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RPSinha
December 28th 07, 07:06 AM
As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
her mood.

Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.

We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.

We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).

Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
a few?

TIA!

(The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
little later.)

William Graham
December 28th 07, 07:50 AM
"RPSinha" > wrote in message
...
> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> her mood.
>
> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> a few?
>
> TIA!
>
> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> little later.)

I use cat doors....They are small rectangular openings that you put in doors
that have a leather or vinyl flap with a magnet at the bottom that kind of
holds them closed to keep the cold air out. but the cat or small dog can
push against them and they will open so it can go out. If you install them
as far away from the door handle/lock as possible than thieves won't be able
to reach the latch and get in, so they will be relatively safe. but they do
require you to saw a rectangle in your door in order to install
them.....They usually come with instructions and a template for doing
this.....They also have a panel which will block them so your cat (or any
other animal) won't be able to use them. They also make them in long
aluminum sections for installation in sliding glass doors that lead to
patios and the like....We have one of those, and two of the regular kind
that lead from the kitchen to the garage, and thru the garage door to the
outside so our cats can come and go day or night to either the front or the
back yard.

RPSinha
December 28th 07, 08:35 AM
William Graham > wrote:


: I use cat doors....

I appreciate that as a long term solution, if she was my cat, :) but
this trip is a sudden family development and I can only strive to make
her as comfortable as possible for 24 hours and then face he ranger
when I return!

jmc
December 28th 07, 03:02 PM
Suddenly, without warning, RPSinha exclaimed (12/28/2007 3:36 PM):
> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> her mood.
>
> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> a few?
>
> TIA!
>
> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> little later.)

When we leave our cat alone for one or two days (no more!), we leave two
litterboxes (one in the tub, one her normal one), her day's supply of
wet food (she likes it a little old anyway, dunno why), and enough dry
to get her through one more day than I expect to be gone. Also make
sure she has twice as much water as I expect her to need. Minimal
lights, and as for the shades: If she wants to look out the windows she
will, whether the shades are open or closed (unless you have external
wood shutters!). Personally, I'd make it easy for her to look out.
It'll give her something to do.

Leave a couple of safe toys out for her to play with as well.

Make sure a neighbor or friend has the keys to your house, and knows the
cat is there, so in an emergency they can enter your house and rescue
the cat. Or take care of her if for whatever reason you cannot return
when you expect. Ideally, you should have someone look in on her
anyway, at least once every 24 hours.

If you don't think she'll behave well, you might consider keeping her in
a single room (one with a window she can look out of). Still give her
two litterboxes though, it'll reduce the chance of "accidents".

Jodi

Cat Protector
December 28th 07, 04:22 PM
Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside they
can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them, become
a target for predators, and get in fights with other cats. All 3 of my cats
are indoor cats and I'm a lot happier knowing they're safe.


"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "RPSinha" > wrote in message
> ...
>> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
>> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
>> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
>> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
>> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
>> her mood.
>>
>> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>>
>> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
>> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
>> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
>> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>>
>> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
>> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
>> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
>> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>>
>> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
>> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
>> a few?
>>
>> TIA!
>>
>> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
>> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
>> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
>> little later.)
>
> I use cat doors....They are small rectangular openings that you put in
> doors that have a leather or vinyl flap with a magnet at the bottom that
> kind of holds them closed to keep the cold air out. but the cat or small
> dog can push against them and they will open so it can go out. If you
> install them as far away from the door handle/lock as possible than
> thieves won't be able to reach the latch and get in, so they will be
> relatively safe. but they do require you to saw a rectangle in your door
> in order to install them.....They usually come with instructions and a
> template for doing this.....They also have a panel which will block them
> so your cat (or any other animal) won't be able to use them. They also
> make them in long aluminum sections for installation in sliding glass
> doors that lead to patios and the like....We have one of those, and two of
> the regular kind that lead from the kitchen to the garage, and thru the
> garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night to
> either the front or the back yard.
>

blkcatgal
December 28th 07, 04:33 PM
You could leave a radio playing too. The sound of music and/or music might
help.

S.
--
**Visit me and my cats at http://www.island-cats.com/ **
--
"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Suddenly, without warning, RPSinha exclaimed (12/28/2007 3:36 PM):
>> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
>> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
>> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
>> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
>> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
>> her mood. Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert
>> advice with.
>>
>> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
>> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
>> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
>> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>>
>> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
>> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
>> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
>> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>>
>> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
>> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
>> a few?
>>
>> TIA!
>>
>> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
>> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
>> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
>> little later.)
>
> When we leave our cat alone for one or two days (no more!), we leave two
> litterboxes (one in the tub, one her normal one), her day's supply of wet
> food (she likes it a little old anyway, dunno why), and enough dry to get
> her through one more day than I expect to be gone. Also make sure she has
> twice as much water as I expect her to need. Minimal lights, and as for
> the shades: If she wants to look out the windows she will, whether the
> shades are open or closed (unless you have external wood shutters!).
> Personally, I'd make it easy for her to look out. It'll give her something
> to do.
>
> Leave a couple of safe toys out for her to play with as well.
>
> Make sure a neighbor or friend has the keys to your house, and knows the
> cat is there, so in an emergency they can enter your house and rescue the
> cat. Or take care of her if for whatever reason you cannot return when
> you expect. Ideally, you should have someone look in on her anyway, at
> least once every 24 hours.
>
> If you don't think she'll behave well, you might consider keeping her in a
> single room (one with a window she can look out of). Still give her two
> litterboxes though, it'll reduce the chance of "accidents".
>
> Jodi
>

Cat Protector
December 28th 07, 04:36 PM
Or if you have a computer leave it on Cat Galaxy for music.

"blkcatgal" > wrote in message
. ..
> You could leave a radio playing too. The sound of music and/or music
> might help.
>
> S.
> --
> **Visit me and my cats at http://www.island-cats.com/ **
> --
> "jmc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Suddenly, without warning, RPSinha exclaimed (12/28/2007 3:36 PM):
>>> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
>>> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
>>> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
>>> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
>>> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
>>> her mood. Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert
>>> advice with.
>>>
>>> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
>>> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
>>> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
>>> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>>>
>>> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
>>> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
>>> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
>>> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>>>
>>> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
>>> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>>> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
>>> a few?
>>>
>>> TIA!
>>>
>>> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
>>> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
>>> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
>>> little later.)
>>
>> When we leave our cat alone for one or two days (no more!), we leave two
>> litterboxes (one in the tub, one her normal one), her day's supply of wet
>> food (she likes it a little old anyway, dunno why), and enough dry to get
>> her through one more day than I expect to be gone. Also make sure she
>> has twice as much water as I expect her to need. Minimal lights, and as
>> for the shades: If she wants to look out the windows she will, whether
>> the shades are open or closed (unless you have external wood shutters!).
>> Personally, I'd make it easy for her to look out. It'll give her
>> something to do.
>>
>> Leave a couple of safe toys out for her to play with as well.
>>
>> Make sure a neighbor or friend has the keys to your house, and knows the
>> cat is there, so in an emergency they can enter your house and rescue the
>> cat. Or take care of her if for whatever reason you cannot return when
>> you expect. Ideally, you should have someone look in on her anyway, at
>> least once every 24 hours.
>>
>> If you don't think she'll behave well, you might consider keeping her in
>> a single room (one with a window she can look out of). Still give her
>> two litterboxes though, it'll reduce the chance of "accidents".
>>
>> Jodi
>>
>
>

Roemax
December 28th 07, 05:22 PM
your plan is fine
lights are good ,maybe turn on the radio for some "humane company"
cat safe the house...do a google search for that term
cat will do just fine
she will be glad to see you when you return


"RPSinha" > wrote in message
...
> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> her mood.
>
> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> a few?
>
> TIA!
>
> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> little later.)

William Graham
December 28th 07, 05:28 PM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside
> they can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them,
> become a target for predators, and get in fights with other cats. All 3 of
> my cats are indoor cats and I'm a lot happier knowing they're safe.
>
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "RPSinha" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
>>> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
>>> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
>>> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
>>> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
>>> her mood.
>>>
>>> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>>>
>>> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
>>> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
>>> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
>>> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>>>
>>> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
>>> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
>>> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
>>> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>>>
>>> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
>>> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>>> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
>>> a few?
>>>
>>> TIA!
>>>
>>> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
>>> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
>>> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
>>> little later.)
>>
>> I use cat doors....They are small rectangular openings that you put in
>> doors that have a leather or vinyl flap with a magnet at the bottom that
>> kind of holds them closed to keep the cold air out. but the cat or small
>> dog can push against them and they will open so it can go out. If you
>> install them as far away from the door handle/lock as possible than
>> thieves won't be able to reach the latch and get in, so they will be
>> relatively safe. but they do require you to saw a rectangle in your door
>> in order to install them.....They usually come with instructions and a
>> template for doing this.....They also have a panel which will block them
>> so your cat (or any other animal) won't be able to use them. They also
>> make them in long aluminum sections for installation in sliding glass
>> doors that lead to patios and the like....We have one of those, and two
>> of the regular kind that lead from the kitchen to the garage, and thru
>> the garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night
>> to either the front or the back yard.
>>
You may be happier, but are your cats happier? - This is an old argument,
and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to the
circumstances.....If you live in an apartment in the city, and you get a cat
as a kitten, then sure.....You should keep an "indoor cat". but if you live
out in the sticks, and you get cats (as I do) that are strays, feral, or
were already outside cats, then you should keep them as they were, or as
they are accustomed to living, which is outdoors.

Baldoni[_5_]
December 28th 07, 05:35 PM
RPSinha submitted this idea :
> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> her mood.
>
> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> a few?
>
> TIA!
>
> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> little later.)

I got myself another cat to keep the first cat I had company. I now
have 3 cats.

--
Count Baldoni

Sheelagh>\o\
December 28th 07, 06:55 PM
On Dec 28, 4:35*pm, Baldoni > wrote:
> RPSinha submitted this idea :
>
>
>
>
>
> > As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> > year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> > inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> > know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> > each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> > her mood.
>
> > Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> > We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> > this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> > being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> > is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> > We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> > favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> > fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> > she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> > Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> > windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> > be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> > a few?
>
> > TIA!
>
> > (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> > probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> > outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> > little later.)
>
> I got myself another cat to keep the first cat I had company. *I now
> have 3 cats.
>
> --
> Count *Baldoni- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Funny you should say that....
We started the same way, & now we have *A Large Family*. It's a very
Cat- Thing!
Now we have 8 Full Timers :o)

I'd see if I could get a neighbor to call round, just to make sure
that all is well.
This stops you worrying about her, & you. Perhaps someone the cat
knows already?
Just a thought.
Sheelagh >"o"<

William Graham
December 29th 07, 12:03 AM
"jmc" > wrote in message >

Make sure a neighbor or friend has the keys to your house, and knows the
> cat is there, so in an emergency they can enter your house and rescue the
> cat. Or take care of her if for whatever reason you cannot return when
> you expect. Ideally, you should have someone look in on her anyway, at
> least once every 24 hours.
>
There is a lady in our area who does this for a living....She will come in
every day while we are gone and feed and change the water and keep our pets
company for about 30 minutes.....She will also make sure our house is secure
and hasn't been broken into or anything like that. She only charges about
$20 a day for this, and our pets like her.....She will also water our
plants, remove the newspapers from the front porch and do other stuff like
that. She has a couple of daughters who help her out and together with them,
she makes a pretty good living.

RPSinha
December 29th 07, 12:27 AM
William Graham > wrote:

: You may be happier, but are your cats happier? - This is an old argument,
: and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to the
: circumstances...

For a theoretical discussion I also feel that we can't have a universal
rule for cats that ignores all specific circumstances any more than we
could for people or children.

For practical aspects of this particular situation, it really wasn't my
decision. The cat's owners raised her to be outdoor/indoor. The area is
safe enough. When I took over (for a total of 6 months when they are
abroad) I continued with their system. When winter hit, her first one,
she herself was wise enough to become 90% indoor!

Usually people are coming and going and somebody is always around or
about to arrive, and being there for her has not been a problem in
practice. This is a special situation, people are away for the holidays
and then a family situation arose that requires us to be gone for about
24 hours. I just want to make it as comfortable for her as possible.

Regarding your previous comment about cat doors, I want to add that
most ironically her own house, only a few doors away, has a cat door.
However, it must feel lonely there and she has stopped going. I go
there almost everyday to get mail etc and in the beginning I tried to
take her with me thinking she'd like it, but she "dropped out" of the
program herself. So for about two seconds I did think if I should leave
in that house because of the cat door. But all of her life is here now
and we soon felt that she would be happier here.

RPSinha
December 29th 07, 12:32 AM
jmc > wrote:

: When we leave our cat alone for one or two days (no more!), we leave two
: litterboxes (one in the tub, one her normal one), her day's supply of
: wet food (she likes it a little old anyway, dunno why), and enough dry
: to get her through one more day than I expect to be gone. Also make
: sure she has twice as much water as I expect her to need. Minimal
: lights, and as for the shades: If she wants to look out the windows she
: will, whether the shades are open or closed (unless you have external
: wood shutters!). Personally, I'd make it easy for her to look out.
: It'll give her something to do.
:
: Leave a couple of safe toys out for her to play with as well.

Thanks, just the sort of advice I was looking for. Would you scatter
the food and water at a few places leave it all in her usual eating
place?

: If you don't think she'll behave well...

She has never misbehaved---other than waking me up at 4AM. :) I am only
trying to make it comfortable for her.

RPSinha
December 29th 07, 12:36 AM
blkcatgal > wrote:

: You could leave a radio playing too. The sound of music and/or music might
: help.

Great suggestion. We have a classical station, NPR, an all-news
station. Probably one of those at low volume, so she also has the
option to get away from the "music" if she doesn't like it.

I could also leave the TV on without sound. (I don't want a situation
when she has no escape from the sound anywhere in the house.)

Diana
December 29th 07, 01:16 AM
In article >,
"William Graham" > wrote:

> "jmc" > wrote in message >
>
> Make sure a neighbor or friend has the keys to your house, and knows the
> > cat is there, so in an emergency they can enter your house and rescue the
> > cat. Or take care of her if for whatever reason you cannot return when
> > you expect. Ideally, you should have someone look in on her anyway, at
> > least once every 24 hours.
> >
> There is a lady in our area who does this for a living....She will come in
> every day while we are gone and feed and change the water and keep our pets
> company for about 30 minutes.....She will also make sure our house is secure
> and hasn't been broken into or anything like that. She only charges about
> $20 a day for this, and our pets like her.....She will also water our
> plants, remove the newspapers from the front porch and do other stuff like
> that. She has a couple of daughters who help her out and together with them,
> she makes a pretty good living.

Yes, this is great. I have someone who is a Pet Nanny (sort of a
franchise thing in the US) who has been in business for many years--I've
had her for at least 10 years--who feeds pets, walks dogs, waters
plants, brings in the mail and the newspaper,for a current price of $20
per day (has gone up over the years.) A couple of years ago when we had
some horrific storms, she even brought the patio furniture inside the
house to help wind proof us as well as possible. She has a partner, and
during the busiest times will also hire temps from among the students of
veterinary medicine at the local university. It's a wonderful service
to have available. Of course not the same as having someone here with
the cats all of he time, but plenty good enough to give me peace of mind
about leaving for a few days.

