"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
[snip]
Try to relax. I know how frustrating it is. And please, please, please
don't even think about prozacing this cat.
[snip]

You can always tell a behavioralist ... you just can't tell them much!


It is stupid to medicate a cat without trying behavior modification.

"Mary" wrote in message
. com...

"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
[snip]
Try to relax. I know how frustrating it is. And please, please, please
don't even think about prozacing this cat.
[snip]

You can always tell a behavioralist ... you just can't tell them much!


It is stupid to medicate a cat without trying behavior modification.

Not unlike humans, cats can suffer from anxiety and anxiety-aggression
disorders that are highly refractory to treatment with behavioral- or
cognition-based socialization therapies ... the expedient, effective, safe,
and humane solution for these animals (as with humans) *begins* with
anti-depressant (e.g., fluoxetine) and/or anti-anxiety (e.g., buspirone)
medications, supplemented by behavioral and cognitive therapy as mitigation
of primary symptoms is observed. Stupid: no. Rational: yes.

"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
. com...

"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
[snip]
Try to relax. I know how frustrating it is. And please, please,
please
don't even think about prozacing this cat.
[snip]

You can always tell a behavioralist ... you just can't tell them much!


It is stupid to medicate a cat without trying behavior modification.

Not unlike humans, cats can suffer from anxiety and anxiety-aggression
disorders that are highly refractory to treatment with behavioral- or
cognition-based socialization therapies ... the expedient, effective,
safe,
and humane solution for these animals (as with humans) *begins* with
anti-depressant (e.g., fluoxetine) and/or anti-anxiety (e.g., buspirone)
medications, supplemented by behavioral and cognitive therapy as
mitigation
of primary symptoms is observed. Stupid: no. Rational: yes.



Given the side effects many medications have, if there is another way
for my cat I will try it first. (Not to mention how stressful it is for the
cat to be pilled.)

Is buspirone the same as Buspar? If so, withdrawal from that can
be dangerous and even cause seizures. Tell me, have you had cats
that are on medication? Or are you a vet, or both? I am curious about
what makes you feel so strongly about the benefits of these medicines
for cats.

"Not unlike humans, cats can suffer from anxiety and anxiety-aggression
disorders that are highly refractory to treatment with behavioral- or
cognition-based socialization therapies ... the expedient, effective,
safe,
and humane solution for these animals (as with humans) *begins* with
anti-depressant (e.g., fluoxetine) and/or anti-anxiety (e.g.,
buspirone)
medications, supplemented by behavioral and cognitive therapy as
mitigation
of primary symptoms is observed. Stupid: no. Rational: yes"

Please. I can't tell you the number of people I have known who have
been over medicated by the irresponsible dispensation of
anti-depression and anti-anxiety drugs and the hell they have gone
through getting off those things when they realized they'd been
zombified. Like people, anxiety and depression in a cat can be a
perfectly rational reaction to an anxiety-causing and upsetting
situation. Your cat has been through something frightening in her past
and she needs to recover from it and learn to trust again. Just like
people do. And with patience and love, she will do so. Unless you're
just too restless to give her that time. I know it works, I've seen it
happen. And it is a joyful experience to bring a little creature back
from the abyss and watch their personality bloom and the spring come
back into their step. Much more joyful than prozac'ing your cat.

"Mary" wrote in message
. com...

"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
. com...

"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
[snip]
Try to relax. I know how frustrating it is. And please, please,
please
don't even think about prozacing this cat.
[snip]

You can always tell a behavioralist ... you just can't tell them much!


It is stupid to medicate a cat without trying behavior modification.

Not unlike humans, cats can suffer from anxiety and anxiety-aggression
disorders that are highly refractory to treatment with behavioral- or
cognition-based socialization therapies ... the expedient, effective,
safe,
and humane solution for these animals (as with humans) *begins* with
anti-depressant (e.g., fluoxetine) and/or anti-anxiety (e.g., buspirone)
medications, supplemented by behavioral and cognitive therapy as
mitigation
of primary symptoms is observed. Stupid: no. Rational: yes.



Given the side effects many medications have, if there is another way
for my cat I will try it first. (Not to mention how stressful it is for
the
cat to be pilled.)

Is buspirone the same as Buspar? If so, withdrawal from that can
be dangerous and even cause seizures. Tell me, have you had cats
that are on medication? Or are you a vet, or both? I am curious about
what makes you feel so strongly about the benefits of these medicines
for cats.

Taking up your concern regarding side-effects first, the *only* published
clinical study of the use of fluoxetine (Prozac) in treating felines with
severe aggression and/or anxiety-related disorders found that at daily
dosages (1.0mg/kg) up to twice that which I have suggested from my own
experience (0.5mg/kg), there simply *were* no clinically-observable side
effects. None. You can study these findings, which were presented in 2003 at
the Thirteenth Biennial Symposium of The American Academy of Veterinary
Pharmacology and Therapeutics, within the proceedings for that meeting, a
download link for which is:
http://www.aavpt.org/symposia/2003Proceedings.pdf
Look for "New Therapeutic Horizons: Fluoxetine Pharmacology and Safety in
Dogs and Cats and Its Role in Behavior Modification" by Kirby Pasloske, DVM,
DVSc, DACVCP (beginning page 70 in proceedings, page 82 in .pdf document).
Another useful reference from the veterinary literature can be found at:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1F85496A

As for your question regarding my own experience with the use of fluoxetine
in treating various feline disorders, the answer is yes, I do have
experience treating two (2) neutered males and one (1) spayed female over
the course of two years. Of those, one is perhaps best illustrative of my
point. We adopted Mr. Buttons, a two-year-old neutered male ASH tabby in
robust physical health, from my wife's mother (age 90), who had become very
fearful of the cats spontaneous biting attacks, weary of his persistent
spraying, and frustrated with his otherwise reclusive and unsociable habits.

