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jmc
September 7th 08, 04:39 AM
Meep, spayed female, 12 years old, cystitis. Has attacks when fed dry,
even the veterinary urinary kind.

So, of course, I feed her wet. Well, I try to. She won't eat even the
flavors she seems to like, consistently. The last time I took her to the
vet, the vet confirmed she's a little thinner than she'd like to see.

Problem is, if I supplement her diet with more than the 1/2 a treat ball
of kibbles (something like a tablespoon), she stops eating her wet food
altogether, hoping for more dry. She'll even do that some days when she
gets the treat ball - so she doesn't get the treat ball if there's wet
food in the bowl - just more wet food.

I give her the ball in the am, and feed 1/2 - 3/4 larger can in the
evenings - she won't eat a full one, and she won't eat more than a tiny
bit of wet during the day, either, though I keep trying to feed it to her.

I'm at wit's end. She's not emaciated, but she is thin, and since she
refuses what's put out, on average 2-3 times per week, she's not
gaining, either. And I'm spending twice as much on cat food as she's
actually eating.

I add warm/hot water to try to make it palatable - that's helped a bit,
but not enough.

I just don't know what to do. She'd pretty much rather go hungry, than
eat wet food, most days. But if I give in to her stubbornness, she'll
start having cystitis attacks again. I can't win!

Any suggestions?

jmc

-Lost
September 7th 08, 08:09 AM
Response to jmc >:

> Meep, spayed female, 12 years old, cystitis. Has attacks when
> fed dry, even the veterinary urinary kind.

Hi, Meep!

<snip>

> Problem is, if I supplement her diet with more than the 1/2 a
> treat ball of kibbles (something like a tablespoon), she stops
> eating her wet food altogether, hoping for more dry. She'll
> even do that some days when she gets the treat ball - so she
> doesn't get the treat ball if there's wet food in the bowl -
> just more wet food.

I read on here somewhere (forget where) where someone recommended
grinding the kibble to dust and sprinkling it over the wet.

That didn't work for me -- Gabby had to actually SEE the kibble
before trying wet. Phat Kat would a piece of wood if I dipped it
in tuna juice.

I kept mixing 10-15 pieces of kibble into his food for some days,
then 10 pieces, then 5, and now I can feed him entirely wet with
their L-Lysine and "Pet Calm."

<snip>

> I just don't know what to do. She'd pretty much rather go
> hungry, than eat wet food, most days. But if I give in to her
> stubbornness, she'll start having cystitis attacks again. I
> can't win!
>
> Any suggestions?

This is probably fairly stupid, but it's evident you know to weigh
my words. ; ) Could you hold out on feeding her until the last
possible moment? Make her really hungry? Or just sprinkle a
kibble or two on top of wet? Powdered kibble across the food?

cshenk has some fairly sophisticated (in my opinion) methods of
distributing dashi to her kitty -- a tasty broth perhaps? No
onions of course.

Kitties incur liver failure at around 20 hours if I remember
correctly when not fed... do not remember the exacts on that one.

On a side note I just found out something really crappy. Not sure
how valid though as I've only found one article.

"A study in the March 15, 2004 AVMA Journal (Edinboro, et al.)
pointed out a correlation between the use of pop-top cat food cans
and the subsequent development of hyperthyroidism in cats. This
study merely points out a statistical correlation and doesn't prove
that this relationship is certain but if you wish to be cautious
about the possibility there is no harm in switching to cans that
have to be opened with a can opener. Most cat foods are available
in both types of cans, although it may be necessary to buy bigger
can sizes to avoid the pop-tops."

Apparently "bisphenol-A" is used to seal the cans. ALSO, I see
that my fuggin' wet food has ASH and TAURINE. I don't know the
full skivvy on ash but taurine is in energy drinks... WTF?!

Any suggestions of a quality wet food for me? : )

And I hope I was at least a little helpful!

