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John Doe



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 26th 17, 01:14 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
[email protected][_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default John Doe

Hmmmm… I have come to doubt this individual’s understanding of what a “Feral” cat actually is. There are, typically four types of cats seen in outdoor settings, broad brush:
a) Housecats that are allowed outdoors – common enough. In some areas, outdoor access is a requirement to keeping a cat, really. Is it always a good idea? Not hardly!
b) Stray cats – these are cats that once had a home, but for any number of reasons no longer do so.
c) “Alley” Cats – these are cats that never had a home, but live peripheral to people and depend on people to survive. They may do so by scrounging, hunting, or by being fed. An excellent example of much appreciated Alley Cats would be the street cats of Istanbul. My wife and I spent some time in Istanbul, and were promptly adopted by a clowder of about 4 cats that decided we were 'good people'. No food involved or required. We did put out water, however.

https://vimeo.com/87816089


All of the above come in various degrees of shyness, defensiveness and distrust, but the bottom line is that they are as dependent on people as any given housecat for the most part. Stray and Alley cats tend to live relatively short lives, are subject to many diseases and other problems, but their survival rate would be much lower without people. And, all of the above will, eventually, adapt to living closely with people (in a ‘home’), over time. Some, even (at least the three I have taken on) will even become aggressively affectionate.


d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a ‘people’ home, probably for generations if ever. They do not depend on people. They do not eat ‘people’ or ‘people-source’ food, even if offered. They do not eat carrion unless they killed it themselves. They want about as much to do with people as does the typical Lynx, Mountain Lion or similar. Feral cats live an average of over ten (10) years, mostly based on heavy attrition during the first six months of life. Once about a year old, they tend to make an average of about fifteen years. They have the same general attitude to being captured and ‘tamed’ as would that Lynx or Mountain Lion. Not to suggest that they cannot adapt, but the attitude is feral.
These guys might take years, if at all, to be gentle enough to handle. And given a chance, they may simply abscond. As would that Lynx or Mountain Lion.

So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as “feral”. It is not a simple descriptive, but a very specific term.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
  #2  
Old July 26th 17, 01:33 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Mark Carroll[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default John Doe

On 26 Jul 2017, wrote:

d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a ‘people’ home,
probably for generations if ever.


So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as “feral”. It is
not a simple descriptive, but a very specific term.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/feral

] 1. A domesticated animal that has returned to the wild; an animal,
] particularly a domesticated animal, living independently of humans.

Indeed, the Oxford English Dictionary confirms even, "Now often applied
to animals or plants that have lapsed into a wild from a domesticated
condition."

So, be exceedingly careful when assuming that your definition is the
only appropriate or acceptable one. Also note that those of us reading
are quite able to form our own opinions of John Doe without your telling
us what to think.

-- Mark
  #3  
Old July 26th 17, 01:54 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
[email protected][_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default John Doe

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feral

First and Second a) definition have nothing to do with formerly domesticated.

Common usage is often apart from base meaning, put another way, a term abused becomes muddled at the cost of accuracy.

"Feral" is a specific term that has lost some of its edge due to misuse.

So, let's just stick with "like a Lynx or Mountain Lion" as context rather than trying to force the exception.

Keep in mind that there are very nearly 300,000 distinct words in the English Language, including obsolete words. Compounds and derivatives bring this to very nearly 1,000,000.

The average American uses about 5,000. Any wonder why so many of those few that are used are abused?

As to "Opinion":

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

― Harlan Ellison


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
  #4  
Old July 26th 17, 02:22 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav,free.spam
John Doe[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default John Doe

What a coincidence. Merriam-Webster was the first dictionary
publisher to accept my definition of the word "save" as
advertising uses it every day all day.

BUY NOW AND SAVE!!!
SAVE $20
SAVE MONEY

I got a confirmation letter from Oxford University Press and
they ended up publishing it 10 years later. Every other major
dictionary has published my definition of "save".

Anytime the original poster wants to lecture me on semantics,
it should think about that. All day every day. Language is
for communication, that is all. If the OP has trouble
understanding someone it can ask for clarification.

Really, the OP needs to get out more. On the open Internet in
busy discussion with people from all different countries, one
cannot be picky.

Thanks to the other reply author.

--
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feral

First and Second a) definition have nothing to do with formerly domesticated.

Common usage is often apart from base meaning, put another way, a term abused becomes muddled at the cost of accuracy.

"Feral" is a specific term that has lost some of its edge due to misuse.

So, let's just stick with "like a Lynx or Mountain Lion" as context rather than trying to force the exception.

Keep in mind that there are very nearly 300,000 distinct words in the English Language, including obsolete words. Compounds and derivatives bring this to very nearly 1,000,000.

The average American uses about 5,000. Any wonder why so many of those few that are used are abused?

As to "Opinion":

oYou are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

 Harlan Ellison


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA



  #5  
Old July 30th 17, 01:00 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cshenk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,908
Default John Doe

Mark Carroll wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

On 26 Jul 2017, wrote:

d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a
‘people’ home, probably for generations if ever.


So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as
“feral”. It is not a simple descriptive, but a very specific
term.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/feral

] 1. A domesticated animal that has returned to the wild; an animal,
] particularly a domesticated animal, living independently of humans.

Indeed, the Oxford English Dictionary confirms even, "Now often
applied to animals or plants that have lapsed into a wild from a
domesticated condition."

