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View Full Version : Hills Prescription Diet and our Vet. HELP!!!


sideshowhaas
October 29th 08, 04:10 PM
Looking for advise.

Last year we had our male cat into the Animal Hospital for removal of
blockage in his UT. The Animal Hospital recommended Hill's s/d to
start with and then move him to c/d. After the s/d, our vet moved him
to w/d because he was slightly overweight. He gained weight on w/d and
our other cat (she) lost weight. We asked about switching to c/d but
were told he should stay on w/d. Therefore we reduced the amount he
gets and added a higher calorie food to her diet (she gets fed on a
pedestal to keep her food separate). It seems to have worked, he has
lost a #, she has gained a bit (she is very petite). .

We were under the impression that w/d would help with the crystals,
but now find out the w/d does nothing for them, only weight, which
actually had the opposite affect on him.

Our main concern is the crystals reforming in his penis (ouch). Am I
correct in thinking he should be on c/d to prevent crystals, and with
controlled feeding, to prevent weight gain? I also read in this forum
(7 May 99) that c/d was reformulated so it does not tend to put on
weight like it used to. Any truth to this?

Thank you in advance.

---MIKE---
October 29th 08, 04:48 PM
Most of your problems could be resolved by feeding a canned diet. I
would recommend Wellness. Feed twice a day and don't free feed any dry.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

cybercat
October 29th 08, 05:50 PM
"sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
...
> Looking for advise.
>
> Last year we had our male cat into the Animal Hospital for removal of
> blockage in his UT.

Mike is right.

Matthew[_3_]
October 29th 08, 05:57 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Looking for advise.
>>
>> Last year we had our male cat into the Animal Hospital for removal of
>> blockage in his UT.
>
> Mike is right.
HOLY CRAP Cybercat agreed with someone ;-) Just kidding I think maybe
could be < evil laugh>

sideshowhaas
October 29th 08, 06:00 PM
Is the Wellness better than Hill's? Why all wet food? He does prefer
his dry food and he drinks a good amount of water.

cybercat
October 29th 08, 06:01 PM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
ng.com...
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Looking for advise.
>>>
>>> Last year we had our male cat into the Animal Hospital for removal of
>>> blockage in his UT.
>>
>> Mike is right.
> HOLY CRAP Cybercat agreed with someone ;-) Just kidding I think maybe
> could be < evil laugh>

You wicked, wicked man. ;)

cybercat
October 29th 08, 06:06 PM
"sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
...
> Is the Wellness better than Hill's? Why all wet food? He does prefer
> his dry food and he drinks a good amount of water.

Cats are carnivores, they need meat. Cats never drink enough water to keep
them optimally healthy, particularly male cats due to their blockage
leanings. You can Google up a whole bunch of information about this, in this
particular group.

Outside of this, the good effects of canned are clear in no time, the
increased energy levels, shiny coat, and the eagerness of the cats at
mealtime.

The chief draw of dry is convenience for the human. Cats are creatures of
habit and get used to it, but few will turn down canned when given a choice.

Start with putting down canned and a little dry. Feed 12 hours apart.
Wellness is fine, but I have cats that thrive on the brands of Fancy Feast
that have beef and chicken as first ingredients.

joe[_2_]
October 29th 08, 06:18 PM
sideshowhaas wrote:

> Looking for advise.
>
> Last year we had our male cat into the Animal Hospital for removal
> of blockage in his UT. The Animal Hospital recommended Hill's s/d to
> start with and then move him to c/d. After the s/d, our vet moved
> him to w/d because he was slightly overweight. He gained weight on
> w/d and our other cat (she) lost weight. We asked about switching to
> c/d but were told he should stay on w/d. Therefore we reduced the
> amount he gets and added a higher calorie food to her diet (she gets
> fed on a pedestal to keep her food separate). It seems to have
> worked, he has lost a #, she has gained a bit (she is very petite).
> .
>
> We were under the impression that w/d would help with the crystals,
> but now find out the w/d does nothing for them, only weight, which
> actually had the opposite affect on him.
>
> Our main concern is the crystals reforming in his penis (ouch). Am I
> correct in thinking he should be on c/d to prevent crystals, and
> with controlled feeding, to prevent weight gain? I also read in this
> forum (7 May 99) that c/d was reformulated so it does not tend to
> put on weight like it used to. Any truth to this?
>
> Thank you in advance.

I was told by our vet in a similar situation that c/d is not
sufficiently nutritionally complete for long-term use. I think that
its protein content is too low, but it may have been something else.

Rene S.
October 29th 08, 06:58 PM
On Oct 29, 1:00*pm, sideshowhaas > wrote:
> Is the Wellness better than Hill's? Why all wet food? He does prefer
> his dry food and he drinks a good amount of water.

Wellness (and other brands, such as Nature's Variety) is MUCH better
than Hills. Look at the ingredient list on the Hills vs. Wellness.

Canned food will help your cat on many levels:
1. Feeding canned will assure he gets more moisture in his diet (which
he needs with his urinary issues). Canned food is approx. 70% moisture
while dry is maybe 10%. They can't drink enough to make up the
difference.

2. A high-quality, grain free cat food will help him keep off the
extra weight. My oldest cat had this problem. See his web site for
info on weight loss: http://community-2.webtv.net/getcathelp/tucker/

3. Dry food is not species appropriate. This is a must-read article on
cat nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org/

4. Your cat will have a healthier coat.

Another important note: I have learned that sadly, many vets are just
not knowledgeable about feline nutrition and only try to sell what's
on their shelves. It's up to YOU, the owner, to become educated and
make the best food choice for your cat. A really good book to read
(that includes great info on feline nutrition) is Your Cat. Here's a
link to the book on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312358024/ref=s9newr_c2_img2-rfc_p-3102_p?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0EXCMFGC9KWJ7NN5KNGR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=279438201&pf_rd_i=507846

cybercat
October 29th 08, 07:14 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...
On Oct 29, 1:00 pm, sideshowhaas > wrote:
> Is the Wellness better than Hill's? Why all wet food? He does prefer
> his dry food and he drinks a good amount of water.

Wellness (and other brands, such as Nature's Variety) is MUCH better
than Hills. Look at the ingredient list on the Hills vs. Wellness.

Canned food will help your cat on many levels:
1. Feeding canned will assure he gets more moisture in his diet (which
he needs with his urinary issues). Canned food is approx. 70% moisture
while dry is maybe 10%. They can't drink enough to make up the
difference.

2. A high-quality, grain free cat food will help him keep off the
extra weight. My oldest cat had this problem. See his web site for
info on weight loss: http://community-2.webtv.net/getcathelp/tucker/

3. Dry food is not species appropriate. This is a must-read article on
cat nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org/

4. Your cat will have a healthier coat.

Another important note: I have learned that sadly, many vets are just
not knowledgeable about feline nutrition and only try to sell what's
on their shelves. It's up to YOU, the owner, to become educated and
make the best food choice for your cat. A really good book to read
(that includes great info on feline nutrition) is Your Cat. Here's a
link to the book on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312358024/ref=s9newr_c2_img2-rfc_p-3102_p?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0EXCMFGC9KWJ7NN5KNGR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=279438201&pf_rd_i=507846


+++++++++++++++++

Thanks, Rene. Exactly what was needed.

sideshowhaas
October 29th 08, 07:31 PM
Thanks to all so far.

The weight lose is working with controlled feeding.

Any particular wet food to help prevent the formation of the crystals?
Or will the additional moisture in the wet food, along with daily
water intake (maybe 6oz/day) do the trick? Any ingredients to stay
away from?

Rene S.
October 29th 08, 08:43 PM
On Oct 29, 2:31*pm, sideshowhaas > wrote:
> Thanks to all so far.
>
> The weight lose is working with controlled feeding.
>
> Any particular wet food to help prevent the formation of the crystals?
> Or will the additional moisture in the wet food, along with daily
> water intake (maybe 6oz/day) do the trick? Any ingredients to stay
> away from?

If you feed your cat all wet food, he probably won't need to drink
much (if any) from the water bowl. I highly suggest finding a food
that is grain free. Corn especially is not a good ingredient--it's a
cheap filler.

Some excellent brands, all of which I feed or have fed:
Wellness (grain free, some of the canned flavors do have grains, check
the label for the yellow "grain free" note)
Nature's Variety (canned or raw)
Innova Evo (though higher in calories)
Innova 95 (thoughh higher in calories)

CatNipped[_2_]
October 29th 08, 09:40 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...
On Oct 29, 2:31 pm, sideshowhaas > wrote:
> Thanks to all so far.
>
> The weight lose is working with controlled feeding.
>
> Any particular wet food to help prevent the formation of the crystals?
> Or will the additional moisture in the wet food, along with daily
> water intake (maybe 6oz/day) do the trick? Any ingredients to stay
> away from?

If you feed your cat all wet food, he probably won't need to drink
much (if any) from the water bowl. I highly suggest finding a food
that is grain free. Corn especially is not a good ingredient--it's a
cheap filler.