Take care you two.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

jmc
September 7th 08, 01:47 PM
Suddenly, without warning, -Lost exclaimed (9/7/2008 3:09 AM):
> Response to jmc >:
>
>> Meep, spayed female, 12 years old, cystitis. Has attacks when
>> fed dry, even the veterinary urinary kind.
>
> Hi, Meep!
>
> <snip>
>

Hallo!

>> Problem is, if I supplement her diet with more than the 1/2 a
>> treat ball of kibbles (something like a tablespoon), she stops
>> eating her wet food altogether, hoping for more dry. She'll
>> even do that some days when she gets the treat ball - so she
>> doesn't get the treat ball if there's wet food in the bowl -
>> just more wet food.
>
> I read on here somewhere (forget where) where someone recommended
> grinding the kibble to dust and sprinkling it over the wet.
>

Sometimes she'll eat some of the wet if I drop a couple pieces of kibble
on it - she eats the kibble, I think, and is too hungry to stop. She
seems wise to this ploy now though, and lately won't go after the
kibble, even if it's her personal Kitty Crack - Greenies.

> That didn't work for me -- Gabby had to actually SEE the kibble
> before trying wet. Phat Kat would a piece of wood if I dipped it
> in tuna juice.
>
> I kept mixing 10-15 pieces of kibble into his food for some days,
> then 10 pieces, then 5, and now I can feed him entirely wet with
> their L-Lysine and "Pet Calm."
>
> <snip>
>
>> I just don't know what to do. She'd pretty much rather go
>> hungry, than eat wet food, most days. But if I give in to her
>> stubbornness, she'll start having cystitis attacks again. I
>> can't win!
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>
> This is probably fairly stupid, but it's evident you know to weigh
> my words. ; ) Could you hold out on feeding her until the last
> possible moment? Make her really hungry? Or just sprinkle a
> kibble or two on top of wet? Powdered kibble across the food?
>

She does this on her own. She almost never eats what I've set down,
though she does the whole "hurry up I'm STARVING!" thing as I'm
preparing dinner.

> cshenk has some fairly sophisticated (in my opinion) methods of
> distributing dashi to her kitty -- a tasty broth perhaps? No
> onions of course.
>
> Kitties incur liver failure at around 20 hours if I remember
> correctly when not fed... do not remember the exacts on that one.
>

I don't think it's a certainty, and yes I do worry about this.

> On a side note I just found out something really crappy. Not sure
> how valid though as I've only found one article.
>
> "A study in the March 15, 2004 AVMA Journal (Edinboro, et al.)
> pointed out a correlation between the use of pop-top cat food cans
> and the subsequent development of hyperthyroidism in cats. This
> study merely points out a statistical correlation and doesn't prove
> that this relationship is certain but if you wish to be cautious
> about the possibility there is no harm in switching to cans that
> have to be opened with a can opener. Most cat foods are available
> in both types of cans, although it may be necessary to buy bigger
> can sizes to avoid the pop-tops."
>
> Apparently "bisphenol-A" is used to seal the cans. ALSO, I see
> that my fuggin' wet food has ASH and TAURINE. I don't know the
> full skivvy on ash but taurine is in energy drinks... WTF?!
>

Ah, great. So cystitis on dry, and hyperthyroidism on wet. Gahh!
there's something about the big canned foods she doesn't like though -
she'll eat the first serving (yea, the bit touching the lid), but I've
always ended up throwing away at least half the big cans.

> Any suggestions of a quality wet food for me? : )
>

Wellness is pretty good. And she snarfed up the little bag of Nutro I
got from the cat show yesterday.


> And I hope I was at least a little helpful!
>

A little :) I might try the kibble dust idea. Thanks!

