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Sylvia M
January 7th 09, 07:31 PM
My cat is 5 years old.
She now has no incisors, tiny teeth, between her canines on her lower
jaw.
I noticed that she only had 2 or 3 last year.
The only cause that I can think of is the hard tarter-control treats I
was giving her.

No redness, no bad breath, free feed dry and 1/4 can wet 2x day.
And I cannot get her to let me brush.

All incisors between 'fangz' are present on the upper jaw.

Is this 'normal'?
I don't think that they grow back, do they?

T.I.A.

Sylvia M

cybercat
January 7th 09, 08:18 PM
"Sylvia M" > wrote in message
...
> My cat is 5 years old.
> She now has no incisors, tiny teeth, between her canines on her lower jaw.
> I noticed that she only had 2 or 3 last year.
> The only cause that I can think of is the hard tarter-control treats I was
> giving her.
>
> No redness, no bad breath, free feed dry and 1/4 can wet 2x day.
> And I cannot get her to let me brush.
>
> All incisors between 'fangz' are present on the upper jaw.
>
> Is this 'normal'?
> I don't think that they grow back, do they?
>

VET.

Noon Cat Nick
January 7th 09, 08:54 PM
Sylvia M wrote:
> My cat is 5 years old.
> She now has no incisors, tiny teeth, between her canines on her lower
> jaw.
> I noticed that she only had 2 or 3 last year.
> The only cause that I can think of is the hard tarter-control treats I
> was giving her.
>
> No redness, no bad breath, free feed dry and 1/4 can wet 2x day.
> And I cannot get her to let me brush.
>
> All incisors between 'fangz' are present on the upper jaw.
>
> Is this 'normal'?
> I don't think that they grow back, do they?
>
> T.I.A.
>
> Sylvia M
>
>

Nothing you've described above is normal about this.

No, they don't grow back.

Get that poor cat to the vet posthaste. Who knows what kind of misery
she's been in. This ain't good.

Rene S.
January 7th 09, 09:21 PM
Like other posters have suggested, please take your cat to the vet.
No, teeth don't grow back, and she should not be losing so many in
such a short amount of time.

Though she seems fine to you, she could be in pain from tooth or gum
problems.

Sylvia M
January 8th 09, 12:50 AM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...
> Like other posters have suggested, please take your cat to the vet.
> No, teeth don't grow back, and she should not be losing so many in
> such a short amount of time.
>
> Though she seems fine to you, she could be in pain from tooth or gum
> problems.

Will do, thanks to all.

cybercat
January 8th 09, 12:57 AM
"Sylvia M" > wrote:
>
> Will do, thanks to all.
Please let us know what it is if you can.

MaryL
January 8th 09, 04:42 AM
"Sylvia M" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Rene S." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Like other posters have suggested, please take your cat to the vet.
>> No, teeth don't grow back, and she should not be losing so many in
>> such a short amount of time.
>>
>> Though she seems fine to you, she could be in pain from tooth or gum
>> problems.
>
> Will do, thanks to all.
>

Good. This isn't normal, and the tartar control treats would not have
anything to do with a problem like this. Please keep us updated.
Incidentally, I recommend that you change from your current feeding to all
canned food (premium quality), fed twice a day on a twelve-hour schedule or
as close to that as possible. Eliminate all dry food. However, this would
have nothing to do with the problem you described. This recommendation is
for better nutrition.

MaryL

Sharon[_3_]
January 8th 09, 05:24 AM
In article >,
says...
> My cat is 5 years old.
> She now has no incisors, tiny teeth, between her canines on her lower
> jaw.
> I noticed that she only had 2 or 3 last year.
> The only cause that I can think of is the hard tarter-control treats I
> was giving her.
>
> No redness, no bad breath, free feed dry and 1/4 can wet 2x day.
> And I cannot get her to let me brush.

Brushing? Tartar control? WTF are you feeding it?

cshenk
January 8th 09, 06:22 PM
"Sylvia M" wrote

> Will do, thanks to all.

Sylvia, is your cat any sort of pedigree? Some of the types (Himalayans for
example) are quite prone to a combination of bad breeders passing off
unheathy genetics, and poor tooth construction to start with.

I knowingly adopted a cat like this from a reputable breeder who up front
told me Roscoe had 'failure to thrive' syndrome and should never ever be
bred. Even the best of breeders have the occasional throw back. I got him
'free to a good home' as the breeder prefered to not kill kittens but
instead settled them as 'fixed' with good homes for as long as they had.
His mom and dad were champion show kitties and several of the litter turned
out just as good. Roscoe however, was never robust and had the bad end of
the reccesives. (this was known in advance as said above).

Roscoe lost most of his teeth by age 3. On adoption, they estimated this
and said he'd probably not make 5. Vet validated it.

Roscoe lived to be 13, but due to a lot of care in his feeding (and lots of
love plus time with the vet).

Yes, do take the kitty to the vet. Tooth loss like that is not normal. You
may after the vet trip, need to adapt diet. If you need help with that, let
me know.

The basics of the diet changes will be to go to mostly wet food but this
will be based on how the back teeth are (they dont munch catfood with the
front ones).

A typical meal for Roscoe once he was largely toothless:
2 TB dry catfood (he liked the taste) mixed in with 3 TB salt free meat
broth
Then for 'dinner' he'd have about 3 TB wet augmented with some sort of
rendered fat or olive oil.

cshenk
January 8th 09, 06:37 PM
"MaryL" wrote

> Incidentally, I recommend that you change from your current feeding to all
> canned food (premium quality), fed twice a day on a twelve-hour schedule
> or as close to that as possible. Eliminate all dry food. However, this
> would have nothing to do with the problem you described. This
> recommendation is for better nutrition.

