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missToni
February 3rd 09, 02:58 AM
I'm fostering a cat for a friend right now. He split with his wife,
she's suddenly developed severe allergies to the poor creature, and I
offered to look after him (the cat) while he sorted his life out or
found another home for him.

Well, the cat has displayed some disturbing behaviour (he's been here
since first week of January). He's a 3 year old neutered male, in good
health. He has a habit of humping in the middle of the night, on my
duvet with me under it! Every night. The first night I thought he
was getting cuddly, jamming his face into mine and kneading the
blanket. Then I cottoned on to what was happening. If he jumps on my
lap when I'm on the sofa, same thing. If he were doing it to a
stuffed toy, I wouldn't mind so much, but he's depriving me of my
sleep because I have to get up and put him out of my bedroom and block
his way back in. The humping has been going on pretty much since the
start.

Then he defecated on my bed last week. He uses his litter box and
covers well, almost obsessively.
This night he came to his box and started covering, but hadn't done
his business, or so I thought till I went into my room and smelled the
gift. He eats only wet food, so it was a lot stinky! My friend then
divulged that he had done this in the past when he couldnt' go outside
because of the weather. A fact that would have kept me from having
him at all.

Finally, he lunged at and bit my mother with no provocation on
Friday. When I say no provocation, I mean he wasn't being petted and
getting annoyed, because this has happened frequently (and I pet
gently) and when it does I simply say "no" and stop touching him.
This time, he launched at her at the top of the stairs, bit her arm
and broke the skin and left a bruise.

I am really upset. I lost my own cat about two months ago. I wasn't
ready for another permanent animal, was doing something to help a
friend, and now I feel like I"m saddled with a problem cat who may
never get better ( I believe this all stems from a lack of proper
training). I can't in good conscience let someone else adopt this cat
without telling them about these issues.

Any advice on how to retrain this cat? I realise the biting is
probably due to stress or anxiety. But the humping and the pooing?
Please help!

February 3rd 09, 01:01 PM
On Feb 2, 9:58*pm, missToni > wrote:

> Any advice on how to retrain this cat? *I realise the biting is
> probably due to stress or anxiety. But the humping and the pooing?
> Please help!

You are getting a great deal of displacement behavior - and no
surprise at all given the amount of stress this animal has been under
these last few months. He is pretty much trying everything to get
security and attention.

Kneading: That is how kittens "start the milk" when they nurse. He is
reverting to kittenhood in hopes of getting the same attention he got
from his mother - affection and licking (cleaning). He wants to be
petted, probably somewhat roughly. After which he very likely go a
kick/bite reaction. That is, grab you with his front paws, bite and
kick with his hind paws. This can be quite a painful surprise if you
are not prepared for it, and often it is taken for an attack. It
really isn't at all - it is what kittens do when they are happy.

Now, what happens is when he is at his most kittenish, you reject him,
which raises his level of anxiety even more, which causes more
displacement behavior - and so forth.

As to the pooping on the bed - AGAIN, he is *looking for mother* in so
many words - Mom would clean him and give him a special bath when in
the nest.

One last thing as part of the displacement behavior spectrum: he sees
your mother as another one of your kittens - and therefore potential
competition as well as a potential playmate. Kittens play rough.

The litter behavior is pretty obvious - cats are no more fond of their
poop than you are, the exception being intact males who use it as a
territorial marker. Keep his litter clean, and make sure there is
enough of it so that he can cover properly. Scoop it as quickly as
practical and change the litter as often as practical.

What to do:

I am assuming that this is a 100% indoor cat.

a) Establish that he his thorougly healthy, has no worms or other
parasites, and is up-to-date in his shots.
b) Taper him off of a wet-food-only diet. This is not as difficult as
it seems as cats won't starve in the presence of food even if you
think they might. Start with leaving dry food beside his wet food, and
start to reduce the amount of wet food by a small amount. If that does
not work, try mixing a bit of wet with the dry during that transition.
At the end of the process, you should have him about 1:1 by volume wet
to dry. This also has the benefit of keeping his teeth clean. Look for
low-magnesium, low-ash dry food to avoid kidney stones as you do not
know his entire history.
c) Provide a natural source of roughage - "Kitty Greens", or sprout
some popcorn or some such thing. The cat will very much enjoy this and
generally eat better and feel better because if it.
d) Establish a routine of play and attention so that he knows that at
certain times he will get your exclusive attention. Wear gloves if
necessary but also _VERY_ gently correct him when he goes into his
kick/bite reaction. More pets, not rejection and slaps. For play, try
an laser pointer and see if that gets him going.
e) Provide additional stimulation for when you are not paying
attention to him. Our cats have a 'squeeky-mouse' toy hanging from a
door-jamb on an elastic cord. When it is whacked it has an electronic
squeek that gets them all fired up. Even the old guy gets into that.
f) As a last resort, there are drugs for this that your vet will
discuss with you. Buspirone is the most common, but there are others.
Note that such drugs are *NOT* a life-sentence, but typically used
only to re-establish the cat into a healthy and happy routine, after
which they should be fine without it.

Good luck with him.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Rene S.
February 3rd 09, 02:16 PM
> b) Taper him off of a wet-food-only diet. This is not as difficult as
> it seems as cats won't starve in the presence of food even if you
> think they might. Start with leaving dry food beside his wet food, and
> start to reduce the amount of wet food by a small amount. If that does
> not work, try mixing a bit of wet with the dry during that transition.
> At the end of the process, you should have him about 1:1 by volume wet
> to dry. This also has the benefit of keeping his teeth clean. Look for
> low-magnesium, low-ash dry food to avoid kidney stones as you do not
> know his entire history.

Please don't take him off of wet food! There are many health benefits
to feeding a wet-only diet. If his poo is stinky, try feeding him a
higher-quality brand of food, preferably one without grains, such as
Wellness, Nature's Variety or Innove Evo 95. Here's a great article
about feline nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org

I applaud you for taking this poor cat in. He's been through a lot
emotionally, and needs a stable household with a routine. Keep in mind
that at 3, he is very much an active youngster with a lot of energy.
He needs stimulation and play to release this energy. Play with him at
least twice a day. This will also help him trust you and bond with
you.

As for the defecating problem, how many boxes do you have and how
often do you clean them? Some cats prefer to urinate in one box and
defecate in another. Scoop 1-2x/day and keep the boxes very clean. I'd
recommend taking him (and a stool sample) to the vet for a check up.

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do about the humping problem.
It might be something related to his anxiety/stress levels. Best to
ignore the behavior. One of my cats did this at about that age and
eventually 'outgrew' it.

February 3rd 09, 03:04 PM
On Feb 3, 9:16*am, "Rene S." > wrote:

> Please don't take him off of wet food! There are many health benefits
> to feeding a wet-only diet. If his poo is stinky, try feeding him a
> higher-quality brand of food, preferably one without grains, such as
> Wellness, Nature's Variety or Innove Evo 95. Here's a great article
> about feline nutrition:http://www.catinfo.org


Well... yes and no. Yes, if the alternative is a poor-quality dry
food. Yes, if the cat is a poor-or-no drinker and cannot be trained to
drink ordinary water. Yes if the cat already has complications due to
urinary tract infections or kidney stones *due to poor diet*.

And, the website you suggest does give accurate (if incomplete)
information on dietary requirements for cats. But, consider a few
other very real health-related issues that are addressed by a mixed
diet (an exclusive-dry diet is as incomplete as an exclusive-wet diet,
by the way):

Dental and gum health: Wet-food only diets do still and most often
contain considerable vegetable protein and fillers, gluten and gluten
meals being the biggest sources. And very often in about the same
proportion-by-percentage as dry food - the difference being the water
content. Which means that without sufficient roughage and hard bits
(the equivalent of rodent stomach content, bones, hair and skin)
tartar *WILL* build up in the cat's mouth leading to all sorts of
health problems. And I would posit that 99-44/100ths of cat (or dog)
owners simply do not brush their pets' teeth regularly - even at all -
leaving that to the vet perhaps once a year or so. Properly designed
dry food acts as a tooth-brush-in-passing for cats much as apples do
for people - not a complete solution but far, far better than wet
food.

Roughage: Cats get their natural roughage from grasses and the stomach
contents of their prey. House cats seldom have access to fresh greens,
never get 'stomach contents' and wet food is typically _very_ low in
any sort of fiber. A well-balanced dry food provides a good source of
fiber for a cat.

Digestive Health: In part, another reason for fiber, in part better
management of secondary dietary issues such as hairballs and the like.
Properly designed dry foods aid in passing small hairballs or
collecting for regurgitation larger ones. Much as the skin-and-hair of
natural prey performs this function. Wet foods simply do not do this,
nor can they just as skinned, gutted and deboned mice would not do
it.

Obesity: Yes, wet food is less concentrated protein than dry food, but
at the same time, a balanced diet will provide additional fiber and
roughage that only wet food will not. This will tend to satisfy
appetite better, and also allow cats to be demand-eaters rather than
scheduled eaters. Habitual demand eaters as a group tend to be slimmer
and more active than scheduled eaters as the latter will eat
everything they can, not knowing when their next meal is coming from
by their standard of measure.

Bottom-line: A well-designed, well balanced dry food is an important
tool in managing a cat's overall health. This is most important when
we are managing exclusive-indoor cats which do not get exposed to
natural prey and the benefits from it, and who are very limited in
their activities by the nature of their environment.

And, lastly, on the drinking-water problem: Cats have an acute sense
of smell - far better than ours and as-good-or-better than a dog's
albeit on a different section of the olfactory curve. Most water we
attempt to give them, put bluntly, tastes and smells like crap as far
as they are concerned. Chlorine, plastics, chemicals, or worse. Why is
it that cats (and many dogs) prefer to drink from toilets? It is
pretty obvious - that water has been sitting in a tank, and now sits
in a nice ceramic bowl with a wide surface exposure. So, the nasty
volatiles evaporate, the metals and particulates settle to the bottom
and the water taste (to them) much cleaner. It is also at room-
temperature - something they prefer.

