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Calvin
May 22nd 09, 12:46 AM
So far I have rebelled against my vet on this. Monday I took a
stray tomcat that I am adopting to my vet for an examination,
neutering, and treatment of his ailments.

The vet wanted to wait to do the neutering until later. He
gave him an ear treatment, a deworming pill, a rabies
shot, a test for leukemia (positive), and two prescriptions. I
gave him a flea treatment, and have been giving the
prescribed antibiotics twice a day.

But I haven't started with the interferon, which I'm keeping
refrigerated. I saw on the internet that it has side effects
such that it will almost certainly make the cat sick. I
never had a chance to talk to the vet about quality of
life vs. length of life, but he did say that there is no cure
for leukemia.

Since the cat has a huge appetite, and plenty of energy,
and responds lovingly to petting, I think his quality of
life is good right now, and the look and feel of his skin
and fur are responding well to the antibiotics, which I
will continue for the prescribed 10 day period, twice a
day. Hopefully at the end of that time he will be in
good shape enough to be neutered.

Am I wrong to refuse to administer the interferon in this
case?

Netmask
May 22nd 09, 09:45 AM
calvin wrote:
> So far I have rebelled against my vet on this. Monday I took a
> stray tomcat that I am adopting to my vet for an examination,
> neutering, and treatment of his ailments.
>
> The vet wanted to wait to do the neutering until later. He
> gave him an ear treatment, a deworming pill, a rabies
> shot, a test for leukemia (positive), and two prescriptions. I
> gave him a flea treatment, and have been giving the
> prescribed antibiotics twice a day.
>
> But I haven't started with the interferon, which I'm keeping
> refrigerated. I saw on the internet that it has side effects
> such that it will almost certainly make the cat sick. I
> never had a chance to talk to the vet about quality of
> life vs. length of life, but he did say that there is no cure
> for leukemia.
>
> Since the cat has a huge appetite, and plenty of energy,
> and responds lovingly to petting, I think his quality of
> life is good right now, and the look and feel of his skin
> and fur are responding well to the antibiotics, which I
> will continue for the prescribed 10 day period, twice a
> day. Hopefully at the end of that time he will be in
> good shape enough to be neutered.
>
> Am I wrong to refuse to administer the interferon in this
> case?




check this out

Interferon may be prescribed by your veterinarian. Interferon is a
natural protein released by cells which have been invaded by viruses &
assist the immune response by inhibiting viral replication.

http://www.cat-world.com.au/FelineLeukemiaVirus.htm


You need to be prepared for a short life expectancy of around 4 years
depending on the health at diagnosis and of course the cat needs to be
kept indoors at all times - to protect it and other cats. The prospects
are not as good as FIV+ cats that can live healthy lives for around 10
years after diagnosis - not a vet but have had many cats and just lost
my 14 year old boy to FIV+ (brain tumour)

Gandalf
May 22nd 09, 01:45 PM
On Thu, 21 May 2009 16:46:03 -0700 (PDT), calvin >
wrote:

>So far I have rebelled against my vet on this. Monday I took a
>stray tomcat that I am adopting to my vet for an examination,
>neutering, and treatment of his ailments.
>
>The vet wanted to wait to do the neutering until later. He
>gave him an ear treatment, a deworming pill, a rabies
>shot, a test for leukemia (positive), and two prescriptions. I
>gave him a flea treatment, and have been giving the
>prescribed antibiotics twice a day.
>
>But I haven't started with the interferon, which I'm keeping
>refrigerated. I saw on the internet that it has side effects
>such that it will almost certainly make the cat sick. I
>never had a chance to talk to the vet about quality of
>life vs. length of life, but he did say that there is no cure
>for leukemia.
>
>Since the cat has a huge appetite, and plenty of energy,
>and responds lovingly to petting, I think his quality of
>life is good right now, and the look and feel of his skin
>and fur are responding well to the antibiotics, which I
>will continue for the prescribed 10 day period, twice a
>day. Hopefully at the end of that time he will be in
>good shape enough to be neutered.
>
>Am I wrong to refuse to administer the interferon in this
>case?

You won't be able to administer enough gamma interferon to a cat to make
a difference for this incurable viral infection.

The 'side effects' of gamma interferon can only be described a 'worse
than the disease'.

From wikipedia:

The most frequent adverse effects are flu-like symptoms: increased body
temperature, feeling ill, fatigue, headache, muscle pain, convulsion,
dizziness, hair thinning, and depression. Erythema, pain and hardness on
the spot of injection are also frequently observed. Interferon therapy
causes immunosuppression, in particular through neutropenia and can
result in some infections manifesting in unusual ways.[12]

All known adverse effects are usually reversible and disappear **within
a year** after the therapy has been finished. (Emphasis mine)

Yes, side effects can last a very, very long time.

Gamma interferon causes a high fever. The kind that makes the roots of
your hair hurt, and everything else, too.

The kind of fever that leaves you too weak to get out of bed to get
water. I have seen it happen, in a hospital setting.

A cat that experiences the 'side effects' of gamma interferon will stop
eating and drinking, and look for a place to go hide and die.

You cannot explain to a cat that it for it's own good.

The cat will only know that it's death is imminent.

I have seen gamma interferon used to treat patients, when I worked in a
large hospital, as part of a large clinical trial.

Not a single patient could complete the course of interferon, with all
of the clinical support a hospital could offer.

To be 'effective', interferon must be administered for approx. 6 months,
for most viral infections for which is has been approved for use in
humans.

In a large University veterinary hospital setting, if you had tens of
thousands of dollars to spend, you might prolong a cat with feleuk a few
years, at best.

The leukopenia (greatly decreased white blood cell count) will leave the
cat susceptible to secondary viral and bacterial infections.

Respiratory infections, usually progressing to pneumonia, are the most
common.

Your vet is nothing short of ...what's the word...let's be charitable,
and just say 'grossly incompetent', IMHO, to prescribe interferon to a
cat that presented to him with all of the ills you describe.

I believe you have made the right decision.

There is no way to know how long he will have a good quality of life.

You must keep him indoors, always.

You should avoid touching all other cats, for you could easily carry an
illness to him that he may not be able to fight off.

Because his immune system is weakened, even vaccines may not protect him
from common feline illnesses.

Feline distemper is always fatal. The virus that causes it can survive,
out of doors, on environmental surfaces, for as long as a year. Your cat
may not be immune.

If at all possible, your cat should only be allowed at closed, glassed
windows on the ground floor, lest another stray cat give him a virus or
infectious bacteria through a screen. He can be allowed at screened
windows on a second floor, as long as there is no ground access for an
outside cat to the second floor window.

All possible precautions must be taken to avoid exposing your cat to any
possible source of sickness.

Feed him the very best cat food you can possibly afford. There is a
world of difference between the cheaper cat food, and the 'premium' cat
foods available currently. Cat food has improved markedly in the past 20
years.

And, if I were you, I would get another vet. Like doctors, there are a
great many mediocre veterinarians in the world.

Your cat needs a GOOD vet, to keep him as healthy as possible.

I have only had cats for 27 years.

In that time I have used the services of a considerable number of
veterinarians.

I even worked for one, for awhile.

We parted ways over the issue of declawing cats.

He made a considerable percentage of his income by permanently
mutilating cats.

He did it cheaper than just about any other vet, in a very large city.

He did it by cutting corners, in every possible way. Using as little
anesthetic as possible, for example.

I couldn't stand suturing up those butchered cats' paws. He also refused
to provide, or even prescribe, pain medication. He said the cats 'didn't
need it'. That. was. the. final. straw.

It has been my experience that, in general, female veterinarians tend to
be much 'better' vets. They tend to be more compassionate and more
personally involved in the care of the pets they take care of.

Thank you for taking in this poor unfortunate sick cat, and giving him a
loving home. I hope you have many happy years together.

Calvin
May 22nd 09, 02:31 PM
On May 22, 8:45*am, (Gandalf) wrote:
> On Thu, 21 May 2009 16:46:03 -0700 (PDT), calvin >
> wrote:
> >So far I have rebelled against my vet on this. *Monday I took a
> >stray tomcat that I am adopting to my vet for an examination,
> >neutering, and treatment of his ailments.
>
> >The vet wanted to wait to do the neutering until later. *He
> >gave him an ear treatment, a deworming pill, a rabies
> >shot, a test for leukemia (positive), and two prescriptions. *I
> >gave him a flea treatment, and have been giving the
> >prescribed antibiotics twice a day.
>
> >But I haven't started with the interferon, which I'm keeping
> >refrigerated. *I saw on the internet that it has side effects
> >such that it will almost certainly make the cat sick. *I
> >never had a chance to talk to the vet about quality of
> >life vs. length of life, but he did say that there is no cure
> >for leukemia.
>
> >Since the cat has a huge appetite, and plenty of energy,
> >and responds lovingly to petting, I think his quality of
> >life is good right now, and the look and feel of his skin
> >and fur are responding well to the antibiotics, which I
> >will continue for the prescribed 10 day period, twice a
> >day. *Hopefully at the end of that time he will be in
> >good shape enough to be neutered.
>
> >Am I wrong to refuse to administer the interferon in this
> >case?
>
> You won't be able to administer enough gamma interferon to a cat to make
> a difference for this incurable viral infection.
>
> The 'side effects' of gamma interferon can only be described a 'worse
> than the disease'.
>
> From wikipedia:
>
> The most frequent adverse effects are flu-like symptoms: increased body
> temperature, feeling ill, fatigue, headache, muscle pain, convulsion,
> dizziness, hair thinning, and depression. Erythema, pain and hardness on
> the spot of injection are also frequently observed. Interferon therapy
> causes immunosuppression, in particular through neutropenia and can
> result in some infections manifesting in unusual ways.[12]
>
> All known adverse effects are usually reversible and disappear **within
> a year** after the therapy has been finished. (Emphasis mine)
>
> Yes, side effects can last a very, very long time.
>
> Gamma interferon causes a high fever. The kind that makes the roots of
> your hair hurt, and everything else, too.
>
> The kind of fever that leaves you too weak to get out of bed to get
> water. I have seen it happen, in a hospital setting.
>
> A cat that experiences the 'side effects' of gamma interferon will stop
> eating and drinking, and look for a place to go hide and die.
>
> You cannot explain to a cat that it for it's own good.
>
> The cat will only know that it's death is imminent.
>
> I have seen gamma interferon used to treat patients, when I worked in a
> large hospital, as part of a large clinical trial.
>
> Not a single patient could complete the course of interferon, with all
> of the clinical support a hospital could offer.
>
> To be 'effective', interferon must be administered for approx. 6 months,
> for most viral infections for which is has been approved for use in
> humans.
>
> In a large University veterinary hospital setting, if you had tens of
> thousands of dollars to spend, you might prolong a cat with feleuk a few
> years, at best.
>
> The leukopenia (greatly decreased white blood cell count) will leave the
> cat susceptible to secondary viral and bacterial infections.
>
> Respiratory infections, usually progressing to pneumonia, are the most
> common.
>
> Your vet is nothing short of ...what's the word...let's be charitable,
> and just say 'grossly incompetent', *IMHO, to prescribe interferon to a
> cat that presented to him with all of the ills you describe.
>
> I believe you have made the right decision.
>
> There is no way to know how long he will have a good quality of life.
>
> You must keep him indoors, always.
>
> You should avoid touching all other cats, for you could easily carry an
> illness to him that he may not be able to fight off.
>
> Because his immune system is weakened, even vaccines may not protect him
> from common feline illnesses.
>
> Feline distemper is always fatal. The virus that causes it can survive,
> out of doors, on environmental surfaces, for as long as a year. Your cat
> may not be immune.
>
> If at all possible, your cat should only be allowed at closed, glassed
> windows on the ground floor, lest another stray cat give him a virus or
> infectious bacteria through a screen. He can be allowed at screened
> windows on a second floor, as long as there is no ground access for an
> outside cat to the second floor window.
>
> All possible precautions must be taken to avoid exposing your cat to any
> possible source of sickness.
>
> Feed him the very best cat food you can possibly afford. There is a
> world of difference between the cheaper cat food, and the 'premium' cat
> foods available currently. Cat food has improved markedly in the past 20
> years.
>
> And, if I were you, I would get another vet. Like doctors, there are a
> great many mediocre veterinarians in the world.
>
> Your cat needs a GOOD vet, to keep him as healthy as possible.
>
> I have only had cats for 27 years.
>
> In that time I have used the services of a considerable number of
> veterinarians.
>
> I even worked for one, for awhile.
>
> We parted ways over the issue of declawing cats.
>
> He made a considerable percentage of his income by permanently
> mutilating cats.
>
> He did it cheaper than just about any other vet, in a very large city.
>
> He did it by cutting corners, in every possible way. Using as little
> anesthetic as possible, for example.
>
> I couldn't stand suturing up those butchered cats' paws. He also refused
> to provide, or even prescribe, pain medication. He said the cats 'didn't
> need it'. That. was. the. final. straw.
>
> It has been my experience that, in general, female veterinarians tend to
> be much 'better' vets. They tend to be more compassionate and more
> personally involved in the care of the pets they take care of.
>
> Thank you for taking in this poor unfortunate sick cat, and giving him a
> loving home. I hope you have many happy years together.

Thanks to Netmask and Gandalf for the information
and advice. Since the cat is responding very well to
the antibiotics, and appears not to be suffering at all,
I'm assuming at this point that nothing needs to be done
as a result of the test for leukemia. For all I know it
was a false positive. I've always liked my vet very
much, but that could change if he reacts badly to my
refusal to administer interferon.

barb
May 22nd 09, 02:58 PM
Seems like you were correct in questioning your vet's plan. Best of luck
with the little guy.

Barb

Phil P.
May 23rd 09, 04:46 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...

> Thanks to Netmask and Gandalf for the information
> and advice.

That information you received from the latter was grossly incorrect and the
advice was even worse.



Since the cat is responding very well to
> the antibiotics, and appears not to be suffering at all,
> I'm assuming at this point that nothing needs to be done
> as a result of the test for leukemia. For all I know it
> was a false positive.

Which test? The in-office Snap test? or did your vet send a blood sample to
a lab for the IFA? A positive Snap result can mean the cat is is in process
of clearing the virus or in the process of developing a persistant FeLV
infection, or it could mean your cat is harboring the virus in some
**non-myeloid** part of the body. You need to have your cat's blood tested
with the IFA to know if your cat has a persistant infection.


I've always liked my vet very
> much, but that could change if he reacts badly to my
> refusal to administer interferon.

*Now's* the time to begin IFN therapy- while your cat is still asymptomatic
and the viral load is probably still low. Even low-dose (30 U every 24
hours) oral administration of rHuIFN-a can reduce clinical signs and improve
well-being in many infected cats. Given at this dose and route, IFN therapy
is safe, doesn't stimulate antibody production, is cheap, its easy to give,
and it might even prolong the asymptomatic period and possibly even your
cat's life.

Best of Luck,

Phil

Calvin
May 23rd 09, 05:46 AM
On May 22, 11:46*pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "calvin" > wrote:
> > Thanks to Netmask and Gandalf for the information
> > and advice.
>
> That information you received from the latter was grossly incorrect and the
> advice was even worse.
>
> > Since the cat is responding very well to
> > the antibiotics, and appears not to be suffering at all,
> > I'm assuming at this point that nothing needs to be done
> > as a result of the test for leukemia. *For all I know it
> > was a false positive.
>
> Which test? The in-office Snap test? or did your vet send a blood sample to
> a lab for the IFA? *A positive Snap result can mean the cat is is in process
> of clearing the virus or in the process of developing a persistant FeLV
> infection, or it could mean your cat is harboring the virus in some
> **non-myeloid** part of the body. You need to have your cat's blood tested
> with the IFA to know if your cat has a persistant infection.
>
> >*I've always liked my vet very
> > much, but that could change if he reacts badly to my
> > refusal to administer interferon.
>
> *Now's* the time to begin IFN therapy- while your cat is still asymptomatic
> and the viral load is probably still low. Even low-dose (30 U every 24
> hours) oral administration of rHuIFN-a can reduce clinical signs and improve
> well-being in many infected cats. Given at this dose and route, IFN therapy
> is safe, doesn't stimulate antibody production, is cheap, its easy to give,
> and it might even prolong the asymptomatic period and possibly even your
> cat's life.

The vet didn't prescribe low dose. He prescribed the 7-days-on
followed by 7-days-off, and endlessly repeating procedure, which
is the high dose, and that (if what I read is true) will make the cat
sick continuously.

The leukemia test was done overnight, so I assume it was
what you call the Snap test. Why should I not just continue
with the antibiotics as prescribed, and then have the vet look
at the cat again? I see the cat up close and personal every
day, and he doesn't seem sick to me. His skin and fur
look and feel better to me, though they have a ways to go
before they look completely okay, he has a huge appetite, and
loves to be rubbed all over. If he was listless and not eating,
that would be different.

As long as the cat is improving, I don't see a need to rush
into anything that will make him sick. I can't do the low-dose
thing until the vet provides me with what is to be used.

Phil P.
May 23rd 09, 08:09 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 22, 11:46 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "calvin" > wrote:
> > Thanks to Netmask and Gandalf for the information
> > and advice.
>
>> That information you received from the latter was grossly incorrect and
the
>> advice was even worse.
>
> > Since the cat is responding very well to
> > the antibiotics, and appears not to be suffering at all,
> > I'm assuming at this point that nothing needs to be done
> > as a result of the test for leukemia. For all I know it
> > was a false positive.
>
>> Which test? The in-office Snap test? or did your vet send a blood sample
to
>> a lab for the IFA? A positive Snap result can mean the cat is is in
process
>> of clearing the virus or in the process of developing a persistant FeLV
>> infection, or it could mean your cat is harboring the virus in some
>> **non-myeloid** part of the body. You need to have your cat's blood
tested
>> with the IFA to know if your cat has a persistant infection.
>
> > I've always liked my vet very
> > much, but that could change if he reacts badly to my
> > refusal to administer interferon.
>
>> *Now's* the time to begin IFN therapy- while your cat is still
asymptomatic
>> and the viral load is probably still low. Even low-dose (30 U every 24
>> hours) oral administration of rHuIFN-a can reduce clinical signs and
improve
>> well-being in many infected cats. Given at this dose and route, IFN
therapy
>> is safe, doesn't stimulate antibody production, is cheap, its easy to
give,
..> and it might even prolong the asymptomatic period and possibly even your
..> cat's life.

> The vet didn't prescribe low dose. He prescribed the 7-days-on
> followed by 7-days-off, and endlessly repeating procedure, which
is the high dose,


No. 7 on/7 off is the schedule for the *low-dose* treatment, i.e. 30
Units/q.d. PO.. The theory behind the 7 on/7 off protocol is so the cat
doesn't
develop antibodies to the rHuIFN-a. The high dose protocol is
administered *IM * for 5-7 weeks. How many units/day does the prescription
say?

What's the problem with administering IFN PO 7 on/7 off? Its no different
than if your cat had some other illness that required daily medication.

> and that (if what I read is true) will make the cat
> sick continuously


You've been misinformed or you misunderstood what you read. The 7 on/7 off
protocol doesn't make cats sick. I've treated literally dozens of FeLV+ cats
with higher doses PO and *never* had a problem. A few cats lived ~6 years
post diagnosis, other lived 3-5, and some cats extinguished the infection-
however, I can't say


> The leukemia test was done overnight, so I assume it was
> what you call the Snap test.

The Snap test takes only 10 minutes.


Why should I not just continue
> with the antibiotics as prescribed, and then have the vet look
> at the cat again?

I didn't say you stop the antibiotics. Definitely finish the full course of
antibiotics. But there is no reason why you shouldn't begin the IFN
therapy.


I see the cat up close and personal every
> day, and he doesn't seem sick to me.


FeLV+ cats can remain asymptomatic for months to years- but they're still
sick. IFN therapy might prolong the period that your cat is asymptomatic.
IFN doesn't work in every cat- but it works in enough cats to justify using
it.




His skin and fur
> look and feel better to me, though they have a ways to go
> before they look completely okay, he has a huge appetite, and
> loves to be rubbed all over. If he was listless and not eating,
> that would be different.


You're not getting this, are you? The reason for beginning IFN therapy now
is so he might remain asymptomatic longer.


> As long as the cat is improving, I don't see a need to rush
> into anything that will make him sick.

7 on/7 off won't make him sick. I've treated enough cats with this protocol
to know what I'm talking about.


> I can't do the low-dose
> thing until the vet provides me with what is to be used.

Of course.

Calvin
May 23rd 09, 11:24 AM
On May 23, 3:09*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "calvin" > wrote:
> On May 22, 11:46 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> > "calvin" > wrote:
> > > Thanks to Netmask and Gandalf for the information
> > > and advice.
>
> > > That information you received from the latter was grossly incorrect and
> > > and the
> >> advice was even worse.
>
> > > Since the cat is responding very well to
> > > the antibiotics, and appears not to be suffering at all,
> > > I'm assuming at this point that nothing needs to be done
> > > as a result of the test for leukemia. For all I know it
> > > was a false positive.
>
> >> Which test? The in-office Snap test? or did your vet send a blood sample
> to
> >> a lab for the IFA? A positive Snap result can mean the cat is is in
> process
> >> of clearing the virus or in the process of developing a persistant FeLV
> >> infection, or it could mean your cat is harboring the virus in some
> >> **non-myeloid** part of the body. You need to have your cat's blood
> tested
> >> with the IFA to know if your cat has a persistant infection.
>
> > > I've always liked my vet very
> > > much, but that could change if he reacts badly to my
> > > refusal to administer interferon.
>
> >> *Now's* the time to begin IFN therapy- while your cat is still
> asymptomatic
> >> and the viral load is probably still low. Even low-dose (30 U every 24
> >> hours) oral administration of rHuIFN-a can reduce clinical signs and
> improve
> >> well-being in many infected cats. Given at this dose and route, IFN
> therapy
> >> is safe, doesn't stimulate antibody production, is cheap, its easy to
>
> give,
> .> and it might even prolong the asymptomatic period and possibly even your
> .> cat's life.
>
> > The vet didn't prescribe low dose. *He prescribed the 7-days-on
> > followed by 7-days-off, and endlessly repeating procedure, which
>
> is the high dose,
>
> No. 7 on/7 off is the schedule for the *low-dose* treatment, i.e. 30
> Units/q.d. PO.. The theory behind the 7 on/7 off protocol is so the cat
> doesn't
> develop antibodies to the *rHuIFN-a. * The high dose protocol is
> administered *IM * for 5-7 weeks. How many units/day does the prescription
> say?
>
> What's the problem with administering IFN PO 7 on/7 off? *Its no different
> than if your cat had some other illness that required daily medication.

Because of what I read on the internet. It IS different from
another illness, because the vet said it is incurable; though
I'm not convinced that he has it. I want to know about
symptoms, not about a test result.
>
> > and that (if what I read is true) will make the cat
> > sick continuously
>
> You've been misinformed or you misunderstood what you read. The 7 on/7 off
> protocol doesn't make cats sick. I've treated literally dozens of FeLV+ cats
> with higher doses PO and *never* had a problem. *A few cats lived ~6 years
> post diagnosis, other lived 3-5, and some cats extinguished the infection-
> however, I can't say
>
> > The leukemia test was done overnight, so I assume it was
> > what you call the Snap test.
>
> The Snap test takes only 10 minutes.
>
> Why should I not just continue
>
> > with the antibiotics as prescribed, and then have the vet look
> > at the cat again?
>
> I didn't say you stop the antibiotics. Definitely finish the full course of
> antibiotics. *But there is no reason why you shouldn't begin the IFN
> therapy.
>
> *I see the cat up close and personal every
>
> > day, and he doesn't seem sick to me.
>
> FeLV+ cats can remain asymptomatic for months to years- but they're still
> sick. IFN therapy might prolong the period that your cat is asymptomatic.
> IFN doesn't work in every cat- but it works in enough cats to justify using
> it.
>
> *His skin and fur
>
> > look and feel better to me, though they have a ways to go
> > before they look completely okay, he has a huge appetite, and
> > loves to be rubbed all over. *If he was listless and not eating,
> > that would be different.
>
> You're not getting this, are you? *The reason for beginning IFN therapy now
> is so he might remain asymptomatic longer.
>
> > As long as the cat is improving, I don't see a need to rush
> > into anything that will make him sick.
>
> 7 on/7 off won't make him sick. I've treated enough cats with this protocol
> to know what I'm talking about.
>
> > *I can't do the low-dose
> > thing until the vet provides me with what is to be used.
>
> Of course.

Vet has already provided me with the 7-on/7-off
prescription and directions. Googling it shows
that it's the high dose. You call it the low dose.
Since I don't know whom to believe, I will continue
refusing to administer it.

I never said or implied that you were against
continuing with antibiotics. I merely asked why
I shouldn't just continue giving ONLY the
antibiotics, because I am AFRAID to give the
cat interferon, and the cat does not appear sick
to me, by my only indications of sick.

When I refer to the cat being sick or not, I mean only
that he feels bad or not. My only indications of feeling
bad are listlessness or lack of appetite. My only
indication of feeling good are showing affection and
purring when petted.

I'm told that what the cat has (based on some test, not
based on specific symptoms) is incurable leukemia.
If so, I would rather he live the rest of his days feeling
as good as possible, not feel bad and living longer.

I know we're not comunicating well. I'm not a vet. I
just have a horror of giving an animal something that
will make him feel bad, if all it is going to do is
prolong a life of feeling bad. I would rather he have
a good though shorter life.

After the 10 days of twice a day antibiotics are over,
I expect the cat to look and act great, based on the
improvement that I have seen already in his skin and
fur. The vet will see him after that period, and be
informed that I withheld the interferon. He can then
berate me all he likes, and we will take it from there.

Thank you for your advice.

---MIKE---
May 23rd 09, 12:43 PM
Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? He probably knows more about this
than your vet.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Calvin
May 23rd 09, 02:19 PM
On May 23, 7:43*am, (---MIKE---) wrote:
> Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? *He probably knows more about this
> than your vet.

I'm not going to give interferon to this cat until
after I've had a conversation with my vet about
quality of life vs. length of life. We should have
had that conversation before he prescribed it.

May 23rd 09, 07:17 PM
On 23 May, 04:43, (---MIKE---) wrote:
> Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? *He probably knows more about this
> than your vet.
>
> * * * * * * * * * --

Calvin
If Phil P told me the best treatment for a condition was to feed the
cat 20 tablets of LSD whilst adminstering 2 bottles of vodka rectally-
I'd go out and get the stuff!

He really does know what he is talking about, he's saying if your cat
currently has no symptoms then starting treatment now will help him
stay healthier longer I work in HIV and the best time to start
treatment is when the person has no symptoms- we work on the lab tests
(CD4 and viral loads) and many a patient who feels pretty damn good
gets started on treatment based on those tests and they go on for a
long time (we have patients who have been on therapy for 20+ years and
are still fine). Treating someone who has already got ill from HIV is
far more problematic.

Why not just try the interferon?

If the cat then shows signs of being ill then you can discuss it with
the vet even stop the treatment until you've seen the vet.

Or go back to your vet now and discuss your uneasiness about
interferon

Cats can be tougher than you think I've heard for example that
chemotherapy for cancer is a lot easier for cats than it is for Humans

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Calvin
May 23rd 09, 08:08 PM
On May 23, 2:17*pm, wrote:
> On 23 May, 04:43, (---MIKE---) wrote:
> > Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? *He probably knows more about this
> > than your vet.
>
> Calvin
> If Phil P told me the best treatment for a condition was to feed the
> cat 20 tablets of LSD whilst adminstering 2 bottles of vodka rectally-
> I'd go out and get the stuff!
>
> He really does know what he is talking about, he's saying if your cat
> currently has no symptoms then starting treatment now will help him
> stay healthier longer * I work in HIV and the best time to start
> treatment is when the person has no symptoms- we work on the lab tests
> (CD4 and viral loads) and many a patient who feels pretty damn good
> gets started on treatment based on those tests and they go on for a
> long time (we have patients who have been on therapy for 20+ years and
> are still fine). *Treating someone who has already got ill from HIV is
> far more problematic.
>
> Why not just try the interferon?
> If the cat then shows signs of being ill then you can discuss it with
> the vet even stop the treatment until you've seen the vet.
> Or go back to your vet now and discuss your uneasiness about
> interferon
> Cats can be tougher than you think I've heard for example that
> chemotherapy for cancer is a lot easier for cats than it is for Humans

I don't want to make the cat sick even once just to
find out if the interferon makes him sick or not. I
don't see any need to be hasty here. Also, it
seems reasonable to me to finish the antibiotics
first, and then we will know what effect the antibiotics
have had. If the cat gets interferon too, we won't know
which brought about the improvement, and you can
be sure everybody would claim it was the interferon.

At the very least what I am doing is providing data
on the effectiveness of antibiotics alone, and I see
clear improvement in the look and feel of the cat's
skin and fur already, even before today. So far the
cat has had the antibiotics 8 times, with 12 more
times to go, at 2 times per day.

May 23rd 09, 09:04 PM
On 23 May, 12:08, calvin > wrote:

I don't want to make the cat sick even once just to
> find out if the interferon makes him sick or not. *

Fair enough no one wants to make a cat sick- so how about now calling
the vet and discussing it with him or her?

Antibiotics will cure an infections but they have no effect wahatsover
in Feluk

I would really just call your vet and explain that you're uneasy about
the interferon because you've read/heard it makes the cat feel unwell.
I'd ask them to justify the prescription/dose and how that will impact
on the cats quality of life etc.
If your vet is halfway decent they'll take the time to go through the
options with you

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Calvin
May 23rd 09, 10:41 PM
On May 23, 4:04*pm, wrote:
> On 23 May, 12:08, calvin > wrote:
> > I don't want to make the cat sick even once just to
> > find out if the interferon makes him sick or not. *
>
> Fair enough no one wants to make a cat sick- so how about now calling
> the vet and discussing it with him or her?
>
> Antibiotics will cure an infections but they have no effect wahatsover
> in Feluk
>
> I would really just call your vet and explain that you're uneasy about
> the interferon because you've read/heard it makes the cat feel unwell.
> I'd ask them to justify the prescription/dose and how that will impact
> on the cats quality of life etc.
> If your vet is halfway decent they'll take the time to go through the
> options with you

The vet's assistant will call me around the end
time of the antibiotics, and I will tell her of the
condition of the cat, which I expect to be
excellent, and I will also tell her that I have
withheld the interferon, and ask her if I can
bring the cat back for the vet to look at again,
and possibly do the blood sample test for
feline leukemia before we start the interferon.
That way we will not be relying on the Snap
test, and the vet will see the cat looking good,
as opposed to his first sight of the cat looking
not so good.

Phil P.
May 24th 09, 07:55 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 23, 3:09 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
>> What's the problem with administering IFN PO 7 on/7 off? Its no different
>> than if your cat had some other illness that required daily medication.

> Because of what I read on the internet.


*Where* on the internet? Post the URLs. Does the information apply
*specifically* to cats? I think the information your read was extrapolated
from human studies.

If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read
Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug
handbook.

"Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have
apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse
effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia,
hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia,
nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient
hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome
most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the
condition treated."

"When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been
noted." Is that clear enough for you? If not, see the #2 veterinary drug
handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich- Professor
of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State.

"Adverse Effects



Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC
administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other
adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow
suppression."



Now you have information from *reliable* sources. Now what's your excuse?
If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make sure
its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*.



It IS different from
> another illness, because the vet said it is incurable;

So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases.

though
> I'm not convinced that he has it.

I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody
assay). A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow
and the cat is persistently infected.


I want to know about
> symptoms, not about a test result.


You're *still* not getting it! The reason for giving your cat interferon is
so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even
help your cat clear the virus. If you wait for your cat to develop
symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point.

You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses-
because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5 stages
of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3.
Here's a brief outline:

(1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes;
(2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that
disseminate the virus;
(3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells, and
bone marrow precursor cells;
(4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow into
the circulatory system; and
(5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent shedding
of virus into the saliva and urine

An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces the
virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops 4-6
weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat could
be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even years-
depending on the virus subgroup.

Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy?


>
> > and that (if what I read is true) will make the cat
> > sick continuously
>
> You've been misinformed or you misunderstood what you read. The 7 on/7 off
> protocol doesn't make cats sick. I've treated literally dozens of FeLV+
cats
> with higher doses PO and *never* had a problem. A few cats lived ~6 years
> post diagnosis, other lived 3-5, and some cats extinguished the infection-
> however, I can't say
>
> > The leukemia test was done overnight, so I assume it was
> > what you call the Snap test.
>
> The Snap test takes only 10 minutes.
>
> Why should I not just continue
>
> > with the antibiotics as prescribed, and then have the vet look
> > at the cat again?
>
> I didn't say you stop the antibiotics. Definitely finish the full course
of
> antibiotics. But there is no reason why you shouldn't begin the IFN
> therapy.
>
> I see the cat up close and personal every
>
> > day, and he doesn't seem sick to me.
>
>> FeLV+ cats can remain asymptomatic for months to years- but they're still
>> sick. IFN therapy might prolong the period that your cat is asymptomatic.
>> IFN doesn't work in every cat- but it works in enough cats to justify
using
> it.
>
> His skin and fur
>
>> > look and feel better to me, though they have a ways to go
>> > before they look completely okay, he has a huge appetite, and
>> > loves to be rubbed all over. If he was listless and not eating,
>> > that would be different.
>
>> You're not getting this, are you? The reason for beginning IFN therapy
now
>> is so he might remain asymptomatic longer.
>
>> > As long as the cat is improving, I don't see a need to rush
>> > into anything that will make him sick.
>
> 7 on/7 off won't make him sick. I've treated enough cats with this
protocol
> to know what I'm talking about.
>>
> > I can't do the low-dose
> > thing until the vet provides me with what is to be used.
>>
>> Of course.

>Vet has already provided me with the 7-on/7-off
>prescription and directions. Googling it shows
>that it's the high dose. You call it the low dose.
>Since I don't know whom to believe, I will continue
>refusing to administer it.

I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on
the perscription but you did not. I'm asking you again: Post the dose in IU
and route (PO, SC, IM).

<snip>

>I know we're not comunicating well.

I know- and its all my fault. I must try harder to be more tolerant of
obtuse and obstinate people.

Phil

Phil P.
May 24th 09, 07:55 AM
> wrote in message
...
On 23 May, 04:43, (---MIKE---) wrote:
>> Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? He probably knows more about this
>> than your vet.
>>
>> --

>Calvin
> If Phil P told me the best treatment for a condition was to feed the
> cat 20 tablets of LSD whilst adminstering 2 bottles of vodka rectally-
> I'd go out and get the stuff!

The vodka must be Stoli - neat. ;)

P

Calvin
May 24th 09, 03:26 PM
On May 24, 2:55*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> *Where* on the internet? *Post the URLs. Does the information apply
> *specifically* to cats? *I think the information your read was extrapolated
> from human studies.
>
> If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read
> Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. *Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug
> handbook.
>
> "Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have
> apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse
> effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia,
> hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia,
> nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient
> hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome
> most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the
> condition treated."
>
> "When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been
> noted." Is that clear enough for you? *If not, see the #2 veterinary drug
> handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich- Professor
> of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State.
>
> "Adverse Effects
>
> Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC
> administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other
> adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow
> suppression."
>
> Now you have information from *reliable* sources. *Now what's your excuse?
> If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make sure
> its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*.
>
> So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases.
>
> I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody
> assay). *A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow
> and the cat is persistently infected.
>
> You're *still* not getting it! *The reason for giving your cat interferon is
> so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even
> help your cat clear the virus. *If you wait for your cat to develop
> symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point.
>
> You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses-
> because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5 stages
> of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3.
> Here's a brief outline:
>
> (1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes;
> (2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that
> disseminate the virus;
> (3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells, and
> bone marrow precursor cells;
> (4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow into
> the circulatory system; and
> (5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent shedding
> of virus into the saliva and urine
>
> An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces the
> virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops 4-6
> weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat could
> be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even years-
> depending on the virus subgroup.
>
> Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy?
> I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on
> the perscription but you did not. *I'm asking you again: Post the dose in IU
> and route (PO, SC, IM).

I wish you wouldn't put so much time and effort into this.
Just accept the fact that interferon treatment for this cat
is being delayed until my vet explains the risks, which
I should have asked him to do, but had not yet become
alarmed.

You can Google 'interferon feline side effects' and you
will see many hits, some of which support your claims,
and some of which support my fears.

I understand your frustration, but please remember that
you have not seen the cat. What I see is a healthy-
looking energetic affectionate cat with a huge appetite. His
unhealthy-looking skin and fur has undergone a remarkable
improvement since antibiotics were started last Tuesday.

The vet's label on the bottle of interferon, which I keep
refrigerated, says:

INTERFERON ORAL SOLUTION
GIVE 1 ML DAILY FOR 7 DAYS,
SKIP A WEEK [etc]

There is nothing more specific, either on the bottle or
on the invoice. All it says about the test is:

Leukemia/FIV test 35.50

I gave the price only in case it gives you a clue about
the kind of test done. As I said before, the cat was
kept overnight for the test and other things done
(ear treatment, de-worm, rabies shot). Normally,
for my other cats, de-worm and rabies shot are
done quickly and in my presence. But in this case
the vet didn't do anything in my presence. He
called me the next day to talk things over, but since
I had not Googled anything yet, I didn't know enough
to talk about possible side effects, quality of life, etc.

Calvin
May 24th 09, 04:12 PM
One thing I might add, which I discovered yesterday, is
that the cat has lost his fangs. Though I asked the vet
to examine ears, eyes, and mouth, maybe he forgot to
look in his mouth. I've never heard of a cat not having
his fangs, and have no idea what the cause might be.

May 24th 09, 04:13 PM
On 23 May, 23:55, "Phil P." > wrote:

>
> The vodka must be Stoli - neat. ;)


Funnily enough I have a bottle of Stoli in the fridge- blast! Now
I'll have to keep it for some feline emergency whereas I was planning
to drink it myself sometime

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

May 24th 09, 04:21 PM
On 24 May, 08:12, calvin > wrote:
> One thing I might add, which I discovered yesterday, is
> that the cat has lost his fangs. *Though I asked the vet
> to examine ears, eyes, and mouth, maybe he forgot to
> look in his mouth. *I've never heard of a cat not having
> his fangs, and have no idea what the cause might be.


Is it just me or do i think failing to examine a cat;s mouth is not a
good sign? My vet checks the mouth without being asked or reminded to
do so, it's an integral part of the annual examination, in fact my vet
starts at the head i.e.ears, eyes, nose, mouth, chest etc during a
routine annual and only deviates from this if you've mentioned
something or have brought the cat in for a specific symptom

As for losing his fangs? Trauma? You said he was a stray perhaps he's
been harmed in some way, again I would ask Phil P

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Calvin
May 24th 09, 04:49 PM
On May 24, 11:21*am, wrote:
> On 24 May, 08:12, calvin > wrote:
> > One thing I might add, which I discovered yesterday, is
> > that the cat has lost his fangs. *Though I asked the vet
> > to examine ears, eyes, and mouth, maybe he forgot to
> > look in his mouth. *I've never heard of a cat not having
> > his fangs, and have no idea what the cause might be.
>
> Is it just me or do i think failing to examine a cat;s mouth is not a
> good sign? *My vet checks the mouth without being asked or reminded to
> do so, it's an integral part of the annual examination, in fact my vet
> starts at the head i.e.ears, eyes, nose, mouth, chest etc during a
> routine annual and only deviates from this if you've mentioned
> something or have brought the cat in for a specific symptom
>
> As for losing his fangs? Trauma? You said he was a stray perhaps he's
> been harmed in some way, again I would ask Phil P

I guess we all can compare vets, but I've been taking my cats,
a total of 13 so far, though I currently have 9, including the
tomcat, to my vet 20 miles away because I've always liked
him, and have had perfect results. The vet of a person I know
has seemed terrible by comparison.

May 24th 09, 08:16 PM
On 24 May, 08:49, calvin > wrote:

>
> I guess we all can compare vets, but I've been taking my cats,
> a total of 13 so far, though I currently have 9, including the
> tomcat, to my vet 20 miles away because I've always liked
> him, and have had perfect results. *The vet of a person I know
> has seemed terrible by comparison.- Hide quoted text -
>
Fine you're happy with the vet then that's good and believe me I know
some horrible vet stories like the vet that coluded with the lady of
the house (who couldn't bear to think of giving her dear old Jaws a
peaceful passing) against a friend of mine so they ended up spending
several thousand dollars to keep the cat going when it was cruel to do
so but the vet did say things to her like "This new treatment may
work- you woudln't want to give up on him would you?" or "I'm sure
you'd like to know you tried everything to save him?" you get the
picture

My vet I',m not keen on the actual practice but my heart sinks
whenever she talks about going back to Australia and when she does I
will change practices to one nearby that some friends have recommended
but she's always been great with my cats over the last 10 years-we met
as a result of a sudden emergency and even through Fugazi and me had
been slotted in at the end of the clinic she took time to go through
the options in fact it was me who first raised the word "Euthanasia"
and she guided me through the options, helped me make the decision (in
my head I'd been thinking it was coming for a few hours but this was
the first time and I'd really been hoping when we got to the vets
she's write a prescription and all would be well) took me through it
with immense kindness......All this when she should have finished half
an hour before ...

She's a great vet- even Sarsi who has a serious attuitude problem
sometimes at home and gets out of the carrier at the vets looking
around for something to kill then sees her and immediately thinks
"Friend"

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Phil P.
May 25th 09, 09:49 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 24, 2:55 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> *Where* on the internet? Post the URLs. Does the information apply
> *specifically* to cats? I think the information your read was extrapolated
> from human studies.
>
> If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read
> Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug
> handbook.
>
> "Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have
> apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse
> effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia,
> hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia,
> nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient
> hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome
> most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the
> condition treated."
>
> "When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been
> noted." Is that clear enough for you? If not, see the #2 veterinary drug
>> handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich-
Professor
>> of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State.
>
>> "Adverse Effects
>
>> Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC
>> administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other
>> adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow
>> suppression."
>
>> Now you have information from *reliable* sources. Now what's your excuse?
> If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make
sure
>> its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*.
>
>> So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases.
>
>> I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody
> assay). A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow
>> and the cat is persistently infected.
>
> You're *still* not getting it! The reason for giving your cat interferon
is
> so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even
>> help your cat clear the virus. If you wait for your cat to develop
>> symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point.
>
>> You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses-
> because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5
stages
> of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3.
>> Here's a brief outline:
>
..> (1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes;
>> (2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that
>> disseminate the virus;
>> (3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells,
and
>> bone marrow precursor cells;
>> (4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow
into
>> the circulatory system; and
>> (5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent
shedding
>> of virus into the saliva and urine
>
>> An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces
the
>> virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops
4-6
>> weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat
could
>> be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even
years-
>> depending on the virus subgroup.
>
>> Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy?
>> I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on
>> the perscription but you did not. I'm asking you again: Post the dose in
IU
>> and route (PO, SC, IM).

> I wish you wouldn't put so much time and effort into this.

I don't mind. I'm used to trying help cats suffering from C.O.S. Its what I
do.


> Just accept the fact that interferon treatment for this cat
> is being delayed until my vet explains the risks, which
> I should have asked him to do, but had not yet become
> alarmed.


Your vet didn't explain the risks to you because there are *none* at that
dose and route. I posted two highly credible sources that should have
convinced you. Will you believe your vet when he tells you the same thing?

> You can Google 'interferon feline side effects' and you
> will see many hits, some of which support your claims,
> and some of which support my fears.

I don't have to Google 'interferon feline side effects' - because I"ve been
using it in cats since 1991 and already know there are none at that dose and
route. I rely on peer-reviewed veterinary journals, veterinary medical
texts and about 45 years of direct personal experience . I've been studying
this disease and treatments since it was discovered in the '60s. Ohio State
is working a new treatment that looks very promising, but it hasn't
undergone enough testing.

I want you to post the URLs so I can see who published the bogus information
and possibly correct it so others won't be misled as you have been.



> I understand your frustration, but please remember that
> you have not seen the cat.What I see is a healthy-
> looking energetic affectionate cat with a huge appetite. His
> unhealthy-looking skin and fur has undergone a remarkable
> improvement since antibiotics were started last Tuesday.

What part of "asymptomatic" don't you understand? Most cats in the early
stages of FeLV infection appear perfectly healthy for months.


> The vet's label on the bottle of interferon, which I keep
> refrigerated, says:

> INTERFERON ORAL SOLUTION
> GIVE 1 ML DAILY FOR 7 DAYS,
> SKIP A WEEK [etc]

>There is nothing more specific, either on the bottle or
>on the invoice.

That *IS* the LOW DOSE. protocol. 1 ml contains 30 IU. Its a very weak
dilution of a 3 million IU solution.


"IMMUNE STIMULATING AGENTS
There are numerous products on the market claiming to stimulate the immune
system of the FIV+ cat. These include Acemannan, levamisole, Immunoregulin®,
and interferon alpha. None of these products have been shown definitively to
be helpful though it appears that they certainly do not do any harm. Our
hospital recommends interferon alpha for asymptomatic cats as it is
relatively inexpensive and our impression is that it helps. Interferon alpha
is used in an extremely dilute form (not the much higher anti-viral doses)
and is used as a salty liquid added to the cat's food or administered orally
on a daily basis."
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_owning_an_fiv__cat.html

Side Effects
.. Cats: Side effects due to low dose oral protocols are rare. Parenteral
treatment carries a higher incidence of side effects, particularly malaise,
and flu-like symptoms and less commonly fever, allergic reactions. Bone
marrow suppression has been reported in humans.
http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/monographs/interferon-alpha.asp



> All it says about the test is:

> Leukemia/FIV test 35.50

That's about the cost of a Snap test. An IFA is about $50.


> I gave the price only in case it gives you a clue about
> the kind of test done. As I said before, the cat was
> kept overnight for the test and other things done
> (ear treatment, de-worm, rabies shot). Normally,
> for my other cats, de-worm and rabies shot are
> done quickly and in my presence. But in this case
> the vet didn't do anything in my presence. He
> called me the next day to talk things over, but since
> I had not Googled anything yet, I didn't know enough
> to talk about possible side effects, quality of life, etc.

Why not call your vet tomorrow- don't wait until you finish the antibotics?

Calvin
May 25th 09, 02:12 PM
On May 25, 4:49*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "calvin" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On May 24, 2:55 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > *Where* on the internet? Post the URLs. Does the information apply
> > *specifically* to cats? I think the information your read was extrapolated
> > from human studies.
>
> > If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read
> > Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug
> > handbook.
>
> > "Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have
> > apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse
> > effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia,
> > hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia,
> > nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient
> > hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome
> > most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the
> > condition treated."
>
> > "When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been
> > noted." Is that clear enough for you? If not, see the #2 veterinary drug
> >> handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich-
> Professor
> >> of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State.
>
> >> "Adverse Effects
>
> >> Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC
> >> administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other
> >> adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow
> >> suppression."
>
> >> Now you have information from *reliable* sources. Now what's your excuse?
> > If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make
> sure
> >> its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*.
>
> >> So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases.
>
> >> I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody
> > assay). A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow
> >> and the cat is persistently infected.
>
> > You're *still* not getting it! The reason for giving your cat interferon
> is
> > so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even
> >> help your cat clear the virus. If you wait for your cat to develop
> >> symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point.
>
> >> You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses-
> > because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5
> stages
> > of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3.
> >> Here's a brief outline:
>
> .> (1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes;
>
>
>
>
>
> >> (2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that
> >> disseminate the virus;
> >> (3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells,
> and
> >> bone marrow precursor cells;
> >> (4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow
> into
> >> the circulatory system; and
> >> (5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent
> shedding
> >> of virus into the saliva and urine
>
> >> An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces
> the
> >> virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops
> 4-6
> >> weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat
> could
> >> be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even
> years-
> >> depending on the virus subgroup.
>
> >> Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy?
> >> I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on
> >> the perscription but you did not. I'm asking you again: Post the dose in
> IU
> >> and route (PO, SC, IM).
> > I wish you wouldn't put so much time and effort into this.
>
> I don't mind. *I'm used to trying help cats suffering from C.O.S. Its what I
> do.
>
> > Just accept the fact that interferon treatment for this cat
> > is being delayed until my vet explains the risks, which
> > I should have asked him to do, but had not yet become
> > alarmed.
>
> Your vet didn't explain the risks to you because there are *none* at that
> dose and route. I posted two highly credible sources that should have
> convinced you. *Will you believe your vet when he tells you the same thing?
>
> > You can Google 'interferon feline side effects' and you
> > will see many hits, some of which support your claims,
> > and some of which support my fears.
>
> I don't have to Google 'interferon feline side effects' - because I"ve been
> using it in cats since 1991 and already know there are none at that dose and
> route. *I rely on peer-reviewed veterinary journals, veterinary medical
> texts and about 45 years of direct personal experience . I've been studying
> this disease and treatments since it was discovered in the '60s. *Ohio State
> is working a new treatment that looks very promising, but it hasn't
> undergone enough testing.
>
> I want you to post the URLs so I can see who published the bogus information
> and possibly correct it so others won't be misled as you have been.
>
> > I understand your frustration, but please remember that
> > you have not seen the cat.What I see is a healthy-
> > looking energetic affectionate cat with a huge appetite. *His
> > unhealthy-looking skin and fur has undergone a remarkable
> > improvement since antibiotics were started last Tuesday.
>
> What part of "asymptomatic" don't you understand? *Most cats in the early
> stages of FeLV infection appear perfectly healthy for months.
>
> > The vet's label on the bottle of interferon, which I keep
> > refrigerated, says:
> > INTERFERON ORAL SOLUTION
> > GIVE 1 ML DAILY FOR 7 DAYS,
> > SKIP A WEEK [etc]
> >There is nothing more specific, either on the bottle or
> >on the invoice.
>
> That *IS* *the LOW DOSE. protocol. 1 ml contains 30 IU. *Its a very weak
> dilution of a 3 million IU solution.
>
> "IMMUNE STIMULATING AGENTS
> There are numerous products on the market claiming to stimulate the immune
> system of the FIV+ cat. These include Acemannan, levamisole, Immunoregulin®,
> and interferon alpha. None of these products have been shown definitively to
> be helpful though it appears that they certainly do not do any harm. Our
> hospital recommends interferon alpha for asymptomatic cats as it is
> relatively inexpensive and our impression is that it helps. Interferon alpha
> is used in an extremely dilute form (not the much higher anti-viral doses)
> and is used as a salty liquid added to the cat's food or administered orally
> on a daily basis."http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_owning_an_fiv__cat..html
>
> Side Effects
> . Cats: Side effects due to low dose oral protocols are rare. Parenteral
> treatment carries a higher incidence of side effects, particularly malaise,
> and flu-like symptoms and less commonly fever, allergic reactions. Bone
> marrow suppression has been reported in humans.http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/monographs/interferon-alpha.asp
>
> > All it says about the test is:
> > Leukemia/FIV test *35.50
>
> That's about the cost of a Snap test. An IFA is about $50.
>
> > I gave the price only in case it gives you a clue about
> > the kind of test done. *As I said before, the cat was
> > kept overnight for the test and other things done
> > (ear treatment, de-worm, rabies shot). *Normally,
> > for my other cats, de-worm and rabies shot are
> > done quickly and in my presence. *But in this case
> > the vet didn't do anything in my presence. *He
> > called me the next day to talk things over, but since
> > I had not Googled anything yet, I didn't know enough
> > to talk about possible side effects, quality of life, etc.
>
> Why not call your vet tomorrow- don't wait until you finish the antibotics?

I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
low dose. What I read on the internet shows the Greek
letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. But I give
up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Calvin
May 25th 09, 03:09 PM
On May 25, 9:12*am, calvin > wrote:
> I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
> low dose. *What I read on the internet shows the Greek
> letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
> day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. *But I give
> up and will do whatever the vet says. *He can take the
> blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
> it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Clarification: It was what I read on the internet about the low dose.

cybercat
May 25th 09, 04:35 PM
"calvin" > wrote

[...]

>I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
>low dose. What I read on the internet shows the Greek
>letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
>day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. But I give
>up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
>blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
>it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Calvin. Arguing with Phil is dumb enough, but now that you are actually
second-guessing both he AND your vet, that's a bit much.
You're WRONG. Let it go. It happens to the best of us.

cybercat
May 25th 09, 04:37 PM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 25, 9:12 am, calvin > wrote:
> I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
> low dose. What I read on the internet shows the Greek
> letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
> day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. But I give
> up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
> blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
> it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

>Clarification: It was what I read on the internet about the low dose.

**** the Internet, Calvin. Any idiot can post anythign on the web. You are
living proof of it. Google Phil a bit more and see where he gets his
information. He has saved lots of cats' lives around here, and at home in
NY. You have better things to do than argue with Phil over medical treatment
of cats, believe me.

Calvin
May 25th 09, 05:09 PM
On May 25, 11:35*am, "cybercat" > wrote:
> Calvin. Arguing with Phil is dumb enough, but now that you are actually
> second-guessing both he AND your vet, that's a bit much.
> You're WRONG. Let it go. It happens to the best of us.

Dude, I don't need you coming in here now to flame me after
I've already acquiesced and started doing it as the vet prescribed.
You're late, and your input is not needed, since I'm obeying
the vet.

As for arguing with Phil, I don't know him from any other
usenet poster, since this thread is my first contact with
him. Until your barging into it, this thread has been civil.
Now please go away.

Calvin
May 25th 09, 05:10 PM
On May 25, 11:37*am, "cybercat" > wrote:
> **** the Internet, Calvin. Any idiot can post anythign on the web. You are
> living proof of it. Google Phil a bit more and see where he gets his
> information. He has saved lots of cats' lives around here, and at home in
> NY. You have better things to do than argue with Phil over medical treatment
> of cats, believe me.

See response to your previous post.

cybercat
May 25th 09, 05:43 PM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 25, 11:35 am, "cybercat" > wrote:
> Calvin. Arguing with Phil is dumb enough, but now that you are actually
> second-guessing both he AND your vet, that's a bit much.
> You're WRONG. Let it go. It happens to the best of us.

>Dude, I don't need you coming in here now to flame me after
>I've already acquiesced and started doing it as the vet prescribed.
>You're late, and your input is not needed, since I'm obeying
>the vet.

But you still think he AND Phil are wrong.

>As for arguing with Phil, I don't know him from any other
>usenet poster, since this thread is my first contact with
>him. Until your barging into it, this thread has been civil.
>Now please go away.

Dude. I don't think so.

cybercat
May 25th 09, 05:44 PM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 25, 11:37 am, "cybercat" > wrote:
> **** the Internet, Calvin. Any idiot can post anythign on the web. You are
> living proof of it. Google Phil a bit more and see where he gets his
> information. He has saved lots of cats' lives around here, and at home in
> NY. You have better things to do than argue with Phil over medical
> treatment
> of cats, believe me.

>See response to your previous post.

Yeah. So what? I think you're stupid.

cybercat
May 25th 09, 05:51 PM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 25, 11:37 am, "cybercat" > wrote:
> **** the Internet, Calvin. Any idiot can post anythign on the web. You are
> living proof of it. Google Phil a bit more and see where he gets his
> information. He has saved lots of cats' lives around here, and at home in
> NY. You have better things to do than argue with Phil over medical
> treatment
> of cats, believe me.

>See response to your previous post.

Let me just clarify this a little for you, Cal.. You're objecting to the
advice given you by two people who have worked with actual cats and their
actual heath issues for years, based upon stuff you found on the web.

Pretty stupid. HTH.

Calvin
May 25th 09, 05:55 PM
On May 25, 12:44*pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
> I think you're stupid.

If you want your words to sting, you will need
to develop a better posting personality.

Calvin
May 25th 09, 07:55 PM
On May 25, 12:51*pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
> Let me just clarify this a little for you, Cal.. You're objecting to the
> advice given you by two people who have worked with actual cats and their
> actual heath issues for years, based upon stuff you found on the web.
>
> Pretty stupid. HTH.

Let me clarify this for you, anonymouse. I took their
advice, and then you came along to insult me after
I did so.

Pretty stupid, huh?

jmc
May 25th 09, 09:17 PM
Suddenly, without warning, exclaimed
(5/23/2009 2:17 PM):
> On 23 May, 04:43, (---MIKE---) wrote:
>> Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? He probably knows more about this
>> than your vet.
>>
>> --
>
> Calvin
> If Phil P told me the best treatment for a condition was to feed the
> cat 20 tablets of LSD whilst adminstering 2 bottles of vodka rectally-
> I'd go out and get the stuff!
>

I second this. Calvin, please listen to Phil P. I've been here for a
long time, and Phil is one of our most experienced and knowledgeable
posters, and gives good advice.

jmc

jmc
May 25th 09, 09:43 PM
Suddenly, without warning, calvin exclaimed (5/25/2009 9:12 AM):

>
> I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
> low dose. What I read on the internet shows the Greek
> letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
> day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. But I give
> up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
> blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
> it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Calvin,

Thank you, for your cat's sake. As has been mentioned previously, Phil
P. really, really does know what he's talking about. I understand that
you might not know him from Adam, but if you did a little Google Groups
research you would find that he does give good advice and has saved many
cats' lives. He has given me good advice, which I have followed, and
which has helped my cat out tremendously (here's a link to an example:
http://tinyurl.com/pnesvb)

The only harm done would have been if you continued to ignore both your
vet's and Phil's advice. BTW, if you so distrusted your vet's opinion,
why didn't you go to a vet for a second opinion? I would have!

The problem with internet research is that it's not exactly a balanced
sampling - people are much more likely to post bad results than good
ones, so it's a good idea to multiply each "good result" you find by
about a factor of 10, while leaving each "bad result" as just one case.
(did that make sense? (Gx10)+(B) = approx reality :) )

Anyway, I'm glad you're at least trying the interferon. Please let us
know how it goes!

jmc

cybercat
May 26th 09, 01:25 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 25, 12:51 pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
> Let me just clarify this a little for you, Cal.. You're objecting to the
> advice given you by two people who have worked with actual cats and their
> actual heath issues for years, based upon stuff you found on the web.
>
> Pretty stupid. HTH.

>Let me clarify this for you, anonymouse. I took their
>advice, and then you came along to insult me after
>I did so.

>Pretty stupid, huh?

You took their advice while still claiming it cannot be right. Hence your
comment that any bad outcome is the vet's responsibility. Now then, I am
going to let you have the last word. Because I am embarrassed for you.

cybercat
May 26th 09, 01:25 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 25, 12:44 pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
> I think you're stupid.

>If you want your words to sting, you will need
>to develop a better posting personality.

I don't have any agenda. Just speaking the truth as I see it.

Calvin
May 26th 09, 02:12 AM
On May 25, 8:25*pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
> going to let you have the last word. Because I am embarrassed for you.

Whatever you think makes you look good at other
people's expense. There are people like you all over
the internet.

Phil P.
May 26th 09, 07:13 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On May 25, 4:49 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "calvin" > wrote in message
>
>> Why not call your vet tomorrow- don't wait until you finish the
antibiotics?

> I started the interferon today,


Good man! I may be a prick, but I never give advice that would harm a cat.


but I don't believe it is the
> low dose.

I'm telling you, it is the low dose- 30 IU/ml. High dose protocols are
given IM or IP.


What I read on the internet shows the Greek
> letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
> day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence.


The Greek letter "alpha" means interferon "alpha". There a few
different types of interferon; e.g.., interferon beta, interferon gamma, and
the new feline interferon omega @ about $250 a vial- which isn't available
in the US yet without special approval from customs and the FDA. One of the
first replies you got about the adverse effects of interferon pertained to
high-dose interferon *gamma* - not low dose interferon alpha which you are
giving your cat. See what I
mean about being careful about believing what you read on the internet.

The reason for 7 days on/7 days off is so the cat doesn't develop antibodies
to the interferon which is of human origin. A lot of vets don't advise
skipping a week because the risk of developing anti-interferon antibodies at
such a low dose is practically nil -which is true. None of the adverse
effects that occurred in humans (e.g.bone marrow suppression) have never
been reported in cats on the protocol your cat is on.



But I give
> up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
> blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
> it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Your vet sounds pretty good to me. Most vets recommend killing cats with
FeLV- even if they're asymptomatic.

You can save a lot of money by mixing up your own IFN. Your cost would be ~
$50 for a year's supply.

Keep me posted on his progress.

Best of luck,

Phil

Calvin
May 26th 09, 02:16 PM
On May 26, 2:13*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> ...
> Your vet sounds pretty good to me. *Most vets recommend killing cats with
> FeLV- even if they're asymptomatic.
> ...

I won't allow killing a cat unless he is obviously suffering
and I am unable to calm him and make him purr. This
cat was far from that condition when I took him to the
vet last Monday. He had, and still has, a huge appetite
loves to be petted, and has plenty of energy. To advocate
killing a cat simply because of a positive test result, with
no other symptoms, would be criminal in my opinion.