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chatnoir
August 15th 09, 06:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds

cybercat
August 15th 09, 06:59 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds

So what is the answer?

FirstHit
August 15th 09, 07:54 AM
On Aug 14, 10:51*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds

It's quite discouraging that people use the cat colonies as an excuse
to dump off their unwanted (and probably unneutered) pets.

The video's suggestion to relocate the neutered cats instead of
returning them sounds like a good idea, but with the overloaded
shelters it may be easier said than done.

FirstHit

chatnoir
August 15th 09, 12:29 PM
On Aug 14, 11:54*pm, FirstHit > wrote:
> On Aug 14, 10:51*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> It's quite discouraging that people use the cat colonies as an excuse
> to dump off their unwanted (and probably unneutered) pets.
>
> The video's suggestion to relocate the neutered cats instead of
> returning them sounds like a good idea, but with the overloaded
> shelters it may be easier said than done.
>
> FirstHit

The shelters are very full now with the economy! So, is the place I
go to buy pet food! It has lots of kittens on display!

jmc
August 15th 09, 02:27 PM
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
> ...
>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> So what is the answer?
>
>

Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
overloaded, I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human
population can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
indiscriminately.

I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but there
truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.

jmc

FirstHit
August 15th 09, 04:58 PM
On Aug 15, 4:29*am, chatnoir > wrote:
> On Aug 14, 11:54*pm, FirstHit > wrote:
>
> > On Aug 14, 10:51*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > It's quite discouraging that people use the cat colonies as an excuse
> > to dump off their unwanted (and probably unneutered) pets.
>
> > The video's suggestion to relocate the neutered cats instead of
> > returning them sounds like a good idea, but with the overloaded
> > shelters it may be easier said than done.
>
> > FirstHit
>
> The shelters are very full now with the economy! *So, is the place I
> go to buy pet food! *It has lots of kittens on display!

Yeah, I've noticed!

FirstHit

cybercat
August 15th 09, 07:41 PM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 14, 11:54 pm, FirstHit > wrote:
> On Aug 14, 10:51 pm, chatnoir > wrote:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> It's quite discouraging that people use the cat colonies as an excuse
> to dump off their unwanted (and probably unneutered) pets.
>
> The video's suggestion to relocate the neutered cats instead of
> returning them sounds like a good idea, but with the overloaded
> shelters it may be easier said than done.
>
> FirstHit

>The shelters are very full now with the economy! So, is the place I
>go to buy pet food! It has lots of kittens on display!

The bird lovers know the answer. Kill all those pesky cats so they can enjoy
their brainless little noisemakers. :)

cybercat
August 15th 09, 07:43 PM
"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>
>> So what is the answer?
>
> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
> individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very overloaded,
> I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human population
> can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
> indiscriminately.
>
> I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but there
> truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
>

Euthanize rather than TNR? Not even.

jmc
August 15th 09, 08:49 PM
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 2:43 PM):
> "jmc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
>>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>> So what is the answer?
>> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
>> individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very overloaded,
>> I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human population
>> can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
>> indiscriminately.
>>
>> I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but there
>> truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
>>
>
> Euthanize rather than TNR? Not even.
>
>

Actually, along with. Euthanasia, I think, is probably a better death
than dying of old age and/or sickness in an overpopulated colony.

I know it's not a popular opinion. I hate that it's necessary, but I'm
a realist. Too many cats, not enough homes, overloaded shelters.

jmc

calvin
August 15th 09, 11:43 PM
On Aug 15, 9:27*am, jmc > wrote:
> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
> individuals. *It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
> overloaded, I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human
> population can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
> indiscriminately.
> I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but there
> truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.

There are things that a rich person like, say, Steven Spielberg
could do. Donate a large tract of land into which neutered and
spayed cats would be set free and given a chance to live, rather
than be euthanized. Make sure that the land has water running
through it, and provide additional food and water at stations
scattered throughout the area of, say, a hundred square miles.
It could be surrounded by a cat proof fence, and maintained by
only a very few people. The grant would also provide for collection
of neutered/spayed cats from shelters and transportation to the
the site.

This would cost very little for something like the Bill and Melinda
Gates Foundation to do. I haven't covered all of the details, but
you can see the general idea. It would only require a moderate
grant from some philanthropic organization to do it.

calvin
August 16th 09, 12:08 AM
On Aug 15, 1:51*am, chatnoir > wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds

It sounds like many of the speakers in this video are
really advocating killing cats, though they aren't coming
right out and saying it. There is very little compassion
for cats expressed here.

FirstHit
August 16th 09, 04:07 AM
On Aug 15, 3:43*pm, calvin > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 9:27*am, jmc > wrote:
>
> > Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
> > individuals. *It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
> > overloaded, I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human
> > population can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
> > indiscriminately.
> > I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but there
> > truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
>
> There are things that a rich person like, say, Steven Spielberg
> could do. *Donate a large tract of land into which neutered and
> spayed cats would be set free and given a chance to live, rather
> than be euthanized. *Make sure that the land has water running
> through it, and provide additional food and water at stations
> scattered throughout the area of, say, a hundred square miles.
> It could be surrounded by a cat proof fence, and maintained by
> only a very few people. *The grant would also provide for collection
> of neutered/spayed cats from shelters and transportation to the
> the site.
>
> This would cost very little for something like the Bill and Melinda
> Gates Foundation to do. *I haven't covered all of the details, but
> you can see the general idea. *It would only require a moderate
> grant from some philanthropic organization to do it.

One thing that has to be done if such a venture is undertaken is to
make it impossible or *very* difficult for humans to dump their
unwanted felines there. Otherwise, you're going to have a population
explosion there.

FirstHit

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 05:49 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...

> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds

Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
"studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
"Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to say.

Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
apart:

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 05:49 AM
"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
> >
...
> >> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
> >
> > So what is the answer?

TNR



> >
> >
>
> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
> individuals.

I'm surprised at you. I thought you had more sense than that. Ferals in
well managed colonies live long and happy & healthy lives. I have >300 cats
in 16 colonies to prove it. And that's just my colonies.

chatnoir
August 16th 09, 08:28 AM
On Aug 15, 9:49*pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> Pure bull****. *The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> "studies" by Temple & Coleman. *Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> just our projection to show how bad it might be." *IOW, their estimates of
> cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. *What's even
> more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to say.
>
> Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> apart:
>
> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html

http://tinyurl.com/mmw7zu

headline:

Cats and wildlife - how you can protect both
LW0025
Stephen Platt, August 1999

To view the Adobe Acrobat file, you will need the Adobe Acrobat
reader. PDF 154 kb

Where is your cat at the moment? Could it be attacking wildlife or
crossing a road? Is it safe from dogs? Is it identified so it can be
returned to you if it gets lost? The information in this Note will
help you to better protect your cat and wildlife.

Background
Cats are present throughout Victoria, as domestic pets, free-living
strays, or as truly feral animals. Estimates in all these categories
suggest that there are well over one million cats in the State.

Cats are obligate carnivores, that is, they must feed on animal
protein. Each cat requires a minimum of 100-150g of protein each day,
more if a female is nursing a litter. This means that an equivalent of
at least seven small mammals, such as native Bush Rats, must be eaten
each week by each cat.

Even cats that are well fed, apparently contented pets, will
instinctively hunt and kill living creatures. An average of 32 wild
animals may be killed by each pet cat every year. Each feral cat can
kill many more. The potential impact on wildlife is enormous.

What impact do cats have on wildlife?
Cats are known to kill and eat more than 100 native Australian species
of birds, 50 mammals, 50 reptiles, three frogs and numerous
invertebrate animals. As more knowledge is obtained more animals
continue to be added to the list.

Cats are a major threat to wildlife in the bush, where they are common
and occur in most habitats, as well as in towns and cities. For
example, in 1992, in response to a plague of native rats in south-west
Queensland, where the endangered native Bilby survives, feral cat
numbers were observed to be at high levels. The Australian Army was
called in to assist with control and, to the amazement of wildlife
managers, shot 417 cats in four days within 20 km of the Bilby site.
Up to six cats were shot out of a single tree in one day! Of interest
is that the high cat numbers were on a cattle station on which dingo
control was rigourous. Neighbouring stations, with more dingos, had
less cats. Cats can survive on water from prey in areas where drinking
water is unavailable.

In Australia, cats (and dogs) have no natural predators. The hunting
methods of cats are different to native predators, such as quolls, and
so native wildlife has few inbuilt defences against cats.

Cats are most active at night, and especially at dusk and dawn. This
coincides with the activity periods of much of our Australian
wildlife, placing native animals at risk.
Cats kill prey of up to their own body size; most of Australia’s
endangered and vulnerable mammals are in this size category.

Cats can significantly control bird populations. Studies in South
Australia indicate that domestic cats probably kill the 'standing
crop' of birds, (i.e. the same number are killed as are produced each
year).

Cats are significant predators on small mammals. In 15 months one
wildlife shelter in Melbourne received 272 native mammals with
injuries that resulted from cat attacks; 242 of these were Common
Ringtail Possums. Almost all died as a result of the attacks.

Cats have also been responsible for the death of at least 25% of all
Sugar Gliders registered in the former Wildlife Management Branch (now
DSE) collection.

Cat’s mouths can carry bacteria to which wildlife has little
resistance, and wildlife that has been injured by cats usually dies -
if not from injuries, then from infection.

Cats are the definitive host of the blood protozoan disease
Toxoplasmosis which can affect wildlife, sheep and humans. It can
cause unco-ordination, blindness, erratic movement and unnatural
daytime activity. Toxoplasmosis is often fatal for infected wildlife.
It can have effects on reproduction (the disease can cause abortion in
sheep and humans). Endangered Eastern Barred Bandicoots are at threat
not only through direct predation by cats but from infection with the
disease. It probably predisposes affected bandicoots to predation by
cats or dogs and to road trauma.

