| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
|
Which prescription diet best for chronic constipation/lazy bowels?
My 1.5 year-old male tabby recently had a bad bout of constipation. Toby
did not poo for over two days and a vet check-up found a substantially distended colon. The vet immediately put him on Propulsid (bowel stimulant) and Duphalac (lactulose syrup) but he still refused to poo for another two days. The vet finally administered an enema under anaesthesia, which thankfully helped empty Toby's bowels almost immediately. While x-rays taken before the enema showed a distended colon, it wasn't conclusive enough for a megacolon diagnosis. The vet has now put Toby on a mixture of Hill's Prescription Diet w/d dried and r/d canned, and reckons that Toby will also have to be on Propulsid and Duphalac for the rest of his life. [Toby was also recently diagnosed with struvite crystals in his urine, which necessitated the change of diet to Hill's w/d and r/d.] While I'm okay with Toby having to be fed a fairly expensive prescription diet for the rest of his life, I'm not sure I am prepared to continue paying my vet the exorbitant prices charged for the two drugs. I did some research and discovered that Duphalac can be had for as little as AUD$12 per 500ml bottle at pharmacies in Australia without needing a prescription - in contrast, my vet charges me AUD$25 for a mere 25ml bottle (which lasts less than a week). I am, of course, a little peeved at the obvious profiteering going on here. But that's OK, since it is something I can get around by getting the Duphalac myself. Propulsid is a more complicated matter - it is probably a prescription drug, which means I can't buy it over-the-counter at pharmacies, and my vet charges me AUD$65 for a wee little 25ml bottle. I also found out that propulsid has been withdrawn from the pharmaceutical market for humans because of allegations that it caused the deaths of several young children. So, quite apart from cost, there is the question of whether long term use of Propulsid could harm my little boy. So I am at a dilemma - should I risk stopping the use of the drugs and rely on the higher fibre combination w/d and r/d diets to keep Toby's bowels moving? What if I leave out the Propulsid and just rely on the Duphalac to keep Toby's stool soft/moist? Is a higher fibre diet (the Hill's w/d and r/d) necessarily better for chronic constipation or is a low-residue diet the way to go? Is canned pumpkin safe for a cat with a potential struvite crystals problem? Thanks a million to anyone who can shed some light on the above. :-) Devlin Perth, Australia |
By the way, Toby was fed a roughly 50%/50% diet consisting of IAMS Lamb &
Rice (dried) and Whiskas Advance (canned) with the occasional canned tuna as a treat (about once a week) before his crystals and constipation problems reared their ugly heads. He'll of course get no more tuna (or any other pseudo-people foods disguised as cat foods) from now on due to the struvite crystals problem. Devlin Perth, Australia |
By the way, Toby was fed a roughly 50%/50% diet consisting of IAMS Lamb &
Rice (dried) and Whiskas Advance (canned) with the occasional canned tuna as a treat (about once a week) before his crystals and constipation problems reared their ugly heads. He'll of course get no more tuna (or any other pseudo-people foods disguised as cat foods) from now on due to the struvite crystals problem. Devlin Perth, Australia |
From: "Devlin Tay"
So I am at a dilemma - should I risk stopping the use of the drugs and rely on the higher fibre combination w/d and r/d diets to keep Toby's bowels moving? If it were my cat, I would put him on a homemade diet, and also consult with a holistic vet. Constipation sometimes occurs when the cat doesn't get enough bulk in his diet or doesn't get enough exercise. Always make sure the litterbox is clean so the cat doesn't get into the habit of holding it in. Another thing you could try is adding olive oil. This can act as a tonic for the intestinal tract and stimulate liver bile. Any excess oil will help lubricate the fecal mass and sooth mucus membrane of the intenstine and rectum. I would suggest 1/2 to 1 teaspoon 2 times a day, mixed with food, until he is going regularly. It can also be given once a week for hairball prevention. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm |
The vet has now put Toby on a mixture of Hill's Prescription Diet w/d dried and r/d canned, and reckons that Toby will also have to be on Propulsid and Duphalac for the rest of his life. [Toby was also recently diagnosed with struvite crystals in his urine, which necessitated the change of diet to Hill's w/d and r/d.] While I'm okay with Toby having to be fed a fairly expensive prescription diet for the rest of his life, I'm not sure I am prepared to continue paying my vet the exorbitant prices charged for the two drugs. First of all, I have a real big problem with a vet that proclaims a cat has to be on a special food/drugs for "the rest of its life" because of *one* incident of constipation. I also question putting the cat on the foods you described for crystals in the urine. The best diet for both constipation and urinary tract issues (and in general) is one that is all canned, high quality (Iams is not) and fed on a schedule. I have two clients that have cats that had constipation issues that were never resolved using the prescription high fiber diets, and one of the cats was still constipated despite getting daily doses of mineral oil and a prescription stool softener and was in constant misery. Completely eliminating dry food and switching the cats to a high quality canned food fed on a 12 hour schedule resolved the constipation in both cases and eliminated the need for stool softeners as well. Canned is also beneficial for urinary tract issues as it greatly increases a cats water intake, which in turn helps to keep the urine more dilute and the bladder flushed. In general a canned diet isgoiong to be better for your cat and there is more and more information coming out that shows that dry foods are not great for cats (a good website that you can check out on this subject is http://www.catnutrition.org ) I would suggest trying this approach before deciding the cat has to have prescription drugs and diet for the rest of its life. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
