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Mark Earnest
January 9th 10, 04:06 AM
It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.

Well, consider this.

My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I play
with, with my adolescent cat.

Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
of any of our fastest computers!

Netmask[_2_]
January 9th 10, 04:51 AM
On 9/01/2010 15:06, Mark Earnest wrote:
> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> Well, consider this.
>
> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I play
> with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> of any of our fastest computers!
>
>
It was just coincedance but a very gullible but sincere friend of mine
was playing with my 8 month old Burmese - unfortunately he is a bit of a
biter unlike all my previous Burmese - he started to do some friendly
nips and I said "DON"T BITE - LICK" Meko immediately started licking my
friends hand... my friend was duly amazed an is dining out on the story
- he is in the media..

Mark Earnest
January 9th 10, 05:14 AM
"Netmask" > wrote in message
...
> On 9/01/2010 15:06, Mark Earnest wrote:
>> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
>> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
>> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>>
>> Well, consider this.
>>
>> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
>> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
>> play
>> with, with my adolescent cat.
>>
>> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>> of any of our fastest computers!
>>
>>
> It was just coincedance but a very gullible but sincere friend of mine was
> playing with my 8 month old Burmese - unfortunately he is a bit of a biter
> unlike all my previous Burmese - he started to do some friendly nips and I
> said "DON"T BITE - LICK" Meko immediately started licking my friends
> hand... my friend was duly amazed an is dining out on the story - he is in
> the media..

Anything can happen to those that believe...you believed the animal
would understand, and he did. Yes, I think it does prove his intelligence.
Maybe animals can talk but are usually just determined to do things
their own way.

Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds
January 9th 10, 07:33 AM
In article
<[email protected]
..internetamerica>,
"Mark Earnest" >
wrote:

> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> Well, consider this.
>
> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I play
> with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> of any of our fastest computers!

I'm not saying cats aren't smart, but my
computer is capable of billions of
calculations per second...and I can
pretty much tell where the toy on the
end of the string on the end of the
stick is going and do it pretty damn fast

Mark Earnest
January 9th 10, 07:39 AM
"Malcom "Mal" Reynolds" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> <[email protected]
> .internetamerica>,
> "Mark Earnest" >
> wrote:
>
>> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
>> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
>> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>>
>> Well, consider this.
>>
>> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
>> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
>> play
>> with, with my adolescent cat.
>>
>> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>> of any of our fastest computers!
>
> I'm not saying cats aren't smart, but my
> computer is capable of billions of
> calculations per second...and I can
> pretty much tell where the toy on the
> end of the string on the end of the
> stick is going and do it pretty damn fast

Well, I'm sure that people are smarter than cats
in very many ways...I wasn't challenging that.

Play with a cat, though, and watch it calculate whether it can
leap from your computer desk to your foot crossed by your leg,
and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
and then let it chase a suspended toy...you will see the millions of tiny
wheels in action if you use a little imagination. :)

January 9th 10, 03:19 PM
On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
> wrote:

>
>Play with a cat, though, and watch it calculate whether it can
>leap from your computer desk to your foot crossed by your leg,
>and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
>and then let it chase a suspended toy...you will see the millions of tiny
>wheels in action if you use a little imagination. :)

Many years ago I had an orange tabby named Murphy. I was replacing a
deck and had stripped the decking, leaving only the stairs and the
joists. Undeterred by the lack of an actual floor, Murphy would come
up the stairs and walk one of the joists to get to the kitchen door.
One day I saw him lose his balance and fall about six feet to the
ground below. He picked himself up, regained his composure, then spent
several seconds staring up at the the joists as if analyzing the
reason for his fall. He then went back to the stairs, climbed up to a
nearby double joist, and easily walked that wider pathway to the door.

I swear I could see his mind working as he figured it out.

Stan Brown
January 9th 10, 04:35 PM
Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:06:29 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>:
> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> of any of our fastest computers!

Gee, it's sorta like a person running to where a thrown or batted
ball WILL BE. Do you think some athletes can see into the future?

Seriously, cats have excellent reflexes and agility. But no matter
how we love them, we can't claim that they're intelligent.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 9th 10, 04:41 PM
Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>:
> Play with a cat, though, and watch it calculate whether it can
> leap from your computer desk to your foot crossed by your leg,

You're not counting the number of times they get such calculations
wrong. We've all seen these graceful animals take an easy jump and
miss it, on occasion. Admittedly, more often than not they do get
things right; and occasionally they do some amazing physical things.

> and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,

Again, you're not counting all the times they meow when not hungry.
Milo (who will probably get renamed Destructo the Visigoth, after he
shredded the flexible metal hose venting my clothes dryer to the
outdoors) meows all the time, when he's hungry and when he's not,
when he wants to get picked up and when he doesn't, when he's bored
and wants to play and when he wants to be left alone. It drove me
crazy until finally I realized he was just talking to himself because
he likes the sound of his own voice. (No, he's not Siamese -- plain
old tabby.)


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Mark Earnest
January 10th 10, 05:53 AM
> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>Play with a cat, though, and watch it calculate whether it can
>>leap from your computer desk to your foot crossed by your leg,
>>and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
>>and then let it chase a suspended toy...you will see the millions of tiny
>>wheels in action if you use a little imagination. :)
>
> Many years ago I had an orange tabby named Murphy. I was replacing a
> deck and had stripped the decking, leaving only the stairs and the
> joists. Undeterred by the lack of an actual floor, Murphy would come
> up the stairs and walk one of the joists to get to the kitchen door.
> One day I saw him lose his balance and fall about six feet to the
> ground below. He picked himself up, regained his composure, then spent
> several seconds staring up at the the joists as if analyzing the
> reason for his fall. He then went back to the stairs, climbed up to a
> nearby double joist, and easily walked that wider pathway to the door.
>
> I swear I could see his mind working as he figured it out.

I wish more people would see their intelligence. And maybe the blonde
orange tabbies do have a lot of fun.


Yes, that shows amazing intelligence in a feline. Every time I let a cat
in, it has to explore every surface of the house, no matter how high or low
or deep. They have to analyze every single situation, for some reason.

Mark Earnest
January 10th 10, 05:56 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> >:
>> Play with a cat, though, and watch it calculate whether it can
>> leap from your computer desk to your foot crossed by your leg,
>
> You're not counting the number of times they get such calculations
> wrong. We've all seen these graceful animals take an easy jump and
> miss it, on occasion. Admittedly, more often than not they do get
> things right; and occasionally they do some amazing physical things.

When the felines miss a calculated jump, it just tells me that they are
courageous animals, not that they are dumb.


>
>> and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
>
> Again, you're not counting all the times they meow when not hungry.
> Milo (who will probably get renamed Destructo the Visigoth, after he
> shredded the flexible metal hose venting my clothes dryer to the
> outdoors) meows all the time, when he's hungry and when he's not,
> when he wants to get picked up and when he doesn't, when he's bored
> and wants to play and when he wants to be left alone. It drove me
> crazy until finally I realized he was just talking to himself because
> he likes the sound of his own voice. (No, he's not Siamese -- plain
> old tabby.)

Maybe he doesn't understand why you don't comprehend his language. :)

Mark Earnest
January 10th 10, 05:58 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:06:29 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> >:
>> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>> of any of our fastest computers!
>
> Gee, it's sorta like a person running to where a thrown or batted
> ball WILL BE. Do you think some athletes can see into the future?
>
> Seriously, cats have excellent reflexes and agility. But no matter
> how we love them, we can't claim that they're intelligent.

**I see it as if their intelligence is geared into their reflexes and
agility.

Bill Graham
January 10th 10, 07:21 AM
"Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
netamerica...
> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> Well, consider this.
>
> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> play with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> of any of our fastest computers!
>

Yes. - Several million years of catching birds can do wonderful things......

Bill Graham
January 10th 10, 07:27 AM
"Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Netmask" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 9/01/2010 15:06, Mark Earnest wrote:
>>> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
>>> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
>>> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>>>
>>> Well, consider this.
>>>
>>> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
>>> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
>>> play
>>> with, with my adolescent cat.
>>>
>>> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>>> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>>> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>>> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>>> of any of our fastest computers!
>>>
>>>
>> It was just coincedance but a very gullible but sincere friend of mine
>> was playing with my 8 month old Burmese - unfortunately he is a bit of a
>> biter unlike all my previous Burmese - he started to do some friendly
>> nips and I said "DON"T BITE - LICK" Meko immediately started licking my
>> friends hand... my friend was duly amazed an is dining out on the story -
>> he is in the media..
>
> Anything can happen to those that believe...you believed the animal
> would understand, and he did. Yes, I think it does prove his
> intelligence.
> Maybe animals can talk but are usually just determined to do things
> their own way.
>
Yes. When I call my B-K, he pays absolutely no attention to me, just like my
other 4 cats. But when B-K is down the block somewhere, and I go out on the
front porch and blow my dog whistle three times, after 3 or 4 minutes, he
comes running down the block and comes up on the porch and says (in catese,
of course) "What do you want, Dad?"

Bill Graham
January 10th 10, 07:42 AM
"Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
ca...
>
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:06:29 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>> >:
>>> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>>> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>>> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>>> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>>> of any of our fastest computers!
>>
>> Gee, it's sorta like a person running to where a thrown or batted
>> ball WILL BE. Do you think some athletes can see into the future?
>>
>> Seriously, cats have excellent reflexes and agility. But no matter
>> how we love them, we can't claim that they're intelligent.
>
> **I see it as if their intelligence is geared into their reflexes and
> agility.
>
They bank heavily on experience, however....When my Meggie jumps from the
back of the couch over a chair to the dining room table, she thinks about it
for 10 or 20 seconds before jumping, and one of the things she thinks about
is the landing spot. It has to be a clear spot, and she prefers a place mat
to the tablecloth, because our placemats have a rubberized bottom so they
tend to stick, but the tablecloth will skid under her feet, and she may
slide halfway across the table. I know she thinks about these things,
because I have seen her make hundreds of these jumps, and now she has become
very good at it, and seldom misses for any reason.

Stan Brown
January 10th 10, 02:38 PM
Sat, 9 Jan 2010 23:56:24 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>:
>
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
> > Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> > >:
> >
> >> and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
> >
> > Again, you're not counting all the times they meow when not hungry.
> > Milo (who will probably get renamed Destructo the Visigoth, after he
> > shredded the flexible metal hose venting my clothes dryer to the
> > outdoors) meows all the time, when he's hungry and when he's not,
> > when he wants to get picked up and when he doesn't, when he's bored
> > and wants to play and when he wants to be left alone. It drove me
> > crazy until finally I realized he was just talking to himself because
> > he likes the sound of his own voice. (No, he's not Siamese -- plain
> > old tabby.)
>
> Maybe he doesn't understand why you don't comprehend his language. :)

LOL -- I've actually had that thought. I talk to him a lot, as I
imagine most people do to their animals, and sometimes when he just
sits there staring at me I can almost hear him saying, "What do you
want? Can't you say it in plain Cat?"


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 10th 10, 02:39 PM
Sat, 9 Jan 2010 23:27:31 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
> Yes. When I call my B-K, he pays absolutely no attention to me,
> just like my other 4 cats. But when B-K is down the block
> somewhere, and I go out on the front porch and blow my dog whistle
> three times, after 3 or 4 minutes, he comes running down the block
> and comes up on the porch and says (in catese, of course) "What do
> you want, Dad?"

Maybe. But maybe he's saying, "Okay, you rang the dinner bell.
Where's my food?"

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds
January 10th 10, 08:28 PM
In article
<[email protected]
..internetamerica>,
"Mark Earnest" >
wrote:

> "Malcom "Mal" Reynolds" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article
> > <[email protected]
> > .internetamerica>,
> > "Mark Earnest" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> >> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> >> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
> >>
> >> Well, consider this.
> >>
> >> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> >> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> >> play
> >> with, with my adolescent cat.
> >>
> >> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> >> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> >> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> >> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> >> of any of our fastest computers!
> >
> > I'm not saying cats aren't smart, but my
> > computer is capable of billions of
> > calculations per second...and I can
> > pretty much tell where the toy on the
> > end of the string on the end of the
> > stick is going and do it pretty damn fast
>
> Well, I'm sure that people are smarter than cats
> in very many ways...I wasn't challenging that.
>
> Play with a cat, though, and watch it calculate whether it can
> leap from your computer desk to your foot crossed by your leg,
> and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
> and then let it chase a suspended toy...you will see the millions of tiny
> wheels in action if you use a little imagination. :)

No doubt.

--

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Vivamus lacinia scelerisque ultricies.
Nunc lobortis elit ligula. Aliquam
sollicitudin nunc sed est gravida ac
viverra tellus ullamcorper. Vivamus non
nisi suscipit nisi egestas venenatis.
Donec vitae arcu id urna euismod
feugiat. Vivamus porta lobortis
ultricies. Nulla adipiscing tellus a
neque vehicula porta. Maecenas volutpat
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augue dui, in mattis urna. In pretium
metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu
lorem sed odio porttitor blandit.

Mark Earnest
January 11th 10, 12:37 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sat, 9 Jan 2010 23:56:24 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> >:
>>
>> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
>> t...
>> > Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>> > >:
>> >
>> >> and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at
>> >> you,
>> >
>> > Again, you're not counting all the times they meow when not hungry.
>> > Milo (who will probably get renamed Destructo the Visigoth, after he
>> > shredded the flexible metal hose venting my clothes dryer to the
>> > outdoors) meows all the time, when he's hungry and when he's not,
>> > when he wants to get picked up and when he doesn't, when he's bored
>> > and wants to play and when he wants to be left alone. It drove me
>> > crazy until finally I realized he was just talking to himself because
>> > he likes the sound of his own voice. (No, he's not Siamese -- plain
>> > old tabby.)
>>
>> Maybe he doesn't understand why you don't comprehend his language. :)
>
> LOL -- I've actually had that thought. I talk to him a lot, as I
> imagine most people do to their animals, and sometimes when he just
> sits there staring at me I can almost hear him saying, "What do you
> want? Can't you say it in plain Cat?"

Cat language probably has a lot of body language, so to speak Cat you would
surely have to come up with some equivalent for whiskers and a tail!

Mark Earnest
January 11th 10, 12:39 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
> ca...
>>
>> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:06:29 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>>> >:
>>>> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>>>> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>>>> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>>>> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>>>> of any of our fastest computers!
>>>
>>> Gee, it's sorta like a person running to where a thrown or batted
>>> ball WILL BE. Do you think some athletes can see into the future?
>>>
>>> Seriously, cats have excellent reflexes and agility. But no matter
>>> how we love them, we can't claim that they're intelligent.
>>
>> **I see it as if their intelligence is geared into their reflexes and
>> agility.
>>
> They bank heavily on experience, however....When my Meggie jumps from the
> back of the couch over a chair to the dining room table, she thinks about
> it for 10 or 20 seconds before jumping, and one of the things she thinks
> about is the landing spot. It has to be a clear spot, and she prefers a
> place mat to the tablecloth, because our placemats have a rubberized
> bottom so they tend to stick, but the tablecloth will skid under her feet,
> and she may slide halfway across the table. I know she thinks about these
> things, because I have seen her make hundreds of these jumps, and now she
> has become very good at it, and seldom misses for any reason.

She skids on the tablecloth? I love the way cats don't mind taking chances
with their dignity. :)

The Nice Mean Man
January 11th 10, 01:50 AM
On Jan 8, 11:06*pm, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> Well, consider this.
>
> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> attached to a weight, attached to *a string, attached to a stick that I play
> with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. *A million
> calculations sizzle in her mind t once, far more than any processor
> of any of our fastest computers!

We, the wife and I, have a really smart cat, and that ain't no
bull****. People always say that about their felines, but in our case
it's really true. For instance, when he sees the wife getting out of
her work shoes, he will immediately go over, position himself in front
of them and then lay down with his little paws and legs inside of her
shoes! The he just sits there looking cool like he understands what to
do with the shoes. Another thing he likes to do; after he has been
caught in some little kitty wrong (breaking the rules) and is
scolded... as he trots away, he makes his mouth into a small circle
and 'chatters' at us! Like a child back-talking after being
chastised! I think he is smarter than most. Also, he loves to sit
upright against the hall wall. It's too ****ing weird. I'm sitting
there on the couch and I get that feeling you get when you think
someone's watching you. I turn to my right and there lo-and-behold the
little bugger is! Sitting there as if he were me sitting where I sit!
Like he's doing what he sees us doing! I always said it was because he
never knew anyone else as a model... another cat or anything... so he
thinks he's actually one of us! LOL...!!!!
More funny ****.... He has quite the large vocabulary. He will
understand what we say and then do as he is told, if you can believe
that. When we go to bed at night, all I have to say is: chop-chop" and
he gets up from where ever his is and gallops to his little bedroom
(the 2nd bedroom where he spends each night).. The funny thing is,
usually he is already in there when I exit the shower, waiting like a
dutiful child for his father's kind words of approval (which he always
gets). If he is making a nuisance of himself by begging, one only has
to command him to "go lay down". I swear, he will turn right around
and lie down in his box lid or fleece basket. Whichever's closer. He
seems to be intelligent enough to really understand the value in
gaining our approval. A plateau once reserved only for dogs and the
higher-ups, since most cats don't give a rat's ass. He is a fine cat
and a good boy! And we love him like he was our own kid.


The Nice Mean Man

Yeah... some of you probably guessed it :)

The Nice Mean Man
January 11th 10, 01:59 AM
On Jan 10, 2:21*am, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> "Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
>
> netamerica...
>
>
>
>
>
> > It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> > attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> > Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> > Well, consider this.
>
> > My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> > attached to a weight, attached to *a string, attached to a stick that I
> > play with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> > Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> > including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> > and have it before I can even start having fun myself. *A million
> > calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> > of any of our fastest computers!
>
> Yes. - Several million years of catching birds can do wonderful things.......- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Excuse me, Will... but are you any relation to the TV evangelist?
Billy Graham? How about that old-time pro wrestler.... Superstar Billy
Graham, I think it was? Or that other wrestler Eddie Graham down in
Florida? An great all-round sports personality and personal hero of
mine when I was a kid. Too bad he killed himself.
Then there's that other guy... the other Bill Graham. The rock
promoter dude. Are you any relation to him? Hes dead, too you know.
Or Graham Bond the blues cat (also deceased). Or Graham Parsons the
country rock cat (another one that went far too young). Or Graham
Nash, the whinny little liberal activist-bubblegum rock star creep.
He's still around.Used to be with that pussy group, the Hollies, I
think it was. Are you any relation to them? I mean, with a name like
that, I MUST have hit on at least one. Right?



The Nicea Meana Mana

T[_4_]
January 11th 10, 02:43 AM
In article >,
says...
>
> Sat, 9 Jan 2010 23:56:24 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> >:
> >
> > "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> > t...
> > > Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> > > >:
> > >
> > >> and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
> > >
> > > Again, you're not counting all the times they meow when not hungry.
> > > Milo (who will probably get renamed Destructo the Visigoth, after he
> > > shredded the flexible metal hose venting my clothes dryer to the
> > > outdoors) meows all the time, when he's hungry and when he's not,
> > > when he wants to get picked up and when he doesn't, when he's bored
> > > and wants to play and when he wants to be left alone. It drove me
> > > crazy until finally I realized he was just talking to himself because
> > > he likes the sound of his own voice. (No, he's not Siamese -- plain
> > > old tabby.)
> >
> > Maybe he doesn't understand why you don't comprehend his language. :)
>
> LOL -- I've actually had that thought. I talk to him a lot, as I
> imagine most people do to their animals, and sometimes when he just
> sits there staring at me I can almost hear him saying, "What do you
> want? Can't you say it in plain Cat?"

Some cats are more vocally expressive than others. For example, the last
batch of cats had calls I could understand. The food meow was
distinctive, as was the meow that conveyed "Where are you?"

The Nice Mean Man
January 11th 10, 04:20 AM
On Jan 10, 9:43*pm, T > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sat, 9 Jan 2010 23:56:24 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> > >:
>
> > > "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> > t...
> > > > Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:39:43 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> > > > >:
>
> > > >> and then watch it calculate whether you will feed it by meowing at you,
>
> > > > Again, you're not counting all the times they meow when not hungry.
> > > > Milo (who will probably get renamed Destructo the Visigoth, after he
> > > > shredded the flexible metal hose venting my clothes dryer to the
> > > > outdoors) meows all the time, when he's hungry and when he's not,
> > > > when he wants to get picked up and when he doesn't, when he's bored
> > > > and wants to play and when he wants to be left alone. *It drove me
> > > > crazy until finally I realized he was just talking to himself because
> > > > he likes the sound of his own voice. (No, he's not Siamese -- plain
> > > > old tabby.)
>
> > > Maybe he doesn't understand why you don't comprehend his language. :)
>
> > LOL -- I've actually had that thought. *I talk to him a lot, as I
> > imagine most people do to their animals, and sometimes when he just
> > sits there staring at me I can almost hear him saying, "What do you
> > want? *Can't you say it in plain Cat?"
>
> Some cats are more vocally expressive than others. For example, the last
> batch of cats had calls I could understand. The food meow was
> distinctive, as was the meow that conveyed "Where are you?"- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Where most cats meow, ours goes.... "Miiiiiilk". I sear to frucking
Gad! The little ******* knows how to get what he wants. Too bad it
makes him sick so he can't have any. I call him CatBoy.That's because
he looks too much like a cat to be a person but at the same time he's
too much like a person not to be part boy. I tell him this sometimes
and he acts like he understands... No lie. Who really knows for sure?

The Nice Mean Man

Mark Earnest
January 11th 10, 05:50 AM
"The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 8, 11:06 pm, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
> It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> Well, consider this.
>
> My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> play
> with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> calculations sizzle in her mind t once, far more than any processor
> of any of our fastest computers!

We, the wife and I, have a really smart cat, and that ain't no
bull****. People always say that about their felines, but in our case
it's really true. For instance, when he sees the wife getting out of
her work shoes, he will immediately go over, position himself in front
of them and then lay down with his little paws and legs inside of her
shoes! The he just sits there looking cool like he understands what to
do with the shoes. Another thing he likes to do; after he has been
caught in some little kitty wrong (breaking the rules) and is
scolded... as he trots away, he makes his mouth into a small circle
and 'chatters' at us! Like a child back-talking after being
chastised! I think he is smarter than most. Also, he loves to sit
upright against the hall wall. It's too ****ing weird. I'm sitting
there on the couch and I get that feeling you get when you think
someone's watching you. I turn to my right and there lo-and-behold the
little bugger is! Sitting there as if he were me sitting where I sit!
Like he's doing what he sees us doing! I always said it was because he
never knew anyone else as a model... another cat or anything... so he
thinks he's actually one of us! LOL...!!!!
More funny ****.... He has quite the large vocabulary. He will
understand what we say and then do as he is told, if you can believe
that. When we go to bed at night, all I have to say is: chop-chop" and
he gets up from where ever his is and gallops to his little bedroom
(the 2nd bedroom where he spends each night).. The funny thing is,
usually he is already in there when I exit the shower, waiting like a
dutiful child for his father's kind words of approval (which he always
gets). If he is making a nuisance of himself by begging, one only has
to command him to "go lay down". I swear, he will turn right around
and lie down in his box lid or fleece basket. Whichever's closer. He
seems to be intelligent enough to really understand the value in
gaining our approval. A plateau once reserved only for dogs and the
higher-ups, since most cats don't give a rat's ass. He is a fine cat
and a good boy! And we love him like he was our own kid.

**A man was just here that owned a cat in a yacht, and said his cat was his
only connection with the real world.

So when you call your cat your kid, it may really be your kid.
Because real human beings may be acting somewhat through
your cat, in a strange cause and effect sort of way.

I know that sounds wierd again, but reality is wierd.

