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ensoul[_2_]
December 16th 08, 04:24 AM
my late hubby, Rick thought 2 cats would be easier sense at the time
we would spend days away from home when he was in the hosp....we only
them alone for 24 hrs..w/lights & radio on plus extra food and a new
toy
after that one of my daughters would come in and help

as child I grew up w/dogs as an adult w/cats...this is the first time
I've had 2 cats always been a single cat household.....was told by
several friends how much easier it is with 2 cats (if they get along)
since they keep each company & always have the other to play with

also though cats didn't do the dominate thing like dogs do...Rudy is
the boss, like to climb on Moe pin him down and bite his neck, then
keep him there for a bit

if I play with them it can't be done togther...Rudy won't allow Moe to
play and Moe just makes a half ass jesture to

so I play with Rudy then put in a bdrm then it's Moes turn to play

they have one of those tall thingies to climb and strach its kept in
the spare bdrm in front of a window...Moe isn't allowed on the top
roost

they're big guys and both weigh the same at 16 lbs, also tall when on
hind legs and they do that often, they're paws reach to top of my hip

they are very active, non-stop play & aggersion....loving too
though....but if i'm petting one guy and other comes in the one cat
has to leave

there are now 3 to 3 1/2...ins't it about time they calmed down a bit?

I used to thing my place was too small but they only they knew for 8
months of life was a cage in the SPCA, they were kept togther...I
figure after that, this place must seem huge

also been told by several ppl they've never seen cats that shed so
much....I do have the furminator only Moe allows brushing...also got
that spray for shedding I knew they wouldn't allow me to spray them so
I heated it up a bit and soaked in a old washcloth....OMG you would
have I was sticking them w/pins

they shed all year long

I had thought abt trying to get them a better home as in larger and w/
ppl that give them more attention...if not playing with each they want
to be my lap all the time

but have decided we're family & can''t get along all the time

ensoul

An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.
~Margaret Atwood

Debby Hanoka[_2_]
December 16th 08, 03:49 PM
On Dec 15, 11:24*pm, ensoul > wrote:
> my late hubby, Rick thought 2 cats would be easier sense at the time
> we would spend days away from home when he was in the hosp....we only
> them alone for 24 hrs..w/lights & radio on plus extra food and a new
> toy
> after that one of my daughters would come in and help
>
> as child I grew up w/dogs as an adult w/cats...this is the first time
> I've had 2 cats always been a single cat household.....was told by
> several friends how much easier it is with 2 cats (if they get along)
> since they keep each company & always have the other to play with
>
> also though cats didn't do the dominate thing like dogs do...Rudy is
> the boss, like to climb on Moe pin him down and bite his neck, then
> keep him there for a bit
>
> if I play with them it can't be done togther...Rudy won't allow Moe to
> play and Moe just makes a half ass jesture to
>
> so I play with Rudy then put in a bdrm then it's Moes turn to play
>
> they have one of those tall thingies to climb and strach its kept in
> the spare bdrm in front of a window...Moe isn't allowed on the top
> roost
>
> they're big guys and both weigh the same at 16 *lbs, also tall when on
> hind legs and they do that often, they're paws reach to top of my hip
>
> they are very active, non-stop play & aggersion....loving too
> though....but if i'm petting one guy and other comes in the one cat
> has to leave
>
> there are now 3 to 3 1/2...ins't it about time they calmed down a bit?
>
> I used to thing my place was too small but they only they knew for 8
> months of life was a cage in the SPCA, they were kept togther...I
> figure after that, this place must seem huge
>
> also been told by several ppl they've never seen cats that shed so
> much....I do have the furminator only Moe allows brushing...also got
> that spray for shedding I knew they wouldn't allow me to spray them so
> I heated it up a bit and soaked in a old washcloth....OMG you would
> have I was sticking them w/pins
>
> they shed all year long
>
> I had thought abt trying to get them a better home as in larger and w/
> ppl that give them more attention...if not playing with each they want
> to be my lap all the time
>
> but have decided we're family & can''t get along all the time
>
> ensoul
>
> An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.
> * *~Margaret Atwood

Have they been neutered yet?

cwcatartist
December 16th 08, 09:04 PM
> 2 cats are harder -- but have decided we're family & can''t get along all the time

If you can manage it, the cats are a lot happier having a real friend.
I've done it both ways.