The vet has now put Toby on a mixture of Hill's Prescription Diet w/d dried and r/d canned, and reckons that Toby will also have to be on Propulsid and Duphalac for the rest of his life. [Toby was also recently diagnosed with struvite crystals in his urine, which necessitated the change of diet to Hill's w/d and r/d.] While I'm okay with Toby having to be fed a fairly expensive prescription diet for the rest of his life, I'm not sure I am prepared to continue paying my vet the exorbitant prices charged for the two drugs. First of all, I have a real big problem with a vet that proclaims a cat has to be on a special food/drugs for "the rest of its life" because of *one* incident of constipation. I also question putting the cat on the foods you described for crystals in the urine. The best diet for both constipation and urinary tract issues (and in general) is one that is all canned, high quality (Iams is not) and fed on a schedule. I have two clients that have cats that had constipation issues that were never resolved using the prescription high fiber diets, and one of the cats was still constipated despite getting daily doses of mineral oil and a prescription stool softener and was in constant misery. Completely eliminating dry food and switching the cats to a high quality canned food fed on a 12 hour schedule resolved the constipation in both cases and eliminated the need for stool softeners as well. Canned is also beneficial for urinary tract issues as it greatly increases a cats water intake, which in turn helps to keep the urine more dilute and the bladder flushed. In general a canned diet isgoiong to be better for your cat and there is more and more information coming out that shows that dry foods are not great for cats (a good website that you can check out on this subject is http://www.catnutrition.org ) I would suggest trying this approach before deciding the cat has to have prescription drugs and diet for the rest of its life. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
"Devlin Tay" wrote in message . ..
My 1.5 year-old male tabby recently had a bad bout of constipation. Toby did not poo for over two days and a vet check-up found a substantially distended colon. The vet immediately put him on Propulsid (bowel stimulant) and Duphalac (lactulose syrup) but he still refused to poo for another two days. The vet finally administered an enema under anaesthesia, which thankfully helped empty Toby's bowels almost immediately. While x-rays taken before the enema showed a distended colon, it wasn't conclusive enough for a megacolon diagnosis. The vet has now put Toby on a mixture of Hill's Prescription Diet w/d dried and r/d canned, and reckons that Toby will also have to be on Propulsid and Duphalac for the rest of his life. [Toby was also recently diagnosed with struvite crystals in his urine, which necessitated the change of diet to Hill's w/d and r/d.] While I'm okay with Toby having to be fed a fairly expensive prescription diet for the rest of his life, I'm not sure I am prepared to continue paying my vet the exorbitant prices charged for the two drugs. I did some research and discovered that Duphalac can be had for as little as AUD$12 per 500ml bottle at pharmacies in Australia without needing a prescription - in contrast, my vet charges me AUD$25 for a mere 25ml bottle (which lasts less than a week). I am, of course, a little peeved at the obvious profiteering going on here. But that's OK, since it is something I can get around by getting the Duphalac myself. Propulsid is a more complicated matter - it is probably a prescription drug, which means I can't buy it over-the-counter at pharmacies, and my vet charges me AUD$65 for a wee little 25ml bottle. I also found out that propulsid has been withdrawn from the pharmaceutical market for humans because of allegations that it caused the deaths of several young children. So, quite apart from cost, there is the question of whether long term use of Propulsid could harm my little boy. So I am at a dilemma - should I risk stopping the use of the drugs and rely on the higher fibre combination w/d and r/d diets to keep Toby's bowels moving? What if I leave out the Propulsid and just rely on the Duphalac to keep Toby's stool soft/moist? Is a higher fibre diet (the Hill's w/d and r/d) necessarily better for chronic constipation or is a low-residue diet the way to go? Is canned pumpkin safe for a cat with a potential struvite crystals problem? I have seen r/d and w/d do nothing except keep a cat coming back to the vet for enemas. I would trash the Hills, put the cat on a hairball maintenence dry diet (which is higer in fiber and Mega 3 fatty acids) with pumpkin (if he will eat it) and also give plenty of canned food that is high in protein - such as Purina DM or a canned kitten diet. Protein is better utilized and lower-residue in nature. I would keep him on the drugs until he seems completely regulated. Make sure is he groomed frequently, get enough exercise and plenty of water. Massage can also help. best of luck to you, -L. |
"Devlin Tay" wrote in message . ..