Mary, I see this over and over again but it's just not really true. Yes,
most should be wet, but a nibble of dry is good for them too if of a premium
quality.

The problems come with poor quality dry (ash etc) or with improper intake of
liquid.

I solved the liquids problem back in 1986 by using meat broths (salt free,
thats important!).

Meantime Cash-pup and Daisy-cat just got their nooner snack.

Cash (good ol' Johnny Cash style hound dog, mix of Beagle and Bull Mastiff)
got 1/2 cup dashi (a fish broth) and 2 fingerling sized fish.

Daisy got 3 TB dashi and one fingerling fish (deheaded and tail chopped off
in her case and added to Cash's dish).

Breakfast was eukanaba dry (dog type for dog, cat type for cat) and dinner
will be 6oz wet pedigree with 1/3 cup dry eukanaba for cash, and 3 oz wet
decent brand for Daisy.

Rene S.
January 8th 09, 07:42 PM
> Mary, I see this over and over again but it's just not really true. *Yes,
> most should be wet, but a nibble of dry is good for them too if of a premium
> quality.
>
> The problems come with poor quality dry (ash etc) or with improper intake of
> liquid.
>
> I solved the liquids problem back in 1986 by using meat broths (salt free,
> thats important!).

Sorry, but I have to disagree. While a lack of moisture is a huge
problem with dry food, the addition of CARBS to the food is just as
much of a problem. Cats are obligatory carnivores and have no
biological need for carbs in their diet. This article discusses the
negatives of dry food (and is written by a vet): http://www.catinfo.org

kraut
January 8th 09, 08:29 PM
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:54:30 GMT, Noon Cat Nick
> wrote:

>Sylvia M wrote:
>> My cat is 5 years old.
>> She now has no incisors, tiny teeth, between her canines on her lower
>> jaw.
>> I noticed that she only had 2 or 3 last year.
>> The only cause that I can think of is the hard tarter-control treats I
>> was giving her.
>>
>> No redness, no bad breath, free feed dry and 1/4 can wet 2x day.
>> And I cannot get her to let me brush.
>>
>> All incisors between 'fangz' are present on the upper jaw.
>>
>> Is this 'normal'?
>> I don't think that they grow back, do they?
>>
>> T.I.A.
>>
>> Sylvia M
>>
>>
>
>Nothing you've described above is normal about this.
>
>No, they don't grow back.
>
>Get that poor cat to the vet posthaste. Who knows what kind of misery
>she's been in. This ain't good.


A question for the original poster:

Have you been taking cat in for regular dental checkups and cleanibg?

A lot of people seem to forget that a cats teeth need regular care
just like a person's does.

cybercat
January 8th 09, 08:33 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
...

> Mary, I see this over and over again but it's just not really true. Yes,
> most should be wet, but a nibble of dry is good for them too if of a
> premium
> quality.
>
> The problems come with poor quality dry (ash etc) or with improper intake
> of
> liquid.
>
> I solved the liquids problem back in 1986 by using meat broths (salt free,
> thats important!).

>Sorry, but I have to disagree. While a lack of moisture is a huge
>problem with dry food, the addition of CARBS to the food is just as
>much of a problem. Cats are obligatory carnivores and have no
>biological need for carbs in their diet. This article discusses the
>negatives of dry food (and is written by a vet): http://www.catinfo.org

There is a great deal of research that supports this, as well. The best
reason to feed dry, and in my opinion the most prevalent, is convenience.
Just like fast food is convenient for humans. And, regardless of the
studies, those of us who have taken our cats off of dry completely and
substituted canned at 12 hour intervals have seen remarkable improvement in
their overall health--coats, eyes, energy, everything. It is simply the best
thing you can do for your cat after spaying or neutering.

Chris[_4_]
January 9th 09, 01:09 AM
Question for the OP. Did you get the cat as a kitten or adopt as an adult?
My cat Penny is missing all her little teeth, she was missing quite a few
when we adopted her at 1-1/2 years old. The vet said he felt she was
nutritionally neglected when she was young, and this is why her teeth fell
out.
We definately know she was physically abused.

Sylvia M
January 9th 09, 07:45 AM
"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> Question for the OP. Did you get the cat as a kitten or adopt as an
> adult?
> My cat Penny is missing all her little teeth, she was missing quite a
> few
> when we adopted her at 1-1/2 years old. The vet said he felt she was
> nutritionally neglected when she was young, and this is why her teeth
> fell out.
> We definately know she was physically abused.
>
She seems to be a domestic long hair tuxedo. at least medium-long.
Her ear tufts might indicate some Maine Coon.
Her mother was rescued with 3 young kittens.
Pit2nya remained in the rescue home till 1-1/2.
Her mother still resides there. The siblings died young,
one was the runt, the other I don't know.
I have an email in to them to please check her mother's teeth,
or I'll phone them on weekend.
as a phone call to vet suggested that it might be hereditary.
I have a Monday appointment.
I have been feeding Royal Canin lite, as she 'grazes' on and off all day
and sometimes at nite.
Her back teeth seem sound, I'll have Vet check them, ofcourse, but she
does 'crunch' the dry..
Wet is Wellness, she was raised on a quality wet..
She 'expects' treats, and sometimes I just use 5 Sci Diet Lite, hairball
control.

Thanks to all for your concern.

