cats this year so far- about
1,500 were female-- which would have produced over 4,000 *litters* ~16,000
kittens- next year. The anti TNR morons never think about how many cats
there *would be* without TNR programs- they only know how to bitch and moan
about the cats they can see.

I gotta run.. I'm have to get ready to break some more no-feeding laws
tonight...

Phil

-Lost
November 27th 07, 09:12 PM
Response to "Phil P." >:

>> It's not too late to train him away from his aggression.
>
> *Defensive* play agrgession. The wounds in the photo were
> sustained from a cat defending himself..

You're full of ****e.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 27th 07, 10:11 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>> All *right* Phil - as long as you're talking about her and not me!
> <ducking
>> and running> OK, even me... I have to admit, I was the one who brought
>> Archer to the vet after he got his cast off because his toes and claws
> were
>> black and I thought it might be gangrene from the cast being too tight.
> The
>> vet "cured" him right away by taking his fingernail and scraping off the
>> dirty tape residue! :-O
>
> Don't feel too bad-- The night I got these three kittens I was trying
> to
> scrub the black marks off with Dawn and a toothbrush because I thought
> thet
> were grease or dye. I finally realized they were natural coloring
> after I
> looked at a few hairs under a microscope....
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelsey-0106.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0021.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0022.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0023.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-leg-001.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket-evileye.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket_0182.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Feral/CCC_Turbo.jpg
>

WOW! I thought Ozzy was just weird - he's orinj-stripey all over except for
one black whisher, one black eyebrow-whisker and a small patch of black on
one foot. I tried scrubbing it off too until I realized it wasn't
dirt/grease! LOL!

>
> *Defensive* play aggression. The wounds in the photo were sustained
> from a
> cat defending himself..

It did kind of look like a hand that's been on a cat's belly - the placement
of the scratches and bites are consistent with that (I know from having the
same on my hand when I've palpated for lumps or swollen mammaries).

>
>>
>> I do realize how busy you are - BTW, how is the colony doing now as the
>> weather gets colder?
>
> Colony? I have almost 30 colonies- about 400 cats (that I know of).

Ohmygawd, I'm behind the times - I thought it was only one large one. What
kind of area do you cover - must be miles wide!?!

>
>>Have you set up some kind of shelters for them?
>
>
> They have insulated shelters but most of the cats know every warm spot
> within a mile radius of the feeding stations.

Yeah, I'm sure they'd have to in order to survive to breed - and gawd knows
there's no shortage of stray cats!

>
>
>> You're in the New York area, aren't you - how do you keep water bowls
>> from
>> freezing?
>
> Simple. I just put a few ounces of antifreeze in the water bowls- it
> does
> the trick. ;-/

You had me going there for about half a second - I gasped in half a breath
before letting it out in a "HA"!

> Actually, I use flat bottom Pyrex glass baking dishes
> on
> top of bricks painted flat black. During the day-as long as there's
> sun-,
> the bricks get up 40-50* in 20* weather. Aluminum cookie pans painted
> flat
> black work well, too. I've been playing around with an idea for small
> clear
> poly carbonate "greenhouse" feeders that will keep food and water warm
> all
> day- as long as there's sun.

Interesting. I was wondering if a drop or two of Vodka would keep the water
from freezing without harming the cats (although I've heard alcohol isn't
good to drink in the cold, for humans anyway - even though it will feel warm
going down it will end up accelerating frost bite). Would that diluted an
amount do any good or any harm (remember, I live in Houston were we get all
of 0.00000000000000000000001% of snowfall per decade)?

>
>
> It seems almost every season has its own particular trials
>> (Spring - kitten season, Summer - parasites, Winter - freezing
>> temperatures).
>
> This kitten season was a nightmare- a 3-litter season. We're still
> finding
> kittens. We trapped and neutered over 2,000 cats this year so far-
> about
> 1,500 were female-- which would have produced over 4,000 *litters*
> ~16,000
> kittens- next year. The anti TNR morons never think about how many
> cats
> there *would be* without TNR programs- they only know how to bitch and
> moan
> about the cats they can see.