Carol Wilson, Cat Artist
http://www.cafepress.com/carolwilsoncats
http://CarolWilsonCatArt.imagekind.com

ensoul[_2_]
December 17th 08, 02:16 AM
On Dec 16, 10:49*am, Debby Hanoka > wrote:
> On Dec 15, 11:24*pm, ensoul > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > my late hubby, Rick thought 2 cats would be easier sense at the time
> > we would spend days away from home when he was in the hosp....we only
> > them alone for 24 hrs..w/lights & radio on plus extra food and a new
> > toy
> > after that one of my daughters would come in and help
>
> > as child I grew up w/dogs as an adult w/cats...this is the first time
> > I've had 2 cats always been a single cat household.....was told by
> > several friends how much easier it is with 2 cats (if they get along)
> > since they keep each company & always have the other to play with
>
> > also though cats didn't do the dominate thing like dogs do...Rudy is
> > the boss, like to climb on Moe pin him down and bite his neck, then
> > keep him there for a bit
>
> > if I play with them it can't be done togther...Rudy won't allow Moe to
> > play and Moe just makes a half ass jesture to
>
> > so I play with Rudy then put in a bdrm then it's Moes turn to play
>
> > they have one of those tall thingies to climb and strach its kept in
> > the spare bdrm in front of a window...Moe isn't allowed on the top
> > roost
>
> > they're big guys and both weigh the same at 16 *lbs, also tall when on
> > hind legs and they do that often, they're paws reach to top of my hip
>
> > they are very active, non-stop play & aggersion....loving too
> > though....but if i'm petting one guy and other comes in the one cat
> > has to leave
>
> > there are now 3 to 3 1/2...ins't it about time they calmed down a bit?
>
> > I used to thing my place was too small but they only they knew for 8
> > months of life was a cage in the SPCA, they were kept togther...I
> > figure after that, this place must seem huge
>
> > also been told by several ppl they've never seen cats that shed so
> > much....I do have the furminator only Moe allows brushing...also got
> > that spray for shedding I knew they wouldn't allow me to spray them so
> > I heated it up a bit and soaked in a old washcloth....OMG you would
> > have I was sticking them w/pins
>
> > they shed all year long
>
> > I had thought abt trying to get them a better home as in larger and w/
> > ppl that give them more attention...if not playing with each they want
> > to be my lap all the time
>
> > but have decided we're family & can''t get along all the time
>
> > ensoul
>
> > An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.
> > * *~Margaret Atwood
>
> Have they been neutered yet?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

oh yes, never have cats that aren't neutred had been nuetred when we
got them at 8 months of age

ensoul

jmc
December 17th 08, 10:19 PM
Suddenly, without warning, ensoul exclaimed (12/15/2008 11:24 PM):
> my late hubby, Rick thought 2 cats would be easier sense at the time
> we would spend days away from home when he was in the hosp....we only
> them alone for 24 hrs..w/lights & radio on plus extra food and a new
> toy
> after that one of my daughters would come in and help
>
> as child I grew up w/dogs as an adult w/cats...this is the first time
> I've had 2 cats always been a single cat household.....was told by
> several friends how much easier it is with 2 cats (if they get along)
> since they keep each company & always have the other to play with
>
> also though cats didn't do the dominate thing like dogs do...Rudy is
> the boss, like to climb on Moe pin him down and bite his neck, then
> keep him there for a bit
>
> if I play with them it can't be done togther...Rudy won't allow Moe to
> play and Moe just makes a half ass jesture to
>
> so I play with Rudy then put in a bdrm then it's Moes turn to play
>
> they have one of those tall thingies to climb and strach its kept in
> the spare bdrm in front of a window...Moe isn't allowed on the top
> roost
>
> they're big guys and both weigh the same at 16 lbs, also tall when on
> hind legs and they do that often, they're paws reach to top of my hip
>
> they are very active, non-stop play & aggersion....loving too
> though....but if i'm petting one guy and other comes in the one cat
> has to leave
>
> there are now 3 to 3 1/2...ins't it about time they calmed down a bit?
>
> I used to thing my place was too small but they only they knew for 8
> months of life was a cage in the SPCA, they were kept togther...I
> figure after that, this place must seem huge
>
> also been told by several ppl they've never seen cats that shed so
> much....I do have the furminator only Moe allows brushing...also got
> that spray for shedding I knew they wouldn't allow me to spray them so
> I heated it up a bit and soaked in a old washcloth....OMG you would
> have I was sticking them w/pins
>
> they shed all year long
>
> I had thought abt trying to get them a better home as in larger and w/
> ppl that give them more attention...if not playing with each they want
> to be my lap all the time
>
> but have decided we're family & can''t get along all the time
>
> ensoul
>
> An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.
> ~Margaret Atwood

As to the shedding - are you feeding canned food? Meep shed like a tree
loses leaves in the fall when she was on dry food. She sheds A LOT less
now that she's eating exclusively wet/canned food.

jmc

December 19th 08, 10:32 PM
Please forgive the top-posting. Please note the interpolations.