Diana

William Graham
December 29th 07, 05:53 AM
"RPSinha" > wrote in message
...
> William Graham > wrote:
>
> : You may be happier, but are your cats happier? - This is an old
> argument,
> : and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to
> the
> : circumstances...
>
> For a theoretical discussion I also feel that we can't have a universal
> rule for cats that ignores all specific circumstances any more than we
> could for people or children.
>
> For practical aspects of this particular situation, it really wasn't my
> decision. The cat's owners raised her to be outdoor/indoor. The area is
> safe enough. When I took over (for a total of 6 months when they are
> abroad) I continued with their system. When winter hit, her first one,
> she herself was wise enough to become 90% indoor!
>
> Usually people are coming and going and somebody is always around or
> about to arrive, and being there for her has not been a problem in
> practice. This is a special situation, people are away for the holidays
> and then a family situation arose that requires us to be gone for about
> 24 hours. I just want to make it as comfortable for her as possible.
>
> Regarding your previous comment about cat doors, I want to add that
> most ironically her own house, only a few doors away, has a cat door.
> However, it must feel lonely there and she has stopped going. I go
> there almost everyday to get mail etc and in the beginning I tried to
> take her with me thinking she'd like it, but she "dropped out" of the
> program herself. So for about two seconds I did think if I should leave
> in that house because of the cat door. But all of her life is here now
> and we soon felt that she would be happier here.

Yes. Of my four cats, the one who spends the most time indoors is the
(former) feral cat that wouldn't even come in the house for the first three
years we fed him. Now, he seldom leaves unless we have company.....More than
about one stranger is too much for him, and he will leave until they are
gone. Of the other three, they seldom leave the property, especially in
Winter. And you are right. Cats in general like the company of people. Even
wild ones like to hang around humans. My cousin used to own a grape farm in
California's Napa Valley, and she had three wild cats that she watered, but
didn't feed, so they would keep the birds away from the grapes.....These
cats were unapproachable, but they still liked to lay around the farmhouse,
about 10 or 15 yards from us while we were on her sundeck.

William Graham
December 29th 07, 05:58 AM
"RPSinha" > wrote in message
...
> blkcatgal > wrote:
>
> : You could leave a radio playing too. The sound of music and/or music
> might
> : help.
>
> Great suggestion. We have a classical station, NPR, an all-news
> station. Probably one of those at low volume, so she also has the
> option to get away from the "music" if she doesn't like it.
>
> I could also leave the TV on without sound. (I don't want a situation
> when she has no escape from the sound anywhere in the house.)

Careful with the TV....I used to investigate fires and other accidents for a
living. TV's frequently start fires in homes.....Also, don't leave torchier
halogen lamps and other high energy sources energized while you are gone.
Now, I will leave these small screw-in fluorescents on, but seldom anything
else....

David[_2_]
December 29th 07, 09:21 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside
> they can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them,
> become a target for predators, and get in fights with other cats. All 3 of
> my cats are indoor cats and I'm a lot happier knowing they're safe.
>

I'm sure the newgroup is sick of the argument but for anyone who does feel
like joining in...

My cat is an indoor cat. The thought of him ever making it outside makes me
sick.

That being said, my position is that if a cat is not raised as an indoors
cat and has its claws, then I see no problem with allowing it to roam
outdoors.

Cats are animals. They live outdoors in the wild. In the past I may have
said that cats should not be allowed out doors in big cities but I live in
an apartment in a metropolitan area and there has been a cat I catch jumping
out of our dumpster on a regular basis. It is a healthy looking at so I am
not sure if it has a home that it goes to but it manages to survive the time
it does spend outside. I've thought about trying to catch it and calling
animal control but it is alive, it looks healthy, and it will not stay that
way if it gets euthinized.

I think arguing that cats should be kept indoors all the time because of the
reasons you mention, Cat Protector, is made for good reasons but is
unrealistic. An indoors cat could die in more than one ways from being
trapped indoors. I doubt an unbiased party has attempted to generate
statistics for the chances of an indoor cat living vs. an outdoor cat but
even if it is well know, the point is that you can not protect a cat from
everything.

A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still go
camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside.

As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple fact of
the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just like us.

My two cents.

David


>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "RPSinha" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
>>> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
>>> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
>>> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
>>> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
>>> her mood.
>>>
>>> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>>>
>>> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
>>> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
>>> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
>>> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>>>
>>> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
>>> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
>>> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
>>> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>>>
>>> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
>>> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>>> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
>>> a few?
>>>
>>> TIA!
>>>
>>> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
>>> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
>>> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
>>> little later.)
>>
>> I use cat doors....They are small rectangular openings that you put in
>> doors that have a leather or vinyl flap with a magnet at the bottom that
>> kind of holds them closed to keep the cold air out. but the cat or small
>> dog can push against them and they will open so it can go out. If you
>> install them as far away from the door handle/lock as possible than
>> thieves won't be able to reach the latch and get in, so they will be
>> relatively safe. but they do require you to saw a rectangle in your door
>> in order to install them.....They usually come with instructions and a
>> template for doing this.....They also have a panel which will block them
>> so your cat (or any other animal) won't be able to use them. They also
>> make them in long aluminum sections for installation in sliding glass
>> doors that lead to patios and the like....We have one of those, and two
>> of the regular kind that lead from the kitchen to the garage, and thru
>> the garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night
>> to either the front or the back yard.
>>
>
>
>

Upscale
December 29th 07, 10:16 AM
"David" > wrote in message
> an apartment in a metropolitan area and there has been a cat I catch
jumping
> out of our dumpster on a regular basis. It is a healthy looking at so I
am
> not sure if it has a home that it goes to but it manages to survive the
time
> it does spend outside. I've thought about trying to catch it and calling
> animal control but it is alive, it looks healthy, and it will not stay
that
> way if it gets euthinized.

If that outdoor cat was spayed or neutered, I'd agree with you. However, too
many wild, outdoor cats have a difficult time living outdoors in cities or
anywhere else, especially in climates that have frigid winters. Add into the
mix how fast cats can procreate and one realizes that feral cats can quickly
become a real problem. To ignore outdoor cats assuming that they're living
well is dooming a substantial number of them to hard, difficult deaths by
starvation, cold, traffic, abuse or otherwise.

My cat still has her claws, but she is the gentlest, most friendly cat one
would ever want to have. I shudder to think of her foraging outside by
herself in winter and struggling to survive.

My two cents.

jmc
December 29th 07, 11:42 AM
Suddenly, without warning, Cat Protector exclaimed (12/29/2007 12:52 AM):
> Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside they
> can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them, become
> a target for predators, and get in fights with other cats. All 3 of my cats
> are indoor cats and I'm a lot happier knowing they're safe.
>
>

I was waiting for you to say that :)

jmc

jmc
December 29th 07, 11:44 AM
Suddenly, without warning, RPSinha exclaimed (12/29/2007 9:02 AM):
> jmc > wrote:
>
> : When we leave our cat alone for one or two days (no more!), we leave two
> : litterboxes (one in the tub, one her normal one), her day's supply of
> : wet food (she likes it a little old anyway, dunno why), and enough dry
> : to get her through one more day than I expect to be gone. Also make
> : sure she has twice as much water as I expect her to need. Minimal
> : lights, and as for the shades: If she wants to look out the windows she
> : will, whether the shades are open or closed (unless you have external
> : wood shutters!). Personally, I'd make it easy for her to look out.
> : It'll give her something to do.
> :
> : Leave a couple of safe toys out for her to play with as well.
>
> Thanks, just the sort of advice I was looking for. Would you scatter
> the food and water at a few places leave it all in her usual eating
> place?

Usual eating place. Not sure why you'd want to scatter it around,
unless she's a couch-potato cat that needs the exercise.

>
> : If you don't think she'll behave well...
>
> She has never misbehaved---other than waking me up at 4AM. :) I am only
> trying to make it comfortable for her.

She'll be fine, but may take a while to forgive you once you get back :)

jmc

Upscale
December 29th 07, 12:10 PM
"jmc" > wrote in message
> She'll be fine, but may take a while to forgive you once you get back :)

I remember about 18 months ago when without much warning on a Monday, I went
into the hospital for four days. I had a friend go over to my apartment that
evening and fill up her gravity feed water dish and kibble in her gravity
feed food dishes that held over a weeks worth of both.

I came home on the Friday and my one year old Deetoo was about three pounds
heavier and looked like she was four inches longer. It was like she went
from still a little big kitten size to full grown, big cat. I came in the
door, she came up and sniffed me once and then walked away, ignoring me
completely. I knew I'd have to put in considerable effort to get in her good
graces again.

Stan Brown
December 29th 07, 01:53 PM
Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:28:44 -0800 from William Graham <weg9
@comcast.net>:
> This is an old argument,
> and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to the
> circumstances.....If you live in an apartment in the city, and you get a cat
> as a kitten, then sure.....You should keep an "indoor cat". but if you live
> out in the sticks, and you get cats (as I do) that are strays, feral, or
> were already outside cats, then you should keep them as they were, or as
> they are accustomed to living, which is outdoors.

There's something to that, but I would question even that rule of
thumb.

Dexter the Wonder Cat was an indoor/outdoor cat for his first five or
six years. (I got him as a kitten, from a country farm.) I lived in a
one-family house in a fairly dense inner suburb of Cleveland.

When I was speaking with the animal warden on an unrelated matter,
she strongly advised keeping Dexter indoors, not only because of cars
and diseases and possible fights with other cats, but because of the
skunks in the area. "I bring in at least one dead cat a shift, that
has tangled with a skunk." This tipped the balance for me, since the
vet had also advised keeping Dexter indoors.

It took a few weeks of being *very* careful whenever I opened a door,
but Dexter did adjust to being an indoor kitty. He loved sitting in
the windowsill and watching the goings-on outdoors, and would run
from one window to another to follow the progress of people or
animals.

It certainly helped that I spent a lot of time playing with him, but
my experience is evidence that an indoor-outdoor cat can become a
happy indoor-only cat.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

Stan Brown
December 29th 07, 01:56 PM
Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:06:59 -0600 from RPSinha >:
> Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?!

Definitely open. Cats get bored easily.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

Stan Brown
December 29th 07, 01:59 PM
Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:32:51 -0600 from RPSinha >:
> Would you scatter the food and water at a few places leave it all
> in her usual eating place?

Cats are creatures of habit. She'll expect to find food in the usual
place.

Contrariwise, why would you want her to start looking all over the
hose for food?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

(PeteCresswell)
December 29th 07, 04:00 PM
Per William Graham:
>Careful with the TV....I used to investigate fires and other accidents for a
>living. TV's frequently start fires in homes.....Also, don't leave torchier
>halogen lamps and other high energy sources energized while you are gone.
>Now, I will leave these small screw-in fluorescents on, but seldom anything
>else....

When I was about 15 years old, my mom expressed anxiety that the
hi-fi was always left plugged in - was afraid it might explode.

Knowing all there was to know about everything at the time, I
pedanticated on her for about five minutes about how electronic
things can't explode.

While I was going on and on... "Wham!!!" loud noise, smoke,
strong smell.

A power supply capacitor in the hi-fi's amplifier had exploded -
right on cue.
--
PeteCresswell

blkcatgal
December 29th 07, 06:02 PM
Leave them opened. Otherwise you may find the shades clawed up or torn down
when you get home. When I went on vacation one time, I left the miniblinds
in one room closed. When I got home, I found the miniblinds pulled out of
the window and on the floor. I had a petsitter coming to my home twice a
day during that time and the cat still tried to go through the blinds.

S.
--
**Visit me and my cats at http://www.island-cats.com/ **
---

"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:06:59 -0600 from RPSinha >:
>> Should we leave the
>> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>> be fun for her or torture?!
>
> Definitely open. Cats get bored easily.
>
> --
> Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
> http://OakRoadSystems.com/
> "If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
> been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

Upscale
December 29th 07, 06:11 PM
"blkcatgal" > wrote in message
> Leave them opened. Otherwise you may find the shades clawed up or torn
down
> when you get home.

My biggest problem was my new kitty climbing up the shower curtain. I'd come
in and take a shower and realize that the curtain had been turned into a
sieve with water all over the bathroom. After the first couple of times, I
learned to toss the shower curtains up over the rod a few times so she
couldn't reach them.

Cat Protector
December 29th 07, 07:27 PM
Alright, perhaps this story will help support the reason why cats should be
kept indoors. Last year I had the chance to write a story about the EAMT
(Emergency Animal Medical Technician) unit here in Phoenix. One of the calls
we went out on was about a mother cat and her kittens which were thrown in
the trash dumpster by one of the residents of an apartment complex in west
Phoenix. When we got there, another resident had pulled them from the
dumpster and thus we were able to save them and transport them to the
shelter. The thing that was sickening was the fact that the person who was
suspected to have thrown them in the trash like beer cans walked right past
us and didn't bat an eye.

So, I think the question is this. If you let your own cat run free would you
feel ok if someone picked up your cat, threw them in the trash and then
didn't tell you about it? How also would you feel if your cat was found dead
after it sufficated because more trash was piled on top of them as they
meowed and cried for help but nobody did anything to stop it. The mother cat
and her kittens were lucky but this could;ve been the scenario that played
out if another resident hadn't heard there cries and crawled into the
dumpster to get them out. This also happened in a bad part of town but still
scenarios like this can happen even in the best of neighborhoods as animal
abuse knows no bounds.

You can argue how it's ok to let them out all you want but that means you
also give permission to someone to possibly abuse or kill them. Would you
feel ok if that happens?

"David" > wrote in message
. ..
> I'm sure the newgroup is sick of the argument but for anyone who does feel
> like joining in...
>
> My cat is an indoor cat. The thought of him ever making it outside makes
> me sick.
>
> That being said, my position is that if a cat is not raised as an indoors
> cat and has its claws, then I see no problem with allowing it to roam
> outdoors.
>
> Cats are animals. They live outdoors in the wild. In the past I may have
> said that cats should not be allowed out doors in big cities but I live in
> an apartment in a metropolitan area and there has been a cat I catch
> jumping out of our dumpster on a regular basis. It is a healthy looking
> at so I am not sure if it has a home that it goes to but it manages to
> survive the time it does spend outside. I've thought about trying to
> catch it and calling animal control but it is alive, it looks healthy, and
> it will not stay that way if it gets euthinized.
>
> I think arguing that cats should be kept indoors all the time because of
> the reasons you mention, Cat Protector, is made for good reasons but is
> unrealistic. An indoors cat could die in more than one ways from being
> trapped indoors. I doubt an unbiased party has attempted to generate
> statistics for the chances of an indoor cat living vs. an outdoor cat but
> even if it is well know, the point is that you can not protect a cat from
> everything.
>
> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still go
> camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside.
>
> As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple fact
> of the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just like us.
>
> My two cents.
>
> David
>
>
>>
>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>
>>> "RPSinha" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
>>>> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
>>>> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
>>>> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
>>>> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
>>>> her mood.
>>>>
>>>> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>>>>
>>>> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
>>>> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
>>>> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
>>>> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>>>>
>>>> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
>>>> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
>>>> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
>>>> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>>>>
>>>> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
>>>> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>>>> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
>>>> a few?
>>>>
>>>> TIA!
>>>>
>>>> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
>>>> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
>>>> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
>>>> little later.)
>>>
>>> I use cat doors....They are small rectangular openings that you put in
>>> doors that have a leather or vinyl flap with a magnet at the bottom that
>>> kind of holds them closed to keep the cold air out. but the cat or small
>>> dog can push against them and they will open so it can go out. If you
>>> install them as far away from the door handle/lock as possible than
>>> thieves won't be able to reach the latch and get in, so they will be
>>> relatively safe. but they do require you to saw a rectangle in your door
>>> in order to install them.....They usually come with instructions and a
>>> template for doing this.....They also have a panel which will block them
>>> so your cat (or any other animal) won't be able to use them. They also
>>> make them in long aluminum sections for installation in sliding glass
>>> doors that lead to patios and the like....We have one of those, and two
>>> of the regular kind that lead from the kitchen to the garage, and thru
>>> the garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night
>>> to either the front or the back yard.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Cat Protector
December 29th 07, 07:43 PM
Someone had to. Every rescue group in the country tries to put across this
message and yet people still insist to let their cats roam outside and
ignore the dangers. I don't think they really start to care unless their cat
falls victim to some act of cruelty. In the past year we've had two heavy
acts of animal cruelty involving cats in the Phoenix area. One was shot
multiple times with a pellet gun and another had a rubber band tied around
their genitals so tightly that it caused a rupture and the poor cat had to
be euthanized. These cats might not have fallen victim if they were kept
indoors and safe by their humans.