Research into the reintroduction of rare mammals onto mainland
Australia has found that, when foxes are controlled, cat numbers
increase, continuing the attack on native species. Similarly, because
rabbit is a significant part of feral cat diet in many (especially
rural) areas, rabbit control without cat control may lead to increased
predation on wildlife. Hence, an integrated pest animal control
program is essential.

Cats also have an indirect impact on plant pollination by reducing
numbers of native birds.

Although habitat alteration and hunting are also important factors,
cats have been responsible for the extinction of over 30 species of
birds around the world.

Cats have been the cause of decline and extinction of many bird
species on a large number of islands including New Zealand, Macquarie
Island, Socorro Island (Mexico), Ascension Island, the Kermadec group,
Marion Island and many others. There are also records of mammals and
reptiles being similarly affected - for example the endemic rodents of
the Galapagos are now only found on islands without cats, and in
Western Australia at least two species of now-endangered species of
marsupial (Banded Hare-wallaby and Golden Bandicoot) have become
extinct on the Monte Bello Islands due to cats.

Pet cats kill an average of 16 mammals, 8 birds and 8 reptiles every
year. 900 000 pet cats by 32 wildlife each per year = 29 million
wildlife.

Feral cats each need to eat the equivalent of seven native bush rats
or ten native birds each week. 200 000 feral cats by 10 wildlife by 52
weeks = 104 million wildlife.

Stray cats in cities kill on average 5 wildlife each week. 300 000
cats by 5 wildlife by 52 weeks = 78 million wildlife.

GRAND TOTAL = 211 million wildlife killed by cats in Victoria each
year ... (cont)

excerpt:


Cats and wildlife - how you can protect both
LW0025
Stephen Platt, August 1999

To view the Adobe Acrobat file, you will need the Adobe Acrobat
reader. PDF 154 kb

Where is your cat at the moment? Could it be attacking wildlife or
crossing a road? Is it safe from dogs? Is it identified so it can be
returned to you if it gets lost? The information in this Note will
help you to better protect your cat and wildlife.

Background
Cats are present throughout Victoria, as domestic pets, free-living
strays, or as truly feral animals. Estimates in all these categories
suggest that there are well over one million cats in the State.

Cats are obligate carnivores, that is, they must feed on animal
protein. Each cat requires a minimum of 100-150g of protein each day,
more if a female is nursing a litter. This means that an equivalent of
at least seven small mammals, such as native Bush Rats, must be eaten
each week by each cat.

Even cats that are well fed, apparently contented pets, will
instinctively hunt and kill living creatures. An average of 32 wild
animals may be killed by each pet cat every year. Each feral cat can
kill many more. The potential impact on wildlife is enormous.

What impact do cats have on wildlife?
Cats are known to kill and eat more than 100 native Australian species
of birds, 50 mammals, 50 reptiles, three frogs and numerous
invertebrate animals. As more knowledge is obtained more animals
continue to be added to the list.

Cats are a major threat to wildlife in the bush, where they are common
and occur in most habitats, as well as in towns and cities. For
example, in 1992, in response to a plague of native rats in south-west
Queensland, where the endangered native Bilby survives, feral cat
numbers were observed to be at high levels. The Australian Army was
called in to assist with control and, to the amazement of wildlife
managers, shot 417 cats in four days within 20 km of the Bilby site.
Up to six cats were shot out of a single tree in one day! Of interest
is that the high cat numbers were on a cattle station on which dingo
control was rigourous. Neighbouring stations, with more dingos, had
less cats. Cats can survive on water from prey in areas where drinking
water is unavailable.

In Australia, cats (and dogs) have no natural predators. The hunting
methods of cats are different to native predators, such as quolls, and
so native wildlife has few inbuilt defences against cats.

Cats are most active at night, and especially at dusk and dawn. This
coincides with the activity periods of much of our Australian
wildlife, placing native animals at risk.
Cats kill prey of up to their own body size; most of Australia’s
endangered and vulnerable mammals are in this size category.

Cats can significantly control bird populations. Studies in South
Australia indicate that domestic cats probably kill the 'standing
crop' of birds, (i.e. the same number are killed as are produced each
year).

Cats are significant predators on small mammals. In 15 months one
wildlife shelter in Melbourne received 272 native mammals with
injuries that resulted from cat attacks; 242 of these were Common
Ringtail Possums. Almost all died as a result of the attacks.

Cats have also been responsible for the death of at least 25% of all
Sugar Gliders registered in the former Wildlife Management Branch (now
DSE) collection.

Cat’s mouths can carry bacteria to which wildlife has little
resistance, and wildlife that has been injured by cats usually dies -
if not from injuries, then from infection.

Cats are the definitive host of the blood protozoan disease
Toxoplasmosis which can affect wildlife, sheep and humans. It can
cause unco-ordination, blindness, erratic movement and unnatural
daytime activity. Toxoplasmosis is often fatal for infected wildlife.
It can have effects on reproduction (the disease can cause abortion in
sheep and humans). Endangered Eastern Barred Bandicoots are at threat
not only through direct predation by cats but from infection with the
disease. It probably predisposes affected bandicoots to predation by
cats or dogs and to road trauma.

Research into the reintroduction of rare mammals onto mainland
Australia has found that, when foxes are controlled, cat numbers
increase, continuing the attack on native species. Similarly, because
rabbit is a significant part of feral cat diet in many (especially
rural) areas, rabbit control without cat control may lead to increased
predation on wildlife. Hence, an integrated pest animal control
program is essential.

Cats also have an indirect impact on plant pollination by reducing
numbers of native birds.

Although habitat alteration and hunting are also important factors,
cats have been responsible for the extinction of over 30 species of
birds around the world.

Cats have been the cause of decline and extinction of many bird
species on a large number of islands including New Zealand, Macquarie
Island, Socorro Island (Mexico), Ascension Island, the Kermadec group,
Marion Island and many others. There are also records of mammals and
reptiles being similarly affected - for example the endemic rodents of
the Galapagos are now only found on islands without cats, and in
Western Australia at least two species of now-endangered species of
marsupial (Banded Hare-wallaby and Golden Bandicoot) have become
extinct on the Monte Bello Islands due to cats.

Pet cats kill an average of 16 mammals, 8 birds and 8 reptiles every
year. 900 000 pet cats by 32 wildlife each per year = 29 million
wildlife.

Feral cats each need to eat the equivalent of seven native bush rats
or ten native birds each week. 200 000 feral cats by 10 wildlife by 52
weeks = 104 million wildlife.

Stray cats in cities kill on average 5 wildlife each week. 300 000
cats by 5 wildlife by 52 weeks = 78 million wildlife.

GRAND TOTAL = 211 million wildlife killed by cats in Victoria each
year!

On farms
Toxoplasmosis in sheep, spread by cat faeces, can result in abortions,
stillborn lambs, and a reduced lambing percentage. It is the most
common cause of infectious abortions in sheep flocks in south-eastern
Australia. Cats also carry the stock disease Sarcosporidiosis.
Sarcocystis infection can result in carcase condemnation at the
abattoir. Cats spread these diseases by contaminating pasture, hay and
other animal foods with the parasite via their faeces. They in turn
are contaminated by eating rodents, birds and wildlife which contain
cysts of the parasite. Farmers who wish to avoid the risk to livestock
of toxoplasmosis should not let cats near their pastures.

Pet cats - what can I do to protect my cat and wildlife?
Clearly, there is a need to act to reduce the impact of cats on
wildlife and a range of measures are available that can also lead to
safer living conditions for pet cats.

It may seem like a major change to the way you have viewed the life
and entitlements of your pet cat to consider placing restrictions on
it. Improving the care of your cat by limiting its behaviour is
comparable to placing restrictions on children for their safety and to
teach them to live alongside others.

The path to improved cat care can be direct or you may choose to
improve control over time (see How else can I help protect wildlife?).
You may choose not replace your cat when it dies or to change to a
breed more suited to confinement at this time.

Why keep your cat confined?
By keeping your cat confined to your property at all times, and
indoors or in a special enclosure or cattery between dusk and dawn,
you will protect your cat and Victoria’s wildlife better. Confining
your cat will ensure its safety and well-being.

Cats not kept at home can be killed or injured - on roads, in fights,
through disease or by acts of cruelty. They can catch feline AIDS from
stray or feral cats. Wandering cats may mate and produce unwanted
litters and are easily stolen. Why expose your cat to these dangers?

Cats are wonderful companions - they are affectionate and intelligent
and they enjoy your company. Yet, in Melbourne alone, over 45 000 cats
end up in animal shelters each year. Few have identification and only
1% are reclaimed by their owners. Most are humanely euthanased.

Is it cruel to confine my cat?
No - because suburban and rural environments pose too many risks to
allow pet cats complete freedom. The average life span of a cat kept
inside is 12 years. That of a cat allowed to roam at will is just
three years.

If you provide all their needs, desexed cats are happy to live in a
suitable enclosed area. Cats don’t have an ‘innate’ need to roam -
they need exercise and play as well as around 19 hours of sleep each
day.

Many cats become better pets and live long, healthy and contented
lives inside a house or flat, often for 24 hours a day.

How can I confine my cat?
Keep it inside (especially at night). Train your cat by feeding it
inside before dusk and not letting it out before dawn.

Build a cattery
There are a great many options. Free-standing or attached enclosures
can be constructed. Alternatively, use can be made of existing
structures such as the garage or an unused aviary. Commercial cat
enclosures are available. The diagram (above) provides some
suggestions. If you wish to observe a cattery before building, contact
a Land for Wildlife extension officer, local veterinarian or other
contacts listed in this Note to see if they can assist you.