On Dec 15, 11:24*pm, ensoul > wrote:
> my late hubby, Rick thought 2 cats would be easier sense at the time
> we would spend days away from home when he was in the hosp....we only
> them alone for 24 hrs..w/lights & radio on plus extra food and a new
> toy
> after that one of my daughters would come in and help
>
> as child I grew up w/dogs as an adult w/cats...this is the first time
> I've had 2 cats always been a single cat household.....was told by
> several friends how much easier it is with 2 cats (if they get along)
> since they keep each company & always have the other to play with
>
> also though cats didn't do the dominate thing like dogs do...Rudy is
> the boss, like to climb on Moe pin him down and bite his neck, then
> keep him there for a bit

Cats absolutely and positively have a pecking order. Typically, it is
by seniority - the older or first cat in a household dominates the
younger or newer even if there are substantial size differences. And,
if there happen to be three cats, two will gang up on the third.

Adult cats are far more likely to tolerate a new cat if that new cat
is brought in as a kitten. And you will notice some interesting
behavior - initally the older/dominant cat will defer to a kitten, let
it eat first, allow it to tussle, pounce or otherwise 'abuse' the
senior, and sometimes actually indulge in grooming the kitten. Even
neutered males will do this on occasion. Introducing a new adult cat,
especially a dominant cat from somewhere else will cause all kinds of
problems if the previous situation has been stable for a long time.
Try to avoid this if at all possible, especially if there is not a
great deal of separation (space and multiple rooms) available.

> if I play with them it can't be done togther...Rudy won't allow Moe to
> play and Moe just makes a half ass jesture to

You need to become the dominant cat. You are allowing Rudy to dominate
you. The point here is that you need to keep your cats "kittenized" in
order for them to get along with each other at the same time they get
along with you. That is a tough row to hoe as cats neither understand
nor respond to punishment or 'time out' or other sorts of discipline
as would a dog.

> so I play with Rudy then put in a bdrm then it's Moes turn to play
>
> they have one of those tall thingies to climb and strach its kept in
> the spare bdrm in front of a window...Moe isn't allowed on the top
> roost

Normal cat behavior. They will establish their pecking order,
eventually.

> they're big guys and both weigh the same at 16 *lbs, also tall when on
> hind legs and they do that often, they're paws reach to top of my hip
>
> they are very active, non-stop play & aggersion....loving too
> though....but if i'm petting one guy and other comes in the one cat
> has to leave
>
> there are now 3 to 3 1/2...ins't it about time they calmed down a bit?

Depends on what you mean by "calmed down". If they are still receiving
confusing signals (more on this later) they will continue to try and
establish 'proper order'. You may be confusing them such that they
cannot achieve this state.

> I used to thing my place was too small but they only they knew for 8
> months of life was a cage in the SPCA, they were kept togther...I
> figure after that, this place must seem huge

Not hardly. The cell is merely a bit larger. A healthy normal cat (and
VERY, VERY, VERY few domestic house pets are even faintly normal in
terms of cat behavior) will have a territory of over a square mile
depending on prey density. Females very slightly smaller than males -
but that is due to mating behaviors, not territorial imperatives. But
that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion other than as a point of
departure and something for a cat-minder to keep in mind when
diagnosing behavior issues.

> also been told by several ppl they've never seen cats that shed so
> much....I do have the furminator only Moe allows brushing...also got
> that spray for shedding I knew they wouldn't allow me to spray them so
> I heated it up a bit and soaked in a old washcloth....OMG you would
> have I was sticking them w/pins

Shedding all-year-round in a temperate climate (one with actual
seasons) and where the cat actually experiences that climate (100%
indoor cats DO NOT experience seasons in any meaningful way) is a sign
of stress. And much of the behavior you are describing is also
indicative of stress. Don't take this the wrong way - all situations
(for cats, especially) where relationships and good order are still in
question is stressful. So you need to help them establish good order.

> they shed all year long

In part, they don't know what time of the year it is if they are 100%
indoor cats. This is a stresser all by itself.

> I had thought abt trying to get them a better home as in larger and w/
> ppl that give them more attention...if not playing with each they want
> to be my lap all the time

Actually that is a good sign - you are kittenizing them. But you
*MUST* be consistent and do not give them mixed signals. Cats are
entirely apart from, foreign to, and uncaring of the concept of
'fairness'. That is an entirely human frailty and has no place in how
you behave towards your cats. You are their parent, you are the
provider of food (but they consider us particularly inept hunters as
we are always feeding them grains and cold dead things) the provider
of attention, warmth and general parenthood. A normal cat gets over
this at about twelve weeks. People wish to keep their cats in this
state their entire lives. No wonder they are confused.

