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Lynne
June 8th 08, 03:18 PM
Hey y'all,

Well Levi has been on the Hill's S/D for 5 weeks or so now. He had his
urine checked on Friday, and there was no evidence of crystals, but his
pH was high again, at 7.65. There were also white blood cells, but not
enough to suggest an active infection (and his temperature was normal).
The vet sent urine off to a lab to double-check. He called me today
to tell me they confirmed his findings. He's a bit perplexed. S/D is
supposed to bring the pH down, but clearly it's not working.

My vet is going to keep Levi on the S/D for another 3 weeks and recheck.
He hasn't been getting ANY other food or treats. What else might be
going on?

Thanks!

Phil P.
June 8th 08, 04:50 PM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> Hey y'all,
>
> Well Levi has been on the Hill's S/D for 5 weeks or so now. He had his
> urine checked on Friday, and there was no evidence of crystals, but his
> pH was high again, at 7.65. There were also white blood cells, but not
> enough to suggest an active infection (and his temperature was normal).
> The vet sent urine off to a lab to double-check. He called me today
> to tell me they confirmed his findings. He's a bit perplexed. S/D is
> supposed to bring the pH down, but clearly it's not working.
>
> My vet is going to keep Levi on the S/D for another 3 weeks and recheck.
> He hasn't been getting ANY other food or treats. What else might be
> going on?
>
> Thanks!

How much time elapsed between his last meal and testing the urine sample?
Feeding can definitely affect urine pH. Feeding releases bicarbonate which
results in a postprandial alkaline tide that causes transient alkalinization
of urine.

Phil

Lynne
June 8th 08, 05:15 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> How much time elapsed between his last meal and testing the urine sample?
> Feeding can definitely affect urine pH. Feeding releases bicarbonate which
> results in a postprandial alkaline tide that causes transient alkalinization
> of urine.

Phil, that's interesting. He ate at ~7 am, testing was done at 2:15 pm.
Is there a possible correlation?

THANK YOU.

jjg
June 8th 08, 06:00 PM
Lynne wrote:

> Phil P. wrote:
>> How much time elapsed between his last meal and testing the urine sample?
>> Feeding can definitely affect urine pH. Feeding releases bicarbonate
>> which results in a postprandial alkaline tide that causes transient
>> alkalinization of urine.
>
> Phil, that's interesting. He ate at ~7 am, testing was done at 2:15 pm.
> Is there a possible correlation?
>
> THANK YOU.

Just a --possibly stupid-- question, but what kind of cats do you have?

Mine is quite old by now, and has a kidney problem, and has eating problems,
but still I found two remainders of mice around the house, and I have good
reasons to think he has eaten them... I have no idea when the latest meal
of our cat was. In fact, when I put his food tray outside the house (he
won't eat inside, for reasons only known to him ;-) ), I can only see that
he eats some of it, and next I see birds feeding from it... so he eats
some, but not all.

So, just wondering, how do you know when the latest meal of your cat was? Do
you always keep him inside? Does he accept that? When we moved, about 5
years ago, we could keep him in for about a week...

Well, cats are miracles on four feet anyway, but one cannot stop
wondering ;-)

Lynne
June 8th 08, 09:59 PM
jjg wrote:

> So, just wondering, how do you know when the latest meal of your cat was? Do
> you always keep him inside? Does he accept that? When we moved, about 5
> years ago, we could keep him in for about a week...

My cats are indoor only and we don't have mice so, so I know when they
eat. Good question, though.

Lynne
June 10th 08, 02:45 PM
Lynne wrote:
> Phil P. wrote:
>> How much time elapsed between his last meal and testing the urine sample?
>> Feeding can definitely affect urine pH. Feeding releases bicarbonate
>> which
>> results in a postprandial alkaline tide that causes transient
>> alkalinization
>> of urine.
>
> Phil, that's interesting. He ate at ~7 am, testing was done at 2:15 pm.
> Is there a possible correlation?
>
> THANK YOU.

Hey Phil, you may not have had time to get back to this thread, but I'm
persistent (and couldn't find clear info on this via Google). Do you
think the timing of his last meal could have effected his urinary pH?

Phil P.
June 10th 08, 03:13 PM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> Lynne wrote:
> > Phil P. wrote:
> >> How much time elapsed between his last meal and testing the urine
sample?
> >> Feeding can definitely affect urine pH. Feeding releases bicarbonate
> >> which
> >> results in a postprandial alkaline tide that causes transient
> >> alkalinization
> >> of urine.
> >
> > Phil, that's interesting. He ate at ~7 am, testing was done at 2:15 pm.
> > Is there a possible correlation?
> >
> > THANK YOU.
>
> Hey Phil, you may not have had time to get back to this thread, but I'm
> persistent (and couldn't find clear info on this via Google).

Try these:

http://www.vet.uga.edu/sams/courses/urology/lectures/Lecture06_FelineIdiopathicCystitis.pdf

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/124/12_Suppl/2652S.pdf


Do you
> think the timing of his last meal could have effected his urinary pH?

Yes. Foodstuffs also exert major effects on urine pH. Sulfur-containing
amino acids, phospholipids, and phosphoproteins which are found in higher
quantities in meats acidify the urine, whereas plant materials alkalinize
it..

You might want to pick up a Hanna ph Checker 1 and a Breeze litterbox so you
can monitor his urine pH whenever he pees and plot the urine pH throughout
the day. Just replace the absorbent pad in the Breeze with a baking or
cookie pan- makes getting urine samples a "breeze"- (pun intended).