What are my cat’s needs when enclosed?
Overnight - food, water, a litter tray and a warm, dry, draught-free
sleeping area.

For longer periods - facilities for exercise, climbing, several
resting places at various heights, and shelter from wind, sun, rain,
cold and hot weather. A scratching and climbing pole is a must - up to
2.5m tall, with 2-3 perches. Provide cat toys (available at good pet
shops) and help your cat to exercise daily by encouraging it to play,
run and jump. Install window perches for your cat to sunbathe on, or a
cat-door for access to an enclosed area outside.

The RSPCA and Cat Protection Society can provide more advice on
confining your cat.

Why should I desex my cat?
Desexing your cat is one way you can show you care for it and
wildlife. There are numerous benefits including: A desexed pet is
easier to own and care for. Desexed male and female animals are less
stressed by reproductive or territorial demands and make better pets.
Many people say a desexed pet is more pleasurable to own. Cats won’t
wander or fight as much and are less noisy and odourous if desexed.
A desexed pet does not tend to have the occasional unwelcome habits of
entire animals, such as urinating on the carpet in the corner of the
loungeroom.
Desexing is better for your cat's health. Female cats can suffer
physical and nutritional exhaustion if continually breeding.
More desexed cats means fewer unwanted litters of kittens.
Fewer strays also means more protection for humans, other companion
animals, wildlife and the environment.
Uncontrolled breeding results in large numbers of unwanted cats
joining the stray and feral populations. Most suffer through disease
and injury, and many prey on native wildlife to survive.


Are some cat breeds better suited to indoors?
Yes. The good old moggie, and many other long and short-haired breeds,
like the Russian Blue, are happy being indoors at all times.

The 'Selectapet' computer program (03-329 5438 or 008-33 1783) will
help you choose the right cat, as can your local vet or an animal
welfare agency.

What can be done about feral cats?
Cats that belong to someone are legally recognised as chattels. It is
illegal to harm or damage another person's belongings under common
law. Therefore, if you wish to take action against cats on your
property that are presumed feral, you must advise your neighbours in
advance of your intention to control cats so that they can prevent
their cat wandering onto your property. A means of permanently
identifying cats would obviously help solve this problem of ownership
(see page 4). Spotlight shooting or cage trapping, (followed by humane
euthanasia by a veterinarian), are the main methods used to control
feral cats. Pet food can be used as a bait in the cage trap. Research
into baiting techniques is continuing. Cats can legally be controlled
in areas designated under the National Parks Act 1975.

DPI undertakes target-specific control where there is an urgent
problem (e.g. endangered species threatened). Because feral cats are
continually being replenished by lost pets we need to effectively
separate pet populations from unowned cats (by desexing and
identification) to achieve control.

How else can I help protect wildlife?

Put bells on your cat's collar.
One bell is not enough. Put three large bells on the collar, two under
the cat's chin and the other opposite. Bells do not stop cats killing
wildlife - they only make a difference in one out of three attacks.
Keeping your cat inside stops all cat attacks on wildlife.

Use a harness to walk your cat outside.
Training your cat to walk with a cat harness (dog leashes are not
suitable) is fun, easy and rewarding for you and your cat.

Provide cat-free environments.
If your cat uses the backyard because you have a cat-proof fence
around the property, provide cat-free environments by enclosing shrubs
and trees with ‘floppy wire’ fences. This provides a safe haven for
native wildlife and you’ll find that lots of birds use the area,
especially if you include nectar-producing plants and water.

Choose to not replace your cat when it dies.
This is a cheap option but has no effect in the short-term unless
other control measures are adopted.

Spread the message about better care for cats and protection for
wildlife.
Only increasing community awareness through education will change
attitudes toward management of cats. You can play an important role by
spreading the message and discussing the issues. Obtain free pamphlets
or copies of this Note from major DSE/DPI offices....

cybercat
August 16th 09, 09:09 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote

**** off, asshole.

chatnoir
August 16th 09, 09:10 AM
On Aug 15, 9:49*pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> Pure bull****. *The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> "studies" by Temple & Coleman. *Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> just our projection to show how bad it might be." *IOW, their estimates of
> cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. *What's even
> more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to say.
>
> Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> apart:
>
> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html

There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:

http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html

DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT



Carol A. Fiore and Karen Brown Sullivan

2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABSTRACT

To quantify the effects of urban domestic cat predation on birds in
Wichita, Kansas, a city of approximately 300,000 residents, we
collected birds killed by study cats, analyzed fecal material, and
tracked cats using radio collars to estimate mean numbers of birds
killed per cat. A random survey and information from local
veterinarians were used to calculate pet cat density. The results
indicate that the average urban cat in Wichita kills 4.2 birds per
year. Additionally, we found that the majority of cats (83%) kill
birds, and the greatest risk to all birds occurred during the months
of May and June (43%). House Wrens (Troglodytes aedon ) appear to be
at increased risk (9%) when compared with other avian species in the
Wichita area.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given the current climate of increasing concern over declining
songbird populations (Franzreb and Phillips 1995), the need for better
documentation of the impact of domestic cats on birds is warranted.
Much of the information on the hunting abilities of domestic cats
(Felis catus), an introduced predator in the United States, is
anecdotal; few studies have been done to assess the impact that free-
roaming domestic house cats have on native bird populations. The
negative impact of cats on island birds has been well documented
(Fitzgerald and Karl 1979; Ludwig 1994; Turner and Bateson 1988;
Heidemann and Vauk 1970). Since the fauna on most islands did not
evolve in the presence of mammals, many insular birds are ill-equipped
to deal with the predatory domestic cat.

Several different approaches have been taken to determine the relative
contribution of birds to the diet of domestic cats. Hubbs (1951)
examined stomach contents of feral cats and found birds in 74 of 184
stomachs examined; when present, bird remains comprised 25.2% of the
total bulk. Nilsson (1940, cited in Fitzgerald and Karl 1979) recorded
26 birds in the stomachs of 86 house cats in Oregon. Liberg (1984),
using scat analysis to study diets of domestic cats in southern
Sweden, determined that birds were the fourth important prey item
after rabbits, field voles, and hares. All of Liberg’s study cats were
fed by their human caretakers yet continued to hunt prey year round.
Fitzgerald and Karl (1979) examined scat of feral house cats and found
evidence of bird consumption in 12% of cats. Davis (1957) indicated
that 24-25% of scats from study farm cats near Baltimore contained
feathers and argued this estimate is conservative as it did not
reflect the vast quantity of pigeons the study cats were seen to
consume. Patton compiled statistics on prey taken by cats in Australia
by asking owners to fill out questionnaires (Potter 1991). Results
indicated 50 - 60% of cats preyed on birds. Mitchell and Beck (1992)
collected prey items from one rural cat and four urban cats in
Virginia. During the period from January - November 1990, the rural
cat captured 25 birds and the urban cats caught 12. It was noted that
the rural cat preyed almost exclusively on songbirds during the
winter. While much evidence exists to document that cats do prey on
birds, few studies have quantified cats’ impact on wild bird
populations. Those few that have measured impact have concentrated on
rural or village cats. ... (cont)

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 09:35 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
> cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
say.
>
> Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> apart:
>
>> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
>> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html

There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:

http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html

DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT

That's not a scientic, peer-reviewed study, Einstein- its just a paper. The
author used 3 of Temple & Coleman's bull**** papers for their guesstimated
guesstimates of statistics. The authors have no credibility.

Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by removing
slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 09:35 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "chatnoir" > wrote
>
> **** off, asshole.

My sentiments exactly.

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 09:35 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
> cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
say.
>
> Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> apart:
>
>> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html

>headline:


>Cats and wildlife - how you can protect both
> LW0025
>Stephen Platt, August 1999


>Where is your cat at the moment?

News flash: We're talking about *feral* cats, Einstein- not pet cats.

cybercat
August 16th 09, 10:12 AM
"Phil P." > wrote
> Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by removing
> slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!
>

heh

chatnoir
August 16th 09, 12:27 PM
On Aug 16, 1:35*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
> > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
> say.
>
> > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > apart:
>
> >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> >http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
> >headline:
> >Cats and wildlife - how you can protect both
> > LW0025
> >Stephen Platt, August 1999
> >Where is your cat at the moment?
>
> News flash: We're talking about *feral* cats, Einstein- not pet cats.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Seems they would be worse!

chatnoir
August 16th 09, 12:29 PM
On Aug 16, 1:35*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
> > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
> say.
>
> > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > apart:
>
> >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>
> There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
> Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:

>
> http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html
>
> DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT
>
> That's not a scientic, peer-reviewed study, Einstein- its just a paper. *The
> author used 3 of Temple & Coleman's bull**** papers for their guesstimated
> guesstimates of statistics. The authors have no credibility.
>
> Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by removing
> slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That is a stupid statement! Your use of Einstein shows your mentality
and your sources are hardly unbiased!

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 01:52 PM
"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 2:43 PM):
> > "jmc" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
> >>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
> >>>
...
> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
> >>> So what is the answer?
> >> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
> >> individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
overloaded,
> >> I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human population
> >> can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
> >> indiscriminately.
> >>
> >> I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but
there
> >> truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
> >>
> >
> > Euthanize rather than TNR? Not even.
> >
> >
>
> Actually, along with. Euthanasia,

Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
suffering animal.


I think, is probably a better death
> than dying of old age and/or sickness in an overpopulated colony.

What's a better than dying of old age??? That's how I want to go! I think
you need to do a lot more research because you're clearly misinformed. Feral
cats in well managed colonies live long, healthy and happy lives.

Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....

http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm



>
> I know it's not a popular opinion. I hate that it's necessary, but I'm
> a realist.

A realist, huh? You're suggesting killing 100 million feral cats.

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 01:52 PM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 1:35 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates
of
> > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies
that
> > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple &
Coleman's
> > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that
doesn't
> > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
> say.
>
> > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > apart:
>
> >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>
> There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
> Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:

>
> http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html
>
> DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT
>
> That's not a scientic, peer-reviewed study, Einstein- its just a paper.
The
> author used 3 of Temple & Coleman's bull**** papers for their guesstimated
> guesstimates of statistics. The authors have no credibility.
>
> Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by removing
>> slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!- Hide quoted text -
>

>That is a stupid statement!

One stupid statement deserves another, eh Einstein?


>Your use of Einstein shows your mentality

Actually, my use of "Einstein" was sarcastic and referred to your mentality
or more precisely, lack thereof.


> and your sources are hardly unbiased!


At least the author of the paper I cited didn't cite her own bull**** papers
as references. That must have escaped your lightening quick perception, eh
Einstein?

Phil P.
August 16th 09, 01:53 PM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 1:35 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates
of
> > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies
that
> > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple &
Coleman's
> > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that
doesn't
> > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
> say.
>
> > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > apart:
>
> >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> >http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
> >headline:
> >Cats and wildlife - how you can protect both
> > LW0025
> >Stephen Platt, August 1999
> >Where is your cat at the moment?
>
> News flash: We're talking about *feral* cats, Einstein- not pet cats.-
Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> Seems they would be worse!

No, Einstein,- ferals are usually much better hunters than pet cats. <g>
Have you ever seen a cat leap 6 feet straight up and catch a bird in mid
air? I have. It was absolutely magnificent!

Since birdseed is cheaper than cat food, I've been thinking about spreading
birdseed around my colonies instead of putting out cat food. Not only would
I save a fortune, but the cats would have some entertainment with their
dinner and they'd also get some exercise to boot..

calvin
August 16th 09, 02:54 PM
On Aug 16, 8:52*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "jmc" > wrote:
> > Actually, along with. *Euthanasia,
>
> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
> suffering animal.

Thanks for the reminder of the word meaning.

Abortion is killing too, I hope you agree. A cat inside the womb
is just as deserving of life and a home as a cat outside the womb.

calvin
August 16th 09, 03:16 PM
On Aug 16, 8:52*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> ...
> Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....
>
> http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm

Very interesting looking. If you have described your colony
before, here or elsewhere, please post a link. I'm curious
about the boundary. How do you keep the colony cats in
and the unspayed/unneutered cats out? Also, the picture
looks like an ordinary neighborhood street. Are there human
neighbors living within this colony?

Stan Brown
August 16th 09, 06:43 PM
Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:52:26 GMT from Phil P. >:
> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
> suffering animal.

And you think they're not suffering in a crowded kennel with other
animals, some of them sick and all of them anxious and upset? Do you
think a battery chicken is better off continuing that life or being
given a painless death?

As jmc said, it's not a good alternative but it's also not
necessarily the worst.

The SPCA in Tompkins County is a no-kill shelter, but even their
resources are strained to the limit. I can't imagine what conditions
must be like in an urban shelter.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

cybercat
August 16th 09, 07:42 PM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:52:26 GMT from Phil P. >:
>> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
>> suffering animal.
>
> And you think they're not suffering in a crowded kennel with other
> animals, some of them sick and all of them anxious and upset? Do you
> think a battery chicken is better off continuing that life or being
> given a painless death?
>
> As jmc said, it's not a good alternative but it's also not
> necessarily the worst.
>
> The SPCA in Tompkins County is a no-kill shelter, but even their
> resources are strained to the limit. I can't imagine what conditions
> must be like in an urban shelter.
>

The topis is TNR, Stan. This stupid bitch is saying this needs to stop and
the cats must be killed to save the birds. Do you agree with that?

cybercat
August 16th 09, 07:44 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Aug 16, 1:35 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>
>> > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
>> > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in
>> > 1994
>> > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
>> > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that
>> > was
>> > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates
> of
>> > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups-
>> > especially
>> > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies
> that
>> > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's
>> > even
>> > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple &
> Coleman's
>> > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
>> > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that
> doesn't
>> > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
>> say.
>>
>> > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
>> > apart:
>>
>> >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>>
>> >http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>> >headline:
>> >Cats and wildlife - how you can protect both
>> > LW0025
>> >Stephen Platt, August 1999
>> >Where is your cat at the moment?
>>
>> News flash: We're talking about *feral* cats, Einstein- not pet cats.-
> Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>> Seems they would be worse!
>
> No, Einstein,- ferals are usually much better hunters than pet cats. <g>
> Have you ever seen a cat leap 6 feet straight up and catch a bird in mid
> air? I have. It was absolutely magnificent!
>
> Since birdseed is cheaper than cat food, I've been thinking about
> spreading
> birdseed around my colonies instead of putting out cat food. Not only
> would
> I save a fortune, but the cats would have some entertainment with their
> dinner and they'd also get some exercise to boot..
>

heh. Go Phil.

cybercat
August 16th 09, 07:45 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message

Phil, check the posting history for this nutball. Alt.alien.abduction, etc.
I am not kidding. she's in a cat group, but I think maybe she ought to be in
a BIRD group.

jmc
August 16th 09, 11:39 PM
Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/16/2009 12:49 AM):
> "jmc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
>>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>>
> ...
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>> So what is the answer?
>
> TNR
>
>
>
>>>
>> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
>> individuals.
>
> I'm surprised at you. I thought you had more sense than that. Ferals in
> well managed colonies live long and happy & healthy lives. I have >300 cats
> in 16 colonies to prove it. And that's just my colonies.
>
>

I admit, I know nothing about colonies, but my understanding was that
they're suffering the same population explosion as the shelters, etc, as
more and more people are dumping their cats at handy colonies. I'm not
sure how that many cats living in close proximity can stay healthy. I'd
think one person dumping their cat because it was sick could devastate a
colony. I'd be happy to be wrong though.

jmc

jmc
August 16th 09, 11:42 PM
Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/16/2009 8:52 AM):
> "jmc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 2:43 PM):
>>> "jmc" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
>>>>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>>>>
> ...
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>>>> So what is the answer?
>>>> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
>>>> individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
> overloaded,
>>>> I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human population
>>>> can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
>>>> indiscriminately.
>>>>
>>>> I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but
> there
>>>> truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
>>>>
>>> Euthanize rather than TNR? Not even.
>>>
>>>
>> Actually, along with. Euthanasia,
>
> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
> suffering animal.
>
>
> I think, is probably a better death
>> than dying of old age and/or sickness in an overpopulated colony.
>
> What's a better than dying of old age??? That's how I want to go! I think
> you need to do a lot more research because you're clearly misinformed. Feral
> cats in well managed colonies live long, healthy and happy lives.
>
> Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....
>
> http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm
>
>
>
>> I know it's not a popular opinion. I hate that it's necessary, but I'm
>> a realist.
>
> A realist, huh? You're suggesting killing 100 million feral cats.
>
>

Not really, I'm talking about unadoptable pets in shelters, and very old
and sick cats in colonies not committing genocide on colonies. Are you
suggesting perhaps the shelters should send the cats for which they have
no room to colonies?

jmc

jmc
August 16th 09, 11:44 PM
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/16/2009 2:42 PM):
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:52:26 GMT from Phil P. >:
>>> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
>>> suffering animal.
>> And you think they're not suffering in a crowded kennel with other
>> animals, some of them sick and all of them anxious and upset? Do you
>> think a battery chicken is better off continuing that life or being
>> given a painless death?
>>
>> As jmc said, it's not a good alternative but it's also not
>> necessarily the worst.
>>
>> The SPCA in Tompkins County is a no-kill shelter, but even their
>> resources are strained to the limit. I can't imagine what conditions
>> must be like in an urban shelter.
>>
>
> The topis is TNR, Stan. This stupid bitch is saying this needs to stop and
> the cats must be killed to save the birds. Do you agree with that?
>
>

cybercat, ok, enough. I DID NOT SAY THAT! If that's what you read, you
misunderstood. I was talking of overpopulation in shelters, cats that
cannot be adopted from SHELTERS. I mentioned cats in colonies as well,
but I'll take that back because clearly I don't know what I'm talking
about there.

jmc

jmc
August 16th 09, 11:50 PM
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/16/2009 2:42 PM):
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:52:26 GMT from Phil P. >:
>>> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
>>> suffering animal.
>> And you think they're not suffering in a crowded kennel with other
>> animals, some of them sick and all of them anxious and upset? Do you
>> think a battery chicken is better off continuing that life or being
>> given a painless death?
>>
>> As jmc said, it's not a good alternative but it's also not
>> necessarily the worst.
>>
>> The SPCA in Tompkins County is a no-kill shelter, but even their
>> resources are strained to the limit. I can't imagine what conditions
>> must be like in an urban shelter.
>>
>
> The topis is TNR, Stan. This stupid bitch is saying this needs to stop and
> the cats must be killed to save the birds. Do you agree with that?
>
>

I've been posting here for years (I'm Meep's mom), I post one thing that
you don't like and suddenly I'm a stupid bitch?

You really do have a hair trigger. Plenty of folks here, including you,
have said things I disagree with, but I've never once called you, or
anyone else here, names.

As I said in another post, you've misunderstood what I said, but meh.
This is usenet, and unlike some I don't get riled from what some random
person I only know in text says.

Hope your kitties are doing well, and have a nice day.

jmc

chatnoir
August 17th 09, 01:30 AM
On Aug 16, 5:52*am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 16, 1:35 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ....
> > On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> > ....
>
> > > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> > > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> > > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> > > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates
> of
> > > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> > > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies
> that
> > > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> > > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple &
> Coleman's
> > > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> > > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that
> doesn't
> > > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
> > say.
>
> > > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > > apart:
>
> > >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> > >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>
> > There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
> > Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:
>
> >http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html
>
> > DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT
>
> > That's not a scientic, peer-reviewed study, Einstein- its just a paper.
> The
> > author used 3 of Temple & Coleman's bull**** papers for their guesstimated
> > guesstimates of statistics. The authors have no credibility.
>
> > Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by removing
> >> slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!- Hide quoted text -
>
> >That is a stupid statement!
>
> One stupid statement deserves another, eh Einstein?
>
> >Your use of Einstein shows your mentality
>
> Actually, my use of "Einstein" was sarcastic and referred to your mentality
> or more precisely, lack thereof.
>
> > and your sources are hardly unbiased!
>
> At least the author of the paper I cited didn't cite her own bull**** papers
> as references. That must have escaped your lightening quick perception, eh
> Einstein?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I found articles where there were other references

cyberpurrs
August 17th 09, 05:27 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 5:52 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 16, 1:35 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in
> > > 1994
> > > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted
> > > "
> > > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that
> > > was
> > > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates
> of
> > > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups-
> > > especially
> > > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies
> that
> > > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's
> > > even
> > > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple &
> Coleman's
> > > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated
> > > "studies".
> > > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that
> doesn't
> > > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them
> > > to
> > say.
>
> > > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > > apart:
>
> > >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> > >>http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>
> > There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
> > Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:
>
> >http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html
>
> > DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT
>
> > That's not a scientic, peer-reviewed study, Einstein- its just a paper.
> The
> > author used 3 of Temple & Coleman's bull**** papers for their
> > guesstimated
> > guesstimates of statistics. The authors have no credibility.
>
> > Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by
> > removing
> >> slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!- Hide quoted text -
>
> >That is a stupid statement!
>
> One stupid statement deserves another, eh Einstein?
>
> >Your use of Einstein shows your mentality
>
> Actually, my use of "Einstein" was sarcastic and referred to your
> mentality
> or more precisely, lack thereof.
>
> > and your sources are hardly unbiased!
>
> At least the author of the paper I cited didn't cite her own bull****
> papers
> as references. That must have escaped your lightening quick perception, eh
> Einstein?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

>I found articles where there were other references

Die, birds. Die, die, die.

Phil P.
August 17th 09, 07:16 AM
"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/16/2009 8:52 AM):
> > "jmc" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 2:43 PM):
> >>> "jmc" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
> >>>>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
> >>>>>
> >
...
> >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
> >>>>> So what is the answer?
> >>>> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
> >>>> individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
> > overloaded,
> >>>> I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human
population
> >>>> can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
> >>>> indiscriminately.
> >>>>
> >>>> I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but
> > there
> >>>> truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
> >>>>
> >>> Euthanize rather than TNR? Not even.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Actually, along with. Euthanasia,
> >
> > Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
> > suffering animal.
> >
> >
> > I think, is probably a better death
> >> than dying of old age and/or sickness in an overpopulated colony.
> >
> > What's a better than dying of old age??? That's how I want to go! I
think
> > you need to do a lot more research because you're clearly misinformed.
Feral
> > cats in well managed colonies live long, healthy and happy lives.
> >
> > Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >> I know it's not a popular opinion. I hate that it's necessary, but I'm
> >> a realist.
> >
> > A realist, huh? You're suggesting killing 100 million feral cats.
> >
> >
>
> Not really, I'm talking about unadoptable pets in shelters,


No you weren't. You were specifically referring to feral colonies. You said:
"I think, is probably a better death than dying of old age and/or sickness
in an overpopulated colony."

Phil P.
August 17th 09, 07:16 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:52:26 GMT from Phil P. >:
> > Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
> > suffering animal.
>
> And you think they're not suffering in a crowded kennel with other
> animals, some of them sick and all of them anxious and upset?

Yes. I don't think they're suffering in a crowed kennel with other animals.
We don't keep our feral colonies in kennels and I've never heard of a TNR
group that does. The only time our ferals see a cage is when they're
trapped for neutering and return or medical care. The only thing our colony
cats get anxious and upset about is when I'm late feeding them.




Do you
> think a battery chicken is better off continuing that life or being
> given a painless death?

We're talking about *feral cats*, Stan.

Phil P.
August 17th 09, 07:16 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
> cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
say.
>
> Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> apart:
>
> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html

There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:

http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html

DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT



Carol A. Fiore and Karen Brown Sullivan

2000

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

ABSTRACT

To quantify the effects of urban domestic cat predation on birds in
Wichita, Kansas, a city of approximately 300,000 residents, we
collected birds killed by study cats, analyzed fecal material, and
tracked cats using radio collars to estimate mean numbers of birds
killed per cat. A random survey and information from local
veterinarians were used to calculate pet cat density.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Another bull**** "study" with shoddy methodology. These bimbos used the
same shoddy methodology as Temple & Coleman and Churcher & Lawton. They
based their guesstimated numbers of birds killed by cats on the number of
cats in an area estimated by local vets. Of that total guesstimated number
of cats, many are indoor cats, some cats are too old to hunt, some cats are
too young to hunt and some cats just don't hunt birds. IOW, the authors took
the number kills from a small group of cats and multiplied it by the total
number of cats in the area. But the bird groups, especially ABC, eagerly
accept and fund these bogus "studies" because they supports their agenda.

Phil P.
August 17th 09, 07:16 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...

>I found articles where there were other references

Good for you. Now learn how to analyze a study before you blindly parrot
that which you don't understand and make a fool of yourself.

Phil P.
August 17th 09, 07:23 AM
"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/16/2009 12:49 AM):
> > "jmc" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
> >>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
> >>>
> >
...
> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
> >>> So what is the answer?
> >
> > TNR
> >
> >
> >
> >>>
> >> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
> >> individuals.
> >
> > I'm surprised at you. I thought you had more sense than that. Ferals in
> > well managed colonies live long and happy & healthy lives. I have >300
cats
> > in 16 colonies to prove it. And that's just my colonies.
> >
> >
>
> I admit, I know nothing about colonies, but my understanding was that
> they're suffering the same population explosion as the shelters, etc, as
> more and more people are dumping their cats at handy colonies. I'm not
> sure how that many cats living in close proximity can stay healthy. I'd
> think one person dumping their cat because it was sick could devastate a
> colony. I'd be happy to be wrong though.
>

Colony cats don't live in close proximity. They're not fenced in. They
expand their territory as necessary. Some cats do form close groups and hang
out together.

Phil P.
August 17th 09, 07:26 AM
"calvin" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 8:52 am, "Phil P." > wrote:
> ...
> Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....
>
> http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm

>Very interesting looking. If you have described your colony
before, here or elsewhere, please post a link. I'm curious
about the boundary. How do you keep the colony cats in
>and the unspayed/unneutered cats out?

The colonies are managed. New cats are immediately trapped, examined and
treated if neccessary and neutered if necessary.


>Also, the picture
looks like an ordinary neighborhood street. Are there human
>neighbors living within this colony?

That colony is in the back of an industrial park.

chatnoir
August 17th 09, 11:32 AM
On Aug 16, 11:16*pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >I found articles where there were other references
>
> Good for you. Now learn how to analyze a study before you blindly parrot
> that which you don't understand and make a fool of yourself.

I did not blindly parrot anything! Your on the wrong track here!

chatnoir
August 17th 09, 11:35 AM
On Aug 16, 11:16*pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
> > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
> > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
> > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
> > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
> say.
>
> > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > apart:
>
> >http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> >http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>
> There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
> Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html
>
> DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT
>
> Carol A. Fiore and Karen Brown Sullivan
>
> 2000
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> ----
>
> ABSTRACT
>
> To quantify the effects of urban domestic cat predation on birds in
> Wichita, Kansas, a city of approximately 300,000 residents, we
> collected birds killed by study cats, analyzed fecal material, and
> tracked cats using radio collars to estimate mean numbers of birds
> killed per cat. A random survey and information from local
> veterinarians were used to calculate pet cat density.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Another bull**** "study" with shoddy methodology. *These bimbos used the
> same shoddy methodology as Temple & Coleman and Churcher & Lawton. They
> based their guesstimated numbers of birds killed by cats on the number of
> cats in an area estimated by local vets. Of that total guesstimated number
> of cats, many are indoor cats, some cats are too old to hunt, some cats are
> too young to hunt and some cats just don't hunt birds. IOW, the authors took
> the number kills from a small group of cats and multiplied it by the total
> number of cats in the area. But the bird groups, especially ABC, eagerly
> accept and fund these bogus "studies" because they supports their agenda.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You have design and ran a study???? You do work with numbers you can
manage!

jmc
August 17th 09, 04:58 PM
Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/17/2009 2:16 AM):
> "jmc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/16/2009 8:52 AM):
>>> "jmc" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 2:43 PM):
>>>>> "jmc" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
>>>>>>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>
> ...
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>>>>>> So what is the answer?
>>>>>> Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
>>>>>> individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
>>> overloaded,
>>>>>> I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human
> population
>>>>>> can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
>>>>>> indiscriminately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but
>>> there
>>>>>> truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Euthanize rather than TNR? Not even.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Actually, along with. Euthanasia,
>>> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
>>> suffering animal.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think, is probably a better death
>>>> than dying of old age and/or sickness in an overpopulated colony.
>>> What's a better than dying of old age??? That's how I want to go! I
> think
>>> you need to do a lot more research because you're clearly misinformed.
> Feral
>>> cats in well managed colonies live long, healthy and happy lives.
>>>
>>> Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....
>>>
>>> http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I know it's not a popular opinion. I hate that it's necessary, but I'm
>>>> a realist.
>>> A realist, huh? You're suggesting killing 100 million feral cats.
>>>
>>>
>> Not really, I'm talking about unadoptable pets in shelters,
>
>
> No you weren't. You were specifically referring to feral colonies. You said:
> "I think, is probably a better death than dying of old age and/or sickness
> in an overpopulated colony."
>
>
>
>
Yea, in other parts I wasn't, but did you miss the post where I
retracted this because I obviously don't know as much as I thought about
colonies? You responded to everything else...

jmc

dgk
August 18th 09, 03:34 PM
On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 08:35:33 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
>On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>
>> Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
>> "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
>> and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
>> "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
>> just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
>> cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
>> ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
>> have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
>> more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
>> cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
>> That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
>> bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
>say.
>>
>> Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
>> apart:
>>
>>> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>>
>>> http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>
>There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
>Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html
>
>DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT
>
>That's not a scientic, peer-reviewed study, Einstein- its just a paper. The
>author used 3 of Temple & Coleman's bull**** papers for their guesstimated
>guesstimates of statistics. The authors have no credibility.
>
>Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by removing
>slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!
>
>
>
>
Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
one got nailed over the weekend. They are likely the slower, older,
and stupider birds.