> but have decided we're family & can''t get along all the time

Not true as far as your cats are concerned. Once good order is
established, they will get along 100% of the time. There will be
ritual behavior, ritual testings and occasional spats. But those are
almost entirely and nearly purely rituals. The rest of the time they
will tussle, play, get along and pretty much live their lives
according to specific and very clearly defined (to them) rules and
rituals. It is incumbent on you to observe them well enough to get a
feel for what these rules might be - and then go along with them.
Remember, cats could care less about "fairness" whichever side of the
equation they might be on from your perspective.
___________________________

So: here is a rant that I posted on another group re: indoor vs.
outdoor. But much of it applies here:

What I find ineffably sad is the general lack of understanding of the
nature of cats, their evolutionary history and their place in the
food
chain.

a) They are top-of-the food-chain hunters.
b) They are obligatory carnivores.
c) They require fresh prey (they are not carrion-eaters).
d) They prefer warm-blooded prey (and their 'mechanics' support
this).
e) They are most active (hunt) at dawn and dusk (crepuscular).
f) A normal cat will not kill for sport.
g) A normal cat will have a territory of from a square mile to
several
square miles depending on prey density. Female cats will tend to have
a slightly smaller territory than males as males will roam further to
mate. And - many cats will have overlapping territories.
h) For these purposes, we will ignore mating and social behaviors - a
whole 'nother thing.

There are a number of things that go with the above - high 'normal'
body temperature (101 - 102.2F) and rapid heartbeat (140 - 220bpm).
This allows them to have extremely rapid reflexes in order to make
their kill-pounce after whatever stalking they may have done. The
only
vegetative matter they will get in the wild will be either in their
preys' stomachs or their occasional browse of fresh grasses and mints
for roughage. A 'normal' cat would not eat corn meal or wheat-gluten
meal on a bet, even if half-starved (more on 'normal' later). Nor
would they eat things they have not killed themselves - however
fresh.
They get over that state at about 10 - 12 weeks of age. Their ear-
patches are sensitive to infra-red - this allows them to 'follow'
their prey underground, or in a tree, or in a pile of brush or wood
(or behind a wall). Many times, they detect prey by differentiation
of
heat and by movement. And lastly, they have relatively poor detail-
vision and relatively poor close-vision and limited color sense (but
are absolutely not color-blind).

A healthy cat will sleep between 16 and 22 hours per day, if there is
sufficient prey.

Model of a "Normal" cat: Either the European Wild Cat, or the North
African Wild Cat - both capable of interbreeding, both will
interbreed
with domestic cats.

So, what do we do with this sort of a creature?

We trap it in what to it is a very, very small cage.
We feed it mostly grains and cold, dead things in general.
We expect it to be at its most active when we are at our most active.
We expect it to be sweet, soft and purr on command.
We deny its nature and natural requirements as a top-of-the-food-
chain
predator.
We, too often, cut its fingers off at the first knuckle (de-claw).
And we expect it to remain a kitten for the entirety of its life.

And, worst of all, we get upset at *IT* when it acts out under these
entirely unnatural, infernally boring, dull, limited conditions.
___________________

Things you can do to help:

Provide multiple toys - tethered squeaky-mice are good - sufficiently
far from each other that one cat cannot dominate all of them. But
within view and/or earshot if possible. Play behavior stimulates
kitten behavior.

Allow them to be demand-eaters - if your cats are overweight or have
ever been starved, this may be impossible as they will eat until they
burst if they can. But if they do leave food in the bowl, make sure
fresh water and fresh food (dry) is available 100% of the time. This
reduces stress and with plentiful prey the cats do not act out so
strongly for territory - and for the record - *YOU* are part of their
territory. Our rule-of-thumb is Two Bowls for dry food sufficiently
far apart so that both may eat simultaneously. ONE bowl for wet
(treat) food, served 2X per day at their most active hours (~6:00am
and ~7:00pm) Just as wild familial cats will share fresh prey and
mostly hunt during these hours - this fits their natural behaviors. On
weekends, we do sleep late, but if I get up in the middle of the
night, I will put the food out for their morning hunt.

Allow them to have something that is "their space" our older cat has a
leather chair that he uses, the younger has a cat-bed that he uses.
When the cat is in that location, neither you, nor any other creature
in the household should disturb them - best not even to interact with
them unless invited.

It is OK to put them out of the room (both or neither), but not one
away from you and the other with. That makes them nervous and stresses
them - it is NOT jealousy, but that they are acutely involved with
their environment and activities that they cannot observe are taken as
direct threats unless *you* are with them - the dominant cat.

You are starting to get the picture. Yes, two cats are much easier -
for the cats. Not necessarily for you. And, just as with people,
sometimes cats just don't like each other. Imagine your worst possible
choice for a roommate - add chiggers and flatulence - you might get
an inkling on how cats respond to things that they just DO NOT like.
And imagine the stress on them.

Good luck. Lighten up on yourself and the cats. It should work itself
out if you stop trying so hard.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA