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Eddy[_2_]
April 12th 09, 01:39 PM
I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is over,
but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?

One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.

One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
inhibiting fluid.

The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet advised
us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
still is a great concern.

So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a quarter
in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
moisture from the rest of his body.

Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
water into him via the feeding route.

Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
else we can do?

Thanks.

Eddy.

MaryL
April 12th 09, 02:33 PM
"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
>I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is over,
> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>
> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>
> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
> becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
> thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
> inhibiting fluid.
>
> The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
> with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
> unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet advised
> us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
> every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
> situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
> pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
> HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
> moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
> noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
> happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
> still is a great concern.
>
> So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a quarter
> in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
> seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
> buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
> moisture from the rest of his body.
>
> Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
> water into him via the feeding route.
>
> Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
> else we can do?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Eddy.
>

Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become, so
I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is important
to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this problem, or
something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give Ringer's lactate
(which can also be administered at home, if it needs to be an ongoing
thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your statement that you
can't get more water into him via the feeding route. First, you could
increase the water in his canned food somewhat by adding a small amount of
warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort of "slurry." Some cats will
reject it, but it's worth trying. Make sure it is a premium quality canned
food *without* grains. Second (although this does not involve his food),
some cats will drink more if the water is moving. Have you tried one of the
pet "fountains" that are used for this purpose?

Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.

MaryL

jmc
April 12th 09, 03:30 PM
Suddenly, without warning, MaryL exclaimed (4/12/2009 9:33 AM):
>
> "Eddy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is over,
>> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>>
>> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
>> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
>> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
>> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
>> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>>
>> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
>> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
>> becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
>> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
>> thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
>> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
>> inhibiting fluid.
>>
>> The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
>> with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
>> unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet advised
>> us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
>> every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
>> situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
>> pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
>> HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
>> moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
>> noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
>> happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
>> still is a great concern.
>>
>> So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a quarter
>> in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
>> seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
>> buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
>> moisture from the rest of his body.
>>
>> Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
>> water into him via the feeding route.
>>
>> Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
>> else we can do?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Eddy.
>>
>
> Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become,
> so I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is
> important to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this
> problem, or something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give
> Ringer's lactate (which can also be administered at home, if it needs to
> be an ongoing thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your
> statement that you can't get more water into him via the feeding route.
> First, you could increase the water in his canned food somewhat by
> adding a small amount of warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort
> of "slurry." Some cats will reject it, but it's worth trying. Make
> sure it is a premium quality canned food *without* grains. Second
> (although this does not involve his food), some cats will drink more if
> the water is moving. Have you tried one of the pet "fountains" that are
> used for this purpose?
>
> Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.
>
> MaryL


Don't have to make a slurry if he won't accept it (mine won't). Just
pour a spoonful or three over the chunks - they'll soak up water from
the bottom. If they start looking dry on top, just flip 'em over. This
works very well for my cat.

Second the "moving water" idea. Also the liquid from tuna in water, or
salmon, is usually considered a treat, and you can probably add a little
extra to help him out.

There are lots of tricks of the trade to cause a cat to drink more water
- I've tried many of them, since my cat has cystitis and we had some
issues figuring this one out.

jmc

dejablues[_4_]
April 13th 09, 01:15 AM
"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
>I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is over,
> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>
> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>
> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
> becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
> thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
> inhibiting fluid.

You are misinformed. Diuretics like furosemide do not draw fluids out of
bodily tissues. They are designed to reduce the load on the heart act by
blocking the absorption of sodium, chloride, and water from the filtered
fluid in the kidney tubules, causing an increase in the output of urine
(diuresis). A cat in heart failure has excess fluid buildup, this is what is
excreted via the administration of diuretics. There is no "moisture" being
"drawn from" anywhere.

Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy is a serious uncurable disease, and I'm sorry to
say this, but you'd better end your cat's suffering sooner rather than
later.

sudee
April 13th 09, 05:05 AM
On Apr 12, 7:30*am, jmc > wrote:
> Suddenly, without warning, MaryL exclaimed (4/12/2009 9:33 AM):
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Eddy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is over,
> >> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>
> >> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
> >> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". *(The heart
> >> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
> >> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) * *It has been a touch-and-go
> >> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>
> >> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
> >> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
> >> becomes difficult. * To combat this particular effect the cat is now
> >> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
> >> thoracentesis). *Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
> >> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
> >> inhibiting fluid.
>
> >> The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
> >> with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). * But,
> >> unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. *So the vet advised
> >> us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
> >> every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. *This has corrected the
> >> situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
> >> pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
> >> HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
> >> moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
> >> noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. *This has
> >> happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
> >> still is a great concern.
>
> >> So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a quarter
> >> in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. *It remains to be
> >> seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
> >> buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
> >> moisture from the rest of his body.
>
> >> Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
> >> water into him via the feeding route.
>
> >> Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? * Is there anything
> >> else we can do?
>
> >> Thanks.
>
> >> Eddy.
>
> > Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become,
> > so I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. *It is
> > important to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this
> > problem, or something else. *If it is fluid, your vet may want to give
> > Ringer's lactate (which can also be administered at home, if it needs to
> > be an ongoing thing). *However, I did have two thoughts concerning your
> > statement that you can't get more water into him via the feeding route. *
> > First, you could increase the water in his canned food somewhat by
> > adding a small amount of warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort
> > of "slurry." *Some cats will reject it, but it's worth trying. *Make
> > sure it is a premium quality canned food *without* grains. *Second
> > (although this does not involve his food), some cats will drink more if
> > the water is moving. *Have you tried one of the pet "fountains" that are
> > used for this purpose?
>
> > Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.
>
> > MaryL
>
> Don't have to make a slurry if he won't accept it (mine won't). *Just
> pour a spoonful or three over the chunks - they'll soak up water from
> the bottom. *If they start looking dry on top, just flip 'em over. *This
> works very well for my cat.
>
> Second the "moving water" idea. *Also the liquid from tuna in water, or
> salmon, is usually considered a treat, and you can probably add a little
> extra to help him out.
>
> There are lots of tricks of the trade to cause a cat to drink more water
> - I've tried many of them, since my cat has cystitis and we had some
> issues figuring this one out.
>
> jmc

Fresh filtered or distilled water only also, my kids love to have ice
cubes added which helps them "see" the water and gets them drinking
lots. Cats love cold water.

Sue M

Matthew[_3_]
April 13th 09, 05:11 AM
"sudee" > wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 7:30 am, jmc > wrote:
> Suddenly, without warning, MaryL exclaimed (4/12/2009 9:33 AM):
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Eddy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is
> >> over,
> >> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>
> >> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been
> >> found
> >> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
> >> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
> >> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
> >> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>
> >> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
> >> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
> >> becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
> >> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
> >> thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
> >> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
> >> inhibiting fluid.
>
> >> The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
> >> with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
> >> unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet advised
> >> us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
> >> every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
> >> situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
> >> pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
> >> HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
> >> moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
> >> noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
> >> happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
> >> still is a great concern.
>
> >> So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a
> >> quarter
> >> in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
> >> seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
> >> buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
> >> moisture from the rest of his body.
>
> >> Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
> >> water into him via the feeding route.
>
> >> Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
> >> else we can do?
>
> >> Thanks.
>
> >> Eddy.
>
> > Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become,
> > so I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is
> > important to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this
> > problem, or something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give
> > Ringer's lactate (which can also be administered at home, if it needs to
> > be an ongoing thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your
> > statement that you can't get more water into him via the feeding route.
> > First, you could increase the water in his canned food somewhat by
> > adding a small amount of warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort
> > of "slurry." Some cats will reject it, but it's worth trying. Make
> > sure it is a premium quality canned food *without* grains. Second
> > (although this does not involve his food), some cats will drink more if
> > the water is moving. Have you tried one of the pet "fountains" that are
> > used for this purpose?
>
> > Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.
>
> > MaryL
>
> Don't have to make a slurry if he won't accept it (mine won't). Just
> pour a spoonful or three over the chunks - they'll soak up water from
> the bottom. If they start looking dry on top, just flip 'em over. This
> works very well for my cat.
>
> Second the "moving water" idea. Also the liquid from tuna in water, or
> salmon, is usually considered a treat, and you can probably add a little
> extra to help him out.
>
> There are lots of tricks of the trade to cause a cat to drink more water
> - I've tried many of them, since my cat has cystitis and we had some
> issues figuring this one out.
>
> jmc

Fresh filtered or distilled water only also, my kids love to have ice
cubes added which helps them "see" the water and gets them drinking
lots. Cats love cold water.

Sue M

Actual everything I have been reading is that distilled or purified water is
not actually good for anyone it lacks the natural minerals needed

MaryL
April 13th 09, 05:52 AM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
ng.com...
>
> Actual everything I have been reading is that distilled or purified water
> is not actually good for anyone it lacks the natural minerals needed
>

That's especially true of distilled water.

MaryL

Gandalf
April 13th 09, 06:34 AM
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 00:11:57 -0400, "Matthew"
> wrote:

>
>"sudee" > wrote in message
...
>On Apr 12, 7:30 am, jmc > wrote:
>> Suddenly, without warning, MaryL exclaimed (4/12/2009 9:33 AM):
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Eddy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is
>> >> over,
>> >> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>>
>> >> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been
>> >> found
>> >> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
>> >> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
>> >> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
>> >> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>>
>> >> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
>> >> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
>> >> becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
>> >> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
>> >> thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
>> >> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
>> >> inhibiting fluid.
>>
>> >> The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
>> >> with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
>> >> unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet advised
>> >> us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
>> >> every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
>> >> situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
>> >> pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
>> >> HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
>> >> moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
>> >> noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
>> >> happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
>> >> still is a great concern.
>>
>> >> So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a
>> >> quarter
>> >> in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
>> >> seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
>> >> buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
>> >> moisture from the rest of his body.
>>
>> >> Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
>> >> water into him via the feeding route.
>>
>> >> Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
>> >> else we can do?
>>
>> >> Thanks.
>>
>> >> Eddy.
>>
>> > Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become,
>> > so I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is
>> > important to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this
>> > problem, or something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give
>> > Ringer's lactate (which can also be administered at home, if it needs to
>> > be an ongoing thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your
>> > statement that you can't get more water into him via the feeding route.
>> > First, you could increase the water in his canned food somewhat by
>> > adding a small amount of warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort
>> > of "slurry." Some cats will reject it, but it's worth trying. Make
>> > sure it is a premium quality canned food *without* grains. Second
>> > (although this does not involve his food), some cats will drink more if
>> > the water is moving. Have you tried one of the pet "fountains" that are
>> > used for this purpose?
>>
>> > Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.
>>
>> > MaryL
>>
>> Don't have to make a slurry if he won't accept it (mine won't). Just
>> pour a spoonful or three over the chunks - they'll soak up water from
>> the bottom. If they start looking dry on top, just flip 'em over. This
>> works very well for my cat.
>>
>> Second the "moving water" idea. Also the liquid from tuna in water, or
>> salmon, is usually considered a treat, and you can probably add a little
>> extra to help him out.
>>
>> There are lots of tricks of the trade to cause a cat to drink more water
>> - I've tried many of them, since my cat has cystitis and we had some
>> issues figuring this one out.
>>
>> jmc
>
>Fresh filtered or distilled water only also, my kids love to have ice
>cubes added which helps them "see" the water and gets them drinking
>lots. Cats love cold water.
>
>Sue M
>
>Actual everything I have been reading is that distilled or purified water is
>not actually good for anyone it lacks the natural minerals needed
>

That is generally true. However, in a case where you need to get more
fluid into a reluctant cat, ANYTHING that works is good.

The purified/distilled water will make up a small % of the total water
intake (canned food is 70 to 80% water) so this won't affect the cat's
overall health.

I'm sorry you cat is so very, very sick.

I hope you can get him 'stabilized' ASAP, and that you have much more
quality time with him.

Eddy[_2_]
April 13th 09, 10:15 AM
dejablues wrote:

> You are misinformed. Diuretics like furosemide do not draw fluids out of
> bodily tissues. They are designed to reduce the load on the heart act by
> blocking the absorption of sodium, chloride, and water from the filtered
> fluid in the kidney tubules, causing an increase in the output of urine
> (diuresis). A cat in heart failure has excess fluid buildup, this is what is
> excreted via the administration of diuretics. There is no "moisture" being
> "drawn from" anywhere.
>
> Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy is a serious uncurable disease, and I'm sorry to
> say this, but you'd better end your cat's suffering sooner rather than
> later.

Deja, I know Wikipedia is not the most authoritative source of relevant
information but there Furosemide is described as being used to
indirectly treat either the heart OR general oedema. My vet has
indicated to me that our cat is taking Furosemide to lessen his oedema,
and that the ace-inhibitor he is taking each day is treating the heart.

We believe this is likely to be the case because, as I said before, on a
low dose of Furosemide our cat developed his breathing problem again,
probably due to being unable to expand his lungs fully due to
surrounding oedema. Then, as I said, when we doubled the daily dose of
Furosemide, the breathing returned to normal, but a general weight-loss
and thinness of the trunk occurred, due, probably, to the oedema
treatment.

We've now got him on a half-way dose of Furosemide, hoping that the
breathing diffficulty will not return and that the thinness will fill
out as his kidneys hopefully cease to extract too much water from his
system.

I note your advice "you'd better end your cat's suffering sooner rather
than later" but would remind you that due to our vet's diligence and our
own strict adherence to his quite complicated regimen of medication he
is currently NOT suffering at all. Indeed, the past two days have been
days of great pleasure and happiness for him, and therefore us. The
weather has turned excellent and he has spent all day sitting around in
the garden, fully alert to birds and insects, all the the sounds of
nature about him. And he has been showing us a great deal of affection
too. We know this is "borrowed time" and we greatly appreciate every
day of it. Of course, when he is clearly no longer happy and we know
that no more changes can be made to his medication, then indeed we will
ask the vet to visit and gently let him go off to sleep.

Eddy.

Eddy[_2_]
April 13th 09, 10:22 AM
MaryL wrote:

> Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become, so
> I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is important
> to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this problem, or
> something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give Ringer's lactate
> (which can also be administered at home, if it needs to be an ongoing
> thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your statement that you
> can't get more water into him via the feeding route. First, you could
> increase the water in his canned food somewhat by adding a small amount of
> warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort of "slurry." Some cats will
> reject it, but it's worth trying. Make sure it is a premium quality canned
> food *without* grains. Second (although this does not involve his food),
> some cats will drink more if the water is moving. Have you tried one of the
> pet "fountains" that are used for this purpose?
>
> Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.
>
> MaryL

Thanks, MaryL. I have looked up "Lactated Ringers" and I see that it is
"used for the treatment of dehydration and electrolyte depletion in
animals". So I will run this by the vet tomorrow. However, from the
little I have read of this on the internet just now it seems it has to
be injected subcutaneously. I think this would be too traumatic for us
and the poor cat.

Fingers crossed he won't get any thinner and his current happiness will
continue.

Many thanks.

Eddy.

Eddy[_2_]
April 13th 09, 10:28 AM
Thank you everybody re. the suggestion of adding water to his food to
get him to take in more fluid. I don't think this would work unless we
made the food tastier - perhaps by moving up to a more expensive (and
hopefully tastier) brand. We are on a tight budget here and so in the
past, several years ago actually, I tried adding a little water to their
food to make it go further and the result was that they wouldn't touch
it at all!

I have suddenly thought of one way of getting more water into him though
and that's to let him eat as much natural yoghourt as he wants! He
loves it. The only problem I can see with this is that he may get sick
of it and then we would have nothing to hide his aspirin in and avoid
the trauma of getting his aspirin into him. (Our two cats simply will
not permit anyone to put anything down their throats! They will keep
the throat closed for as long as you are willing to kneel there holding
them, and then spit the offending alien matter out onto the floor!) So
we need to insure that the yoghourt remains "a treat".

I wonder what else there may be beside yoghourt.

Eddy.

Matthew[_3_]
April 13th 09, 04:44 PM
Eddy Tuna juice or sardine juice
or maybe the gravy by itself they sell for cats


"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you everybody re. the suggestion of adding water to his food to
> get him to take in more fluid. I don't think this would work unless we
> made the food tastier - perhaps by moving up to a more expensive (and
> hopefully tastier) brand. We are on a tight budget here and so in the
> past, several years ago actually, I tried adding a little water to their
> food to make it go further and the result was that they wouldn't touch
> it at all!
>
> I have suddenly thought of one way of getting more water into him though
> and that's to let him eat as much natural yoghourt as he wants! He
> loves it. The only problem I can see with this is that he may get sick
> of it and then we would have nothing to hide his aspirin in and avoid
> the trauma of getting his aspirin into him. (Our two cats simply will
> not permit anyone to put anything down their throats! They will keep
> the throat closed for as long as you are willing to kneel there holding
> them, and then spit the offending alien matter out onto the floor!) So
> we need to insure that the yoghourt remains "a treat".
>
> I wonder what else there may be beside yoghourt.
>
> Eddy.
>