Sylvia

cybercat
January 9th 09, 06:53 PM
"zob" > wrote
>>Sorry, but I have to disagree. While a lack of moisture is a huge
>>problem with dry food, the addition of CARBS to the food is just as
>>much of a problem. Cats are obligatory carnivores and have no
>>biological need for carbs in their diet. This article discusses the
>>negatives of dry food (and is written by a vet): http://www.catinfo.org
>
> <sarcastic mode> Wow, if an article on the internet says it's true,
> then it must be true for all pets!</sarcastic mode>
>
> Seriously though, this subject will be debated forever among cat
> owners and pet care specialists and there will never be an agreement.
> It's like the internet wars between the human low-fat dieters and the
> low-carb dieters. Neither is completely right and neither is
> completely wrong. Posters need to learn to use the "YMMV" (Your
> Mileage May Vary) acronym, which loosely translated means "this works
> for me, although something else may work for you").

Nonsense. Obligate carnivores need meat, not grain. Very simple.

Janet
January 9th 09, 07:20 PM
cybercat wrote:
> "zob" > wrote
>>> Sorry, but I have to disagree. While a lack of moisture is a huge
>>> problem with dry food, the addition of CARBS to the food is just as
>>> much of a problem. Cats are obligatory carnivores and have no
>>> biological need for carbs in their diet. This article discusses the
>>> negatives of dry food (and is written by a vet):
>>> http://www.catinfo.org
>>
>> <sarcastic mode> Wow, if an article on the internet says it's true,
>> then it must be true for all pets!</sarcastic mode>
>>
>> Seriously though, this subject will be debated forever among cat
>> owners and pet care specialists and there will never be an agreement.
>> It's like the internet wars between the human low-fat dieters and the
>> low-carb dieters. Neither is completely right and neither is
>> completely wrong. Posters need to learn to use the "YMMV" (Your
>> Mileage May Vary) acronym, which loosely translated means "this works
>> for me, although something else may work for you").
>
> Nonsense. Obligate carnivores need meat, not grain. Very simple.

I recall reading an article about predator diet ages ago that claimed that
wolves eat the intestines of the herbivores they kill first. The intestines
are, of course, full of grasses and the like.

If all cats need is meat, why not feed them nothing but plain chicken and
pork? Chicken and pork can be bought at a cost per pound significantly less
than cat food. (This is actually a serious question. <G>)

January 9th 09, 07:52 PM
> If all cats need is meat, why not feed them nothing but plain chicken and
> pork? Chicken and pork can be bought at a cost per pound significantly less
> than cat food. (This is actually a serious question. <G>)

Raw diets are excellent for cats, but you must make sure it has the
proper nutrients. For example, a mouse is a complete diet for cats
because it has meat, organs, and bones. A chicken breast is not a
complete diet--cats need the vitamins from organ meat and bones too. I
would not feed raw port due to the risk of trichonosis (sp). If you're
interested in trying a raw diet, this site is excellent and has step-
by-step instructions: http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.php

Janet
January 9th 09, 09:50 PM
> If you're
> interested in trying a raw diet, this site is excellent and has step-
> by-step instructions: http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.php

Thanks. I may try it. It would cost less than canned food and definitely
have better ingredients!

cybercat
January 9th 09, 10:16 PM
"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> cybercat wrote:
>> "zob" > wrote
>>>> Sorry, but I have to disagree. While a lack of moisture is a huge
>>>> problem with dry food, the addition of CARBS to the food is just as
>>>> much of a problem. Cats are obligatory carnivores and have no
>>>> biological need for carbs in their diet. This article discusses the
>>>> negatives of dry food (and is written by a vet):
>>>> http://www.catinfo.org
>>>
>>> <sarcastic mode> Wow, if an article on the internet says it's true,
>>> then it must be true for all pets!</sarcastic mode>
>>>
>>> Seriously though, this subject will be debated forever among cat
>>> owners and pet care specialists and there will never be an agreement.
>>> It's like the internet wars between the human low-fat dieters and the
>>> low-carb dieters. Neither is completely right and neither is
>>> completely wrong. Posters need to learn to use the "YMMV" (Your
>>> Mileage May Vary) acronym, which loosely translated means "this works
>>> for me, although something else may work for you").
>>
>> Nonsense. Obligate carnivores need meat, not grain. Very simple.
>
> I recall reading an article about predator diet ages ago that claimed that
> wolves eat the intestines of the herbivores they kill first. The
> intestines are, of course, full of grasses and the like.
>
> If all cats need is meat, why not feed them nothing but plain chicken and
> pork? Chicken and pork can be bought at a cost per pound significantly
> less than cat food. (This is actually a serious question. <G>)

You know the answer, right? Because they need taurine or they will go blind,
and taurine does not occur in large enough quantities in butchered people
meat to keep them healthy. Cats eat grasses and things for roughage. Not the
same thing as stuffing themselves full of corn every day instead of meat.

cybercat
January 9th 09, 10:18 PM
"zob" > wrote:
>>>
>>> Nonsense. Obligate carnivores need meat, not grain. Very simple.
>>
>>I recall reading an article about predator diet ages ago that claimed that
>>wolves eat the intestines of the herbivores they kill first. The
>>intestines
>>are, of course, full of grasses and the like.
>>
>>If all cats need is meat, why not feed them nothing but plain chicken and
>>pork? Chicken and pork can be bought at a cost per pound significantly
>>less
>>than cat food. (This is actually a serious question. <G>)
>>
> When cats are deprived of carbohydrates, they will start chewing on
> grass - or plants. This is evidence that certain vegetation is a
> natural - and necessary - part of their diets. Felines need balanced
> nutrition that they can't get from just protein.

