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mc
April 8th 08, 01:06 AM
We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was
strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract
infection. Upon the original visit he showed what seemed like rather
minor excessive red and white blood cells in his urine indicating an
infection.

As some of you may recall, we haven't had Max for all that long.
Almost as soon as we took him into our household he was showing signs
of a urinary blockage.

He has had that awful surgery already... the surgery that removes most
of the penis. This was done partially because we (my husband and I)
have been bringing Max into the vet on average of every three weeks,
sometimes more, since we took him into our home.

Since he has had the surgery, the visits to the vet have been no less
frequent.

With all that said, today the veterinarian recommended giving Max 125
mg of glucosamine chondroitin per day for bladder inflamation.

Seeing how at my last visit to the vet, they seemed to think that the
reason he needed to be on anti-biotics AGAIN was because perhaps he
hadn't been on antibiotics long enough after the surgery - although,
it sure seemed like it should have been - I am not an expert. They
seemed to feel at the time that some infection had been left over and
finally grew to become enough of a problem to cause Max discomfort.

So now, they give me this stuff I can get to help with Maxes issues...

I am wondering if we are proceeding willy nilly here. I am leaning
towards waiting to see if the urine sample comes out clean. If so,
then we can proceed from there. If the infection was a residual
infection and the problem has cleared up, then lets see what happens.
If more problems follow, then lets go with the glucosamine.

I am wondering if there are others here who know more about
glucosamine chondroitin? Has anyone had experience with it?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone might have.

Melissa

22brix
April 8th 08, 04:24 AM
"mc" > wrote in message
...
> We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was
> strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract
> infection. Upon the original visit he showed what seemed like rather
> minor excessive red and white blood cells in his urine indicating an
> infection.
>
> As some of you may recall, we haven't had Max for all that long.
> Almost as soon as we took him into our household he was showing signs
> of a urinary blockage.
>
> He has had that awful surgery already... the surgery that removes most
> of the penis. This was done partially because we (my husband and I)
> have been bringing Max into the vet on average of every three weeks,
> sometimes more, since we took him into our home.
>
> Since he has had the surgery, the visits to the vet have been no less
> frequent.
>
> With all that said, today the veterinarian recommended giving Max 125
> mg of glucosamine chondroitin per day for bladder inflamation.
>
> Seeing how at my last visit to the vet, they seemed to think that the
> reason he needed to be on anti-biotics AGAIN was because perhaps he
> hadn't been on antibiotics long enough after the surgery - although,
> it sure seemed like it should have been - I am not an expert. They
> seemed to feel at the time that some infection had been left over and
> finally grew to become enough of a problem to cause Max discomfort.
>
> So now, they give me this stuff I can get to help with Maxes issues...
>
> I am wondering if we are proceeding willy nilly here. I am leaning
> towards waiting to see if the urine sample comes out clean. If so,
> then we can proceed from there. If the infection was a residual
> infection and the problem has cleared up, then lets see what happens.
> If more problems follow, then lets go with the glucosamine.
>
> I am wondering if there are others here who know more about
> glucosamine chondroitin? Has anyone had experience with it?
>
> Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone might have.
>
> Melissa
>
>
>

Hi Melissa,

You might want to ping Phil P.--he's addressed this topic several times. I
was going to try and find a link but my computer is acting up.

It can take several weeks of antibiotic treatment to take care of the
infection. The glucosamine chondroitin is supposed to help repair the
lining of the bladder. I don't remember what else--I think he also suggests
amitriptyline only for easily stressed cats (it's an antidepressant and has
some analgesic activity).

Good luck,

Bonnie

jmc
April 8th 08, 09:47 AM
Suddenly, without warning, mc exclaimed (4/8/2008 9:36 AM):
> We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was
> strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract
> infection. Upon the original visit he showed what seemed like rather
> minor excessive red and white blood cells in his urine indicating an
> infection.
>

>
> With all that said, today the veterinarian recommended giving Max 125
> mg of glucosamine chondroitin per day for bladder inflamation.
>
> I am wondering if there are others here who know more about
> glucosamine chondroitin? Has anyone had experience with it?
>
> Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone might have.
>
> Melissa
>
>
>
Meep gets glucosamine condroitin daily for her cystitis. I'm using,
with the vet's approval, Drs Fosters and Smith Joint Care 2. Yup, a
glucosamine formulation for arthritis. Same stuff, different use, and
cheaper than the glucosamine supp vets will usually sell you, and it
comes in a great big jar of powder for long-term use.

