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Kelly Green[_3_]
December 15th 09, 06:36 AM
Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats? Spirit
will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a male with
endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd never adopt
another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself probably keeping
Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow. What is the recommended
diet these days to help prevent his painful condition? I know the vet I
worked for in the 70s believed it was due to poor diet and secondarily by
the castration itself causing the urethra to shrink and narrow. Any ideas?
Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want Spirit suffering like that cat did
for years.

---MIKE---
December 15th 09, 01:40 PM
Feed him a good quality canned food diet. The extra water in the canned
food helps to dilute the urine and prevent crystals from forming. I
even add a little water to the canned food.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

dgk
December 15th 09, 03:55 PM
On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:36:48 -0600, "Kelly Green" >
wrote:

>Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats? Spirit
>will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a male with
>endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd never adopt
>another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself probably keeping
>Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow. What is the recommended
>diet these days to help prevent his painful condition? I know the vet I
>worked for in the 70s believed it was due to poor diet and secondarily by
>the castration itself causing the urethra to shrink and narrow. Any ideas?
>Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want Spirit suffering like that cat did
>for years.


I've had six or seven fixed male cats during the last 25 years and
only one of them had that problem:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-feline-urinary-blockage.htm

The vet didn't prescribe a special diet for Espy after it happened,
but I was at the local pet store and found this

http://www.petco.com/product/105817/Pro-Plan-Adult-Urinary-Tract-Health-Canned-Cat-Food.aspx

Oddly, my three cats all really like it so I asked the vet and he said
that it was fine for them and might even help.

I've very attuned to the problem (see the posting about litterboxes
today) and have a surveilance camera over the Litter Robot so I can be
sure that Epsy goes regularly. If a day goes by and I don't see that
he went I pay real close attention. Sometimes they go out in the
backyard though so I cut him a bit of slack on those days. He will pee
outside if fthe urge strikes.

Kelly Greene
December 15th 09, 07:07 PM
"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Feed him a good quality canned food diet. The extra water in the canned
food helps to dilute the urine and prevent crystals from forming. I
even add a little water to the canned food.


Yes I can do that. Would warm milk work also if he's not lactose intolerant?


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Kelly Greene
December 15th 09, 07:25 PM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:36:48 -0600, "Kelly Green" >
> wrote:
>
>>Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats?
>>Spirit
>>will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a male
>>with
>>endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd never adopt
>>another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself probably keeping
>>Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow. What is the
>>recommended
>>diet these days to help prevent his painful condition? I know the vet I
>>worked for in the 70s believed it was due to poor diet and secondarily by
>>the castration itself causing the urethra to shrink and narrow. Any ideas?
>>Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want Spirit suffering like that cat did
>>for years.
>
>
> I've had six or seven fixed male cats during the last 25 years and
> only one of them had that problem:
>
> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-feline-urinary-blockage.htm
>
> The vet didn't prescribe a special diet for Espy after it happened,
> but I was at the local pet store and found this
>
> http://www.petco.com/product/105817/Pro-Plan-Adult-Urinary-Tract-Health-Canned-Cat-Food.aspx
>
> Oddly, my three cats all really like it so I asked the vet and he said
> that it was fine for them and might even help.
>
> I've very attuned to the problem (see the posting about litterboxes
> today) and have a surveilance camera over the Litter Robot so I can be
> sure that Epsy goes regularly. If a day goes by and I don't see that
> he went I pay real close attention. Sometimes they go out in the
> backyard though so I cut him a bit of slack on those days. He will pee
> outside if fthe urge strikes.

Thank you for this information. I have both sites open on MozillaFF and
will read them to the end as soon as I finish this group. I remember there
was a small pill I had to give my cat back then to keep his urine more acid.
He fought tooth and nail when pilled. :( The little pill helped but he
had problems all his life. They didn't know as much about cat nutrition and
diet related problems than as they do now.

I've been reading on feeding more of a raw diet. What do you think of that?
Getting a balanced diet into them using raw meat would be my main concern.

Jean B.
December 15th 09, 08:09 PM
Kelly Green wrote:
> Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats?
> Spirit will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had
> a male with endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd
> never adopt another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself
> probably keeping Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow.
> What is the recommended diet these days to help prevent his painful
> condition? I know the vet I worked for in the 70s believed it was due to
> poor diet and secondarily by the castration itself causing the urethra
> to shrink and narrow. Any ideas? Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want
> Spirit suffering like that cat did for years.

Yes. Canned food. Preferably without a lot of stuff added that
looks good to humans but is not part of a cat's normal diet.
Also, if you don't already have a water fountain, think about
one--and about putting water at various locations throughout your
abode.

--
Jean B.

Jean B.
December 15th 09, 08:11 PM
Kelly Greene wrote:
>
> "---MIKE---" > wrote in message
> ...
> Feed him a good quality canned food diet. The extra water in the canned
> food helps to dilute the urine and prevent crystals from forming. I
> even add a little water to the canned food.
>
>
> Yes I can do that. Would warm milk work also if he's not lactose
> intolerant?
>

You could use Lactaid. Seems to me that milk was forbidden for
cats who have this problem (not that yours does yet_. I'd like to
heat whether that is the case.


--
Jean B.

Rene
December 15th 09, 10:12 PM
..
>
> I've been reading on feeding more of a raw diet. What do you think of that?
> Getting a balanced diet into them using raw meat would be my main concern.

A raw diet would be excellent, provided it was a balanced diet. Grain-
free canned is also good.

Here are some links that might be helpful.

Cat nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org/

Nutrition and raw diets: http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php

A very good book, which discusses much on wet and raw diets is Your
Cat. Here is a link to it in Amazon so you can see what it looks like:
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Cat-Simple-Secrets-Stronger/dp/0312358024/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260911453&sr=8-1


FWIW, I fed my oldest dry for the first four years of his life. He had
a UTI at age 1 1/2, then needed surgery for crystals at age 3. Since
he's been on a grain free, wet diet, he's had NO urinary problems (and
he's 11 now).

Kelly Greene
December 15th 09, 11:56 PM
"Jean B." > wrote in message
...
> Kelly Greene wrote:
>>
>> "---MIKE---" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> Feed him a good quality canned food diet. The extra water in the canned
>> food helps to dilute the urine and prevent crystals from forming. I
>> even add a little water to the canned food.
>>
>>
>> Yes I can do that. Would warm milk work also if he's not lactose
>> intolerant?
>>
>
> You could use Lactaid. Seems to me that milk was forbidden for cats who
> have this problem (not that yours does yet_. I'd like to heat whether
> that is the case.

I'll use warm water then. No use taking a chance. With the info on those
recommended websites I located a Petco less than 10 miles from my house that
carries the canned Pro Plan Adult Urinary Tract Health Cat Food. I'm going
out there Fri or Sat to pick up a case of it and another cat Tree-condo on
sale for $149. :) I hope they have the condo-tree in by then. I want to
start adding raw food to thier diet also. Unfortunately the local Wal*Mart
doesn't have beef heart, kidney, chicken gizzards hearts and other such
goodies. I have to drive to the other end of the nearest town and see if
Publix or Kroger has organ meats.

Kelly Greene
December 16th 09, 12:07 AM
"Rene" > wrote in message
...
> .
>>
>> I've been reading on feeding more of a raw diet. What do you think of
>> that?
>> Getting a balanced diet into them using raw meat would be my main
>> concern.
>
> A raw diet would be excellent, provided it was a balanced diet. Grain-
> free canned is also good.
>
> Here are some links that might be helpful.
>
> Cat nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org/
>
> Nutrition and raw diets: http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php
>
> A very good book, which discusses much on wet and raw diets is Your
> Cat. Here is a link to it in Amazon so you can see what it looks like:
> http://www.amazon.com/Your-Cat-Simple-Secrets-Stronger/dp/0312358024/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260911453&sr=8-1
>
>
> FWIW, I fed my oldest dry for the first four years of his life. He had
> a UTI at age 1 1/2, then needed surgery for crystals at age 3. Since
> he's been on a grain free, wet diet, he's had NO urinary problems (and
> he's 11 now).

Wow! That poor kitty - and so young. I so fear Spirit suffering from such
an awful and painful condition. I have no idea what he was fed before since
someone just dumped him off out here. He will get no dry food here except a
little "Wellness" or "Solid Gold" as a weekly treat. I am going to read the
above sites if I haven't already. I've spent hours and hours online
learning about cat nutrition. I want these 3 kitties to live long healthy
lives. I don't mind buying raw foods for them. There has to be a grocery
store here that carries organ meats. I'm going to start with chicken
wingtips.

The big boy, our newest cat "Spirit" (12 lbs of muscle) isn't out of the
woods yet. His injury was deep and wide. I can only pray it doesn't get
infected. He goes back to have the drain removed Saturday or Monday. I have
to call them tomorrow for an appt.

Kelly Greene
December 16th 09, 12:18 AM
"Jean B." > wrote in message
...
> Kelly Green wrote:
>> Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats?
>> Spirit will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a
>> male with endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd
>> never adopt another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself
>> probably keeping Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow.
>> What is the recommended diet these days to help prevent his painful
>> condition? I know the vet I worked for in the 70s believed it was due to
>> poor diet and secondarily by the castration itself causing the urethra to
>> shrink and narrow. Any ideas? Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want
>> Spirit suffering like that cat did for years.
>
> Yes. Canned food. Preferably without a lot of stuff added that looks
> good to humans but is not part of a cat's normal diet. Also, if you don't
> already have a water fountain, think about one--and about putting water at
> various locations throughout your abode.
>
> --
> Jean B.

Yes! I saw those cat fountains with running water somewhere. I can't recall
where. My SD, another cat lover, has one for her 3 cats. They love it and
she believes they drink more since she bought it. I'm going to Petco within
a week to pick up some items, I'll see if they have them. If they don't, I'm
sure PetsMart will have them.... or I'll call and ask her where she got
hers.