On the other hand, I put out maybe 400 pounds of birdseed over each
winter. I also have a heated birdbath. It's great to watch the birds
taking a bath in February.

And while I try to avoid it, sometimes the cats are out while there is
birdseed in the feeders. Very rarely does a bird get killed even then.
They aren't that stupid. It's pretty funny watching Espy trying to
hide under an Azalea that has no leaves.

The main cause of loss of wildlife is us. There are too many people on
the earth and we're destroying the habitat of all other creatures.
Unless people are willing to enforce the China policy of one child per
family, shut the **** up about cats killing birds. "Be Fruitfull And
Multiply" is the cause of the death of birds. I suggest banning stupid
religions.

calvin
August 18th 09, 03:42 PM
On Aug 18, 10:34*am, dgk > wrote:
> Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
> one got nailed over the weekend. ...

With my cats, it has always been when they were young
that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
stalk these creatures has declined considerably.

jmc
August 18th 09, 09:59 PM
Suddenly, without warning, calvin exclaimed (8/18/2009 10:42 AM):
> On Aug 18, 10:34 am, dgk > wrote:
>> Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
>> one got nailed over the weekend. ...
>
> With my cats, it has always been when they were young
> that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
> After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
> stalk these creatures has declined considerably.

Lol, the birds around here have Meep's number, for sure. Due to issues
with her hind legs, she can't really jump. Birds have figured this out,
and will feed - albeit nervously - even with her right below the feeder,
a mere 4' from their feet.

Even the hummer was chasing honeybees while completely ignoring the
sleek black predator stretched out below, watching her.

In a past location, some birds would even walk up to our glass doors to
harass Meep through the glass, and had even been known to chase her inside.

Not all cats are Dangerous Hunters :)

jmc

chatnoir
August 18th 09, 10:06 PM
On Aug 18, 1:59*pm, jmc > wrote:
> Suddenly, without warning, calvin exclaimed (8/18/2009 10:42 AM):
>
> > On Aug 18, 10:34 am, dgk > wrote:
> >> Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
> >> one got nailed over the weekend. ...
>
> > With my cats, it has always been when they were young
> > that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
> > After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
> > stalk these creatures has declined considerably.
>
> Lol, the birds around here have Meep's number, for sure. *Due to issues
> with her hind legs, she can't really jump. *Birds have figured this out,
> and will feed - albeit nervously - even with her right below the feeder,
> a mere 4' from their feet.
>
> Even the hummer was chasing honeybees while completely ignoring the
> sleek black predator stretched out below, watching her.
>
> In a past location, some birds would even walk up to our glass doors to
> harass Meep through the glass, and had even been known to chase her inside.
>
> Not all cats are Dangerous Hunters :)
>
> jmc

I keep my cats caged!

calvin
August 18th 09, 10:13 PM
On Aug 18, 5:06*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
> I keep my cats caged!

Sounds like animal abuse.
How big are the cages? How many cats do you have?
How many are in each cage? How often do you let them out?
Why do you have cats when you treat them this way?

cybercat
August 19th 09, 05:16 AM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 18, 1:59 pm, jmc > wrote:
> Suddenly, without warning, calvin exclaimed (8/18/2009 10:42 AM):
>
> > On Aug 18, 10:34 am, dgk > wrote:
> >> Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
> >> one got nailed over the weekend. ...
>
> > With my cats, it has always been when they were young
> > that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
> > After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
> > stalk these creatures has declined considerably.
>
> Lol, the birds around here have Meep's number, for sure. Due to issues
> with her hind legs, she can't really jump. Birds have figured this out,
> and will feed - albeit nervously - even with her right below the feeder,
> a mere 4' from their feet.
>
> Even the hummer was chasing honeybees while completely ignoring the
> sleek black predator stretched out below, watching her.
>
> In a past location, some birds would even walk up to our glass doors to
> harass Meep through the glass, and had even been known to chase her
> inside.
>
> Not all cats are Dangerous Hunters :)
>
> jmc

>I keep my cats caged!

Take them to a shelter, you insipid moron.

chatnoir
August 19th 09, 10:54 AM
On Aug 18, 9:16*pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 18, 1:59 pm, jmc > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Suddenly, without warning, calvin exclaimed (8/18/2009 10:42 AM):
>
> > > On Aug 18, 10:34 am, dgk > wrote:
> > >> Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
> > >> one got nailed over the weekend. ...
>
> > > With my cats, it has always been when they were young
> > > that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
> > > After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
> > > stalk these creatures has declined considerably.
>
> > Lol, the birds around here have Meep's number, for sure. Due to issues
> > with her hind legs, she can't really jump. Birds have figured this out,
> > and will feed - albeit nervously - even with her right below the feeder,
> > a mere 4' from their feet.
>
> > Even the hummer was chasing honeybees while completely ignoring the
> > sleek black predator stretched out below, watching her.
>
> > In a past location, some birds would even walk up to our glass doors to
> > harass Meep through the glass, and had even been known to chase her
> > inside.
>
> > Not all cats are Dangerous Hunters :)
>
> > jmc
> >I keep my cats caged!
>
> Take them to a shelter, you insipid moron.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Better treated than lose cats

chatnoir
August 19th 09, 10:56 AM
On Aug 18, 2:13*pm, calvin > wrote:
> On Aug 18, 5:06*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
>
> > I keep my cats caged!
>
> Sounds like animal abuse.

You sound like abuse - hope you don't have kids also!

> How big are the cages? *How many cats do you have?

5 cats - 15 feet by 36 feet - more than they gets at shelters

> How many are in each cage? *How often do you let them out?

they run the house and the outside cage!

> Why do you have cats when you treat them this way?

Better than you treat them - I value my cats!

dgk
August 19th 09, 01:34 PM
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 02:56:39 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
> wrote:

>On Aug 18, 2:13*pm, calvin > wrote:
>> On Aug 18, 5:06*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
>>
>> > I keep my cats caged!
>>
>> Sounds like animal abuse.
>
>You sound like abuse - hope you don't have kids also!
>
>> How big are the cages? *How many cats do you have?
>
>5 cats - 15 feet by 36 feet - more than they gets at shelters
>
>> How many are in each cage? *How often do you let them out?
>
>they run the house and the outside cage!
>
>> Why do you have cats when you treat them this way?
>
>Better than you treat them - I value my cats!


You mean you let them outside but keep them in a big cage outside?
That makes sense. Essentially I do the same thing. My backyard is a
big cage for them. Of course, it's a cage that has no top so the birds
do stop by.

calvin
August 19th 09, 02:09 PM
On Aug 19, 5:56*am, chatnoir > wrote:
> On Aug 18, 2:13*pm, calvin > wrote:
> > How big are the cages? *How many cats do you have?
>
> 5 cats - 15 feet by 36 feet - more than they gets at shelters
>
> > How many are in each cage? *How often do you let them out?
>
> they run the house and the outside cage!

That's different. You didn't say they were loose in the
house. You said you kept your cats caged. If you had
said it right, then it wouldn't have sounded like abuse.

cybercat
August 19th 09, 07:21 PM
"dgk" > wrote i:
>
>
> You mean you let them outside but keep them in a big cage outside?
> That makes sense. Essentially I do the same thing. My backyard is a
> big cage for them. Of course, it's a cage that has no top so the birds
> do stop by.

come on, come clean, you have posted that your cats regularly snack on
cardinals. hahaha!

Phil P.
August 19th 09, 07:37 PM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 11:16 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
> > Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
> > "studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
> > and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
> > "Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
> > just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates
of
> > cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
> > ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies
that
> > have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
> > more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple &
Coleman's
> > cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
> > That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that
doesn't
> > bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
> say.
>
> > Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
> > apart:
>
> >http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/wisconsin_study.html
>
> >http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html
>
> There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
> Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html
>
> DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT
>
> Carol A. Fiore and Karen Brown Sullivan
>
> 2000
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-*-
> ----
>
> ABSTRACT
>
> To quantify the effects of urban domestic cat predation on birds in
> Wichita, Kansas, a city of approximately 300,000 residents, we
> collected birds killed by study cats, analyzed fecal material, and
> tracked cats using radio collars to estimate mean numbers of birds
> killed per cat. A random survey and information from local
> veterinarians were used to calculate pet cat density.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Another bull**** "study" with shoddy methodology. These bimbos used the
> same shoddy methodology as Temple & Coleman and Churcher & Lawton. They
> based their guesstimated numbers of birds killed by cats on the number of
> cats in an area estimated by local vets. Of that total guesstimated number
> of cats, many are indoor cats, some cats are too old to hunt, some cats
are
> too young to hunt and some cats just don't hunt birds. IOW, the authors
took
> the number kills from a small group of cats and multiplied it by the total
>> number of cats in the area. But the bird groups, especially ABC, eagerly
>> accept and fund these bogus "studies" because they supports their
agenda.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

>You have design and ran a study???? You do work with numbers you can
>manage!