It has helped her a lot. She has gone nearly two years without a
serious attack; she had one recently but it wasn't a crystals problem as
before (poor thing could only pee dime-sized blood spots!). This time
it was the kind of attack where she keeps feeling like she has to pee,
but doesn't actually. If she's gotta have cystitis I prefer this sort
of problem to the painful crystals!

And, since she's an older cat, the glucosamine helps her joints too.
Has no side effects either; I've started taking it for my aging joints
as well. I just add it to her wet food but apparently she likes the
taste, I've coated her dry with it and she still mops it up :)

Here's the link to Meep's supplement:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=14402

jmc

jmc
April 8th 08, 01:14 PM
Suddenly, without warning, 22brix exclaimed (4/8/2008 12:54 PM):
> "mc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was
>> strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract
>> infection. Upon the original visit he showed what seemed like rather
>> minor excessive red and white blood cells in his urine indicating an
>> infection.
>>
>> As some of you may recall, we haven't had Max for all that long.
>> Almost as soon as we took him into our household he was showing signs
>> of a urinary blockage.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone might have.
>>
>> Melissa
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi Melissa,
>
> You might want to ping Phil P.--he's addressed this topic several times. I
> was going to try and find a link but my computer is acting up.
>
> It can take several weeks of antibiotic treatment to take care of the
> infection. The glucosamine chondroitin is supposed to help repair the
> lining of the bladder. I don't remember what else--I think he also suggests
> amitriptyline only for easily stressed cats (it's an antidepressant and has
> some analgesic activity).
>
> Good luck,
>
> Bonnie
>
>

Glucosamine protects the bladder lining as well, I'm told. And Meep the
cystitis kitty will be on amitryptyline as soon as the vet gets the
stuff - it's been really hard for her to chase down a source, but I
asked her to persevere and she did - a compounding pharmacy is making us
up some pills. Here they use clomicalm instead but it's contraindicated
with my kitty since it seems to be causing some urinary retention (a
known side effect).

jmc

Rene S.
April 8th 08, 02:16 PM
> I am wondering if there are others here who know more about
> glucosamine chondroitin? Has anyone had experience with it?

Hi Melissa,

Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well
help. There is also another supplement called curcumin (sp?) that is
supposed to reduce inflammation. It's a derivative of the spice
tumeric. I have a friend who is using this on one of her cats with
great success. There's some info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curcumin


Rene

Phil P.
April 8th 08, 11:47 PM
"mc" > wrote in message
...
> We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was
> strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract
> infection. Upon the original visit he showed what seemed like rather
> minor excessive red and white blood cells in his urine indicating an
> infection.
>
> As some of you may recall, we haven't had Max for all that long.
> Almost as soon as we took him into our household he was showing signs
> of a urinary blockage.
>
> He has had that awful surgery already... the surgery that removes most
> of the penis. This was done partially because we (my husband and I)
> have been bringing Max into the vet on average of every three weeks,
> sometimes more, since we took him into our home.
>
> Since he has had the surgery, the visits to the vet have been no less
> frequent.
>
> With all that said, today the veterinarian recommended giving Max 125
> mg of glucosamine chondroitin per day for bladder inflamation.
>
> Seeing how at my last visit to the vet, they seemed to think that the
> reason he needed to be on anti-biotics AGAIN was because perhaps he
> hadn't been on antibiotics long enough after the surgery - although,
> it sure seemed like it should have been - I am not an expert. They
> seemed to feel at the time that some infection had been left over and
> finally grew to become enough of a problem to cause Max discomfort.
>
> So now, they give me this stuff I can get to help with Maxes issues...
>
> I am wondering if we are proceeding willy nilly here. I am leaning
> towards waiting to see if the urine sample comes out clean. If so,
> then we can proceed from there. If the infection was a residual
> infection and the problem has cleared up, then lets see what happens.
> If more problems follow, then lets go with the glucosamine.
>
> I am wondering if there are others here who know more about
> glucosamine chondroitin? Has anyone had experience with it?
>
> Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone might have.
>
> Melissa