Bill Graham
December 16th 09, 12:22 AM
"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Feed him a good quality canned food diet. The extra water in the canned
food helps to dilute the urine and prevent crystals from forming. I
even add a little water to the canned food.


My fixed males don't seem to have this problem, but this may be because they
eat some people food once in a while, and this gives them some salt, which
causes them to drink water.....All of my cats seem to drink lots of water,
and this may be the reason why.

Kelly Greene
December 16th 09, 07:52 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "---MIKE---" > wrote in message
> ...
> Feed him a good quality canned food diet. The extra water in the canned
> food helps to dilute the urine and prevent crystals from forming. I
> even add a little water to the canned food.
>
>
> My fixed males don't seem to have this problem, but this may be because
> they eat some people food once in a while, and this gives them some salt,
> which causes them to drink water.....All of my cats seem to drink lots of
> water, and this may be the reason why.

Are you feeding them canned or dry foods? A mix? Mine also nibble table
food and love that salty oily C. Saunders fried chicken.

dgk
December 16th 09, 03:38 PM
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:25:54 -0600, "Kelly Greene"
> wrote:

>
>"dgk" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:36:48 -0600, "Kelly Green" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats?
>>>Spirit
>>>will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a male
>>>with
>>>endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd never adopt
>>>another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself probably keeping
>>>Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow. What is the
>>>recommended
>>>diet these days to help prevent his painful condition? I know the vet I
>>>worked for in the 70s believed it was due to poor diet and secondarily by
>>>the castration itself causing the urethra to shrink and narrow. Any ideas?
>>>Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want Spirit suffering like that cat did
>>>for years.
>>
>>
>> I've had six or seven fixed male cats during the last 25 years and
>> only one of them had that problem:
>>
>> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-feline-urinary-blockage.htm
>>
>> The vet didn't prescribe a special diet for Espy after it happened,
>> but I was at the local pet store and found this
>>
>> http://www.petco.com/product/105817/Pro-Plan-Adult-Urinary-Tract-Health-Canned-Cat-Food.aspx
>>
>> Oddly, my three cats all really like it so I asked the vet and he said
>> that it was fine for them and might even help.
>>
>> I've very attuned to the problem (see the posting about litterboxes
>> today) and have a surveilance camera over the Litter Robot so I can be
>> sure that Epsy goes regularly. If a day goes by and I don't see that
>> he went I pay real close attention. Sometimes they go out in the
>> backyard though so I cut him a bit of slack on those days. He will pee
>> outside if fthe urge strikes.
>
>Thank you for this information. I have both sites open on MozillaFF and
>will read them to the end as soon as I finish this group. I remember there
>was a small pill I had to give my cat back then to keep his urine more acid.
>He fought tooth and nail when pilled. :( The little pill helped but he
>had problems all his life. They didn't know as much about cat nutrition and
>diet related problems than as they do now.
>
>I've been reading on feeding more of a raw diet. What do you think of that?
>Getting a balanced diet into them using raw meat would be my main concern.


The raw diet is supposed to be great - sort of what they really eat in
nature. I tried using a frozen variation once - this one:

http://www.stevesrealfood.com/

They had it in the freezer in a local pet store. It is a bit of a PITA
though because you need to plan ahead and have it defrosted. Worse, my
cats wouldn't eat it. They sniff around and stare at it and eventually
it goes bad. I really thought that they'd like it, being essentially
pure meat, but none of them like hamburger either (raw or cooked). I
think my cats want to be vegans but aren't built for it.

I don't know if a raw diet would really help with crystal formation
though. A few years ago everyone thought the problem was ash and
magnesium, now it's supposed to be pH. I think the reason the vet
didn't recommend a special diet is because Epsy managed to get a
blockage and the urinalysis had a perfectly normal pH.

Every creature is going to have health problems of some sort and it
seems pretty much the roll of the dice as to who gets crystals, who
gets saddle clots, who gets cancer.

This is a pretty good summation of the issues with blockages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_lower_urinary_tract_disease

Espy is one of the 60% in wihich the cause is never discovered. The
Specialty Vet told me that cats generally outgrow this problem around
age 7, which is just about where Epsy is now. The article says that it
mostly affects cats 2 - 5. So I'm thinking maybe it won't happen
again.

Still, the vast majority of cats that eat only dry food and are
neutered males never get this.

Kelly Greene
December 16th 09, 04:39 PM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:25:54 -0600, "Kelly Greene"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"dgk" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:36:48 -0600, "Kelly Green" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats?
>>>>Spirit
>>>>will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a male
>>>>with
>>>>endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd never adopt
>>>>another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself probably
>>>>keeping
>>>>Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow. What is the
>>>>recommended
>>>>diet these days to help prevent his painful condition? I know the vet I
>>>>worked for in the 70s believed it was due to poor diet and secondarily
>>>>by
>>>>the castration itself causing the urethra to shrink and narrow. Any
>>>>ideas?
>>>>Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want Spirit suffering like that cat
>>>>did
>>>>for years.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've had six or seven fixed male cats during the last 25 years and
>>> only one of them had that problem:
>>>
>>> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-feline-urinary-blockage.htm
>>>
>>> The vet didn't prescribe a special diet for Espy after it happened,
>>> but I was at the local pet store and found this
>>>
>>> http://www.petco.com/product/105817/Pro-Plan-Adult-Urinary-Tract-Health-Canned-Cat-Food.aspx
>>>
>>> Oddly, my three cats all really like it so I asked the vet and he said
>>> that it was fine for them and might even help.
>>>
>>> I've very attuned to the problem (see the posting about litterboxes
>>> today) and have a surveilance camera over the Litter Robot so I can be
>>> sure that Epsy goes regularly. If a day goes by and I don't see that
>>> he went I pay real close attention. Sometimes they go out in the
>>> backyard though so I cut him a bit of slack on those days. He will pee
>>> outside if fthe urge strikes.
>>
>>Thank you for this information. I have both sites open on MozillaFF and
>>will read them to the end as soon as I finish this group. I remember there
>>was a small pill I had to give my cat back then to keep his urine more
>>acid.
>>He fought tooth and nail when pilled. :( The little pill helped but he
>>had problems all his life. They didn't know as much about cat nutrition
>>and
>>diet related problems than as they do now.
>>
>>I've been reading on feeding more of a raw diet. What do you think of
>>that?
>>Getting a balanced diet into them using raw meat would be my main concern.
>
>
> The raw diet is supposed to be great - sort of what they really eat in
> nature. I tried using a frozen variation once - this one:
>
> http://www.stevesrealfood.com/
>
> They had it in the freezer in a local pet store. It is a bit of a PITA
> though because you need to plan ahead and have it defrosted. Worse, my
> cats wouldn't eat it. They sniff around and stare at it and eventually
> it goes bad. I really thought that they'd like it, being essentially
> pure meat, but none of them like hamburger either (raw or cooked). I
> think my cats want to be vegans but aren't built for it.
>
> I don't know if a raw diet would really help with crystal formation
> though. A few years ago everyone thought the problem was ash and
> magnesium, now it's supposed to be pH. I think the reason the vet
> didn't recommend a special diet is because Epsy managed to get a
> blockage and the urinalysis had a perfectly normal pH.
>
> Every creature is going to have health problems of some sort and it
> seems pretty much the roll of the dice as to who gets crystals, who
> gets saddle clots, who gets cancer.
>
> This is a pretty good summation of the issues with blockages:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_lower_urinary_tract_disease
>
> Espy is one of the 60% in wihich the cause is never discovered. The
> Specialty Vet told me that cats generally outgrow this problem around
> age 7, which is just about where Epsy is now. The article says that it
> mostly affects cats 2 - 5. So I'm thinking maybe it won't happen
> again.
>
> Still, the vast majority of cats that eat only dry food and are
> neutered males never get this.

I'm going to read the article. We travel a lot in the warm months and can be
on the road for days. It never occurred to me with the girls that a real
emergency could come up! A blocked urethra would be such an emergency. I'm
probably worrying for nothing but I remember how much Satin suffered. In
all the years I worked in the Animal clinic I don't recall one female cat
with the problem. From what I saw where I worked, it was a PH
issue+castration. Castration makes their urethra shrink and become narrower.
Add to that the totally unnatural dry food so many of us feed: Meat = acid.
Carbs = alkaline. There's a connection there since dry food is loaded with
carbs. The old vet who owned the clinic where I worked always said he seldom
saw all the problems he was seeing BEFORE everyone started feeding their
cats dry food. Cats thrived on table and meat scraps and whatever they
caught outside. Obesity in cats was rare in those pre-dry food days.

I would buy the meat and make my own mix rather than pay what these
companies charge. I have a feeling though that organ meats wont be easy to
find where I live. I don't know if mine would eat raw meat but I can
probably wean them on to it as I did the canned food. I have to try and
locate an Asian food store. I know they sell all kinds of seafood......

Allan Smith
December 16th 09, 11:06 PM
Kelly,

I can't explain it, and my Vets can't either, but over the last 50 years
I've had four males with the problem, and the same Rx fixed them all.

Half a strip of fried bacon everyday. Several vets have thought it maybe was
because it is an other-mineral-rich source of salt, and thus increased water
consumption. Ohters though it might be the balance of minerals. One though
it was probably the sulfur, which he said most cats are probably deficient
in.

In the case of the last two guys, after the bacon took care of the problem,
I discontinued it and put a small amount of Sea Salt in their water (1/8 tsp
per cup). They loved it, and didn't have the problem again.

Stones are all about the relative balance of several different minerals. Sea
Salt has the same balance of minerals as does seawater and blood (if you
take mammalian blood and filter-out all the solids in it, what you are
left-with has the same mineral composition as seawater). Cats in the wild
eat a lot of blood, but prepared foods have very little of it in them.