I guess those who argue that it's ok to let their cats be outside don't
think it could happen to their cat. I know I wouldn't want my cats outside
knowing that at any moment they could be the next victim of acts of cruelty
like the ones mentioned above.


"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> I was waiting for you to say that :)
>
> jmc

RPSinha
December 29th 07, 07:57 PM
Good advice and appreciated. I'll leave the radio on, tv off and
disconnect all unnecessary stuff (stereo, computer, toaster) that I
would have anyway. I'll leave a few lights on, low-wattage energy saver
types.

Two thoughts:

1. What temperature should the thermostat be set to? (Outside is
typically a high of 30 and low of 20; we set thermostat at 67 daytime
and 60 while sleeping.)

2. Should I scatter "orange peels" around electrical outlets? :) She
shows some interest in cords, not too obsessive about them, and is
easily distracted away from them when we are here. But we are talking
24 hours alone.

RPSinha
December 29th 07, 08:00 PM
jmc > wrote:

: Usual eating place. Not sure why you'd want to scatter it around,
: unless she's a couch-potato cat that needs the exercise.

As you can tell, I don't have experience with this, only thinking
theoretically. The idea behind scattering was so she'll be less likely
to eat too much at once. :)

Cat Protector
December 29th 07, 08:01 PM
This reminds me of the story about my brother and sister-in-law's cat Cody.
They live in a rural type area with plenty of forestland. One day my
sister-in-law came across a cat that had one paw get stuck in his collar and
had to walk like that because he must have been trying to break free from
it. Anyway, he was obviously in that condition for quite some time and
having to hunt for food and survive like that for some time in an area full
of predators is makes survivability very slim. Anyway, the cat did have an
injury so my sister-in-law and brother brought him to the vet who found the
human the cat belonged to. Imagine their surprise when the vet told them
that the guy didn't want the cat because he didn't want to pay for
treatment. My brother and sis-in-law paid for the treatment and kept the
cat. They have 5 of them now.

"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:28:44 -0800 from William Graham <weg9
> @comcast.net>:
>> This is an old argument,
>> and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to
>> the
>> circumstances.....If you live in an apartment in the city, and you get a
>> cat
>> as a kitten, then sure.....You should keep an "indoor cat". but if you
>> live
>> out in the sticks, and you get cats (as I do) that are strays, feral, or
>> were already outside cats, then you should keep them as they were, or as
>> they are accustomed to living, which is outdoors.
>
> There's something to that, but I would question even that rule of
> thumb.
>
> Dexter the Wonder Cat was an indoor/outdoor cat for his first five or
> six years. (I got him as a kitten, from a country farm.) I lived in a
> one-family house in a fairly dense inner suburb of Cleveland.
>
> When I was speaking with the animal warden on an unrelated matter,
> she strongly advised keeping Dexter indoors, not only because of cars
> and diseases and possible fights with other cats, but because of the
> skunks in the area. "I bring in at least one dead cat a shift, that
> has tangled with a skunk." This tipped the balance for me, since the
> vet had also advised keeping Dexter indoors.
>
> It took a few weeks of being *very* careful whenever I opened a door,
> but Dexter did adjust to being an indoor kitty. He loved sitting in
> the windowsill and watching the goings-on outdoors, and would run
> from one window to another to follow the progress of people or
> animals.
>
> It certainly helped that I spent a lot of time playing with him, but
> my experience is evidence that an indoor-outdoor cat can become a
> happy indoor-only cat.
>
> --
> Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
> http://OakRoadSystems.com/
> "If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
> been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

RPSinha
December 29th 07, 08:03 PM
Stan Brown > wrote:

: Contrariwise, why would you want her to start looking all over the
: hose for food?

I thought that would make it less likely that she tries to eat all of
it or too much of it at one time.

Maybe not a good idea for other reasons. I am trying to minimize her
stress and finding her food where she always does should be part of
that.

Ivor Jones[_2_]
December 29th 07, 09:20 PM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message

: : Alright, perhaps this story will help support the
: : reason why cats should be kept indoors. Last year I had
: : the chance to write a story about the EAMT (Emergency
: : Animal Medical Technician) unit here in Phoenix. One of
: : the calls we went out on was about a mother cat and her
: : kittens which were thrown in the trash dumpster by one
: : of the residents of an apartment complex in west
: : Phoenix. When we got there, another resident had pulled
: : them from the dumpster and thus we were able to save
: : them and transport them to the shelter. The thing that
: : was sickening was the fact that the person who was
: : suspected to have thrown them in the trash like beer
: : cans walked right past us and didn't bat an eye.

That's a sad story and I am very sorry, but in itself is not a reason to
keep *all* cats indoors. In that particular area, maybe, but not
*everywhere*. An individual must make the decision for themselves based on
their location and situation.

Here in the UK we don't behave like that. Well I suppose there are some
that would but for the most part they don't. I've had cats for the best
part of 40 years, all have been free to come and go as they please and all
have lived to ripe old ages (average 16-18).

Ivor

Cat Protector
December 29th 07, 09:40 PM
It isn't? What if it happened to your cat? Why is that people wait until it
happens to their cats before they do anything? It seems to me that if you
act responsibily by keeping your cat indoors then you not only save their
lives but also keep them from becoming victims. I guess I have to ask again,
if your cat dies as a result of you not keeping them indoors, how would you
feel? BTW, cats that live indoors have a longer life span than those that
are outdoors.


"Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
...
> That's a sad story and I am very sorry, but in itself is not a reason to
> keep *all* cats indoors. In that particular area, maybe, but not
> *everywhere*. An individual must make the decision for themselves based on
> their location and situation.
>
> Here in the UK we don't behave like that. Well I suppose there are some
> that would but for the most part they don't. I've had cats for the best
> part of 40 years, all have been free to come and go as they please and all
> have lived to ripe old ages (average 16-18).
>
> Ivor
>

Ivor Jones[_2_]
December 30th 07, 12:02 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message

: : It isn't? What if it happened to your cat? Why is that
: : people wait until it happens to their cats before they
: : do anything? It seems to me that if you act
: : responsibily by keeping your cat indoors then you not
: : only save their lives but also keep them from becoming
: : victims. I guess I have to ask again, if your cat dies
: : as a result of you not keeping them indoors, how would
: : you feel? BTW, cats that live indoors have a longer
: : life span than those that are outdoors.

Please don't top post, it makes life very difficult following the thread.

To answer your question, no cat I have had in 40 years has ever died from
any cause that could be attributed to being outdoors. We live in a very
quiet area with no through traffic and no idiots running around with guns,
unlike some parts of the world.

As I also said, if you had read my post, all my cats have lived long happy
lives, the *average* age when they died was around 16 to 18.


Ivor

philo
December 30th 07, 12:15 AM
"RPSinha" > wrote in message
...
> jmc > wrote:
>
> : Usual eating place. Not sure why you'd want to scatter it around,
> : unless she's a couch-potato cat that needs the exercise.
>
> As you can tell, I don't have experience with this, only thinking
> theoretically. The idea behind scattering was so she'll be less likely
> to eat too much at once. :)


Cat's are very independent...
and sleep a lot...
so being gone 24 hours will be no big deal

Cat Protector
December 30th 07, 12:34 AM
"Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
...
>
> Please don't top post, it makes life very difficult following the thread.
>
> To answer your question, no cat I have had in 40 years has ever died from
> any cause that could be attributed to being outdoors. We live in a very
> quiet area with no through traffic and no idiots running around with guns,
> unlike some parts of the world.
>
> As I also said, if you had read my post, all my cats have lived long happy
> lives, the *average* age when they died was around 16 to 18.
>
>
> Ivor
>

It's funny how there are always people who say that because they live in
some quiet area that nothing will ever happen with their cats. A cat can
fall victim to animal cruelty no matter where they live. All it takes is one
incident. It doesn't matter the age of the cat. The statistics are very
clear also on cats that live indoors compared to ones that are outdoors.
Cats that are indoor only will live much longer than those that spend their
times outdoors.

You claim to have no through traffic so how does one reach your house. Are
you going by horse and carriage or do you actually have cars? My brother and
sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they still ended up saving a cat
that was wounded because his previous human allowed his cat not only to roam
but also because he didn't want to pay the vet bill. The cat was lucky to
survive in the condition he was in and could've fallen victim to predators.

Regardless of where you live, in every country in this world there are
people that if they had the chance could cause harm to your cat. Animal
abuse has no boundaries and if you run the risk of allowing your cat to roam
outside then you knowingly put them in danger that they don't need to be in.
You also didn't even answer any of the questions. Could you really live with
yourself if someone found your cat, abused or tortured him and then left him
to die? How would you feel if you could've knowingly prevented something
like that by simply not allowing your cat to roam outside? I hope you never
have to go through that.

Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat that they let roam free.
Little did they realize that one day they found their cat had been beheaded
and her body thrown into their yard. After that they definately had a
tighter grip on their cats and kept them as indoor only. All it took was one
incident for them to learn that you need to keep your cats indoors.

Ivor Jones[_2_]
December 30th 07, 01:53 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message

: : "Ivor Jones" > wrote in
: : message ...
: : :
: : : Please don't top post, it makes life very difficult
: : : following the thread.
: : :
: : : To answer your question, no cat I have had in 40
: : : years has ever died from any cause that could be
: : : attributed to being outdoors. We live in a very quiet
: : : area with no through traffic and no idiots running
: : : around with guns, unlike some parts of the world.
: : :
: : : As I also said, if you had read my post, all my cats
: : : have lived long happy lives, the *average* age when
: : : they died was around 16 to 18.
: : :
: : :
: : : Ivor
: : :
: :
: : It's funny how there are always people who say that
: : because they live in some quiet area that nothing will
: : ever happen with their cats. A cat can fall victim to
: : animal cruelty no matter where they live. All it takes
: : is one incident. It doesn't matter the age of the cat.
: : The statistics are very clear also on cats that live
: : indoors compared to ones that are outdoors. Cats that
: : are indoor only will live much longer than those that
: : spend their times outdoors.

Statistics are notorious for being manipulated to say whatever the person
quoting them wants them to say. I take them with a pinch of salt.
Personally I trust personal experience. *In this area* where I have lived
for 35 years + there have never to my knowledge been any cases of cats
dying or coming to harm *because they have been allowed outdoors*. In your
area this is obviously different and if I were where you are I would
probably do the same as you, but please don't force your views on me and
my cats; you do not live here and do not know the local area.

Yes it is *possible* that someone could be cruel to one of my cats, but
then again it is also possible that someone could climb up a ladder and
jump off the roof of my house. Personal experience tells me either is
unlikely to happen here and it is taking that into account that I feel
safe in letting cats outside around here.

: : You claim to have no through traffic so how does one
: : reach your house. Are you going by horse and carriage
: : or do you actually have cars?

I said *through* traffic, do you know what that means..?

: : My brother and
: : sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they still
: : ended up saving a cat that was wounded because his
: : previous human allowed his cat not only to roam but
: : also because he didn't want to pay the vet bill. The
: : cat was lucky to survive in the condition he was in and
: : could've fallen victim to predators.

I am very sorry to hear it. But we have no predators to speak of here and
my present cat never wanders far.

: : Regardless of where you live, in every country in this
: : world there are people that if they had the chance
: : could cause harm to your cat. Animal abuse has no
: : boundaries and if you run the risk of allowing your cat
: : to roam outside then you knowingly put them in danger
: : that they don't need to be in.

Yes, cruelty can happen anywhere, but it has never happened within my
cats'roaming radius to my knowledge.

: : You also didn't even
: : answer any of the questions. Could you really live with
: : yourself if someone found your cat, abused or tortured
: : him and then left him to die?

I would be devastated. But as I said it has never happened in this area
and the chances of it happening are as remote as you jumping off my roof.

: : How would you feel if you
: : could've knowingly prevented something like that by
: : simply not allowing your cat to roam outside? I hope
: : you never have to go through that.

So do I, but the level of risk is worth taking. Not for you, that I agree,
but here things are different.

Incidentally, I happen to have a friend who lives not far from Phoenix,
who also has cats. She keeps them inside and I understand why. But she
admits if she were here in the UK things would be different.

: : Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat that they
: : let roam free. Little did they realize that one day
: : they found their cat had been beheaded and her body
: : thrown into their yard. After that they definately had
: : a tighter grip on their cats and kept them as indoor
: : only. All it took was one incident for them to learn
: : that you need to keep your cats indoors.

I am glad I don't live where you do. But if you lived here I think you
would feel different.

I think we'll leave it there. Happy New Year to you and your cats.

Ivor

Cat Protector
December 30th 07, 02:10 AM
Ivor Jones" > wrote in

> Statistics are notorious for being manipulated to say whatever the person
> quoting them wants them to say. I take them with a pinch of salt.
> Personally I trust personal experience. *In this area* where I have lived
> for 35 years + there have never to my knowledge been any cases of cats
> dying or coming to harm *because they have been allowed outdoors*. In your
> area this is obviously different and if I were where you are I would
> probably do the same as you, but please don't force your views on me and
> my cats; you do not live here and do not know the local area.
>
> Yes it is *possible* that someone could be cruel to one of my cats, but
> then again it is also possible that someone could climb up a ladder and
> jump off the roof of my house. Personal experience tells me either is
> unlikely to happen here and it is taking that into account that I feel
> safe in letting cats outside around here.
>
> : : You claim to have no through traffic so how does one
> : : reach your house. Are you going by horse and carriage
> : : or do you actually have cars?
>
> I said *through* traffic, do you know what that means..?
>
> : : My brother and
> : : sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they still
> : : ended up saving a cat that was wounded because his
> : : previous human allowed his cat not only to roam but
> : : also because he didn't want to pay the vet bill. The
> : : cat was lucky to survive in the condition he was in and
> : : could've fallen victim to predators.
>
> I am very sorry to hear it. But we have no predators to speak of here and
> my present cat never wanders far.
>
> : : Regardless of where you live, in every country in this
> : : world there are people that if they had the chance
> : : could cause harm to your cat. Animal abuse has no
> : : boundaries and if you run the risk of allowing your cat
> : : to roam outside then you knowingly put them in danger
> : : that they don't need to be in.
>
> Yes, cruelty can happen anywhere, but it has never happened within my
> cats'roaming radius to my knowledge.
>
> : : You also didn't even
> : : answer any of the questions. Could you really live with
> : : yourself if someone found your cat, abused or tortured
> : : him and then left him to die?
>
> I would be devastated. But as I said it has never happened in this area
> and the chances of it happening are as remote as you jumping off my roof.
>
> : : How would you feel if you
> : : could've knowingly prevented something like that by
> : : simply not allowing your cat to roam outside? I hope
> : : you never have to go through that.
>
> So do I, but the level of risk is worth taking. Not for you, that I agree,
> but here things are different.
>
> Incidentally, I happen to have a friend who lives not far from Phoenix,
> who also has cats. She keeps them inside and I understand why. But she
> admits if she were here in the UK things would be different.
>
> : : Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat that they
> : : let roam free. Little did they realize that one day
> : : they found their cat had been beheaded and her body
> : : thrown into their yard. After that they definately had
> : : a tighter grip on their cats and kept them as indoor
> : : only. All it took was one incident for them to learn
> : : that you need to keep your cats indoors.
>
> I am glad I don't live where you do. But if you lived here I think you
> would feel different.
>
> I think we'll leave it there. Happy New Year to you and your cats.
>
> Ivor
>

I know what through traffic means but you can still hit a cat by accident
with a car regardless. As for predators, are you trying to say that there
are absolutely no predators other than humans that exist in the UK? That's
weird since they exist in every country in the world. Animal cruelty happens
everywhere in the world and it only takes once incident. It happens no
matter whether you live in the city or in the country, it happens. You can
also prevent your own cat from falling victim by keeping them indoors.