Hi Melissa,

Max will probably be more susceptible to UTIs for awhile. Perineal
urethrostomies wreak havoc on the protective defenses of the lower urinary
tract in male cats. First of all, his urethral opening is now a lot larger,
and second, the muscles that close the urethra won't be able to generate the
maximum urethral closure pressure to keep bacteria out until they heal and
become fully functional again. In the meantime, bacteria will have a poorly
defended entrance into the lower urinary tract.

Its very important to keep his litterbox immaculately clean for the next few
months until his periurethral muscle function returns to normal. I suggest
keeping the litter depth very low to reduce the chances of contact. I use
empty cat food cartons with about a cup of non-clumping litter and just
throw them out after use. Petsmart and Petco will be happy to give you all
the empty cartons you'll ever need. If you decide to use clumping litter,
scoop up the waste with a child's toy plastic flat shovel- don't sift and
scoop with a regular scooper- you'll only be spreading bacteria around.

Your vet probably knows he shouldn't use the same antibiotic every time Max
gets a UTI- that's one of the reasons cats develop antibiotic-resistant
strains. Also, make sure you complete the full course of antibiotics- even
if Max seems ok after a few days. Stopping an antibiotic too soon can also
lead to antibiotic-resistant strains.

The glucosamine/chondroitin supplement should help.

Best of luck,

Phil

Phil P.
April 8th 08, 11:47 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...

> Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well
> help. There is also another supplement called curcumin

Curcumin contains phenols. Phenols are toxic to cats. Did you know that?
You might want to look at the ingredients before recommending a product.

mc
April 9th 08, 12:08 AM
On Apr 8, 9:16 am, "Rene S." > wrote:
> > I am wondering if there are others here who know more about



Well, now here is another question. I am trying to do a bit of
research here as well.

I brought Max home with the cosequin today and instructions to feed
wet food (according to my husband) which I have been doing. They were
specific about feeding him nothing but a food specifically formulated
for urinary tracts.

According to the urinalysis, Maxes urine was not at the PH level they
would like to see. So now what? I have been feeding nothing but
Wellness since all this has come up.

And I will say this: When Max urinates it is a fountain. He urinates
more than I do!! LOL <chuckle> I can never believe how much urine is
in the litter box these days.

Now, it is true that my vets office may not be aware of Wellness, but
I thought it was specifically formulated for urinary tracts - the cans
don't say so but the website makes it sound like as a part of the
"natural" ingredients, they are specifically formulated for urinary
tract issues. So, according to the Wellness website, it sounds to me
like Wellness is naturally being formulated with urinary tract issues
in mind.

Are there canned foods that are better for this sort of thing than
others? The veterinarian said "foods SPECIFICALLY designed for the
urinary tract."

Another point my veterinarian brought up to me was the evidence of the
pituitary gland playing a role in all this. Last night I did a search
for "feline idiopathic cystitus" and came up with this link for
studies that have been done through Ohio State University:

http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/indoorcat/vcna041.pdf

Max is the most laid back cat I have ever owned. I mean, he is like
cat in the Peanuts cartoon... the "boneless" cat. He is very social,
loving, and laid back. Of the two cats I have, Butterball is the one I
would say is stressed out more easily. Max just goes with the flow. He
is the kind of cat you could do anything to and he would just hang out
there :-)

Does "stress" in cats mean something different than with people? Is it
something people can pick up on if they are intently watching a cats
body language?

Anyway, I have to read this article from the Ohio State University
again a few times... to glean what I can.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Thanks in advance...