Writing for ourselves, we 'age' tap water in the winter for our
animals in glass bottles. In the summer, we collect rain water (mostly
for gardening, but the cats also benefit). We also keep the toilets
quite clean and do not use harsh/harmful chemicals to do so. So what
if they use them? As long as they are drinking - and they do. We also
keep fresh (OK, aged) water all over the house for them - which does
get used.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

June[_2_]
February 3rd 09, 09:56 PM
"missToni" > wrote in message
...
>
> I am really upset. I lost my own cat about two months ago. I wasn't
> ready for another permanent animal, was doing something to help a
> friend, and now I feel like I"m saddled with a problem cat who may
> never get better ( I believe this all stems from a lack of proper
> training). I can't in good conscience let someone else adopt this cat
> without telling them about these issues.
>
> Any advice on how to retrain this cat? I realise the biting is
> probably due to stress or anxiety. But the humping and the pooing?
> Please help!
>
>
Hi ....I've used a product called Feliway. You can buy it as a diffuser
that you plug into the wall and a spray bottle that you can spray on bedding
or any area where there's a problem. My cat got upset when we went on
vacation even though someone was here to check on him everyday. He started
peeing on the floor. This product is like a tranquilizer to the stressed
cat and calms them down. I plugged in the diffuser in the room where he was
having the problem. No more problems.
My daughter has a cat that is jealous of the other animals in the house and
this product worked wonders. No more peeing on my grandson's bed and a much
friendlier cat. Feliway contains cat pheromones.
It's cheaper to buy Feliway online but most pet stores or Vets keep it in
stock. I've heard it doesn't work on all cats but it has made a believer
out of me.....June

honeybunch
February 3rd 09, 11:33 PM
On Feb 2, 9:58*pm, missToni > wrote:
> I'm fostering a cat for a friend right now. *He split with his wife,
> she's suddenly developed severe allergies to the poor creature, and I
> offered to look after him (the cat) while he sorted his life out or
> found another home for him.
>
> Well, the cat has displayed some disturbing behaviour (he's been here
> since first week of January). He's a 3 year old neutered male, in good
> health. * He has a habit of humping in the middle of the night, on my
> duvet with me under it! *Every night. *The first night I thought he
> was getting cuddly, jamming his face into mine and kneading the
> blanket. Then I cottoned on to what was happening. If he jumps on my
> lap when I'm on the sofa, same thing. *If he were doing it to a
> stuffed toy, I wouldn't mind so much, but he's depriving me of my
> sleep because I have to get up and put him out of my bedroom and block
> his way back in. *The humping has been going on pretty much since the
> start.
>
> Then he defecated on my bed last week. *He uses his litter box and
> covers well, almost obsessively.
> This night he came to his box and started covering, but hadn't done
> his business, or so I thought till I went into my room and smelled the
> gift. *He eats only wet food, so it was a lot stinky! *My friend then
> divulged that he had done this in the past when he couldnt' go outside
> because of the weather. *A fact that would have kept me from having
> him at all.
>
> Finally, he lunged at and bit my mother with no provocation on
> Friday. *When I say no provocation, I mean he wasn't being petted and
> getting annoyed, because this has happened frequently (and I pet
> gently) and when it does I simply say "no" and stop touching him.
> This time, he launched at her at the top of the stairs, bit her arm
> and broke the skin and left a bruise.
>
> I am really upset. *I lost my own cat about two months ago. *I wasn't
> ready for another permanent animal, was doing something to help a
> friend, and now I feel like I"m saddled with a problem cat who may
> never get better ( I believe this all stems from a lack of proper
> training). *I can't in good conscience let someone else adopt this cat
> without telling them about these issues.
>
> Any advice on how to retrain this cat? *I realise the biting is
> probably due to stress or anxiety. But the humping and the pooing?
> Please help!

You dont say if this cat has been spayed and neutered. Has he? If
not, he needs to be. You indicate that your friend told you he gets
wild when he cant go outside because of the weather. So right away we
have 2 potential issues that need research.. "Humping" is a strange
word to use. It usually refers to sexual activity. Is that what you
mean? Most cats "knead" as though they were making bread when they
are getting comfy. That is normal. But "humping" is something that
dogs do frequently to the odd leg that comes into their vision if they
have nothing else to "hump." If the cat poops on your your bed, then
it would be wise to keep the door closed and not let him in the room.

missToni
February 4th 09, 01:12 AM
Hi Peter
Thanks for the comprehensive replies! The cat eats one can of wet
food a day, with dry food available for free feeding. He's not got a
weight problem. One thing he does not do is drink water, so I don't
want to take him off the wet. I age my water 24 hours then filter it
through a Brita filter, and serve it up fresh in a ceramic bowl. Short
of getting one of those continuous recirculating fountains, I don't
know how to get him to drink. His poo doesn't smell in the box,
because he covers it. It just smelled really gross when I had to
gather it off my duvet, still warm. He's really fastidious about his
box, and I scoop it twice daily and keep it topped up with fresh
litter frequently. As my friend neglected to tell me, he has done
that in the past when annoyed at not being able to go outside, so I
think it's an emotional thing, rather than not liking his box. It
only happened the once, so far, and fingers crossed it won't again.
Cheers
Toni

missToni
February 4th 09, 01:16 AM
On Feb 3, 4:56*pm, "June" > wrote:
> "missToni" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > I am really upset. *I lost my own cat about two months ago. *I wasn't
> > ready for another permanent animal, was doing something to help a
> > friend, and now I feel like I"m saddled with a problem cat who may
> > never get better ( I believe this all stems from a lack of proper
> > training). *I can't in good conscience let someone else adopt this cat
> > without telling them about these issues.
>
> > Any advice on how to retrain this cat? *I realise the biting is
> > probably due to stress or anxiety. But the humping and the pooing?
> > Please help!
>
> Hi ....I've used a product called Feliway. *You can buy it as a diffuser
> that you plug into the wall and a spray bottle that you can spray on bedding
> or any area where there's a problem. *My cat got upset when we went on
> vacation even though someone was here to check on him everyday. *He started
> peeing on the floor. *This product is like a tranquilizer to the stressed
> cat and calms them down. *I plugged in the diffuser in the room where he was
> having the problem. *No more problems.
> My daughter has a cat that is jealous of the other animals in the house and
> this product worked wonders. *No more peeing on my grandson's bed and a much
> friendlier cat. *Feliway contains cat pheromones.
> It's cheaper to buy Feliway online but most pet stores or Vets keep it in
> stock. *I've heard it doesn't work on all cats but it has made a believer
> out of me.....June

Hi June
I've heard of that. I think I'll try it. I'm going away for a week in
March, and that might help calm him as he will be alone a lot of the
time (a couple of ppl will be dropping by to spend time with him).
Thanks!
Toni

missToni
February 4th 09, 01:29 AM
> Kneading: That is how kittens "start the milk" when they nurse. He is
> reverting to kittenhood in hopes of getting the same attention he got
> from his mother - affection and licking (cleaning). He wants to be
> petted, probably somewhat roughly. After which he very likely go a
> kick/bite reaction. That is, grab you with his front paws, bite and
> kick with his hind paws. This can be quite a painful surprise if you
> are not prepared for it, and often it is taken for an attack. It
> really isn't at all - it is what kittens do when they are happy.

This is more aggressive than the normal kick/bite reaction. He'll lie
back with his teeth bared, almost as if he's panting. I just stop
petting him when I see the tail start twitching. Waiting for the
scratches to heal!


>
> One last thing as part of the displacement behavior spectrum: he sees
> your mother as another one of your kittens - and therefore potential
> competition as well as a potential playmate. Kittens play rough.

Although my mother would be flattered to be thought of as a kitten,
this wasn't a play thing. I wasn't home at the time, but she said he
had been racing about the house, then suddenly lunged at her and sunk
his teeth into her arm.



> I am assuming that this is a 100% indoor cat.

No, he goes outside, though I didn't want to let him out until he was
secure here. I started letting him out after the bed pooping
incident. He's up to date on shots.


> c) Provide a natural source of roughage - "Kitty Greens", or sprout
> some popcorn or some such thing. The cat will very much enjoy this and
> generally eat better and feel better because if it.


Sprout some popcorn? Sounds neat...I'll have to look that up. This
cat doesn't like catnip!

> d) Establish a routine of play and attention so that he knows that at
> certain times he will get your exclusive attention. Wear gloves if
> necessary but also _VERY_ gently correct him when he goes into his
> kick/bite reaction. More pets, not rejection and slaps. For play, try
> an laser pointer and see if that gets him going.

he doesn't like the laser pointer either, nor does he jump into every
box you put on the floor. The cat's not normal, I tell ya! :-)
Though he retrieves rubber bands like a dog. I can shoot one around
the room for hours, and he'll bring it back and lay it at my feet like
a dead mouse. I thought he would make a terrific barn cat, but he has
been declawed (NOT by me, I would never do that), so that's not an
option.

Thanks for the ideas!
Toni

missToni
February 4th 09, 01:30 AM
> You dont say if this cat has been spayed and neutered. *Has he? *If
> not, he needs to be. *You indicate that your friend told you he gets
> wild when he cant go outside because of the weather. *So right away we
> have 2 potential issues that need research.. *"Humping" is a strange
> word to use. *It usually refers to sexual activity. Is that what you
> mean? *Most cats "knead" as though they were making bread when they
> are getting comfy. *That is normal. *But "humping" is something that
> dogs do frequently to the odd leg that comes into their vision if they
> have nothing else to "hump." *If the cat poops on your your bed, then
> it would be wise to keep the door closed and not let him in the room.- Hide quoted text -


Yes, he has been neutered. He'll be sleeping at the foot of the bed,
then the minute I turn on my back he'll climb up on my chest, then
position himself so his butt is against my arm or whatever and start
going at it. I know that look of ecstasy! Plus he has an erection.
When I shoo him off, he'll go off and lick it. It happens during the
day too, if I'm stretched out on the sofa. He's not going to be a lap
cat, that's for sure!

missToni
February 4th 09, 04:38 AM
On Feb 3, 8:12*pm, missToni > wrote:
> Hi Peter
> Thanks for the comprehensive replies! *The cat eats one can of wet
> food a day, with dry food available for free feeding. *He's not got a
> weight problem. *One thing he does not do is drink water, so I don't
> want to take him off the wet. *I age my water 24 hours then filter it
> through a Brita filter, and serve it up fresh in a ceramic bowl. Short
> of getting one of those continuous recirculating fountains, I don't
> know how to get him to drink. His poo doesn't smell in the box,
> because he covers it. *It just smelled really gross when I had to
> gather it off my duvet, still warm. *He's really fastidious about his
> box, and I scoop it twice daily and keep it topped up with fresh
> litter frequently. *As my friend neglected to tell me, he has done
> that in the past when annoyed at not being able to go outside, so I
> think it's an emotional thing, rather than not liking his box. *It
> only happened the once, so far, and fingers crossed it won't again.
> Cheers
> Toni

Talk about tempting fate. He did it again tonight. This time just a
little poo, but on the bed again. And we've had such a good day, lots
of play, patting, positive attention. I let him out once, for 5
minutes, then offered later to let him out again and he didn't want to
go. I'm trying to be patient. How long should I give him to settle
down?

Rene S.
February 4th 09, 01:57 PM
[snipped]

With all due respect, Peter, you come across as an educated man, but
when it comes to cat nutrition/issues, you seem woefully ignorant. I
don't mean this as an insult, but only as an observation. What you're
failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
Period. This is not negotiable. It's how they've evolved and what they
are, and if you put the wrong fuel in the engine long enough, it's
going to break down. Ten years ago what you state may have been
roundly accepted, but knowledge of feline nutrition and their unique
needs has advanced by leaps and bounds, and more and more vets are
starting to put physiologic needs and design over what the pet food
companies want them (and you) to believe. They don't call it
"corporate interests" for nothing...