I put Sea Salt in all my cats water. And, of course, all the salt used in
this house is Sea Salt. It's saltier and you use less, and it has other
minerals besides just sodium [1].

It's good for you, and good for them.

I hope this helps.

Allan

[1] Besides oxygen and hydrogen and salt (NaCl), sewater contains:

Magnesium, Sulfur, Calcium, Potassium, Bromine, and even a little elemental
carbon.

"Kelly Green" > wrote in message
. com...
> Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats?
> Spirit will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a
> male with endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd
> never adopt another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself
> probably keeping Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow. What
> is the recommended diet these days to help prevent his painful condition?
> I know the vet I worked for in the 70s believed it was due to poor diet
> and secondarily by the castration itself causing the urethra to shrink and
> narrow. Any ideas? Thoughts on this? Advice? I don't want Spirit suffering
> like that cat did for years.

Bill Graham
December 17th 09, 02:34 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "---MIKE---" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> Feed him a good quality canned food diet. The extra water in the canned
>> food helps to dilute the urine and prevent crystals from forming. I
>> even add a little water to the canned food.
>>
>>
>> My fixed males don't seem to have this problem, but this may be because
>> they eat some people food once in a while, and this gives them some salt,
>> which causes them to drink water.....All of my cats seem to drink lots of
>> water, and this may be the reason why.
>
> Are you feeding them canned or dry foods? A mix? Mine also nibble table
> food and love that salty oily C. Saunders fried chicken.
Yes. - To all of the above.....they hop up on the table while we eat and
nibble on anything that takes their fancy......We even let them lick the
butter, because someone told us it was good for their hairballs, and one of
them had an $800 hair ball operation a couple of years ago. They pretty well
eat whatever they want. B-K lived on dry food for about 4 years, but now he
seems to be getting into people food again. - He wouldn't touch it after
living in a Burger King parking lot for ? months.

dgk
December 17th 09, 02:27 PM
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:06:37 -0500, "Allan Smith"
> wrote:

>Kelly,
>
>I can't explain it, and my Vets can't either, but over the last 50 years
>I've had four males with the problem, and the same Rx fixed them all.
>
>Half a strip of fried bacon everyday. Several vets have thought it maybe was
>because it is an other-mineral-rich source of salt, and thus increased water
>consumption. Ohters though it might be the balance of minerals. One though
>it was probably the sulfur, which he said most cats are probably deficient
>in.
>
>In the case of the last two guys, after the bacon took care of the problem,
>I discontinued it and put a small amount of Sea Salt in their water (1/8 tsp
>per cup). They loved it, and didn't have the problem again.
>
>Stones are all about the relative balance of several different minerals. Sea
>Salt has the same balance of minerals as does seawater and blood (if you
>take mammalian blood and filter-out all the solids in it, what you are
>left-with has the same mineral composition as seawater). Cats in the wild
>eat a lot of blood, but prepared foods have very little of it in them.
>
>I put Sea Salt in all my cats water. And, of course, all the salt used in
>this house is Sea Salt. It's saltier and you use less, and it has other
>minerals besides just sodium [1].
>
>It's good for you, and good for them.
>
>I hope this helps.
>
>Allan
>
>[1] Besides oxygen and hydrogen and salt (NaCl), sewater contains:
>
>Magnesium, Sulfur, Calcium, Potassium, Bromine, and even a little elemental
>carbon.
>

That's interesting. I'm afraid of what will happen to me if I start
cooking bacon daily. Perhaps sea salt is the better option.

Allan Smith
December 17th 09, 02:58 PM
dgk,

I only used bacon when there was a current problem. I'd do 4 strips, half
them, and keep them in the 'fridge.

Don't overdo the Sea Salt. If you can taste it, it's probably too much. I
mis-stated the amount, start with an eighth per pint, not cup.

I had one cat that refused tap water - he'd go outside to find water. He
taught me to use distilled water. It avoids the calcimum, chlorine and
flouride in municipal water systems. Bottled water is also a good choice if
it is chlorine-free and flouride free.

Try putting down two bowls of water, one tapwater, one distilled water, and
see which one gets consumed. Most cats will prefer the distilled. And, of
course, change the water and clean the bowl daily.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:06:37 -0500, "Allan Smith"
> > wrote:
>
>>Kelly,
>>
>>I can't explain it, and my Vets can't either, but over the last 50 years
>>I've had four males with the problem, and the same Rx fixed them all.
>>

Kelly Greene
December 17th 09, 11:03 PM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Are you feeding them canned or dry foods? A mix? Mine also nibble table
>> food and love that salty oily C. Saunders fried chicken.


> Yes. - To all of the above.....they hop up on the table while we eat and
> nibble on anything that takes their fancy......We even let them lick the
> butter, ........

Mine love butter (lightly salted) also! :-) I melt it and mix it into
their food.

because someone told us it was good for their hairballs, and one of
> them had an $800 hair ball operation a couple of years ago.

OMG! That poor cat. Is she/he a long or medium haired kitty?

They pretty well
> eat whatever they want. B-K lived on dry food for about 4 years, but now
> he seems to be getting into people food again. - He wouldn't touch it
> after living in a Burger King parking lot for ? months.

LOL!!!! He became a fast food junkie! ;-)
Our new boy Spirit will eat anything I put in his bowl after he realized
there wont be any free-feeding or dry kibble available. He figured the
moist mix of "Wellness" and canned meat cat food was *it* - or nothing.
What was a growing boy to do? So he ate it. We feed them 3 times a day. He
missed lunch today. He was a little upset from his trip to the vet this
morning. He must be hiding under the bed again. I'm sure he'll show up for
kitty dinnertime tonight.

Kelly Greene
December 17th 09, 11:23 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Kelly,
>
> I can't explain it, and my Vets can't either, but over the last 50 years
> I've had four males with the problem, and the same Rx fixed them all.
>
> Half a strip of fried bacon everyday. Several vets have thought it maybe
> was because it is an other-mineral-rich source of salt, and thus increased
> water consumption. Ohters though it might be the balance of minerals. One
> though it was probably the sulfur, which he said most cats are probably
> deficient in.
>
> In the case of the last two guys, after the bacon took care of the
> problem, I discontinued it and put a small amount of Sea Salt in their
> water (1/8 tsp per cup). They loved it, and didn't have the problem again.
>
> Stones are all about the relative balance of several different minerals.
> Sea Salt has the same balance of minerals as does seawater and blood (if
> you take mammalian blood and filter-out all the solids in it, what you are
> left-with has the same mineral composition as seawater). Cats in the wild
> eat a lot of blood, but prepared foods have very little of it in them.
>
> I put Sea Salt in all my cats water. And, of course, all the salt used in
> this house is Sea Salt. It's saltier and you use less, and it has other
> minerals besides just sodium [1].
>
> It's good for you, and good for them.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Allan
>
> [1] Besides oxygen and hydrogen and salt (NaCl), sewater contains:
>
> Magnesium, Sulfur, Calcium, Potassium, Bromine, and even a little
> elemental carbon.


I just bought some for my husband and myself! :-))) I'll add a pinch to
their food each day. You don't think the magnesium would cause a problem in
time or does the extra urine take care of that? My sea salt is iodized?
Would it still be OK? I can get the one not iodized.

Kelly Greene
December 17th 09, 11:25 PM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's interesting. I'm afraid of what will happen to me if I start
> cooking bacon daily. Perhaps sea salt is the better option.


I'm afraid of all the chemical preservatives in bacon. It's hard to find
fresh bacon without them.

Kelly Greene
December 17th 09, 11:28 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>>
> Try putting down two bowls of water, one tapwater, one distilled water,
> and see which one gets consumed. Most cats will prefer the distilled. And,
> of course, change the water and clean the bowl daily.
>

I think I'll try rainwater. I collect it for my clothes iron and humidifier.
:-) Our tap water here smells like a pool from chlorine and is loaded with
calcium. It's gross and tastes like Seltzer.

Bill Graham
December 18th 09, 03:44 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Are you feeding them canned or dry foods? A mix? Mine also nibble
>>> table food and love that salty oily C. Saunders fried chicken.
>
>
>> Yes. - To all of the above.....they hop up on the table while we eat and
>> nibble on anything that takes their fancy......We even let them lick the
>> butter, ........
>
> Mine love butter (lightly salted) also! :-) I melt it and mix it into
> their food.
>
> because someone told us it was good for their hairballs, and one of
>> them had an $800 hair ball operation a couple of years ago.
>
> OMG! That poor cat. Is she/he a long or medium haired kitty?
>
> They pretty well
>> eat whatever they want. B-K lived on dry food for about 4 years, but now
>> he seems to be getting into people food again. - He wouldn't touch it
>> after living in a Burger King parking lot for ? months.
>
> LOL!!!! He became a fast food junkie! ;-)
> Our new boy Spirit will eat anything I put in his bowl after he realized
> there wont be any free-feeding or dry kibble available. He figured the
> moist mix of "Wellness" and canned meat cat food was *it* - or nothing.
> What was a growing boy to do? So he ate it. We feed them 3 times a day.
> He missed lunch today. He was a little upset from his trip to the vet this
> morning. He must be hiding under the bed again. I'm sure he'll show up for
> kitty dinnertime tonight.
>
Meggie has long, and very fine hair, but she doesn't seem to shed.....She
developed this lump in her abdomen, and it grew and grew, so we called the
vet. They scheduled her for an operation, and since Meggie had stopped
eating, it was very soon. They told us that if it was contained, they would
remove it, but if it had metastasized, they would just put her to sleep on
the operating table. We were very worried, and waited by the telephone to
find out how it went....When we got the call, they said that her stomach was
huge, and had filled up her entire abdominal cavity, so they opened it up,
and found.......A huge hairball!! So they removed it, and she would be fine.
That was two years ago, and she hasn't had any problems since, but at $800 a
whack, we would a lot sooner put up with her eating butter out of the butter
dish.....:^)

Allan Smith
December 18th 09, 12:34 PM
Kelly,

I'd not use rainwater, unelss it is very fresh, or unless you boil it first.
Collected rainwater quickly fits the definition of "stagnant water", and
there are a variety of protozoans and other cirtters that can thrive in
stagnant water. While not harmful to plants and steam irons, they can cause
animals, and us, much greif in the digestive system.

