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March 25th 08, 06:06 PM
Hello gavram,

> wrote in message news:1ef5e5e6-0a92-49ae-bdd6-
...
> We have an eight month old Poodle/Bichon mix that is too small to jump
> up on the couch but puts his front paws up on it while we are sitting.
> He will get down if we sternly use the "off" command but will then
> jump up again shortly thereafter in another spot.

Sounds like your dog don't RESPECT your AUTHORITY, eh??

> I tried keeping him on his leash and pulling him down while
> saying off over and over again but he can't seem to get it.

That's a sign of DISRESPECT, wouldn't you agree, eh??

> He has been a pretty good learner with
> the other training he has received.

You mean, offering and withholding a cookie till does what you asked?

> Any thoughts on how to prevent this?

Of curse~!

You could tip the couch over so there's no flat surface to get
up onto. Or you could put double faced tape all over it. Or
you could put some other furniture up on it. Do you have a
coffe table and a couple end tables? Put the coffe table right
side up, and put the end tables on the coffe table.

OtherWIZE, you'll have to use more of a CLASSICAL
CON-ditioning approach, like this:

I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.

Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.

Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.

If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.

When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."

I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."

My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.

A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive *******
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens

From: (Dogman)
Date: 1999/01/15
Subject: Re: Another mouthy lab

Get this book:

"The Art of Raising A Puppy," by the Monks of New Skete

If you can't find it locally, you can obtain it
through my Web site (see below).

You'll need it for more than just the usual puppy
"mouthing" problems, anyway.

And good luck with your Lab puppy!
--
Dogman

------------------------

From: (Michael Erskine)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 10:09:05 -0700

Subject: My GSD bit me.
The question:

I have a four year old male GSD. He growls
at me sometimes. When he growls at me he
stares me in the face and lays his ears back.

The New Skete books say that the dog should not be
allowed to do that. They suggest shaking down the
dog by grabing the dog on the sides of his neck and
picking him off his front feet, then giving the dog the
same sort of treatment the dog would give another if
it were challenging him.

Namely getting in the dogs face and letting
the dog know you are the alpha dog.

Well, my dog bit me clearly he felt that I was not
convincing enough or he bit me out of fear.

Anyone got ideas on what to do with this dog that might
help him to decide that he wants to follow and that he
has nothing to fear from me?

----------------------

From: Charlie Wilkes >
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:21:14 GMT
Subject: Re: My GSD bit me.

You need to improve your acting skills. Get a werewolf
suit with blood-drenched fangs and claw gloves and THEN
go after your dog.

Knock the **** out of him and don't be afraid to crack
some ribs. Then yank the mask off and shout "SURPRISE!
IT'S ME!" I guarantee you and your dog will have a new
relationship based on mutual respect.

Keep in mind that the monks of New Skete
were pre-Lon-Chaney.

Charlie
-----------------------

At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."

Dogman

http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Happy "Positive-Only" Dog Kennel

Specializing in the Gentle Method.

Training and breeding working retrievers in the most humane,
time-proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only
methods, producing rock-solid healthy, happy, tail-wagging,
face-licking, hard-working, well-mannered canine citizens for
close to four decades, utilizing the most humane, time-proven,
extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only training collars
(e.g., the Barbara Woodhouse model), the most humane, time-
proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only longes
(I make my own), the most humane, time-proven, extremely
effective, non-aggressive, positive-only throw chains (instead of
dangerous cans, disks, keys, books, rocks, etc.), and humane,
time-proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only
e-collars (i.e., the Tri-tronics brand. Period.).

Just ask if you need any additional advice <{}: ~ ) >

Here's some house breaking and barking advice, so long as we're chit
chattin:

From: (Dogman) Date: 1997/11/11
Subject: Re: Koehler's Usefulness--A Concluding Assessment

----> "This, from a yellow-bellied coward who has TOTALLY refused
to engage me in debate, preferring mudslinging, hyperbole,
distortion,
lies, exaggeration, and to take Koehler completely out of context,
instead,"<----

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.

"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by
the mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."

"Housebreaking Problems:

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid
correction.

When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.

It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.

When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.

Be consistent in your handling.

To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.

The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.

For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.

The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves
you no other course than to punish him sufficiently
to convince him that the satisfaction of his
wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the
punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house.

An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.