Melissa

mc
April 9th 08, 12:12 AM
On Apr 8, 6:47 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>


Hi Phil, thanks for the feedback. I just posted another post before I
saw your two posts here...

What about the Wellness?

Sorry for all the questions. I really appreciate the feedback ;-)

Thanks,
Melissa

mc
April 9th 08, 12:18 AM
On Apr 8, 7:12 pm, mc > wrote:
> On Apr 8, 6:47 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:


Phil what you have posted here sure makes a lot of sense. I feel much
better :-)

Still wondering about the best diet...

Thank you, thank you, thank you ;-)

Rene S.
April 9th 08, 12:57 AM
On Apr 8, 5:47�pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "Rene S." > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well
> > help. There is also another supplement called curcumin
>
> Curcumin contains phenols. Phenols are toxic to cats. Did you know that?
> You might want to look at the ingredients before recommending a product.

Phil, if you have any links that specifically say curcumin is toxic to
cats by all means please post them as I would be interested to see
them and share them. I have seen several supplements specifically for
dogs and cats online that contain curcumin. My friend did a lot of
research on this and one source that has recommended the use of
curcumin in cats is Dr. Susan Wynn. Here is her profile:

Susan G. Wynn, DVM is the Founder of the Veterinary Botanical Medical
Association and serves on the advisory boards of the Veterinary
Research Council, Veterinary Institute of Integrative Medicine and the
National Animal Supplement Council. She is, as of 2006, the President-
elect of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, is
active with 2 committees in the Georgia Veterinary Medical
Association, and is a registered herbalist with the American Herbalist
Guild. Dr. Wynn is a consultant for the Veterinary Information Network
and the American Veterinary Medical Association's Network of Animal
Health.

She is an internationally respected speaker in holistic veterinary
medicine, and is an adjunct faculty member with the University of
Georgia's College of Veterinary Medicine. She is a two-time grant
review panelist for the National Institutes of Health. Dr. Wynn has
had papers published in scientific and professional journals, and has
authored or co-authored 4 professional level textbooks, including
Veterinary Herbal Medicine, Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine:
Science and Tradition, Emerging Therapies: Herbal and Natural Medicine
for Small Animals, and Complementary and Alternative Veterinary
Medicine: Principles and Practice.

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 03:15 AM
"mc" > wrote in message
...
> On Apr 8, 6:47 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> >
>
>
> Hi Phil, thanks for the feedback. I just posted another post before I
> saw your two posts here...
>
> What about the Wellness?


Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother the
diehard Wellness fans. Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So
quality control is, at the very least, difficult or nonexistant. That
doesn't seem to bother the diehard Wellness fans either. Wellness is made by
a generic petfood manufacturer- Menu Foods. I'm sure we all heard of Menu
Foods and their lack of quality control.

I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times
about making their own food and their ingredients.
>
> Sorry for all the questions. I really appreciate the feedback ;-)
>
> Thanks,
> Melissa

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 03:15 AM
"mc" > wrote in message
...
> On Apr 8, 9:16 am, "Rene S." > wrote:
> > > I am wondering if there are others here who know more about
>
>
>
> Well, now here is another question. I am trying to do a bit of
> research here as well.
>
> I brought Max home with the cosequin today and instructions to feed
> wet food (according to my husband) which I have been doing. They were
> specific about feeding him nothing but a food specifically formulated
> for urinary tracts.
>
> According to the urinalysis, Maxes urine was not at the PH level they
> would like to see. So now what? I have been feeding nothing but
> Wellness since all this has come up.
>
> And I will say this: When Max urinates it is a fountain. He urinates
> more than I do!! LOL <chuckle> I can never believe how much urine is
> in the litter box these days.
>
> Now, it is true that my vets office may not be aware of Wellness, but
> I thought it was specifically formulated for urinary tracts - the cans
> don't say so but the website makes it sound like as a part of the
> "natural" ingredients, they are specifically formulated for urinary
> tract issues. So, according to the Wellness website, it sounds to me
> like Wellness is naturally being formulated with urinary tract issues
> in mind.