That applies to humidifiers as well, if they are the ultrasonic type.
Anything in the water is expelled in the atomized water droplets into the
room, and can wind up in the lungs. The older steam type aren't as risky,
because they heat the water to boiling to create the steam, thereby
sterilizing it.

There are several compositions of stones that develop in the feline urinary
system, due to a rather complex chemistry. Of the ones originating in a
non-infected kidney, studies show over 90% of them are calcium oxylate
monohydrate. Stones originating in the bladder are typically uric acid. Two
minerals are of concern, struvite (calcium-based), an apatite
(magnesium-based). The calcium-based structures are the most common, as
magnesium-based apatite is usally the result of an active infection.

Like all carnivores, the metabolism aggressively conserves water, and as a
result they drink relatively little water, and thus heavily concentrate
their urine. It is the concentration that is problematic, as crystals begin
to form. It isn't so much the calcium, since in the wild, cats eat quite a
bit of bone, and have a relatively calcium-rich diet. In fact, it's not just
about any one component, its about the total chemistry, including oxylates
and phosphates.

The body easily deals with excess sodium by either excreting it in sweat, or
by eliminating it in the urine. Since cats don't sweat, the urinary path is
the primary one. Anything that promotes more frequent urination is useful,
as the formation of urine is increased, and the concentration of minerals
thus lowered, reducing crystallization and resulting in smaller crystals
that pass out of the body without causing harm.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>> Try putting down two bowls of water, one tapwater, one distilled water,
>> and see which one gets consumed. Most cats will prefer the distilled.
>> And, of course, change the water and clean the bowl daily.
>>
>
> I think I'll try rainwater. I collect it for my clothes iron and
> humidifier. :-) Our tap water here smells like a pool from chlorine and
> is loaded with calcium. It's gross and tastes like Seltzer.

Allan Smith
December 18th 09, 12:38 PM
Kelly,

I don't use bacon on a daily basis, just if there is an 'episode' of
frequent attempts to urinate and apparent pain or strain. Once the episode
passes, I reduce the frequency.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "dgk" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> That's interesting. I'm afraid of what will happen to me if I start
>> cooking bacon daily. Perhaps sea salt is the better option.
>
>
> I'm afraid of all the chemical preservatives in bacon. It's hard to find
> fresh bacon without them.

Allan Smith
December 18th 09, 02:06 PM
Kelly,

You might also find that cats don't like their food salted. Not so much
because of the taste, but being cats, they are inherently cautious and
skeptical of anything different or of any change.

Start slowly, and let them get used to the salt. It doesn't really take much
to increase frequency of urination. If your cat urinates two or three times
in 24 hours as is typical, adding one more urination would probably be
adequate.

While there are many "urinary health" foods touting "reduced magnesium",
magnesium has not been shown to be a direct problem except in active kidney
or bladder infections. The real reason the foods can help is to produce a
more acidic urine, reducing crystal formation. Reducing magnesium is an easy
way to do that, but by the time the marketing department gets through with
the science, the resulting label package will have you believe magnesium to
be some sort of culprit. It is more correctly simply a means to get to the
endpoint of a slightly more acidic urine. However, Mg _deficiency_ can
indirectly result in stones. [1]

Most cat foods contain added iodine, as do human multi-vitamins, but a
little more is not going to hurt anything, and may be helpful in preventing
the development of hyperthriodism in older cats. The incidence of
hyperthryoidism in older cats is increasing, but I cannot find any published
studies on whether that is better diagnosis, or an iodine-related issue.

Allan

[1] - Mg is an essential nutrient, involved in over 200 processes in the
body. Symptoms of Mg deficiency include mitral valve prolapse, migraines,
attention deficit disorder, fibromyalgia, asthma and allergies. When these
symptoms occur in clusters within the same indiviual, Mg deficiency should
be a primary suspect.

Excessive amounts of Mg generally produce the same symptoms as low calcium
levels, as Ca and Mg are antagonists to each other, must be maintained in
balance. An excess of one results in an apparent deficiency of the other. Mg
toxicity tends to procuce low blood pressure, heart irregularities, weak
appetite, and chronic diarrhea.

There is no evidence that excessive Mg directly causes any urinary tract
symptoms. However, a _deficiency_ of Mg may lead to excess calcium in the
urine as the body tries to rebalance the antagonists.


--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.


> I just bought some for my husband and myself! :-))) I'll add a pinch to
> their food each day. You don't think the magnesium would cause a problem
> in time or does the extra urine take care of that? My sea salt is
> iodized? Would it still be OK? I can get the one not iodized.
>
>

Bill Graham
December 18th 09, 09:58 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Excessive amounts of Mg generally produce the same symptoms as low calcium
> levels, as Ca and Mg are antagonists to each other, must be maintained in
> balance. An excess of one results in an apparent deficiency of the other.
> Mg toxicity tends to procuce low blood pressure, heart irregularities,
> weak appetite, and chronic diarrhea.

Hummmmm.....I wonder if this is also true with Humans? I have had heartburn
all of my adult life, and have taken Mylanta for it. Mylanta is a mixture of
Aluminum and magnesium hydroxide, so I have been ingesting magnesium most of
my life, and my blood pressure is quite low.....Amazingly low for an
overweight 74 year old......Perhaps this is a result of my magnesium intake?

I also have an irregular heartbeat. (come to think of it)

Allan Smith
December 18th 09, 11:28 PM
Bill,

It is quite possible, as those with long histories of sustained magnesium
intake can develop the symptoms you describe.

I'd strongly encourage you to talk to a Physician to review your history of
heartburn, and your current treatment modality. There are many possibilities
for ongoing heartburn, including Helicobacter Pylorii infection, many of
which are quite amenable to new curative and/or management modalities.

Even if it isn't a disease process, there are far safer and more effective
alternatives to control chronic excess stomach acid than long-term
over-the-counter antacids. That is especially true, and especially
important, at your age. Please see a Doctor, and be detailed and
straightforward with him or her.

Best of luck to you sir,

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Excessive amounts of Mg generally produce the same symptoms as low
>> calcium

Bill Graham
December 18th 09, 11:54 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Bill,
>
> It is quite possible, as those with long histories of sustained magnesium
> intake can develop the symptoms you describe.
>
> I'd strongly encourage you to talk to a Physician to review your history
> of heartburn, and your current treatment modality. There are many
> possibilities for ongoing heartburn, including Helicobacter Pylorii
> infection, many of which are quite amenable to new curative and/or
> management modalities.
>
> Even if it isn't a disease process, there are far safer and more effective
> alternatives to control chronic excess stomach acid than long-term
> over-the-counter antacids. That is especially true, and especially
> important, at your age. Please see a Doctor, and be detailed and
> straightforward with him or her.
>
> Best of luck to you sir,
>
> Allan

Thank you for your concern....My chronic heartburn kind of left me soon
after retirement, which has been around 13 years ago now, so I am not so
worried about it anymore.....It only comes back if I eat something heavy
before I go to sleep, and I have not done that for some time now. However,
over the course of the 40 years or so that I had it, I consumes gallons of
Mylanta, so it is not surprising that I might have some symptoms from all
that ingestion of Magnesium. I am lucky that I have a good health insurance
plan, and I see an endocrinologist for my diabetes on a regular basis.

Allan Smith
December 19th 09, 02:06 AM
Bill,

My apologies, I thought you were still doing the OTC stuff. Magnesium is
quite transitory. It is highly unlikely that what you consumed in the past
would permanently affect you.

Specialists tend to do the tests involved with their specialty. Be sure you
are having a sufficiently broad spectrum of tests.

I'd suggest a Physician that is more a generalist than a specialist. The
appropriate blood tests will spot any abnormalites across a very broad
spectrum. I have one every year at my Physical Exam, and have had it for the
last 45 years. The specific tests are a CMP14+LP (Complete Wellness Profile
14 plus Lipoproteins), and a CBC with Differential Platelet (Complete Blood
Count with Differentials/Platelets).

I'd also recommend a 25-Hydroxy Vitamin D assay, as over 9 of 10 of us
oldsters have been found clinically deficient in a vitamin that spans many
bodily systems, due to an antiquated Minimum Daily Requirement (MDR) of 400
IU from the FDA. Correcting that probelm resolved a number of mysterious
symptoms that had been with me for years. I now take 3000 IU (total content
of all supplemental sources), plus any in my diet. Old skin doesn't make
much from the sun anymore.

After 18 months of study of a decade of Vitamin D international research,
the FDA is due to update its recommendation (currently 400 IU/day) in May of
2010. It is widely anticipated they will increase it by at least fivefold.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Bill,
>>
>> It is quite possible, as those with long histories of sustained magnesium
>> intake can develop the symptoms you describe.

Kelly Greene
December 19th 09, 11:36 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>> Meggie has long, and very fine hair, but she doesn't seem to shed.....She
> developed this lump in her abdomen, and it grew and grew, so we called the
> vet. They scheduled her for an operation, and since Meggie had stopped
> eating, it was very soon. They told us that if it was contained, they
> would remove it, but if it had metastasized, they would just put her to
> sleep on the operating table. We were very worried, and waited by the
> telephone to find out how it went....When we got the call, they said that
> her stomach was huge, and had filled up her entire abdominal cavity, so
> they opened it up, and found.......A huge hairball!! So they removed it,
> and she would be fine. That was two years ago, and she hasn't had any
> problems since, but at $800 a whack, we would a lot sooner put up with her
> eating butter out of the butter dish.....:^)

I have heard stories like this before. I was told years ago that cats with
access to grass will use that to get rid of hairballs. The grass tangles
with the swallowed hair, and having a roughness, can be barffed up. They
barff up a mixed tangled ball of hair and grass. I have seen some of my old
outdoor/indoor cats barff up these tangles. Hair alone is too slimy and
slick and compressible, so isn't easily brought up.