Yep, they can't "get" the concept that as soon as one cat vacates a
"territory", another will take his place. Nature, unfortunately, abhors a
vacuum! Have you been following the bru-ha-ha at the port authority?

>
> I gotta run.. I'm have to get ready to break some more no-feeding laws
> tonight...

LOL! I'd bail you out of jail any time!

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> Phil

The Hidden Cat Lover
November 27th 07, 11:59 PM
On Nov 27, 12:52*am, IBen Getiner > wrote:
> On Nov 25, 11:00�am, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>
> > See, "-Lost", this is an example of what I mean. �People who have been
> > around a while know that "I been gettin' her" is a pro-Nazi (literally, ask
> > him about his politics) troll, and those who use them have killfiled him a
> > looooong time ago.
>
> > Of course, you can always read his posts, then do just the opposite of what
> > he says and 9 times out of 10 you won't go wrong.
>
> > --
>
> > Hugs,
>
> > CatNipped
>
> > See all my masters at: �http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/
>
> See, Lost...? Typical red-herring type KRAP because they don't want to
> defend their flimsy stance on the issue. But it does not deter my
> point. Why are these people who SAY they love cats SO ****ing into
> things like neutering and spaying, when you KNOW it hurts the animal?
>
> Think about that. I leave it for you to decide who's the real human
> being around here.
>
> IBen Getiner
>
> IBen Getiner

ROFLMAO You can claim to be human all you want. We all can.

Now claim you are a nice person that is not a repressed disgusting
pervert is another thing

-Lost
November 28th 07, 01:07 AM
Response to "CatNipped" >:

>> *Defensive* play aggression. The wounds in the photo were
>> sustained from a
>> cat defending himself..
>
> It did kind of look like a hand that's been on a cat's belly - the
> placement of the scratches and bites are consistent with that (I
> know from having the same on my hand when I've palpated for lumps
> or swollen mammaries).

Respectfully, I have to say that regardless of what you or Phil
think, my 7 year old sustained those scratches and bites while
writing in her notebook sitting on the floor.

Gabby leaped on her arm and she started to pull away and he bit into
her hand which is when her mouth dropped open and her eyes shut tight
and she half-whispered (whatever you call it when you use a lot of
air, but not whispering) "ow, ow, ow." That is when I told her to
pull him off by the scruff of his neck with the other hand (trying to
allow her to handle it if possible) and when she attempted this he
dug in deeper which was evident by her screaming out in pain.

That is when I jumped up and removed Gabby from her arm.

Now, I've dropped it and left it alone but you (whoever) want to keep
bringing it back up. I have to say it isn't doing anything to help
Gabby. Since that is what most of you claim is important.

Think about the kitty and stop rehashing this ****e.

CatNipped, I didn't mean this particularly at you -- but if you are
jumping on the "now it isn't so bad because Phil said so" bandwagon,
then sure, it applies to you too. Feel free to drop it whenever.

Otherwise, I hope you and Phil and everyone else had a good day of
thanks.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 28th 07, 02:36 AM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "CatNipped" >:
>
>>> *Defensive* play aggression. The wounds in the photo were
>>> sustained from a
>>> cat defending himself..
>>
>> It did kind of look like a hand that's been on a cat's belly - the
>> placement of the scratches and bites are consistent with that (I
>> know from having the same on my hand when I've palpated for lumps
>> or swollen mammaries).
>
> Respectfully, I have to say that regardless of what you or Phil
> think, my 7 year old sustained those scratches and bites while
> writing in her notebook sitting on the floor.
>
> Gabby leaped on her arm and she started to pull away and he bit into
> her hand which is when her mouth dropped open and her eyes shut tight
> and she half-whispered (whatever you call it when you use a lot of
> air, but not whispering) "ow, ow, ow." That is when I told her to
> pull him off by the scruff of his neck with the other hand (trying to
> allow her to handle it if possible) and when she attempted this he
> dug in deeper which was evident by her screaming out in pain.
>
> That is when I jumped up and removed Gabby from her arm.
>
> Now, I've dropped it and left it alone but you (whoever) want to keep
> bringing it back up. I have to say it isn't doing anything to help
> Gabby. Since that is what most of you claim is important.
>
> Think about the kitty and stop rehashing this ****e.
>
> CatNipped, I didn't mean this particularly at you -- but if you are
> jumping on the "now it isn't so bad because Phil said so" bandwagon,
> then sure, it applies to you too. Feel free to drop it whenever.