> Take care you two.
>

and you three.

jmc

Jean B.
September 7th 08, 05:58 PM
jmc wrote:
> Meep, spayed female, 12 years old, cystitis. Has attacks when fed dry,
> even the veterinary urinary kind.
>
> So, of course, I feed her wet. Well, I try to. She won't eat even the
> flavors she seems to like, consistently. The last time I took her to the
> vet, the vet confirmed she's a little thinner than she'd like to see.
>
> Problem is, if I supplement her diet with more than the 1/2 a treat ball
> of kibbles (something like a tablespoon), she stops eating her wet food
> altogether, hoping for more dry. She'll even do that some days when she
> gets the treat ball - so she doesn't get the treat ball if there's wet
> food in the bowl - just more wet food.
>
> I give her the ball in the am, and feed 1/2 - 3/4 larger can in the
> evenings - she won't eat a full one, and she won't eat more than a tiny
> bit of wet during the day, either, though I keep trying to feed it to her.
>
> I'm at wit's end. She's not emaciated, but she is thin, and since she
> refuses what's put out, on average 2-3 times per week, she's not
> gaining, either. And I'm spending twice as much on cat food as she's
> actually eating.
>
> I add warm/hot water to try to make it palatable - that's helped a bit,
> but not enough.
>
> I just don't know what to do. She'd pretty much rather go hungry, than
> eat wet food, most days. But if I give in to her stubbornness, she'll
> start having cystitis attacks again. I can't win!
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> jmc

No solution, but you have my empathy. Meep is like Ming--and I
have thought this for some years now.

--
Jean B.

---MIKE---
September 7th 08, 06:53 PM
>ALSO, I see that my fuggin' wet food has
> ASH and TAURINE. I don't know the full
> skivvy on ash but taurine is in energy
> drinks... WTF?!

Taurine is an essential nutrient for cats. Ash is nothing more than the
residue after the food is totally burned so it's not a consideration.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Spot[_2_]
September 7th 08, 11:03 PM
Have you tried microwaving the food for a bit? Heating it makes it smell
stronger the they sometimes eat a little heartier.

Celeste

"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Meep, spayed female, 12 years old, cystitis. Has attacks when fed dry,
> even the veterinary urinary kind.
>
> So, of course, I feed her wet. Well, I try to. She won't eat even the
> flavors she seems to like, consistently. The last time I took her to the
> vet, the vet confirmed she's a little thinner than she'd like to see.
>
> Problem is, if I supplement her diet with more than the 1/2 a treat ball
> of kibbles (something like a tablespoon), she stops eating her wet food
> altogether, hoping for more dry. She'll even do that some days when she
> gets the treat ball - so she doesn't get the treat ball if there's wet
> food in the bowl - just more wet food.
>
> I give her the ball in the am, and feed 1/2 - 3/4 larger can in the
> evenings - she won't eat a full one, and she won't eat more than a tiny
> bit of wet during the day, either, though I keep trying to feed it to her.
>
> I'm at wit's end. She's not emaciated, but she is thin, and since she
> refuses what's put out, on average 2-3 times per week, she's not gaining,
> either. And I'm spending twice as much on cat food as she's actually
> eating.
>
> I add warm/hot water to try to make it palatable - that's helped a bit,
> but not enough.
>
> I just don't know what to do. She'd pretty much rather go hungry, than
> eat wet food, most days. But if I give in to her stubbornness, she'll
> start having cystitis attacks again. I can't win!
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> jmc

cshenk
September 7th 08, 11:47 PM
"-Lost" wrote
> jmc

>> doesn't get the treat ball if there's wet food in the bowl -
>> just more wet food.

Best you can do JMC. What I've found is most of the cats I have had, refuse
to eat the *same* food meal after meal. Current one even requires brand
swaps (minor differences I assume). If I feed her chicken one day, next day
has to be beef or fish or liver etc. She will tolerate the rest of the can
from the morning that evening, but not same food next day.

> I read on here somewhere (forget where) where someone recommended
> grinding the kibble to dust and sprinkling it over the wet.

For the taste? I though it was mostly the 'crunch' they wanted?