The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal rescue group would
manipulate them. Almost every animal rescue group out there will tell you
that a cat living indoors has a much longer life than one that lives
outdoors. You seem to keep stating that it's unlikely to happen you'll ever
encounter animal cruelty but what happens if it does. A lot of people seem
to go out into the world claiming they'd never fall victim to a crime and
that it always happens to someone else and then when they are the victim
that's the only time they'll act.

Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong their life and will
prevent them from falling victim to animal cruelty, getting hit by cars,
getting in fights with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next meal.

Ivor Jones[_2_]
December 30th 07, 02:54 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message

: : Ivor Jones" > wrote in
: :
: : : Statistics are notorious for being manipulated to say
: : : whatever the person quoting them wants them to say. I
: : : take them with a pinch of salt. Personally I trust
: : : personal experience. *In this area* where I have
: : : lived for 35 years + there have never to my knowledge
: : : been any cases of cats dying or coming to harm
: : : *because they have been allowed outdoors*. In your
: : : area this is obviously different and if I were where
: : : you are I would probably do the same as you, but
: : : please don't force your views on me and my cats; you
: : : do not live here and do not know the local area.
: : :
: : : Yes it is *possible* that someone could be cruel to
: : : one of my cats, but then again it is also possible
: : : that someone could climb up a ladder and jump off the
: : : roof of my house. Personal experience tells me either
: : : is unlikely to happen here and it is taking that into
: : : account that I feel safe in letting cats outside
: : : around here.
: : :
: : : : : You claim to have no through traffic so how does
: : : : : one reach your house. Are you going by horse and
: : : : : carriage or do you actually have cars?
: : :
: : : I said *through* traffic, do you know what that
: : : means..?
: : :
: : : : : My brother and
: : : : : sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they
: : : : : still ended up saving a cat that was wounded
: : : : : because his previous human allowed his cat not
: : : : : only to roam but also because he didn't want to
: : : : : pay the vet bill. The cat was lucky to survive in
: : : : : the condition he was in and could've fallen
: : : : : victim to predators.
: : :
: : : I am very sorry to hear it. But we have no predators
: : : to speak of here and my present cat never wanders far.
: : :
: : : : : Regardless of where you live, in every country in
: : : : : this world there are people that if they had the
: : : : : chance could cause harm to your cat. Animal abuse
: : : : : has no boundaries and if you run the risk of
: : : : : allowing your cat to roam outside then you
: : : : : knowingly put them in danger that they don't need
: : : : : to be in.
: : :
: : : Yes, cruelty can happen anywhere, but it has never
: : : happened within my cats'roaming radius to my
: : : knowledge.
: : :
: : : : : You also didn't even
: : : : : answer any of the questions. Could you really
: : : : : live with yourself if someone found your cat,
: : : : : abused or tortured him and then left him to die?
: : :
: : : I would be devastated. But as I said it has never
: : : happened in this area and the chances of it happening
: : : are as remote as you jumping off my roof.
: : :
: : : : : How would you feel if you
: : : : : could've knowingly prevented something like that
: : : : : by simply not allowing your cat to roam outside?
: : : : : I hope you never have to go through that.
: : :
: : : So do I, but the level of risk is worth taking. Not
: : : for you, that I agree, but here things are different.
: : :
: : : Incidentally, I happen to have a friend who lives not
: : : far from Phoenix, who also has cats. She keeps them
: : : inside and I understand why. But she admits if she
: : : were here in the UK things would be different.
: : :
: : : : : Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat
: : : : : that they let roam free. Little did they realize
: : : : : that one day they found their cat had been
: : : : : beheaded and her body thrown into their yard.
: : : : : After that they definately had a tighter grip on
: : : : : their cats and kept them as indoor only. All it
: : : : : took was one incident for them to learn that you
: : : : : need to keep your cats indoors.
: : :
: : : I am glad I don't live where you do. But if you lived
: : : here I think you would feel different.
: : :
: : : I think we'll leave it there. Happy New Year to you
: : : and your cats.
: : :
: : : Ivor
: : :
: :
: : I know what through traffic means but you can still hit
: : a cat by accident with a car regardless. As for
: : predators, are you trying to say that there are
: : absolutely no predators other than humans that exist in
: : the UK?

I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem to
have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your area
happens everywhere.

: : That's weird since they exist in every country
: : in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere in the
: : world and it only takes once incident. It happens no
: : matter whether you live in the city or in the country,
: : it happens. You can also prevent your own cat from
: : falling victim by keeping them indoors.

People jump off roofs everywhere too. But it's never happened here and I
don't think that banning ladders is going to happen any time soon.

: : The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal
: : rescue group would manipulate them. Almost every animal
: : rescue group out there will tell you that a cat living
: : indoors has a much longer life than one that lives
: : outdoors. You seem to keep stating that it's unlikely
: : to happen you'll ever encounter animal cruelty but what
: : happens if it does. A lot of people seem to go out into
: : the world claiming they'd never fall victim to a crime
: : and that it always happens to someone else and then
: : when they are the victim that's the only time they'll
: : act.

I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we have
seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in.

: : Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong
: : their life and will prevent them from falling victim to
: : animal cruelty, getting hit by cars, getting in fights
: : with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next
: : meal.

Bottom line - my cats have been free to go outside for 40 years and not
one of them has ever died other than from natural causes at a ripe old
age. Nor have any of the cats of my neighbours.

I really do think we can leave it there, we're never going to agree and my
cats will always be free to roam. I'm sorry for the problems in your area
but theř're your problems not mine.


Ivor

Cat Protector
December 30th 07, 05:01 AM
"Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
...
>
> I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem to
> have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your area
> happens everywhere.
>
> : : That's weird since they exist in every country
> : : in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere in the
> : : world and it only takes once incident. It happens no
> : : matter whether you live in the city or in the country,
> : : it happens. You can also prevent your own cat from
> : : falling victim by keeping them indoors.
>
> People jump off roofs everywhere too. But it's never happened here and I
> don't think that banning ladders is going to happen any time soon.
>
> : : The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal
> : : rescue group would manipulate them. Almost every animal
> : : rescue group out there will tell you that a cat living
> : : indoors has a much longer life than one that lives
> : : outdoors. You seem to keep stating that it's unlikely
> : : to happen you'll ever encounter animal cruelty but what
> : : happens if it does. A lot of people seem to go out into
> : : the world claiming they'd never fall victim to a crime
> : : and that it always happens to someone else and then
> : : when they are the victim that's the only time they'll
> : : act.
>
> I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we have
> seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in.
>
> : : Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong
> : : their life and will prevent them from falling victim to
> : : animal cruelty, getting hit by cars, getting in fights
> : : with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next
> : : meal.
>
> Bottom line - my cats have been free to go outside for 40 years and not
> one of them has ever died other than from natural causes at a ripe old
> age. Nor have any of the cats of my neighbours.
>
> I really do think we can leave it there, we're never going to agree and my
> cats will always be free to roam. I'm sorry for the problems in your area
> but theř're your problems not mine.
>
>
> Ivor
>


Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics from
animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of your cat
ever falling victim to any kind of bad stuff is rare. You claim to volunteer
for a cat rescue which you say has already seen cases of animal abuse so
isn't that enough to convince you to keep your cats indoors or are you
planning to be one of those people who won't act to protect your cat until
it's too late?

It's obvious from your responses that you really don't care about whether or
not your cats fall victim to animal abuse. I feel really sorry for your cats
because it'd be shame if something happened to them because you chose to be
stubborn. I'll say it one more time, animal abuse happens everywhere and you
knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It only takes
one time for them to become victims of animal abuse.

William Graham
December 30th 07, 07:28 AM
"(PeteCresswell)" > wrote in message
...
> Per William Graham:
>>Careful with the TV....I used to investigate fires and other accidents for
>>a
>>living. TV's frequently start fires in homes.....Also, don't leave
>>torchier
>>halogen lamps and other high energy sources energized while you are gone.
>>Now, I will leave these small screw-in fluorescents on, but seldom
>>anything
>>else....
>
> When I was about 15 years old, my mom expressed anxiety that the
> hi-fi was always left plugged in - was afraid it might explode.
>
> Knowing all there was to know about everything at the time, I
> pedanticated on her for about five minutes about how electronic
> things can't explode.
>
> While I was going on and on... "Wham!!!" loud noise, smoke,
> strong smell.
>
> A power supply capacitor in the hi-fi's amplifier had exploded -
> right on cue.
> --
> PeteCresswell

Well, modern TV's are less likely to cause fires than the old tube sets of
my day, but still and all, I generally unplug anything that uses more than
about 100 watts or so of power when I go on vacation. Even though the
designs are better today, bear in mind that most of the stuff is built by
Chinese children, and it isn't inspected on a unit by unit basis, so you
never know just how flaky any given item will be put together.

William Graham
December 30th 07, 07:33 AM
"David" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside
>> they can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them,
>> become a target for predators, and get in fights with other cats. All 3
>> of my cats are indoor cats and I'm a lot happier knowing they're safe.
>>
>
> I'm sure the newgroup is sick of the argument but for anyone who does feel
> like joining in...
>
> My cat is an indoor cat. The thought of him ever making it outside makes
> me sick.
>
> That being said, my position is that if a cat is not raised as an indoors
> cat and has its claws, then I see no problem with allowing it to roam
> outdoors.
>
> Cats are animals. They live outdoors in the wild. In the past I may have
> said that cats should not be allowed out doors in big cities but I live in
> an apartment in a metropolitan area and there has been a cat I catch
> jumping out of our dumpster on a regular basis. It is a healthy looking
> at so I am not sure if it has a home that it goes to but it manages to
> survive the time it does spend outside. I've thought about trying to
> catch it and calling animal control but it is alive, it looks healthy, and
> it will not stay that way if it gets euthinized.
>
> I think arguing that cats should be kept indoors all the time because of
> the reasons you mention, Cat Protector, is made for good reasons but is
> unrealistic. An indoors cat could die in more than one ways from being
> trapped indoors. I doubt an unbiased party has attempted to generate
> statistics for the chances of an indoor cat living vs. an outdoor cat but
> even if it is well know, the point is that you can not protect a cat from
> everything.
>
> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still go
> camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside.
>
> As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple fact
> of the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just like us.
>
> My two cents.
>
> David

Yes. One of the things I don't have to worry about is any of my cats being
trapped in the house in a fire. They all know how to skeedaddle out through
the cat doors in a hurry when they want to, or have to.

William Graham
December 30th 07, 07:45 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Alright, perhaps this story will help support the reason why cats should
> be kept indoors. Last year I had the chance to write a story about the
> EAMT (Emergency Animal Medical Technician) unit here in Phoenix. One of
> the calls we went out on was about a mother cat and her kittens which were
> thrown in the trash dumpster by one of the residents of an apartment
> complex in west Phoenix. When we got there, another resident had pulled
> them from the dumpster and thus we were able to save them and transport
> them to the shelter. The thing that was sickening was the fact that the
> person who was suspected to have thrown them in the trash like beer cans
> walked right past us and didn't bat an eye.
>
> So, I think the question is this. If you let your own cat run free would
> you feel ok if someone picked up your cat, threw them in the trash and
> then didn't tell you about it? How also would you feel if your cat was
> found dead after it sufficated because more trash was piled on top of them
> as they meowed and cried for help but nobody did anything to stop it. The
> mother cat and her kittens were lucky but this could;ve been the scenario
> that played out if another resident hadn't heard there cries and crawled
> into the dumpster to get them out. This also happened in a bad part of
> town but still scenarios like this can happen even in the best of
> neighborhoods as animal abuse knows no bounds.
>
> You can argue how it's ok to let them out all you want but that means you
> also give permission to someone to possibly abuse or kill them. Would you
> feel ok if that happens?

No, but this is a cruel world. It was a cruel world for millions of years
before human beings appeared on the scene, and we haven't helped matters
much. Millions of sweet furry little innocent creatures starve and/or freeze
to death every Winter, and even under the best of circumstances, wild
animals die tortuous deaths from tooth aches and other terrible infections
and cancerous diseases. I don't have the time or inclination to sit there
and watch over my four cats night and day. I give them shelter, and food and
water, and if they are hurting, I take them to the Vet. (actually, she comes
to me in a mobile unit). Beyond that, they have to learn to take care of
themselves. If you want to spend more of your time than that, well, I have
no objection. But I can't, so I maintain an open home for them in a location
that is as safe as one can expect. (I live in the suburbs on the edge of
town, on a one way street.) That's the best I can do, and most of the
animals I have owned during my 72 years have lived long healthy
lives.....Much longer and healthier than the ones they would have lived had
they never known me, and had to just depend on God.

William Graham
December 30th 07, 07:59 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem
>> to have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your
>> area happens everywhere.
>>
>> : : That's weird since they exist in every country
>> : : in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere in the
>> : : world and it only takes once incident. It happens no
>> : : matter whether you live in the city or in the country,
>> : : it happens. You can also prevent your own cat from
>> : : falling victim by keeping them indoors.
>>
>> People jump off roofs everywhere too. But it's never happened here and I
>> don't think that banning ladders is going to happen any time soon.
>>
>> : : The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal
>> : : rescue group would manipulate them. Almost every animal
>> : : rescue group out there will tell you that a cat living
>> : : indoors has a much longer life than one that lives
>> : : outdoors. You seem to keep stating that it's unlikely
>> : : to happen you'll ever encounter animal cruelty but what
>> : : happens if it does. A lot of people seem to go out into
>> : : the world claiming they'd never fall victim to a crime
>> : : and that it always happens to someone else and then
>> : : when they are the victim that's the only time they'll
>> : : act.
>>
>> I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we
>> have seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in.
>>
>> : : Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong
>> : : their life and will prevent them from falling victim to
>> : : animal cruelty, getting hit by cars, getting in fights
>> : : with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next
>> : : meal.
>>
>> Bottom line - my cats have been free to go outside for 40 years and not
>> one of them has ever died other than from natural causes at a ripe old
>> age. Nor have any of the cats of my neighbours.
>>
>> I really do think we can leave it there, we're never going to agree and
>> my cats will always be free to roam. I'm sorry for the problems in your
>> area but theř're your problems not mine.
>>
>>
>> Ivor
>>
>
>
> Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics
> from animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of
> your cat ever falling victim to any kind of bad stuff is rare. You claim
> to volunteer for a cat rescue which you say has already seen cases of
> animal abuse so isn't that enough to convince you to keep your cats
> indoors or are you planning to be one of those people who won't act to
> protect your cat until it's too late?
>
> It's obvious from your responses that you really don't care about whether
> or not your cats fall victim to animal abuse. I feel really sorry for your
> cats because it'd be shame if something happened to them because you chose
> to be stubborn. I'll say it one more time, animal abuse happens everywhere
> and you knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It
> only takes one time for them to become victims of animal abuse.
>
Being trapped in a burning house with no way to escape is pretty abusive
too. There is a solution, of course.....If you have a lot of property, you
can fence it in with a cat-proof fence, and let your cats roam on it, or
come indoors as they please. Or, if you are wealthy enough to live in a
closed off neighborhood, where you know all the neighbors, you can let your
cats roam free there. Where I live is almost that good....All my neighbors
know and like all my cats.....One of them used to live in the house across
the street from me. She moved in with us when they got a dog, and she
detested the dog. I can't conceive of keeping my cats locked up in the
house....Being outdoors is an integral part of their life. They like to go
to the mailbox and wait there to greet all the neighbors when they come to
pick up their mail.