To address your points-

Gum and dental health: It's been known for some time that the myth
that dry food is good for dental health is just that: a myth. Cats'
teeth are designed for cutting and tearing and do not have enough
contact time for dry food to have any direct benefit. Offering the cat
braised chicken gizzards or raw chicken wings (provided they are from
a good source and not commercially raised) are better options. Both
require extended contact time with the teeth (gnawing) and are far
superior in contributing to dental health, although brushing is ideal.
See this article (written by a veterinarian) that explains the dry
food myth in detail : http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=doesdryfoodcleantheteeth

Roughage: Cats are carnivores and don't have a proven need for fiber.
Any fiber they do get would be from the stomach contents of their
prey, which is a small part of their diet. If you're truly concerned
about this, you can grow your own cat grass at home and offer that.
Feeding a raw diet containing ground bone is another option. When I
became educated about what appropriate nutrition for an obligate
carnivore is and switched from high fiber dry to grain free, canned
and raw foods, the hairballs I used to clean up all the time
diminished from common to rare.

Digestive health: Putting grains in the digestive tract of a carnivore
is a recipe for disaster. See Laura M.'s experiences with Hobbes on
this newsgroup. Cats are not properly able to utilize grains in their
diet (carnivore= short digestive tract+ limited amylase=undigested
grains=large stools.) Garbage in. garbage out. This is why we see IBD
and other intestinal isues with dry food doets. If you frequent the
IBD list, you'll find that most people have resolved or managed their
cats issues by feeding a raw or canned, grain free diet i.e food
appropriate for a *carnivore.*

Obesity: Free feeding is the #1 reason we have an epidemic of
overweight cats in this country. In the wild, cats are opportunistic
eaters and may eat only once a day depending on what prey they can
catch. Feeding scheduled meals is a lot closer to how they would eat
in nature than is allowing them to graze every few hours all day long.
A food with a high-grain (carbohydrate) content also contributes to
the epidemic of diabetes as well. See these sites (both written by
veterinarians) for more info: http://www.catnutrition.org/diabetes.php
and http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/

Also pay attention to this:

Sustained Hyperglycemia and Hyperlipidemia in Cats: Contribution of
Inflammation and Beta-Cell Loss to the Pathophysiology of Diabetes
E. Zini1; M. Osto2; M. Franchini3; F. Guscetti4; M. Donath5; A.
Perren6; P. Linscheid1; M. Bouwman7; M. Ackermann3; T.A. Lutz2; C.E.
Reusch1
1Clinic for Small Animal Internal Medicine; 2Inst. of Vet. Physiol.;
3Inst. of Virol.; 4Inst. of Vet. Pathol., Vetsuisse Faculty,
University of Zurich, Switzerland; 5Clinic for Endocrinol and
Diabetes, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland; 6Dept. of Pathol.,
Technical University of Munchen, Germany; 7Dept. of Clinical Sciences
of Companion Animals, Utrecht University, The Netherlands


Feline diabetes shares many similarities to human type 2 diabetes
mellitus (T2DM), including islet amyloidosis and -cell loss. Based on
cultured rodent and human islet cells, it has been demonstrated that
hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia in T2DM have a negative effect on -
cell viability. Exposure to high glucose or lipid levels induces
interleukin expression in cultured pancreatic islets, followed by Fas
receptor up-regulation and apoptosis of -cells. In addition, high
glucose levels upregulate islet chemokines and attract neutrophils and
macrophages. Inflammatory cells may contribute to pancreatic-islet
cell death in T2DM. The objective of this study was to investigate the
above findings in vivo in cats.

Eleven healthy cats were infused for 10 days with glucose (n=5) or
lipids (n=6) to target their blood concentrations at the approximate
level found in untreated feline diabetes (glucose: 450-540 mg/dl;
triglycerides: 265-620 mg/dl). As control groups, 10 healthy cats were
either infused with saline (n=5) or did not receive infusion (n=5). On
day 10, blood samples and pancreatic biopsies were collected. Levels
of 1-acid glycoprotein were measured in plasma samples. Isolated
pancreatic islets were used to quantify mRNA transcripts of cytokines
(IL-1, IL-6, TNF-) and chemokines (IL-8, MCP-1) by real-time PCR. In
addition, mRNA transcripts of Fas receptor were measured. To quantify
islet neutrophils, pancreatic sections were immunostained with insulin
and myeloperoxidase. Pancreatic sections stained with amylin or
insulin was used to quantify -cells in pancreatic islets by
morphometric analysis. Statistical differences between groups were
determined with non parametric tests.

Compared to controls, hyperglycemic cats had a 50% reduced number of -
cells per islet surface and an increased number of neutrophils
relative to -cells. More apoptotic cells were noted in the pancreatic
islets by light microscopy. In hyperlipidemic cats the number of -
cells and neutrophils did not differ from control cats. Plasma levels
of 1-acid glycoprotein were increased in cats on glucose and lipid
infusion. Islet quantities of cytokine, chemokines and Fas receptor
transcripts were not different between groups.

Sustained hyperglycemia causes -cell loss in pancreatic islets of
healthy cats, possibly through increased apoptosis. Even though
hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia are accompanied by a systemic
inflammatory response, inflammation does not seem to occur in
pancreatic islets under the present experimental conditions. The
increased number of neutrophils observed in the pancreatic islets of
hyperglycemic cats needs to be further explored.


Water: Studies have shown that cats that eat canned food have a much
higher overall water intake than a cat who eats dry food and has fresh
water available at all times. The constant state of dehydration that
results from being fed a dry food diet has been implicated in many cat-
health issues with kidney problems and urinary-tract issues being at
the top of the list. Educated veterinarians are increasingly
recommending canned food (including, I've been told, most of the board-
certified feline veterinarian consultants on the Veterinary
Information Network- VIN).

If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
Soylent green anyone?

cybercat
February 4th 09, 03:34 PM
"Rene S." > wrote

>If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
>dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
>Soylent green anyone?

Beautiful, informational post. I am so glad someone is willing to deal with
idiots like Peter. I don't really believe he cares about anything but
convenience and a snappy comeback, though. But thanks for your post anyway.

February 4th 09, 03:35 PM
On Feb 3, 11:38*pm, missToni > wrote:

> Talk about tempting fate. *He did it again tonight. This time just a
> little poo, but on the bed again. And we've had such a good day, lots
> of play, patting, positive attention. *I let him out once, for 5
> minutes, then offered later to let him out again and he didn't want to
> go. *I'm trying to be patient. *How long should I give him to settle
> down?-

Just one question - what was he like prior to this change? Do you have
any good, honest information on this?

Before you do anything else, make sure he is completely healthy - no
parasites and no infections. If he is healthy and 'going' on the bed,
then he is both very stressed out and very confused. The Feliway
mentioned by another poster is something to try, does not require a
prescription and does in some cases seem to work **BUT** if it does
not work in your case and **AGAIN** presuming physical health, you may
be forced to try an anti-anxiety drug treatment until he becomes more
secure. You are getting the worst sort of kitten-displacement behavior
out of him at this point and also giving him further stress by
rejecting him due to these habits being incompatible with your
lifestyle - no surprise that you should not like that on the bed, and
no surprise that you are not about to give him a good wash with your
tongue and then nurse him afterwards. Examples picked for effect.

The rule-of-thumb is that as long as he was initially stressed, he
will need about that much time to recover _ONCE_ equilibrium has been
established. Drugs do not speed the recover, just the reaching
equilibrium.

Some cats, especially 'only' cats do not do well with a change in
environment that also includes a change in people and a change in
'privileges' such as going from an indoor/outdoor to indoor only.
Funnily enough, cats from multiple-pet households do much better under
stressful changes, especially if one-or-another of their companions
also make the change, or their people also come along.

Patience. It will be worth it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

LauraM[_2_]
February 4th 09, 03:52 PM
On Feb 4, 5:57*am, "Rene S." > wrote:
> [snipped]
>
> With all due respect, Peter, you come across as an educated man, but
> when it comes to cat nutrition/issues, you seem woefully ignorant. I
> don't mean this as an insult, but only as an observation. What you're
> failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
> Period. This is not negotiable. It's how they've evolved and what they
> are, and if you put the wrong fuel in the engine long enough, it's
> going to break down. Ten years ago what you state may have been
> roundly accepted, but knowledge of feline nutrition and their unique
> needs has advanced by leaps and bounds, and more and more vets are
> starting to put physiologic needs and design over what the pet food
> companies want them (and you) to believe. They don't call it
> "corporate interests" for nothing...
>
> To address your points-
>
> Gum and dental health: It's been known for some time that the myth
> that dry food is good for dental health is just that: a myth. Cats'
> teeth are designed for cutting and tearing and do not have enough
> contact time for dry food to have any direct benefit. Offering the cat
> braised chicken gizzards or raw chicken wings (provided they are from
> a good source and not commercially raised) are better options. Both
> require extended contact time with the teeth (gnawing) and are far
> superior in contributing to dental health, although brushing is ideal.
> See this article (written by a veterinarian) that explains the dry
> food myth in detail :http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=do...
>
> Roughage: Cats are carnivores and don't have a proven need for fiber.
> Any fiber they do get would be from the stomach contents of their
> prey, which is a small part of their diet. If you're truly concerned
> about this, you can grow your own cat grass at home and offer that.
> Feeding a raw diet containing ground bone is another option. When I
> became educated about what appropriate nutrition for an obligate
> carnivore is and switched from high fiber dry to grain free, canned
> and raw foods, the hairballs I used to clean up all the time
> diminished from common to rare.
>
> Digestive health: Putting grains in the digestive tract of a carnivore
> is a recipe for disaster. See Laura M.'s experiences with Hobbes on
> this newsgroup. Cats are not properly able to utilize grains in their
> diet (carnivore= short digestive tract+ limited amylase=undigested
> grains=large stools.) Garbage in. garbage out. *This is why we see IBD
> and other intestinal isues with dry food doets. If you frequent the
> IBD list, you'll find that most people have resolved or managed their
> cats issues by feeding a raw or canned, grain free diet i.e food
> appropriate for a *carnivore.*
>
> Obesity: Free feeding is the #1 reason we have an epidemic of
> overweight cats in this country. In the wild, cats are opportunistic
> eaters and may eat only once a day depending on what prey they can
> catch. Feeding scheduled meals is a lot closer to how they would eat
> in nature than is allowing them to graze every few hours all day long.
> A food with a high-grain (carbohydrate) content also contributes to
> the epidemic of diabetes as well. See these sites (both written by
> veterinarians) for more info:http://www.catnutrition.org/diabetes.php
> andhttp://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/
>
> Also pay attention to this:
>
> Sustained Hyperglycemia and Hyperlipidemia in Cats: Contribution of
> Inflammation and Beta-Cell Loss to the Pathophysiology of Diabetes
> E. Zini1; M. Osto2; M. Franchini3; F. Guscetti4; M. Donath5; A.
> Perren6; P. Linscheid1; M. Bouwman7; M. Ackermann3; T.A. Lutz2; C.E.
> Reusch1
> 1Clinic for Small Animal Internal Medicine; 2Inst. of Vet. Physiol.;
> 3Inst. of Virol.; 4Inst. of Vet. Pathol., Vetsuisse Faculty,
> University of Zurich, Switzerland; 5Clinic for Endocrinol and
> Diabetes, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland; 6Dept. of Pathol.,
> Technical University of Munchen, Germany; 7Dept. of Clinical Sciences
> of Companion Animals, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
>
> Feline diabetes shares many similarities to human type 2 diabetes
> mellitus (T2DM), including islet amyloidosis and -cell loss. Based on
> cultured rodent and human islet cells, it has been demonstrated that
> hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia in T2DM have a negative effect on -
> cell viability. Exposure to high glucose or lipid levels induces
> interleukin expression in cultured pancreatic islets, followed by Fas
> receptor up-regulation and apoptosis of -cells. In addition, high
> glucose levels upregulate islet chemokines and attract neutrophils and
> macrophages. Inflammatory cells may contribute to pancreatic-islet
> cell death in T2DM. The objective of this study was to investigate the
> above findings in vivo in cats.
>
> Eleven healthy cats were infused for 10 days with glucose (n=5) or
> lipids (n=6) to target their blood concentrations at the approximate
> level found in untreated feline diabetes (glucose: 450-540 mg/dl;
> triglycerides: 265-620 mg/dl). As control groups, 10 healthy cats were
> either infused with saline (n=5) or did not receive infusion (n=5). On
> day 10, blood samples and pancreatic biopsies were collected. Levels
> of 1-acid glycoprotein were measured in plasma samples. Isolated
> pancreatic islets were used to quantify mRNA transcripts of cytokines
> (IL-1, IL-6, TNF-) and chemokines (IL-8, MCP-1) by real-time PCR. In
> addition, mRNA transcripts of Fas receptor were measured. To quantify
> islet neutrophils, pancreatic sections were immunostained with insulin
> and myeloperoxidase. Pancreatic sections stained with amylin or
> insulin was used to quantify -cells in pancreatic islets by
> morphometric analysis. Statistical differences between groups were
> determined with non parametric tests.
>
> Compared to controls, hyperglycemic cats had a 50% reduced number of -
> cells per islet surface and an increased number of neutrophils
> relative to -cells. More apoptotic cells were noted in the pancreatic
> islets by light microscopy. In hyperlipidemic cats the number of -
> cells and neutrophils did not differ from control cats. Plasma levels
> of 1-acid glycoprotein were increased in cats on glucose and lipid
> infusion. Islet quantities of cytokine, chemokines and Fas receptor
> transcripts were not different between groups.
>
> Sustained hyperglycemia causes -cell loss in pancreatic islets of
> healthy cats, possibly through increased apoptosis. Even though
> hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia are accompanied by a systemic
> inflammatory response, inflammation does not seem to occur in
> pancreatic islets under the present experimental conditions. The
> increased number of neutrophils observed in the pancreatic islets of
> hyperglycemic cats needs to be further explored.
>
> Water: Studies have shown that cats that eat canned food have a much
> higher overall water intake than a cat who eats dry food and has fresh
> water available at all times. The constant state of dehydration that
> results from being fed a dry food diet has been implicated in many cat-
> health issues with kidney problems and urinary-tract issues being at
> the top of the list. Educated veterinarians are increasingly
> recommending canned food (including, I've been told, most of the board-
> certified feline veterinarian consultants on the Veterinary
> Information Network- VIN).
>
> If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
> dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
> Soylent green anyone?