Phil

Lynne
June 10th 08, 03:48 PM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> Yes. Foodstuffs also exert major effects on urine pH. Sulfur-containing
> amino acids, phospholipids, and phosphoproteins which are found in higher
> quantities in meats acidify the urine, whereas plant materials alkalinize
> it..
>
> You might want to pick up a Hanna ph Checker 1 and a Breeze litterbox so you
> can monitor his urine pH whenever he pees and plot the urine pH throughout
> the day. Just replace the absorbent pad in the Breeze with a baking or
> cookie pan- makes getting urine samples a "breeze"- (pun intended).
>
> Phil

Phil, thank you so much! You're a constant source of invaluable help on
this ng, and much appreciated.

Janet Boss
June 10th 08, 05:49 PM
In article <[email protected]>, "Phil P." >
wrote:

> Just replace the absorbent pad in the Breeze with a baking or
> cookie pan-

Just curious, do you think the plastic pan would taint the sample?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Phil P.
June 10th 08, 06:17 PM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > Yes. Foodstuffs also exert major effects on urine pH. Sulfur-containing
> > amino acids, phospholipids, and phosphoproteins which are found in
higher
> > quantities in meats acidify the urine, whereas plant materials
alkalinize
> > it..
> >
> > You might want to pick up a Hanna ph Checker 1 and a Breeze litterbox so
you
> > can monitor his urine pH whenever he pees and plot the urine pH
throughout
> > the day. Just replace the absorbent pad in the Breeze with a baking or
> > cookie pan- makes getting urine samples a "breeze"- (pun intended).
> >
> > Phil
>
> Phil, thank you so much! You're a constant source of invaluable help on
> this ng, and much appreciated.

I just re-read your first post and realized I overlooked that he's been
eating s/d! duh. His urine shouldn't have been alkaline 7 hours after
eating s/d.

Does he get very stressed out by trips to the vet? If so, you might want to
check his urine pH at home- or at least collect the sample at home and run
it over to your vet to check. Cats that are very stressed-out can develop
stress-induced respiratory alkalosis that can certainly alkalinize his
urine.

Phil P.
June 10th 08, 06:22 PM
"Janet Boss" > wrote in message
...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Phil P." >
> wrote:
>
> > Just replace the absorbent pad in the Breeze with a baking or
> > cookie pan-
>
> Just curious, do you think the plastic pan would taint the sample?

Baking pans and cookie trays are usually made of aluminum since they go into
an oven. I don't think urine is affected by plastic since most syringes used
in cystocentesis and urine sample containers are made of plastic.

Janet Boss
June 10th 08, 06:27 PM
In article <[email protected]>,
"Phil P." > wrote:

>
> Baking pans and cookie trays are usually made of aluminum since they go into
> an oven. I don't think urine is affected by plastic since most syringes used
> in cystocentesis and urine sample containers are made of plastic.

That's why I was confused. Why not just use the empty plastic tray that
is with the box instead of a cookie sheet?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Phil P.
June 10th 08, 06:40 PM
"Janet Boss" > wrote in message
...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> >
> > Baking pans and cookie trays are usually made of aluminum since they go
into
> > an oven. I don't think urine is affected by plastic since most syringes
used
> > in cystocentesis and urine sample containers are made of plastic.
>
> That's why I was confused. Why not just use the empty plastic tray that
> is with the box instead of a cookie sheet?

I guess you could. I just find it easier to pour the urine into a jar from a
cookie pan.

hamandcheese
June 10th 08, 09:18 PM
Janet Boss > wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, "Phil P." >
>wrote:
>
>> Just replace the absorbent pad in the Breeze with a baking or
>> cookie pan-
>
>Just curious, do you think the plastic pan would taint the sample?

If your cat will let you get real close when he is in the litter box
you may want to see if you can stick a container under his butt area
while he is peeing. When I had a diabetic cat I used to catch urine
samples with an oversize white cappuccino cup, the ones that look like
a miniature chamber pot and good ol' Griffin would let me reach under
and all he did was lift his butt a little higher.

-mhd

Lynne
June 11th 08, 02:16 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> I just re-read your first post and realized I overlooked that he's been
> eating s/d! duh. His urine shouldn't have been alkaline 7 hours after
> eating s/d.
>
> Does he get very stressed out by trips to the vet? If so, you might want to
> check his urine pH at home- or at least collect the sample at home and run
> it over to your vet to check. Cats that are very stressed-out can develop
> stress-induced respiratory alkalosis that can certainly alkalinize his
> urine.

Levi is a very easily stressed kitty, and that visit was particularly
hard for him for a variety of reasons.

The vet and I believe the whole reason Levi got crystals was because of
the stress of a home remodel. He hid in the basement and barely ate and
drank for 3 weeks when I had my floors replaced... having FHV doesn't
help, I'm amazed he didn't get sicker.

I will mention this to our vet and I will also test his urine pH at
home. The results were perplexing because at the last visit his pH was
lower than normal... (and he had both types of crystals).

Thanks again, Phil.

Lynne
June 11th 08, 02:17 AM
hamandcheese wrote:

> If your cat will let you get real close when he is in the litter box
> you may want to see if you can stick a container under his butt area
> while he is peeing. When I had a diabetic cat I used to catch urine
> samples with an oversize white cappuccino cup, the ones that look like
> a miniature chamber pot and good ol' Griffin would let me reach under
> and all he did was lift his butt a little higher.
>
> -mhd

Levi just might... the little weirdo always runs to use the litter box
in the master bath whenever I go in there. (He's actually pretty darn
cute about it.) This is how I knew he was having trouble passing urine,
thank goodness, and caught it before he was completely blocked.

Thanks for the suggestion. :-)