William Graham
December 30th 07, 08:05 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Someone had to. Every rescue group in the country tries to put across this
> message and yet people still insist to let their cats roam outside and
> ignore the dangers. I don't think they really start to care unless their
> cat falls victim to some act of cruelty. In the past year we've had two
> heavy acts of animal cruelty involving cats in the Phoenix area. One was
> shot multiple times with a pellet gun and another had a rubber band tied
> around their genitals so tightly that it caused a rupture and the poor cat
> had to be euthanized. These cats might not have fallen victim if they were
> kept indoors and safe by their humans.
>
> I guess those who argue that it's ok to let their cats be outside don't
> think it could happen to their cat. I know I wouldn't want my cats outside
> knowing that at any moment they could be the next victim of acts of
> cruelty like the ones mentioned above.
>
Think of the cruelty that has been perpetrated by God on all these cats and
other innocent little animals for the last 100 million years or more. I have
to say that it makes the acts of your cruel neighbors look like child's
play. They will never be able to compete with Him no matter how hard they
try.

Ivor Jones[_2_]
December 30th 07, 09:16 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message

: : "Ivor Jones" > wrote in
: : message ...
: : :
: : : I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in
: : : this area*. You seem to have a problem with that, you
: : : seem to think that what happens in your area happens
: : : everywhere.
: : :
: : : : : That's weird since they exist in every country
: : : : : in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere
: : : : : in the world and it only takes once incident. It
: : : : : happens no matter whether you live in the city or
: : : : : in the country, it happens. You can also prevent
: : : : : your own cat from falling victim by keeping them
: : : : : indoors.
: : :
: : : People jump off roofs everywhere too. But it's never
: : : happened here and I don't think that banning ladders
: : : is going to happen any time soon.
: : :
: : : : : The statistics are very clear and I doubt an
: : : : : animal rescue group would manipulate them. Almost
: : : : : every animal rescue group out there will tell you
: : : : : that a cat living indoors has a much longer life
: : : : : than one that lives outdoors. You seem to keep
: : : : : stating that it's unlikely to happen you'll ever
: : : : : encounter animal cruelty but what happens if it
: : : : : does. A lot of people seem to go out into the
: : : : : world claiming they'd never fall victim to a
: : : : : crime and that it always happens to someone else
: : : : : and then when they are the victim that's the only
: : : : : time they'll act.
: : :
: : : I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue
: : : charity and yes we have seen cases of cruelty, but
: : : not from the area I live in.
: : :
: : : : : Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will
: : : : : prolong their life and will prevent them from
: : : : : falling victim to animal cruelty, getting hit by
: : : : : cars, getting in fights with other cats, and from
: : : : : becoming a predator's next meal.
: : :
: : : Bottom line - my cats have been free to go outside
: : : for 40 years and not one of them has ever died other
: : : than from natural causes at a ripe old age. Nor have
: : : any of the cats of my neighbours.
: : :
: : : I really do think we can leave it there, we're never
: : : going to agree and my cats will always be free to
: : : roam. I'm sorry for the problems in your area but
: : : theř're your problems not mine.
: : :
: : :
: : : Ivor
: : :
: :
: :
: : Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say
: : the statistics from animal rescue groups are
: : manipulated then say that the chances of your cat ever
: : falling victim to any kind of bad stuff is rare. You
: : claim to volunteer for a cat rescue which you say has
: : already seen cases of animal abuse so isn't that enough
: : to convince you to keep your cats indoors or are you
: : planning to be one of those people who won't act to
: : protect your cat until it's too late?

Sigh.. ok let me put it this way. The chances of my cats being hurt due to
abuse are so low as to be infinitesimal. They are far more likely to be
hurt by you coming round and attacking them. It's as simple as that.

I said statistics can be manipulated. This is true and no amount of
arguing on your part will make it otherwise.

: : It's obvious from your responses that you really don't
: : care about whether or not your cats fall victim to
: : animal abuse. I feel really sorry for your cats because
: : it'd be shame if something happened to them because you
: : chose to be stubborn. I'll say it one more time, animal
: : abuse happens everywhere and you knowingly put your
: : cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It only takes
: : one time for them to become victims of animal abuse.

I am deeply offended by your remark. I care more for *all* cats than you
can possibly imagine. Yes, abuse *can* happen any time anywhere, but the
statistics, of which you are so fond, of it happening in this area, say it
is so low as to be not worth bothering with.

I would far rather my cats have their freedom than be confined like
prisoners in a cell.

End of discussion, I do not propose to reply to you any more as I am
wasting my time.

Ivor

IBen Getiner[_2_]
December 30th 07, 10:29 AM
On Dec 28, 1:06´┐Żam, RPSinha > wrote:
> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> her mood.
>
> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> a few?
>
> TIA!
>
> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> little later.)

Believe me, lady.... It's gonna hurt you a lot more than it's gonna
hut her... It's all in your head, dear. Take some advice and take a
rest. Things will be a whole lot calmer for both of you.


IBen Getiner

Stan Brown
December 30th 07, 01:47 PM
Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:54:51 -0000 from Ivor Jones
>:
> I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we have
> seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in.

Deliberate cruelty is a *far* less common cause of death than
misadventure.

"Though traffic" is not the only way a cat can die. Getting run over
at *any* speed could well be fatal. And, as mentioned in another
thread, a cat that has snuggled into an engine compartment faces a
particularly cruel death.

If your neighborhood has no feral predators, no non-feral but
territorial cats, no dogs sometimes off lead, no other cats that
might have a communicable disease, no fleas and no ticks, then it is
quite unusual.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

kraut
December 30th 07, 03:08 PM
>Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics from
>animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of your cat
>ever falling victim to any kind of bad stuff is rare. You claim to volunteer
>for a cat rescue which you say has already seen cases of animal abuse so
>isn't that enough to convince you to keep your cats indoors or are you
>planning to be one of those people who won't act to protect your cat until
>it's too late?
>
>It's obvious from your responses that you really don't care about whether or
>not your cats fall victim to animal abuse. I feel really sorry for your cats
>because it'd be shame if something happened to them because you chose to be
>stubborn. I'll say it one more time, animal abuse happens everywhere and you
>knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It only takes
>one time for them to become victims of animal abuse.

Outdoor / indoor cats is a subject that cat owners will never agree on
like the declawing debate.

As for animal cruelty I agree that it exists EVERYWHERE in one form or
another.

Take for example the ex neighbor of mine that moved this past summer
and left behind his cats that he had ten of. His reasoning is that
they were indoor / outdoor cats even though he fed them indoor on a
regular basis. Just because they were indoor / outdoor they were
supposed to all of a sudden fend for themselves!! I eventually caught
them all and found homes for most of them and the last couple a local
shelter took.

Then there was another ex friend that took his daughters elder cat.
He would let it out whenever it wanted but then would not let it in
unless it was right at the door when he went in the house even though
it would come running as soon as it saw him. Many nights it would set
at the door in freezing weather and snow waiting to go in but end up
crawling under the porch where I finally put some bedding and dry food
and would feed him wet food when I seen him. He dissappeared
eventually and I or his OWNER never saw him again.

Then there were the kids that threw the sickly stray onto the roof of
a 2 story low income projects. The fire depart. got it down. It was
put down by shelter because it had a cat disease.

Then there was another case where a person just fed their cat milk
cause could not afford cat food. The cat lost so much weight it died.

Working in shelter you see all kinds of neglect / abuse ALL OVER!!
And neglect is a form of abuse!!!

Anyone who says there is no abuse / neglect where they live has their
head stuck where ever!!

Kitty
December 30th 07, 04:22 PM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> This reminds me of the story about my brother and sister-in-law's cat
> Cody. They live in a rural type area with plenty of forestland. One day my
> sister-in-law came across a cat that had one paw get stuck in his collar
> and had to walk like that because he must have been trying to break free
> from it. Anyway, he was obviously in that condition for quite some time
> and having to hunt for food and survive like that for some time in an area
> full of predators is makes survivability very slim. Anyway, the cat did
> have an injury so my sister-in-law and brother brought him to the vet who
> found the human the cat belonged to. Imagine their surprise when the vet
> told them that the guy didn't want the cat because he didn't want to pay
> for treatment. My brother and sis-in-law paid for the treatment and kept
> the cat. They have 5 of them now.
>
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:28:44 -0800 from William Graham <weg9
>> @comcast.net>:
>>> This is an old argument,
>>> and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to
>>> the
>>> circumstances.....If you live in an apartment in the city, and you get a
>>> cat
>>> as a kitten, then sure.....You should keep an "indoor cat". but if you
>>> live
>>> out in the sticks, and you get cats (as I do) that are strays, feral, or
>>> were already outside cats, then you should keep them as they were, or as
>>> they are accustomed to living, which is outdoors.
>>
>> There's something to that, but I would question even that rule of
>> thumb.
>>
>> Dexter the Wonder Cat was an indoor/outdoor cat for his first five or
>> six years. (I got him as a kitten, from a country farm.) I lived in a
>> one-family house in a fairly dense inner suburb of Cleveland.
>>
>> When I was speaking with the animal warden on an unrelated matter,
>> she strongly advised keeping Dexter indoors, not only because of cars
>> and diseases and possible fights with other cats, but because of the
>> skunks in the area. "I bring in at least one dead cat a shift, that
>> has tangled with a skunk." This tipped the balance for me, since the
>> vet had also advised keeping Dexter indoors.
>>
>> It took a few weeks of being *very* careful whenever I opened a door,
>> but Dexter did adjust to being an indoor kitty. He loved sitting in
>> the windowsill and watching the goings-on outdoors, and would run
>> from one window to another to follow the progress of people or
>> animals.
>>
>> It certainly helped that I spent a lot of time playing with him, but
>> my experience is evidence that an indoor-outdoor cat can become a
>> happy indoor-only cat.
>>
>> --
>> Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
>> http://OakRoadSystems.com/
>> "If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
>> been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/
>
>

Kudos to your brothers family for helping and adopting the kitty. The
"owner" who did not want the cat because of the vet bill should NEVER be an
owner. Those types don't deserve to be pet "owners".

Kitty

Lesley
December 30th 07, 04:44 PM
On 29 Dec, 03:10, "Upscale" > wrote:
>
> I came home on the Friday and my one year old Deetoo was about three pounds
> heavier and looked like she was four inches longer.

She'd obviously been stuffing her face to pass the time. Funnier still
was the time some friends of mine went to Italy, leaving a friend
staying in their house to look after their cat, Fluff. Brilliant idea,
cat stayed at home for a fortnight with someone he knew. The friend
was between jobs at the time so quite happy to stay at their place and
use their gas and electric not to mention they'd stocked up the fridge
for him as payment for his cat sitting service. They even left the cat
food, telling Paul (the friend) they might stay an extra day or so so
if he did have to buy some extra they'd settle up whern they got back.

What could go wrong?

Well what happened is Paul didn't really know a lot about cats and
they had entirely forgotten to warn him that Fluff was a shameless
opportunist who would beg at his bowl every time anyone went to the
kitchen so of course, first time Paul goes into the kitchen there is
Fluff obviously starving, looking at his bowl and then hopefully at
Paul. And Fluff was not one of those cats who "regulate their food
intake and seldom overeat" as it used to say on the side of cat food
tins. If he had food he would eat it, simple as that

They got back to a large bill for cat food and were greeted by Fluff
who waddled up the hallway to see them,

He was very sorry to see Paul go and even sorrier when he was put on
an immediate diet!

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Upscale
December 30th 07, 05:04 PM
"Lesley" > wrote in message
> They got back to a large bill for cat food and were greeted by Fluff
> who waddled up the hallway to see them,
>
> He was very sorry to see Paul go and even sorrier when he was put on
> an immediate diet!

Har, that's funny.

kraut
December 30th 07, 05:20 PM
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:04:18 -0500, "Upscale" >
wrote:

>> They got back to a large bill for cat food and were greeted by Fluff
>> who waddled up the hallway to see them,
>>
>> He was very sorry to see Paul go and even sorrier when he was put on
>> an immediate diet!
>
>Har, that's funny.
>


It may sound funny but it is not, especially for the cat who had to
pay the price for it in the long rum!!

Stan Brown
December 30th 07, 05:22 PM
Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:08:20 GMT from kraut
>:
> Outdoor / indoor cats is a subject that cat owners will never agree on
> like the declawing debate.
>
> As for animal cruelty I agree that it exists EVERYWHERE in one form or
> another.

Sigh. It is a grave mistake to frame the outdoor/indoor debate in
terms of the peril of animal cruelty. That's like debating the
dangers of smoking by mentioning only the danger of burning yourself
with a cigarette lighter. Both are genuine perils, but quite rare. In
both cases, focusing on the rare peril overlooks the very much more
common peril.

If there were zero cases of cruelty to cats, that would have little
effect on the odds of harm coming to an outdoor cat, because perils
from other animals and from automobiles are much, much more common.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

Ivor Jones[_2_]
December 30th 07, 05:46 PM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t

[snip]

: : If your neighborhood has no feral predators, no
: : non-feral but territorial cats, no dogs sometimes off
: : lead, no other cats that might have a communicable
: : disease, no fleas and no ticks, then it is quite
: : unusual.

As I've repeatedly said, we've had cats at this location for 35 years or
more and none have ever died from any cause that could remotely be
attributed to them being allowed out. The closest we ever came was one who
was found dead on a neighbour's driveway one day, he was 18 and had died
of sheer old age, it just happened that he was out at the time and just
lay down and passed away just yards from his front door.

Ivor

Me[_3_]
December 30th 07, 08:04 PM
"RPSinha" > wrote in message
...
> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> her mood.
>
> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> a few?
>
> TIA!
>
> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> little later.)

Put out a couple of towels that you have "scented" by rubbing them on your
body. Cat will recognize the scent and it might make her feel less alone.
Put the towels in different rooms so you'll follow her every where she goes.
And leave plenty of mousee toys lying around. Leave a light on and a blind
or curtain part way open.

The Horny Goat
December 31st 07, 03:16 AM
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:45:39 -0800, "William Graham"
> wrote:

>no objection. But I can't, so I maintain an open home for them in a location
>that is as safe as one can expect. (I live in the suburbs on the edge of
>town, on a one way street.) That's the best I can do, and most of the
>animals I have owned during my 72 years have lived long healthy
>lives.....Much longer and healthier than the ones they would have lived had
>they never known me, and had to just depend on God.

Our 11 year old kitty was part of a litter of feral cats caught in the
wild and taken to a local vet from where we got her. I have no doubt
that she has already lived longer as an indoor kitty than she would
have had mom and kits not been caught way back when.

She is currently enjoying a second childhood as we have recently
gotten a 5 year old 'rescue' Corgi (who is a monster for his breed at
90 or so lbs) after our 14 year old Corgi went to doggie heaven last
May. The cat always comes round when the dog is being fed as my wife
feeds the dog a mix of dry and wet dog feed and lets the cat lick the
spoon when done.

There's no question which of the 7 lb. kitty or 90 lb. dog rules the
roost....she occasionally will dash out the front door when we bring
in the newspaper but almost always runs out the front door, round the
side of our house through our chain link fence, up the stairs to the
deck and mews at the side door. On a couple of occasions I've called
to the missus who has opened the side door and our kitty runs back
into the house having hardly stopped running the whole time - elapsed
time outdoors maybe 45 seconds!