It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.

---------------------

SEE?

"Handsome Jack Morrison"
>
wrote in message
...

> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
> > wrote:

> > Good books huh?

> Absolutely. Some are, in fact, classics.

> > Which idea was your favorite, the one where they
>> tell you to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,

> There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog
> (i.e., it *can* and *does* work in *some* situations).
> Unfortunately, most people either do it incorrectly, do
> it at the wrong time, etc.

> > or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard
> > enough if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within
> > 5 minutes of his punishment?

> If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after careful
> evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get it over with
> quickly than it is to do it incrementally and half-
> heartedly, which usually only invites the need for even
> more discipline.

> > Maybe you liked when they recommend these
> > beatings for housebreaking accidents, chewing /
> > destructive behavior, stealing, trying to get on
> > your bed at night and dog on dog aggression.

> At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating
> a dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin
> does *not* constitute a "beating."

> I'm sorry if you don't agree.

> And each of those behavior "problems" needs
> to be looked at in its proper context.

> A quote from the Monks:

> "We repeat, these situations may merit physical
> discipline. Since no book can pretend to analyze
> every individual dog and situation, we feel obligated
> to emphasize from the outset that discipline is never
> an arbitrary training technique to be applied to each
> and every dog for all offenses. We do, however, believe
> that physical and verbal discipline can be an effective
> technique.

> The best policy if you experience any of the above
> problems is to consult a qualified trainer or veterinarian
> or evaluation of your individual situation....

> "If discipline is decided upon as a training technique,
> it should be the proper technique. We feel we have
> developed several methods that depend less on violent
> physical force than timing, a flair for drama, and the
> element of surprise.

> We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to map
> out these methods, rather than simply skip the topic
> because it is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know
> what to do."

> In other words, physical discipline is reserved for those
> serious, special occasions when other methods have failed.

> For example, they do not recommend using physical
> discipline for *routine* housebreaking chores -- only
> on those rare occasions when an already reliably
> housebroken dog is (after careful evaluation) deemed
> to be soiling the house on purpose, backsliding, etc.

> I'll give you an actual example. Years ago, an adult dog
> was brought to me as an *incurable* house-soiler. It
> was either get the dog reliably housetrained or the dog
> was going on a one way trip to the pound.

> Being the kind, compassionate trainer that I am, I
> was prepared to do whatever it took to get this dog
> house-trained and save his life.

> After several weeks of more or less traditional training,
> and to poor result, I brought out the big guns -- physical
> and verbal discipline. Whenever the dog soiled the house
> (no, you don't even have to catch him in the act), I
> immediately (but very calmly) tossed a leash on his collar,
> dragged him to the scene of the crime, and (using a large
> chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the chair, with
> his nose about two inches away from the poop.

> After a couple of swats on the rump, some loud vocalizing, and a
> wait of about 20 minutes, I'd release the dog and then
> ignore him for a while. I had to repeat this process *three*
> times, I think -- and the house-soiling miraculously
> stopped. The dog went home to enjoy a long and contented
> life with his original owners, and I got to feel good about
> myself.
>
> So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones. Even for novices.
> Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
>
> -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove
> the detonator to reply via e-mail

"Handsome Jack Morrison"
>
wrote in message
...

> On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT,
>(DogStar716) wrote:
> >>> Never mind dogman :)
>
> >> You too? Some folks just never learn.
>
>>>> Uh huh :)
>
>>> One of the signs of mental illness
>>> is to say "Uh huh" a lot.
>
>> PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't on this
>> list, he (or she) is NOT an approved Koehler trainer, no
>> matter how loud you scream otherwise.
>
> May I laugh again? LOL! One doesn't need to be
> on a list to use Koehlers methods or teach his methods.
> Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you that
> not every trainer who uses a leash is a *Koehler* trainer.
>
> Sheesh.
>
> This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but
> if she's hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about
> as far from a Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can
> possibly be.

> Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.
> I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
> adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.
> >http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/patoflearn.html

> Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware
> that whoever wrote it knows nothing about PR
> based training:
>
> "Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend
> in Positive Reinforcement Only training systems"
> You cannot use PR only.

Au contraire. Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and many
other places as well) *claim* that they use nothing but R.
You know, the PPers.

And they do it quite loudly, too.

Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as ignorant?

Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.