I'd like to second Rene's comments about high quality wet food. I've
battled Hobbes throwing up for literally years. At first it was every
so often. A hairball try I thought. Then, as the years passed, it
grew to a more frequent problem. The vet had no ideas for me at all
when I explained my concerns.

Then, last year he really started having problems. So much so that I
had to have the vet give him repeated enemas. They finally switched
him to a wet food, but after reading the ingredients, it was full of
wheat glutens.

Finally, Hobbes had a pancreatic attack. I almost lost my beloved
cat! The vet STILL had not addressed his food, so I took matters into
my own hand by talking with others here on this newsgroup and other
groups on the net.

Specifically, Rene really helped me a lot. Without her encouragement,
I doubt Hobbes would be with me right now in full health. I've
switched him to the Chicken Wellness wet food and also include a
little warm water mixed in to form a gravy. He loves it! It's been a
few weeks now and his coat is so silky and full! His eyes are clear
and his attitude is playful. He no longer lays around like he used
to, overgrooming himself. Also, he hasn't thrown up once!

Now I make it a habit to brush his teeth at least once a week. I also
use a Q-tip dipped in some mouthwash the vet gave me and rub his back
bottom teeth and gums where I have a hard time reaching with the
brush.

I can't imagine ever feeding him dry food again.

Food for thought. :)

February 4th 09, 04:47 PM
On Feb 4, 8:57*am, "Rene S." > wrote:

> If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
> dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
> Soylent green anyone?

Mpfffff....

Too narrow a point of view, and too little knowledge of the 'good' dry
foods on the market.

From:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2312175_improve-cats-dental-health.html

If you feed only canned food, try to purrsuade your cat to eat a good-
quality dry food. A recent study found that cats fed dry food (as
opposed to canned food) had significantly lower levels of dental
deposits and periodontal disease. If you feed a mixture of canned and
dry, or if your cat is already having some dental problems, you may
want to switch to a dental care formula. Hills, Royal Canin, and
Friskies all make dry foods designed for this purpose, and most large
pet shops carry them. Other, prescription-only dental formulas should
be available from your veterinarian.

From

http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/gingivitis.html

In early 1997, two new products came on the market that are designed
to prevent and control tartar and gingivitis. T/D is a dry food
produced by Hill's that is designed to reduce the rate of plaque and
tartar accumulation. If severe disease is already present then the use
of this food is contraindicated. C.E.T. Chews produced by VRx
Pharmaceuticals is a freeze-dried fish treat that provides abrasive
cleansing action as well as antibacterial enzymes to combat
gingivitis. Both products are available through veterinarians and may
prove to be important tools in preventing chronic gingivitis and
ultimate tooth loss in cats.


As the below is a .pdf, I cannot abstract relevant parts:

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Health/Dental_Care_Marcia_King_08.pdf

http://www.placervillevet.com/feline%20dental%20care.htm

And on and on, from the '90s through 2008.

Healthy, happy cats that get enough exercise just don't get fat. In my
57 years of keeping cats, we have never had a fat one, never had one
with diabetes (oldest made 22 and died of cancer), never had one with
any dietary-related disease of any sort. Most were spayed or neutered,
all of them in the last 35 years anyway, most of them towards the end
of their first year of age to enhance physical maturity to the
greatest extent practical. I have kept cats in NYC Apartments and in
villas in Saudi Arabia, and in what is arguably the world's most
prestigious business school.

http://www.petco.com/product/9044/Hill-s-Science-Diet-Oral-Care-Adult-Cat-Food.aspx

http://www.entirelypets.com/cetchewforca.html

Yes, cats are carnivores in their natural state. And they are NOT
carrion eaters in their natural state. So, we have already wrong-
footed them by feeding them cold, dead things vs. letting them hunt
live prey. In point of fact, we are changing their entire habit, diet,
and natural behavior by keeping them as kittens their entire lives and
rewarding kitten behavior while discouraging adult-cat behavior -
which would be to sleep from 18-22 hours per day, and be active mostly
at dawn and dusk. Territorial males would defecate on high ground to
mark it and both males and females would scent-mark. Not exactly what
we want living with us. Nor would any cat 'brush its teeth' in its
natural state. Nor can we feed them prey skin, prey hair and prey
bones in their unprocessed state - so we need to replace that function
with something else - roughage. Green, sweet _FRESH_ stuff is best and
very easy to do - popcorn. Gizzards are fine as are raw wings 'cept
that salmonella is present in somewhere between 10% and 40% of
domestic flocks - as it happens more so in 'free-range' flocks due to
greater exposure to environmental sources.

http://www.cat-world.com.au/SalmonellosisInCats.htm

And ground bone just doesn't cut it for the purpose under discussion.

Point being that we have to replace all the things we take away when
we domesticate and kittenize a top-of-the-food-chain carnivore. It
ain't nohow easy, and it is quite uncomfortable both to recognize and
address those issues directly.

So, as we cannot provide them any level whatsoever of a 'natural'
environment stocked with natural prey - other than by letting them go
outside which is an entirely different discussion - and then remain
intact which is yet another one - we create a polite mythology around
what is 'natural' for them. Their potential is already limited and
their environment even more so.

Feeding a cat good food isn't cheap, requires some thought and
attention, and most certainly requires considerable myth-busting. You
will note that I have always referred to 'well designed' foods, I have
often railed against 'corn gluten meal' being fed to a carnivore - but
the brute fact of the matter is that unless we provide actual prey for
our animals, we are left with what is provided by others.

There are those who get the bit in their teeth and just PULL. Add
blinders and you have a good plow horse. There are those who get hold
of a single bit of information, leavened with a good deal of anecdote
and just build and build on it. That is how myths are born.

As to arguing-from-authority, we use Rau Animal Hospital in Glenside,
PA. Dentistry is high on their agenda, they give clinics on home care
and so forth. Their vets strongly suggest a mixture of wet and dry
food for both cats and dogs to help with dental health. They also
strongly advise using 'properly designed' foods for that purpose, not
just the cheapest crap from WalMart. Nor are they hide-bound
conservatives rooted in the distant past - just look over their list
of services and you will see a few surprises.