Nonsense. Cats do not require grains at all. Consumption of grasses is a
very different thing.

Do you actually believe that cats require grains? Not just the bit of grass
eaten for digestive purposes (roughage) but the ****load of corn and wheat
in most dry foods?

cybercat
January 9th 09, 10:18 PM
> wrote in message
...
>
>> If all cats need is meat, why not feed them nothing but plain chicken and
>> pork? Chicken and pork can be bought at a cost per pound significantly
>> less
>> than cat food. (This is actually a serious question. <G>)
>
> Raw diets are excellent for cats, but you must make sure it has the
> proper nutrients. For example, a mouse is a complete diet for cats
> because it has meat, organs, and bones. A chicken breast is not a
> complete diet--cats need the vitamins from organ meat and bones too. I
> would not feed raw port due to the risk of trichonosis (sp). If you're
> interested in trying a raw diet, this site is excellent and has step-
> by-step instructions: http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.php

Taurine is the word you are looking for.

cshenk
January 10th 09, 12:57 AM
"Sylvia M" wrote

> She seems to be a domestic long hair tuxedo. at least medium-long.
> Her ear tufts might indicate some Maine Coon.

Ok. Generally longer haired cats *seem* more prone to tooth problems but
that might just be my own experiences.

> Pit2nya remained in the rescue home till 1-1/2.

My Daisy was in several rescue homes for 18 months. Appears to have been
abused by kids, she is very leery of them. Took immediately to Charlotte
who is the only 'child' she has ever taken to, but Charlotte was raised with
cats and was 14 when we found Daisy.

> a phone call to vet suggested that it might be hereditary.

Possible. May also be bad diet or lack of calcium when formative. REally
hard to tell that one.

> I have a Monday appointment.

Tell us how it goes?

> I have been feeding Royal Canin lite, as she 'grazes' on and off all day
> and sometimes at nite.

I am not familiar with that one but if your Vet says it's a decent one for
her, then use it.

> Her back teeth seem sound, I'll have Vet check them, ofcourse, but she
> does 'crunch' the dry..

Good. You'll have to keep an eye on that though.

> Wet is Wellness, she was raised on a quality wet..

Can't find that here. Odd that.

> She 'expects' treats, and sometimes I just use 5 Sci Diet Lite, hairball
> control.

I dont use hairball controls anymore. Instead, I add a bit of fats and oils
to the diet. I read that most hairball treatments are really just laxitives
with can interfere with proper nutrient absorbing (not sure all are, just
happy with my methods and no reason to change).

So, I'll add a dibble of bacon fat one day, a dibble of rendered chicken fat
another, then off to olive oil or whatever is handy. Caution though on
butter. Most adults cats are lactose intolerant so will act like a laxitive
;-)

Run that by your vet but if you can come up with some fairly salt-free 'fat'
(cats do not tolerate salt as well as we do, nor do they need it added to
things) out of your normal cooking, it's good for pets. Think 1 TS a day is
about right, split between 2 meals.

Since we do a mid-day 'nibble', the Cash-pup and Daisy-cat actually get
'fed' 3 times a day. Appropriate small amounts so the total is right. The
noon 'meal' is largely broth based with a dibble of fat and just a 2-3 bite
bit of meat normally and may just be broth alone with a little bacon or duck
fat or something.

I mentioned Roscoe in last post. Roscoe had alot of genetic problems. One
of them required he be on a high calcium diet (opposed to other kitty diet
levels). Since I also needed one and had cholestrol problems, I developed a
habit of making my own 'bone stock' out of anything handy. This makes a
thick rich stock, that jells at 70F easily. Been feeding my pets this way
for years. Sadly, Roscoe has long gone over the rainbow bridge, but he had
a happy long life for his conditions. Never a problem with kidney or
bladder though he was definately *expected* to have those problems. Vet
said i had him drinking so much good broth, it just never had time to
develop?

cshenk
January 10th 09, 01:06 AM
"zob" wrote

> <sarcastic mode> Wow, if an article on the internet says it's true,
> then it must be true for all pets!</sarcastic mode>

Hehe true! It's in writing!

> Seriously though, this subject will be debated forever among cat
> owners and pet care specialists and there will never be an agreement.

Yes, I shouldnt even bring it up. There are many who think the _only_ ok
diet is all wet, and must be wellness brand.

> My cats, for instance, are happiest and healthiest when I give them a
> food with plenty of moisture along with a dry food that is low in
> processed grains - which one is allergic to. Just remember that

Works for me! I feed about 70% wet, and 30% dry. Grin, if I dont give
Daisy some dry, she starts raiding Cash-pup's dry in the morning!

Ever seen a 9.5 lb cat drive a 54lb mixed beagle-bull-mastiff away from his
breakfast? LOL! It's a sight to see I assure you!

I think of it sorta like I really need that cup of coffee in the morning.
Daisy-cat just *must* have 1-2 TB dry in the morning or she's cranky all
day.

Sylvia M
January 13th 09, 07:55 AM
I spoke to her rescue parents this weekend and we went to the
veterinarian today.
Her rescue parents checked her mother's teeth and all bottom incisors
were present.
However when mother and kittens were trapped, the kittens were a few
days old and scrawny, as was the mother.
Vet said so probably not hereditary, but you don't know 'dad'.
Could be malnourishment during early development.
Not 'normal', though cases are occasionally seen in his practice,
sometimes worse.
Also some general gum inflammation noted. Average accumulation of
tarter.
Otherwise cat is in xlnt shape.
So...antibiotics to clear up inflammation, pre-op blood panel done, then
teeth will be scaled and cleaned in about 10 days.

Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
suggests adding human table protein, including some fat , chicken,
fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) in small amounts, to
her diet.
Will do.

Thanks to all for your concern.

Sylvia M.


"Sylvia M" > wrote in message
...
> My cat is 5 years old.
> She now has no incisors, tiny teeth, between her canines on her lower
> jaw.
> I noticed that she only had 2 or 3 last year.
> The only cause that I can think of is the hard tarter-control treats I
> was giving her.
>
> No redness, no bad breath, free feed dry and 1/4 can wet 2x day.
> And I cannot get her to let me brush.
>
> All incisors between 'fangz' are present on the upper jaw.
>
> Is this 'normal'?
> I don't think that they grow back, do they?
>
> T.I.A.
>
> Sylvia M
>
>

---MIKE---
January 13th 09, 07:26 PM
Sylvia wrote-

>Vet feels that catfood is not the best food
> for cats

I think you should look for a different vet.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

cybercat
January 13th 09, 09:19 PM
"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Sylvia wrote-

>Vet feels that catfood is not the best food
> for cats

>I think you should look for a different vet.

I have to agree with you, Mike.

DWMeowMix
January 13th 09, 11:51 PM
On Jan 13, 12:55*am, "Sylvia M" > wrote:

> Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
> since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
> suggests adding human *table protein, including some fat , chicken,
> fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) *in small amounts, to
> her diet.
> Will do.
>
> Thanks to all for your concern.
>
> Sylvia M.

Sylvia,

I feed all four of my cats a raw food diet (3 are toothless) and it's
done absolute WONDERS for them. I don't think your vet is too off the
mark on this one. MOST grocery store pet foods are made from 4d meats
and by products (hoofs, nails, beaks, intensines, gristle, rendered
fats and diseased flesh and other things best not mentioned or I'll be
sick) and there is a lot of sugars added which rot the teeth (I
learned the hard way!). To get the most nutrition and as close to
the natural diet as their wild cousins eat you would have to feed
raw. It's called prey model feeding. I know its not everyone's
choice and it requires committment and effort especially if you have
to grind and mix your own like I do since some of my kitties (old)
have no teeth left. If your kitty has at least some teeth you could
try to get her used to eating a chunked up chicken leg, cornish game
hen, (raw bone-in), whatever raw meat you have on hand, a few times a
week. If that's not your thing then Natures Best (although I'm no fan
of Hill's products) and Nature's Miracle are a couple of decent enough
canned foods I will use in a pinch.

Debbie

Candace
January 14th 09, 01:29 AM
On Jan 13, 4:51*pm, DWMeowMix > wrote:
> On Jan 13, 12:55*am, "Sylvia M" > wrote:
>
> > Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
> > since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
> > suggests adding human *table protein, including some fat , chicken,
> > fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) *in small amounts, to
> > her diet.
> > Will do.
>
> > Thanks to all for your concern.
>
> > Sylvia M.
>
> Sylvia,
>
> I feed all four of my cats a raw food diet (3 are toothless) and it's
> done absolute WONDERS for them. *I don't think your vet is too off the
> mark on this one. *MOST grocery store pet foods are made from 4d meats
> and by products (hoofs, nails, beaks, intensines, gristle, rendered
> fats and diseased flesh and other things best not mentioned or I'll be
> sick) and there is a lot of sugars added which rot the teeth (I
> learned the hard way!). * To get the most nutrition and as close to
> the natural diet as their wild cousins eat you would have to feed
> raw. *It's called prey model feeding. *I know its not everyone's
> choice and it requires committment and effort especially if you have
> to grind and mix your own like I do since some of my kitties (old)
> have no teeth left. *If your kitty has at least some teeth you could
> try to get her used to eating a chunked up chicken leg, cornish game
> hen, (raw bone-in), whatever raw meat you have on hand, a few times a
> week. *If that's not your thing then Natures Best (although I'm no fan
> of Hill's products) and Nature's Miracle are a couple of decent enough
> canned foods I will use in a pinch.
>
> Debbie

Don't you have to add taurine, though? I thought cats required it.

Candace

cshenk
January 14th 09, 11:59 AM
"Sylvia M" wrote

> Vet said so probably not hereditary, but you don't know 'dad'.
> Could be malnourishment during early development.

Possible. Not enough milk at formative age or something.

> Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
> since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
> suggests adding human table protein, including some fat , chicken, fish,
> turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) in small amounts, to her
> diet.

Interesting. I note you say 'add to her diet' (not replace) so her other
catfood (I assume a dry) will take care of the taurine needs. There are
also suppliments sold to take care of that (not very expensive either).

My vet agrees as well with a portion of human foods if made in such a way as
to be 'safe'. Like, have to be very low salt. No onions/garlic/chocolate
(I always forget if thats dogs or cats but one cant take chocolate and the
other had onion family issues). Since I'd be using such with a dog and a
cat, doesnt matter to me which cant handle which one ;-)

I definately add leftover animal fats to their diets and sometimes a little
olive oil. Home made broth daily, usually with a few scraps of leftover
meats in there.

Their main meals are commercial pet foods.