And if you knew anything about PR BASED training,
you would realize that. It's not all cookies and babytalk.

There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome
Jack Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool
in my bag, including R-, P, and P-, because I know
that even R has its limits.

You'd know that too, if you didn't
have your head in the sand.

> But that seems to be the battle cry of the Koehler-ites.

The Koehlerites have no battle cry.

They have behaviorism on their side, and
that's more than enough.

> I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs
> a proper leash correction as I do not rely on a
> leash to control or teach my dog.

That may or may not be suitable for your needs,
but it's not suitable for the majority of dog owners,
especially since the advent of leash laws.

Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler
training, Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in
need of a leash.

*(THAT'S HOWE COME tommy
SELLS SHOCK COLLARS)

That you apparently don't know that, once again
shows me just how ignorant of anything to do with
Koehler you are.

My last two dogs have been trained offleash right
from the start, using rewards for what I like, and
nothing for what I don't like.

Good for you, and if that level of training is good enough
for you, fine. But it's not good enough for many of the
rest of us.

> Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.

I really have no idea what you're saying anymore, because
you apparently know so damn little about Koehler and
behavioral principles in general that it's hard to have an
informed discussion with you.

PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to
keep denying that those certain harsh methods are only
for LAST RESORT situations, intended only to SAVE
A DOG'S LIFE, even after I've repeatedly given you
direct *quotes* from Koehler's book saying just that.

It's like you don't even care how stupid people think
you are, or how devious you are, etc. That can't help
your cause any.

You'd think that you'd at least want to
*appear* to be honest, even if you're not. -

- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator
to reply via e-mail

----------------------------

SEE?

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

From: (Dogman)
Date: 1997/01/24
Subject: Re: Over-Excited Lab

On a cold day in Hell, Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:53:10

Teaching a puppy to stop biting and nipping people is
probably the very easiest thing you will ever do as a dog
trainer. Don't make such a big deal out of it.

It's E-A-S-Y, but it won't be done in just one or
two lessons. You must be C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T.

And P-A-T-I-E-N-T.

Whenever your puppy bites or nips you (or anyone else
in your family), do any one of the following:

1.) At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently but firmly tap your puppy on its nose with your index
finger.

2.) At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently but firmly grasp your puppy's lower jaw with your
right hand (if you are right handed), your right thumb stuck
down and under her tongue, your other fingers wrapped
under her jaw, and gently but firmly shake her jaw back
and forth a couple of times.

3.) At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently place a couple of fingers into her mouth, trying to
touch the back of her tongue with them, initiating a gag
reflex.

Immediately after doing any one of the above, stop
playing with her for at least 15-20 minutes and completely
IGNORE her. Do not even make eye contact!

I promise you, Phil, that if you will be consistent in
the application of the above, your puppy will soon stop
nipping and biting people. Just how soon this occurs
depends upon the puppy, how well you execute the above,
and how C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T you are.

And no one should be allowed to play with the puppy
who is not capable of doing any of the above. Not
until she has first learned not to nip and bite people.

"At the very FIRST nip, tap your puppy on his nose with
your index finger, sharply, but not very hard, your face in
his face, and say "NO BITE!" in a firm but not loud voice."

"With your index finger, tap the puppy on her nose firmly,
but not harshly, then, at the very same time, and nose to
nose with her, tell your puppy in a firm but not loud voice,
"NO BITE!"

"At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently but firmly tap your puppy on its nose with your
index finger."

BUT NEVER HIT YOUR DOG~!

Swatting a dog on the nose is always the wrong thing to do.

IMO, the *fastest* way to curb a mouthy puppy's
desire to bite hands (especially if other methods
have failed, because you don't want this habit to
become reinforced by too much success), etc., is
to take advantage of the pup's gag reflex:

Slowly reach over and around the pup's shoulder
(while you're sitting on the floor), coming up to
the pup's mouth from underneath it with your
right hand (that way he can't see your finger or
your hand), and stick your index finger into the
pup's mouth, at the very rear, then down the
pup's throat, and gently place some downward
pressure on the back of the tongue, until he starts
to gag. Use your left arm to hold him close to you,
while you're doing this.

Trust me, it's easier to demonstrate this technique
than to explain it, but it's fail-proof.

He'll quickly put 2 and 2 together. Biting hands = gag.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison

-------------------