You're not getting this, are you, Einstein? The number of kills in the
"study" is bogus because the authors ASSumed *all* the cats in the area hunt
and kill the same average number of birds as the cats in the "study" even
though many of the cats in the area are indoor only or too old or too young
to hunt or simply just don't hunt birds. IOW, the authors' shoddy data
doesn't support their conclusions. Now do you understand why the study is
bogus?

Phil P.
August 19th 09, 07:37 PM
"chatnoir" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 11:16 pm, "Phil P." > wrote:
> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >I found articles where there were other references
>
>> Good for you. Now learn how to analyze a study before you blindly parrot
>> that which you don't understand and make a fool of yourself.

>I did not blindly parrot anything!

Really? That's even worse. Then you're willfully and knowingly posting
bogus "studies" whose methodology is obviously shoddy just to promote your
own aggenda.

Either way, you're a dolt.

kraut3852
August 19th 09, 07:49 PM
>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>
>> So what is the answer?
>>
>>
>
>Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
>individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
>overloaded, I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human
>population can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
>indiscriminately.
>
>I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but there
>truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.
>
>jmc


Do you hunt and kill aniamls??

Maybe we should "Euthanize" you. You kill to eat what you kill
hopefully and as a rule so do cats.

So why "Euthanize" them and not you!?!?!

kraut3852
August 19th 09, 07:53 PM
>> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
>> suffering animal.
>
>Thanks for the reminder of the word meaning.
>
>Abortion is killing too, I hope you agree. A cat inside the womb
>is just as deserving of life and a home as a cat outside the womb.


This is off topic but most people may not realize if you take a cat to
be "fixed" and it is pregnant the fetuses (Or whatever they are
called) are aborted and thrown aside no matter how far along they are.

kraut3852
August 19th 09, 08:02 PM
>>> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
>>> suffering animal.
>>
>> And you think they're not suffering in a crowded kennel with other
>> animals, some of them sick and all of them anxious and upset? Do you
>> think a battery chicken is better off continuing that life or being
>> given a painless death?
>>
>> As jmc said, it's not a good alternative but it's also not
>> necessarily the worst.
>>
>> The SPCA in Tompkins County is a no-kill shelter, but even their
>> resources are strained to the limit. I can't imagine what conditions
>> must be like in an urban shelter.
>>
>
>The topis is TNR, Stan. This stupid bitch is saying this needs to stop and
>the cats must be killed to save the birds. Do you agree with that?
>


And I have seen stray cats killed by dogs. Does that mean we kill all
the dogs out there?!?!

Or what about birds that kill bugs and worms and eat them? Does that
mean we kill all birds??

Get real people!!! Everything in the wild kills to eat and live. If
we got rid of eerything that killed other things we would be killing
everything including people that killed animals or fish to live!!!

cybercat
August 19th 09, 08:23 PM
"kraut3852" > wrote in message
...
>
>>> Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
>>> suffering animal.
>>
>>Thanks for the reminder of the word meaning.
>>
>>Abortion is killing too, I hope you agree. A cat inside the womb
>>is just as deserving of life and a home as a cat outside the womb.
>
>
> This is off topic but most people may not realize if you take a cat to
> be "fixed" and it is pregnant the fetuses (Or whatever they are
> called) are aborted and thrown aside no matter how far along they are.
>
>
As well they should be.

calvin
August 19th 09, 09:10 PM
On Aug 19, 3:23*pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
> kraut3852 wrote:
> > calvin wrote:
> > > Abortion is killing too, I hope you agree. *A cat inside the womb
> > > is just as deserving of life and a home as a cat outside the womb.

> > This is off topic but most people may not realize if you take a cat to
> > be "fixed" and it is pregnant the fetuses (Or whatever they are
> > called) are aborted and thrown aside no matter how far along they are.
>
> As well they should be.

As well they should NOT be. If they are viable, ie. can survive
with their mother's nursing, then the spaying should be
postponed until after the kittens are born, and have been
weaned at the proper time. The vet should be able to tell
roughly how near the birth is. My vet said he will not perform
late-term spay/abortions, but unfortunately some vets will.

Again, a viable cat inside the womb is no less deserving
of life and a home (and love) than a cat outside the womb.

Also, a mother cat, whose mothering instincts are becoming
in force as birth nears, does not deserve the butchery of
an abortion/spaying at that time.

calvin
August 19th 09, 09:13 PM
On Aug 19, 2:53*pm, kraut3852 > wrote:
> This is off topic but most people may not realize if you take a cat to
> be "fixed" and it is pregnant the fetuses (Or whatever they are
> called) are aborted and thrown aside no matter how far along they are.

Most people don't realize much of anything, but a vet
knows when a pregnant cat is nearing full term, and
he/she can refuse to do a late-term spay/abortion.

chatnoir
August 19th 09, 09:20 PM
On Aug 19, 6:34*am, dgk > wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 02:56:39 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Aug 18, 2:13*pm, calvin > wrote:
> >> On Aug 18, 5:06*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
>
> >> > I keep my cats caged!
>
> >> Sounds like animal abuse.
>
> >You sound like abuse - hope you don't have kids also!
>
> >> How big are the cages? *How many cats do you have?
>
> >5 cats - 15 feet by 36 feet - more than they gets at shelters
>
> >> How many are in each cage? *How often do you let them out?
>
> >they run the house and the outside cage!
>
> >> Why do you have cats when you treat them this way?
>
> >Better than you treat them - I value my cats!
>
> You mean you let them outside but keep them in a big cage outside?
> That makes sense. Essentially I do the same thing. My backyard is a
> big cage for them. Of course, it's a cage that has no top so the birds
> do stop by.

It is attached to my house! The cats decide when to go out and when
to go in!

jmc
August 19th 09, 10:05 PM
Suddenly, without warning, chatnoir exclaimed (8/19/2009 5:54 AM):
> On Aug 18, 9:16 pm, "cybercat" > wrote:
>> "chatnoir" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> On Aug 18, 1:59 pm, jmc > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Suddenly, without warning, calvin exclaimed (8/18/2009 10:42 AM):
>>>> On Aug 18, 10:34 am, dgk > wrote:
>>>>> Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
>>>>> one got nailed over the weekend. ...
>>>> With my cats, it has always been when they were young
>>>> that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
>>>> After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
>>>> stalk these creatures has declined considerably.
>>> Lol, the birds around here have Meep's number, for sure. Due to issues
>>> with her hind legs, she can't really jump. Birds have figured this out,
>>> and will feed - albeit nervously - even with her right below the feeder,
>>> a mere 4' from their feet.
>>> Even the hummer was chasing honeybees while completely ignoring the
>>> sleek black predator stretched out below, watching her.
>>> In a past location, some birds would even walk up to our glass doors to
>>> harass Meep through the glass, and had even been known to chase her
>>> inside.
>>> Not all cats are Dangerous Hunters :)
>>> jmc
>>> I keep my cats caged!
>> Take them to a shelter, you insipid moron.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Better treated than lose cats


Just to be clear, she's not loose. She's on our deck, under
supervision. Meep is an indoor kitty.

jmc

Stan Brown
August 20th 09, 03:12 AM
Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:49:53 -0400 from kraut3852 >:
> You kill to eat what you kill
> hopefully and as a rule so do cats.

Nonsense. Non-feral cats, at least, quite often kill for sport
because they're already well fed.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

dgk
August 20th 09, 02:05 PM
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:21:52 -0400, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"dgk" > wrote i:
>>
>>
>> You mean you let them outside but keep them in a big cage outside?
>> That makes sense. Essentially I do the same thing. My backyard is a
>> big cage for them. Of course, it's a cage that has no top so the birds
>> do stop by.
>
>come on, come clean, you have posted that your cats regularly snack on
>cardinals. hahaha!
>

I do feel bad about the one cardinal that got chilled. Total number of
bird kills by all of my cats is somewhere around 10. One cardinal,
nine plain brown ones. Actually, I feel badly about all of them. Just
not badly enough to deny my cats a reasonably safe outdoor room.

Outside of man, cats are the only animal I can think of that does seem
to kill for fun.

I didn't even know that Epsy had killed one over the weekend. He was
inside, hanging out in large paper bag. It wasn't until the
Significant Other went to put away the bag that the deceased bird was
observed - and loudly reported on.

dgk
August 20th 09, 02:06 PM
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 13:20:53 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
> wrote:

>On Aug 19, 6:34*am, dgk > wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 02:56:39 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>> >On Aug 18, 2:13*pm, calvin > wrote:
>> >> On Aug 18, 5:06*pm, chatnoir > wrote:
>>
>> >> > I keep my cats caged!
>>
>> >> Sounds like animal abuse.
>>
>> >You sound like abuse - hope you don't have kids also!
>>
>> >> How big are the cages? *How many cats do you have?
>>
>> >5 cats - 15 feet by 36 feet - more than they gets at shelters
>>
>> >> How many are in each cage? *How often do you let them out?
>>
>> >they run the house and the outside cage!
>>
>> >> Why do you have cats when you treat them this way?
>>
>> >Better than you treat them - I value my cats!
>>
>> You mean you let them outside but keep them in a big cage outside?
>> That makes sense. Essentially I do the same thing. My backyard is a
>> big cage for them. Of course, it's a cage that has no top so the birds
>> do stop by.
>
>It is attached to my house! The cats decide when to go out and when
>to go in!