No, no bandwagon jumping. Even though it's not medically serious that
doesn't mean it didn't hurt like hell, or that it couldn't have been
medically serious. I *have* had injuries like that, FWIW. There is no way
to say for sure, one way or the other, by looking at the pictures, how it
happened, so I'll take your word for that since I've also seen kittens
attack children - I posted video of it. So consider it dropped.

BTW how has Gabby been behaving lately?

Hugs,

CatNipped

>
> Otherwise, I hope you and Phil and everyone else had a good day of
> thanks.
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

IBen Getiner[_2_]
November 28th 07, 07:22 AM
On Nov 27, 6:59*pm, The Hidden Cat Lover >
wrote:
> On Nov 27, 12:52*am, IBen Getiner > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 25, 11:00�am, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>
> > > See, "-Lost", this is an example of what I mean. �People who have been
> > > around a while know that "I been gettin' her" is a pro-Nazi (literally, ask
> > > him about his politics) troll, and those who use them have killfiled him a
> > > looooong time ago.
>
> > > Of course, you can always read his posts, then do just the opposite of what
> > > he says and 9 times out of 10 you won't go wrong.
>
> > > --
>
> > > Hugs,
>
> > > CatNipped
>
> > > See all my masters at: �http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/
>
> > See, Lost...? Typical red-herring type KRAP because they don't want to
> > defend their flimsy stance on the issue. But it does not deter my
> > point. Why are these people who SAY they love cats SO ****ing into
> > things like neutering and spaying, when you KNOW it hurts the animal?
>
> > Think about that. I leave it for you to decide who's the real human
> > being around here.
>
> > IBen Getiner
>
> > IBen Getiner
>
> ROFLMAO *You can claim to be human all you want. *We all can.
>
> *Now claim you are a nice person that is not a repressed disgusting
> pervert is another thing- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I personally do not care one nth of one iota what YOU or any one of
your 'friends' in here think about me. I don't care! Got that....!? I
only care about me. Mrs. Getiner and me. That's reality. I make NO
pretenses pussying up to you silly little assholes in a place like
this. I much prefer being honest (a concept that has as of yet to even
register on your mindless blighted soul). I can be honest here because
I don't need to fit into any of your deplorable little clicks! I don't
need your approval, nor would I necessarily want it if you offered it!
LOL..!! Especially not you in particular, mind you.. YOU can kiss my
white Southern ass. Repress THAT in your mind for a spell and when it
gets ripe, get back to me. I might approve of you better by then. But
no guarantees though, since piles of **** usually tend to contiune on
stinking that way..


IBen Getiner

IBen Getiner[_2_]
November 28th 07, 07:28 AM
On Nov 27, 6:59*pm, The Hidden Cat Lover >
wrote:
> On Nov 27, 12:52*am, IBen Getiner > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 25, 11:00�am, "CatNipped" > wrote:
>
> > > See, "-Lost", this is an example of what I mean. �People who have been
> > > around a while know that "I been gettin' her" is a pro-Nazi (literally, ask
> > > him about his politics) troll, and those who use them have killfiled him a
> > > looooong time ago.
>
> > > Of course, you can always read his posts, then do just the opposite of what
> > > he says and 9 times out of 10 you won't go wrong.
>
> > > --
>
> > > Hugs,
>
> > > CatNipped
>
> > > See all my masters at: �http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/
>
> > See, Lost...? Typical red-herring type KRAP because they don't want to
> > defend their flimsy stance on the issue. But it does not deter my
> > point. Why are these people who SAY they love cats SO ****ing into
> > things like neutering and spaying, when you KNOW it hurts the animal?
>
> > Think about that. I leave it for you to decide who's the real human
> > being around here.
>
> > IBen Getiner
>
> > IBen Getiner
>
> ROFLMAO *You can claim to be human all you want. *We all can.
>
> *Now claim you are a nice person that is not a repressed disgusting
> pervert is another thing- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I personally do not care one nth of one iota what YOU or any one of
your 'friends' in here think about me. I don't care! Got that....? I
only care about me. Mrs. Getiner and me. That's reality. I make NO
pretenses by pussying up to you silly little assholes in a place like
this. I much prefer being honest (a concept that has as of yet to even
register on your mindless blighted soul). I can be honest here because
I don't need to fit into your deplorable little click! I don't need
your approval, nor would I necessarily want it if you offered it!
LOL..!! Especially not you in particular, mind you.. YOU can kiss my
white Southern ass. Repress THAT in your mind for a spell and when it
gets ripe, then get back to me. I might approve of you better by then.
No guarantees though, since piles of **** usually tend to stay stanky
all the way to the curb..