Mark

Bill Graham
January 11th 10, 07:47 AM
"The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 10, 2:21 am, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> "Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
>
> netamerica...
>
>
>
>
>
> > It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> > attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> > Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> > Well, consider this.
>
> > My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> > attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> > play with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> > Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> > including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> > and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> > calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> > of any of our fastest computers!
>
> Yes. - Several million years of catching birds can do wonderful
> things......- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Excuse me, Will... but are you any relation to the TV evangelist?
Billy Graham? How about that old-time pro wrestler.... Superstar Billy
Graham, I think it was? Or that other wrestler Eddie Graham down in
Florida? An great all-round sports personality and personal hero of
mine when I was a kid. Too bad he killed himself.
Then there's that other guy... the other Bill Graham. The rock
promoter dude. Are you any relation to him? Hes dead, too you know.
Or Graham Bond the blues cat (also deceased). Or Graham Parsons the
country rock cat (another one that went far too young). Or Graham
Nash, the whinny little liberal activist-bubblegum rock star creep.
He's still around.Used to be with that pussy group, the Hollies, I
think it was. Are you any relation to them? I mean, with a name like
that, I MUST have hit on at least one. Right?



The Nicea Meana Mana

Well, I think most all of us Graham's are related, since it is a very well
known Scottish clan, but there are so many of us here in the US that It is
rare when I find one whose relationship is closer than a second or third
cousin. Some of the ones you named aren't even Grahams.....the rock promoter
(who died in a helicopter crash some twenty years ago) was a Polish guy that
took the name Graham because nobody here could pronounce his real name. Also
Graham is a fairly common first name, especially in GB, and they probably
aren't related to me at all.......But if you go back far enough, we are all
related.......In about five hundred years everyone on earth will be related
to Osama Bin Laden......(Those people have thirty or forty children by a
dozen or more wives)

Stan Brown
January 11th 10, 12:35 PM
Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:50:32 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>:
> We, the wife and I, have a really smart cat, and that ain't no
> bull****. People always say that about their felines, but in our case
> it's really true. For instance, when he sees the wife getting out of
> her work shoes, he will immediately go over, position himself in front
> of them and then lay down with his little paws and legs inside of her
> shoes! The he just sits there looking cool like he understands what to
> do with the shoes.

Cute, sure, but I can't understand how you regard that as a sign of
intelligence.

Cats seem very ritual-bound -- almost autistic, as I posted a while
back. When I come home, I lie down on the bed and Destructo the
Visigoth settles jumps on my chest, head-butts me a couple of times,
and settles does as though for a nap. A minute or two later he gets
up and moves to the bed beside me.

I will say that once he gave me pause. His favorite toy is Squeaky
Mouse, and he's taught me to play Fetch with it One day I hadn't seen
it for a while, and I said to him. "Where's Squeaky Mouse"? A minute
or two later he had dropped it a my feet. Coincidence, or spooky
alien powers?


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

dgk
January 11th 10, 01:08 PM
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:06:29 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
> wrote:

>It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
>attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
>Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
>Well, consider this.
>
>My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
>attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I play
>with, with my adolescent cat.
>
>Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>of any of our fastest computers!
>

I think it varies tremendously. Nipsy is just smarter than a rock.
Luckily he is very sweet and mushy and fun to pet. Marlo has a bit
more on the ball, but I would never call her smart. Espy, on the other
hand, is a very smart cat. He figures out how to get into things, and
often how to get out. He knows how to open the back door but can't get
the key into the (double sided) lock.

He stares at me when he wants Temptations, and he squints and you can
just feel the "treat, treat, treat..." being radiated. Sometimes I'll
be lying in bed reading and I'll feel his intensity and look over and
there he is, staring at me. That goes beyond intelligence to actual
manipulation of my (admittedly weak) brain waves.

Allan Smith
January 11th 10, 01:51 PM
Stan,

A cat's language is primarily accomplished with the body, facial expression,
and eyes, but some are quite capable of communicating verbally.
Understanding their language will enrich you relationship with them.

A head-butt is a hug or handshake meaning "we're buds". It's polite to
return it with a couple of head-rubs.

See the bottom of
http://www.best-cat-art.com/cat-body-language.html

Mine engage in "eye-scrooching", which is a very slow blink, as well. It is
an "I love you". I return the behavior, but then look away, as most cats
don't like prolonged eye-contact.

More on cat body-language at
http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm
and
http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm

Allan

--
One asks, many answer, all learn -- Plato, on the 'Forum
---
True civility is when every one gives to every other one every right
that they claim for themselves.

"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:50:32 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> >:
>> We, the wife and I, have a really smart cat, and that ain't no
>> bull****. People always say that about their felines, but in our case

January 11th 10, 03:54 PM
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:51:32 -0500, "Allan Smith"
> wrote:

>More on cat body-language at
>http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm
>and
>http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm

Those two links are identical. Did you mean to post two different
ones?

cybercat
January 11th 10, 07:52 PM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:06:29 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
> > wrote:
>
>>It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
>>attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
>>Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>>
>>Well, consider this.
>>
>>My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
>>attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
>>play
>>with, with my adolescent cat.
>>
>>Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>>including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>>and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>>calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>>of any of our fastest computers!
>>
>
> I think it varies tremendously. Nipsy is just smarter than a rock.
> Luckily he is very sweet and mushy and fun to pet. Marlo has a bit
> more on the ball, but I would never call her smart. Espy, on the other
> hand, is a very smart cat. He figures out how to get into things, and
> often how to get out. He knows how to open the back door but can't get
> the key into the (double sided) lock.
>
> He stares at me when he wants Temptations, and he squints and you can
> just feel the "treat, treat, treat..." being radiated. Sometimes I'll
> be lying in bed reading and I'll feel his intensity and look over and
> there he is, staring at me. That goes beyond intelligence to actual
> manipulation of my (admittedly weak) brain waves.

heh. Great post. Bella does this treat thing, and that is a great
description of it.

Mark Earnest
January 12th 10, 01:27 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
> netamerica...
>> Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
>> including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
>> and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
>> calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
>> of any of our fastest computers!
>
> And that's how the little carnivores we love so much can catch mice, birds
> and other small critters.

Yes, and in a way we teach them to do it, too, when we play with them.
Right now by playing with my adolescent cat I am inadvertently teaching her
how to rake with her rear claws if she gets into a fight. Ouch! Teaching
can be painful sometimes. :(

The Nice Mean Man
January 12th 10, 03:12 AM
On Jan 11, 12:50*am, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in ...
> On Jan 8, 11:06 pm, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> > attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> > Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> > Well, consider this.
>
> > My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> > attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> > play
> > with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> > Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> > including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> > and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> > calculations sizzle in her mind t once, far more than any processor
> > of any of our fastest computers!
>
> We, the wife and I, have a really smart cat, and that ain't no
> bull****. People always say that about their felines, but in our case
> it's really true. For instance, when he sees the wife getting out of
> her work shoes, he will immediately go over, position himself in front
> of them and then lay down with his little paws and legs inside of her
> shoes! The he just sits there looking cool like he understands what to
> do with the shoes. Another thing he likes to do; after he has been
> caught in some little kitty wrong (breaking the rules) and is
> scolded... as he trots away, he makes his mouth into a small circle
> and 'chatters' at us! Like a child back-talking after being
> chastised! *I think he is smarter than most. Also, he loves to sit
> upright against the hall wall. It's too ****ing weird. I'm sitting
> there on the couch and I get that feeling you get when you think
> someone's watching you. I turn to my right and there lo-and-behold the
> little bugger is! Sitting there as if he were me sitting where I sit!
> Like he's doing what he sees us doing! I always said it was because he
> never knew anyone else as a model... another cat or anything... so he
> thinks he's actually one of us! LOL...!!!!
> *More funny ****.... He has quite the large vocabulary. He will
> understand what we say and then do as he is told, if you can believe
> that. When we go to bed at night, all I have to say is: chop-chop" and
> he gets up from where ever his is and gallops to his little bedroom
> (the 2nd bedroom where he spends each night).. The funny thing is,
> usually he is already in there when I exit the shower, waiting like a
> dutiful child for his father's kind words of approval (which he always
> gets). If he is making a nuisance of himself by begging, one only has
> to command him to "go lay down". I swear, he will turn right around
> and lie down in his box lid or fleece basket. Whichever's closer. He
> seems to be intelligent enough to really understand the value in
> gaining our approval. A plateau once reserved only for dogs and the
> higher-ups, since most cats don't give a rat's ass. He is a fine cat
> and a good boy! And we love him like he was our own kid.
>
> **A man was just here that owned a cat in a yacht, and said his cat was his
> only connection with the real world.
>
> So when you call your cat your kid, it may really be your kid.
> Because real human beings may be acting somewhat through
> your cat, in a strange cause and effect sort of way.
>
> I know that sounds wierd again, but reality is wierd.
>
> Mark- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I know the difference between my real children and my cat, jerk-off.
Stay away from whatever you're smoking... I can smell it from here.

The Nice Mean Man
January 12th 10, 03:13 AM
On Jan 11, 2:47*am, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in ...
> On Jan 10, 2:21 am, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
>
> netamerica...
>
> > > It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> > > attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all..
> > > Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> > > Well, consider this.
>
> > > My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> > > attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> > > play with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> > > Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> > > including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> > > and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> > > calculations sizzle in her mind at once, far more than any processor
> > > of any of our fastest computers!
>
> > Yes. - Several million years of catching birds can do wonderful
> > things......- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Excuse me, Will... but are you any relation to the TV evangelist?
> Billy Graham? How about that old-time pro wrestler.... Superstar Billy
> Graham, I think it was? Or that other wrestler Eddie Graham down in
> Florida? An great all-round sports personality and personal hero of
> mine when I was a kid. Too bad he killed himself.
> *Then there's that other guy... the other Bill Graham. The rock
> promoter dude. Are you any relation to him? He s dead, too you know.
> Or Graham Bond the blues cat (also deceased). *Or Graham Parsons the
> country rock cat (another one that went far too young). Or Graham
> Nash, the whinny little liberal activist-bubblegum rock star creep.
> He's still around.Used to be with that pussy group, the Hollies, I
> think it was. Are you any relation to them? I mean, with a name like
> that, I MUST have hit on at least one. Right?
>
> The Nicea Meana Mana
>
> Well, I think most all of us Graham's are related, since it is a very well
> known Scottish clan, but there are so many of us here in the US that It is
> rare when I find one whose relationship is closer than a second or third
> cousin. Some of the ones you named aren't even Grahams.....the rock promoter
> (who died in a helicopter crash some twenty years ago) was a Polish guy that
> took the name Graham because nobody here could pronounce his real name. Also
> Graham is a fairly common first name, especially in GB, and they probably
> aren't related to me at all.......But if you go back far enough, we are all
> related.......In about five hundred years everyone on earth will be related
> to Osama Bin Laden......(Those people have thirty or forty children by a
> dozen or more wives)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

LOL....!!! Thanks.. I gotya, Will

The Nice Mean Man

Mark Earnest
January 12th 10, 03:30 AM
"The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 11, 12:50 am, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in
> ...
> On Jan 8, 11:06 pm, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> > attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all.
> > Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> > Well, consider this.
>
> > My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> > attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> > play
> > with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> > Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> > including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> > and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> > calculations sizzle in her mind t once, far more than any processor
> > of any of our fastest computers!
>
> We, the wife and I, have a really smart cat, and that ain't no
> bull****. People always say that about their felines, but in our case
> it's really true. For instance, when he sees the wife getting out of
> her work shoes, he will immediately go over, position himself in front
> of them and then lay down with his little paws and legs inside of her
> shoes! The he just sits there looking cool like he understands what to
> do with the shoes. Another thing he likes to do; after he has been
> caught in some little kitty wrong (breaking the rules) and is
> scolded... as he trots away, he makes his mouth into a small circle
> and 'chatters' at us! Like a child back-talking after being
> chastised! I think he is smarter than most. Also, he loves to sit
> upright against the hall wall. It's too ****ing weird. I'm sitting
> there on the couch and I get that feeling you get when you think
> someone's watching you. I turn to my right and there lo-and-behold the
> little bugger is! Sitting there as if he were me sitting where I sit!
> Like he's doing what he sees us doing! I always said it was because he
> never knew anyone else as a model... another cat or anything... so he
> thinks he's actually one of us! LOL...!!!!
> More funny ****.... He has quite the large vocabulary. He will
> understand what we say and then do as he is told, if you can believe
> that. When we go to bed at night, all I have to say is: chop-chop" and
> he gets up from where ever his is and gallops to his little bedroom
> (the 2nd bedroom where he spends each night).. The funny thing is,
> usually he is already in there when I exit the shower, waiting like a
> dutiful child for his father's kind words of approval (which he always
> gets). If he is making a nuisance of himself by begging, one only has
> to command him to "go lay down". I swear, he will turn right around
> and lie down in his box lid or fleece basket. Whichever's closer. He
> seems to be intelligent enough to really understand the value in
> gaining our approval. A plateau once reserved only for dogs and the
> higher-ups, since most cats don't give a rat's ass. He is a fine cat
> and a good boy! And we love him like he was our own kid.
>
> **A man was just here that owned a cat in a yacht, and said his cat was
> his
> only connection with the real world.
>
> So when you call your cat your kid, it may really be your kid.
> Because real human beings may be acting somewhat through
> your cat, in a strange cause and effect sort of way.
>
> I know that sounds wierd again, but reality is wierd.
>
> Mark- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I know the difference between my real children and my cat, jerk-off.
Stay away from whatever you're smoking... I can smell it from here.

**You're not very bright, then.
All creatures are connected.

Stan Brown
January 16th 10, 05:12 PM
Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:51:32 -0500 from Allan Smith
>:
> Mine engage in "eye-scrooching", which is a very slow blink, as well. It is
> an "I love you". I return the behavior, but then look away, as most cats
> don't like prolonged eye-contact.

I can't recall the book title, but I think I read that the slow blink
is an expression of trust, and it's de rigeur to return it.



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

cybercat
January 16th 10, 05:17 PM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:51:32 -0500 from Allan Smith
> >:
>> Mine engage in "eye-scrooching", which is a very slow blink, as well. It
>> is
>> an "I love you". I return the behavior, but then look away, as most cats
>> don't like prolonged eye-contact.
>
> I can't recall the book title, but I think I read that the slow blink
> is an expression of trust, and it's de rigeur to return it.
>
>

Desmond Morris's "Ca****ching"

The Nice Mean Man
January 16th 10, 07:33 PM
On Jan 11, 10:30*pm, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in ...
> On Jan 11, 12:50 am, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in
> > ...
> > On Jan 8, 11:06 pm, "Mark Earnest" > wrote:
>
> > > It was observed here not too long ago that someone's cat will
> > > attack a napkin and tear it to shreds for apparently no reason at all..
> > > Supposedly cats are weird, and not too bright, to do such a thing.
>
> > > Well, consider this.
>
> > > My sister purchased a cat toy for me for Christmas, and it is a feather
> > > attached to a weight, attached to a string, attached to a stick that I
> > > play
> > > with, with my adolescent cat.
>
> > > Now this amazing creature can calculate the trajectory of that toy,
> > > including predict what I am going to do with it, at lightning speed,
> > > and have it before I can even start having fun myself. A million
> > > calculations sizzle in her mind t once, far more than any processor
> > > of any of our fastest computers!
>
> > We, the wife and I, have a really smart cat, and that ain't no
> > bull****. People always say that about their felines, but in our case
> > it's really true. For instance, when he sees the wife getting out of
> > her work shoes, he will immediately go over, position himself in front
> > of them and then lay down with his little paws and legs inside of her
> > shoes! The he just sits there looking cool like he understands what to
> > do with the shoes. Another thing he likes to do; after he has been
> > caught in some little kitty wrong (breaking the rules) and is
> > scolded... as he trots away, he makes his mouth into a small circle
> > and 'chatters' at us! Like a child back-talking after being
> > chastised! I think he is smarter than most. Also, he loves to sit
> > upright against the hall wall. It's too ****ing weird. I'm sitting
> > there on the couch and I get that feeling you get when you think
> > someone's watching you. I turn to my right and there lo-and-behold the
> > little bugger is! Sitting there as if he were me sitting where I sit!
> > Like he's doing what he sees us doing! I always said it was because he
> > never knew anyone else as a model... another cat or anything... so he
> > thinks he's actually one of us! LOL...!!!!
> > More funny ****.... He has quite the large vocabulary. He will
> > understand what we say and then do as he is told, if you can believe
> > that. When we go to bed at night, all I have to say is: chop-chop" and
> > he gets up from where ever his is and gallops to his little bedroom
> > (the 2nd bedroom where he spends each night).. The funny thing is,
> > usually he is already in there when I exit the shower, waiting like a
> > dutiful child for his father's kind words of approval (which he always
> > gets). If he is making a nuisance of himself by begging, one only has
> > to command him to "go lay down". I swear, he will turn right around
> > and lie down in his box lid or fleece basket. Whichever's closer. He
> > seems to be intelligent enough to really understand the value in
> > gaining our approval. A plateau once reserved only for dogs and the
> > higher-ups, since most cats don't give a rat's ass. He is a fine cat
> > and a good boy! And we love him like he was our own kid.
>
> > **A man was just here that owned a cat in a yacht, and said his cat was
> > his
> > only connection with the real world.
>
> > So when you call your cat your kid, it may really be your kid.
> > Because real human beings may be acting somewhat through
> > your cat, in a strange cause and effect sort of way.
>
> > I know that sounds wierd again, but reality is wierd.
>
> > Mark- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I know the difference between my real children and my cat, jerk-off.
> Stay away from whatever you're smoking... I can smell it from here.
>
> **You're not very bright, then.
> All creatures are connected.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, but thay are not all equal. Because some are things and others
are people.

Bill Graham
January 17th 10, 01:21 AM
"The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
news:1243186d-1b94-4dda-a042->

All creatures are connected.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, but thay are not all equal. Because some are things and others
are people.

There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God, and think
that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and suffering, both mental
and physical) I love my cats as much as I have loved any people in my life,
and I treat them accordingly. My cats are not, "things". My color TV, and my
automobiles and motorcycles are things. They do not suffer when they are
abandoned and cold and hungry. There isn't a one of them that I wouldn't
give up for any of my cats. When I opened my doors to my cats, I assumed an
obligation to take care of them for the balance of their lives. I agree with
the Native American belief that when you save a life, you automatically
assume responsibility for that life for as long as you live. When I picked
up B-K from that Burger King parking lot on the day before Thanksgiving
2004, I assumed the responsibility of taking care of him for the rest of his
life. I will not turn my back on that obligation. I can not even undo that
obligation by returning him to the same lot. He has been robbed of his
ability to scrounge for, and live on, French fry's, and onion rings and crap
that people threw at him. He is now accustomed to getting his fill of good
healthy food whenever he wants it. He belongs here, in front of my hearth
all Winter, regardless of how long, and how cold that Winter gets.

Mark Earnest
January 17th 10, 01:56 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
> news:1243186d-1b94-4dda-a042->
>
> All creatures are connected.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes, but thay are not all equal. Because some are things and others
> are people.
>
> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God, and think
> that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and suffering, both mental
> and physical) I love my cats as much as I have loved any people in my
> life, and I treat them accordingly. My cats are not, "things". My color
> TV, and my automobiles and motorcycles are things. They do not suffer when
> they are abandoned and cold and hungry. There isn't a one of them that I
> wouldn't give up for any of my cats. When I opened my doors to my cats, I
> assumed an obligation to take care of them for the balance of their lives.
> I agree with the Native American belief that when you save a life, you
> automatically assume responsibility for that life for as long as you live.
> When I picked up B-K from that Burger King parking lot on the day before
> Thanksgiving 2004, I assumed the responsibility of taking care of him for
> the rest of his life. I will not turn my back on that obligation. I can
> not even undo that obligation by returning him to the same lot. He has
> been robbed of his ability to scrounge for, and live on, French fry's, and
> onion rings and crap that people threw at him. He is now accustomed to
> getting his fill of good healthy food whenever he wants it. He belongs
> here, in front of my hearth all Winter, regardless of how long, and how
> cold that Winter gets.

No animal loves like a saved animal. They will always remember
how things used to be, and compare it with the way they are now.

Bill Graham
January 17th 10, 02:18 AM
"Mark Earnest" > wrote in message
netamerica...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
>> news:1243186d-1b94-4dda-a042->
>>
>> All creatures are connected.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Yes, but thay are not all equal. Because some are things and others
>> are people.
>>
>> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God, and
>> think that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and suffering, both
>> mental and physical) I love my cats as much as I have loved any people in
>> my life, and I treat them accordingly. My cats are not, "things". My
>> color TV, and my automobiles and motorcycles are things. They do not
>> suffer when they are abandoned and cold and hungry. There isn't a one of
>> them that I wouldn't give up for any of my cats. When I opened my doors
>> to my cats, I assumed an obligation to take care of them for the balance
>> of their lives. I agree with the Native American belief that when you
>> save a life, you automatically assume responsibility for that life for as
>> long as you live. When I picked up B-K from that Burger King parking lot
>> on the day before Thanksgiving 2004, I assumed the responsibility of
>> taking care of him for the rest of his life. I will not turn my back on
>> that obligation. I can not even undo that obligation by returning him to
>> the same lot. He has been robbed of his ability to scrounge for, and live
>> on, French fry's, and onion rings and crap that people threw at him. He
>> is now accustomed to getting his fill of good healthy food whenever he
>> wants it. He belongs here, in front of my hearth all Winter, regardless
>> of how long, and how cold that Winter gets.
>
> No animal loves like a saved animal. They will always remember
> how things used to be, and compare it with the way they are now.
>
Well, for the first three or four years, B-I was very thankful. He would
jump up on the bed behind me when I was putting on my socks and shoes in the
morning, and stand on his hind feet and put his front paws on my shoulders
and hug me from behind just like a person does. But now, he is just like our
other cats, and just likes to lay around and enjoy life. Although, he still
loves the rain, and will stand out in it for hours. And, unlike our other
cats, he will come running down the block when I call him with my dog
whistle..

Stan Brown
January 17th 10, 02:20 PM
Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>
> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
> news:1243186d-1b94-4dda-a042->
>
> Yes, but thay are not all equal. Because some are things and others
> are people.
>
> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God,
> and think that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and
> suffering, both mental and physical)

Sorry to be harsh, but such silly sentimentality really gets my goat.
To say that a flatworm is equal to a chimp or a human is just absurd.
I'll concede that a flatworm may feel pain (though I don't know if
that's actually true) but it's absurd to describe it as experiencing
mental suffering or mental anything.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 17th 10, 02:21 PM
Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:56:41 -0600 from Mark Earnest
>:

> No animal loves like a saved animal. They will always remember
> how things used to be, and compare it with the way they are now.

Do you think so? I don't have hard evidence either way, but cats are
not known for their sense of gratitude. :-)

My cat is a saved animal (saved from the shelter, not from the wild,
at about a year old), but he's not noticeably more affectionate or
well behaved than any of the cats I raised from kittens.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

jmc
January 17th 10, 03:31 PM
Suddenly, without warning, Stan Brown exclaimed (1/17/2010 9:21 AM):
> Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:56:41 -0600 from Mark Earnest
> >:
>
>> No animal loves like a saved animal. They will always remember
>> how things used to be, and compare it with the way they are now.
>
> Do you think so? I don't have hard evidence either way, but cats are
> not known for their sense of gratitude. :-)
>
> My cat is a saved animal (saved from the shelter, not from the wild,
> at about a year old), but he's not noticeably more affectionate or
> well behaved than any of the cats I raised from kittens.
>

I do, actually, but it's hard to say how cats think - what we consider
"saved" might just be a change of home/humans for them. Saved from a
good shelter, I think, might come under that heading.

If you've taken them in from the cold, had their hurts fixed, and fed
them when they were starving, then, yes, I think cats are smart enough
to understand things have changed for the better, and be grateful for it.

As for your flatworm vs cats analogy, careful there. We used to think
much the same way about animals - that they were essentially just
automatons, reacting on instinct alone, and did not feel pain. In fact,
we used to believe the same thing of human babies once!

I have a feeling that some day, we may discover that how intelligent a
creature is has little to do with the size of their brain (maybe our
brain is big because of the complexity of our world?). And someday
we'll understand that knowledge does not equal intelligence. Humans are
vastly more knowledgeable than cats (some days, I don't think that's a
good thing). On average, humans are probably more intelligent than cats
(and most other animals), but even in the normal IQ ranges, I'm quite
sure I've met cats that are more intelligent than some humans I know.

jmc

Bill Graham
January 17th 10, 11:46 PM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>>
>> "The Nice Mean Man" > wrote in message
>> news:1243186d-1b94-4dda-a042->
>>
>> Yes, but thay are not all equal. Because some are things and others
>> are people.
>>
>> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God,
>> and think that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and
>> suffering, both mental and physical)
>
> Sorry to be harsh, but such silly sentimentality really gets my goat.
> To say that a flatworm is equal to a chimp or a human is just absurd.
> I'll concede that a flatworm may feel pain (though I don't know if
> that's actually true) but it's absurd to describe it as experiencing
> mental suffering or mental anything.