Some excellent brands, all of which I feed or have fed:
Wellness (grain free, some of the canned flavors do have grains, check
the label for the yellow "grain free" note)
Nature's Variety (canned or raw)
Innova Evo (though higher in calories)
Innova 95 (thoughh higher in calories)

===============================================

And as Cybercat said, some flavors of Fancy Feast are excellent sources of
feline nutrition (and I've never known a cat who turned down FF - even those
resistant to changing to a canned food diet). It's also more affordable in
a lot of places.

Just be sure to look at labels and check that the first three ingredients
are meat or meat by-products (organ meat, broth, etc.).

Hugs,

CatNipped

sideshowhaas
October 29th 08, 09:55 PM
Any particular wet food to help prevent the formation of the crystals?

sideshowhaas
October 29th 08, 10:13 PM
By the way, they are struvite crystals.

Outsider
October 30th 08, 01:23 AM
sideshowhaas > wrote in news:048d3e43-174f-45ab-
:

> Is the Wellness better than Hill's? Why all wet food? He does prefer
> his dry food and he drinks a good amount of water.


You think he does but it is very likely he gets much less water than if he
is fed canned. Cats have a poor thirst reflex because they are designed to
eat dead animals who are largely water. You can even add more water to the
canned to make it even better. Water is very very important to your cat.

dejablues[_4_]
October 30th 08, 02:55 AM
"sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
...
> By the way, they are struvite crystals.

IME with a crystal-prone cat, you can feed wet food, avoid dry, encourage
the drinking of more water ( by feeding salty snacks and making sure the
water you provide is to your cats liking like uber-fresh, running as from a
faucet or tap, a filled bathroom sink), and still get a cat that produces
crystals.
Dietary fiddling is of limited value, so keep a close eye on the cat and
his bathroom habits.

Rene S.
October 30th 08, 07:27 PM
On Oct 29, 4:55*pm, sideshowhaas > wrote:
> Any particular wet food to help prevent the formation of the crystals?

Sideshow: As long as the food is wet and high quality, any brand will
be better (IMO) than the dry Hills you're feeding. The key is to feed
a species-appropriate, liquid-rich diet.

Phil P.
October 31st 08, 07:49 PM
"sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
...
> Is the Wellness better than Hill's?

Wellness isn't much better- it contains more plant material than meat
products. You want a diet with a higher meat content. Meat contains more
sulfur-containing amino acids, phospholipids, and phosphoproteins that
acidify the urine, Plant material has an alkalinizing effect. Since your
cat has a struvite problem, you want to keep his urine acidic.

Why all wet food? He does prefer
> his dry food and he drinks a good amount of water.

He may drink a lot of water but his total daily water intake and turnover is
a lot less than if he ate canned food.

Here's an excerpt from my website: http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
(Journal and text references are at the bottom of the page)

"The total free water intake (from food and drinking water) decreases when
cats are fed dry food only, so that the water to dry matter intake ratio
when fed on commercial dry foods varies from 2.0 to 2.8: 1 whereas on canned
foods it varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1 (NRC, 1986). Thus for any given dry
matter intake cats have a higher water turnover on canned than on dry
foods."

"Cats increase voluntary water intake when fed dry food but not in
sufficient amounts to fully compensate for the lower moisture content of the
food. In a recent study, cats consuming a diet containing 10% moisture with
free access to drinking water had an average daily urine volume of 63
milliliters (ml). This volume increased to 112 ml/day when fed a canned diet
with a moisture content of 75%. Urine specific gravity was also higher in
cats that were fed the low-moisture food. Decreased urine volume may be an
important risk factor for the development of urolithiasis in cats. Diets
that cause a decrease in total fluid turnover can result in decreased urine
volume and increased urine concentration, both of which may contribute to
urinary tract disease in cats. Several studies have shown that dry cat
foods contribute to decreased fluid intake and urine volume. "

Always check with a vet before discontinuing a prescription diet.

Best of luck,

Phil

Phil P.
October 31st 08, 07:51 PM
"sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
...
> Looking for advise.
>
> Last year we had our male cat into the Animal Hospital for removal of
> blockage in his UT. The Animal Hospital recommended Hill's s/d to
> start with and then move him to c/d. After the s/d, our vet moved him
> to w/d because he was slightly overweight. He gained weight on w/d and
> our other cat (she) lost weight. We asked about switching to c/d but
> were told he should stay on w/d. Therefore we reduced the amount he
> gets and added a higher calorie food to her diet (she gets fed on a
> pedestal to keep her food separate). It seems to have worked, he has
> lost a #, she has gained a bit (she is very petite). .
>
> We were under the impression that w/d would help with the crystals,
> but now find out the w/d does nothing for them, only weight, which
> actually had the opposite affect on him.
>
> Our main concern is the crystals reforming in his penis (ouch). Am I
> correct in thinking he should be on c/d to prevent crystals, and with
> controlled feeding, to prevent weight gain? I also read in this forum
> (7 May 99) that c/d was reformulated so it does not tend to put on
> weight like it used to. Any truth to this?
>
> Thank you in advance.