Matthew[_3_]
April 13th 09, 04:45 PM
Sorry Gandalf I did not mean just in this case


"Gandalf" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 00:11:57 -0400, "Matthew"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"sudee" > wrote in message
...
>>On Apr 12, 7:30 am, jmc > wrote:
>>> Suddenly, without warning, MaryL exclaimed (4/12/2009 9:33 AM):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > "Eddy" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >> I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is
>>> >> over,
>>> >> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>>>
>>> >> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been
>>> >> found
>>> >> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
>>> >> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and
>>> >> the
>>> >> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
>>> >> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>>>
>>> >> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
>>> >> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
>>> >> becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
>>> >> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
>>> >> thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
>>> >> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of
>>> >> the
>>> >> inhibiting fluid.
>>>
>>> >> The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
>>> >> with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
>>> >> unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet
>>> >> advised
>>> >> us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
>>> >> every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
>>> >> situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
>>> >> pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
>>> >> HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
>>> >> moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
>>> >> noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
>>> >> happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
>>> >> still is a great concern.
>>>
>>> >> So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a
>>> >> quarter
>>> >> in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
>>> >> seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
>>> >> buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal
>>> >> of
>>> >> moisture from the rest of his body.
>>>
>>> >> Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get
>>> >> more
>>> >> water into him via the feeding route.
>>>
>>> >> Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
>>> >> else we can do?
>>>
>>> >> Thanks.
>>>
>>> >> Eddy.
>>>
>>> > Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become,
>>> > so I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is
>>> > important to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this
>>> > problem, or something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give
>>> > Ringer's lactate (which can also be administered at home, if it needs
>>> > to
>>> > be an ongoing thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your
>>> > statement that you can't get more water into him via the feeding
>>> > route.
>>> > First, you could increase the water in his canned food somewhat by
>>> > adding a small amount of warm water to the food; stir it to make a
>>> > sort
>>> > of "slurry." Some cats will reject it, but it's worth trying. Make
>>> > sure it is a premium quality canned food *without* grains. Second
>>> > (although this does not involve his food), some cats will drink more
>>> > if
>>> > the water is moving. Have you tried one of the pet "fountains" that
>>> > are
>>> > used for this purpose?
>>>
>>> > Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.
>>>
>>> > MaryL
>>>
>>> Don't have to make a slurry if he won't accept it (mine won't). Just
>>> pour a spoonful or three over the chunks - they'll soak up water from
>>> the bottom. If they start looking dry on top, just flip 'em over. This
>>> works very well for my cat.
>>>
>>> Second the "moving water" idea. Also the liquid from tuna in water, or
>>> salmon, is usually considered a treat, and you can probably add a little
>>> extra to help him out.
>>>
>>> There are lots of tricks of the trade to cause a cat to drink more water
>>> - I've tried many of them, since my cat has cystitis and we had some
>>> issues figuring this one out.
>>>
>>> jmc
>>
>>Fresh filtered or distilled water only also, my kids love to have ice
>>cubes added which helps them "see" the water and gets them drinking
>>lots. Cats love cold water.
>>
>>Sue M
>>
>>Actual everything I have been reading is that distilled or purified water
>>is
>>not actually good for anyone it lacks the natural minerals needed
>>
>
> That is generally true. However, in a case where you need to get more
> fluid into a reluctant cat, ANYTHING that works is good.
>
> The purified/distilled water will make up a small % of the total water
> intake (canned food is 70 to 80% water) so this won't affect the cat's
> overall health.
>
> I'm sorry you cat is so very, very sick.
>
> I hope you can get him 'stabilized' ASAP, and that you have much more
> quality time with him.
>

Eddy[_2_]
April 13th 09, 08:28 PM
Matthew wrote:

> Eddy Tuna juice or sardine juice
> or maybe the gravy by itself they sell for cats

Thanks, Matthew. Have been a little wary of giving him the brine in
which his tuna comes because of its saltiness. Have assumed that the
salt would not be good for him. He gets a little tuna every morning in
which are mixed his crushed medication (the furosemide and the
ace-inhibitor) but I have been seiving the tuna flakes out and trying
not to give him the brine. Maybe I shouldn't worry about this. Perhaps
the sodium will help make up for the electrolytes he's losing because of
the action of the furosemide?

We've had another beautiful day today and it's such a privilege to be
outside in the garden with him watching him rolling around on his back
in a state of bliss just loving it all. It's really weird to be
watching him, now seemingly restored to near-perfect health and
appearances, but knowing that inside his little body is an enlarged
diseased heart that we are told will definitely not last more than a
couple of years, if that.

Eddy.

jmc
April 13th 09, 11:27 PM
Suddenly, without warning, Eddy exclaimed (4/13/2009 5:22 AM):
> MaryL wrote:
>
>> Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become, so
>> I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is important
>> to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this problem, or
>> something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give Ringer's lactate
>> (which can also be administered at home, if it needs to be an ongoing
>> thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your statement that you
>> can't get more water into him via the feeding route. First, you could
>> increase the water in his canned food somewhat by adding a small amount of
>> warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort of "slurry." Some cats will
>> reject it, but it's worth trying. Make sure it is a premium quality canned
>> food *without* grains. Second (although this does not involve his food),
>> some cats will drink more if the water is moving. Have you tried one of the
>> pet "fountains" that are used for this purpose?
>>
>> Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.
>>
>> MaryL
>
> Thanks, MaryL. I have looked up "Lactated Ringers" and I see that it is
> "used for the treatment of dehydration and electrolyte depletion in
> animals". So I will run this by the vet tomorrow. However, from the
> little I have read of this on the internet just now it seems it has to
> be injected subcutaneously. I think this would be too traumatic for us
> and the poor cat.
>
> Fingers crossed he won't get any thinner and his current happiness will
> continue.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Eddy.
>
>
>

Just had a random thought - is it possible the cat's been thin for a
while, but that it's been hidden by the oedema? If that's the case it
might not be a hydration problem. (question for the vet?)

Incidentally, if you increase his wet food, it'll increase his water
intake as well. And as to adding water, don't add a lot. Start with a
tiny bit, just enough to moisten. If that works, you can gradually
increase the amount, but it doesn't need to be soup.

jmc

jmc
April 13th 09, 11:28 PM
Or, the juice from cans of salmon. My cat *loves* oily salmon juice!

Suddenly, without warning, Matthew exclaimed (4/13/2009 11:44 AM):
> Eddy Tuna juice or sardine juice
> or maybe the gravy by itself they sell for cats
>
>
> "Eddy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thank you everybody re. the suggestion of adding water to his food to
>> get him to take in more fluid. I don't think this would work unless we
>> made the food tastier - perhaps by moving up to a more expensive (and
>> hopefully tastier) brand. We are on a tight budget here and so in the
>> past, several years ago actually, I tried adding a little water to their
>> food to make it go further and the result was that they wouldn't touch
>> it at all!
>>
>> I have suddenly thought of one way of getting more water into him though
>> and that's to let him eat as much natural yoghourt as he wants! He
>> loves it. The only problem I can see with this is that he may get sick
>> of it and then we would have nothing to hide his aspirin in and avoid
>> the trauma of getting his aspirin into him. (Our two cats simply will
>> not permit anyone to put anything down their throats! They will keep
>> the throat closed for as long as you are willing to kneel there holding
>> them, and then spit the offending alien matter out onto the floor!) So
>> we need to insure that the yoghourt remains "a treat".
>>
>> I wonder what else there may be beside yoghourt.
>>
>> Eddy.
>>
>
>

Phil P.
April 14th 09, 04:48 AM
"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
> I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is over,
> but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?
>
> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
> has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
> heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
> situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.
>
> One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
> restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
> becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
> taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
> thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
> of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
> inhibiting fluid.
>
> The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
> with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
> unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet advised
> us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
> every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
> situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
> pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
> HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
> moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
> noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
> happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
> still is a great concern.
>
> So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a quarter
> in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
> seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
> buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
> moisture from the rest of his body.
>
> Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
> water into him via the feeding route.
>
> Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
> else we can do?


Since your cat is receiving a diuretic, speak to your vet about a potassium
supplement. Diuretics promote rapid urine formation and rapid urine
formation promotes increased potassium excretion which can lead to
hypokalemia. Hypokalemia and/or potassium depletion can have very serious
effects on the heart and especially the kidneys.