DWMeowMix
January 14th 09, 03:46 PM
On Jan 13, 6:29*pm, Candace > wrote:

>
> Don't you have to add taurine, though? *I thought cats required it.
>
> Candace- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Candace,

Yes, cats do require it. You of course can add a supplement but I
find it easier just to feed foods that have a high taurine content
such as chicken legs...surprise! Heart of any animal has a VERY high
taurine content. You could feed it alone or with any other meats. I
find that beef heart is usually readily available so you could chunk
(or grind) that up several times a week to give kitty the taurine
content required. Something to remember if you're thinking about
cooking the meat is that most taurine content is lost during cooking
so you would have to supplement anyway. Taurine is a water soluable
amino acid and doesn't pass easily into meaty areas so, cooking
obviously cooks away the water which cooks away the taurine.

Also, don't forget liver...it's high in Vitamins A & D and kitty needs
those as well.

Debbie

Rene S.
January 14th 09, 05:09 PM
> Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
> since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
> suggests adding human *table protein, including some fat , chicken,
> fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) *in small amounts, to
> her diet.
> Will do.

I have to disagree with your vet here. A high-quality canned food is
an excellent diet for cats, much much better than dry food. Read this
good article for information on feline nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org/

A raw diet is also an excellent idea like Debbie suggested, but it
must be a balanced diet. There are commercial raw diets available
(Nature's Variety is one) or you can make your own. However, I suggest
you read up on the subject first. This site is an excellent resource
for raw diets: http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.php

DWMeowMix
January 14th 09, 05:20 PM
On Jan 14, 10:09*am, "Rene S." > wrote:
> > Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
> > since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
> > suggests adding human *table protein, including some fat , chicken,
> > fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) *in small amounts, to
> > her diet.
> > Will do.
>
> I have to disagree with your vet here. A high-quality canned food is
> an excellent diet for cats, much much better than dry food. Read this
> good article for information on feline nutrition:http://www.catinfo.org/
>
> A raw diet is also an excellent idea like Debbie suggested, but it
> must be a balanced diet. There are commercial raw diets available
> (Nature's Variety is one) or you can make your own. However, I suggest
> you read up on the subject first. This site is an excellent resource
> for raw diets:http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.php

Thank you Rene! I was reading back over these posts and thought I
needed to suggest the option of a commercial raw diet but you beat me
to it. Good show!

Debbie

MaryL
January 15th 09, 04:43 PM
"Sylvia M" > wrote in message
...
>I spoke to her rescue parents this weekend and we went to the veterinarian
>today.
> Her rescue parents checked her mother's teeth and all bottom incisors were
> present.
> However when mother and kittens were trapped, the kittens were a few days
> old and scrawny, as was the mother.
> Vet said so probably not hereditary, but you don't know 'dad'.
> Could be malnourishment during early development.
> Not 'normal', though cases are occasionally seen in his practice,
> sometimes worse.
> Also some general gum inflammation noted. Average accumulation of tarter.
> Otherwise cat is in xlnt shape.
> So...antibiotics to clear up inflammation, pre-op blood panel done, then
> teeth will be scaled and cleaned in about 10 days.
>
> Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
> since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
> suggests adding human table protein, including some fat , chicken, fish,
> turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) in small amounts, to her
> diet.
> Will do.
>
> Thanks to all for your concern.
>
> Sylvia M.
>
>
>

Wasn't your vet more specific than this? First, you said the "feels that
catfood is not the best food for cats." Then, you said he made suggestions
for adding human table protein "in small amounts." What diet were you
supposed to use as the primary diet (beyond the "small amounts" of human
table protein)? This can be very dangerous for a cat if you are not going
to use cat food because cats have very specific nutritional requirements.
The exception is for people who feed a raw diet, but NOT just *any* raw
diet. Again, there are specific ingredients that must be added (such as
taurine). This concerns me, except that I suspect something has been lost
in the translation. Please give us more details.

MaryL

Sylvia M
January 16th 09, 01:13 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Sylvia M" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I spoke to her rescue parents this weekend and we went to the
>>veterinarian today.
>> Her rescue parents checked her mother's teeth and all bottom incisors
>> were present.
>> However when mother and kittens were trapped, the kittens were a few
>> days old and scrawny, as was the mother.
>> Vet said so probably not hereditary, but you don't know 'dad'.
>> Could be malnourishment during early development.
>> Not 'normal', though cases are occasionally seen in his practice,
>> sometimes worse.
>> Also some general gum inflammation noted. Average accumulation of
>> tarter.
>> Otherwise cat is in xlnt shape.
>> So...antibiotics to clear up inflammation, pre-op blood panel done,
>> then teeth will be scaled and cleaned in about 10 days.
>>
>> Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats,
>> and since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet)
>> he suggests adding human table protein, including some fat ,
>> chicken, fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) in small
>> amounts, to her diet.
>> Will do.
>>
>> Thanks to all for your concern.
>>
>> Sylvia M.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Wasn't your vet more specific than this? First, you said the "feels
> that catfood is not the best food for cats." Then, you said he made
> suggestions for adding human table protein "in small amounts." What
> diet were you supposed to use as the primary diet (beyond the "small
> amounts" of human table protein)? This can be very dangerous for a
> cat if you are not going to use cat food because cats have very
> specific nutritional requirements. The exception is for people who
> feed a raw diet, but NOT just *any* raw diet. Again, there are
> specific ingredients that must be added (such as taurine). This
> concerns me, except that I suspect something has been lost in the
> translation. Please give us more details.
>
> MaryL
>
Yes...not just table protein.
I will continue with Royal Canin dry lite free feed.
I will continue 1/4 can Wellness morning and evening.
I will add some lightly cooked chix, fish, turkey pork or beef
3-5 x a week.
The cat is and has been healthy, weight is normal,
is regulating her intake (weight same) even though on free feed dry.
Blood panel came out very good.