No no no! Wellness's claim regarding "proper urinary tract function".only
refers to a low magnesium content- which is only a small part of the urinary
tract picture. They can't make *any* claims that their diets will produce a
specific urine pH range without clinical studies to back them up-- and they
don't have any.

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 03:16 AM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 5:47?pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "Rene S." > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well
> > help. There is also another supplement called curcumin
>
> Curcumin contains phenols. Phenols are toxic to cats. Did you know that?
> You might want to look at the ingredients before recommending a product.

>Phil, if you have any links that specifically say curcumin is toxic to
cats by all means please post them as I would be interested to see
>them and share them.

I'd be happy to. But first I want to establish the fact that curcumin
indeed contains phenols. And phenols are toxic to cats- especially when
ingested chronically.

"2744. Curcumin.
(EE)-1,7-Bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6*heptadiene-3,5-dione, turmeric
yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006; mol
wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turmeric#Chemistry

"Turmeric contains up to 5% essential oils and up to 3% curcumin, a
polyphenol."

"Toxicity and Risk Factors. Phenol toxicosis produces identical symptoms in
all animal species. All animals develop phenol toxicosis at about the same
magnitude, except cats, which are more sensitive because of their limited
glucuronide transferase activity." Clinical Veterinary Toxicology, p. 165

"Mechanism of action. Phenols are absorbed rapidly from the GI tract and
percutaneously. Cats, certain reptiles, and birds are highly sensitive."
Small Animal Toxicology and Poisoning, p. 265

"The oral LD5o of phenol in dogs is estimated to be 0.5 gm/ kg. Cats are
considerably more sensitive because of their limited glucuronide transferase
activity." Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy, vol XIII, p. 265

Susceptibility of cats to phenol.
J Chronic Dis. 1961 Feb 15;138:197-9.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8515551

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=1&cat=1934&articleid=2243


>My friend did a lot of
>research on this

Aparrently, she didn't do enough.

and one source that has recommended the use of
>curcumin in cats is Dr. Susan Wynn. Here is her profile:

Like I say- credentials don't always guarantee credibility- one can exist
without the other.

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 03:20 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Rene S." > wrote in message
> ...
> On Apr 8, 5:47?pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> > "Rene S." > wrote in message
> >
> >
...
> >
> > > Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well
> > > help. There is also another supplement called curcumin
> >
> > Curcumin contains phenols. Phenols are toxic to cats. Did you know that?
> > You might want to look at the ingredients before recommending a product.
>
> >Phil, if you have any links that specifically say curcumin is toxic to
> cats by all means please post them as I would be interested to see
> >them and share them.
>
> I'd be happy to. But first I want to establish the fact that curcumin
> indeed contains phenols. And phenols are toxic to cats- especially when
> ingested chronically.
>
> "2744. Curcumin.
> (EE)-1,7-Bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6*heptadiene-3,5-dione, turmeric
> yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006;
mol
> wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turmeric#Chemistry
>
> "Turmeric contains up to 5% essential oils and up to 3% curcumin, a
> polyphenol."
>
> "Toxicity and Risk Factors. Phenol toxicosis produces identical symptoms
in
> all animal species. All animals develop phenol toxicosis at about the same
> magnitude, except cats, which are more sensitive because of their limited
> glucuronide transferase activity." Clinical Veterinary Toxicology, p. 165
>
> "Mechanism of action. Phenols are absorbed rapidly from the GI tract and
> percutaneously. Cats, certain reptiles, and birds are highly sensitive."
> Small Animal Toxicology and Poisoning, p. 265
>
> "The oral LD5o of phenol in dogs is estimated to be 0.5 gm/ kg. Cats are
> considerably more sensitive because of their limited glucuronide
transferase
> activity." Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy, vol XIII, p. 265
>
> Susceptibility of cats to phenol.
> J Chronic Dis. 1961 Feb 15;138:197-9.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8515551
>
> http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=1&cat=1934&articleid=2243
>
>
> >My friend did a lot of
> >research on this
>
> Aparrently, she didn't do enough.
>
> and one source that has recommended the use of
> >curcumin in cats is Dr. Susan Wynn. Here is her profile:
>
> Like I say- credentials don't always guarantee credibility- one can exist
> without the other.


Oops, I forgot one:

"The phenol LD50 in the dog is approximately 0.5 g/kg body weight.
Limitations in glucuronide transferase activity in the cat make this species
more susceptible to intoxication."
http://www.vetmedtext.com/content/default.cfm

Rene S.
April 9th 08, 02:45 PM
> Oops, I forgot one:
>
> "The phenol LD50 in the dog is approximately 0.5 g/kg body weight.
> Limitations in glucuronide transferase activity in the cat make this species
> more susceptible to intoxication."http://www.vetmedtext.com/content/default.cfm


I am still waiting for you to post a link saying, *specifically*, that
curcumin is toxic to cats. I am unable to find anything that says
this. The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a
polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are
many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things.
*
Polyphenol: A kind of chemical that (at least in theory) may protect
against some common health problems and possibly certain effects of
aging.
Polyphenols act as antioxidants. They protect cells and body chemicals
against damage caused by free radicals, reactive atoms that contribute
to tissue damage in the body. For example, when low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol is oxidized, it can become glued to
arteries and cause coronary heart disease.
Polyphenols can also block the action of enzymes that cancers need for
growth and they can deactivate substances that promote the growth of
cancers. The polyphenol most strongly associated with cancer
prevention is epigallocatechin-3-gallate, or EGCG.
All tea contains polyphenols. Teas and polyphenols isolated from tea
have been shown in the laboratory to act as scavengers of oxygen and
nitrogen-free radicals, protecting the fatty membranes of cells,
proteins and DNA. However, the results of human studies of tea and
polyphenols to date (2001) have been inconsistent and have yet to
prove anything one way or the other as regards the value of
polyphenols.
**
Phenol: 1. A poisonous corrosive compound obtained by the distillation
of coal tar that, in dilute solution, is an antimicrobial agent. Also
called carbolic acid.

Rene S.
April 9th 08, 02:48 PM
On Apr 9, 8:45*am, "Rene S." > wrote:
> > Oops, I forgot one:
>
> > "The phenol LD50 in the dog is approximately 0.5 g/kg body weight.
> > Limitations in glucuronide transferase activity in the cat make this species
> > more susceptible to intoxication."http://www.vetmedtext.com/content/default.cfm
>
> I am still waiting for you to post a link saying, *specifically*, that
> curcumin is toxic to cats. I am unable to find anything that says
> this. The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a
> polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are
> many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things.

I found the following recommendations for dosing cats and dogs from
this link:
http://thorne.dyrectmedia.com/media.turmeric_monograph.pdf


Safety and Dosage

No significant toxicity has been reported following either acute or
chronic administration of
turmeric extracts at standard doses. At very high doses (100 mg/kg
body weight), curcumin may be
ulcerogenic in animals, as evidenced by one rat study.34 Because of
its numerous protective benefits,
regular addition of turmeric to animal feed may be beneficial. For a
specific therapeutic effect, the
typical canine dosage of curcumin is 50-250 mg three times daily,
depending on the size of the animal.
36 If using whole turmeric, the average canine dosage is one-half
teaspoon twice daily. Feline
dosages are in the range of 50-100 mg daily of curcumin and
approximately one-quarter teaspoon
daily if using whole turmeric. Equine dosages of curcumin are much
higher due to the size of the
animal, and range between 1,200 and 2,400 mg daily. Curcumin and
turmeric research in these animals
is limited and the dosages stated above are estimates only.

I also found this:

In a recent study, cats exposed to myocardial ischemia-reduced blood
flow in the heart tissues, a condition resulting from the consequences
of a heart attack, were evaluated using curcumin and quinidine, a
standard antiarrhythmic drug. Both of the substances protected the
animals against a decrease in heart rate and blood pressure following
restricted blood flow to the heart."


I refuse to believe they are using a compound to potentially help cats
that would be toxic to them, and I would tend to believe someone with
the plethora of impressive credentials Dr. Wynn has over some dude on
the internet.

Rene S.
April 9th 08, 03:22 PM
> Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother the
> diehard Wellness fans. *Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So
> quality control is, at the very least, difficult or nonexistant. That
> doesn't seem to bother the diehard Wellness fans either. Wellness is made by
> a generic petfood manufacturer- Menu Foods. *I'm sure we all heard of Menu
> Foods and their lack of quality control.
>
> I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times
> about making their own food and their ingredients.

Phil,
This is not true. I did a quick search of the ingredient lists of the
Wellness dry and canned foods for cats and garlic is not listed.
http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_index.html
http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_index.html

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 05:12 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...
> Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother
the
> diehard Wellness fans. Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So
> quality control is, at the very least, difficult or nonexistant. That
> doesn't seem to bother the diehard Wellness fans either. Wellness is made
by
> a generic petfood manufacturer- Menu Foods. I'm sure we all heard of Menu
> Foods and their lack of quality control.
>
> I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times
> about making their own food and their ingredients.

>Phil,
>This is not true. I did a quick search of the ingredient lists of the
>Wellness dry and canned foods for cats and garlic is not listed.
>http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_index.html
..http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_index.html


Oh yes it certainly is true! Try reading the label on the can.....

http://maxshouse.com/wellnesschickenlable.jpg

Wellness probably took garlic off the ingredients list on their website
because they probably received numerous emails from people who are
knowledgeable about feline nutrition, but left in the food because they know
most people don't read the labels.

I told you Wellness is sleazy company. Still trust them?

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 05:26 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...

> Oops, I forgot one:
>
> "The phenol LD50 in the dog is approximately 0.5 g/kg body weight.
> Limitations in glucuronide transferase activity in the cat make this
species
> more susceptible to
intoxication."http://www.vetmedtext.com/content/default.cfm


>I am still waiting for you to post a link saying, *specifically*, that
>curcumin is toxic to cats.

Are you serious!!! lol

I've already established the fact that curcumin indeed contains phenols. And
phenols are toxic to cats- especially when
ingested chronically.

>The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a
>polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are
>many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things.


Did you not read the Merck chemical analysis of Curcumin???.

"2744. Curcumin.
(EE)-1,7-Bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6*heptadiene-3,5-dione, turmeric
yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006; mol
wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450

Rene S.
April 9th 08, 06:51 PM
On Apr 9, 11:12*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "Rene S." > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother
> the
> > diehard Wellness fans. Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So
> > quality control is, at the very least, difficult or nonexistant. That
> > doesn't seem to bother the diehard Wellness fans either. Wellness is made
> by
> > a generic petfood manufacturer- Menu Foods. I'm sure we all heard of Menu
> > Foods and their lack of quality control.
>
> > I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times
> > about making their own food and their ingredients.
> >Phil,
> >This is not true. I did a quick search of the ingredient lists of the
> >Wellness dry and canned foods for cats and garlic is not listed.
> >http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_index.html
>
> .http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_index.html
>
> Oh yes it certainly is true! Try reading the label on the can.....
>
> http://maxshouse.com/wellnesschickenlable.jpg
>
> Wellness probably took garlic off the ingredients list on their website
> because they probably received numerous emails from people who are
> knowledgeable about feline nutrition, but left in the food because they know
> most people don't read the labels.
>
> I told you Wellness is sleazy company. Still trust them?

Wellness has stated that, as of December 2007, they no longer adding
garlic to their cat foods. There still may be some product from the
last manufacturing run on the shelves, but all product with an
expiration date of Dec. 2010 and forward does not have garlic in it.
Garlic is not listed on the label.

Rene S.
April 9th 08, 06:51 PM
> >The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a
> >polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are
> >many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things.
>
> Did you not read the Merck chemical analysis of Curcumin???.
>
> "2744. Curcumin.
> (EE)-1,7-Bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6*heptadiene-3,5-dione, turmeric
> yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006; mol
> wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450

If you can provide specific cites that say *specifically* that
curcumin is toxic to cats, I'll be happy to look at them. If not,
then*there is really*nothing more to discuss.