>> I just don't know what to do. She'd pretty much rather go
>> hungry, than eat wet food, most days. But if I give in to her
>> stubbornness, she'll start having cystitis attacks again. I
>> can't win!
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>
> This is probably fairly stupid, but it's evident you know to weigh
> my words. ; ) Could you hold out on feeding her until the last
> possible moment? Make her really hungry? Or just sprinkle a
> kibble or two on top of wet? Powdered kibble across the food?

I think she's tried all that.

> cshenk has some fairly sophisticated (in my opinion) methods of
> distributing dashi to her kitty -- a tasty broth perhaps? No
> onions of course.

Or salt. jmc has those ideas from here before and I think may have tried
them a bit but frankly, few people really make home made broth that often so
are used to cans or bullion cubes, neither of which tend to be salt low
enough for pets for long term usage. Lets face it, I'm both *cheap* and a
tweaker so long ago I learned how to spend 5 mins tossing a chicken carcass
in a crockpot with some water and let it do it's own thing. Dipping out a
few TB for a cat is no bother here. I save off some in a special ice cube
tray the dump it over into a big bag once frozen, and spice the rest a bit.
I pour theirs off before I defat (they like it and it's not bad for them to
have a little natural fat).

I have a pot right now going, started it last afternoon. Pork bones with a
bit of meat (after chopping down some pork for something else off the bone).
I tossed in an extra beef marrow bone so it will be nice and thick as Cash
heals up. (Daisy is tender mouthed a bit too just now, having had her
first dental work ever at about 2 years of age).

Dinner for them tonight was fatty pork broth with the meat (about 2.5 TB)
shredded for Daisy and some for Cash-pup as well. Cash-pup got the marrow
pluck that hadnt entirely disintegrated into the broth. I have another 1.5
gallons for us. I saved off 2 cups for them, and just added the onions and
carrots and such to the rest to deepen it for our use.

> Kitties incur liver failure at around 20 hours if I remember
> correctly when not fed... do not remember the exacts on that one.

I think it's more like 2 days, unless here are some special problems such as
radical underfeeding before hand.

> pointed out a correlation between the use of pop-top cat food cans
> and the subsequent development of hyperthyroidism in cats. This
> study merely points out a statistical correlation and doesn't prove

Might have more to do with the types of foods that have pop-top cans I
think?

jmc
September 8th 08, 12:48 AM
Suddenly, without warning, cshenk exclaimed (9/7/2008 6:47 PM):
> "-Lost" wrote
>> jmc
>
>>> doesn't get the treat ball if there's wet food in the bowl -
>>> just more wet food.
>
> Best you can do JMC. What I've found is most of the cats I have had, refuse
> to eat the *same* food meal after meal. Current one even requires brand
> swaps (minor differences I assume). If I feed her chicken one day, next day
> has to be beef or fish or liver etc. She will tolerate the rest of the can
> from the morning that evening, but not same food next day.
>
>> I read on here somewhere (forget where) where someone recommended
>> grinding the kibble to dust and sprinkling it over the wet.
>
> For the taste? I though it was mostly the 'crunch' they wanted?
>

Prolly. Dunno, haven't tried it yet.

>>> I just don't know what to do. She'd pretty much rather go
>>> hungry, than eat wet food, most days. But if I give in to her
>>> stubbornness, she'll start having cystitis attacks again. I
>>> can't win!
>>>
>>> Any suggestions?
>> This is probably fairly stupid, but it's evident you know to weigh
>> my words. ; ) Could you hold out on feeding her until the last
>> possible moment? Make her really hungry? Or just sprinkle a
>> kibble or two on top of wet? Powdered kibble across the food?
>
> I think she's tried all that.
>

Pretty much.