Does need a cleaning, want to keep remaining teeth and her gums healthy;
so will do in a couple of weeks.

Sylvia M.

cybercat
January 16th 09, 01:26 AM
"Sylvia M" > wrote
>>
> Yes...not just table protein.
> I will continue with Royal Canin dry lite free feed.
> I will continue 1/4 can Wellness morning and evening.
> I will add some lightly cooked chix, fish, turkey pork or beef
> 3-5 x a week.
> The cat is and has been healthy, weight is normal,
> is regulating her intake (weight same) even though on free feed dry.
> Blood panel came out very good.
>
> Does need a cleaning, want to keep remaining teeth and her gums healthy;
> so will do in a couple of weeks.
>

No five-year-old cat whose teeth have fallen out is in good health. Nothing
you are doing is as good for your cat as a controlled diet of canned food
divided in half and fed every 12 hours would be. Since you haven't tried it,
you have no idea. And your vet did NOT say that she does not recommend cat
food for cats. She knows they need taurine and other elements not present in
food prepared for humans. You free feed dry because you are lazy. The RC
food you are feeding is expensive. You would likely save money on an all
canned diet. And Wellness is unecessary. Cats don't need blueberries. Any
canned food that has real meat as the first ingredient and no grains is
fine. Do what you want,. but don't come in here spouting horse**** that your
vet allegedly said. There are people who care enough to do the right thing.

Magdalena Cano Plewinska
January 16th 09, 01:29 AM
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:59:40 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:

>onions/garlic/chocolate
>(I always forget if thats dogs or cats but one cant take chocolate and the
>other had onion family issues)

Onions and other alliums a problem for cats, chocolate for dogs.

But I remember reading somewhere that methyl xanthines (like
theobromine in chocolate, caffeine in coffee) have a narrow
therapeutic index in cats as well, so it's probably not a good idea to
feed then to cats, either.

--
Magdalena Plewinska
Miami, FL, USA
klon at bassarella dot net

---MIKE---
January 16th 09, 01:28 PM
Cybercat wrote:

>And Wellness is unnecessary. Cats don't
> need blueberries. Any canned food that
> has real meat as the first ingredient and
> no grains is fine.

Sorry Cybercat but Wellness HAS real meat (in my case chicken) as the
first ingredient. There are no by-products or grain. I feed Tiger and
Amber two cans of Wellness every day.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Lesley
January 16th 09, 03:49 PM
On 15 Jan, 17:29, Magdalena Cano Plewinska > wrote:

>
> Onions and other alliums a problem for cats, chocolate for dogs.
>
Chocolate can also be dangerous for cats not to mention fattening and
bad for their teeth (just like in Humans) the problem is the
theobromine whose toxicity is weight dependant so a couple of squares
amounts to a dangerous overdose in a cat due to their relatively small
body weight

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

cybercat
January 16th 09, 05:26 PM
"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Cybercat wrote:

>And Wellness is unnecessary. Cats don't
> need blueberries. Any canned food that
> has real meat as the first ingredient and
> no grains is fine.

>Sorry Cybercat but Wellness HAS real meat (in my case chicken) as the
>first ingredient. There are no by-products or grain. I feed Tiger and
>Amber two cans of Wellness every day.


Did I say it did not have real meat? I said it was not necessary. Wellness
is a wonderful brand of cat food with excellent nutrition, but it is more
expensive than most. Since the OP feeds her cat "1/4 can" of Wellness twice
a day, I assumed she might do better if the cat food were cheaper.

cshenk
January 16th 09, 10:51 PM
"Magdalena Cano Plewinska" wrote
> "cshenk" wrote:

>>onions/garlic/chocolate
>>(I always forget if thats dogs or cats but one cant take chocolate and the
>>other had onion family issues)
>
> Onions and other alliums a problem for cats, chocolate for dogs.

There ya are. Thanks! ;-)

> But I remember reading somewhere that methyl xanthines (like
> theobromine in chocolate, caffeine in coffee) have a narrow
> therapeutic index in cats as well, so it's probably not a good idea to
> feed then to cats, either.

Probably not, and no sense in giving Dogs onions either.

Meantime a vet approved 'mid-day meal' given today seems not all that far
off from what Sylvia may be doing:

Cat: (Daisy)
3 TB stock, chicken, made from cracked bones
1 ts duck fat

Dog: (Cash)
1/2 cup stock, chicken, made from cracked bones
1/2 TB duck fat (his skin has been getting slightly dry)

Minced and added proportionally, cooked minimally in the broth, 4 chicken
livers, 2 chicken hearts.

Since I make stock at 2 gallons or so a shot, it's pretty easy to make this
mid-day munchie. I cant get canned stock as good nor as low salt as Don
needs so I learned to make it fast and easy. Nice by-product of that habit
is it's so cheap to make, we can afford to feed it to the pets.

cshenk
January 16th 09, 11:06 PM
"Sylvia M" wrote

>>> Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for cats, and
>>> since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete carnivore diet) he
>>> suggests adding human table protein, including some fat , chicken,
>>> fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked, chopped) in small amounts, to
>>> her diet.

Hehehehe your phrasing is why some do not understand. I had that problem
here once with a comment too. It came off to others as if I dryfed my cat
and only added to an existing dry bowl every few days. That wasnt the case
at all, but it sounded like it though those who wished to find something to
pick on.

> Yes...not just table protein.
> I will continue with Royal Canin dry lite free feed.
> I will continue 1/4 can Wellness morning and evening.
> I will add some lightly cooked chix, fish, turkey pork or beef
> 3-5 x a week.