If you feed your cat the correct portion size (18-20 kcal/lb/day) for his
weight he shouldn't gain weight on c/d. If he's gaining weight, you're
probably feeding him too much. Don't go by the feeding recommendations on
the labels. They're usually way too high and don't take into account the
neuter status of cats. Neutered cats need about 1/3 less kcals/day than an
intact cat and inactive neutered cats need even less.

A high fiber diet, such as w/d, is probably the worst diet you could feed a
cat with a history of crystalluria or urinary tract obstructions. Fiber
absorbs water- so that most of your cat's water intake will go to fecal
moisture instead of urine volume. The lower the urine volume the higher the
concentration of crystalline particles in the urine and the more likely they
will aggregate or accrete into larger and larger particles that will
eventually become crystals, plugs or uroliths.

Dry food in general has a similar effect on urine volume. Even though a cat
fed dry food drinks more water than a cat fed canned food, his total water
intake and water turnover is a lot less. The urine volume is lower and the
urine specific gravity is higher. Its a dangerous combination. A high fiber
dry diet is even worse! If the cat doesn't stay well hydrated he can become
constipated.

Always check with a vet before discontinuing a prescription diet.

Best of luck,

Phil

sideshowhaas
October 31st 08, 10:17 PM
O.K. results are in. We just received a message from the vet. He
said that the ph is 6.5 which is where it should be and there are "a
few triple phosphate crystals" and just have his urine checked in 3-6
months. He feels that we should stick with the wd (doesn't specify
wet or dry but since we have been doing both, I assume he wants us to
continue). Am I being unreasonable thinking that there should be no
crystals? Should we look for a new vet?

We went to the local "healthy pet food" store. We got the following:
Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Duck & Green Pea Formula
Innova Evo Cat & Kitten Food Turkey & Chicken Formula
Merrick Thanksgiving Day Dinner
Nature's Variety A Taste of Raw Chicken Formula (he threw in a 1lb
"sample")

None mention crystals or ph on the label. Is there something I should
be looking for in the Guaranteed Analysis?

You've all been more helpful than the vet. Thanks!

Phil P.
November 2nd 08, 04:45 AM
"sideshowhaas" > wrote in message
...
> O.K. results are in. We just received a message from the vet. He
> said that the ph is 6.5 which is where it should be

No- urine pH should be 6.2 - 6.4. Struvite can still form at pH 6.5.

How much time lapsed between his last meal and urine pH test? Do you feed
your cat twice a day or does he free-feed?


and there are "a
> few triple phosphate crystals"

That's struvite- magnesium ammonium phosphate a/k/a MAP. It only takes
*one*!


and just have his urine checked in 3-6
> months.

In *less* than 3-6 months your cat could form a boulder and block again. If
I were you I'd get a Hanna pH Checker (about $30) and monitor his urine pH
at home about 4 hours after eating for awhile.



He feels that we should stick with the wd (doesn't specify
> wet or dry but since we have been doing both, I assume he wants us to
> continue).

Not a good idea, IMO.


Am I being unreasonable thinking that there should be no
> crystals?

Not entirely. *Tiny* crystals aren't usually a problem because they're
usually ****ed out before they grow big enough to cause a urinary tract
obstruction (UTO). However, *any* crystals in the urine (crystalluria)
*are* a risk factor for a UTO.


> Should we look for a new vet?

Absolutely! This one doesn't sound like the sharpest tack in the pack.


>
> We went to the local "healthy pet food" store. We got the following:
> Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Duck & Green Pea Formula
> Innova Evo Cat & Kitten Food Turkey & Chicken Formula
> Merrick Thanksgiving Day Dinner
> Nature's Variety A Taste of Raw Chicken Formula (he threw in a 1lb
> "sample")
>
> None mention crystals or ph on the label. Is there something I should
> be looking for in the Guaranteed Analysis?

You won't find that information on the label. The gauranteed analysis is
usually more harmful than helpful because it doesn't represent the actual
nutrient content of the diet.

>
> You've all been more helpful than the vet. Thanks!

Find a new one before he kills your cat.

Best of luck,

Phil