>> cshenk has some fairly sophisticated (in my opinion) methods of
>> distributing dashi to her kitty -- a tasty broth perhaps? No
>> onions of course.
>
> Or salt. jmc has those ideas from here before and I think may have tried
> them a bit but frankly, few people really make home made broth that often so
> are used to cans or bullion cubes, neither of which tend to be salt low
> enough for pets for long term usage. Lets face it, I'm both *cheap* and a
> tweaker so long ago I learned how to spend 5 mins tossing a chicken carcass
> in a crockpot with some water and let it do it's own thing. Dipping out a
> few TB for a cat is no bother here. I save off some in a special ice cube
> tray the dump it over into a big bag once frozen, and spice the rest a bit.
> I pour theirs off before I defat (they like it and it's not bad for them to
> have a little natural fat).
>
> I have a pot right now going, started it last afternoon. Pork bones with a
> bit of meat (after chopping down some pork for something else off the bone).
> I tossed in an extra beef marrow bone so it will be nice and thick as Cash
> heals up. (Daisy is tender mouthed a bit too just now, having had her
> first dental work ever at about 2 years of age).
>
> Dinner for them tonight was fatty pork broth with the meat (about 2.5 TB)
> shredded for Daisy and some for Cash-pup as well. Cash-pup got the marrow
> pluck that hadnt entirely disintegrated into the broth. I have another 1.5
> gallons for us. I saved off 2 cups for them, and just added the onions and
> carrots and such to the rest to deepen it for our use.
>

I do wish Meep would like stuff like that. She'll drink tuna water, and
eat tuna, but as we all know I can't feed her that much. She turns up
her nose at chicken, beef and the like, cooked or uncooked. Even tried
"pet mince" and kangaroo. No dice.

>> Kitties incur liver failure at around 20 hours if I remember
>> correctly when not fed... do not remember the exacts on that one.
>
> I think it's more like 2 days, unless here are some special problems such as
> radical underfeeding before hand.
>

I think obesity is actually a contributing factor. Not one of Meep's
problems at the moment.

>> pointed out a correlation between the use of pop-top cat food cans
>> and the subsequent development of hyperthyroidism in cats. This
>> study merely points out a statistical correlation and doesn't prove
>
> Might have more to do with the types of foods that have pop-top cans I
> think?
>
>
Why do you think that? Wellness and other high-end foods use pop-tops.
AFAIK, all the small and tuna-can sized cat foods have pop-tops, only
the soup-can sized ones need a can opener.

jmc

-Lost
September 8th 08, 06:57 AM
Response to jmc >:

<snip>
>>> I read on here somewhere (forget where) where someone
>>> recommended grinding the kibble to dust and sprinkling it over
>>> the wet.
>>
>> For the taste? I though it was mostly the 'crunch' they
>> wanted?
>
> Prolly. Dunno, haven't tried it yet.

Yeah, I've no clue. I barely remember reading it -- it was in here
though if someone were brave enough to Google. I'm guessing it's
not that important though. : P

I thought it may be the crunch, but then I read that dry food was
higher in fat than wet (really?) so thought it might be just taste.
*shrugs*

<snip>

>>> pointed out a correlation between the use of pop-top cat food
>>> cans and the subsequent development of hyperthyroidism in
>>> cats. This study merely points out a statistical correlation
>>> and doesn't prove
>>
>> Might have more to do with the types of foods that have pop-top
>> cans I think?
>>
> Why do you think that? Wellness and other high-end foods use
> pop-tops.
> AFAIK, all the small and tuna-can sized cat foods have
> pop-tops, only
> the soup-can sized ones need a can opener.

And I've no clue here either. : P I ran across it maybe an hour
before posting about it. I was researching more food alternatives
since I heard ash and taurine was bad. I think --MIKE-- cleared
that up though (still checking to be sure, but I trust his
judgment).

Here's the link for those interested (I haven't read it all).

http://www.vetinfo4cats.com/ctoxin.html

The #anchor link didn't work so well for me (maybe because I have
script turned off) so I scrolled.