IBen Getiner

IBen Getiner[_2_]
November 28th 07, 10:12 AM
On Nov 16, 4:10�am, "-Lost" > wrote:

> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> neutering?
>
> --
> -Lost


No that I think about it, you must be lost. What kind of a question is
this, anyway? Why not ask your child's pediatrician if there really is
no REAL danger in not cutting your child's tongue out? Of course
there's no danger!! The frigging cat was born with the Goddamned
things wasn't he? And they're there for a purpose, aren't they? I
mean, it's not like they're an abnormal growth! I ****ing swear... You
shallow doped-up people.. The left has you so ****ing BRAINWASHED that
you don't even DARE think for your selves. Not even for a second! And
certainly not when it's concerning Goddamned ****ing COMMON SINCE. But
go ahead and poll the other brain-dead jerks in here if that will help
you feel safe in numbers. Since that kind of reasoning is all you've
****ing got!

LOL......!!! Lost... Well, I will say this for you... At least you're
honest.


IBen

IBen Getiner[_2_]
November 28th 07, 10:13 AM
On Nov 16, 4:10�am, "-Lost" > wrote:
> Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
>
> I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. �All the
> information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do
> not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not
> neuter your cat.
>
> The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are
> testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens
> marking their territory.
>
> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not
> neutering?
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. �Don't e-mail me. �I am
> kidding. �No I am not.

Now that I think about it, you must be lost. What kind of a question
is this, anyway? Why not ask your child's pediatrician if there really
is no REAL danger in not cutting your child's tongue out? Of course
there's no danger!! The frigging cat was born with the Goddamned
things wasn't he? And they're there for a purpose, aren't they? I
mean, it's not like they're an abnormal growth! I ****ing swear... You
shallow doped-up people.. The left has you so ****ing BRAINWASHED that
you don't even DARE think for your selves. Not even for a second! And
certainly not when it's concerning Goddamned ****ing COMMON SINCE. But
go ahead and poll the other brain-dead jerks in here if that will help
you feel safe in numbers. Since that kind of reasoning is all you've
****ing got!


LOL...!!! Lost. Well, I will say this for you.. At least you're
honest.


IBen Getiner

Phil P.
November 29th 07, 05:29 PM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]
> >>
> >> All *right* Phil - as long as you're talking about her and not me!
> > <ducking
> >> and running> OK, even me... I have to admit, I was the one who brought
> >> Archer to the vet after he got his cast off because his toes and claws
> > were
> >> black and I thought it might be gangrene from the cast being too tight.
> > The
> >> vet "cured" him right away by taking his fingernail and scraping off
the
> >> dirty tape residue! :-O
> >
> > Don't feel too bad-- The night I got these three kittens I was trying
> > to
> > scrub the black marks off with Dawn and a toothbrush because I thought
> > thet
> > were grease or dye. I finally realized they were natural coloring
> > after I
> > looked at a few hairs under a microscope....
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelsey-0106.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0021.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0022.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-0023.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/chelseyspots-leg-001.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket-evileye.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Fosters/cricket_0182.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Feral/CCC_Turbo.jpg
> >
>
> WOW! I thought Ozzy was just weird - he's orinj-stripey all over except
for
> one black whisher, one black eyebrow-whisker and a small patch of black on
> one foot. I tried scrubbing it off too until I realized it wasn't
> dirt/grease! LOL!
>
> >
> > *Defensive* play aggression. The wounds in the photo were sustained
> > from a
> > cat defending himself..
>
> It did kind of look like a hand that's been on a cat's belly - the
placement
> of the scratches and bites are consistent with that (I know from having
the
> same on my hand when I've palpated for lumps or swollen mammaries).


I've been bitten and scratched enough in 45 years of "catitary service" to
know defensive wounds from aggressive wounds. Those be aggravated defensive
wounds! Besides, you can't raise a cat to play rough then expect the cat to
suddenly play nice when the cute little nips aren't cute anymore-




> >> I do realize how busy you are - BTW, how is the colony doing now as the
> >> weather gets colder?
> >
> > Colony? I have almost 30 colonies- about 400 cats (that I know of).
>
> Ohmygawd, I'm behind the times - I thought it was only one large one.
What
> kind of area do you cover - must be miles wide!?!

Now I only work a few colonies in problem anti-cat towns. One city slaps you
with a $2,000 fine for feeding stray/feral cats. Residents of the town can't
even leave food out for their own cats! They can only leave food out for 2
hours after sunrise and 2 hours after sunset-- only on their *own* property.
Ain't that some ****? Its actually an unenforceable law-- unless the feeder
is a complete moron.

One colony covers about a mile. At first I thought they were a few
individual colonies. But while we were trapping, we saw a lot cats we
already TNR'd from other locations. Its kinda like a little "kitty city"
where the cats meet their friends for dinner in restaurants in other
"neighborhoods". lol!


> >>Have you set up some kind of shelters for them?
> >
> >
> > They have insulated shelters but most of the cats know every warm spot
> > within a mile radius of the feeding stations.
>
> Yeah, I'm sure they'd have to in order to survive to breed - and gawd
knows
> there's no shortage of stray cats!

To be finding pregnant females and 3-5 week-old kittens this time of year,
the females definitely had indoor lairs with artificial light.


> >> You're in the New York area, aren't you - how do you keep water bowls
> >> from
> >> freezing?
> >
> > Simple. I just put a few ounces of antifreeze in the water bowls- it
> > does
> > the trick. ;-/
>
> You had me going there for about half a second - I gasped in half a breath
> before letting it out in a "HA"!
>
> > Actually, I use flat bottom Pyrex glass baking dishes
> > on
> > top of bricks painted flat black. During the day-as long as there's
> > sun-,
> > the bricks get up 40-50* in 20* weather. Aluminum cookie pans painted
> > flat
> > black work well, too. I've been playing around with an idea for small
> > clear
> > poly carbonate "greenhouse" feeders that will keep food and water warm
> > all
> > day- as long as there's sun.
>
> Interesting. I was wondering if a drop or two of Vodka would keep the
water
> from freezing without harming the cats (although I've heard alcohol isn't
> good to drink in the cold, for humans anyway - even though it will feel
warm
> going down it will end up accelerating frost bite). Would that diluted an
> amount do any good or any harm (remember, I live in Houston were we get
all
> of 0.00000000000000000000001% of snowfall per decade)?

My cats prefer snifter of Remy after dinner. lol!

> > It seems almost every season has its own particular trials
> >> (Spring - kitten season, Summer - parasites, Winter - freezing
> >> temperatures).
> >
> > This kitten season was a nightmare- a 3-litter season. We're still
> > finding
> > kittens. We trapped and neutered over 2,000 cats this year so far-
> > about
> > 1,500 were female-- which would have produced over 4,000 *litters*
> > ~16,000
> > kittens- next year. The anti TNR morons never think about how many
> > cats
> > there *would be* without TNR programs- they only know how to bitch and
> > moan
> > about the cats they can see.
>
> Yep, they can't "get" the concept that as soon as one cat vacates a
> "territory", another will take his place. Nature, unfortunately, abhors a
> vacuum! Have you been following the bru-ha-ha at the port authority?

A few of us went out there a few times wearing our wooden French shoes...