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 07:34 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...
> >The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a
> >polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are
> >many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things.
>
> Did you not read the Merck chemical analysis of Curcumin???.
>
> "2744. Curcumin.
> (EE)-1,7-Bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6*heptadiene-3,5-dione, turmeric
> yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006;
mol
> wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450

>If you can provide specific cites that say *specifically* that
>curcumin is toxic to cats, I'll be happy to look at them.

Mind boggling! lol


If not,
>then there is really nothing more to discuss.

...obviously not with your head in the sand-- or should I say up your.. no, I
won't say that.

Phil P.
April 9th 08, 07:36 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...
On Apr 9, 11:12 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "Rene S." > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother
> the
> > diehard Wellness fans. Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So
> > quality control is, at the very least, difficult or nonexistant. That
> > doesn't seem to bother the diehard Wellness fans either. Wellness is
made
> by
> > a generic petfood manufacturer- Menu Foods. I'm sure we all heard of
Menu
> > Foods and their lack of quality control.
>
> > I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times
> > about making their own food and their ingredients.
> >Phil,
> >This is not true. I did a quick search of the ingredient lists of the
> >Wellness dry and canned foods for cats and garlic is not listed.
> >http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_index.html
>
> .http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_index.html
>
> Oh yes it certainly is true! Try reading the label on the can.....
>
> http://maxshouse.com/wellnesschickenlable.jpg
>
> Wellness probably took garlic off the ingredients list on their website
> because they probably received numerous emails from people who are
> knowledgeable about feline nutrition, but left in the food because they
know
> most people don't read the labels.
>
> I told you Wellness is sleazy company. Still trust them?

>Wellness has stated that, as of December 2007, they no longer adding
>garlic to their cat foods. There still may be some product from the
>last manufacturing run on the shelves, but all product with an
>expiration date of Dec. 2010 and forward does not have garlic in it.
>Garlic is not listed on the label.

I guess Wellness *did* receive a lot of complaints about the garlic.

Don't you think they should have stated that on their website since there
are still hundreds of tons of pre Dec 2010 product on the shelves? People
who rely on the ingredients lists on their website (like YOU! lol) will not
be getting the product they think they are. Kinda deceptive, don't you
think?

If that's true- which I won't believe until I see it- (I don't trust
anything Wellness says), just think, it took, what >10 years and probably
thousands of complaints for them to finally take the garlic out of their cat
foods. ---and you still trust the company? lol

Phil P.
April 11th 08, 05:21 AM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...

>I refuse to believe they are using a compound to potentially help cats
>that would be toxic to them,

Why wouldn't you? Vets, pharmaceutical companies and petfood manufacturers
have been doing it for years. Many drugs and compounds used to treat
illnesses have adverse effects that are worse than the disease they're
designed to treat.

>and I would tend to believe someone with
the plethora of impressive credentials Dr. Wynn has over some dude on
>the internet.

I hate to break your heart Darlin', but I didn't write the quotes I posted.
But since you think credentials guarantee credibility- which they don't-
I'll list the authors of the quotes for your drooling pleasure:

The first one was written by Konnie H. Plumlee, DVM, MS, DipI ABVT, ACVIM
(Dipl ABVT stands for Diplomate, American Board of Veterinary Toxicologists,
Dipl ACVIM stands for Diplomate, American College of Veterinary
Internal Medicine- that's on the top shelf of veterinary credentials)

The second was written by Roger W. Gfeffer, DVM Diplomate, American College
of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care,

and the third one was written by David C. Dorfman, DVM., Ph.D., Dipl. ABVT,
(another Diplomate, American Board of Veterinary Toxicologists).

Sorry, babe, but two double-boarded Veterinary Toxicologists and an ACVECC
Dipl trumps some chick on the internet with a Pet Owners Home Veterinary
Handbook.

You might want to upgrade your pet owner's paperbacks to a real veterinary
physiology text-- or two. Duke's and Cunningham's are pretty good. This way
you'll learn why many substances that are harmless to most species are toxic
to cats-- and we won't have to have this discussion again.