That is a great idea. Any pictures?

No Name
September 29th 09, 06:18 PM
Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....

http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm


Congratulations that big tabby with the lions mane!!! What a splendid cat!!!

Netmask[_2_]
September 29th 09, 10:47 PM
chatnoir wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds


Simple just make it law to register a cat or dog and you can't register
unless the cat or dog is desexed - if you don't the council willvisit
your house and take your animal compulsorily and do it anyway and
charge you against your council rates. The law should also take away
your right to legal recourse or to sue anyone or to slow up or stop the
process. Simple we need more bossy authorities to put a stop to bogans
who bleat civil rights and do nothing.

If you are a registered breeder then it doesn't apply.

Dragoman
September 29th 09, 11:49 PM
Netmask wrote:
> chatnoir wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>
>
> Simple just make it law to register a cat or dog and you can't register
> unless the cat or dog is desexed - if you don't the council will visit
> your house and take your animal compulsorily and do it anyway and
> charge you against your council rates. The law should also take away
> your right to legal recourse or to sue anyone or to slow up or stop the
> process. Simple we need more bossy authorities to put a stop to bogans
> who bleat civil rights and do nothing.
>
> If you are a registered breeder then it doesn't apply.


Good. So let's start with people while we're at it. One can't get a
driver's license, or get an identity number, or be a legal person,
unless one is desexed. Unless one is registered as a breeder, of course.
Taking the breeder tests (where no more than 10% pass) will happen at
the end of high school; if you can't graduate from high school then of
course you don't get to take the tests and eventually be a breeder.
Illegal sexed persons without breeder status will be trapped, neutered
and released on sight. If they had had illegal offspring, they will be
immediately terminated, and the offspring trapped, neutered and released.

What say you? ;)

jmc
September 30th 09, 03:30 AM
Suddenly, without warning, Dragoman exclaimed (9/29/2009 6:49 PM):
> Netmask wrote:
>> chatnoir wrote:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>
>>
>> Simple just make it law to register a cat or dog and you can't
>> register unless the cat or dog is desexed - if you don't the council
>> will visit your house and take your animal compulsorily and do it
>> anyway and charge you against your council rates. The law should also
>> take away your right to legal recourse or to sue anyone or to slow up
>> or stop the process. Simple we need more bossy authorities to put a
>> stop to bogans who bleat civil rights and do nothing.
>>
>> If you are a registered breeder then it doesn't apply.
>
>
> Good. So let's start with people while we're at it. One can't get a
> driver's license, or get an identity number, or be a legal person,
> unless one is desexed. Unless one is registered as a breeder, of course.
> Taking the breeder tests (where no more than 10% pass) will happen at
> the end of high school; if you can't graduate from high school then of
> course you don't get to take the tests and eventually be a breeder.
> Illegal sexed persons without breeder status will be trapped, neutered
> and released on sight. If they had had illegal offspring, they will be
> immediately terminated, and the offspring trapped, neutered and released.
>
> What say you? ;)

Works for me. I don't need to be trapped and desexed though, chose at
an early age to not reproduce. There's genetics in my family I'd rather
not pass on.

jmc

Netmask[_2_]
September 30th 09, 04:56 AM
Dragoman wrote:
> Netmask wrote:
>> chatnoir wrote:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>
>>
>> Simple just make it law to register a cat or dog and you can't
>> register unless the cat or dog is desexed - if you don't the council
>> will visit your house and take your animal compulsorily and do it
>> anyway and charge you against your council rates. The law should also
>> take away your right to legal recourse or to sue anyone or to slow up
>> or stop the process. Simple we need more bossy authorities to put a
>> stop to bogans who bleat civil rights and do nothing.
>>
>> If you are a registered breeder then it doesn't apply.
>
>
> Good. So let's start with people while we're at it. One can't get a
> driver's license, or get an identity number, or be a legal person,
> unless one is desexed. Unless one is registered as a breeder, of course.
> Taking the breeder tests (where no more than 10% pass) will happen at
> the end of high school; if you can't graduate from high school then of
> course you don't get to take the tests and eventually be a breeder.
> Illegal sexed persons without breeder status will be trapped, neutered
> and released on sight. If they had had illegal offspring, they will be
> immediately terminated, and the offspring trapped, neutered and released.
>
> What say you? ;)


No lets not speak off topic - we are only talking about domestic home
based pets - there is no need to draw long paranoid bows in order to
extend a proposal from "apples to pears" A law can be framed that no
precedence can be drawn from it or extended beyond the scope of the
original law. It's all in the framing, intent and the scope of the law.
Don't know about the USA but laws are often written in that format in
Oz. Besides our judges wouldn't go beyond the scope of the law anyway.

There was a criminal case recently that had certain controversial
elements and the judge bringing down his verdict specifically spelled
out that the judgment could not be used as a precedence for any other
matter - end of story.

So DON'T PANIC

Dragoman
September 30th 09, 05:30 AM
Netmask wrote:
> Dragoman wrote:
>> Netmask wrote:
>>> chatnoir wrote:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>>
>>>
>>> Simple just make it law to register a cat or dog and you can't
>>> register unless the cat or dog is desexed - if you don't the council
>>> will visit your house and take your animal compulsorily and do it
>>> anyway and charge you against your council rates. The law should also
>>> take away your right to legal recourse or to sue anyone or to slow up
>>> or stop the process. Simple we need more bossy authorities to put a
>>> stop to bogans who bleat civil rights and do nothing.
>>>
>>> If you are a registered breeder then it doesn't apply.
>>
>>
>> Good. So let's start with people while we're at it. One can't get a
>> driver's license, or get an identity number, or be a legal person,
>> unless one is desexed. Unless one is registered as a breeder, of
>> course. Taking the breeder tests (where no more than 10% pass) will
>> happen at the end of high school; if you can't graduate from high
>> school then of course you don't get to take the tests and eventually
>> be a breeder. Illegal sexed persons without breeder status will be
>> trapped, neutered and released on sight. If they had had illegal
>> offspring, they will be immediately terminated, and the offspring
>> trapped, neutered and released.
>>
>> What say you? ;)
>
>
> No lets not speak off topic - we are only talking about domestic home
> based pets - there is no need to draw long paranoid bows in order to
> extend a proposal from "apples to pears" A law can be framed that no
> precedence can be drawn from it or extended beyond the scope of the
> original law. It's all in the framing, intent and the scope of the law.
> Don't know about the USA but laws are often written in that format in
> Oz. Besides our judges wouldn't go beyond the scope of the law anyway.
>
> There was a criminal case recently that had certain controversial
> elements and the judge bringing down his verdict specifically spelled
> out that the judgment could not be used as a precedence for any other
> matter - end of story.
>
> So DON'T PANIC


So are you saying that it's just A Modest Proposal? Or that it's Mostly
Harmless? :)

Netmask[_2_]
September 30th 09, 08:37 AM
Dragoman wrote:
> Netmask wrote:
>> Dragoman wrote:
>>> Netmask wrote:
>>>> chatnoir wrote:
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Simple just make it law to register a cat or dog and you can't
>>>> register unless the cat or dog is desexed - if you don't the council
>>>> will visit your house and take your animal compulsorily and do it
>>>> anyway and charge you against your council rates. The law should
>>>> also take away your right to legal recourse or to sue anyone or to
>>>> slow up or stop the process. Simple we need more bossy authorities
>>>> to put a stop to bogans who bleat civil rights and do nothing.
>>>>
>>>> If you are a registered breeder then it doesn't apply.
>>>
>>>
>>> Good. So let's start with people while we're at it. One can't get a
>>> driver's license, or get an identity number, or be a legal person,
>>> unless one is desexed. Unless one is registered as a breeder, of
>>> course. Taking the breeder tests (where no more than 10% pass) will
>>> happen at the end of high school; if you can't graduate from high
>>> school then of course you don't get to take the tests and eventually
>>> be a breeder. Illegal sexed persons without breeder status will be
>>> trapped, neutered and released on sight. If they had had illegal
>>> offspring, they will be immediately terminated, and the offspring
>>> trapped, neutered and released.
>>>
>>> What say you? ;)
>>
>>
>> No lets not speak off topic - we are only talking about domestic home
>> based pets - there is no need to draw long paranoid bows in order to
>> extend a proposal from "apples to pears" A law can be framed that no
>> precedence can be drawn from it or extended beyond the scope of the
>> original law. It's all in the framing, intent and the scope of the
>> law. Don't know about the USA but laws are often written in that
>> format in Oz. Besides our judges wouldn't go beyond the scope of the
>> law anyway.
>>
>> There was a criminal case recently that had certain controversial
>> elements and the judge bringing down his verdict specifically spelled
>> out that the judgment could not be used as a precedence for any other
>> matter - end of story.
>>
>> So DON'T PANIC
>
>
> So are you saying that it's just A Modest Proposal? Or that it's Mostly
> Harmless? :)

Freedom as enjoyed in most democracies comes with a set of
responsibilities and a balance between unfettered survivelists style
"I'll do what I like" (these people probable as children didn't have
parents that defined their limits nor adequate potty training and have
never really grown up) and reasonable behavior. So some things are
compulsory like road laws and the like that infringements can result in
the death and therefore the abridgment of their rights.

So I regard the compulsory desexing of domestic pets that have not been
registered for breeding as Mostly Harmless and a very Modest Proposal.
Maybe we could ask the Vogans to do the dirty dead, in triplicate of
course....