My 1.5 year-old male tabby recently had a bad bout of constipation. Toby did not poo for over two days and a vet check-up found a substantially distended colon. The vet immediately put him on Propulsid (bowel stimulant) and Duphalac (lactulose syrup) but he still refused to poo for another two days. The vet finally administered an enema under anaesthesia, which thankfully helped empty Toby's bowels almost immediately. While x-rays taken before the enema showed a distended colon, it wasn't conclusive enough for a megacolon diagnosis. The vet has now put Toby on a mixture of Hill's Prescription Diet w/d dried and r/d canned, and reckons that Toby will also have to be on Propulsid and Duphalac for the rest of his life. [Toby was also recently diagnosed with struvite crystals in his urine, which necessitated the change of diet to Hill's w/d and r/d.] While I'm okay with Toby having to be fed a fairly expensive prescription diet for the rest of his life, I'm not sure I am prepared to continue paying my vet the exorbitant prices charged for the two drugs. I did some research and discovered that Duphalac can be had for as little as AUD$12 per 500ml bottle at pharmacies in Australia without needing a prescription - in contrast, my vet charges me AUD$25 for a mere 25ml bottle (which lasts less than a week). I am, of course, a little peeved at the obvious profiteering going on here. But that's OK, since it is something I can get around by getting the Duphalac myself. Propulsid is a more complicated matter - it is probably a prescription drug, which means I can't buy it over-the-counter at pharmacies, and my vet charges me AUD$65 for a wee little 25ml bottle. I also found out that propulsid has been withdrawn from the pharmaceutical market for humans because of allegations that it caused the deaths of several young children. So, quite apart from cost, there is the question of whether long term use of Propulsid could harm my little boy. So I am at a dilemma - should I risk stopping the use of the drugs and rely on the higher fibre combination w/d and r/d diets to keep Toby's bowels moving? What if I leave out the Propulsid and just rely on the Duphalac to keep Toby's stool soft/moist? Is a higher fibre diet (the Hill's w/d and r/d) necessarily better for chronic constipation or is a low-residue diet the way to go? Is canned pumpkin safe for a cat with a potential struvite crystals problem? I have seen r/d and w/d do nothing except keep a cat coming back to the vet for enemas. I would trash the Hills, put the cat on a hairball maintenence dry diet (which is higer in fiber and Mega 3 fatty acids) with pumpkin (if he will eat it) and also give plenty of canned food that is high in protein - such as Purina DM or a canned kitten diet. Protein is better utilized and lower-residue in nature. I would keep him on the drugs until he seems completely regulated. Make sure is he groomed frequently, get enough exercise and plenty of water. Massage can also help. best of luck to you, -L. |
Lyn wrote:
I would trash the Hills, put the cat on a hairball maintenence dry diet (which is higer in fiber and Mega 3 fatty acids) with pumpkin (if he will eat it) and also give plenty of canned food that is high in protein - such as Purina DM or a canned kitten diet. Protein is better utilized and lower-residue in nature. This is contradictory. A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that just passes through. Feeding this and a low residue diet would defeat the purpose of the low-residue food. Since this cat has already had a blockage once, I wouldn't recommend foods that are going to increase his stool size. Feeding a canned food means that the cat will digest and utilize more of the food and stool size will be smaller, which is certainly preferable if the cat is still constipated after the diet change. At least he'd be able to pass them and canned pumpkin could be added to the mix to help soften them, but my guess based on experience is that a grain free strictly canned food diet will take care of the problem. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
Lyn wrote:
I would trash the Hills, put the cat on a hairball maintenence dry diet (which is higer in fiber and Mega 3 fatty acids) with pumpkin (if he will eat it) and also give plenty of canned food that is high in protein - such as Purina DM or a canned kitten diet. Protein is better utilized and lower-residue in nature. This is contradictory. A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that just passes through. Feeding this and a low residue diet would defeat the purpose of the low-residue food. Since this cat has already had a blockage once, I wouldn't recommend foods that are going to increase his stool size. Feeding a canned food means that the cat will digest and utilize more of the food and stool size will be smaller, which is certainly preferable if the cat is still constipated after the diet change. At least he'd be able to pass them and canned pumpkin could be added to the mix to help soften them, but my guess based on experience is that a grain free strictly canned food diet will take care of the problem. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
|
|
|
|
Funaba et al. (2001) found that the
digestibility of corn gluten meal and fish meal were not significantly different. In 2002 the same group found that meat meal was significantly more digestible than corn gluten meal. However, the corn gluten meal certainly was not 'residue' and the cats could (and did) gain energy from it. If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal. Many contain any number of things such as ground corn, rice, soybean mill run and other such non-essentials that aren't going to be fully digested. The bottom line here is that if we feed cats food that is as close to what is *appropriate for the species* (corn, rice, etc. is not), instead of forcing them to consume foods that are completely contrary to what a *strict carnivore* should be eating, a lot of the problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD, UTI's, etc. would be few. Will you now be making justifications for why a cow should eat meat? Megan. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
Funaba et al. (2001) found that the
digestibility of corn gluten meal and fish meal were not significantly different. In 2002 the same group found that meat meal was significantly more digestible than corn gluten meal. However, the corn gluten meal certainly was not 'residue' and the cats could (and did) gain energy from it. If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal. Many contain any number of things such as ground corn, rice, soybean mill run and other such non-essentials that aren't going to be fully digested. The bottom line here is that if we feed cats food that is as close to what is *appropriate for the species* (corn, rice, etc. is not), instead of forcing them to consume foods that are completely contrary to what a *strict carnivore* should be eating, a lot of the problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD, UTI's, etc. would be few. Will you now be making justifications for why a cow should eat meat? Megan. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
|
|
Gaubster wrote:
Feline w/d and r/d from Hill's are formulated with a pH range of 6.2-6.4 which will help manage crystals. So, you are wrong on that count, Megan. No I'm not. I never said it was wrong to feed that. I said I "questioned it" which is entirely different. Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. First of all, I have a real big problem with a vet that proclaims a cat has to be on a special food/drugs for "the rest of its life" because of *one* incident of constipation. Have you seen the test results yourself? How can you diagnose over the internet? I didn't make diagnosis. Again you are too ignorant to comprehend basic language. I questioned the proclamation that the cat would have this condition for life based solely on *one* incident, which is completely valid. Just because you blindly follow whatever a vet or Hills tells you without doing any research or using common sense doesn't mean others should. snip the rest of Gaubsters typical attempt to start an argument over food Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
Gaubster wrote:
Feline w/d and r/d from Hill's are formulated with a pH range of 6.2-6.4 which will help manage crystals. So, you are wrong on that count, Megan. No I'm not. I never said it was wrong to feed that. I said I "questioned it" which is entirely different. Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. First of all, I have a real big problem with a vet that proclaims a cat has to be on a special food/drugs for "the rest of its life" because of *one* incident of constipation. Have you seen the test results yourself? How can you diagnose over the internet? I didn't make diagnosis. Again you are too ignorant to comprehend basic language. I questioned the proclamation that the cat would have this condition for life based solely on *one* incident, which is completely valid. Just because you blindly follow whatever a vet or Hills tells you without doing any research or using common sense doesn't mean others should. snip the rest of Gaubsters typical attempt to start an argument over food Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
|
|
Thanks to everyone who gave their input. It was good to get such a diverse
(and sometimes contradictory) range of views. Even the vets (and there were several of them from the same vet practice who examined Toby) couldn't all agree upon what the problem(s) might be, so I guess I shouldn't feel guilty about being all confused. Toby first got ill about 2 months ago - I noticed he had been going to the litter tray every few minutes - I carted him off to the vet immediately, where the first vet took a urine sample and tested it for crystals and/or bacteria. That first test came back positive for bacteria but negative for crystals. Toby was put on antibiotics, but no change of diet was recommended (he was being fed IAMS dried and Whiskas Advance wet). He had an anti-inflammation shot as well, and the frequent litter tray visits stopped - he got back to his normal routine of 2/3 times of weeing a day. A few weeks later, when Toby went to the clinic for a follow-up urine test after completing his course of antibiotics, a second vet discovered that Toby was badly constipated and had a distended colon. (Toby had always poo'd every other day - I simply accepted that as his normal routine, I never suspected he might be constipated. He never showed any signs of straining or pain when he poo'd before.) After Toby failed to poo for 4 days in a row (despite being treated with both lactulose and cisapride), a third and fourth vet (from the same clinic) recommended an enema under anaesthesia - this was duly administered after an x-ray was taken. The last two vets said the x-ray was inconclusive for a megacolon diagnosis, although Toby's colon was distended. Meanwhile, the second urine test came back - Toby had struvite crystals AND bacteria! Vet no. 2 decided that the bacteria could be lab contamination, so no additional antibiotics were prescribed. So the decision was made to put Toby on the Hill's dried w/d and wet r/d combination (both had higher fibre, are formulated to keep urine urine pH at 6.2 to 6.4, and the wet r/d would ensure Toby has sufficient fluid intake). Fast-forward to two weeks later - a third urine test this week showed Toby's urine is free from either bacteria or struvite crystals. Phew! However, vet no. 2 felt that it would be wise to continue with the Hill's diet as well as the lactulose and cisapride treatment for the foreseeable future as Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once every 1 to 1.5 days). Three different urine tests yielding 3 different results, on top of a possible idiopathic megacolon diagnosis - the vets don't have a clue why Toby's constipation developed nor why it progressed to the almost megacolon stage. It's all pretty much guess-work at this stage - keeping my fingers crossed that Toby's bowel movements will go back to normal eventually and he can be safely taken off the cisapride. (Cisapride is expensive and has been suspected of causing a few human deaths and withdrawn from the human market so it is not easy to get except thru vets, but lactulose is just a synthetic sugar and unlikely to cause any long term harm, plus it is much cheaper and easier to obtain.) It has been a very stressful couple of months for this daddy! Devlin Perth, Australia |
Thanks to everyone who gave their input. It was good to get such a diverse