Interesting that you include chimps with human beings, but exclude
flatworms. Just where do you draw the line when it comes to pain and
suffering? A real religious nut would exclude chimps, and toss them in the
same bag as the flatworms. Hell, they would even exclude Neanderthals from
their "exalted class", because they don't believe they had souls. Their
Christ didn't die for the Neanderthals, even though they had a society, and
raised their children just like we do. I realize that I can't spend my life
protecting and crying over flatworms. Hell, I can't even spend too much time
worrying about the chimps and people. But when I lie awake at night and look
up at the stars, I wonder why this world was created with so much suffering
and pain. I wonder who or what is served by it, and weather I should be
doing more to prevent it, or weather it doesn't make a damn to anyone what I
think or do.

Bill Graham
January 23rd 10, 12:46 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
> But when I lie awake at night and look
>> up at the stars, I wonder why this world was created with so much
>> suffering and pain. I wonder who or what is served by it, and weather I
>> should be doing more to prevent it, or weather it doesn't make a damn to
>> anyone what I think or do.
>
> This is the way of evolution. Pain and suffering are meaningless as long
> as reproduction and adaptation continue on. Comfort and happiness are not
> essential for the next generation to be born.
>
> I don't know if there is or isn't a God. Sometimes I feel there isn't
> just because of all the suffering and misery on the earth. How can a God
> allow it? Not just people are suffering, but the animals as well.
> --

Exactly. And this is largely the cause of my atheism. Some lie in a field of
grass in the daytime, and observe the buzzing of the bees, and the chirping
of the birds and ask, "How could there not be a God who created all this
beauty." I lie awake at night, and listen to the moaning from cold and
hunger and the screams of pain that come from the jungle that I call my back
yard, and wonder what kind of monster would create such a world and not rush
to repair it. And, if monster he is, why would anyone, "worship" him? To me,
a God, (any God) has to have some use, or it wouldn't matter whether you
believed in him or not......Of what possible use is a God whom I have never
seen, or seen any evidence of, during my entire 74 years? A typewriter,
dropped from the roof of a 100 story office building, has just as much
chance of hitting a child on the sidewalk below as it does of hitting a
trash can. Only the percentage of the surface area of the sidewalk covered
by either of these objects enters into the equation. Not all your prayers or
curses will change that equation in the slightest. So, if God exists, he
does absolutely nothing for any of us. I would as soon worship a banana. At
least the peel might trip up an escaping criminal......:^)

Stan Brown
January 23rd 10, 03:36 PM
Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:46:13 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...

> Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9
@comcast.net>:
>> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God,
>> and think that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and
>> suffering, both mental and physical)

> > To say that a flatworm is equal to a chimp or a human is just absurd.
> > I'll concede that a flatworm may feel pain (though I don't know if
> > that's actually true) but it's absurd to describe it as experiencing
> > mental suffering or mental anything.
>
> Interesting that you include chimps with human beings, but exclude
> flatworms. Just where do you draw the line when it comes to pain and
> suffering?

I *don't* draw a line, because of course things are on a continuum.
There is no bright line, and an attempt to create one is nutty.

It's obvious that a cat is more intelligent than a flatworm; it's
equally obvious that it's less intelligent than a chimp.

It's also obvious that a cat is more self aware than a flatworm. It's
maybe not obvious but I think most would a agree that a cat is less
self aware than a chimp.

It's obvious that a cat has greater capacity for suffering than a
flatworm. Whether a cat has less capacity than a chimp, I don't
know.

The point is, it's absurd to say "all animals are equal", meaning
that have the same capacity for suffering. It is equally absurd to
try to draw a line and say that any particular quality is possessed
by animals on one side of the line and not possessed by animals on
the other side.


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 23rd 10, 03:41 PM
Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:46:11 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
> And this is largely the cause of my atheism. . ...
> Of what possible use is a God whom I have never
> seen, or seen any evidence of, during my entire 74 years?

Well, if we're going to go there, my views are similar.

I remember reading the story of Laplace and Napoleon, and being
struck by how well it echoed my own thinking.

Laplace dedicated an astronomical treatise on the Solar System to
Napoleon. the emperor leafed through it and remarked, "I see no
mention of God in this book, Monsieur."

Laplace replied, brilliantly IMHO, "Sire, I had no need of that
hypothesis."

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Bill Graham
January 23rd 10, 09:35 PM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:46:13 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
>> t...
>
>> Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9
> @comcast.net>:
>>> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God,
>>> and think that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and
>>> suffering, both mental and physical)
>
>> > To say that a flatworm is equal to a chimp or a human is just absurd.
>> > I'll concede that a flatworm may feel pain (though I don't know if
>> > that's actually true) but it's absurd to describe it as experiencing
>> > mental suffering or mental anything.
>>
>> Interesting that you include chimps with human beings, but exclude
>> flatworms. Just where do you draw the line when it comes to pain and
>> suffering?
>
> I *don't* draw a line, because of course things are on a continuum.
> There is no bright line, and an attempt to create one is nutty.
>
> It's obvious that a cat is more intelligent than a flatworm; it's
> equally obvious that it's less intelligent than a chimp.
>
> It's also obvious that a cat is more self aware than a flatworm. It's
> maybe not obvious but I think most would a agree that a cat is less
> self aware than a chimp.
>
> It's obvious that a cat has greater capacity for suffering than a
> flatworm. Whether a cat has less capacity than a chimp, I don't
> know.
>
> The point is, it's absurd to say "all animals are equal", meaning
> that have the same capacity for suffering. It is equally absurd to
> try to draw a line and say that any particular quality is possessed
> by animals on one side of the line and not possessed by animals on
> the other side.
>
So your criteria seems to be based on intelligence. That means that if
someone is stupid, it's OK to mistreat them in some way that you wouldn't
mistreat an intelligent person?

Just asking.........

Bill Graham
January 23rd 10, 09:45 PM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:46:11 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>> And this is largely the cause of my atheism. . ...
>> Of what possible use is a God whom I have never
>> seen, or seen any evidence of, during my entire 74 years?
>
> Well, if we're going to go there, my views are similar.
>
> I remember reading the story of Laplace and Napoleon, and being
> struck by how well it echoed my own thinking.
>
> Laplace dedicated an astronomical treatise on the Solar System to
> Napoleon. the emperor leafed through it and remarked, "I see no
> mention of God in this book, Monsieur."
>
> Laplace replied, brilliantly IMHO, "Sire, I had no need of that
> hypothesis."
>
Yes. Well, apparently religious people believe that their God, even though
refusing to appear or affect them in any way whatsoever for their entire
lives, will suddenly appear after they are dead, and whisk them away to some
never-never land in the sky for all eternity. I find this truly amazing. It
must be very nice to be able to believe that, but unfortunately, my own
personal belief system is not built that way. I don't believe what is
convenient to believe. I believe that which I estimate to be probable, and
don't believe that which I estimate to be improbable. And, in my estimation,
the improbability of the Christian myth is overwhelming.

Stan Brown
January 24th 10, 06:45 AM
Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:35:40 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
> > Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:46:13 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
> >> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> >> t...
> >
> >> Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9
> > @comcast.net>:
> >>> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God,
> >>> and think that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and
> >>> suffering, both mental and physical)
> >
> >> > To say that a flatworm is equal to a chimp or a human is just absurd.
> >> > I'll concede that a flatworm may feel pain (though I don't know if
> >> > that's actually true) but it's absurd to describe it as experiencing
> >> > mental suffering or mental anything.
> >>
> >> Interesting that you include chimps with human beings, but exclude
> >> flatworms. Just where do you draw the line when it comes to pain and
> >> suffering?
> >
> > I *don't* draw a line, because of course things are on a continuum.
> > There is no bright line, and an attempt to create one is nutty.
> >
> > It's obvious that a cat is more intelligent than a flatworm; it's
> > equally obvious that it's less intelligent than a chimp.
> >
> > It's also obvious that a cat is more self aware than a flatworm. It's
> > maybe not obvious but I think most would a agree that a cat is less
> > self aware than a chimp.
> >
> > It's obvious that a cat has greater capacity for suffering than a
> > flatworm. Whether a cat has less capacity than a chimp, I don't
> > know.
> >
> > The point is, it's absurd to say "all animals are equal", meaning
> > that have the same capacity for suffering. It is equally absurd to
> > try to draw a line and say that any particular quality is possessed
> > by animals on one side of the line and not possessed by animals on
> > the other side.
> >
> So your criteria seems to be based on intelligence. That means that if
> someone is stupid, it's OK to mistreat them in some way that you wouldn't
> mistreat an intelligent person?
>
> Just asking.........

Setting up a straw man, you mean. I can't see how you could make
your comment if you actually read what I wrote.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

jmc
January 25th 10, 04:20 AM
Suddenly, without warning, Bill Graham exclaimed (1/23/2010 4:45 PM):
>
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:46:11 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>>> And this is largely the cause of my atheism. . ...
>>> Of what possible use is a God whom I have never
>>> seen, or seen any evidence of, during my entire 74 years?
>>
>> Well, if we're going to go there, my views are similar.
>>
>> I remember reading the story of Laplace and Napoleon, and being
>> struck by how well it echoed my own thinking.
>>
>> Laplace dedicated an astronomical treatise on the Solar System to
>> Napoleon. the emperor leafed through it and remarked, "I see no
>> mention of God in this book, Monsieur."
>>
>> Laplace replied, brilliantly IMHO, "Sire, I had no need of that
>> hypothesis."
>>
> Yes. Well, apparently religious people believe that their God, even
> though refusing to appear or affect them in any way whatsoever for their
> entire lives, will suddenly appear after they are dead, and whisk them
> away to some never-never land in the sky for all eternity. I find this
> truly amazing. It must be very nice to be able to believe that, but
> unfortunately, my own personal belief system is not built that way. I
> don't believe what is convenient to believe. I believe that which I
> estimate to be probable, and don't believe that which I estimate to be
> improbable. And, in my estimation, the improbability of the Christian
> myth is overwhelming.

Here's my whine: People who need an all-seeing being to threaten them
with eternal hellfire or whatever to behave, are only behaving out of
fear, not because it's the right thing to do.

I do good, because it's the right thing to do, and makes me feel good.

I do have a hard time believing in the Christian God. If a single being
created the world, he created a great deal of animals that kill other
animals, causing a great deal of suffering and pain. I have trouble
believing a benevolent God would create a system that requires creatures
to rely on killing and eating other beings to survive. I think that
system was created by evolution, through survival of the fittest.

