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February 11th 08, 11:53 PM
Adopted stray cat from neighbor who died of cancer.
He is, I am guessing, about 8 yrs old.

Has had chronic sneezing problem on and off many years.

Has many missing teeth, rest are tartared with some redness
around gums. Bad breath and one broken tooth.

ONE of his nostrils is swollen, other is not. Red and raw and will
not heal.
Some very small amount of pus, not alot occasionally coming from it.
Tried antibiotic ointment, but does not help much. Been this way
a couple months now at least

His sneeze is clear thin mucous, sneeze and dribble-has the
equivalent of chronic sinusitis in people judging by his symptoms.

Why is the nose not healing and swollen?

I think I already know what the sneezing is from.

The sneeze goes away on antibiotics, but returns when taken off.
Antibiotics do not seem to help the nose, least the one I tried.

Since vets don't seem to know how to treat URI and have no cure for
it,
mainly I am concerned about his nose. He is not so sick as to
to be eating and there is no longer any eye involvement thanks
to frequent irrigation.

Answers that provide plausible answers to the questions are
appreciated.
He has already been to the vet and he did not seem to know the cause.
(Cross posted, due to low activity on alt.med.veterinary)

Gandalf
February 12th 08, 09:50 AM
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:53:50 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

>Adopted stray cat from neighbor who died of cancer.
>He is, I am guessing, about 8 yrs old.
>
>Has had chronic sneezing problem on and off many years.
>
>Has many missing teeth, rest are tartared with some redness
>around gums. Bad breath and one broken tooth.
>
>ONE of his nostrils is swollen, other is not. Red and raw and will
>not heal.
>Some very small amount of pus, not alot occasionally coming from it.
>Tried antibiotic ointment, but does not help much. Been this way
>a couple months now at least
>
>His sneeze is clear thin mucous, sneeze and dribble-has the
>equivalent of chronic sinusitis in people judging by his symptoms.
>
>Why is the nose not healing and swollen?
>
>I think I already know what the sneezing is from.
>
>The sneeze goes away on antibiotics, but returns when taken off.
>Antibiotics do not seem to help the nose, least the one I tried.
>
>Since vets don't seem to know how to treat URI and have no cure for
>it,
>mainly I am concerned about his nose. He is not so sick as to
>to be eating and there is no longer any eye involvement thanks
>to frequent irrigation.
>
>Answers that provide plausible answers to the questions are
>appreciated.
>He has already been to the vet and he did not seem to know the cause.
>(Cross posted, due to low activity on alt.med.veterinary)

Speaking as the Chairman of the Department of the Bloody Obvious: I
think you need to find a better vet.

This sounds like more than once process going on; it will take some
persistence, and likely some big vet bills, to track down.

Best of luck.

dgk
February 12th 08, 02:56 PM
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 08:50:06 GMT, (Gandalf) wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:53:50 -0800 (PST),
>wrote:
>
>>Adopted stray cat from neighbor who died of cancer.
>>He is, I am guessing, about 8 yrs old.
>>
>>Has had chronic sneezing problem on and off many years.
>>
>>Has many missing teeth, rest are tartared with some redness
>>around gums. Bad breath and one broken tooth.
>>
>>ONE of his nostrils is swollen, other is not. Red and raw and will
>>not heal.
>>Some very small amount of pus, not alot occasionally coming from it.
>>Tried antibiotic ointment, but does not help much. Been this way
>>a couple months now at least
>>
>>His sneeze is clear thin mucous, sneeze and dribble-has the
>>equivalent of chronic sinusitis in people judging by his symptoms.
>>
>>Why is the nose not healing and swollen?
>>
>>I think I already know what the sneezing is from.
>>
>>The sneeze goes away on antibiotics, but returns when taken off.
>>Antibiotics do not seem to help the nose, least the one I tried.
>>
>>Since vets don't seem to know how to treat URI and have no cure for
>>it,
>>mainly I am concerned about his nose. He is not so sick as to
>>to be eating and there is no longer any eye involvement thanks
>>to frequent irrigation.
>>
>>Answers that provide plausible answers to the questions are
>>appreciated.
>>He has already been to the vet and he did not seem to know the cause.
>>(Cross posted, due to low activity on alt.med.veterinary)
>
>Speaking as the Chairman of the Department of the Bloody Obvious: I
>think you need to find a better vet.
>
>This sounds like more than once process going on; it will take some
>persistence, and likely some big vet bills, to track down.
>
>Best of luck.