For almost two (2) years thereafter, we struggled to rehabilitate this poor
fellow using best practice in behavioral and cognition-based therapy, as
well as by using products such as Feliway (spraying), but Mr. Buttons
remained refractory to our very best efforts (we are experienced cat people,
maintaining a 2-7 cat household over the last twenty years). He was
relentless in his unprovoked attacks on other cats in our household, he was
dangerous in his unprovoked attacks on ourselves (often coming from another
room for the seemingly single and sole purpose of launching such an attack,
which frequently resulted in bleeding bite and scratch wounds), and his
spraying and peeing conquests were daily, pervasive, and destructive. What
to do?

Well, there came a day, following a particularly vicious biting-and-clawing
attack on my wife - one which left her absolutely terrified - when we both
agreed that it might no longer be possible to provide Mr. Buttons with a
home, and that euthanasia was the only remaining option (the local humane
society told us very firmly that adoption was a non-starter). I don't recall
ever feeling so poorly about myself as a steward and protector for our
companion animals as I did on hanging up the phone after talking to the
humane society about euthanizing Mr. Buttons. Despite all of his
shortcomings, we had found something about him to love and care for, and, as
I prepared to take Mr. Buttons to his end, we were both so overcome with
remorse that we found it impossible to speak about it with one another.

And then serendipity happened. My wife's friend arrived for an afternoon of
quilting or the like and, when we explained the reason for our distress, she
described a friend's successful experience treating their
'soon-for-the-pound' pooch with fluoxetine (Prozac), and it was this chance
passing of information that changed everything. I put the pet carrier away,
did some focused searching on the internet, and within 15 minutes I had
discovered and digested the above-referenced publications. Before the
afternoon was out, I had reviewed the situation with our vet (cats-only
practice), who was very familiar with Mr. Buttons' history, had reached
agreement on a trial of fluoxetine therapy, and we were off to the races on
a daily dose of 2.5mg (0.5mg/kg/day), prepared at home by quartering the
contents of 10mg fluoxetine caps and recapping in #4 gel caps.

The results were astounding. Within 48 hours, Mr. Buttons' spraying and
inappropriate peeing stopped completely, and over the next two weeks we
observed daily miracles as he went through a complete transformation of
demeanor and habit. He became sociable and gregarious, he stopped stalking
and attacking, and - wonder of all wonders - he mustered the courage to pass
over the threshold of our back door and in to our fenced and quite
cat-friendly back yard ... his first time in two years! These changes have
been robust over time, Mr. Buttons has experienced no clinically observable
side effects due to his daily medication, and the quality of his life has
improved immeasurably as a result. In point-of-fact, Mr. Buttons owes life
itself to the fluoxetine he has taken daily, and, curiously, he seems to
understand something about that because when I come around with his daily
dose, he is extraordinarily accommodating as I open his jaws and gently push
it to the back of his mouth ... and he has *never* spit out his meds, not
even once.

You can say what you like about the merits of non-medicative solutions to
feline anxiety, aggression, and elimination disorders, but the choices one
makes should be appropriate to the problem one is trying to resolve and the
issues that hang in the balance ... every day that a cat's dysfunction
remains unresolved - as the erstwhile owner doggedly exhausts one
behavior-modification solution after the next - is a day of low-quality life
that the animal will never recover, and a day closer to that point at which
the bond between human and companion animal has been so severely strained
that euthanasia remains as the only alternative. 'Smart' (as opposed to
'stupid', as you put it) means understanding that severe feline anxiety,
aggression, and elimination disorders are not bad behaviors ... they are
organic medical disorders, and they have to be treated with a combined
therapy that services this fact.

And, no, I am not a veterinarian ... nor are you.

"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
Taking up your concern regarding side-effects first, the *only* published
clinical study of the use of fluoxetine (Prozac) in treating felines with
severe aggression and/or anxiety-related disorders found that at daily
dosages (1.0mg/kg) up to twice that which I have suggested from my own
experience (0.5mg/kg), there simply *were* no clinically-observable side
effects. None. You can study these findings, which were presented in 2003
at
the Thirteenth Biennial Symposium of The American Academy of Veterinary
Pharmacology and Therapeutics, within the proceedings for that meeting, a
download link for which is:
http://www.aavpt.org/symposia/2003Proceedings.pdf
Look for "New Therapeutic Horizons: Fluoxetine Pharmacology and Safety in
Dogs and Cats and Its Role in Behavior Modification" by Kirby Pasloske,
DVM,
DVSc, DACVCP (beginning page 70 in proceedings, page 82 in .pdf document).
Another useful reference from the veterinary literature can be found at:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1F85496A


Thanks for the link, I will read it when time allows.