I've not read the bible (though I should), one thing that's always
bothered me is that, if all humankind descends from just two people,
that means a whole heck of a lot of incest was going on there in the
beginning, doesn't it?

jmc

Bill Graham
January 25th 10, 05:29 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:35:40 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>>
>> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
>> t...
>> > Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:46:13 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>> >> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
>> >> t...
>> >
>> >> Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9
>> > @comcast.net>:
>> >>> There are some, (me, for example) who do not believe in any God,
>> >>> and think that all animals are equal. (They all feel pain and
>> >>> suffering, both mental and physical)
>> >
>> >> > To say that a flatworm is equal to a chimp or a human is just
>> >> > absurd.
>> >> > I'll concede that a flatworm may feel pain (though I don't know if
>> >> > that's actually true) but it's absurd to describe it as experiencing
>> >> > mental suffering or mental anything.
>> >>
>> >> Interesting that you include chimps with human beings, but exclude
>> >> flatworms. Just where do you draw the line when it comes to pain and
>> >> suffering?
>> >
>> > I *don't* draw a line, because of course things are on a continuum.
>> > There is no bright line, and an attempt to create one is nutty.
>> >
>> > It's obvious that a cat is more intelligent than a flatworm; it's
>> > equally obvious that it's less intelligent than a chimp.
>> >
>> > It's also obvious that a cat is more self aware than a flatworm. It's
>> > maybe not obvious but I think most would a agree that a cat is less
>> > self aware than a chimp.
>> >
>> > It's obvious that a cat has greater capacity for suffering than a
>> > flatworm. Whether a cat has less capacity than a chimp, I don't
>> > know.
>> >
>> > The point is, it's absurd to say "all animals are equal", meaning
>> > that have the same capacity for suffering. It is equally absurd to
>> > try to draw a line and say that any particular quality is possessed
>> > by animals on one side of the line and not possessed by animals on
>> > the other side.
>> >
>> So your criteria seems to be based on intelligence. That means that if
>> someone is stupid, it's OK to mistreat them in some way that you wouldn't
>> mistreat an intelligent person?
>>
>> Just asking.........
>
> Setting up a straw man, you mean. I can't see how you could make
> your comment if you actually read what I wrote.
>
No, I'm just wondering what your rational is for not caring about the
suffering of one species, but caring about the suffering of some other
species. There are religious sects in India that spend their walking lives
staring at the ground so they do not step on some insect and cause it to
suffer and/or die......Of course, that is illogical too, since there are
germs that cannot be seen that will suffer and/or die when stepped on. But
you misinterpret my questioning......I am not trying to discredit you in any
way.....I am really interested in finding a basis for your logic.
Personally, I find this world to be a place of suffering for all species on
a most distressing grand scale, but I haven't a clue what to do about it. I
certainly will not, however, seek to worship whoever or whatever created it.
(assuming it was created by any logic whatsoever)

Bill Graham
January 25th 10, 05:36 AM
"jmc" > wrote in message
...
> Suddenly, without warning, Bill Graham exclaimed (1/23/2010 4:45 PM):
>>
>> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:46:11 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>>>> And this is largely the cause of my atheism. . ...
>>>> Of what possible use is a God whom I have never
>>>> seen, or seen any evidence of, during my entire 74 years?
>>>
>>> Well, if we're going to go there, my views are similar.
>>>
>>> I remember reading the story of Laplace and Napoleon, and being
>>> struck by how well it echoed my own thinking.
>>>
>>> Laplace dedicated an astronomical treatise on the Solar System to
>>> Napoleon. the emperor leafed through it and remarked, "I see no
>>> mention of God in this book, Monsieur."
>>>
>>> Laplace replied, brilliantly IMHO, "Sire, I had no need of that
>>> hypothesis."
>>>
>> Yes. Well, apparently religious people believe that their God, even
>> though refusing to appear or affect them in any way whatsoever for their
>> entire lives, will suddenly appear after they are dead, and whisk them
>> away to some never-never land in the sky for all eternity. I find this
>> truly amazing. It must be very nice to be able to believe that, but
>> unfortunately, my own personal belief system is not built that way. I
>> don't believe what is convenient to believe. I believe that which I
>> estimate to be probable, and don't believe that which I estimate to be
>> improbable. And, in my estimation, the improbability of the Christian
>> myth is overwhelming.
>
> Here's my whine: People who need an all-seeing being to threaten them
> with eternal hellfire or whatever to behave, are only behaving out of
> fear, not because it's the right thing to do.
>
> I do good, because it's the right thing to do, and makes me feel good.
>
> I do have a hard time believing in the Christian God. If a single being
> created the world, he created a great deal of animals that kill other
> animals, causing a great deal of suffering and pain. I have trouble
> believing a benevolent God would create a system that requires creatures
> to rely on killing and eating other beings to survive. I think that
> system was created by evolution, through survival of the fittest.
>
> I've not read the bible (though I should), one thing that's always
> bothered me is that, if all humankind descends from just two people, that
> means a whole heck of a lot of incest was going on there in the beginning,
> doesn't it?
>
> jmc

Yes.....The Bible leaves a lot of things out......For example, if Cain
Killed Able and went away to establish a family of his own, where did his
wife come from? - Was there another creation going on over the hill
somewhere? But there are groups that discuss things like this ad
nauseum......I think it would serve us better here if we kind of stuck to
cats.....:^)

Stan Brown
January 25th 10, 03:10 PM
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:20:39 -0500 from jmc
>:
> I do have a hard time believing in the Christian God. If a single being
> created the world, he created a great deal of animals that kill other
> animals, causing a great deal of suffering and pain.

Flies. How a so-called good god could create flies ....


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 25th 10, 03:29 PM
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:20:39 -0500 from jmc
>:
> I've not read the bible (though I should), one thing that's always
> bothered me is that, if all humankind descends from just two people,
> that means a whole heck of a lot of incest was going on there in the
> beginning, doesn't it?

Watch /Inherit the Wind/. Spencer Tracy's character has a lot of fun
with this one. "'And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived.'
Where'd she come from?" "Who?" "Mrs. Cain."



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 25th 10, 04:33 PM
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:29:50 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
> No, I'm just wondering what your rational is for not caring about the
> suffering of one species, but caring about the suffering of some other
> species.

Once again, you're misrepresenting what I said and you're trying to
make things a matter of black and white. It's not a matter of "care
about this, don't care about that". It's a matter of "care more
about this, less about that".



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Bill Graham
January 26th 10, 08:52 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:20:39 -0500 from jmc
> >:
>> I do have a hard time believing in the Christian God. If a single being
>> created the world, he created a great deal of animals that kill other
>> animals, causing a great deal of suffering and pain.
>
> Flies. How a so-called good god could create flies ....

Mark Twain had a good story about Noah, after three days at sea, having to
go back because he found out that he didn't have a male fly......:^)

Bill Graham
January 26th 10, 08:56 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:29:50 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>> No, I'm just wondering what your rational is for not caring about the
>> suffering of one species, but caring about the suffering of some other
>> species.
>
> Once again, you're misrepresenting what I said and you're trying to
> make things a matter of black and white. It's not a matter of "care
> about this, don't care about that". It's a matter of "care more
> about this, less about that".
>
Agreed.....I can't help it. I'm a mathematician. I tend to see things in
black and white. But as long as you realize that all creatures suffer,
that's good enough for me.

Wayne Mitchell
January 26th 10, 01:45 PM
"Bill Graham" > wrote:

>But as long as you realize that all creatures suffer,
>that's good enough for me.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization. How narrow is your definition
of "creature"? How broad is your definition of "suffer"? Single-celled
organisms will endeavor to avoid certain stimuli, as will plants. Is
that because such stimuli cause "suffering"? If yes, does that render
the idea that we humans should avoid causing suffering in other species,
or seek to alleviate such suffering when found, totally meaningless?

--

Wayne M.

Bill Graham
January 26th 10, 07:48 PM
"Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>
>>But as long as you realize that all creatures suffer,
>>that's good enough for me.
>
> That's a pretty sweeping generalization. How narrow is your definition
> of "creature"? How broad is your definition of "suffer"? Single-celled
> organisms will endeavor to avoid certain stimuli, as will plants. Is
> that because such stimuli cause "suffering"? If yes, does that render
> the idea that we humans should avoid causing suffering in other species,
> or seek to alleviate such suffering when found, totally meaningless?
>
> --
>
> Wayne M.

Errrr......yes?

We all have to draw a line somewhere in the sand......I just draw it way
below the cats......I can't do much about the single celled and most of the
insects, but I can feed my raccoons, squirrels, birds and an occasional
possum. I do believe that they all suffer, however, and I blame the (great)
creator for that.

Stan Brown
January 27th 10, 03:31 AM
Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:56:03 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>
> "Stan Brown" > wrote in message
> t...
> > Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:29:50 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
> >> No, I'm just wondering what your rational is for not caring about the
> >> suffering of one species, but caring about the suffering of some other
> >> species.
> >
> > Once again, you're misrepresenting what I said and you're trying to
> > make things a matter of black and white. It's not a matter of "care
> > about this, don't care about that". It's a matter of "care more
> > about this, less about that".
> >
> Agreed.....I can't help it. I'm a mathematician. I tend to see things in
> black and white. But as long as you realize that all creatures suffer,
> that's good enough for me.

Funny -- most mathematicians know that there are more numbers than
two.

And I do *not* agree that all animals suffer. How can an animal that
has no pain receptors feel pain?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 27th 10, 03:32 AM
Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:48:15 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
> We all have to draw a line somewhere in the sand

I don't mean to be harsh, but that's the fundamental error in your
thinking -- an error you share with an awful lot of people, but an
error all the same.



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Wayne Mitchell
January 27th 10, 03:48 PM
Stan Brown > wrote:

>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:48:15 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>> We all have to draw a line somewhere in the sand
>
>I don't mean to be harsh, but that's the fundamental error in your
>thinking -- an error you share with an awful lot of people, but an
>error all the same.

What's the error? I agree with Bill that lines do have to be drawn,
both by individuals and by society. We may not understand why we draw
them where we do, and we may not draw them with any logical consistency,
but without drawing lines we would be unable to function at all.

For the current discussion, that means that we have to decide, for
ourselves and as society, which animals are to be treated as though they
have the same rights that we humans do, which are to be treated as
though they have some lesser degree of rights, and which may be treated
as though they have no rights at all. We cannot shirk the duty of
making these decisions, and they will not be easy or clear ones.
--

Wayne M.

MLB[_2_]
January 27th 10, 09:49 PM
Kelly Greene wrote:
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I don't know if there is or isn't a God. Sometimes I feel there isn't
>>> just because of all the suffering and misery on the earth. How can a God
>>> allow it? Not just people are suffering, but the animals as well.
>>> --
>>
>> Exactly. And this is largely the cause of my atheism. Some lie in a field
>> of grass in the daytime, and observe the buzzing of the bees, and the
>> chirping of the birds and ask, "How could there not be a God who created
>> all this beauty." I lie awake at night, and listen to the moaning from
>> cold and hunger and the screams of pain that come from the jungle that I
>> call my back yard, and wonder what kind of monster would create such a
>> world and not rush to repair it. And, if monster he is, why would anyone,
>> "worship" him? To me, a God, (any God) has to have some use, or it
>> wouldn't matter whether you believed in him or not......Of what possible
>> use is a God whom I have never seen, or seen any evidence of, during my
>> entire 74 years? A typewriter, dropped from the roof of a 100 story
>> office
>> building, has just as much chance of hitting a child on the sidewalk
>> below
>> as it does of hitting a trash can. Only the percentage of the surface
>> area
>> of the sidewalk covered by either of these objects enters into the
>> equation. Not all your prayers or curses will change that equation in the
>> slightest. So, if God exists, he does absolutely nothing for any of us. I
>> would as soon worship a banana. At least the peel might trip up an
>> escaping criminal......:^)
>
> This is so true. My mind often goes off in the same direction. I suppose
> some day we'll know for sure since no one lives forever. I'm in no
> hurry to
> find out,... if you get my drift. ;-)
>
>
Question: If you don't believe, what makes you think you will ever
"find out?" MLB

Bill Graham
January 28th 10, 01:28 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:48:15 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>> We all have to draw a line somewhere in the sand
>
> I don't mean to be harsh, but that's the fundamental error in your
> thinking -- an error you share with an awful lot of people, but an
> error all the same.

Well, if you never make any decisions, then I am very happy for you......(I
guess.....)

Bill Graham
January 28th 10, 01:35 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I don't know if there is or isn't a God. Sometimes I feel there isn't
>>> just because of all the suffering and misery on the earth. How can a God
>>> allow it? Not just people are suffering, but the animals as well.
>>> --
>>
>> Exactly. And this is largely the cause of my atheism. Some lie in a field
>> of grass in the daytime, and observe the buzzing of the bees, and the
>> chirping of the birds and ask, "How could there not be a God who created
>> all this beauty." I lie awake at night, and listen to the moaning from
>> cold and hunger and the screams of pain that come from the jungle that I
>> call my back yard, and wonder what kind of monster would create such a
>> world and not rush to repair it. And, if monster he is, why would anyone,
>> "worship" him? To me, a God, (any God) has to have some use, or it
>> wouldn't matter whether you believed in him or not......Of what possible
>> use is a God whom I have never seen, or seen any evidence of, during my
>> entire 74 years? A typewriter, dropped from the roof of a 100 story
>> office
>> building, has just as much chance of hitting a child on the sidewalk
>> below
>> as it does of hitting a trash can. Only the percentage of the surface
>> area
>> of the sidewalk covered by either of these objects enters into the
>> equation. Not all your prayers or curses will change that equation in the
>> slightest. So, if God exists, he does absolutely nothing for any of us. I
>> would as soon worship a banana. At least the peel might trip up an
>> escaping criminal......:^)
>
> This is so true. My mind often goes off in the same direction. I suppose
> some day we'll know for sure since no one lives forever. I'm in no hurry
> to
> find out,... if you get my drift. ;-)
>

Yes.....Carry a pistol.....As one friend of mine said the other day, when
asked why he carries a gun: "Because cops are too heavy".