I don't recall hairballs being much of a problem years ago.

How old was Maggie when this happened?

Kelly Greene
December 19th 09, 11:50 AM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...

(Brevity snip!)

>
> The body easily deals with excess sodium by either excreting it in sweat,
> or by eliminating it in the urine. Since cats don't sweat, the urinary
> path is the primary one. Anything that promotes more frequent urination is
> useful, as the formation of urine is increased, and the concentration of
> minerals thus lowered, reducing crystallization and resulting in smaller
> crystals that pass out of the body without causing harm.
>
> Allan

This is good to know. I catch the rainwater in large 30g tanks. It goes
fresh into clean milk jugs. I don't do this when it's warm weather as the
frogs take them over. I save loads of jugs of this water in winter for use
all summer.

Something must be knocking this balance off for so many cats to suffer from
these crystals. It doesn't happen in nature, yet for some reason it does in
captivity. It has to be diet related. I started them off on some raw beef
today. I cut it in small chunks and mixed it into their food. They gobbled
it right up. :-) I've got to get to the stores across town and see if I
can find gizzards, hearts etc.

Kelly Greene
December 19th 09, 12:01 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Kelly,

*Some snips (thanks to this NSP)

>
> You might also find that cats don't like their food salted. Not so much
> because of the taste, but being cats, they are inherently cautious and
> skeptical of anything different or of any change.
>
> Start slowly, and let them get used to the salt. It doesn't really take
> much to increase frequency of urination. If your cat urinates two or three
> times in 24 hours as is typical, adding one more urination would probably
> be adequate.

That's about then number of times they urinate. And they do a lot when they
go.

The incidence of
> hyperthryoidism in older cats is increasing, but I cannot find any
> published studies on whether that is better diagnosis, or an
> iodine-related issue.

Isn't it ironic that our pets are all starting to suffer the same maladies
us humans are? Some people believe it's all the excess carbohydrates in our
diets. Look what's in the average bag or can of dog and cat food! Look what
us humans consume in the form of breads, rolls, cake, pies, french fries...
sugar, suger and more sugar.

> There is no evidence that excessive Mg directly causes any urinary tract
> symptoms. However, a _deficiency_ of Mg may lead to excess calcium in the
> urine as the body tries to rebalance the antagonists.
>

See? It comes back to what the animal or person is eating and drinking.

Kelly Greene
December 19th 09, 12:05 PM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Excessive amounts of Mg generally produce the same symptoms as low
>> calcium levels, as Ca and Mg are antagonists to each other, must be
>> maintained in balance. An excess of one results in an apparent deficiency
>> of the other. Mg toxicity tends to procuce low blood pressure, heart
>> irregularities, weak appetite, and chronic diarrhea.
>
> Hummmmm.....I wonder if this is also true with Humans? I have had
> heartburn all of my adult life, and have taken Mylanta for it. Mylanta is
> a mixture of Aluminum and magnesium hydroxide, .....

Heartburn is almost always caused by diet. Obesity aggravates it. Rich
foods high carbohydrates and spicy foods also aggravate and can cause it.
You may want to try a more bland and healthy diet.

so I have been ingesting magnesium most of
> my life, and my blood pressure is quite low.....Amazingly low for an
> overweight 74 year old......Perhaps this is a result of my magnesium
> intake?
> I also have an irregular heartbeat. (come to think of it)

You may want to check these things out with your Dr. Seriously!

Kelly Greene
December 19th 09, 12:08 PM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
I am lucky that I have a good health insurance
> plan, and I see an endocrinologist for my diabetes on a regular basis.

It sounds like you were on the typical "American" diet all your life.

Kelly Greene
December 19th 09, 12:19 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd also recommend a 25-Hydroxy Vitamin D assay, as over 9 of 10 of us
> oldsters have been found clinically deficient in a vitamin that spans many
> bodily systems, due to an antiquated Minimum Daily Requirement (MDR) of
> 400 IU from the FDA. Correcting that probelm resolved a number of
> mysterious symptoms that had been with me for years. I now take 3000 IU
> (total content of all supplemental sources), plus any in my diet. Old skin
> doesn't make much from the sun anymore.

We just started taking Vitamin D on the suggestion of my husband's Dr at the
VA Hosp. I've been having strange heart symptoms the past few years. All
they tell me is the tests are inconclusive, nothing is really found. It's
very frustrating and I have more tests on the 22nd. My BP goes up and down
for no apparent reason. It used to always be around 120/80. Now it can be
from that to as high as 155/85. Up and down. Sometimes my heart races for
no apparent reason, or pounds. Sometimes it skips a beat. Sometimes when
I'm walking fast or going upstairs it feels like I can feel my heartbeat in
the base of my throat! A strange pounding at the front and base of my neck.
I don't understand why they can't find the cause or problem. :(

Allan Smith
December 19th 09, 02:52 PM
Kelly,

How much do you take? Based on my own eperience, 1000 is not enough. I was
taking 400 in the multivitamin, 400 in the calcium tablet, and 250 in the
fish oil cpsules. Optimum serum 25-hydroxy level is 32 to 100 ng/ml, but
mine was only 18.2. I now take 2000 IU of D3 in addition to the above, and
the level recheck showed it was up to 43. I have more energy, better frame
of mind, lower appetite, have lost 7 pounds without trying, the burning and
tingling in the hands and feet is dramatically reduced, and my blood
pressure is about 10 points lower and more stable. A mystery rash on the
upper back that I'd had for 7 years has disappeared.

I took 6000 a day for two weeks, then dropped back to 3000. It took about a
month for most of the benefits above to occur. It isn't an overnight thing.
Also keep in mind that the dosage levels reported above are for a 200 pound
male. The lowest reported level of adverse effects is at 10,000 per day for
90 days or more, but other studies suggest that 20,000 a day is safe, so
don't be concerned about overdoing it at the levels mentioned above.

A number of clinical studies have shown D to be a major factor in the body's
regulating blood pressure, among many other cardiovascular benefits,
including reducing arrythmia and tachycardia. See:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/sep2007_report_vitamind_01.htm
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Cardiovascular_disease

The first link is the most objective, credible, and complete summary I've
found. The second is more brief and focused on cardiovascular effects.

Let the doctors pursuing your symptoms know that you have started D
supplemtation. They may want to wait for awhile to see if your symptoms
spontaneously improve or resolve.

Hopefully, your symptoms will fade away over time.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>>

Matthew[_3_]
December 19th 09, 04:48 PM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Kelly,
>
> *Some snips (thanks to this NSP)
>
>>
>> You might also find that cats don't like their food salted. Not so much
>> because of the taste, but being cats, they are inherently cautious and
>> skeptical of anything different or of any change.
>>
>> Start slowly, and let them get used to the salt. It doesn't really take
>> much to increase frequency of urination. If your cat urinates two or
>> three times in 24 hours as is typical, adding one more urination would
>> probably be adequate.
>
> That's about then number of times they urinate. And they do a lot when
> they go.
>
> The incidence of
>> hyperthryoidism in older cats is increasing, but I cannot find any
>> published studies on whether that is better diagnosis, or an
>> iodine-related issue.
>
> Isn't it ironic that our pets are all starting to suffer the same maladies
> us humans are? Some people believe it's all the excess carbohydrates in
> our diets. Look what's in the average bag or can of dog and cat food!
> Look what us humans consume in the form of breads, rolls, cake, pies,
> french fries... sugar, suger and more sugar.
>
>> There is no evidence that excessive Mg directly causes any urinary tract
>> symptoms. However, a _deficiency_ of Mg may lead to excess calcium in the
>> urine as the body tries to rebalance the antagonists.
>>
>
> See? It comes back to what the animal or person is eating and drinking.



Hyperthyroidism Has been increasing due to the flame retardant materials in
our furniture and our carpets they did a major study and found that we are
causing the problem in our fur balls

Here is part of a post that i did at the beginning of the year called Could
Your Carpet be Hurting Your Cat?

Right now there is proof that the fire retardant materials found in our
furniture and our carpets is causing hyperthyroidism in our pets. I posted
his awhile ago in another groups

TAMPA - Chemicals in your carpeting could be killing your cat. In August,
the federal government's Environmental Protection Agency shared some scary
news: research scientists had found a link between flame-retardant chemicals
included in carpet-production and feline hyperthyroidism.


FOX 13 in Tampa Bay decided to dig deeper and get more information for
cat-owners locally from Tampa's Florida Veterinary Specialists.


"It's a disease that wasn't diagnosed with any frequency 30 years ago, but
is actually more and more diagnosed now," Dr. Anthony Ishak explained, a
veterinarian and small animal internist at FVS.


Co-worker Cari Sadler seconded, "We see it all the time - all the time."
Government scientists studied whether or not chemicals in carpeting could be
a cause of the disease.


"Some of the flame retardants that have been so pervasive in the carpet
industry and in the furniture industry - for obvious reasons trying to
prevent house fires from getting out control - but those could have a role
in increasing the incidence of this disease," Ishak explained.


Sadler is also 'mom' to several cats at home. In an interview, she said two
of them suffer from the disease, which is the leading cause of death in cats
eight and older. She recalled what it was like when the cats got sick.


"I noticed an overnight weight-loss almost. I was feeling him - and I'm very
particular about watching my animals of course - working here even more so -
and one night I was petting him and I felt his hip bones," Sadler said.


Her cats lost weight from Feline Hyperthyroidism because the disease makes
cats' metabolisms speed up, due to an imbalance in their thyroid glands. The
increased metabolic activity can cause damage to their internal organs and
sometimes death.