Right, your vet seems less than optimal, try another one. From
experience, the first thing to do is to take care of those teeth.
Infections in the mouth cannot be fought by antibiotics with any
degree of success; they subside while on antibiotics but the reservoir
of bacteria remains in the gums and teeth where the antibitotics can't
reach. Those infections cause lots of secondary problems. You might
find that cleaning out that mouth fixes the other symptoms.

It won't be cheap though. It cost over $1000 to have the teeth pulled
on an elderly cat that I adopted, but it solved the problems. All the
teeth were pulled, including several broken off under the gum line.
What a mess. But she was MUCH better afterward and clearly was a
happier cat. They don't show pain much but you can bet that mouth
hurts.

Dale Atkin
February 12th 08, 04:26 PM
>
> Has many missing teeth, rest are tartared with some redness
> around gums. Bad breath and one broken tooth.
>
> ONE of his nostrils is swollen, other is not. Red and raw and will
> not heal.
> Why is the nose not healing and swollen?

Thought I'd share a story about my Mom's cat that might (or might not) be
relevant. Some time ago, we noticed he had bad teeth. Its most likely a
developmental thing with him. He was starved as a kitten before we got him.

Anyways, my Mom didn't want to have a dental done him. Was worried about
ending up with a toothless cat (didn't think it would be fair on him).
Anyways, time passed, and they didn't seem to be bothering him too much. One
day we noticed a sore on his front and back left paws from where he'd been
licking at it. Anyways, we took him in to the vet, and began treating him
for that. While I was giving him his pills I noticed that his teeth on the
left side of his mouth were much worse than they had been, and looked quite
painful. Had the dental done, they pulled out most of his teeth, and he
magically stopped licking, and hasn't since (he's also been *much* happier).
He still mouses, and can eat hard food, even though he has next to no teeth
in his mouth (I think he has about 6 left, including his canines).

I'd get the dental done. You never know what it might clear up, and it
certainly won't do him any harm.

Dale

Sharon Too
February 12th 08, 09:22 PM
> It won't be cheap though. It cost over $1000 to have the teeth pulled
> on an elderly cat that I adopted, but it solved the problems.

(BTW, it is National Pet Dental health Month) :-)

Boy, we'd be head over heels if we charged that much for such dental work at
our practice. A thorough professional cleaning at our place is in the
vicinity of $200-$300, more if extractions are involved and/or dental x-rays
are used. But not *that* much. In February we also discount dental
procedures 10%. Check around, but be forwarned that this is done under
general anesthesia for obvious reasons and you should have pre-op blood work
done first to make sure the pet can handle the anesthesia.

As others have said, periodontal disease in pets opens the door to bacteria
in the system which causes all kinds of illnesses and organ degeneration.
Now that we get pets to live longer, if teeth and gums are not taken care of
(especially in cats and small dogs) it's not a matter of *if* they get
periodontal disease, but WHEN. Chunking off tartar on your own (and some
groomers do this) is dangerous as it can nick the gums introducing the nasty
bacteria.

-Sharon

dgk
February 13th 08, 02:09 PM
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:22:57 -0500, "Sharon Too"
> wrote:

>> It won't be cheap though. It cost over $1000 to have the teeth pulled
>> on an elderly cat that I adopted, but it solved the problems.
>
>(BTW, it is National Pet Dental health Month) :-)
>
>Boy, we'd be head over heels if we charged that much for such dental work at
>our practice. A thorough professional cleaning at our place is in the
>vicinity of $200-$300, more if extractions are involved and/or dental x-rays
>are used. But not *that* much. In February we also discount dental
>procedures 10%. Check around, but be forwarned that this is done under
>general anesthesia for obvious reasons and you should have pre-op blood work
>done first to make sure the pet can handle the anesthesia.
>
>As others have said, periodontal disease in pets opens the door to bacteria
>in the system which causes all kinds of illnesses and organ degeneration.
>Now that we get pets to live longer, if teeth and gums are not taken care of
>(especially in cats and small dogs) it's not a matter of *if* they get
>periodontal disease, but WHEN. Chunking off tartar on your own (and some
>groomers do this) is dangerous as it can nick the gums introducing the nasty
>bacteria.
>
>-Sharon
>


The cat in question, Jackie, was in very bad health. My normal vet
didn't think he was up to the work involved in Jackie's mouth and sent
me to a dental specialist at the Specialty Vet. The cost was only
$1000 because the dentist didn't charge me his fee because I had just
adopted the cat a few months before, knowing she was seriously ill.
The charge was the cost of hospitalization and the standard charges of
the Specialty Vet place. They kept her for at least two days.

I would think that most dental work would be cheaper, but her mouth
was such a mess that it really needed major work. She was on pain
medication (fentynal?) for quite some time afterwards.