http://www.rauanimalhospital.com/site/view/103387_Services.pml

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

DWMeowMix
February 5th 09, 12:03 AM
On Feb 4, 9:47*am, " > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 8:57*am, "Rene S." > wrote:
>
> > If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
> > dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
> > Soylent green anyone?
>
> Mpfffff....
>
> Too narrow a point of view, and too little knowledge of the 'good' dry
> foods on the market.
>
> From:
>
> http://www.ehow.com/how_2312175_improve-cats-dental-health.html
>
> If you feed only canned food, try to purrsuade your cat to eat a good-
> quality dry food. A recent study found that cats fed dry food (as
> opposed to canned food) had significantly lower levels of dental
> deposits and periodontal disease. If you feed a mixture of canned and
> dry, or if your cat is already having some dental problems, you may
> want to switch to a dental care formula. Hills, Royal Canin, and
> Friskies all make dry foods designed for this purpose, and most large
> pet shops carry them. Other, prescription-only dental formulas should
> be available from your veterinarian.
>
> From
>
> http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/gingivitis.html
>
> In early 1997, two new products came on the market that are designed
> to prevent and control tartar and gingivitis. T/D is a dry food
> produced by Hill's that is designed to reduce the rate of plaque and
> tartar accumulation. If severe disease is already present then the use
> of this food is contraindicated. C.E.T. Chews produced by VRx
> Pharmaceuticals is a freeze-dried fish treat that provides abrasive
> cleansing action as well as antibacterial enzymes to combat
> gingivitis. Both products are available through veterinarians and may
> prove to be important tools in preventing chronic gingivitis and
> ultimate tooth loss in cats.
>
> As the below is a .pdf, I cannot abstract relevant parts:
>
> http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Health/Dental_Care_Marcia_King_08.pdf
>
> http://www.placervillevet.com/feline%20dental%20care.htm
>
> And on and on, from the '90s through 2008.
>
> Healthy, happy cats that get enough exercise just don't get fat. In my
> 57 years of keeping cats, we have never had a fat one, never had one
> with diabetes (oldest made 22 and died of cancer), never had one with
> any dietary-related disease of any sort. Most were spayed or neutered,
> all of them in the last 35 years anyway, most of them towards the end
> of their first year of age to enhance physical maturity to the
> greatest extent practical. I have kept cats in NYC Apartments and in
> villas in Saudi Arabia, and in what is arguably the world's most
> prestigious business school.
>
> http://www.petco.com/product/9044/Hill-s-Science-Diet-Oral-Care-Adult...
>
> http://www.entirelypets.com/cetchewforca.html
>
> Yes, cats are carnivores in their natural state. And they are NOT
> carrion eaters in their natural state. So, we have already wrong-
> footed them by feeding them cold, dead things vs. letting them hunt
> live prey. In point of fact, we are changing their entire habit, diet,
> and natural behavior by keeping them as kittens their entire lives and
> rewarding kitten behavior while discouraging adult-cat behavior -
> which would be to sleep from 18-22 hours per day, and be active mostly
> at dawn and dusk. Territorial males would defecate on high ground to
> mark it and both males and females would scent-mark. Not exactly what
> we want living with us. Nor would any cat 'brush its teeth' in its
> natural state. Nor can we feed them prey skin, prey hair and prey
> bones in their unprocessed state - so we need to replace that function
> with something else - roughage. Green, sweet _FRESH_ stuff is best and
> very easy to do - popcorn. Gizzards are fine as are raw wings 'cept
> that salmonella is present in somewhere between 10% and 40% of
> domestic flocks - as it happens more so in 'free-range' flocks due to
> greater exposure to environmental sources.
>
> http://www.cat-world.com.au/SalmonellosisInCats.htm
>
> And ground bone just doesn't cut it for the purpose under discussion.
>
> Point being that we have to replace all the things we take away when
> we domesticate and kittenize a top-of-the-food-chain carnivore. It
> ain't nohow easy, and it is quite uncomfortable both to recognize and
> address those issues directly.
>
> So, as we cannot provide them any level whatsoever of a 'natural'
> environment stocked with natural prey - other than by letting them go
> outside which is an entirely different discussion - and then remain
> intact which is yet another one - we create a polite mythology around
> what is 'natural' for them. Their potential is already limited and
> their environment even more so.
>
> Feeding a cat good food isn't cheap, requires some thought and
> attention, and most certainly requires considerable myth-busting. You
> will note that I have always referred to 'well designed' foods, I have
> often railed against 'corn gluten meal' being fed to a carnivore - but
> the brute fact of the matter is that unless we provide actual prey for
> our animals, we are left with what is provided by others.
>
> There are those who get the bit in their teeth and just PULL. Add
> blinders and you have a good plow horse. There are those who get hold
> of a single bit of information, leavened with a good deal of anecdote
> and just build and build on it. That is how myths are born.
>
> As to arguing-from-authority, we use Rau Animal Hospital in Glenside,
> PA. Dentistry is high on their agenda, they give clinics on home care
> and so forth. Their vets strongly suggest a mixture of wet and dry
> food for both cats and dogs to help with dental health. They also
> strongly advise using 'properly designed' foods for that purpose, not
> just the cheapest crap from WalMart. Nor are they hide-bound
> conservatives rooted in the distant past - just look over their list
> of services and you will see a few surprises.
>
> http://www.rauanimalhospital.com/site/view/103387_Services.pml
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

Sorry Peter, I alot of these areas I would agree with you but I just
can't on the issue of feeding kibble no matter how fancy the packaging
or price tag.

These are an option for dental health. If dental health is the only
thing you're interested in and not the health of the whole animal.
Kibble is made of corn, corn is a carbohydrate. Cats do not need
carbohydrates, although corn is used as a filler for both dry and
canned food. It causes extreme obesity, UTI's, diabetes and a host
of other problems. Cats are strict obligate carnivores meaning:

"It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her
nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-
based proteins (meat) and derives much less nutritional support from
plant-based proteins (grains). It means that cats lack specific
metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as
efficiently as animal proteins. " http://www.catinfo.org/

Please keep feeding kitty a high quality wet food at the very
least!!! Also if you supplement feeding with chicken legs (chunks w/
bone-in) and/or gizzards (whole) are a wonderful way to make kitty
chew and keep his teeth clean without resorting to nasty kibble.

I'm out of time right now, so I'll have to chime in later with some
suggestions on the other issues (if I have any! :-) )

Debbie

DWMeowMix
February 5th 09, 12:04 AM
On Feb 4, 5:03*pm, DWMeowMix > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 9:47*am, " > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 4, 8:57*am, "Rene S." > wrote:
>
> > > If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
> > > dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
> > > Soylent green anyone?
>
> > Mpfffff....
>
> > Too narrow a point of view, and too little knowledge of the 'good' dry
> > foods on the market.
>
> > From:
>
> >http://www.ehow.com/how_2312175_improve-cats-dental-health.html
>
> > If you feed only canned food, try to purrsuade your cat to eat a good-
> > quality dry food. A recent study found that cats fed dry food (as
> > opposed to canned food) had significantly lower levels of dental
> > deposits and periodontal disease. If you feed a mixture of canned and
> > dry, or if your cat is already having some dental problems, you may
> > want to switch to a dental care formula. Hills, Royal Canin, and
> > Friskies all make dry foods designed for this purpose, and most large
> > pet shops carry them. Other, prescription-only dental formulas should
> > be available from your veterinarian.
>
> > From
>
> >http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/gingivitis.html
>
> > In early 1997, two new products came on the market that are designed
> > to prevent and control tartar and gingivitis. T/D is a dry food
> > produced by Hill's that is designed to reduce the rate of plaque and
> > tartar accumulation. If severe disease is already present then the use
> > of this food is contraindicated. C.E.T. Chews produced by VRx
> > Pharmaceuticals is a freeze-dried fish treat that provides abrasive
> > cleansing action as well as antibacterial enzymes to combat
> > gingivitis. Both products are available through veterinarians and may
> > prove to be important tools in preventing chronic gingivitis and
> > ultimate tooth loss in cats.
>
> > As the below is a .pdf, I cannot abstract relevant parts:
>
> >http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Health/Dental_Care_Marcia_King_08.pdf
>
> >http://www.placervillevet.com/feline%20dental%20care.htm
>
> > And on and on, from the '90s through 2008.
>
> > Healthy, happy cats that get enough exercise just don't get fat. In my
> > 57 years of keeping cats, we have never had a fat one, never had one
> > with diabetes (oldest made 22 and died of cancer), never had one with
> > any dietary-related disease of any sort. Most were spayed or neutered,
> > all of them in the last 35 years anyway, most of them towards the end
> > of their first year of age to enhance physical maturity to the
> > greatest extent practical. I have kept cats in NYC Apartments and in
> > villas in Saudi Arabia, and in what is arguably the world's most
> > prestigious business school.
>
> >http://www.petco.com/product/9044/Hill-s-Science-Diet-Oral-Care-Adult...
>
> >http://www.entirelypets.com/cetchewforca.html
>
> > Yes, cats are carnivores in their natural state. And they are NOT
> > carrion eaters in their natural state. So, we have already wrong-
> > footed them by feeding them cold, dead things vs. letting them hunt
> > live prey. In point of fact, we are changing their entire habit, diet,
> > and natural behavior by keeping them as kittens their entire lives and
> > rewarding kitten behavior while discouraging adult-cat behavior -
> > which would be to sleep from 18-22 hours per day, and be active mostly
> > at dawn and dusk. Territorial males would defecate on high ground to
> > mark it and both males and females would scent-mark. Not exactly what
> > we want living with us. Nor would any cat 'brush its teeth' in its
> > natural state. Nor can we feed them prey skin, prey hair and prey
> > bones in their unprocessed state - so we need to replace that function
> > with something else - roughage. Green, sweet _FRESH_ stuff is best and
> > very easy to do - popcorn. Gizzards are fine as are raw wings 'cept
> > that salmonella is present in somewhere between 10% and 40% of
> > domestic flocks - as it happens more so in 'free-range' flocks due to
> > greater exposure to environmental sources.
>
> >http://www.cat-world.com.au/SalmonellosisInCats.htm
>
> > And ground bone just doesn't cut it for the purpose under discussion.
>
> > Point being that we have to replace all the things we take away when
> > we domesticate and kittenize a top-of-the-food-chain carnivore. It
> > ain't nohow easy, and it is quite uncomfortable both to recognize and
> > address those issues directly.
>
> > So, as we cannot provide them any level whatsoever of a 'natural'
> > environment stocked with natural prey - other than by letting them go
> > outside which is an entirely different discussion - and then remain
> > intact which is yet another one - we create a polite mythology around
> > what is 'natural' for them. Their potential is already limited and
> > their environment even more so.
>
> > Feeding a cat good food isn't cheap, requires some thought and
> > attention, and most certainly requires considerable myth-busting. You
> > will note that I have always referred to 'well designed' foods, I have
> > often railed against 'corn gluten meal' being fed to a carnivore - but
> > the brute fact of the matter is that unless we provide actual prey for
> > our animals, we are left with what is provided by others.
>
> > There are those who get the bit in their teeth and just PULL. Add
> > blinders and you have a good plow horse. There are those who get hold
> > of a single bit of information, leavened with a good deal of anecdote
> > and just build and build on it. That is how myths are born.
>
> > As to arguing-from-authority, we use Rau Animal Hospital in Glenside,
> > PA. Dentistry is high on their agenda, they give clinics on home care
> > and so forth. Their vets strongly suggest a mixture of wet and dry
> > food for both cats and dogs to help with dental health. They also
> > strongly advise using 'properly designed' foods for that purpose, not
> > just the cheapest crap from WalMart. Nor are they hide-bound
> > conservatives rooted in the distant past - just look over their list
> > of services and you will see a few surprises.
>
> >http://www.rauanimalhospital.com/site/view/103387_Services.pml
>
> > Peter Wieck
> > Melrose Park, PA
>
> Sorry Peter, I alot of these areas I would agree with you but I just
> can't on the issue of feeding kibble no matter how fancy the packaging
> or price tag.
>
> These are an option for dental health. *If dental health is the only
> thing you're interested in and not the health of the whole animal.
> Kibble is made of corn, corn is a carbohydrate. *Cats do not need
> carbohydrates, although corn is used as a filler for both dry and
> canned food. *It causes extreme obesity, UTI's, *diabetes *and a host
> of other problems. *Cats are strict obligate carnivores meaning:
>
> "It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her
> nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-
> based proteins (meat) and derives much less nutritional support from
> plant-based proteins (grains). It means that cats lack specific
> metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as
> efficiently as animal proteins. " *http://www.catinfo.org/
>
> Please keep feeding kitty a high quality wet food at the very
> least!!! *Also if you supplement feeding with chicken legs (chunks w/
> bone-in) and/or gizzards (whole) are a wonderful way to make kitty
> chew and keep his teeth clean without resorting to nasty kibble.
>
> I'm out of time right now, so I'll have to chime in later with some
> suggestions on the other issues (if I have any! *:-) * )
>
> Debbie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oh those are raw BTW!!!