William Graham
December 31st 07, 06:51 AM
"The Horny Goat" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:45:39 -0800, "William Graham"
> > wrote:
>
>>no objection. But I can't, so I maintain an open home for them in a
>>location
>>that is as safe as one can expect. (I live in the suburbs on the edge of
>>town, on a one way street.) That's the best I can do, and most of the
>>animals I have owned during my 72 years have lived long healthy
>>lives.....Much longer and healthier than the ones they would have lived
>>had
>>they never known me, and had to just depend on God.
>
> Our 11 year old kitty was part of a litter of feral cats caught in the
> wild and taken to a local vet from where we got her. I have no doubt
> that she has already lived longer as an indoor kitty than she would
> have had mom and kits not been caught way back when.
>
> She is currently enjoying a second childhood as we have recently
> gotten a 5 year old 'rescue' Corgi (who is a monster for his breed at
> 90 or so lbs) after our 14 year old Corgi went to doggie heaven last
> May. The cat always comes round when the dog is being fed as my wife
> feeds the dog a mix of dry and wet dog feed and lets the cat lick the
> spoon when done.
>
> There's no question which of the 7 lb. kitty or 90 lb. dog rules the
> roost....she occasionally will dash out the front door when we bring
> in the newspaper but almost always runs out the front door, round the
> side of our house through our chain link fence, up the stairs to the
> deck and mews at the side door. On a couple of occasions I've called
> to the missus who has opened the side door and our kitty runs back
> into the house having hardly stopped running the whole time - elapsed
> time outdoors maybe 45 seconds!

Yes. My "outdoor" cats seldom leave the premises. One likes to wait at the
mailboxes to greet all the neighbors when they come to pick up their mail,
but the mailboxes are right across the street from us. My biggest problem is
their tendency in the Summertime, to lie on the street, or in the driveway
where some truck turning around might run them down. Since we are near the
end of a dead end street, vehicles use our driveway to do a U turn when they
come down our street either by mistake, or to deliver something to one of
us. I purchased a couple of orange traffic cones which I leave in our
driveway, but I still worry about it.

RPSinha
January 3rd 08, 06:19 AM
The below-mentioned trip, in which I had to leave my cat alone for 24
hours for the very first time, has now come and gone. Thanks to all the
helpful advice and suggestions I received here, it went off well.

I fed her just before leaving, left her enough wet and dry foods, fresh
water, fresh litter, some lights on, shades open, lots of bags and
boxes anjd crumpled newpapers scattered around the floor, radio on but
tv off. Some of these pointers I got right here.

I was gone almost 24 hours. When I returned, she seemed a little
anxious but not particularly so and, despite my fears, didn't even seem
angry. :)

So, thanks again.


RPSinha > wrote:

: As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
: year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
: inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
: know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
: each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
: her mood.
:
: Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
:
: We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
: this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
: being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
: is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
:
: We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
: favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
: fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
: she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
:
: Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
: windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
: be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
: a few?
:
: TIA!
:
: (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
: probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
: outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
: little later.)

kraut
January 3rd 08, 02:57 PM
Glad everything went well and you all made it through the ordeal ok.



>The below-mentioned trip, in which I had to leave my cat alone for 24
>hours for the very first time, has now come and gone. Thanks to all the
>helpful advice and suggestions I received here, it went off well.
>
>I fed her just before leaving, left her enough wet and dry foods, fresh
>water, fresh litter, some lights on, shades open, lots of bags and
>boxes anjd crumpled newpapers scattered around the floor, radio on but
>tv off. Some of these pointers I got right here.
>
>I was gone almost 24 hours. When I returned, she seemed a little
>anxious but not particularly so and, despite my fears, didn't even seem
>angry. :)
>
>So, thanks again.
>
>
>RPSinha > wrote:
>
>: As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
>: year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
>: inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
>: know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
>: each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
>: her mood.
>:
>: Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>:
>: We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
>: this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
>: being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
>: is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>:
>: We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
>: favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
>: fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
>: she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>:
>: Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
>: windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
>: be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
>: a few?
>:
>: TIA!
>:
>: (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
>: probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
>: outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
>: little later.)

David[_2_]
January 7th 08, 12:20 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

Sad story with a happy ending- did the abuser get charged?

> So, I think the question is this. If you let your own cat run free would
> you feel ok if someone picked up your cat, threw them in the trash and
> then didn't tell you about it?

I would feel that they shold be charged with cruelty to animals.

> How also would you feel if your cat was found dead after it sufficated
> because more trash was piled on top of them as they meowed and cried for
> help but nobody did anything to stop it.

Probably similar to how I would feel if it died in any sort of accident, at
home or not. The thought of the cat stuck in a burning house is just as
devastating to me.

> The mother cat and her kittens were lucky but this could;ve been the
> scenario that played out if another resident hadn't heard there cries and
> crawled into the dumpster to get them out. This also happened in a bad
> part of town but still scenarios like this can happen even in the best of
> neighborhoods as animal abuse knows no bounds.

Animal abuse is wrong and I do not support it.

> You can argue how it's ok to let them out all you want but that means you
> also give permission to someone to possibly abuse or kill them.

Animal abuse is illegal in my state, what state do you live in?

If I decided to allow my cat to leave my apartment I would not be giving
anyone persmission to do anything to him. Why would you think such a thing?

Sure, it opens up the possibility that someone COULD do something to him.
Re-read the last three sentences of the post you responded to and respond to
those if you have not realized your error.

>Would you feel ok if that happens?

What do you think?

David[_2_]
January 7th 08, 12:56 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...

> Cats that are indoor only will live much longer than those that spend
> their times outdoors.

What are the actual statistics that you are referencing?

Was the analysis performed by a neutral party?

What's the margin of error on these statistics?

What steps were taken to ensure there was no sample bias?

How did the statistics differ when you compare the area that Ivor lives in
with your own area?

If you can't answer these questions your statistics are not very useful in
this discussion.

> My brother and sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they still
> ended up saving a cat that was wounded because his previous human allowed
> his cat not only to roam but also because he didn't want to pay the vet
> bill.

What does not paying a vet bill have to do with this discussion?

The cat was wounded from roaming alone? What is this condition called?
Spontaneous roaming injury syndrome? Usually attacks or accidents are
involved.

> Regardless of where you live, in every country in this world there are
> people that if they had the chance could cause harm to your cat.

Should we "simply" not own cats in order to ensure that those people never
find the cat? Regardless of what you do, it is always possible that a cat
will be abused. This is unfortunate but place blame accordingly.

> Animal abuse has no boundaries and if you run the risk of allowing your
> cat to roam outside then you knowingly put them in danger that they don't
> need to be in.

Do you suggest that people strip their homes of utilities to prevent the
cats from being in danger that they don't need to be in? I'll say what I
said before- everyone is always in danger. It's an unfortunate but true
part of life.

How many cats died during Katrina and the various major earthquakes that hit
California? How many of these cats would have lived longer lives if they
had never been constrained to the indoors in the first place? Of course you
can't answer that question and obviously SOME of them would have died from
being outdoors but the point is that no matter what we do, unfortunate
events happen.

> Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat that they let roam free.
> Little did they realize that one day they found their cat had been
> beheaded and her body thrown into their yard. After that they definately
> had a tighter grip on their cats and kept them as indoor only. All it took
> was one incident for them to learn that you need to keep your cats
> indoors.

Why didn't they move to an area safer for cats? They should have researched
thousands of areas to find a place similar to where Ivor lives, in my
opinion. How can they live with themselves knowing that such a notorious
animal abuser is near by? Animal abusers CAN break into homes, do they know
this? Do these people care about their cats at all? They sound downright
evil and you call them your friends? </sarcasm>

See Cat, all of us can blame the good guys. You might respond to my
statements above by saying "well, the chances of someone breaking into their
home and abusing their cats are very slim." If you did, I would agree with
you and I would point out to you that you sound EXACTLY like Ivor.

If only all of us could live in areas that are as cat friendly as Ivor's!
He's not using statistics, he's giving you raw data. Why don't you
acknowledge it? Forty years of outdoor cats living from 16-18 years old with
no deaths as a result of outdoor living. That is awesome! My first cat
almost died before his first birthday because of an INDOOR accident.

Dave

David[_2_]
January 7th 08, 01:01 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still
>> go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside.
>>
>> As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple fact
>> of the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just like us.
>>
>> My two cents.
>>
>> David
>
> Yes. One of the things I don't have to worry about is any of my cats being
> trapped in the house in a fire. They all know how to skeedaddle out
> through the cat doors in a hurry when they want to, or have to.

Cool, that would give you the necessary time to save any babies that happen
to be sitting around ;).

PET ADMIN
January 8th 08, 12:42 AM
On Dec 27 2007, 10:06 pm, RPSinha > wrote:
> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1
> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came
> inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't
> know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times
> each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and
> her mood.
>
> Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with.
>
> We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that
> this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to
> being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone
> is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump.
>
> We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her
> favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that,
> fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her,
> she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful).
>
> Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the
> windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will
> be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just
> a few?
>
> TIA!
>
> (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so
> probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left
> outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a
> little later.)

I think they will love it. The big problem is when they are alone
without a companion. They might love having run of the house. Any
ideas you get When you get some great ideas that work, put them on
www.petadministration.com. I think our users would enjoy it as well.

William Graham
January 9th 08, 08:33 AM
"David" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
> Sad story with a happy ending- did the abuser get charged?
>
>> So, I think the question is this. If you let your own cat run free would
>> you feel ok if someone picked up your cat, threw them in the trash and
>> then didn't tell you about it?
>
> I would feel that they shold be charged with cruelty to animals.
>
>> How also would you feel if your cat was found dead after it sufficated
>> because more trash was piled on top of them as they meowed and cried for
>> help but nobody did anything to stop it.
>
> Probably similar to how I would feel if it died in any sort of accident,
> at home or not. The thought of the cat stuck in a burning house is just
> as devastating to me.
>
>> The mother cat and her kittens were lucky but this could;ve been the
>> scenario that played out if another resident hadn't heard there cries and
>> crawled into the dumpster to get them out. This also happened in a bad
>> part of town but still scenarios like this can happen even in the best of
>> neighborhoods as animal abuse knows no bounds.
>
> Animal abuse is wrong and I do not support it.
>
>> You can argue how it's ok to let them out all you want but that means you
>> also give permission to someone to possibly abuse or kill them.
>
> Animal abuse is illegal in my state, what state do you live in?
>
> If I decided to allow my cat to leave my apartment I would not be giving
> anyone persmission to do anything to him. Why would you think such a
> thing?
>
> Sure, it opens up the possibility that someone COULD do something to him.
> Re-read the last three sentences of the post you responded to and respond
> to those if you have not realized your error.
>
>>Would you feel ok if that happens?
>
> What do you think?
>
>
It's a dangerous world. Everyone who is born into it eventually dies. You
can spend your whole life crouched in a padded cell surrounded by a bubble
to keep out germs and you might live, on the average, a few years more than
the average person does. But would you call that living? If not, then why
would you choose that kind of life for your cat?
What? - You say that living in a nice apartment in the city is not the same
thing as a padded cell. - Perhaps not, but exactly where do you draw the
line? There are some people who spend their whole lives risking death. They
climb mountains, fly jet planes, deep sea dive over a hundred feet below the
surface, and etc, and etc. And then there are others who do live in a
virtual padded cell. I believe everyone has the right to make the decision
for themselves as to what kind of life style they want to live, and how they
want to die. That is why I am against seat belt and helmet laws, but that's
another story. Right now, I am arguing for my cats. They too, have the
right, in my opinion, to stay inside, on my couch, (or wherever) or, to go
outside and risk their lives in the big world. Try to remember that you only
live once, and for a damn short time at that, but death is forever. The
universe has been here for billions of years before me and my cats were
born, and it will be here for an awful long time after we are all dead. Our
forefathers died for their (and our) freedom. We might as well enjoy it now
that they paid such a high price for it. And, I think that I will let my
cats enjoy a little of it too.

William Graham
January 9th 08, 08:38 AM
"David" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "David" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>
>>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still
>>> go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside.
>>>
>>> As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple fact
>>> of the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just like us.
>>>
>>> My two cents.
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> Yes. One of the things I don't have to worry about is any of my cats
>> being trapped in the house in a fire. They all know how to skeedaddle out
>> through the cat doors in a hurry when they want to, or have to.
>
> Cool, that would give you the necessary time to save any babies that
> happen to be sitting around ;).
>
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. I don't generally leave my
babies in the house when I am gone, unless there is some responsible person
there with them. But I can't take my four cats with me wherever I go, so I
leave them with two cat doors, leading to the front yard and the back yard.
I can only hope they will be smart enough to leave through them if they need
to.

Ivor Jones[_2_]
January 9th 08, 06:45 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message


[snip]

: : Right now, I am arguing for my
: : cats. They too, have the right, in my opinion, to stay
: : inside, on my couch, (or wherever) or, to go outside
: : and risk their lives in the big world. Try to remember
: : that you only live once, and for a damn short time at
: : that, but death is forever. The universe has been here
: : for billions of years before me and my cats were born,
: : and it will be here for an awful long time after we are
: : all dead. Our forefathers died for their (and our)
: : freedom. We might as well enjoy it now that they paid
: : such a high price for it. And, I think that I will let
: : my cats enjoy a little of it too.

Well said, sir.


Ivor

David[_2_]
January 10th 08, 04:20 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "David" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>>
>>>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still
>>>> go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside.
>>>>
>>>> As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple
>>>> fact of the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just like
>>>> us.
>>>>
>>>> My two cents.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>
>>> Yes. One of the things I don't have to worry about is any of my cats
>>> being trapped in the house in a fire. They all know how to skeedaddle
>>> out through the cat doors in a hurry when they want to, or have to.
>>
>> Cool, that would give you the necessary time to save any babies that
>> happen to be sitting around ;).
>>
> I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. I don't generally leave my
> babies in the house when I am gone, unless there is some responsible
> person there with them. But I can't take my four cats with me wherever I
> go, so I leave them with two cat doors, leading to the front yard and the
> back yard. I can only hope they will be smart enough to leave through them
> if they need to.

William,

I was referring to our abortion argument and our disagreements on human
life. Not trying to re-start it, just poking some fun at it.

William Graham
January 11th 08, 03:08 AM
"David" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "David" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>
>>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "David" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>>
>>>>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us)
>>>>> still go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go
>>>>> outside.
>>>>>
>>>>> As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple
>>>>> fact of the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just
>>>>> like us.
>>>>>
>>>>> My two cents.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Yes. One of the things I don't have to worry about is any of my cats
>>>> being trapped in the house in a fire. They all know how to skeedaddle
>>>> out through the cat doors in a hurry when they want to, or have to.
>>>
>>> Cool, that would give you the necessary time to save any babies that
>>> happen to be sitting around ;).
>>>
>> I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. I don't generally leave my
>> babies in the house when I am gone, unless there is some responsible
>> person there with them. But I can't take my four cats with me wherever I
>> go, so I leave them with two cat doors, leading to the front yard and the
>> back yard. I can only hope they will be smart enough to leave through
>> them if they need to.
>
> William,
>
> I was referring to our abortion argument and our disagreements on human
> life. Not trying to re-start it, just poking some fun at it.
>
>
>
Ah! - I understand. My position on abortion is fairly simple. Somewhere
between conception and about 18 years after birth, a human being gets the
constitutional right to life. Exactly where this is should be determined by
the courts. I am willing to accept their decision, whatever it happens to
be, because I have ho religion, and therefore no ax to grind....Roe Vs. Wade
set that point at the first trimester after conception. That sits well with
me, but hey, I am totally open to argument......