But, there is some good news about Feline Hyperthyroidism. If your
veterinarian catches it early enough, it doesn't have to be a fatal disease.
In fact, it can be cured.


"It was probably more fatal before we had effective treatments for it,"
Ishak said. "So now that we do, it's becoming a less fatal disease."


He added that with just a blood test, any vet can diagnose Feline
Hyperthyroidism. The disease can be managed with pills or creams.


And, at Florida Veterinary Specialists, doctors have developed a new
treatment that actually eradicates the disease in most cases. It's a
radioactive Iodine treatment called I-181 treatment.


But to protect your cat in the first place, should you run around the house
pulling up the rug?


The FVS team told FOX 13 no, explaining that this latest research from the
federal government provides just one possible explanation of many.


And, Ishak continued, "They're already taking some steps in the human
population - eliminating some of these flame retardants from production -
from more recent stuff and shifting to other that we think might be safer."

Kelly Green[_3_]
December 20th 09, 09:14 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Kelly,
>
> How much do you take? Based on my own eperience, 1000 is not enough. I was
> taking 400 in the multivitamin, 400 in the calcium tablet, and 250 in the
> fish oil cpsules. Optimum serum 25-hydroxy level is 32 to 100 ng/ml, but
> mine was only 18.2. I now take 2000 IU of D3 in addition to the above, and
> the level recheck showed it was up to 43. I have more energy, better frame
> of mind, lower appetite, have lost 7 pounds without trying, the burning
> and tingling in the hands and feet is dramatically reduced, and my blood
> pressure is about 10 points lower and more stable. A mystery rash on the
> upper back that I'd had for 7 years has disappeared.

WOW!!! I'm so happy you had such good results from a supplement. I'm taking
1000 is plus 500mg calcium. I also drink at least 2 cups of fat-free milk
each day. I probably should increase the calcium.

>
> I took 6000 a day for two weeks, then dropped back to 3000. It took about
> a month for most of the benefits above to occur. It isn't an overnight
> thing. Also keep in mind that the dosage levels reported above are for a
> 200 pound male. The lowest reported level of adverse effects is at 10,000
> per day for 90 days or more, but other studies suggest that 20,000 a day
> is safe, so don't be concerned about overdoing it at the levels mentioned
> above.
>
> A number of clinical studies have shown D to be a major factor in the
> body's regulating blood pressure, among many other cardiovascular
> benefits, including reducing arrythmia and tachycardia. See:
>
> http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/sep2007_report_vitamind_01.htm
> and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Cardiovascular_disease
>
> The first link is the most objective, credible, and complete summary I've
> found. The second is more brief and focused on cardiovascular effects.
>
> Let the doctors pursuing your symptoms know that you have started D
> supplemtation. They may want to wait for awhile to see if your symptoms
> spontaneously improve or resolve.

Good idea - I'll tell them! Thank you so much for all this excellent
information. I'm going to these websites now.

>
> Hopefully, your symptoms will fade away over time.

Would you believe I feel better already? :-)

>
> Allan
>
> --
> One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
> ---
> True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
> that they claim for themselves.
>
> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>
>

Bill Graham
December 21st 09, 03:21 AM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> I'd also recommend a 25-Hydroxy Vitamin D assay, as over 9 of 10 of us
> oldsters have been found clinically deficient in a vitamin that spans many
> bodily systems, due to an antiquated Minimum Daily Requirement (MDR) of
> 400 IU from the FDA. Correcting that probelm resolved a number of
> mysterious symptoms that had been with me for years. I now take 3000 IU
> (total content of all supplemental sources), plus any in my diet. Old skin
> doesn't make much from the sun anymore.
>
> After 18 months of study of a decade of Vitamin D international research,
> the FDA is due to update its recommendation (currently 400 IU/day) in May
> of 2010. It is widely anticipated they will increase it by at least
> fivefold.
>
> Allan

I could probably benefit greatly from this, because I had a job that kept me
"in the dark" in a closed, air-conditioned control room for many years, and
most of my hobbies were also indoor ones. (Playing the trumpet, for example)
So, it is likely that I have been starved for vitamin D. I did buy a
motorcycle when I contracted Psoriasis back in the 80's, but they soon after
instituted a helmet law, that forced me to cover up to the extent that it
did me very little good to ride anywhere anyway.

Bill Graham
December 21st 09, 03:25 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Meggie has long, and very fine hair, but she doesn't seem to
>>> shed.....She
>> developed this lump in her abdomen, and it grew and grew, so we called
>> the vet. They scheduled her for an operation, and since Meggie had
>> stopped eating, it was very soon. They told us that if it was contained,
>> they would remove it, but if it had metastasized, they would just put her
>> to sleep on the operating table. We were very worried, and waited by the
>> telephone to find out how it went....When we got the call, they said that
>> her stomach was huge, and had filled up her entire abdominal cavity, so
>> they opened it up, and found.......A huge hairball!! So they removed it,
>> and she would be fine. That was two years ago, and she hasn't had any
>> problems since, but at $800 a whack, we would a lot sooner put up with
>> her eating butter out of the butter dish.....:^)
>
> I have heard stories like this before. I was told years ago that cats
> with access to grass will use that to get rid of hairballs. The grass
> tangles with the swallowed hair, and having a roughness, can be barffed
> up. They barff up a mixed tangled ball of hair and grass. I have seen
> some of my old outdoor/indoor cats barff up these tangles. Hair alone is
> too slimy and slick and compressible, so isn't easily brought up.
>
> I don't recall hairballs being much of a problem years ago.
>
> How old was Maggie when this happened?
About 5 or 6.....The hairball was full of a mixture of hair and grass, so
she did try to barf it up, but I guess it just blocked her stomach at both
ends, so there was nothing else we could do.

Bill Graham
December 21st 09, 03:37 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Excessive amounts of Mg generally produce the same symptoms as low
>>> calcium levels, as Ca and Mg are antagonists to each other, must be
>>> maintained in balance. An excess of one results in an apparent
>>> deficiency of the other. Mg toxicity tends to procuce low blood
>>> pressure, heart irregularities, weak appetite, and chronic diarrhea.
>>
>> Hummmmm.....I wonder if this is also true with Humans? I have had
>> heartburn all of my adult life, and have taken Mylanta for it. Mylanta is
>> a mixture of Aluminum and magnesium hydroxide, .....
>
> Heartburn is almost always caused by diet. Obesity aggravates it. Rich
> foods high carbohydrates and spicy foods also aggravate and can cause it.
> You may want to try a more bland and healthy diet.
>
> so I have been ingesting magnesium most of
>> my life, and my blood pressure is quite low.....Amazingly low for an
>> overweight 74 year old......Perhaps this is a result of my magnesium
>> intake?
>> I also have an irregular heartbeat. (come to think of it)
>
> You may want to check these things out with your Dr. Seriously!
>
My regular doctor is the endocrinologist I see for my diabetes, and he is
happy with my low blood pressure, because diabetics frequently develop
kidney problems, and the only (apparently) known help for your kidneys is to
keep the blood pressure low. My irregular heartbeat has been around for a
long time, but I don't know what they can do about it.....It isn't so
irregular that they are worried about it......I used to know a guy (in
college) who's heart would go into palpitation, and beat very fast.....He
could sit down, put his head in his hands and just with mental power, stop
it from palpitating.....He did this several times for us (his fraternity
brothers) so we knew it worked. He couldn't start it, but he could stop it.
Once, he tried to get into his doctors office to show him that he could do
this, but the doctor was too busy to see him. (Typical for US medicine...:^)
After about an hour and a half, he had to stop it himself.

Bill Graham
December 21st 09, 03:41 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
> I am lucky that I have a good health insurance
>> plan, and I see an endocrinologist for my diabetes on a regular basis.
>
> It sounds like you were on the typical "American" diet all your life.

Yes....I have always eaten like there was no tomorrow....:^) Luckily, my
mom and wives have been good cooks, and I don't eat a lot of fast food, but
I tend toward the spicy and exotic.....I like Thai restaurants.....

Bill Graham
December 21st 09, 03:47 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I'd also recommend a 25-Hydroxy Vitamin D assay, as over 9 of 10 of us
>> oldsters have been found clinically deficient in a vitamin that spans
>> many bodily systems, due to an antiquated Minimum Daily Requirement (MDR)
>> of 400 IU from the FDA. Correcting that probelm resolved a number of
>> mysterious symptoms that had been with me for years. I now take 3000 IU
>> (total content of all supplemental sources), plus any in my diet. Old
>> skin doesn't make much from the sun anymore.
>
> We just started taking Vitamin D on the suggestion of my husband's Dr at
> the VA Hosp. I've been having strange heart symptoms the past few years.
> All they tell me is the tests are inconclusive, nothing is really found.
> It's very frustrating and I have more tests on the 22nd. My BP goes up and
> down for no apparent reason. It used to always be around 120/80. Now it
> can be from that to as high as 155/85. Up and down. Sometimes my heart
> races for no apparent reason, or pounds. Sometimes it skips a beat.
> Sometimes when I'm walking fast or going upstairs it feels like I can feel
> my heartbeat in the base of my throat! A strange pounding at the front
> and base of my neck. I don't understand why they can't find the cause or
> problem. :(

Some of these symptoms might be perfectly normal.....I have had all of these
for the last 30 years or so, and I am 74 and still going strong....Be
careful that you don't become a hypochondriac, and/or spend too much time
worrying about something you can really do nothing about.....I decided a
long time ago that it is a waste of time to worry too much about that which
I can't do anything about......After all, we are all going to drop dead
sooner or later, so we might as well just enjoy life while we are
here........