Bill Graham
January 28th 10, 01:38 AM
"Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Brown > wrote:
>
>>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:48:15 -0800 from Bill Graham >:
>>> We all have to draw a line somewhere in the sand
>>
>>I don't mean to be harsh, but that's the fundamental error in your
>>thinking -- an error you share with an awful lot of people, but an
>>error all the same.
>
> What's the error? I agree with Bill that lines do have to be drawn,
> both by individuals and by society. We may not understand why we draw
> them where we do, and we may not draw them with any logical consistency,
> but without drawing lines we would be unable to function at all.
>
> For the current discussion, that means that we have to decide, for
> ourselves and as society, which animals are to be treated as though they
> have the same rights that we humans do, which are to be treated as
> though they have some lesser degree of rights, and which may be treated
> as though they have no rights at all. We cannot shirk the duty of
> making these decisions, and they will not be easy or clear ones.
> --
>
> Wayne M.

Yeah.....Unfortunately, I tend to draw the line for my own
convenience.....It depends on how good the meat tastes.....:^)

Bill Graham
January 28th 10, 01:44 AM
"MLB" > wrote in message
...
> Kelly Greene wrote:
>>
>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> I don't know if there is or isn't a God. Sometimes I feel there isn't
>>>> just because of all the suffering and misery on the earth. How can a
>>>> God
>>>> allow it? Not just people are suffering, but the animals as well.
>>>> --
>>>
>>> Exactly. And this is largely the cause of my atheism. Some lie in a
>>> field
>>> of grass in the daytime, and observe the buzzing of the bees, and the
>>> chirping of the birds and ask, "How could there not be a God who created
>>> all this beauty." I lie awake at night, and listen to the moaning from
>>> cold and hunger and the screams of pain that come from the jungle that I
>>> call my back yard, and wonder what kind of monster would create such a
>>> world and not rush to repair it. And, if monster he is, why would
>>> anyone,
>>> "worship" him? To me, a God, (any God) has to have some use, or it
>>> wouldn't matter whether you believed in him or not......Of what possible
>>> use is a God whom I have never seen, or seen any evidence of, during my
>>> entire 74 years? A typewriter, dropped from the roof of a 100 story
>>> office
>>> building, has just as much chance of hitting a child on the sidewalk
>>> below
>>> as it does of hitting a trash can. Only the percentage of the surface
>>> area
>>> of the sidewalk covered by either of these objects enters into the
>>> equation. Not all your prayers or curses will change that equation in
>>> the
>>> slightest. So, if God exists, he does absolutely nothing for any of us.
>>> I
>>> would as soon worship a banana. At least the peel might trip up an
>>> escaping criminal......:^)
>>
>> This is so true. My mind often goes off in the same direction. I
>> suppose
>> some day we'll know for sure since no one lives forever. I'm in no hurry
>> to
>> find out,... if you get my drift. ;-)
>>
>>
> Question: If you don't believe, what makes you think you will ever "find
> out?" MLB

That's right. for us atheists, there is no, "I told you so". Also we have no
ax to grind....We don't get any brownie points for gathering converts to our
point of view. Which is why we usually aren't a PIA to others, like a lot of
religious people I know......

Stan Brown
January 28th 10, 01:00 PM
Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:48:55 -0500 from Wayne Mitchell <gwmitchell104
@pobox.com>:
> For the current discussion, that means that we have to decide, for
> ourselves and as society, which animals are to be treated as though they
> have the same rights that we humans do, which are to be treated as
> though they have some lesser degree of rights, and which may be treated
> as though they have no rights at all. We cannot shirk the duty of
> making these decisions, and they will not be easy or clear ones.

You're nearer right than Bill is, because you obviously understand
the key point: that there is not one unique line to be "drawn in the
sand".


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown
January 28th 10, 01:02 PM
Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:22 -0700 from MLB >:
> Kelly Greene wrote:
> > This is so true. My mind often goes off in the same direction. I suppose
> > some day we'll know for sure since no one lives forever. I'm in no
> > hurry to
> > find out,... if you get my drift. ;-)
> >
> Question: If you don't believe, what makes you think you will ever
> "find out?" MLB

Being an atheist does not logically require disbelief in an
afterlife.

I expect few to no atheists actually do believe in an afterlife, but
the position is not a logical contradiction.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Bill Graham
January 29th 10, 01:22 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:22 -0700 from MLB >:
>> Kelly Greene wrote:
>> > This is so true. My mind often goes off in the same direction. I
>> > suppose
>> > some day we'll know for sure since no one lives forever. I'm in no
>> > hurry to
>> > find out,... if you get my drift. ;-)
>> >
>> Question: If you don't believe, what makes you think you will ever
>> "find out?" MLB
>
> Being an atheist does not logically require disbelief in an
> afterlife.
>
> I expect few to no atheists actually do believe in an afterlife, but
> the position is not a logical contradiction.
>
That depends on how you define atheism. To me, it is absolutely no belief in
anything supernatural whatsoever. If it ain't part of physics, then I don't
believe in it. So belief in an afterlife is not any reasonable part of my
philosophy. If "atheism" isn't defined this way, then I need another word,
but I don't know what that word would be.

Bill Graham
January 29th 10, 01:31 AM
"Stan Brown" > wrote in message
t...
> Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:48:55 -0500 from Wayne Mitchell <gwmitchell104
> @pobox.com>:
>> For the current discussion, that means that we have to decide, for
>> ourselves and as society, which animals are to be treated as though they
>> have the same rights that we humans do, which are to be treated as
>> though they have some lesser degree of rights, and which may be treated
>> as though they have no rights at all. We cannot shirk the duty of
>> making these decisions, and they will not be easy or clear ones.
>
> You're nearer right than Bill is, because you obviously understand
> the key point: that there is not one unique line to be "drawn in the
> sand".
>
I never said that there had to be a unique line......Everyone draws the line
where he/she wants to draw it, and no two people have to draw it in the same
place. All I said was that I have a line, and I try to not cross over it. I
don't like killing animals, but I still enjoy my Turkey dinner every
Thanksgiving. Part of the reason for this is that I still have to eat. I
didn't design this world. If I had, then I would have figured out how to
obtain meat without killing anything, or hurting anything. But God either
couldn't, or wouldn't do that, apparently. It is entirely possible, however,
that us humans will figure out how to obtain meat without killing any other
animal. We might be able to grow meat without any nervous system in the
future, so there would be no pain involved in killing it and/or eating it.

Wayne Mitchell
January 30th 10, 02:35 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote:

>That depends on how you define atheism. To me, it is absolutely no belief in
>anything supernatural whatsoever. If it ain't part of physics, then I don't
>believe in it. So belief in an afterlife is not any reasonable part of my
>philosophy. If "atheism" isn't defined this way, then I need another word,
>but I don't know what that word would be.

The word would be "materialism" -- though it's a difficult one to use
because of its other meanings and associations. But "atheism" can't be
stretched far enough to cover what you are describing. There are
innumerable atheists who accept some form of supernaturalism.
--

Wayne M.

Bill Graham
January 30th 10, 03:44 AM
"Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>
>>That depends on how you define atheism. To me, it is absolutely no belief
>>in
>>anything supernatural whatsoever. If it ain't part of physics, then I
>>don't
>>believe in it. So belief in an afterlife is not any reasonable part of my
>>philosophy. If "atheism" isn't defined this way, then I need another word,
>>but I don't know what that word would be.
>
> The word would be "materialism" -- though it's a difficult one to use
> because of its other meanings and associations. But "atheism" can't be
> stretched far enough to cover what you are describing. There are
> innumerable atheists who accept some form of supernaturalism.
> --
>
> Wayne M.

Well, it seems to me that if you can accept the supernatural, then you can
accept the concept of a God.......Perhaps not the Christian myth, but some
form of God, never the less. In my case, since I can't accept any kind or
concept of magic, it follows logically that I can't accept any form of God
whatsoever.

dgk
February 1st 10, 02:35 PM
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:44:13 -0800, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>
>"Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
...
>> "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>>
>>>That depends on how you define atheism. To me, it is absolutely no belief
>>>in
>>>anything supernatural whatsoever. If it ain't part of physics, then I
>>>don't
>>>believe in it. So belief in an afterlife is not any reasonable part of my
>>>philosophy. If "atheism" isn't defined this way, then I need another word,
>>>but I don't know what that word would be.
>>
>> The word would be "materialism" -- though it's a difficult one to use
>> because of its other meanings and associations. But "atheism" can't be
>> stretched far enough to cover what you are describing. There are
>> innumerable atheists who accept some form of supernaturalism.
>> --
>>
>> Wayne M.
>
>Well, it seems to me that if you can accept the supernatural, then you can
>accept the concept of a God.......Perhaps not the Christian myth, but some
>form of God, never the less. In my case, since I can't accept any kind or
>concept of magic, it follows logically that I can't accept any form of God
>whatsoever.

I'm sure there is plenty of physics that we don't know about yet. But
we're here and here is somewhere, which means that there should be
something outside of the somewhere.

All I know about heaven though is that they better allow cats or I'm
not going. Not that I'm likely to be invited in any case.

Keep in mind Arthur C Clarke's three laws, particularly #3:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws

I'm agnostic. I don't believe any of the organized religions but I
think it likely that life has some purpose. Sort of like an ant
looking up at a person; I don't think I'm in any position to figure
out what it is. Though my dimensions are expanding (mostly weight), I
think I'm missing a few that are necessary to figure the thing out.

My mother once said to a neighbor that he had the best of both worlds,
if he was right he was going to wake up in heaven. And if he was
wrong, he was never going to know.

cybercat
February 1st 10, 05:51 PM
Now I see why people like to adopt kittens, but I also see why it is easier
to adopt an adult cat. Matthew, you were right, she is a little demon!
Slayer of paper towel rolls and toilet paper rolls extraordinaire! And she
does this flying leap with her mouth open and her legs splayed then sticks
on your leg or back or ass like velcro only with teeth and claws. Also,
there is the feather on a stick. You hold it up,maybe waist level in the
carpeted areas. She disappears. Hunkers down. Takes her time. THEN the
flying leap, her long skinny body kind of corkscrewing in mid air. :) She
has to see the target, then hide and attack from afar.

My older cat plays with her now, but is still teaching her boundaries. She
just gets the high ground, a nice spot in the sun, and if the kitten screws
with her, descends with the Iron Paw and slaps her right out of the ball
park. Gives me a satisfied Mona Lisa cat smile. :)

Stan Brown
February 2nd 10, 12:18 PM
Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:35:29 -0500 from dgk >:
> But we're here and here is somewhere, which means that there should
> be something outside of the somewhere.

That's a VERY large assumption, and I doubt you'll find many
physicists, astronomers, or cosmologists to agree.



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

dgk
February 2nd 10, 01:46 PM
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 07:18:23 -0500, Stan Brown
> wrote:

>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:35:29 -0500 from dgk >:
>> But we're here and here is somewhere, which means that there should
>> be something outside of the somewhere.
>
>That's a VERY large assumption, and I doubt you'll find many
>physicists, astronomers, or cosmologists to agree.