January 11th 08, 05:00 AM
On Dec 30 2007, 5:59*pm, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem
> >> to have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your
> >> area happens everywhere.
>
> >> : : That's weird since they exist in every country
> >> : : in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere in the
> >> : : world and it only takes once incident. It happens no
> >> : : matter whether you live in the city or in the country,
> >> : : it happens. You can also prevent your own cat from
> >> : : falling victim by keeping them indoors.
>
> >> People jump off roofs everywhere too. But it's never happened here and I
> >> don't think that banning ladders is going to happen any time soon.
>
> >> : : The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal
> >> : : rescue group would manipulate them. Almost every animal
> >> : : rescue group out there will tell you that a cat living
> >> : : indoors has a much longer life than one that lives
> >> : : outdoors. You seem to keep stating that it's unlikely
> >> : : to happen you'll ever encounter animal cruelty but what
> >> : : happens if it does. A lot of people seem to go out into
> >> : : the world claiming they'd never fall victim to a crime
> >> : : and that it always happens to someone else and then
> >> : : when they are the victim that's the only time they'll
> >> : : act.
>
> >> I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we
> >> have seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in.
>
> >> : : Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong
> >> : : their life and will prevent them from falling victim to
> >> : : animal cruelty, getting hit by cars, getting in fights
> >> : : with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next
> >> : : meal.
>
> >> Bottom line - my cats have been free to go outside for 40 years and not
> >> one of them has ever died other than from natural causes at a ripe old
> >> age. Nor have any of the cats of my neighbours.
>
> >> I really do think we can leave it there, we're never going to agree and
> >> my cats will always be free to roam. I'm sorry for the problems in your
> >> area but theř're your problems not mine.
>
> >> Ivor
>
> > Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics
> > from animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of
> > your cat ever falling victim to any kind of bad stuff is rare. You claim
> > to volunteer for a cat rescue which you say has already seen cases of
> > animal abuse so isn't that enough to convince you to keep your cats
> > indoors or are you planning to be one of those people who won't act to
> > protect your cat until it's too late?
>
> > It's obvious from your responses that you really don't care about whether
> > or not your cats fall victim to animal abuse. I feel really sorry for your
> > cats because it'd be shame if something happened to them because you chose
> > to be stubborn. I'll say it one more time, animal abuse happens everywhere
> > and you knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It
> > only takes one time for them to become victims of animal abuse.
>
> Being trapped in a burning house with no way to escape is pretty abusive
> too. There is a solution, of course.....If you have a lot of property, you
> can fence it in with a cat-proof fence, and let your cats roam on it, or
> come indoors as they please. Or, if you are wealthy enough to live in a
> closed off neighborhood, where you know all the neighbors, you can let your
> cats roam free there. Where I live is almost that good....All my neighbors
> know and like all my cats.....One of them used to live in the house across
> the street from me. She moved in with us when they got a dog, and she
> detested the dog. I can't conceive of keeping my cats locked up in the
> house....Being outdoors is an integral part of their life. They like to go
> to the mailbox and wait there to greet all the neighbors when they come to
> pick up their mail.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It is difficult trying to do the best by your cats. My cats have
always been indoor cats only being outside, during the day, when I am
home. They were taught to only "wander" in their own yard, which
surprising they did. My front yard had a lot of trees and things for
them to play with so they didn't venture past the driveway or into
neighbours yards. My cat loved to lay on the drive, in the sun, and
one day a neighbour decided to drive into ( on my property) my carport
so he could turn his vehicle around. He ran over my cat. She didn't
die at that time but a day later after surgery and it really broke my
heart. She was a lovely cat and I was very attached to her and was
very angry with my neighbour who had been constantly told not to use
my drive as a "turning bay". It took a long time to "get over" loosing
her but I subsequently got another cat who had been mistreated, had
"social" issues and was about to be put down by the vet. She still has
"issues" but she is a very sweet cat who is comfortable with me and
loves her "brother" Max who is the direct opposite in nature. He is
the extrovert of all extroverts. They are both kept inside all the
time but they I have a balcony which they can sit on and watch what
goes on in the world. I always worry about fire with them being inside
but I do leave the balcony door open ( it has a security guard on it
but the cats can fit through) so they have an escape route if there is
a fire. Cats are great and can be trained to do things if you make
the effort. Max knows what he is allowed to do and what not to do. He
only answers to his name and really appears to understand what I tell
him. ( He shakes paws, sits etc.) he is Mr personality plus and
everyone, even people who dont like cats love him. I hate not letting
him out because he enjoys rolling on the grass but I don't want to
take the risk any more.

William Graham
January 11th 08, 07:03 AM
> wrote in message
...
On Dec 30 2007, 5:59 pm, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > "Ivor Jones" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem
> >> to have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in
> >> your
> >> area happens everywhere.
>
> >> : : That's weird since they exist in every country
> >> : : in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere in the
> >> : : world and it only takes once incident. It happens no
> >> : : matter whether you live in the city or in the country,
> >> : : it happens. You can also prevent your own cat from
> >> : : falling victim by keeping them indoors.
>
> >> People jump off roofs everywhere too. But it's never happened here and
> >> I
> >> don't think that banning ladders is going to happen any time soon.
>
> >> : : The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal
> >> : : rescue group would manipulate them. Almost every animal
> >> : : rescue group out there will tell you that a cat living
> >> : : indoors has a much longer life than one that lives
> >> : : outdoors. You seem to keep stating that it's unlikely
> >> : : to happen you'll ever encounter animal cruelty but what
> >> : : happens if it does. A lot of people seem to go out into
> >> : : the world claiming they'd never fall victim to a crime
> >> : : and that it always happens to someone else and then
> >> : : when they are the victim that's the only time they'll
> >> : : act.
>
> >> I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we
> >> have seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in.
>
> >> : : Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong
> >> : : their life and will prevent them from falling victim to
> >> : : animal cruelty, getting hit by cars, getting in fights
> >> : : with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next
> >> : : meal.
>
> >> Bottom line - my cats have been free to go outside for 40 years and not
> >> one of them has ever died other than from natural causes at a ripe old
> >> age. Nor have any of the cats of my neighbours.
>
> >> I really do think we can leave it there, we're never going to agree and
> >> my cats will always be free to roam. I'm sorry for the problems in your
> >> area but theř're your problems not mine.
>
> >> Ivor
>
> > Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics
> > from animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of
> > your cat ever falling victim to any kind of bad stuff is rare. You claim
> > to volunteer for a cat rescue which you say has already seen cases of
> > animal abuse so isn't that enough to convince you to keep your cats
> > indoors or are you planning to be one of those people who won't act to
> > protect your cat until it's too late?
>
> > It's obvious from your responses that you really don't care about
> > whether
> > or not your cats fall victim to animal abuse. I feel really sorry for
> > your
> > cats because it'd be shame if something happened to them because you
> > chose
> > to be stubborn. I'll say it one more time, animal abuse happens
> > everywhere
> > and you knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It
> > only takes one time for them to become victims of animal abuse.
>
> Being trapped in a burning house with no way to escape is pretty abusive
> too. There is a solution, of course.....If you have a lot of property, you
> can fence it in with a cat-proof fence, and let your cats roam on it, or
> come indoors as they please. Or, if you are wealthy enough to live in a
> closed off neighborhood, where you know all the neighbors, you can let
> your
> cats roam free there. Where I live is almost that good....All my neighbors
> know and like all my cats.....One of them used to live in the house across
> the street from me. She moved in with us when they got a dog, and she
> detested the dog. I can't conceive of keeping my cats locked up in the
> house....Being outdoors is an integral part of their life. They like to go
> to the mailbox and wait there to greet all the neighbors when they come to
> pick up their mail.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It is difficult trying to do the best by your cats. My cats have
always been indoor cats only being outside, during the day, when I am
home. They were taught to only "wander" in their own yard, which
surprising they did. My front yard had a lot of trees and things for
them to play with so they didn't venture past the driveway or into
neighbours yards. My cat loved to lay on the drive, in the sun, and
one day a neighbour decided to drive into ( on my property) my carport
so he could turn his vehicle around. He ran over my cat. She didn't
die at that time but a day later after surgery and it really broke my
heart. She was a lovely cat and I was very attached to her and was
very angry with my neighbour who had been constantly told not to use
my drive as a "turning bay". It took a long time to "get over" loosing
her but I subsequently got another cat who had been mistreated, had
"social" issues and was about to be put down by the vet. She still has
"issues" but she is a very sweet cat who is comfortable with me and
loves her "brother" Max who is the direct opposite in nature. He is
the extrovert of all extroverts. They are both kept inside all the
time but they I have a balcony which they can sit on and watch what
goes on in the world. I always worry about fire with them being inside
but I do leave the balcony door open ( it has a security guard on it
but the cats can fit through) so they have an escape route if there is
a fire. Cats are great and can be trained to do things if you make
the effort. Max knows what he is allowed to do and what not to do. He
only answers to his name and really appears to understand what I tell
him. ( He shakes paws, sits etc.) he is Mr personality plus and
everyone, even people who dont like cats love him. I hate not letting
him out because he enjoys rolling on the grass but I don't want to
take the risk any more.

As long as it's your choice, you should do what you are comfortable with. I
certainly would never make a law that insists that you allow you cats to
roam outside.
But, by the same token, you shouldn't make any laws that insist that I keep
my cats inside. Unfortunately, the world is full of people who call
themselves "liberals" who want to do just that. i.e.: Make laws that force
the rest of the world to do what they want to do. Their attitude is, "If I
do it, then it must be right, and therefore everyone should do it, and so I
want a law that forces everyone to do it."

G Hardy
January 11th 08, 10:50 AM
"William Graham" wrote...

> It is difficult trying to do the best by your cats...

> ...I hate not letting
> him out because he enjoys rolling on the grass but I don't want to
> take the risk any more.

Three of our cats love playing in a nearby field. The problem is, they have
to cross a road which is the single access point for an estate of 116
households. I've no doubt about the risks (we've spent ú550 on one of them
who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated, happy
life than a long life imprisoned.

Upscale
January 11th 08, 12:17 PM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message
> who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated,
happy
> life than a long life imprisoned.

Short-sighted view. Who is to say that any indoor only cat is leading an
unhappy life? My Deetoo is an indoor only cat (apartment) and while she
likes to look out the window wonder what's going on out there, I *know*
she's a happy, well adjusted cat. If the need to get outside and experience
everything was of such paramount importance to the well being cats, when
they went out, they'd never come back because there would always be
something new to see and experience.

Cats adjust well to any nurturing environment. If it's an indoor only
location where they're fed well, cared for, get exercise and do all the
things that cats do, it's all they need either emotionally or physically. To
categorically state that a cat needs to get outside frequently for some
emotional benefit is a flawed argument and a complete fallacy.

G Hardy
January 11th 08, 01:56 PM
"Upscale" wrote...
>
> "G Hardy" > wrote in message
>> who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated,
> happy
>> life than a long life imprisoned.
>
> Short-sighted view.

Not at all. We have two cats that are quite happy living the indoor life.
The other three are desperate to get out every morning - sometimes to the
extent that they'll go out for half an hour before they've even had
breakfast. It's rare (they know that if they aren't there when the food goes
down and one of the others eats it, that's their lot 'til teatime) but it
happens - the last time was actually this morning.

You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong. I
think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel.

Upscale
January 11th 08, 05:40 PM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message >
> You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong.
I
> think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel.

Maybe you're right. It is cruel to prevent a cat from chewing the electrical
wires to the appliances in your home. It's cruel to stop them from jumping
on the table when you're eating and stealing those shrimp you're eating.
Hell, let's go whole hog. Stop putting the trash can lid on the garbage cans
because your cat likes to play with it. When there's a hot burner on the
stove boiling water, let the cat jump on the stove to see what's going on.

How many other cruel things should we stop our cats from doing? You've
convinced me. Next time my cat wants to go out and play on the railing of my
seventh floor balcony, I'll not only help it to get out there, I'll lift it
up and put it on the 1" wide railing. Every damned dangerous thing my cat
wants to do, I'll let it.

I guess the thousands of years that the expression "curiosity killed the
cat" came into being have been just delusions on the part of humans. Excuse
me now, I have to go help my cat do something else that's inherently
dangerous just so it can have the freedom to do what it wants.

~ because it wants to.

G Hardy
January 11th 08, 07:49 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "G Hardy" > wrote in message >
>> You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong.
> I
>> think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel.
>
> Maybe you're right. It is cruel to prevent a cat from chewing the
> electrical
> wires to the appliances in your home...

Our cats don't do that. Perhaps if you let yours out, she wouldn't be so
bored that chewing cables is "fun".


> ...It's cruel to stop them from jumping
> on the table when you're eating and stealing those shrimp you're eating.

Ours don't do that, either. Perhaps if you fed yours properly, she wouldn't
try. Or perhaps because we have several cats, they know that stealing each
others' food usually earns a set of claws across the face.


> Hell, let's go whole hog. Stop putting the trash can lid on the garbage
> cans
> because your cat likes to play with it. When there's a hot burner on the
> stove boiling water, let the cat jump on the stove to see what's going on.

Yet again, our cats don't do that. I think their curiosity is sated by being
allowed out. You're not actually doing your argument any favours by spouting
all this rubbish. The worst thing our cats do in the kitchen is jump onto
one of the counters that has a radiator (room heater) underneath. We know
they do it, they'd do it even if we weren't there if we tried to train them
not to do it, so we just adjust our own behaviour and avoid preparing food
on that counter.


> How many other cruel things should we stop our cats from doing? You've
> convinced me. Next time my cat wants to go out and play on the railing of
> my
> seventh floor balcony, I'll not only help it to get out there, I'll lift
> it
> up and put it on the 1" wide railing. Every damned dangerous thing my cat
> wants to do, I'll let it.

Well that's your stupid fault for having a pet cat in an unsuitable
environment (in my own, humble opinion of course). The thing is, you live in
the land where most cat owners find it acceptable to remove their cat's
claws. In this country, that's largely deemed to br cruel, so (although I
know your cat still has her claws) I'm not actually expecting any convincing
argument from you.

OK so we've got some plucked carpets, and they have the "tools" to break
through my pizza wrapping and eat all the chicken from it, but those things
are just objects. The cats are part of the family (and the pizza thing was
pretty funny at the time).


> I guess the thousands of years that the expression "curiosity killed the
> cat" came into being have been just delusions on the part of humans.
> Excuse
> me now, I have to go help my cat do something else that's inherently
> dangerous just so it can have the freedom to do what it wants.

If you have to help the cat, then you've plainly missed the point.

Ours don't even climb the Christmas tree - if they want to explore or hunt
or play or whatever - they just go outside. If they want to sleep, eat or
have a cuddle, they come in. It's that simple.

Well almost. Despite having acres of countryside to choose from, they still
come in if they need a cr*p.

William Graham
January 11th 08, 10:40 PM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message
...
> "William Graham" wrote...
>
>> It is difficult trying to do the best by your cats...
>
>> ...I hate not letting
>> him out because he enjoys rolling on the grass but I don't want to
>> take the risk any more.
>
> Three of our cats love playing in a nearby field. The problem is, they
> have to cross a road which is the single access point for an estate of 116
> households. I've no doubt about the risks (we've spent ú550 on one of them
> who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated,
> happy life than a long life imprisoned.
Yes.....I know what you mean. When I lived by a busy intersection in Menlo
Park, California, I didn't encourage cats to live with me as I do now, but I
would still acquire one now and then.....They were neighborhood strays that
just liked the smell of my house. I am happier now that I live where they
are quite safe, and I don't have to worry about them. I picked up my most
recent one from a parking lot on a busy commercial street....He is much
safer living here with me, but there are dangers that I can't control even
here....The world, in general, is a dangerous place.

William Graham
January 11th 08, 10:43 PM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message
...
> "Upscale" wrote...
>>
>> "G Hardy" > wrote in message
>>> who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated,
>> happy
>>> life than a long life imprisoned.
>>
>> Short-sighted view.
>
> Not at all. We have two cats that are quite happy living the indoor life.
> The other three are desperate to get out every morning - sometimes to the
> extent that they'll go out for half an hour before they've even had
> breakfast. It's rare (they know that if they aren't there when the food
> goes down and one of the others eats it, that's their lot 'til teatime)
> but it happens - the last time was actually this morning.
>
> You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong.
> I think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel.
>
>
I have found that if you get a cat neutered, It will stay very close to your
house, and seldom leave the property, even if it is an outside cat. My cats
did their wandering during the first couple of years, and now they are quite
content to stick close to the house, where their food and preferred sleeping
quarters are.