In addition to the diuretic, you might want to speak to your vet about
nitroglycerin ointment (placed on the inside of the pinna). Its vasodilating
effect lowers the filling pressures in the left atrium and left ventricle
which will help reduce edema and should allow you to taper the dose of
furosemide.

Also, ask your vet why he chose an ace inhibitor over the calcium channel
blocker diltiazem? Diltiazem is the drug of choice in cats with HCM. In
addition to all diltiazem's many other benefits, a lot of cats receiving
diltiazem no longer need diuretics. Diltiazem also reduces hypertrophy in
the left ventricle and left atrium dimensions in some cats and also reduces
the risk of thromboembolism.

Does your cat have mitral valve regurgitation and/or SAM (Systolic Anterior
Motion of the mitral valve)?

I've managed several cats with HCM and CHF secondary to HCM successfully
with this regimen. So, contrary to popular belief, cats with HCM can live
several years after diagnosis and have a good quality of life with the right
treatment.

I think you should consult a veterinary cardiologist.

Best of luck,

Phil

Eddy[_2_]
April 14th 09, 10:12 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> Since your cat is receiving a diuretic, speak to your vet about a potassium
> supplement. Diuretics promote rapid urine formation and rapid urine
> formation promotes increased potassium excretion which can lead to
> hypokalemia. Hypokalemia and/or potassium depletion can have very serious
> effects on the heart and especially the kidneys.
>
> In addition to the diuretic, you might want to speak to your vet about
> nitroglycerin ointment (placed on the inside of the pinna). Its vasodilating
> effect lowers the filling pressures in the left atrium and left ventricle
> which will help reduce edema and should allow you to taper the dose of
> furosemide.
>
> Also, ask your vet why he chose an ace inhibitor over the calcium channel
> blocker diltiazem? Diltiazem is the drug of choice in cats with HCM. In
> addition to all diltiazem's many other benefits, a lot of cats receiving
> diltiazem no longer need diuretics. Diltiazem also reduces hypertrophy in
> the left ventricle and left atrium dimensions in some cats and also reduces
> the risk of thromboembolism.
>
> Does your cat have mitral valve regurgitation and/or SAM (Systolic Anterior
> Motion of the mitral valve)?
>
> I've managed several cats with HCM and CHF secondary to HCM successfully
> with this regimen. So, contrary to popular belief, cats with HCM can live
> several years after diagnosis and have a good quality of life with the right
> treatment.
>
> I think you should consult a veterinary cardiologist.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil
>
Thank you for all of the above, Phil.

Obviously broaching it with our vet will be a challenging thing to do,
but we will consider how best to do it.

The other reaction is to say that the current treatment has certainly
brought this cat back from the jaws of death. (While grinding up his
tablets on the kitchen work-surface this morning, he leapt up onto the
bench three times in his enthusiasm for his morning treat of "medication
with tuna"!)

Eddy.

Eddy[_2_]
April 14th 09, 10:19 AM
jmc wrote:
> Just had a random thought - is it possible the cat's been thin for a
> while, but that it's been hidden by the oedema? If that's the case it
> might not be a hydration problem. (question for the vet?)
>
> Incidentally, if you increase his wet food, it'll increase his water
> intake as well. And as to adding water, don't add a lot. Start with a
> tiny bit, just enough to moisten. If that works, you can gradually
> increase the amount, but it doesn't need to be soup.
>
> jmc

And that's a very good thought, JMC. Thanks. Never occurred to us.
Yes, up until he was drained of half a pint of fluid from around his
lungs he did always seem significantly more bulbous in his lower trunk
that his healthy twin-brother. So you could well be right.

He certainly not suffering at the moment from the new "thinness". I
mean, he's now behaving with all the joy and liveliness of the cat he
was when he was a year old. Yesterday he even appeared back inside the
house with a large vole he had caught!

I think you could well be right.

Anyway, we have lowered his daily dose of furosemide by an eighth as a
result of our fears that he it was overkilling the oedema and the oedema
does not seem to be returning. We will keep monitoring, and talk to the
vet.

Eddy.

Phil P.
April 23rd 09, 07:07 PM
"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
>
> One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
> to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
> has become enlarged and deformed,

What exactly do you mean by "deformed"? Is the shape of the heart globular
or like a valentine or lopsided valentine? Did your vet base her diagnosis
on x-rays or ultrasounds? Also, did you actually see the fluid that was
removed? Was it milky white or yellow to pink and opaque?

Phil