(and sometimes contradictory) range of views. Even the vets (and there were several of them from the same vet practice who examined Toby) couldn't all agree upon what the problem(s) might be, so I guess I shouldn't feel guilty about being all confused. Toby first got ill about 2 months ago - I noticed he had been going to the litter tray every few minutes - I carted him off to the vet immediately, where the first vet took a urine sample and tested it for crystals and/or bacteria. That first test came back positive for bacteria but negative for crystals. Toby was put on antibiotics, but no change of diet was recommended (he was being fed IAMS dried and Whiskas Advance wet). He had an anti-inflammation shot as well, and the frequent litter tray visits stopped - he got back to his normal routine of 2/3 times of weeing a day. A few weeks later, when Toby went to the clinic for a follow-up urine test after completing his course of antibiotics, a second vet discovered that Toby was badly constipated and had a distended colon. (Toby had always poo'd every other day - I simply accepted that as his normal routine, I never suspected he might be constipated. He never showed any signs of straining or pain when he poo'd before.) After Toby failed to poo for 4 days in a row (despite being treated with both lactulose and cisapride), a third and fourth vet (from the same clinic) recommended an enema under anaesthesia - this was duly administered after an x-ray was taken. The last two vets said the x-ray was inconclusive for a megacolon diagnosis, although Toby's colon was distended. Meanwhile, the second urine test came back - Toby had struvite crystals AND bacteria! Vet no. 2 decided that the bacteria could be lab contamination, so no additional antibiotics were prescribed. So the decision was made to put Toby on the Hill's dried w/d and wet r/d combination (both had higher fibre, are formulated to keep urine urine pH at 6.2 to 6.4, and the wet r/d would ensure Toby has sufficient fluid intake). Fast-forward to two weeks later - a third urine test this week showed Toby's urine is free from either bacteria or struvite crystals. Phew! However, vet no. 2 felt that it would be wise to continue with the Hill's diet as well as the lactulose and cisapride treatment for the foreseeable future as Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once every 1 to 1.5 days). Three different urine tests yielding 3 different results, on top of a possible idiopathic megacolon diagnosis - the vets don't have a clue why Toby's constipation developed nor why it progressed to the almost megacolon stage. It's all pretty much guess-work at this stage - keeping my fingers crossed that Toby's bowel movements will go back to normal eventually and he can be safely taken off the cisapride. (Cisapride is expensive and has been suspected of causing a few human deaths and withdrawn from the human market so it is not easy to get except thru vets, but lactulose is just a synthetic sugar and unlikely to cause any long term harm, plus it is much cheaper and easier to obtain.) It has been a very stressful couple of months for this daddy! Devlin Perth, Australia |
From: "Devlin Tay"
Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once every 1 to 1.5 days). Three different urine tests yielding 3 different results, on top of a possible idiopathic megacolon diagnosis There's a great group you could join for cats with IBD and other bowel problems: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineIBD ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm |
From: "Devlin Tay"
Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once every 1 to 1.5 days). Three different urine tests yielding 3 different results, on top of a possible idiopathic megacolon diagnosis There's a great group you could join for cats with IBD and other bowel problems: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineIBD ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm |
|
|
|
|
Gaubster wrote:
From: Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to stop and think, now aren't you? I did no such thing and I challenge you to prove it. Let's see what the OP found out: ------------ snip Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) You conveniently failed to mention that what the OP wrote about what was done for his cat and why was posted two days after my post. I questioned why something was done and he gave me an answer, but here you are trying to make it look as though he posted that information before I responded. This is typical of your regular lies and misrepresentations. It doesn't change the fact that my suggestions for how to treat constipation and urinary tract issues *are* effective and on the mark. If a poster takes another approach it doesn't change the validity of what I say. ...and what research did you do on THIS particular case?? None, because you didn't examine the animal personally, nor did you have access to the cat's records. Pull your head out, Megan. I've done plenty of research on how to treat constipation, which is what this cat had, and have found an approach that works remarkably well without having to resort to the poor quality prescription foods that so many vets are brainwashed into recommending. This isn't some incredibly complicated medical issue and it hasn't been going on for very long. If the requirement is that we can't give suggestions or advice on health issues without personally examining the cat or being privy to its medical records this group would cease to exist. You only put this forth because you have this pathetic compulsion to be argumentative in spite of the obvious. The OP described the results of the cats examination and it's pretty basic stuff, although compehending basic information is and has for a long time been above and beyond your abilities. Again, you're putting words into people's mouths. Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or STFU. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
Gaubster wrote:
From: Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to stop and think, now aren't you? I did no such thing and I challenge you to prove it. Let's see what the OP found out: ------------ snip Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) You conveniently failed to mention that what the OP wrote about what was done for his cat and why was posted two days after my post. I questioned why something was done and he gave me an answer, but here you are trying to make it look as though he posted that information before I responded. This is typical of your regular lies and misrepresentations. It doesn't change the fact that my suggestions for how to treat constipation and urinary tract issues *are* effective and on the mark. If a poster takes another approach it doesn't change the validity of what I say. ...and what research did you do on THIS particular case?? None, because you didn't examine the animal personally, nor did you have access to the cat's records. Pull your head out, Megan. I've done plenty of research on how to treat constipation, which is what this cat had, and have found an approach that works remarkably well without having to resort to the poor quality prescription foods that so many vets are brainwashed into recommending. This isn't some incredibly complicated medical issue and it hasn't been going on for very long. If the requirement is that we can't give suggestions or advice on health issues without personally examining the cat or being privy to its medical records this group would cease to exist. You only put this forth because you have this pathetic compulsion to be argumentative in spite of the obvious. The OP described the results of the cats examination and it's pretty basic stuff, although compehending basic information is and has for a long time been above and beyond your abilities. Again, you're putting words into people's mouths. Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or STFU. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
Steve wrote:
If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal. I see. So, CGM doesn't count even thought it's extracted from corn? Did you go to the Gaubster school of reading comprehension? You're focusing on corn gluten meal when my point was that that is not the only ingredient, which you then said yourself: Not sure what your logic is on this one. And *all* cat foods contain more vegetable or vegetable-derived matter than just CGM. Jesus ****ing christ, don't waste my time going off on tangents that sidestep what I'm talking about then repeat what I said while implying that I didn't say it. snip studies Steve hasn't read Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read the abstract in each case. And unless you read them and know the entire content you have no business using them. You should know better. If cats could indeed digest carbs poorly or not at all, I think that we wouldn't have quite as many obese (indoor) cats as we do, given the popularity of dry foods. From a 2003 AVMA article available at http://www.catnutrition.org/Catkins.htm: "Obese cats are four times as likely to develop diabetes mellitus and five times as likely to develop lameness." Fat cats also have a higher incidence of non-allergic skin disease, most likely caused by the cat's inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate content. "Cats are unique in the way they handle protein, carbohydrates, and fat," Dr. Greco said. Cats are strict carnivores and, because of this, they have a tremendous ability to produce glucose from protein, but have difficulty processing carbohydrates. The feline liver has normal hexokinase activity, but no glucokinase activity. Thus, cats are limited in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat. In addition, unlike humans, protein is the stimulus for insulin release in cats. Cats have adapted to high protein diets by being insulin resistant. This maintains blood glucose during periods of fasting, convenient for a cat in the wild, but not so good for pets eating a lot of carbohydrates. "When you take an individual that is genetically programmed to consume high protein and low carbohydrates, and you put them on a high carbohydrate diet, what happens is their insulin resistance works against them," she said. "Their blood glucose concentrations are too high ... they can't overcome that, and they start to release more and more insulin in an attempt to reduce blood glucose levels." This doesn't work, however, and the cat eventually develops type 2 diabetes mellitus. The cat gets amyloid deposition in the pancreas, exhaustion of the pancreatic cells, and glucose toxicity from consumption of large amounts of carbohydrates. So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food, high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a "CatKins" diet, much like the Atkins diet popular today. This diet is going to keep a cat slim and help it avoid diabetes. She recommends a wet cat food because if you are trying to mimic what a cat eats in the wild, just think of how much water a mouse contains. Wet cat food is going to give you a pH that is ideal and is, thus, the best way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said. In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby causing dental problems. According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." Not sure that cats eat sweet potatoes in their natural environment (Wellness) either, or perhaps they have hidden digging talents. And peas (Natural Life)! Yes, I always have to shoo the cats away from the pea-patch, always swiping the pods, the buggers. How about dried kelp (Newman's Own), doubtless caught be those wily aquacats. Or guar gum (basically everything). Brown rice, cranberry meal (Felidae). Repeat to fade. Not sure that a cat could bring down a cow or sheep either, but who's to say what ambitious felines are out there... Cats do consume a small amount of vegetable/grain matter that is found in the stomach of their prey. Canned cat foods are mostly meat with a small amount of vegetable/grain matter as well. I don't know if you're just trying to be annoying wit your tangents or what, but the reality is that if we don't feed a diet of mice then the best we can do is mimic the content of that type of diet to the best of our ability. If we can't make it ourselves then we have to rely on the pet food companies and the choices of ingredients they make, and choose the best of what is available. Often they will choose ingredients based on the benefits they offer rather than because they are eaten by a mouse. And BTW, I have a rat (which cats will also consume) and he eats peas, rice, sweet potatoes, raspberries and probably would eat kelp or cranberries if I gave it to him. , a lot of the problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD, UTI's, etc. would be few. Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up. Not yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a probability. Again, much of this is a common sense issue. There have already been studies that have shown dry food can cause or exacerbate urinary tract infections, and I posted an article above that talks about how a high carbohydrate diet can cause diabetes. And pay attention to the last line of that article because it is clear and to the point, and what I said above and have been saying all along: *According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." * Now, I do actually agree with you that feeding a species appropriate diet is an appropriate [sic] thing to do, Yet you have spent much of your post trying to justify the digestibility of foods that are not fit for a carnivore. You question pet food companies' use of things like sweet potatoes yet sing the praises of the digestibility of polenta and corn gluten meal and don't spend one minute questioning their use. I really don't have time for this and if you want to argue for the sake of arguing Gaubster is your man. but if you try to justify this by assigning all manner of ills to carbs - well, there just ain't the evidence AFAICT. Do you have any cites? I did not say "carbs" anywhere in the post you responded to and I challenge you to show me where I used that term in my post. I said grains, which is broader and went to my point of residue. You keep on focusing on digesting and I have responded to that aspect, but I also specifically said previously that they don't "utilize" them well, which is verifed in the excerpt of the AVMA article above. You do understand that digestion is the process of conversion, while utilization is the process of using that which has been converted, do you not? Will you now be making justifications for why a cow should eat meat? For better or worse, many animals raised for human consumption are indeed forced to eat a species inappropriate diet. And this is a justification? An answer? This was a stupid response on your part and I expect better of you. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
Steve wrote:
If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal. I see. So, CGM doesn't count even thought it's extracted from corn? Did you go to the Gaubster school of reading comprehension? You're focusing on corn gluten meal when my point was that that is not the only ingredient, which you then said yourself: Not sure what your logic is on this one. And *all* cat foods contain more vegetable or vegetable-derived matter than just CGM. Jesus ****ing christ, don't waste my time going off on tangents that sidestep what I'm talking about then repeat what I said while implying that I didn't say it. snip studies Steve hasn't read Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read the abstract in each case. And unless you read them and know the entire content you have no business using them. You should know better. If cats could indeed digest carbs poorly or not at all, I think that we wouldn't have quite as many obese (indoor) cats as we do, given the popularity of dry foods. From a 2003 AVMA article available at http://www.catnutrition.org/Catkins.htm: "Obese cats are four times as likely to develop diabetes mellitus and five times as likely to develop lameness." Fat cats also have a higher incidence of non-allergic skin disease, most likely caused by the cat's inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate content. "Cats are unique in the way they handle protein, carbohydrates, and fat," Dr. Greco said. Cats are strict carnivores and, because of this, they have a tremendous ability to produce glucose from protein, but have difficulty processing carbohydrates. The feline liver has normal hexokinase activity, but no glucokinase activity. Thus, cats are limited in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat. In addition, unlike humans, protein is the stimulus for insulin release in cats. Cats have adapted to high protein diets by being insulin resistant. This maintains blood glucose during periods of fasting, convenient for a cat in the wild, but not so good for pets eating a lot of carbohydrates. "When you take an individual that is genetically programmed to consume high protein and low carbohydrates, and you put them on a high carbohydrate diet, what happens is their insulin resistance works against them," she said. "Their blood glucose concentrations are too high ... they can't overcome that, and they start to release more and more insulin in an attempt to reduce blood glucose levels." This doesn't work, however, and the cat eventually develops type 2 diabetes mellitus. The cat gets amyloid deposition in the pancreas, exhaustion of the pancreatic cells, and glucose toxicity from consumption of large amounts of carbohydrates. So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food, high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a "CatKins" diet, much like the Atkins diet popular today. This diet is going to keep a cat slim and help it avoid diabetes. She recommends a wet cat food because if you are trying to mimic what a cat eats in the wild, just think of how much water a mouse contains. Wet cat food is going to give you a pH that is ideal and is, thus, the best way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said. In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby causing dental problems. According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." Not sure that cats eat sweet potatoes in their natural environment (Wellness) either, or perhaps they have hidden digging talents. And peas (Natural Life)! Yes, I always have to shoo the cats away from the pea-patch, always swiping the pods, the buggers. How about dried kelp (Newman's Own), doubtless caught be those wily aquacats. Or guar gum (basically everything). Brown rice, cranberry meal (Felidae). Repeat to fade. Not sure that a cat could bring down a cow or sheep either, but who's to say what ambitious felines are out there... Cats do consume a small amount of vegetable/grain matter that is found in the stomach of their prey. Canned cat foods are mostly meat with a small amount of vegetable/grain matter as well. I don't know if you're just trying to be annoying wit your tangents or what, but the reality is that if we don't feed a diet of mice then the best we can do is mimic the content of that type of diet to the best of our ability. If we can't make it ourselves then we have to rely on the pet food companies and the choices of ingredients they make, and choose the best of what is available. Often they will choose ingredients based on the benefits they offer rather than because they are eaten by a mouse. And BTW, I have a rat (which cats will also consume) and he eats peas, rice, sweet potatoes, raspberries and probably would eat kelp or cranberries if I gave it to him. , a lot of the problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD, UTI's, etc. would be few. Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up. Not yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a probability. Again, much of this is a common sense issue. There have already been studies that have shown dry food can cause or exacerbate urinary tract infections, and I posted an article above that talks about how a high carbohydrate diet can cause diabetes. And pay attention to the last line of that article because it is clear and to the point, and what I said above and have been saying all along: *According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." * Now, I do actually agree with you that feeding a species appropriate diet is an appropriate [sic] thing to do, Yet you have spent much of your post trying to justify the digestibility of foods that are not fit for a carnivore. You question pet food companies' use of things like sweet potatoes yet sing the praises of the digestibility of polenta and corn gluten meal and don't spend one minute questioning their use. I really don't have time for this and if you want to argue for the sake of arguing Gaubster is your man. but if you try to justify this by assigning all manner of ills to carbs - well, there just ain't the evidence AFAICT. Do you have any cites? I did not say "carbs" anywhere in the post you responded to and I challenge you to show me where I used that term in my post. I said grains, which is broader and went to my point of residue. You keep on focusing on digesting and I have responded to that aspect, but I also specifically said previously that they don't "utilize" them well, which is verifed in the excerpt of the AVMA article above. You do understand that digestion is the process of conversion, while utilization is the process of using that which has been converted, do you not? Will you now be making justifications for why a cow should eat meat? For better or worse, many animals raised for human consumption are indeed forced to eat a species inappropriate diet. And this is a justification? An answer? This was a stupid response on your part and I expect better of you. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
|
|
|
|
Gaubster wrote: From: Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to stop and think, now aren't you? I did no such thing and I challenge you to prove it. Well, you keep doing it--read on........ Let's see what the OP found out: ------------ Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) You conveniently failed to mention that what the OP wrote about what was done for his cat and why was posted two days after my post. I never made any parallels about time frames (and neither did you for that matter in your original post). I SAID: Let's see what the OP found out: Notice the part where I stated, "FOUND OUT". Again, you are trying to twist things around because your arrogance doesn't allow you to admit when you are wrong. No, not at all. You implied, it's obvious and trying to backpedal doesn't change reality. Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) What part of my above statement is "deceptive"?? It certainly does sound as if the problem has been resolved with "the help" of Hill's diets. Again, you should look in the mirror before you start letting the venom flow through your fingertips. You implied I should have already known what was done for the cat by following it with the statement that my advice was off the mark. You also implied that because the Hill's diet worked, my advice was wrong. It was not. You know exactly what you did, it was deceptive, and this is typical of you. I've done plenty of research on how to treat constipation, which is what this cat had, and have found an approach that works remarkably well without having to resort to the poor quality prescription foods that so many vets are brainwashed into recommending. Right here is where you trip yourself up. Not at all. I have made similar statements in the past and am consistent. The diets his cat were prescribed were Hill's diets and worked. You don't like Hill's and attempt to convince other people to listen to you. No, you're wrong. I care about the health of cats and think it's better to treat issues with a proper species appropriate diet rather than depend on low quality prescription foods. It doesn't matter who makes it. This particular case is just one example that you are way off the mark (again). No, you're wrong, because I've seen cats completely cured from having constipation simply by changing their food to a high quality canned diet. There are also hundreds of others on the IBD list alone that have resolved constipation, diarrhea and IBD issues not by feeding prescription diets, but by feeding foods that are as close to what a cat would eat naturally as they can reasonably get. There are certainly countless others that have been successful using a proper diet instead of prescription foods as well. This is not rocket science and this approach is not by any means off the mark. It's an approach that is, in the article I posted, recommended by a veterinary internal medicine specialist and published by the AVMA, but I'm sure that since she doesn't work for or recommend Hill's you'll claim she's wrong too. Theraputic diets (especially Hill's) have been successfully treating millions of pets for almost 60 years. And I have successfully treated many health issues without having to use prescription diets, even though they were recommended. So have countless others. Why you have a problem with that is beyond me. Because their food is low quality crap, full of grains and often undefined meat sources, with a high price tag. The fact that you have a problem with successfully treating constipation issues by feeding a high quality canned food rather than a prescription diet is just more proof that you are a shill for Hills. Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or STFU. I gave you one example. No, you didn't. You didn't post one quote that proved I "put words in your mouth." In fact, in the glaringly erroneous example you used I clearly stated that you "failed to mention." That means that you *didn't* say something and can in no way, shape or form be called "putting words in your mouth." Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:37 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CatBanter.com