Quite sensible. I dont use wellness here, because I havent found it.

For the fish, Daisy is quite partial to Tilapia. Maybe I'll do Dashi broth
with tilapia for them tomorrow. Cash isnt as fond of tilapia but Daisy will
munch up his little bits left over.

> The cat is and has been healthy, weight is normal,
> is regulating her intake (weight same) even though on free feed dry.
> Blood panel came out very good.

Thats good. Probably tooth problem is due to malnutrition then as a kitten.
You may want to look into natural calcium additives for her at reasonable
intervals in small kitty level amounts (this is why we crack the bones for
the stock).

We have no idea of Daisy's health before we got her. Just that she has her
teeth now and though slightly weak, still in normal range. She had gum
problems when we got her, but no longer. Vet warned that too much calcium
was as bad as too little for a cat but said there is no such worry with the
dog.

> Does need a cleaning, want to keep remaining teeth and her gums healthy;
> so will do in a couple of weeks.

Ok! Expect her to be groggy still when she gets back. It will wear off.

Sylvia M
January 17th 09, 06:04 PM
"cshenk" > wrote in message
...
> "Sylvia M" wrote
>
>>>> Oh...and diet? Vet feels that catfood is not the best food for
>>>> cats, and since I'm not going to feed her mice (a complete
>>>> carnivore diet) he suggests adding human table protein, including
>>>> some fat , chicken, fish, turkey, pork and some beef (cooked,
>>>> chopped) in small amounts, to her diet.
>
> Hehehehe your phrasing is why some do not understand. I had that
> problem here once with a comment too. It came off to others as if I
> dryfed my cat and only added to an existing dry bowl every few days.
> That wasnt the case at all, but it sounded like it though those who
> wished to find something to pick on.
>
>> Yes...not just table protein.
>> I will continue with Royal Canin dry lite free feed.
>> I will continue 1/4 can Wellness morning and evening.
>> I will add some lightly cooked chix, fish, turkey pork or beef
>> 3-5 x a week.
>
> Quite sensible. I dont use wellness here, because I havent found it.
>
> For the fish, Daisy is quite partial to Tilapia. Maybe I'll do Dashi
> broth with tilapia for them tomorrow. Cash isnt as fond of tilapia
> but Daisy will munch up his little bits left over.
>
>> The cat is and has been healthy, weight is normal,
>> is regulating her intake (weight same) even though on free feed dry.
>> Blood panel came out very good.
>
> Thats good. Probably tooth problem is due to malnutrition then as a
> kitten. You may want to look into natural calcium additives for her at
> reasonable intervals in small kitty level amounts (this is why we
> crack the bones for the stock).
>
> We have no idea of Daisy's health before we got her. Just that she
> has her teeth now and though slightly weak, still in normal range.
> She had gum problems when we got her, but no longer. Vet warned that
> too much calcium was as bad as too little for a cat but said there is
> no such worry with the dog.
>
>> Does need a cleaning, want to keep remaining teeth and her gums
>> healthy;
>> so will do in a couple of weeks.
>
> Ok! Expect her to be groggy still when she gets back. It will wear
> off.
>
What is Dashi broth?
The tilapia might work, salmon doesn't.
That might be a soothing food after her cleaning.
Also, since her gums will probably be sore,
I'll switch to 1/2 can of Wellness at each feeding
and pick up the dry food dishes.

Thanks again for your kind advice,

cshenk
January 17th 09, 08:43 PM
"Sylvia M" wrote

> What is Dashi broth?

It's a fish broth. The name is japanese for it. I used to make it fresh
but the powdered version is dirt cheap bought in bulk at 15$ for 1500
servings (3/4 cup).

> The tilapia might work, salmon doesn't.

Oddly, never had a cat yet that liked tuna. Never had one yet that didnt
like Tiliapia.

> That might be a soothing food after her cleaning.
> Also, since her gums will probably be sore,
> I'll switch to 1/2 can of Wellness at each feeding
> and pick up the dry food dishes.

That works!

Meantime, today mid-day pet munchie was as said. I fixed me and Charlotte
some tilapia but peeled off some snipped bits for the pets and dumped them
in the dashi.

Cash left about 1 TB of tilapia in his bowl which Daisy quickly
appropriated. Fair is fair. When I fix him bacon she just nibbles a little
then lets him have the rest ;-)

I wouldnt worry too much about a little dry left down. If she doesnt feel
comfortable eating it, she wont.

When I tried (advice from here) to convert Daisy to completely wet, she
simply would not do it without behavioral problems. She was left alone and
feral for quite time and her 'comfort' means 'always some nibbles, even if
I am not hungry i know it's there'.

We put about 1 TB dry in a bowl for her each day. Now and again, she'll
reach in to grab a 'treat' but she eats mostly wet food. Next monring,
about 1/2 that kibble is left over and gets added to the dog's dish ;-)

Taking all dry away from Daisy is 'un-good'. I really do not care if others
agree or disagree. I know my kitty.

I also happen to agree with your vet as well as my vet does. A reasonable
amount of augmented meat (fixed without onions or salt) is good for them and
will not harm them at all. You dont even need supplimented taurine with the
way you are doing it.

Now feeding 3 times a day is *not* required. We add the nooner munchie just
because we like the idea. We probably feed less at 'Breakfast' and 'dinner'
to adjust for it.

cybercat
January 17th 09, 09:44 PM
"Sylvia M" > wrote
> I'll switch to 1/2 can of Wellness at each feeding
> and pick up the dry food dishes.

An excellent idea.