As for your question regarding my own experience with the use of
fluoxetine
in treating various feline disorders, the answer is yes, I do have
experience treating two (2) neutered males and one (1) spayed female over
the course of two years. Of those, one is perhaps best illustrative of my
point. We adopted Mr. Buttons, a two-year-old neutered male ASH tabby in
robust physical health, from my wife's mother (age 90), who had become
very
fearful of the cats spontaneous biting attacks, weary of his persistent
spraying, and frustrated with his otherwise reclusive and unsociable
habits.

For almost two (2) years thereafter, we struggled to rehabilitate this
poor
fellow using best practice in behavioral and cognition-based therapy, as
well as by using products such as Feliway (spraying), but Mr. Buttons
remained refractory to our very best efforts (we are experienced cat
people,
maintaining a 2-7 cat household over the last twenty years). He was
relentless in his unprovoked attacks on other cats in our household, he
was
dangerous in his unprovoked attacks on ourselves (often coming from
another
room for the seemingly single and sole purpose of launching such an
attack,
which frequently resulted in bleeding bite and scratch wounds), and his
spraying and peeing conquests were daily, pervasive, and destructive. What
to do?

This cat was neutered, right??

"Mary" wrote in message
. com...

"mpwilliams" wrote in message
...
Taking up your concern regarding side-effects first, the *only* published
clinical study of the use of fluoxetine (Prozac) in treating felines with
severe aggression and/or anxiety-related disorders found that at daily
dosages (1.0mg/kg) up to twice that which I have suggested from my own
experience (0.5mg/kg), there simply *were* no clinically-observable side
effects. None. You can study these findings, which were presented in 2003
at
the Thirteenth Biennial Symposium of The American Academy of Veterinary
Pharmacology and Therapeutics, within the proceedings for that meeting, a
download link for which is:
http://www.aavpt.org/symposia/2003Proceedings.pdf
Look for "New Therapeutic Horizons: Fluoxetine Pharmacology and Safety in
Dogs and Cats and Its Role in Behavior Modification" by Kirby Pasloske,
DVM,
DVSc, DACVCP (beginning page 70 in proceedings, page 82 in .pdf
document).
Another useful reference from the veterinary literature can be found at:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1F85496A


Thanks for the link, I will read it when time allows.

As for your question regarding my own experience with the use of
fluoxetine
in treating various feline disorders, the answer is yes, I do have
experience treating two (2) neutered males and one (1) spayed female over
the course of two years. Of those, one is perhaps best illustrative of my
point. We adopted Mr. Buttons, a two-year-old neutered male ASH tabby in
robust physical health, from my wife's mother (age 90), who had become
very
fearful of the cats spontaneous biting attacks, weary of his persistent
spraying, and frustrated with his otherwise reclusive and unsociable
habits.

For almost two (2) years thereafter, we struggled to rehabilitate this
poor
fellow using best practice in behavioral and cognition-based therapy, as
well as by using products such as Feliway (spraying), but Mr. Buttons
remained refractory to our very best efforts (we are experienced cat
people,
maintaining a 2-7 cat household over the last twenty years). He was
relentless in his unprovoked attacks on other cats in our household, he
was
dangerous in his unprovoked attacks on ourselves (often coming from
another
room for the seemingly single and sole purpose of launching such an
attack,
which frequently resulted in bleeding bite and scratch wounds), and his
spraying and peeing conquests were daily, pervasive, and destructive.
What
to do?

This cat was neutered, right??

Yes, "a two-year-old neutered male ASH tabby in robust physical health"
means, among other things, that he was (obviously) neutered.

"mpwilliams" wrote This cat was neutered,
right??

Yes, "a two-year-old neutered male ASH tabby in robust physical health"
means, among other things, that he was (obviously) neutered.



Sorry, I missed that. Great success story, thanks for sharing it. I am still
inclined to try other means before drugging my cats, but the information you
provided here may be helpful.

"The answer is yes, I do have experience treating two (2) neutered
males and one (1) spayed female over the course of two years"

And after this experienve with one cat, you found it appropriate to
treat two additional cats in the same manner in less than two years?

"every day that a cat's dysfunction remains unresolved - as the
erstwhile owner doggedly exhausts one behavior-modification solution
after the next - is a day of low-quality life that the animal will
never recover, and a day closer to that point at which the bond between
human and companion animal has been so severely strained that
euthanasia remains as the only alternative"

A cat learning to trust again after an upsetting and anxiety-provoking
experience isn't living a "low-quality life"- it's honoring it's own
instincts. The OP's cat isn't aggressive - it's simply hiding because
it doesn't feel safe yet. That's what cats do. Just because it takes a
long time by our standards doesn't make it an illness. It just makes it
a human inconvenience. And your second point is relevent only if one
considers euthanizing a healthy animal for being frightened. That's
nowhere on my list of options.

As I said before, you can always tell a behavioralist ... you just can't
tell them much!