Hopefully the OP will get charged closer to your rates.

arkdoc
February 13th 08, 04:59 PM
We are all snowy here, so I'm not so busy. Thought I'd throw in my 2
cents. A good thorough dental with charting, anesthesia that is
balanced, 2 days of IV fluids with round the clock nursing care, and
post operative therapy is easily $1000 dollars. That said, a full
mouth extraction, with advanced periodontal oral surgery, consil(TM)
bone glass to regrow bone where the teeth were, and blood work,
intraoperative fluids and (of course, I usually do acupuncture
intraoperatively and aquapuncture with B12 to go home) home care
medications could easily cost 5-600 dollars.

I would not be so quick to condemn the other vets. Upper Respiratory
Diseases are usually viral, and the most common is a Herpes virus.
The FHV-1 gets into the cells of the mucous membranes and destroys
them, a bacteria comes along and lives in the damaged, dying tissue.
When the Feline Herpes Virus gets done with its little attack it
scurries back up the nerves, like all herpes viruses do, and settles
in a ganglion (like a roundabout for nerves). Nothing can get to it
there as there is no blood or lymph supply. Like cold sores in
humans, they wait for stress or overwhelming poor health and skitter
back down to the eyes, nose, throat and sinuses to start all over
again. Eye herpes is the worst!

Antibiotics kill bacteria. They are great for the secondary bacteria
especially if the source is a continually disgusting set of dead teeth
and associated osteomyelitis. Unfortunately, human products for
herpes are pretty expensive so the best we can hope for is nutritional
help. Recently, lysine has been helpful to keep the herpes from
reproducing once it comes out of the ganglion. Maybe, with a good
mouth antibiotic and some lysine, the cat can improve until you can
get it in to a vet. I also use Chinese herbals to boost the immune
system if it needs.

Prevention of herpes is just about impossible. Vaccinated mothers
that become immune can send that immunity to the kittens. Then proper
vaccination at 8 and 12 weeks, then at one year, then every three
years is an excellent way to help the body fight the virus. But...
cats with kittens are usually neglected, and people don't bring in
their cats until they need spays. 8 or 9 of ten cats have the virus.
It is truly an uphill battle. Good luck and don't forget to feed high
class food. I don't mean anything that you can find on a grocery
store, box pet store shelf, or Wally world. Get Innova for Seniors at
a specialty pet food store or better, cook for the old cat (I feed
Merrick canned for my cats constitution). Go to Naturapet.com and
click on tools=> pet food comparison. You'll get a real education
comparing different foods and their ingredients.

February 13th 08, 11:14 PM
Thanks for the interesting education on URIs. More inline below:

On Feb 13, 8:59 am, arkdoc > wrote:

<snip for brevity's sake>

>
> I would not be so quick to condemn the other vets. Upper Respiratory
> Diseases are usually viral, and the most common is a Herpes virus.
> The FHV-1 gets into the cells of the mucous membranes and destroys
> them, a bacteria comes along and lives in the damaged, dying tissue.
> When the Feline Herpes Virus gets done with its little attack it
> scurries back up the nerves, like all herpes viruses do, and settles
> in a ganglion (like a roundabout for nerves). Nothing can get to it
> there as there is no blood or lymph supply. Like cold sores in
> humans, they wait for stress or overwhelming poor health and skitter
> back down to the eyes, nose, throat and sinuses to start all over
> again. Eye herpes is the worst!

He had some minor conjunctivitis, but cleared on irrigation with
saline, but still no testing was ever done to confirm herpes virus, so
I still do not know the cause of his sneezing and congestion and sore
nose. Also dental work will add to his stress, poses the risk of death
especially since his breathing is not normal and also may aggravate
the herpes, IF , in fact, he does have herpes.

>
> Antibiotics kill bacteria. They are great for the secondary bacteria
> especially if the source is a continually disgusting set of dead teeth
> and associated osteomyelitis. Unfortunately, human products for
> herpes are pretty expensive so the best we can hope for is nutritional
> help. Recently, lysine has been helpful to keep the herpes from
> reproducing once it comes out of the ganglion. Maybe, with a good
> mouth antibiotic and some lysine, the cat can improve until you can
> get it in to a vet. I also use Chinese herbals to boost the immune
> system if it needs.

Tried lysine 500 mg/bid. Doesn't seem to help much. Also there is a
limit to what I can mix in wet food and wet food just feeds his dental
problems. Tried echinacea, seemed to help a bit, but cannot used
continuously. Tired vitamin c, but think it irritates his stomach?