> > I gotta run.. I'm have to get ready to break some more no-feeding laws
> > tonight...
>
> LOL! I'd bail you out of jail any time!

They have to catch me first...


Phil

Phil P.
November 29th 07, 05:30 PM
"-Lost" > wrote in message
...
> Response to "Phil P." >:
>
> >> It's not too late to train him away from his aggression.
> >
> > *Defensive* play agrgession. The wounds in the photo were
> > sustained from a cat defending himself..
>
> You're full of ****e.

I don' think so.

CatNipped[_2_]
November 29th 07, 07:18 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Now I only work a few colonies in problem anti-cat towns. One city slaps
> you
> with a $2,000 fine for feeding stray/feral cats. Residents of the town
> can't
> even leave food out for their own cats! They can only leave food out for 2
> hours after sunrise and 2 hours after sunset-- only on their *own*
> property.

What total crap! Don't tell me - they're worried about their song-bird
population! I get *SO* tired of the myths still perpetuated about cats.
Just last night on "Criminal Minds" one of the characters declared that "a
domestic cat in an area is a small-scale ecological disaster, they will kill
every bird, rodent and insect - even other cats and small dogs." Have you
ever heard such an illogical, idiotic statement??! Think it through people!

> Ain't that some ****? Its actually an unenforceable law-- unless the
> feeder
> is a complete moron.

True - I'm sure there are cops out there scouring the streets for those
vicious cat feeders who are going to bring society to its knees! ;>

>
> One colony covers about a mile. At first I thought they were a few
> individual colonies. But while we were trapping, we saw a lot cats we
> already TNR'd from other locations. Its kinda like a little "kitty city"
> where the cats meet their friends for dinner in restaurants in other
> "neighborhoods". lol!

They *are* very social animals! ;> Despite myths like the one above!

> To be finding pregnant females and 3-5 week-old kittens this time of year,
> the females definitely had indoor lairs with artificial light.

Well, of course! That cute little kitten that Joe Blow got for his kids,
and never bothered to get spayed, is a dirty kitty-slut who went and got
herself preggers - so out the door with her, we can't be bothered with her
any more, she's no longer cute!

> My cats prefer snifter of Remy after dinner. lol!

ROTFLMAO - mine prefer a good Chardonay!

> A few of us went out there a few times wearing our wooden French shoes...

What's the status of that situation? I haven't seen anything about it on
the news lately.

> They have to catch me first...

Run fast, grasshopper, run fast! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

IBen Getiner
December 1st 07, 09:44 PM
On Nov 28, 12:34 pm, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> "IBen Getiner" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Nov 16, 4:10?am, "-Lost" > wrote:
>
> > shallow doped-up people.. The left has you so ****ing BRAINWASHED that
> > you don't even DARE think for your selves. Not even for a second! And
> > certainly not when it's concerning Goddamned ****ing COMMON SENSE. But
>
> LOL! *You've* been common since you were born -
>

Well, apparently it lends to the development of integrity. Why don't
YOU try it sometimes...? You obviously got nothing to lose.. LOL...!!


> your frequent use of
> profanity was the first clue.
>

General Patton swore like a ****ing sailor, and look at what a great
man HE was...
Your value system is ****ed up. That's what the matter iz with you.
But I'm not your Daddy so I'm afraid I kan't help you...


> Sorry guys, I know you shouldn't reply to trolls, but I couldn't pass up
> that straight line.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped

Coward. Stand and fight. Come back here..!!! I'll show YOU a straight
line.. The line from my size 12 boot to your dick-worn ass.


IBen Getiner

Sheelagh>\o\
December 2nd 07, 02:38 PM
<snipped for being a loud mouthed woman beater>

> Coward. Stand and fight. Come back here..!!! I'll show YOU a straight
> line.. The line from my size 12 boot to your dick-worn ass.

Just out of interest, do you normally enjoy booting women with your
BIG size 12's?

Isn't this what you all call trailer park trash?

Funny, I never had you down as the string vest, & 3 days beard growth.
Just goes to show, you have no idea how your talking to when you make
threats like that, doesn't it?

Sheelagh >"o"<