William Graham
January 11th 08, 10:50 PM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message
...
> "Upscale" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "G Hardy" > wrote in message >
>>> You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're
>>> wrong.
>> I
>>> think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel.
>>
>> Maybe you're right. It is cruel to prevent a cat from chewing the
>> electrical
>> wires to the appliances in your home...
>
> Our cats don't do that. Perhaps if you let yours out, she wouldn't be so
> bored that chewing cables is "fun".
>
>
>> ...It's cruel to stop them from jumping
>> on the table when you're eating and stealing those shrimp you're eating.
>
> Ours don't do that, either. Perhaps if you fed yours properly, she
> wouldn't try. Or perhaps because we have several cats, they know that
> stealing each others' food usually earns a set of claws across the face.
>
>
>> Hell, let's go whole hog. Stop putting the trash can lid on the garbage
>> cans
>> because your cat likes to play with it. When there's a hot burner on the
>> stove boiling water, let the cat jump on the stove to see what's going
>> on.
>
> Yet again, our cats don't do that. I think their curiosity is sated by
> being allowed out. You're not actually doing your argument any favours by
> spouting all this rubbish. The worst thing our cats do in the kitchen is
> jump onto one of the counters that has a radiator (room heater)
> underneath. We know they do it, they'd do it even if we weren't there if
> we tried to train them not to do it, so we just adjust our own behaviour
> and avoid preparing food on that counter.
>
>
>> How many other cruel things should we stop our cats from doing? You've
>> convinced me. Next time my cat wants to go out and play on the railing of
>> my
>> seventh floor balcony, I'll not only help it to get out there, I'll lift
>> it
>> up and put it on the 1" wide railing. Every damned dangerous thing my cat
>> wants to do, I'll let it.
>
> Well that's your stupid fault for having a pet cat in an unsuitable
> environment (in my own, humble opinion of course). The thing is, you live
> in the land where most cat owners find it acceptable to remove their cat's
> claws. In this country, that's largely deemed to br cruel, so (although I
> know your cat still has her claws) I'm not actually expecting any
> convincing argument from you.
>
> OK so we've got some plucked carpets, and they have the "tools" to break
> through my pizza wrapping and eat all the chicken from it, but those
> things are just objects. The cats are part of the family (and the pizza
> thing was pretty funny at the time).
>
>
>> I guess the thousands of years that the expression "curiosity killed the
>> cat" came into being have been just delusions on the part of humans.
>> Excuse
>> me now, I have to go help my cat do something else that's inherently
>> dangerous just so it can have the freedom to do what it wants.
>
> If you have to help the cat, then you've plainly missed the point.
>
> Ours don't even climb the Christmas tree - if they want to explore or hunt
> or play or whatever - they just go outside. If they want to sleep, eat or
> have a cuddle, they come in. It's that simple.
>
> Well almost. Despite having acres of countryside to choose from, they
> still come in if they need a cr*p.
With two of mine, their preferred way to eat is to break into a bag of
kibbles and spill it all over the kitchen floor to eat it.....It doesn't
bother me, so why not? If cats did a bunch of stuff that I didn't like, then
I wouldn't like cats, and probably wouldn't have any. But the fact is, I
like cats, and I like their habits, including their tendency to sharpen
their claws on my furniture, hop on the table while we are eating, and spill
kibbles all over the kitchen floor.

G Hardy
January 12th 08, 12:53 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..

> I have found that if you get a cat neutered, It will stay very close to
> your house, and seldom leave the property, even if it is an outside cat.
> My cats did their wandering during the first couple of years, and now they
> are quite content to stick close to the house, where their food and
> preferred sleeping quarters are.

I've found no difference in their tendency to wander. I think males range
further if they are "entire" but that's about it (and it's guesswork based
on how long it takes for them to come home when called).

The biggest difference from neutering was from our older, already-neutered
male. He began spraying a few weeks after the kittens were born, and stopped
a week or two after they had been neutered.

G Hardy
January 12th 08, 01:02 AM
"William Graham" wrote...

> ...The world, in general, is a dangerous place.

I know "upscale" has good intentions, but if you smother all your loved ones
in bubble wrap and don't let them experience danger, pain and injury every
once in a while - how do they learn? One of our cats, Sparky, broke her leg
which could have been a car accident or a poorly judged jump from an
upstairs window. Either way, she's obviously thankful that we had it fixed
(she's very loving, now) but we don't stop her from going out.

It's even more applicable to cats as they are far more resilient than kids.
My 8-year-old son crosses the road outside school by himself. One of his
friends has the decision to cross made for him by his mum, who tugs him back
by his collar whenever a car is coming. Guess who I think has the better
odds of survival...?

Upscale
January 12th 08, 01:27 AM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message
>
> I know "upscale" has good intentions, but if you smother all your loved
ones
> in bubble wrap and don't let them experience danger, pain and injury every

You're kind of slow aren't you? The examples I gave you of things that could
happen, were just examples, not a recitation of specific happenings. Cats
can and do get into everything that they can reach. Your lame response to my
examples was that you've trained your cats not to do those things. The
advantage to humans having a bigger brain than cats, (although I'm not too
sure about you) is that we can foresee certain instances when it's advisable
not to let a cat do what it wants when it wants. That doesn't mean that you
lock it up 24 hours a day, just that there's times when one wants to take
precautions. If you can't see that then you really are lacking a sizable
amount of intelligence.

G Hardy
January 12th 08, 01:34 PM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...

> Not everyone has the money to have injuries fixed that are due to
> injuries caused by outdoor dangers. Some will just have them PTS or
> let them suffer and [hopefully] heal without pain killers or surgery.
> That is negligence. Do you agree?

No

If you don't have the means to fix cats' injuries, you shouldn't have them
as pets. Imprisoning them is not (in my opinion) a solution to the problem.

If you can afford to feed a cat, you can afford to insure its healthcare.

G Hardy
January 12th 08, 01:36 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...

> You're kind of slow aren't you? The examples I gave you of things that
> could
> happen, were just examples, not a recitation of specific happenings.

You didn't specify that.

Your cat could choke on cat biscuits - so just give her meat.

dipstick.

Upscale
January 12th 08, 07:18 PM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message >
> Imprisoning them is not (in my opinion) a solution to the problem.

Who the hell are you to say that having a cat in an apartment is
imprisonment? Where would you suggest the millions and millions of apartment
dwelling cats go? If those cats weren't in the loving homes of people living
in apartments, they'd be euthanized because there would be no place for them
to go. Is that your solution, better to kill all those innocent animals
because society can't conform to your opinion of total freedom? You really
are that unthinking aren't you?

There's always one of you assholes running around spouting off your
bull****. Pity any children you might have now or in the future and your
warped sense of values passed onto them by your ignorance.

Upscale
January 12th 08, 07:47 PM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
> can't debate anything with them for they are right no matter what. Why
even
> bother we know the truth as do others why waste your time.

You're right of course. In this case it's my believing that if I didn't at
least try to change some perceived wrong, then I'm almost as culpable as
they are for letting it continue on unabated without response.

> You can't win this debate it always boils down to name calling and total
bull****

And that's one of my weaknesses, letting myself sink in the morass of name
calling. I think I must get some kind of perverse pleasure out of it. :)

G Hardy
January 12th 08, 11:19 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "G Hardy" > wrote in message >
>> Imprisoning them is not (in my opinion) a solution to the problem.
>
> Who the hell are you to say that having a cat in an apartment is
> imprisonment? Where would you suggest the millions and millions of
> apartment
> dwelling cats go? If those cats weren't in the loving homes of people
> living
> in apartments, they'd be euthanized because there would be no place for
> them
> to go. Is that your solution, better to kill all those innocent animals
> because society can't conform to your opinion of total freedom? You really
> are that unthinking aren't you?

The answer is not to have got a cat in the first place. I do think it's
imprisonment. It's my opinion, yours is different. Get over it.


> There's always one of you assholes running around spouting off your
> bull****.

For future reference, you can always tell you've lost an internet
disagreement when you have to resort to personal abuse.

G Hardy
January 12th 08, 11:21 PM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
...

> You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate
> change sides nope it does not happen

I've been known to change my opinion when an argument is made that makes
more sense than mine.

Upscale
January 13th 08, 06:11 AM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message
>
> The answer is not to have got a cat in the first place. I do think it's
> imprisonment. It's my opinion, yours is different.

The difference is that your opinion is based solely on emotion, mine is
based on logic. Cats are euthanized in many animal shelters all the time.
They're held for a certain period and if they're not adopted, they get put
down.

So your opinion is that it's better that cats are put to death instead of
going to someone who might live in an apartment.

How do you justify that opinion?

William Graham
January 13th 08, 07:09 AM
"G Hardy" > wrote in message
...
> "Matthew" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate
>> change sides nope it does not happen
>
> I've been known to change my opinion when an argument is made that makes
> more sense than mine.

I would too, but there has never been any......

(just kidding)

G Hardy
January 13th 08, 09:34 PM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
...
>
> "G Hardy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Matthew" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate
>>> change sides nope it does not happen
>>
>> I've been known to change my opinion when an argument is made that makes
>> more sense than mine.
>
> A debate and a argument are different

I don't understand your point. A debate is a series of arguments. Upscale &
I have been exchanging arguments in the debate of whether it's cruel to keep
cats indoors. His latest about rescue cats is the best argument from his
side so far (again, in my opinion) but as you'll see from my reply, it's not
convinced me to change my opinion.

G Hardy
January 13th 08, 09:38 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "G Hardy" > wrote in message
>>
>> The answer is not to have got a cat in the first place. I do think it's
>> imprisonment. It's my opinion, yours is different.
>
> The difference is that your opinion is based solely on emotion, mine is
> based on logic. Cats are euthanized in many animal shelters all the time.
> They're held for a certain period and if they're not adopted, they get put
> down.
>
> So your opinion is that it's better that cats are put to death instead of
> going to someone who might live in an apartment.
>
> How do you justify that opinion?

I'm not sure that I have to. It's still cruel, but (as you say) it's better
than being dead.

The argument is something akin to suggesting that it's OK to keep Siberian
tigers in zoos, because they are almost extinct in the wild. Not sure about
the US, but here in the UK zoos and circuses are very much berated because
normally free-roaming animals go mad when confined. So for lions, camels,
elephant, giraffe etc it's cruel to confine them. For endangered animals
there are mitigating reasons for keeping them. It's still cruel, but it's a
lot better than being extinct.


Are you suggesting that apartment cats are EXCLUSIVELY rescue cats? If
that's the case then you've got a good point (if not quite a winning one).
I'd certainly agree that being cooped up in an apartment all day is better
than a one-way trip to the vet.

If the proportion of rescue cats versus non-rescue cats in apartments is the
same as rescue cats versus non-rescue cats in unrestricted accommodation,
and I see no reason why that shouldn't be the case, then your argument falls
flat.

David[_2_]
January 19th 08, 04:10 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>
>>> "David" > wrote in message
>>>> William, I would appreciate it if you consider this hypothetical
>>>> situation for me and tell me how you would react in it.
>>>>
>>>> Let's say that you own 10 cats and are forced to move to a very busy
>>>> city. Your home is several thousand square feet with all sorts of room
>>>> for the animals (remember, we're talking hypothetical).
>>>>
>>>> You allow your cats to roam outdoors. The first night that you live
>>>> there, one of your cats is splattered on the road and another makes it
>>>> back into your home but is seriously injured, hardly able to move,
>>>> shaking from the severe pain it is in. You try to get it to the animal
>>>> hospital but it dies before you get there.
>>>>
>>>> On day number two you lose three more cats, all close enough to your
>>>> home that you can stand on your porch and see their flattened corpses
>>>> on the busy road you live next to.
>>>>
>>>> Day number three is pretty good- one cat comes home and was obviously
>>>> tortured by a neighborhood kid but he will live. Although this cat
>>>> used to be the most emotional cat you ever had, purring and rubbing up
>>>> against you on a hourly basis, he now sits under the kitchen table,
>>>> almost motionless, never making a sound. The only time he ever moves
>>>> is when you come near him, and then he runs in the opposite direction
>>>> as fast as he cant.
>>>>
>>>> On day number four you lose one cat to a neighbors robotic lawn mower
>>>> and another cat to neighbor hood kids playing with pellet guns and
>>>> slingshots. Another was killed by a car.
>>>>
>>>> In case you haven't been counting, you now have two cats left. Are you
>>>> honestly telling me that you would LET these cats out and shrug it off
>>>> as "just life" if they died? Personally, I would find YOU responsible
>>>> for their deaths.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>> It is true that cats can't have everything they want, any more than any
>>> other animal or human can have anything he/she wants, but it is also
>>> true that you will have to put up with your indoor cat running out every
>>> chance he gets for a long long time, so you will have to get used to it.
>>>
>>> As to your hypothetical situation:
>>>
>>> So, your hypothetical situation couldn't possibly occur with me.
>>
>> William,
>>
>> The neat thing about hypothetical situations is that you can consider
>> them regardless of if they actually have a chance of becoming reality.
>>
>> You give advice and try to persuade people who are in very different
>> situations than you are- the least you can do is consider this topic from
>> the perspective of a different situation!
>>
>> I'll try again:
>>
>> __IF__ you were in the hypothetical situation (pretend you had some
>> sci-fi life-swap if it helps you), WOULD YOU allow the remaining two cats
>> to roam outside on day number five?
>>
>> David
>>
> I thought I made it clear that I am totally unable to answer that
> question, since it is beyond my experience. As to my giving advice to
> others, I always make it clear that I have no experience with their
> situation if that happens to be the case.....I usually start out with that
> disqualifying statement. I will usually say something like, "I only have
> outside cats, but....."

Yes, you do a good job qualifying your responses. This doesn't make you
incapable of considering a situation.

>If someone takes my advice on the matter as that of an expert on inside
>cats, well, that's their bad judgment, and not mine.
> Realistically, how can you expect an answer to your hypothetical
> question? You paint a picture of someone who lives in such a horrific
> environment that 8 of their 10 outside cats are killed in a relatively
> short period of time, and then ask them whether they might consider
> keeping their cats inside.....this is ridiculous.

It's an exaggerated situation. The point of it was to see if there were any
conditions whatsoever under which you would justify keeping a cat "locked"
indoors.

> I would consider not keeping any cats at all before I considered keeping
> 10 cats inside. Is that an answer?

Not really but I guess I could make assumptions based on it. Perhaps if you
were in the given situation you would simply lock all the cats out of your
home and not care for any of them...

Please realize that I am not insinuating that you would actually put
yourself in the situation that I described. I was just wondering what you
would do if you had magically found yourself in that situation. If you
refuse to play along, that's fine.

> Just for the record. I lived on the intersection of Santa Cruz Avenue and
> Sand Hill Road in Menlo Park, California for 15 years. During that time I
> had a couple of cats, and my neighbor had one, and none of the three were
> run over by vehicles, even though cars, trucks, and busses went by 24-7.
> Because of the traffic on that intersection, I would never have considered
> getting a cat. The two I had wandered in from somewhere else, and all I
> did was to give them shelter and food. I made no attempt to get them to
> stay with me at all, nor did I expect them to survive for very long. They
> both did survive for over ten years, however, and died natural deaths.

ItsOverJohnny
January 22nd 08, 11:25 PM
On Dec 28 2007, 5:35´┐Żam, RPSinha > wrote:
> William Graham > wrote:
>
> : I use cat doors....
>
> I appreciate that as a long term solution, if she was my cat, :) but
> this trip is a sudden family development and I can only strive to make
> her as comfortable as possible for 24 hours and then face he ranger
> when I return!

You leave her indoors for 24 hours. I mean, its either you leave her
outside or inside, I think inside is the much better idea.