Kelly Green[_3_]
December 21st 09, 09:06 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
> ...
>> We just started taking Vitamin D on the suggestion of my husband's Dr at
>> the VA Hosp. I've been having strange heart symptoms the past few years.
>> All they tell me is the tests are inconclusive, nothing is really found.
>> It's very frustrating and I have more tests on the 22nd. My BP goes up
>> and down for no apparent reason. It used to always be around 120/80. Now
>> it can be from that to as high as 155/85. Up and down. Sometimes my
>> heart races for no apparent reason, or pounds. Sometimes it skips a
>> beat. Sometimes when I'm walking fast or going upstairs it feels like I
>> can feel my heartbeat in the base of my throat! A strange pounding at
>> the front and base of my neck. I don't understand why they can't find the
>> cause or problem. :(
>
> Some of these symptoms might be perfectly normal.....I have had all of
> these for the last 30 years or so, and I am 74 and still going
> strong....Be careful that you don't become a hypochondriac, and/or spend
> too much time worrying about something you can really do nothing
> about.....I decided a long time ago that it is a waste of time to worry
> too much about that which I can't do anything about......After all, we are
> all going to drop dead sooner or later, so we might as well just enjoy
> life while we are here........


I don't actually worry too much about them as they don't occur all the time
or every day. Since I've been taking a mineral mix the symptoms have not
been quite as bad. I've also cut back quite a bit on my coffee "habit."
I've switched to caffeine free. That stopped the premature beat. I'll be
seeing the Dr this week for more tests. :

Kelly Green[_3_]
December 21st 09, 09:12 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>> I am lucky that I have a good health insurance
>>> plan, and I see an endocrinologist for my diabetes on a regular basis.
>>
>> It sounds like you were on the typical "American" diet all your life.
>
> Yes....I have always eaten like there was no tomorrow....:^) Luckily, my
> mom and wives have been good cooks, and I don't eat a lot of fast food,
> but I tend toward the spicy and exotic.....I like Thai restaurants.....

Some Drs are all but getting people off insulin injections using diet alone.
I think that's wonderful as it extends the diabetic's life and avoids all
the other health issues they're prone to. It's a very low-carb diet so the
person must be dedicated to following it and giving up unhealthy foods that
are killing us. Too much refined carbohydrates (starches/sugars) in our
diet... more than ever before. I learned that humans don't even need carbs
in their diet since we can make our own from proteins as do many far
northern peoples. We would get more than enough from a simple salad or cup
of cooked green beans or broccoli.

Bill Graham
December 21st 09, 09:35 AM
"Kelly Green" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>> I am lucky that I have a good health insurance
>>>> plan, and I see an endocrinologist for my diabetes on a regular basis.
>>>
>>> It sounds like you were on the typical "American" diet all your life.
>>
>> Yes....I have always eaten like there was no tomorrow....:^) Luckily, my
>> mom and wives have been good cooks, and I don't eat a lot of fast food,
>> but I tend toward the spicy and exotic.....I like Thai restaurants.....
>
> Some Drs are all but getting people off insulin injections using diet
> alone. I think that's wonderful as it extends the diabetic's life and
> avoids all the other health issues they're prone to. It's a very low-carb
> diet so the person must be dedicated to following it and giving up
> unhealthy foods that are killing us. Too much refined carbohydrates
> (starches/sugars) in our diet... more than ever before. I learned that
> humans don't even need carbs in their diet since we can make our own from
> proteins as do many far northern peoples. We would get more than enough
> from a simple salad or cup of cooked green beans or broccoli.

That's true. the body makes lots of things out of what food it gets.....One
of my favorite examples is Cholesterol.....cows make lots of it out of
(apparently) nothing but grass! My diabetes is so called, "type 2", so I am
not insulin dependent. And, as you say, when I eat right, I don't even need
any pills to compensate.....Or, to put it another way, the pills allow me to
eat like there was no tomorrow....:^) As I get older, I tend to eat less and
better quality food, so my diabetes seems to be getting better, but I know
this is just because I am eating better.

Allan Smith
December 21st 09, 04:41 PM
Kelly,

> WOW!!! I'm so happy you had such good results from a supplement. I'm
> taking
> 1000 is plus 500mg calcium. I also drink at least 2 cups of fat-free milk
> each day. I probably should increase the calcium.

I guess I've become a bit evangelical about D. You can probaly tell that I
do my homework and reseach, yet even though I was well aware of the recent
research, I was very surprised at my low level, and most pleasantly
surprised at the results of treatment.

Add up all the D from all your supplements. Check you calcium supplement's
label to determine the amount of Vitamin D that has been added to it
(Vitamin D is often added to calcium supplements, because it is essential
for calcium absorption).

A glass of milk only has about 135 IU of Vitamin D, so it isn't a primary
source. Were I you, I'd be aiming for a total of 2000 IU of D per day from
supplements, plus diatary sources. If you are over 50, I'd do 3000 in
wintertime, or year-round if in the extreme northern latitudes.

Eight ounces of milk contains about 300 mg of calcium, so add your various
sources and be sure you're getting 1500 mg per day. If you enjoy yogurt, a
cup of it has about 400 mg of calcium, but unless fortified, only 40 IU of
Vitamin D. Again, check the label.

> Good idea - I'll tell them! Thank you so much for all this excellent
> information. I'm going to these websites now.

I'd ask for a check of your 25-hydroxy Viatmin D. It will help you determine
the correct suplementation. Most recommend a minimum of 32 ng/ml, but some
say it should be closer to 50. I'm happy with the 43 for now. It will be
rechecked in 6 months, and annually thereafter. Keep in mind that the result
of the test will be determined by the last month or so of supplementation,
so pick a stable level and stay on it for at least a month before the check
(for reference, each 1000 IU of additional D3 raises the 25-hydroxy by 8 to
12 points).

The FDA is due to release the results of a 18-month study of the last decade
of studies in May of next years. Keep an eye out for it. If, as expected,
they raise the RDA, multivitamins will eventually reformulate to it.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Kelly Green" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Kelly,

Allan Smith
December 21st 09, 04:46 PM
Bill,

Here comes the Vitamin D Evangelist again. <g>

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/135257.php

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15971062

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
news:dOadnWXi6cLdfbPWnZ2dnUVZ_q-

cybercat
December 21st 09, 07:38 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote
> The FDA is due to release the results of a 18-month study of the last
> decade of studies in May of next years. Keep an eye out for it. If, as
> expected, they raise the RDA, multivitamins will eventually reformulate to
> it.
>

Anyone who visits a physician for regular checkups has been getting Vit. D
shoved down their throats for a couple of years now. It seems EVERYONE is
deficient. I think it's another fashion in nutrition.

Allan Smith
December 21st 09, 10:56 PM
cyberkat,

> Anyone who visits a physician for regular checkups has been getting Vit. D
> shoved down their throats for a couple of years now. It seems EVERYONE is
> deficient. I think it's another fashion in nutrition.

I've reviewed the science, and I find it sound. The US is now doing what
Europe did years ago.

As has long been typical, our medicine is lagging well behind global
science. Many studies have been repeated here using taxpayer dollars, and
reached the same conclusions as studies done years ago elsewhere.

I've found that US medicine has a serious case of the not-invented-here (or,
not discovered by us) syndrome, and nobody can reinvent the wheel quite like
the US and it's Federal Reserach Grants.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan Smith" > wrote

cybercat
December 21st 09, 11:30 PM
"Allan Smith" > wrote
>

>
> I've found that US medicine has a serious case of the not-invented-here
> (or, not discovered by us) syndrome, and nobody can reinvent the wheel
> quite like the US and it's Federal Reserach Grants.
>

This is generally true.

Kelly Greene
December 22nd 09, 07:56 AM
"Allan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd ask for a check of your 25-hydroxy Viatmin D. It will help you
> determine the correct suplementation. Most recommend a minimum of 32
> ng/ml, but some say it should be closer to 50. I'm happy with the 43 for
> now. It will be rechecked in 6 months, and annually thereafter. Keep in
> mind that the result of the test will be determined by the last month or
> so of supplementation, so pick a stable level and stay on it for at least
> a month before the check (for reference, each 1000 IU of additional D3
> raises the 25-hydroxy by 8 to 12 points).
>
> The FDA is due to release the results of a 18-month study of the last
> decade of studies in May of next years. Keep an eye out for it. If, as
> expected, they raise the RDA, multivitamins will eventually reformulate to
> it.
>
> Allan

I'm definitely going to speak to my Dr about it since my heart symptoms have
improved greatly. I'll see what he or she says tomorrow. I'm not sure where
they'll send me for the actual tests of my carotid arteries etc.

dgk
December 22nd 09, 04:40 PM
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:30:32 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"Allan Smith" > wrote
>>
>
>>
>> I've found that US medicine has a serious case of the not-invented-here
>> (or, not discovered by us) syndrome, and nobody can reinvent the wheel
>> quite like the US and it's Federal Reserach Grants.
>>
>
>This is generally true.
>

I find it odd whenever a dose of something is recommended that is far
above what we could get in nature. We evolved with certain norms and
we probably operate best staying within those norms. That certainly
isn't so say that we can't do better than we did as cave people, but I
treat excesses as the exception.

We likely are somewhat deficient in Vitamin D because we don't get the
sun exposure we once did - and hopefully have less skin cancer because
of that.

Allan Smith
December 23rd 09, 02:24 PM
dgk,

> We likely are somewhat deficient in Vitamin D because we don't get the
> sun exposure we once did

Correct, and the recommedations for using sunscreen have exacerbated the
problem in recent years.

With 25% skin exposure, the average adult produces about 10,000 IU per hour
(SPF 15 will reduce that by over 90%). That might seem to be a recipe for
overdose, but as the skin tans, it reduces the depth of penetration of
ultraviolet, and the production decreases. Thus, a tanned individual using
SPF 15 produces essentially no D, even in full sunlight.

Some of the earliest clues of the importance of D came from a search for
dieases and conditions whose incidence was relatively consistent year-round
in people living near the equator, but which showed an increasingly stong
winter-prevalence the further north that people lived. A surprising number
were identified.