"Here" could just extend forever, but isn't the size of the universe
more or less known? So it just ends at nothing? Could be I suppose but
that would be boring. Of course, there's still a lot of territory to
investigate before we hit the end. I'm likely to be dead before that
happens. Damn, I miss all the fun.

dgk
February 2nd 10, 01:53 PM
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:51:50 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>Now I see why people like to adopt kittens, but I also see why it is easier
>to adopt an adult cat. Matthew, you were right, she is a little demon!
>Slayer of paper towel rolls and toilet paper rolls extraordinaire! And she
>does this flying leap with her mouth open and her legs splayed then sticks
>on your leg or back or ass like velcro only with teeth and claws. Also,
>there is the feather on a stick. You hold it up,maybe waist level in the
>carpeted areas. She disappears. Hunkers down. Takes her time. THEN the
>flying leap, her long skinny body kind of corkscrewing in mid air. :) She
>has to see the target, then hide and attack from afar.
>
>My older cat plays with her now, but is still teaching her boundaries. She
>just gets the high ground, a nice spot in the sun, and if the kitten screws
>with her, descends with the Iron Paw and slaps her right out of the ball
>park. Gives me a satisfied Mona Lisa cat smile. :)
>
Would you like two more? They're so cute but they keep trying to run
in my door. Their daddy (Scooter) is spending more time inside but
mostly because he runs in when I feed them in the morning and he's
stuck inside until someone gets home. The other three are still
hissing at hime but it does seem to be calming down a little bit.

I should have bought the king bed. Me, Significant Other, Nipsy,
Marlo, and Scooter are a bit much for a queen. Luckily Epsy likes to
spend most of the night on the window platform or one of the cat
trees.

There's just no way I can take in the babies.

Matthew[_3_]
February 2nd 10, 04:41 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
> Now I see why people like to adopt kittens, but I also see why it is
> easier to adopt an adult cat. Matthew, you were right, she is a little
> demon! Slayer of paper towel rolls and toilet paper rolls extraordinaire!
> And she does this flying leap with her mouth open and her legs splayed
> then sticks on your leg or back or ass like velcro only with teeth and
> claws. Also, there is the feather on a stick. You hold it up,maybe waist
> level in the carpeted areas. She disappears. Hunkers down. Takes her time.
> THEN the flying leap, her long skinny body kind of corkscrewing in mid
> air. :) She has to see the target, then hide and attack from afar.
>
> My older cat plays with her now, but is still teaching her boundaries. She
> just gets the high ground, a nice spot in the sun, and if the kitten
> screws with her, descends with the Iron Paw and slaps her right out of the
> ball park. Gives me a satisfied Mona Lisa cat smile. :)
Now if I can convince mine that they are not kittens anymore they are still
LITTLE DEVILS

cybercat
February 2nd 10, 04:58 PM
"Matthew" > wrote
> Now if I can convince mine that they are not kittens anymore they are
> still LITTLE DEVILS

:) Bella is like a deranged monkey. She carries things off in her mouth, and
must have everything shiny, which of course she bats around until they go
under something she can't reach under.

cybercat
February 2nd 10, 04:58 PM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:51:50 -0500, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
>
>>Now I see why people like to adopt kittens, but I also see why it is
>>easier
>>to adopt an adult cat. Matthew, you were right, she is a little demon!
>>Slayer of paper towel rolls and toilet paper rolls extraordinaire! And she
>>does this flying leap with her mouth open and her legs splayed then sticks
>>on your leg or back or ass like velcro only with teeth and claws. Also,
>>there is the feather on a stick. You hold it up,maybe waist level in the
>>carpeted areas. She disappears. Hunkers down. Takes her time. THEN the
>>flying leap, her long skinny body kind of corkscrewing in mid air. :) She
>>has to see the target, then hide and attack from afar.
>>
>>My older cat plays with her now, but is still teaching her boundaries. She
>>just gets the high ground, a nice spot in the sun, and if the kitten
>>screws
>>with her, descends with the Iron Paw and slaps her right out of the ball
>>park. Gives me a satisfied Mona Lisa cat smile. :)
>>
> Would you like two more? They're so cute but they keep trying to run
> in my door. Their daddy (Scooter) is spending more time inside but
> mostly because he runs in when I feed them in the morning and he's
> stuck inside until someone gets home. The other three are still
> hissing at hime but it does seem to be calming down a little bit.
>
> I should have bought the king bed. Me, Significant Other, Nipsy,
> Marlo, and Scooter are a bit much for a queen. Luckily Epsy likes to
> spend most of the night on the window platform or one of the cat
> trees.
>
> There's just no way I can take in the babies.

I know. There are too many to save them all. You do your best. Now get the
King bed. :)

Bill Graham
February 3rd 10, 12:00 AM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:44:13 -0800, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
...
>>> "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>That depends on how you define atheism. To me, it is absolutely no
>>>>belief
>>>>in
>>>>anything supernatural whatsoever. If it ain't part of physics, then I
>>>>don't
>>>>believe in it. So belief in an afterlife is not any reasonable part of
>>>>my
>>>>philosophy. If "atheism" isn't defined this way, then I need another
>>>>word,
>>>>but I don't know what that word would be.
>>>
>>> The word would be "materialism" -- though it's a difficult one to use
>>> because of its other meanings and associations. But "atheism" can't be
>>> stretched far enough to cover what you are describing. There are
>>> innumerable atheists who accept some form of supernaturalism.
>>> --
>>>
>>> Wayne M.
>>
>>Well, it seems to me that if you can accept the supernatural, then you can
>>accept the concept of a God.......Perhaps not the Christian myth, but some
>>form of God, never the less. In my case, since I can't accept any kind or
>>concept of magic, it follows logically that I can't accept any form of God
>>whatsoever.
>
> I'm sure there is plenty of physics that we don't know about yet. But
> we're here and here is somewhere, which means that there should be
> something outside of the somewhere.
>
> All I know about heaven though is that they better allow cats or I'm
> not going. Not that I'm likely to be invited in any case.
>
> Keep in mind Arthur C Clarke's three laws, particularly #3:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
>
> I'm agnostic. I don't believe any of the organized religions but I
> think it likely that life has some purpose. Sort of like an ant
> looking up at a person; I don't think I'm in any position to figure
> out what it is. Though my dimensions are expanding (mostly weight), I
> think I'm missing a few that are necessary to figure the thing out.

Well, there is also the issue of practacality......If the great creator
never does anything for you.....That is, you go through your whole live
without ever seeing anything good coming out of his existence, then what
good is he, and why bother with him at all? IOW, whether there is a God or
isn't a God, if he never does anything for me, then why would I care whether
he exists or not? In theory, he may exist, but I am certainly not going to
waste any time contemplating that possibility, or letting it interfere with
my enjoyment of life in any case.

> My mother once said to a neighbor that he had the best of both worlds,
> if he was right he was going to wake up in heaven. And if he was
> wrong, he was never going to know.

That's true if he doesn't waste too much "living" time in a church
somewhere.....But, in my experience, religious people usually enjoy their
religion, and don't hate worshiping their God(s). They do a lot of
socializing in the name of God, and they use his, "house" for their pot
lucks and bingo games.......:^)

dgk
February 3rd 10, 01:31 PM
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:00:11 -0800, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>
>"dgk" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:44:13 -0800, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Wayne Mitchell" > wrote in message
...
>>>> "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>That depends on how you define atheism. To me, it is absolutely no
>>>>>belief
>>>>>in
>>>>>anything supernatural whatsoever. If it ain't part of physics, then I
>>>>>don't
>>>>>believe in it. So belief in an afterlife is not any reasonable part of
>>>>>my
>>>>>philosophy. If "atheism" isn't defined this way, then I need another
>>>>>word,
>>>>>but I don't know what that word would be.
>>>>
>>>> The word would be "materialism" -- though it's a difficult one to use
>>>> because of its other meanings and associations. But "atheism" can't be
>>>> stretched far enough to cover what you are describing. There are
>>>> innumerable atheists who accept some form of supernaturalism.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Wayne M.
>>>
>>>Well, it seems to me that if you can accept the supernatural, then you can
>>>accept the concept of a God.......Perhaps not the Christian myth, but some
>>>form of God, never the less. In my case, since I can't accept any kind or
>>>concept of magic, it follows logically that I can't accept any form of God
>>>whatsoever.
>>
>> I'm sure there is plenty of physics that we don't know about yet. But
>> we're here and here is somewhere, which means that there should be
>> something outside of the somewhere.
>>
>> All I know about heaven though is that they better allow cats or I'm
>> not going. Not that I'm likely to be invited in any case.
>>
>> Keep in mind Arthur C Clarke's three laws, particularly #3:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
>>
>> I'm agnostic. I don't believe any of the organized religions but I
>> think it likely that life has some purpose. Sort of like an ant
>> looking up at a person; I don't think I'm in any position to figure
>> out what it is. Though my dimensions are expanding (mostly weight), I
>> think I'm missing a few that are necessary to figure the thing out.
>
>Well, there is also the issue of practacality......If the great creator
>never does anything for you.....That is, you go through your whole live
>without ever seeing anything good coming out of his existence, then what
>good is he, and why bother with him at all? IOW, whether there is a God or
>isn't a God, if he never does anything for me, then why would I care whether
>he exists or not? In theory, he may exist, but I am certainly not going to
>waste any time contemplating that possibility, or letting it interfere with
>my enjoyment of life in any case.
>
>> My mother once said to a neighbor that he had the best of both worlds,
>> if he was right he was going to wake up in heaven. And if he was
>> wrong, he was never going to know.
>
>That's true if he doesn't waste too much "living" time in a church
>somewhere.....But, in my experience, religious people usually enjoy their
>religion, and don't hate worshiping their God(s). They do a lot of
>socializing in the name of God, and they use his, "house" for their pot
>lucks and bingo games.......:^)



And if it wasn't for religious houses, where would 12 step groups find
meeting space?

dgk
February 3rd 10, 01:35 PM
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:58:56 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"dgk" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:51:50 -0500, "cybercat" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Now I see why people like to adopt kittens, but I also see why it is
>>>easier
>>>to adopt an adult cat. Matthew, you were right, she is a little demon!
>>>Slayer of paper towel rolls and toilet paper rolls extraordinaire! And she
>>>does this flying leap with her mouth open and her legs splayed then sticks
>>>on your leg or back or ass like velcro only with teeth and claws. Also,
>>>there is the feather on a stick. You hold it up,maybe waist level in the
>>>carpeted areas. She disappears. Hunkers down. Takes her time. THEN the
>>>flying leap, her long skinny body kind of corkscrewing in mid air. :) She
>>>has to see the target, then hide and attack from afar.
>>>
>>>My older cat plays with her now, but is still teaching her boundaries. She
>>>just gets the high ground, a nice spot in the sun, and if the kitten
>>>screws
>>>with her, descends with the Iron Paw and slaps her right out of the ball
>>>park. Gives me a satisfied Mona Lisa cat smile. :)
>>>
>> Would you like two more? They're so cute but they keep trying to run
>> in my door. Their daddy (Scooter) is spending more time inside but
>> mostly because he runs in when I feed them in the morning and he's
>> stuck inside until someone gets home. The other three are still
>> hissing at hime but it does seem to be calming down a little bit.
>>
>> I should have bought the king bed. Me, Significant Other, Nipsy,
>> Marlo, and Scooter are a bit much for a queen. Luckily Epsy likes to
>> spend most of the night on the window platform or one of the cat
>> trees.
>>
>> There's just no way I can take in the babies.
>
>I know. There are too many to save them all. You do your best. Now get the
>King bed. :)
>

I spent like $800 on that mattress! One of those foam things and we
love it. It takes some getting used to because you really do sink into
it but I mostly feel good when I get up. The cats certainly seem to
like it; even if we're not there they often sleep on it.

Stan Brown
February 6th 10, 02:29 AM
Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:46:54 -0500 from dgk >:
> "Here" could just extend forever, but isn't the size of the universe
> more or less known? So it just ends at nothing?

Analogy: Earth has a finite size, yet you can travel an infinite
distance in any desired direction along its surface. So it never
"ends at nothing".



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

dgk
February 9th 10, 02:02 PM
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 21:29:01 -0500, Stan Brown
> wrote:

>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:46:54 -0500 from dgk >:
>> "Here" could just extend forever, but isn't the size of the universe
>> more or less known? So it just ends at nothing?
>
>Analogy: Earth has a finite size, yet you can travel an infinite
>distance in any desired direction along its surface. So it never
>"ends at nothing".

Nonsense. I was just at an edge the other day. Driving along a
mountain road, on one side was a big mountain, on the other side,
nothing. (apologies to Arlo Guthrie).

But there is something outside the earth so no, it never ends at
nothing. Apparently the universe does though, unless it's some trick
like the mobius strip. I just know that I'm never going to find out
the answer. It's SO frustrating.

cybercat
February 9th 10, 04:23 PM
"dgk" > wrote

>It's SO frustrating.

:)