>
> Prevention of herpes is just about impossible. Vaccinated mothers
> that become immune can send that immunity to the kittens. Then proper
> vaccination at 8 and 12 weeks, then at one year, then every three
> years is an excellent way to help the body fight the virus. But...
> cats with kittens are usually neglected, and people don't bring in
> their cats until they need spays. 8 or 9 of ten cats have the virus.
> It is truly an uphill battle. Good luck and don't forget to feed high
> class food. I don't mean anything that you can find on a grocery
> store, box pet store shelf, or Wally world. Get Innova for Seniors at
> a specialty pet food store or better, cook for the old cat (I feed
> Merrick canned for my cats constitution). Go to Naturapet.com and
> click on tools=> pet food comparison. You'll get a real education
> comparing different foods and their ingredients.

Yeah good food is a good suggestion, but that won't solve the problem.

What, in your opinion is the most efficacious way to proceed with this
cat? There is some question in my mind if the dental problems are
causing the sneezing and nose sore. I tried a new antibiotic,
cephalexin, and the nose swelling has gone done somewhat, but he
occassionally paws aggressively at his one swollen nostril, so it is
bothering him. Constant serous discharge in from nose. One tech I
spoke with suggested possible nasal obstruction, but I am guessing the
scope they use for this will add another 500 bucks to the bill and
they STILL won't be able to tell me what the causes are or offer any
real improvement. I hate to think it but maybe euthanesia is the best
solution as this problem is looking like it might become a bottomless
pit of vet bills with no real improvement or solution.

February 15th 08, 02:37 AM
On Feb 11, 11:53 pm, wrote:
> Adopted stray cat from neighbor who died of cancer.
> He is, I am guessing, about 8 yrs old.
>
> Has had chronic sneezing problem on and off many years.
>
> Has many missing teeth, rest are tartared with some redness
> around gums. Bad breath and one broken tooth.
>
> ONE of his nostrils is swollen, other is not. Red and raw and will
> not heal.
> Some very small amount of pus, not alot occasionally coming from it.
> Tried antibiotic ointment, but does not help much. Been this way
> a couple months now at least
>
> His sneeze is clear thin mucous, sneeze and dribble-has the
> equivalent of chronic sinusitis in people judging by his symptoms.
>
> Why is the nose not healing and swollen?
>
> I think I already know what the sneezing is from.
>
> The sneeze goes away on antibiotics, but returns when taken off.
> Antibiotics do not seem to help the nose, least the one I tried.
>
> Since vets don't seem to know how to treat URI and have no cure for
> it,
> mainly I am concerned about his nose. He is not so sick as to
> to be eating and there is no longer any eye involvement thanks
> to frequent irrigation.
>
> Answers that provide plausible answers to the questions are
> appreciated.
> He has already been to the vet and he did not seem to know the cause.
> (Cross posted, due to low activity on alt.med.veterinary)

My cat is 17years and has never been sick until last year she
developped a chronic nose discharged in one nostril,followed by
sneezing.The vet did a larascopy by inserting a tube in her nostril,
and he found out small cystes.He could not operate her anymore because
of her age but advised antibiotics and corticoids for life.the
sneezing and discharge disappeared for a while and was back again
after a few months.The vet could not believe that she would
survive.This time the side of her face swollened so much and her eye
discharged.The bump " popped out",pus came out from it, and left a big
hole above her eye>that time she got treated with more antibiotics,
irrigation.Her appetite has never been affected.This disease is very
common to older cats who never fell sick previously
Tigri has put on weight,she is still having her normal diet, raw
meat,dry food and water.My family knows that anytime she can fall very
sick and pass away, we are prepared for it, though our heart is
breaking.We give the maximum to our queen until the end.She is
surrounded by her 3 old dogs friends
Now she is under my feet, sleeping heavenly, having a bit of swollened
side again!
I pray she will reach her 20 my queen

cybercat
February 15th 08, 04:39 AM
> wrote
>We give the maximum to our queen until the end.She is
> surrounded by her 3 old dogs friends
> Now she is under my feet, sleeping heavenly, having a bit of swollened
> side again!
> I pray she will reach her 20 my queen

You're a fine human being. You passed the Cat Test with flying
colors, as they say. Surely you will be admitted to Heaven. ;)

Gandalf
February 15th 08, 07:28 AM
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:39:38 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
> wrote
> >We give the maximum to our queen until the end.She is
>> surrounded by her 3 old dogs friends
>> Now she is under my feet, sleeping heavenly, having a bit of swollened
>> side again!
>> I pray she will reach her 20 my queen
>
>You're a fine human being. You passed the Cat Test with flying
>colors, as they say. Surely you will be admitted to Heaven. ;)
>

Oh yes, indeed.

How you behave towards cats here below determines your status in Heaven.
- Robert Heinlein