Take care gang.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

jmc
September 8th 08, 10:23 AM
OT, geeky answer

Suddenly, without warning, -Lost exclaimed (9/8/2008 1:57 AM):

>
> The #anchor link didn't work so well for me (maybe because I have
> script turned off) so I scrolled.
>
> Take care gang.
>

#anchor doesn't use scripting - it's simple html. The # means "'anchor'
is inside this page, go there, please"

But I'm guessing you know that, since I just realized it's not likely
the name of the anchor was, well, "anchor" :)

jmc

cshenk
September 9th 08, 12:12 AM
"jmc" wrote
> cshenk exclaimed (9/7/2008 6:47 PM):

>> Best you can do JMC. What I've found is most of the cats I have had,
>> refuse to eat the *same* food meal after meal. Current one even requires
>> brand swaps (minor differences I assume). If I feed her chicken one day,
>> next day has to be beef or fish or liver etc.

>>> I read on here somewhere (forget where) where someone recommended
>>> grinding the kibble to dust and sprinkling it over the wet.
>>
>> For the taste? I though it was mostly the 'crunch' they wanted?

> Prolly. Dunno, haven't tried it yet.

Worth trying then? Doesnt seem harmful to try pulverizing a few dry kibbles
for a test of it.

>>> cshenk has some fairly sophisticated (in my opinion) methods of
>>> distributing dashi to her kitty -- a tasty broth perhaps? No
>>> onions of course.
>>
>> Or salt. jmc has those ideas from here before and I think may have tried
>> them a bit but frankly, few people really make home made broth that often
>> so

(snip) on request, can give many broth tips if you want to try that, but
mostly they are designed to get extra water in a cat. Though with some
nutritional value, they arent the same as real 'food'.

> I do wish Meep would like stuff like that. She'll drink tuna water, and
> eat tuna, but as we all know I can't feed her that much. She turns up her
> nose at chicken, beef and the like, cooked or uncooked. Even tried "pet
> mince" and kangaroo. No dice.

Idea here. Please run it by your vet first to see if it seems workable with
the special needs of Meep. Dashi 'seems' right up her ally since 'fish
stuff' is about all she likes. Though made with bonito, it's a broth and
less fish gets in there. In fact, I note no actual 'fish' taste to it but
her taster might be more fine-tuned about that. You'll have to get a box
and show the ingredient and dietary info on it to the vet. For about $2.50
you should be able to get a small box at a local asian grocery type place.
This will come in 1 or more pouches in the box and since you'll be making
just a little, shift it to an empty spice container or even an empty salt
shaker. Ignore the directions and make it 1 TS a cup (warn the vet of the
intention so she can adjust the info on the label). (1/2 TS in 1/2 cup
etc). You can just nuke the water hot like you might heat water for tea etc
if you like then sprinkle in the amount called for.

Now, to use this, add 1-2 TB of room temp dashi to the wet food. Stirring
optional but try stirred and unstirred to see what seems to work.

It *might* work, and has the benefit of being easy for you to make a week at
a time batch, for pretty cheap (so not out alot of money if it doesnt work
and hey, you can make a cup for yourself from it too if you want to try a
different food!).

*My* vet says every 3rd day is fine, but then again she knows I have all
sorts of alternative broths (duck, pork, chicken, beef marrow etc) so
prefers I not go too heavy on the fish stock types. Daisy-cat is picky in
her own way, but not like Meep.

>>> Kitties incur liver failure at around 20 hours if I remember
>>> correctly when not fed... do not remember the exacts on that one.
>>
>> I think it's more like 2 days, unless here are some special problems such
>> as radical underfeeding before hand.

> I think obesity is actually a contributing factor. Not one of Meep's
> problems at the moment.

Not really sure.

>>> pointed out a correlation between the use of pop-top cat food cans
>>> and the subsequent development of hyperthyroidism in cats. This
>>> study merely points out a statistical correlation and doesn't prove
>>
>> Might have more to do with the types of foods that have pop-top cans I
>> think?

> Why do you think that? Wellness and other high-end foods use pop-tops.
> AFAIK, all the small and tuna-can sized cat foods have pop-tops, only the
> soup-can sized ones need a can opener.

I guess it's because here, the less expensive ones tend to be pop-tops and
the better ones are normally not? I have not seen 'wellness' here so never
tried it.