Debbie

missToni
February 5th 09, 12:23 AM
> Just one question - what was he like prior to this change? Do you have
> any good, honest information on this?


From the friend's ex-wife, who suddenly developed the allergies, I got
"he can be very stubborn". No real explanation about what that
means! My friend told me (after the fact), that he had pooped on the
bed before, in response to not being allowed outside during bad
weather (we live in Canada, there's lots of that!) Then he sort of
brushed off the biting issue, to wit "I guess I simply got used to his
'eccentricities', such as the occasional bite". What really ****es me
off is this was not supposed to be a permanent arrangement, merely a
caretaking one while a permanent home was located. Now I'm stuck
because I can't pawn a problem cat off on someone else without full
disclosure!

> Some cats, especially 'only' cats do not do well with a change in
> environment that also includes a change in people and a change in
> 'privileges' such as going from an indoor/outdoor to indoor only.
> Funnily enough, cats from multiple-pet households do much better under
> stressful changes, especially if one-or-another of their companions
> also make the change, or their people also come along.

Funny. He came from a house with a rambunctious dog, so I figured my
house might be too quiet, as he is now an only cat, and I'm an only
owner (except when my mum was visiting from Florida). Maybe that IS
the problem, he needs more action. I'm not getting another cat to try
it out, though. All my cats seem to be rescue cats...just once I'd
love to get a kitten!

Wayne Mitchell
February 5th 09, 01:44 AM
"Rene S." > wrote:

>What you're
>failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
>Period. This is not negotiable.

That's fact number one.

Fact number two: Many millions of pet cats over the last 50 years have
lived long and healthy lives on diets which include a surprising amount
of grains. This fact is just as inarguable as fact number one.

If one's theory of cat nutrition, starting from fact number one, cannot
accommodate fact number two, then one would actually be better off not
knowing fact number one.
--

Wayne M.

cybercat
February 5th 09, 04:17 AM
"Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
...
> "Rene S." > wrote:
>
>>What you're
>>failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
>>Period. This is not negotiable.
>
> That's fact number one.
>
> Fact number two: Many millions of pet cats over the last 50 years have
> lived long and healthy lives on diets which include a surprising amount
> of grains. This fact is just as inarguable as fact number one.
>
> If one's theory of cat nutrition, starting from fact number one, cannot
> accommodate fact number two, then one would actually be better off not
> knowing fact number one.
> --
>

What you call "fact number 2" is explained by simple luck and genetic
factors. All cats are not that lucky. I did have a cat that ate dry food
only for 15 of her 18 years. If I fed my current cats that way, they would
not have fared that well.

There is no reason to advocate feeding dry, except a nasty need to justify
one's own selfish insistance on keeping things cheap and convenient for
oneself.

joe[_2_]
February 5th 09, 04:39 AM
cybercat wrote:

>
> "Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Rene S." > wrote:
>>
>>>What you're
>>>failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
>>>Period. This is not negotiable.
>>
>> That's fact number one.
>>
>> Fact number two: Many millions of pet cats over the last 50 years
>> have lived long and healthy lives on diets which include a
>> surprising amount
>> of grains. This fact is just as inarguable as fact number one.
>>
>> If one's theory of cat nutrition, starting from fact number one,
>> cannot accommodate fact number two, then one would actually be
>> better off not knowing fact number one.
>> --
>>
>
> What you call "fact number 2" is explained by simple luck and
> genetic factors. All cats are not that lucky. I did have a cat that
> ate dry food only for 15 of her 18 years. If I fed my current cats
> that way, they would not have fared that well.
>
> There is no reason to advocate feeding dry, except a nasty need to
> justify one's own selfish insistance on keeping things cheap and
> convenient for oneself.

One can equally logically argue that cats are not only carnivores, but
predators. It is only from your selfish insistence on keeping things
cheap and convenient for oneself that you do not bother to procure
live animals for your cats to hunt, kill and eat. After all, that is
what they are designed for. It is unjust to deprive them of their
natural feeding process for your selfish convenience by feeding them
dead things when it is their nature to hunt and kill their food.
Cats are not scavengers. Do not feed them as if they are.

This makes as much sense as your argument against dry food.

Wayne Mitchell
February 5th 09, 04:52 AM
"cybercat" > wrote:

>There is no reason to advocate feeding dry, except a nasty need to justify
>one's own selfish insistance on keeping things cheap and convenient for
>oneself.

<grin> Well, if we are to sling insults at each other, I might say that
there is no need to cling slavishly to the unsupported idea that wet is
per se healthier, except a nasty need to feel superior and stroke one's
own ego. But my statement might be as inaccurate as yours.
--

Wayne M.

February 5th 09, 12:28 PM
On Feb 4, 11:39*pm, joe > wrote:

> One can equally logically argue that cats are not only carnivores, but
> predators. *It is only from your selfish insistence on keeping things
> cheap and convenient for oneself that you do not bother to procure
> live animals for your cats to hunt, kill and eat. *After all, that is
> what they are designed for. *It is unjust to deprive them of their
> natural feeding process for your selfish convenience by feeding them
> dead things when it is their nature to hunt and kill their food.
> Cats are not scavengers. *Do not feed them as if they are. *
>
> This makes as much sense as your argument against dry food.

Well..... The same strain of belief on the 'obligate carnivore' line
also appears to believe that cats are NOT predators, ARE carrion
eaters, SHOULD be kept caged if acting out, MUST NEVER go outside and
many other similar and contributory lines of belief - all leading to
the expectation that cats are forever cute kittens and that their
natural state is as a sedate, predictable and well-behaved ego-
enhancer and house-pet. The mother-of-all contradictions-in-terms.

Good cat food is not cheap. Cheap cat food may be 'nutritionally
complete', but is not good. That applies to wet and dry options. And
cats may be maintained using inexpensive but still healthy options as
long as their nutritional requirements are met (taurine, linoleic and
arachidonic acids and so forth).

And, cats are not hardly 'convenient'. But neither do they require
heroic efforts if common sense (which, if the discussions herein are
any indication, isn't) choices are made. Some of these choices are
difficult on their face - and so lead to much of the Human Avoidance
Behavior also often displayed herein.

But at the same time, we are keeping a top-of-the-food-chain predator
in our homes. And *we* are "obligate(d)" to recognize that when we
interact with them.

Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain.
Friedrich Schiller

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

LauraM[_2_]
February 5th 09, 10:23 PM
On Feb 4, 5:44*pm, Wayne Mitchell > wrote:
> *"Rene S." > wrote:
>
> >What you're
> >failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
> >Period. This is not negotiable.
>
> That's fact number one.
>
> Fact number two: *Many millions of pet cats over the last 50 years have
> lived long and healthy lives on diets which include a surprising amount
> of grains. *This fact is just as inarguable as fact number one.
>
> If one's theory of cat nutrition, starting from fact number one, cannot
> accommodate fact number two, then one would actually be better off not
> knowing fact number one.
> --
>
> Wayne M.

Yeah, but a lot of cats, just like people, can't handle the grains.
Even most humans have built up a tolerance to processed grains, but a
lot of them are allergic...like me. It's just in my DNA.

So why risk future problems?

Wayne Mitchell
February 6th 09, 01:48 AM
LauraM > wrote:

>Yeah, but a lot of cats, just like people, can't handle the grains.
>Even most humans have built up a tolerance to processed grains, but a
>lot of them are allergic...like me. It's just in my DNA.

It's politically correct these days to scapegoat grains. But only a
small percentage of cats -- probably less than 5% -- develop food
allergies of *any* kind. And when they do, the offending food is almost
always a protein source -- with fish being the most common, followed by
beef, chicken, dairy, and non-fish seafoods. Allergies to all the
grains combined do not equal any one of those five. So the chances of a
cat developing an allergy to grains are pretty minuscule.
--

Wayne M.

jmc
February 6th 09, 12:01 PM
Suddenly, without warning, missToni exclaimed (2/3/2009 8:30 PM):
>> You dont say if this cat has been spayed and neutered. Has he? If
>> not, he needs to be. You indicate that your friend told you he gets
>> wild when he cant go outside because of the weather. So right away we
>> have 2 potential issues that need research.. "Humping" is a strange
>> word to use. It usually refers to sexual activity. Is that what you
>> mean? Most cats "knead" as though they were making bread when they
>> are getting comfy. That is normal. But "humping" is something that
>> dogs do frequently to the odd leg that comes into their vision if they
>> have nothing else to "hump." If the cat poops on your your bed, then
>> it would be wise to keep the door closed and not let him in the room.- Hide quoted text -
>
>
> Yes, he has been neutered. He'll be sleeping at the foot of the bed,
> then the minute I turn on my back he'll climb up on my chest, then
> position himself so his butt is against my arm or whatever and start
> going at it. I know that look of ecstasy! Plus he has an erection.
> When I shoo him off, he'll go off and lick it. It happens during the
> day too, if I'm stretched out on the sofa. He's not going to be a lap
> cat, that's for sure!

I would suggest a visit to the vet. Mistakes in neutering sometimes
happen, sounds like he still might have some testicular tissue in there.
Dunno if cats can be cryptorcid(sp) - which means a retained testicle
that wasn't removed during gelding/neutering, but if your kitty was a
horse, this is what I'd expect.

If he's completely neutered, then the humping may be a dominance thing.
I've never had a male cat, so I can't really offer advice there.
Gently putting him out of the room as soon as he starts might get
through to him after a while.

I would agree with NOT taking him off wet food - just use a better
quality wet. My cat was on high quality dry for the first 7 years of
her life, and developed cystitis, which took some more years to get
under control. A mix of high quality dry and wet is a good compromise.
Meep's poop was stinky with a good quality dry food, it's much less
stinky with a good quality wet.

I'd also agree with trying Feliway, with a caveot - I've used it, and
sometimes it can be a couple of months before you see a noticible
difference. Suggest getting multiple wall diffusers to cover the whole
house, and a spray to spray his furniture and sleeping places.


Good luck!

jmc

February 6th 09, 12:27 PM
On Feb 5, 8:48*pm, Wayne Mitchell > wrote:

> It's politically correct these days... <Snip>}

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous
mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is
entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"

R.J.Wiedemann.LtCol.USMC Ret.

Just to clarify the concept.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

DWMeowMix
February 6th 09, 04:17 PM
On Feb 5, 5:28 am, " > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 11:39 pm, joe > wrote:



> > This makes as much sense as your argument against dry food.




Oops! Somebody run and tell the people that wrote the Merck Manuel
for Veteriarians that cats are NOT true carnivores!!!!