It was those studies that prompted researchers to begin to investigate
whether Vitamin D played a role in those conditions having a distinct
seasonal pattern in northern latitiudes, but not near the equator. The
strongest pattern existed in the incidence of cardiovascular issues, btw.

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:30:32 -0500, "cybercat" >
> wrote:

dgk
December 24th 09, 02:51 PM
On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:24:22 -0500, "Allan Smith"
> wrote:

>dgk,
>
>> We likely are somewhat deficient in Vitamin D because we don't get the
>> sun exposure we once did
>
>Correct, and the recommedations for using sunscreen have exacerbated the
>problem in recent years.
>
>With 25% skin exposure, the average adult produces about 10,000 IU per hour
>(SPF 15 will reduce that by over 90%). That might seem to be a recipe for
>overdose, but as the skin tans, it reduces the depth of penetration of
>ultraviolet, and the production decreases. Thus, a tanned individual using
>SPF 15 produces essentially no D, even in full sunlight.
>
>Some of the earliest clues of the importance of D came from a search for
>dieases and conditions whose incidence was relatively consistent year-round
>in people living near the equator, but which showed an increasingly stong
>winter-prevalence the further north that people lived. A surprising number
>were identified.
>
>It was those studies that prompted researchers to begin to investigate
>whether Vitamin D played a role in those conditions having a distinct
>seasonal pattern in northern latitiudes, but not near the equator. The
>strongest pattern existed in the incidence of cardiovascular issues, btw.
>
>Allan


That makes sense. I go surfing during the warmer weather so I
practically live at the beach. But I always bring an umbrella and
hardly ever just lay in the sun. Still, there isn't much you can do if
you're going to be sitting on a surfboard for a few hours - you're
going to get some sun and the best sun screen (I use the Bullfrog
stuff) is going to wear off.

But in the winter? I need the pills.

Phil P.
December 25th 09, 05:19 AM
"Kelly Green" > wrote in message
. com...
> Has anyone any idea how to prevent these problems in castrated cats?
Spirit
> will be the first castrated male I've had since the 1960s. I had a male
with
> endless urethral blockage problems back then and I vowed I'd never adopt
> another male cat or have one "fixed." Now I find myself probably keeping
> Spirit who will be fixed at the vet clinic tomorrow. What is the
recommended
> diet these days to help prevent his painful condition? I know the vet I
> worked for in the 70s believed it was due to poor diet and secondarily by
> the castration itself causing the urethra to shrink and narrow. Any ideas?

Your vet was right about diet - and wrong about neutering "causing the
urethra to shrink and narrow" although that myth was very popular back in
the '70s. Neutering has absolutely no effect urethral diameter or urethral
pressure.

Just feed you cats a meat based canned diet that contain as little plant
material as possible. Meat acidifies the urine which dissolves struvite
naturally, but plant material has an alkalinizing effect which promotes
struvite.
Phil

Kelly Greene
December 25th 09, 08:35 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> Your vet was right about diet - and wrong about neutering "causing the
> urethra to shrink and narrow" although that myth was very popular back in
> the '70s. Neutering has absolutely no effect urethral diameter or urethral
> pressure.
>

> Just feed you cats a meat based canned diet that contain as little plant
> material as possible. Meat acidifies the urine which dissolves struvite
> naturally, but plant material has an alkalinizing effect which promotes
> struvite.
> Phil
>


Is there any studies showing that a high meat canned or possibly raw meat
diet prevents the crystal formation? What about those who live where the
water is alkaline and loaded with calcium?

Kelly Greene
December 25th 09, 08:37 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> Just feed you cats a meat based canned diet that contain as little plant
> material as possible. Meat acidifies the urine which dissolves struvite
> naturally, but plant material has an alkalinizing effect which promotes
> struvite.
> Phil
>

I asked about a research site to sent to my DIL and some cat owning friends.
I'm trying to get everyone I know to switch their cats to canned food.

Phil P.
December 26th 09, 01:57 PM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Your vet was right about diet - and wrong about neutering "causing the
> > urethra to shrink and narrow" although that myth was very popular back
in
> > the '70s. Neutering has absolutely no effect urethral diameter or
urethral
> > pressure.
> >
>
> > Just feed you cats a meat based canned diet that contain as little plant
> > material as possible. Meat acidifies the urine which dissolves struvite
> > naturally, but plant material has an alkalinizing effect which promotes
> > struvite.
> > Phil
> >
>
>
> Is there any studies showing that a high meat canned or possibly raw meat
> diet prevents the crystal formation? What about those who live where the
> water is alkaline and loaded with calcium?

I'm running late and don't have time to dig through my files- but this
should suffice:

J Feline Med Surg. 2001 Jun;3(2):81-5.

An investigation into the effects of storage on the diagnosis of
crystalluria in cats.
Sturgess CP, Hesford A, Owen H, Privett R.

Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford,
Bristol BS40 5DU, UK.

"Urinalysis was performed on 41 cats with no history of urinary tract
disease. Samples were divided into aliquots, stored under differing
condition and then examined for the presence of crystalluria. Crystalluria
was detected in at least one stored sample in 92% of cats fed a mixed
wet/dry food diet compared to 24% in the fresh sample. Crystalluria was not
detected in any sample or aliquot from cats fed all wet food diets."


Here're a few excerpts from the Veterinary Clinical Pathology Clerkship
Program at the University of Georgia:

"The pH of urine can vary depending on an animal's diet as well as its
acid-base status. For example, animals that primarily eat high protein
meat-based diets will have acidic urine. On the other hand, animals that eat
more vegetable-based diets will have an alkaline urine."

"Causes of acidic urine include: meat diet, systemic acidosis,
hypochloridemia, and administration of acidifying agents such as
d,l-methionine or NH4Cl. Urine with high concentrations of glucose may have
a lower pH. This is due to bacterial metabolism of glucose and and
production of ammonia which lowers pH.

"Causes of alkaline urine include: vegetable based diet, bacterial infection
of urease-producing bacteria, systemic alkalosis, urine exposed to room air
for an extended time (loss of CO2), and administration of alkalinizing
agents including citrate or NaHCO."

http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/CLERK/Sine/index.php

cybercat
December 26th 09, 08:47 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > Your vet was right about diet - and wrong about neutering "causing the
>> > urethra to shrink and narrow" although that myth was very popular back
> in
>> > the '70s. Neutering has absolutely no effect urethral diameter or
> urethral
>> > pressure.
>> >
>>
>> > Just feed you cats a meat based canned diet that contain as little
>> > plant
>> > material as possible. Meat acidifies the urine which dissolves struvite
>> > naturally, but plant material has an alkalinizing effect which promotes
>> > struvite.
>> > Phil
>> >
>>
>>
>> Is there any studies showing that a high meat canned or possibly raw meat
>> diet prevents the crystal formation? What about those who live where the
>> water is alkaline and loaded with calcium?
>
> I'm running late and don't have time to dig through my files- but this
> should suffice:
>
> J Feline Med Surg. 2001 Jun;3(2):81-5.
>
> An investigation into the effects of storage on the diagnosis of
> crystalluria in cats.
> Sturgess CP, Hesford A, Owen H, Privett R.
>
> Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol,
> Langford,
> Bristol BS40 5DU, UK.
>
> "Urinalysis was performed on 41 cats with no history of urinary tract
> disease. Samples were divided into aliquots, stored under differing
> condition and then examined for the presence of crystalluria. Crystalluria
> was detected in at least one stored sample in 92% of cats fed a mixed
> wet/dry food diet compared to 24% in the fresh sample. Crystalluria was
> not
> detected in any sample or aliquot from cats fed all wet food diets."
>
>
> Here're a few excerpts from the Veterinary Clinical Pathology Clerkship
> Program at the University of Georgia:
>
> "The pH of urine can vary depending on an animal's diet as well as its
> acid-base status. For example, animals that primarily eat high protein
> meat-based diets will have acidic urine. On the other hand, animals that
> eat
> more vegetable-based diets will have an alkaline urine."
>
> "Causes of acidic urine include: meat diet, systemic acidosis,
> hypochloridemia, and administration of acidifying agents such as
> d,l-methionine or NH4Cl. Urine with high concentrations of glucose may
> have
> a lower pH. This is due to bacterial metabolism of glucose and and
> production of ammonia which lowers pH.
>
> "Causes of alkaline urine include: vegetable based diet, bacterial
> infection
> of urease-producing bacteria, systemic alkalosis, urine exposed to room
> air
> for an extended time (loss of CO2), and administration of alkalinizing
> agents including citrate or NaHCO."
>
> http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/CLERK/Sine/index.php
>
>
Nice of you to do her homework for her, Phil.

jmc
December 27th 09, 02:17 AM
Suddenly, without warning, Kelly Greene exclaimed (12/25/2009 2:35 AM):
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Your vet was right about diet - and wrong about neutering "causing the
>> urethra to shrink and narrow" although that myth was very popular back in
>> the '70s. Neutering has absolutely no effect urethral diameter or
>> urethral
>> pressure.
>>
>
>> Just feed you cats a meat based canned diet that contain as little plant
>> material as possible. Meat acidifies the urine which dissolves struvite
>> naturally, but plant material has an alkalinizing effect which promotes
>> struvite.
>> Phil
>>
>
>
> Is there any studies showing that a high meat canned or possibly raw
> meat diet prevents the crystal formation? What about those who live
> where the water is alkaline and loaded with calcium?

I don't know about studies, but when I lived in an area that had a high
mineral content in the water, my vet suggested I provide my cat filtered
or bottled water to prevent urinary problems such as cystitis.

However, at that point she was still on a dry diet, so though we might
have staved off the inevitable a few years, she still developed the
disease and continued to have attacks until she was on a full canned
food diet.

jmc