"The Merck Veterinary Manual (MVM) has served veterinarians and other
animal health professionals as a concise and reliable animal health
reference for over 50 years. The first MVM was published in 1955 and
introduced at the annual meeting of the American Veterinary Medical
Association in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Since its introduction, the MVM
has been eagerly adopted by the veterinary profession as a practical
and comprehensive resource worldwide."
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/present/mvm_about.htm

This issue is specifically addressed in the FIRST paragraph of the
FIRST PAGE of the introduction for nutrition in small animals:

"By comparison, cats show no omnivorous feeding behaviors and require
nutrients that are produced exclusively by other animals and not
plants (eg, vitamin A, arachidonic acid, and taurine). Thus, dogs are
described as omnivores, while cats are regarded as true carnivores."
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182900.htm&word=nutrition%2cfor%2ccats

As well as the issue of feeding carbohydrates to cats:

" In cats, carbohydrates apparently are not essential in the diet when
ample protein and fats supply glucogenic amino acids and glycerol."
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182902.htm

Protein:

"The cat has a higher protein requirement than most species, and
healthy adult cats need ~4 g of protein of high biologic value per kg
body wt/day. The biologic value of a protein is related to the number
and types of essential amino acids it contains and to its
digestibility and metabolizability. The higher the biologic value of a
protein, the less protein needed in the diet to supply the essential
amino acid requirements."
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182902.htm

"Digestibility is less for protein ingredients of poor biologic
value..." (like grains!) http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182902.htm

I think that's a pretty effective argument against dry food.

Debbie

"One could not be a successful scientist without realizing that, a
goodly number of scientists are not only narrow-minded and dull, but
also just stupid." - James D. Watson

DWMeowMix
February 6th 09, 06:10 PM
On Feb 5, 6:48*pm, Wayne Mitchell > wrote:
> *LauraM > wrote:
> >Yeah, but a lot of cats, just like people, can't handle the grains.
> >Even most humans have built up a tolerance to processed grains, but a
> >lot of them are allergic...like me. *It's just in my DNA.
>
> It's politically correct these days to scapegoat grains. *But only a
> small percentage of cats -- probably less than 5% -- develop food
> allergies of *any* kind. *And when they do, the offending food is almost
> always a protein source -- with fish being the most common, followed by
> beef, chicken, dairy, and non-fish seafoods. *Allergies to all the
> grains combined do not equal any one of those five. *So the chances of a
> cat developing an allergy to grains are pretty minuscule.
> --
>
> Wayne M.

And where are your references and cites for making such a sweeping
statement?

Debbie

DWMeowMix
February 6th 09, 06:49 PM
On Feb 6, 11:10*am, DWMeowMix > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 6:48*pm, Wayne Mitchell > wrote:
> > It's politically correct these days to scapegoat grains. *But only a
> > small percentage of cats -- probably less than 5% -- develop food
> > allergies of *any* kind. *And when they do, the offending food is almost
> > always a protein source -- with fish being the most common, followed by
> > beef, chicken, dairy, and non-fish seafoods. *Allergies to all the
> > grains combined do not equal any one of those five. *So the chances of a
> > cat developing an allergy to grains are pretty minuscule.
> > --
>
> > Wayne M.
>
> And where are your references and cites for making such a sweeping
> statement?
>
> Debbie

Here let me help:

"Food allergies account for about 10% of all the allergies seen in
cats and dogs. It is the third most common cause after flea bite
allergies and atopy (inhalant allergies). "
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+1332&aid=142

"Cats often develop "food allergies" or "food intolerances" to
ingredients found in commercial cat food. The top allergens are:
chicken, fish and corn (very common cat food ingredients), beef (often
referred to as "meat by-products" or "meat and bone meal" on pet food
labels), wheat, and dairy products. However, an allergy can develop to
any protein to which the cat is repeatedly or constantly exposed. "
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=foodallergiesincats

"Here are some highlights from the article in CATS Magazine, April
1992, pertaining to cats with allergies.

Cats can suffer from a wide range of allergies. A cat with one allergy
often has others.

15% of all cats in the U.S. suffer from one or more allergies.

*Cats' allergies fall into several categories, each with a parallel
complaint among human allergy sufferers. Inhalant allergies are caused
by airborne articles, such as pollen, that irritate the nasal passages
and lungs. Contact alllergies manifest themselves when the cat has
prolonged contact with a substance that it just cannot tolerate.

*Cats have allergies to foods as well -- not so much to the chemical
preservatives but to the grains, meats and dairy products used. Some
cats react badly to certain drugs, such as antibiotics or anesthesia.

*Flea allergy is the most common of all allergies. As cats age, their
sensitivity to flea bites increases. Prednisone (oral or injection) is
commonly used for a bad reaction.

*Between 5 & 10 percent of allergy cases are caused by food. Like
contact allergies, food allergies will show up as dermatitis and
severe itching but in some cases will also cause vomiting and
diarrhea. Also, the cat may have excessively oily skin, ear
inflammation, or hair loss (which can also be a sign of hormone
imbalance).

*A food allergy doesn't show up overnight. It can take from a week to
10 years of exposure to show itself; more than 80 percent of cats with
food allergies have been eating the allergen-containing food for more
than two years.

http://fanciers.com/cat-faqs/medical-info.shtml
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More on nutrition:


"Please visit the following websites for more information:
http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/
http://www.newsagepress.com/foodpetsdiefor.html
http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php
http://www.catinfo.org/
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

I think that the general public should be informed as to the dangers
of most commercial pet foods. The industry standards for pet food are
seriously lacking, compared to those for the human food industry. You
can't imagine the toxins and waste products that are added to pet
foods.

Something interesting about this subject that others may not know:
If you change to a human-grade organic food such as Wellness, Nature's
Variety, or Innova, to name a few, I guarantee that you will see a
difference is your pets health. http://www.omhpet.com/wellness/cat_index.html
http://www.naturesvariety.com/
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/default.aspx

The so called big name premium pet foods such as Iams, Eukanuba, and
Science Diet are anything but premium. They contain potentially
harmful ingredients and waste products. They are highly recommended by
many veterinarians because the profit margin on them is huge. Most
people never think to question the brands that they constantly see
advertised and marketed to them. "

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/3490-83830/Cat-Food/KC.htm


Sorry if this seems like a bit of a rant. I know first hand just what
good/excellent nutrition will do for your beloved pets and I seriously
cannot stand people advocating sub-standard food. If you wouldn't eat
it, don't feed it to your pets! Do your research on what is REALLY in
most commercial pet foods wet or dry. It will really open your eyes
and make you think.

Debbie

February 6th 09, 07:54 PM
On Feb 6, 11:17*am, DWMeowMix > wrote:

> A great deal of well-meant stuff.

Debbie:

I am not slamming your intent. However, nearly all of your agenda-less
references such as the Merck Manual use words such as "can" and "may".
Not "will" and "must". Delving a bit further, if 10% of all cats
develop some level of food allergy, and if lactose-intolerance is
included, then all other food allergies will be a very small fraction
of that 10%. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that lactose-
intolerance is not included. So, now all grains will be a small
fraction of that 10%.

Delving further, it appears from what is actually written in many of
your agenda-less references is that grains are poorly digested and
poorly utilized by a cat's metabolism. No surprise at all there given
their design and the fact that they do not chew cuds, have gizzards or
other adaptations typical of grain & grass eaters.

As to 'waste products' in animal food (let's not confine that practice
to just cats). The typical American-style western culture does not see
the eating of eyeballs, lights, kidneys, hearts, brains, bones, marrow
and guts as particularly attractive. However all such items are prized
in other cultures. And none of them are particularly unhealthy if
handled and prepared properly. Further to that, cats in their natural
state eat all of the above with their prey in addition to skin, bones
and hair (or pinfeathers - few pinion feathers) (or scales and fins).
So, you really need to define your terms when you refer to 'waste
products'. And cats in the natural state need those 'waste products'
to help them clear themselves of irritants and parasites. Given, of
course that such cats do not have access to de-worming treatments or
hairball remedies. Some things are better for cats who choose to live
with people in what is for them a tiny box. Not many, but some.

Now, let's look at a good-quality, well-designed Wet Food, vs. the
same Dry Food. It is very likely that the ingredient list is nearly
identical except for water content. That a food is dry does not make
it necessarily 100% corn gluten meal. Oh, the dry food will tend to be
somewhat higher in tocopherols (Vitamin E precursors) and ascorbic
acid as they form a useful preservative. And somewhat lower in salts
so as to avoid moisture absorbtion.

You do have the bit firmly in your teeth and much as I could cite any
number of "authorities-with-agenda" that support my position, you can
do so with yours, and you are pulling like a champion. But the brute
fact of the matter is that the very, very, vast majority of well-cared-
for cats fed a good diet of good quality commercial cat foods do just
fine for a complete, uncomplicated, healthy, happy increasingly long
life. And, for the record, those are the cats who typically do not
complain to this group - conspicuous by their absence as it were. What
gets attention here are cats that display a variety of what is
perceived to be pathology, either in health or behavior or owner. Not
the much more typical healthy animal with a well-adjusted owner.

We are inviting top-of-the-food-chain predators into our homes. We
should hope that they remain by choice and not by necessity,
entrapment or force. And we must recognize all aspects of their
nature, not merely those that are convenient for us. What we take away
by neutering them and feeding them carrion we must replace in some
other, equally satisfying, equally stimulating way. It isn't easy. And
very often, we displace our guilt in limiting these powerful and
graceful creatures by all sorts of mythology and misplaced efforts
towards idealizing some tiny aspect of their care so as to avoid the
much bigger picture.

No wonder some cats get so neurotic.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

joe[_2_]
February 6th 09, 08:19 PM
DWMeowMix wrote:

>
>
> On Feb 5, 5:28 am, " > wrote:
>> On Feb 4, 11:39 pm, joe > wrote:
>
>
>
>> > This makes as much sense as your argument against dry food.
>
>
>
>
> Oops! Somebody run and tell the people that wrote the Merck Manuel
> for Veteriarians that cats are NOT true carnivores!!!!
>
> "The Merck Veterinary Manual (MVM) has served veterinarians and
> other animal health professionals as a concise and reliable animal
> health reference for over 50 years. The first MVM was published in
> 1955 and introduced at the annual meeting of the American Veterinary
> Medical Association in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Since its
> introduction, the MVM has been eagerly adopted by the veterinary
> profession as a practical and comprehensive resource worldwide."
>
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/present/mvm_about.htm
>
> This issue is specifically addressed in the FIRST paragraph of the
> FIRST PAGE of the introduction for nutrition in small animals:
>
> "By comparison, cats show no omnivorous feeding behaviors and
> require nutrients that are produced exclusively by other animals and
> not plants (eg, vitamin A, arachidonic acid, and taurine). Thus,
> dogs are described as omnivores, while cats are regarded as true
> carnivores."
>
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182900.htm&word=nutrition%2cfor%2ccats
>
> As well as the issue of feeding carbohydrates to cats:
>
> " In cats, carbohydrates apparently are not essential in the diet
> when ample protein and fats supply glucogenic amino acids and
> glycerol."
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182902.htm
>
> Protein:
>
> "The cat has a higher protein requirement than most species, and
> healthy adult cats need ~4 g of protein of high biologic value per
> kg body wt/day. The biologic value of a protein is related to the
> number and types of essential amino acids it contains and to its
> digestibility and metabolizability. The higher the biologic value of
> a protein, the less protein needed in the diet to supply the
> essential amino acid requirements."
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182902.htm
>
> "Digestibility is less for protein ingredients of poor biologic
> value..." (like grains!)
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182902.htm
>
> I think that's a pretty effective argument against dry food.
>
> Debbie
>
> "One could not be a successful scientist without realizing that, a
> goodly number of scientists are not only narrow-minded and dull, but
> also just stupid." - James D. Watson

I made no statement suggesting that cats were not carnivores. I
suggested that they were predators. The two are not mutually
exclusive you know. Predators often are carnivores. The argument I
presented was in not in support of high-carbohydrate dry food. The
argument I presented was in favor treating your cats the way nature
intended by taking the trouble to give them live feeding using prey
animals. I do not think that prey animals for cats are generally
composed of large amounts of carbohydrates.

DWMeowMix
February 7th 09, 12:27 AM
On Feb 6, 12:54*pm, " > wrote:
> On Feb 6, 11:17*am, DWMeowMix > wrote:
>
> > A great deal of well-meant stuff.
>
> Debbie:
>
> I am not slamming your intent. However, nearly all of your agenda-less
> references such as the Merck Manual use words such as "can" and "may".
> Not "will" and "must". Delving a bit further, if 10% of all cats
> develop some level of food allergy, and if lactose-intolerance is
> included, then all other food allergies will be a very small fraction
> of that 10%. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that lactose-
> intolerance is not included. So, now all grains will be a small
> fraction of that 10%.
>
> Delving further, it appears from what is actually written in many of
> your agenda-less references is that grains are poorly digested and
> poorly utilized by a cat's metabolism. No surprise at all there given
> their design and the fact that they do not chew cuds, have gizzards or
> other adaptations typical of grain & grass eaters.
>
> As to 'waste products' in animal food (let's not confine that practice
> to just cats). The typical American-style western culture does not see
> the eating of eyeballs, lights, kidneys, hearts, brains, bones, marrow
> and guts as particularly attractive. However all such items are prized
> in other cultures. And none of them are particularly unhealthy if
> handled and prepared properly. Further to that, cats in their natural
> state eat all of the above with their prey in addition to skin, bones
> and hair (or pinfeathers - few pinion feathers) (or scales and fins).
> So, you really need to define your terms when you refer to 'waste
> products'. And cats in the natural state need those 'waste products'
> to help them clear themselves of irritants and parasites. Given, of
> course that such cats do not have access to de-worming treatments or
> hairball remedies. Some things are better for cats who choose to live
> with people in what is for them a tiny box. Not many, but some.
>
> Now, let's look at a good-quality, well-designed Wet Food, vs. the
> same Dry Food. It is very likely that the ingredient list is nearly
> identical except for water content. That a food is dry does not make
> it necessarily 100% corn gluten meal. Oh, the dry food will tend to be
> somewhat higher in tocopherols (Vitamin E precursors) and ascorbic
> acid as they form a useful preservative. And somewhat lower in salts
> so as to avoid moisture absorbtion.
>
> You do have the bit firmly in your teeth and much as I could cite any
> number of "authorities-with-agenda" that support my position, you can
> do so with yours, and you are pulling like a champion. But the brute
> fact of the matter is that the very, very, vast majority of well-cared-
> for cats fed a good diet of good quality commercial cat foods do just
> fine for a complete, uncomplicated, healthy, happy increasingly long
> life. And, for the record, those are the cats who typically do not
> complain to this group - conspicuous by their absence as it were. What
> gets attention here are cats that display a variety of what is
> perceived to be pathology, either in health or behavior or owner. Not
> the much more typical healthy animal with a well-adjusted owner.
>
> We are inviting top-of-the-food-chain predators into our homes. We
> should hope that they remain by choice and not by necessity,
> entrapment or force. And we must recognize all aspects of their
> nature, not merely those that are convenient for us. What we take away
> by neutering them and feeding them carrion we must replace in some
> other, equally satisfying, equally stimulating way. It isn't easy. And
> very often, we displace our guilt in limiting these powerful and
> graceful creatures by all sorts of mythology and misplaced efforts
> towards idealizing some tiny aspect of their care so as to avoid the
> much bigger picture.
>
> No wonder some cats get so neurotic.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

Agenda less? You obviously can't read very well and all this sage
wisedom coming from some one with (still) no cites or references to
back up their uninformed insinuations. Your doing a whole lot of back
pedaling to what you said in previous threads. Can't make up your
mind? Stick to real estate and cycling and cars and radios...shall I
go on...that only you seem to think that you are an expert in. It
sure isn't cats! Google makes very interesting reading you know. I'd
think about making my own "adjustments" to my neurosis if I were you.
You seem to need to be an expert in everything. Probably don't even
own a cat. I'm done with you. Idiot.

Debbie

February 7th 09, 01:10 AM
On Feb 6, 7:27*pm, DWMeowMix > wrote:
> On Feb 6, 12:54*pm, " > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 6, 11:17*am, DWMeowMix > wrote:
>
> > > A great deal of well-meant stuff.
>
> > Debbie:
>
> > I am not slamming your intent. However, nearly all of your agenda-less
> > references such as the Merck Manual use words such as "can" and "may".
> > Not "will" and "must". Delving a bit further, if 10% of all cats
> > develop some level of food allergy, and if lactose-intolerance is
> > included, then all other food allergies will be a very small fraction
> > of that 10%. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that lactose-
> > intolerance is not included. So, now all grains will be a small
> > fraction of that 10%.
>
> > Delving further, it appears from what is actually written in many of
> > your agenda-less references is that grains are poorly digested and
> > poorly utilized by a cat's metabolism. No surprise at all there given
> > their design and the fact that they do not chew cuds, have gizzards or
> > other adaptations typical of grain & grass eaters.
>
> > As to 'waste products' in animal food (let's not confine that practice
> > to just cats). The typical American-style western culture does not see
> > the eating of eyeballs, lights, kidneys, hearts, brains, bones, marrow
> > and guts as particularly attractive. However all such items are prized
> > in other cultures. And none of them are particularly unhealthy if
> > handled and prepared properly. Further to that, cats in their natural
> > state eat all of the above with their prey in addition to skin, bones
> > and hair (or pinfeathers - few pinion feathers) (or scales and fins).
> > So, you really need to define your terms when you refer to 'waste
> > products'. And cats in the natural state need those 'waste products'
> > to help them clear themselves of irritants and parasites. Given, of
> > course that such cats do not have access to de-worming treatments or
> > hairball remedies. Some things are better for cats who choose to live
> > with people in what is for them a tiny box. Not many, but some.
>
> > Now, let's look at a good-quality, well-designed Wet Food, vs. the
> > same Dry Food. It is very likely that the ingredient list is nearly
> > identical except for water content. That a food is dry does not make
> > it necessarily 100% corn gluten meal. Oh, the dry food will tend to be
> > somewhat higher in tocopherols (Vitamin E precursors) and ascorbic
> > acid as they form a useful preservative. And somewhat lower in salts
> > so as to avoid moisture absorbtion.
>
> > You do have the bit firmly in your teeth and much as I could cite any
> > number of "authorities-with-agenda" that support my position, you can
> > do so with yours, and you are pulling like a champion. But the brute
> > fact of the matter is that the very, very, vast majority of well-cared-
> > for cats fed a good diet of good quality commercial cat foods do just
> > fine for a complete, uncomplicated, healthy, happy increasingly long
> > life. And, for the record, those are the cats who typically do not
> > complain to this group - conspicuous by their absence as it were. What
> > gets attention here are cats that display a variety of what is
> > perceived to be pathology, either in health or behavior or owner. Not
> > the much more typical healthy animal with a well-adjusted owner.
>
> > We are inviting top-of-the-food-chain predators into our homes. We
> > should hope that they remain by choice and not by necessity,
> > entrapment or force. And we must recognize all aspects of their
> > nature, not merely those that are convenient for us. What we take away
> > by neutering them and feeding them carrion we must replace in some
> > other, equally satisfying, equally stimulating way. It isn't easy. And
> > very often, we displace our guilt in limiting these powerful and
> > graceful creatures by all sorts of mythology and misplaced efforts
> > towards idealizing some tiny aspect of their care so as to avoid the
> > much bigger picture.
>
> > No wonder some cats get so neurotic.
>
> > Peter Wieck
> > Melrose Park, PA
>
> Agenda less? *You obviously can't read very well and all this sage
> wisedom coming from some one with (still) no cites or references to
> back up their uninformed insinuations. *Your doing a whole lot of back
> pedaling to what you said in previous threads. *Can't make up your
> mind? *Stick to real estate and cycling and cars and radios...shall I
> go on...that only you seem to think that you are an expert in. *It
> sure isn't cats! *Google makes very interesting reading you know. *I'd
> think about making my own "adjustments" to my neurosis if I were you.
> You seem to need to be an expert in everything. *Probably don't even
> own a cat. *I'm done with you. *Idiot.
>
> Debbie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

As you say. But you do have an axe to grind, clearly. And it surely
distorts your efforts. No backpedaling as you do seem to believe your
spew - the mark of an honest if completely deluded individual.

At least I am recognizing that you try.

Boswell and Howie would entirely agree that I do not own any cats.
They are honored guests, with me by choice. And they have followed me
more than half-way around the world. Are you able to claim the same?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Wayne Mitchell
February 7th 09, 01:44 AM
DWMeowMix > wrote:

>I think that's a pretty effective argument against dry food.

No, it's not. It discusses some reasons why we might expect cats on
primarily wet diets to live longer and healthier lives than cats on
primarily dry diets. But since cats on primarily wet diets *don't* live
longer and healthier lives than cats on primarily dry diets -- it's just
empty verbiage.
--

Wayne M.

Wayne Mitchell
February 7th 09, 06:45 AM
DWMeowMix > wrote:

> Wayne Mitchell > wrote:
>> It's politically correct these days to scapegoat grains. *But only a
>> small percentage of cats -- probably less than 5% -- develop food
>> allergies of *any* kind. *And when they do, the offending food is almost
>> always a protein source -- with fish being the most common, followed by
>> beef, chicken, dairy, and non-fish seafoods. *Allergies to all the
>> grains combined do not equal any one of those five. *So the chances of a
>> cat developing an allergy to grains are pretty minuscule.

>And where are your references and cites for making such a sweeping
>statement?

I don't have cites to hand, because this is all stuff I've gleaned over
the years, not recent research. I don't have time to do a lot of
searching on the web right now so I'll just find a couple:

For the prevalence of food allergies in cats, combine this one:
http://www.fanciers.com/cat-faqs/medical-info.html
"15% of all cats in the U.S. suffer from one or more allergies."
with this one:
http://www.petshealth.com/dr_library/fooddogs.html
"Food allergies account for only about 5 to 10 percent of all allergic
reactions in dogs and cats."
and you get 1.5%. I think that is probably low, but I'm fairly
confident of the "less than 5%" figure.


For the chief culprits in feline food allergies:
http://www.petplace.com/cats/food-allergy-in-cats/page1.aspx
"Food ingredients most commonly responsible for allergies are beef,
chicken, fish, eggs and milk."

For the grains combined being less than any one of the top five, I can't
find anything quickly.
--

Wayne M.

Stan Brown
February 7th 09, 11:31 PM
Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:19:58 -0600 from joe >:
> Predators often are carnivores.

One might go so far as to say "usually". :-)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...