So, be exceedingly careful when assuming that your definition is the
only appropriate or acceptable one. Also note that those of us reading
are quite able to form our own opinions of John Doe without your
telling us what to think.

-- Mark


Correct Mark, though I don't have John Doe's message here.

I joined a cat rescue message group some years back thinking I might be
able to help with harder case semi-ferals and ferals. I'd been doing
cat rescue fostering for 35 years by then.

Semi-feral is a rescue term here used for 'had human interaction likely
but has been living wild an estimated 4 years or more'. Many colony
cats and barn cats fit loosely in that area. Peter is trying to define
those as strays or alley cats. No skin off my nose if he wants to do
so, but he will mismatch with common use of rescue organizations and
the general public if so. When put up for adoption, tend to be called
'Alley Cat' and seen plenty called 'Diamond in the rough' if they were
minimally impacted and adapted/re-adapted well to people.

They aren't allowed to list them as feral here for adoption (I do not
know why, possibly impressions like Peter has?).

I can tell you the story of Daisy-chan if interested. It shows the
difference that Peter doesnt grasp.



--

  #6  
Old July 31st 17, 01:56 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Peter W.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default John Doe

Mark, Mr. Schenk:

Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.

Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither semi (anything) nor feral (anything).

Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered, please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level, however removed. Full stop.

Please answer.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
  #7  
Old July 31st 17, 01:15 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav,free.spam
John Doe[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default John Doe

Netcop-wannabe troll from Google Groups...

--
"Peter W." pfjw aol.com wrote:

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Mark, Mr. Schenk:

Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.

Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither semi (anything) nor feral (anything).

Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered, please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level, however removed. Full stop.

Please answer.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


  #8  
Old August 1st 17, 02:01 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cshenk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,908
Default John Doe

Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

Mark, Mr. Schenk:

Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of
words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.

Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither
semi (anything) nor feral (anything).

Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine
European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle
it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered,
please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They
are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful
thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless
cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level,
however removed. Full stop.

Please answer.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Peter, lets start that you can't even spell my nickname, nor did you
have any reason to assume my sex (got it wrong BTW). You also changed
breeds off the domestic line.

Unless you have OCD issues, the world is not 'black or white, with no
shades of grey'. If you do really think the world is a yes or no place
with no shades of color, then I am sorry that you feel that way but
will endtrans the conversation as not worth my time.

Lets try it another way. How many years and in what capacity do you
have with cat rescue?

I have 37 years at it, working my ways up to to harder cases. It takes
time, patience, knowledge, and willing to accept what will not change.

--

  #9  
Old August 1st 17, 11:38 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Peter W.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default John Doe

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 9:01:28 PM UTC-4, cshenk wrote:
Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

Mark, Mr. Schenk:

Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of
words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.

Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither
semi (anything) nor feral (anything).

Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine
European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle
it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered,
please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They
are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful
thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless
cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level,
however removed. Full stop.

Please answer.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Peter, lets start that you can't even spell my nickname, nor did you
have any reason to assume my sex (got it wrong BTW). You also changed
breeds off the domestic line.

Unless you have OCD issues, the world is not 'black or white, with no
shades of grey'. If you do really think the world is a yes or no place
with no shades of color, then I am sorry that you feel that way but
will endtrans the conversation as not worth my time.

Lets try it another way. How many years and in what capacity do you
have with cat rescue?

I have 37 years at it, working my ways up to to harder cases. It takes
time, patience, knowledge, and willing to accept what will not change.

--


I have been rescuing - and not from shelters - cats at one level or another for very nearly 50 years now, and on two continents. None of the present incumbents are rescues at this time, but the most recent was about six years ago and placed with one of the kids. We keep only two cats at a time, usually very long times.

I do notice your evasion of the direct question: What would *YOU* do were you by accident or design in control of a European Wild Cat?

In my case, it was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_wildcat that my wife and I found injured and barely conscious on the highway between Riyadh and Khobar - not by a vehicle, but probably by some other predator. After having it vetted, cleaned, and a few stitches (all the while tranquilized) it became clear that this one was no domestic cat (the Bedouin are very fond of cats for many good reasons - so seeing cats away from civilization is not uncommon). The vet kept it for two days to make sure that there were no complications - it drank but did not eat - and then I returned it to where we found it. It did not look back.

So, your answer?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
  #10  
Old July 30th 17, 12:16 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cshenk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,908
Default John Doe

wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

Hmmmm… I have come to doubt this individual’s understanding of
what a “Feral” cat actually is. There are, typically four types
of cats seen in outdoor settings, broad brush: a) Housecats that
are allowed outdoors – common enough. In some areas, outdoor access
is a requirement to keeping a cat, really. Is it always a good idea?
Not hardly! b) Stray cats – these are cats that once had a
home, but for any number of reasons no longer do so. c)
“Alley” Cats – these are cats that never had a home, but live
peripheral to people and depend on people to survive. They may do so
by scrounging, hunting, or by being fed. An excellent example of much
appreciated Alley Cats would be the street cats of Istanbul. My wife
and I spent some time in Istanbul, and were promptly adopted by a
clowder of about 4 cats that decided we were 'good people'. No food
involved or required. We did put out water, however.

https://vimeo.com/87816089


All of the above come in various degrees of shyness, defensiveness
and distrust, but the bottom line is that they are as dependent on
people as any given housecat for the most part. Stray and Alley cats
tend to live relatively short lives, are subject to many diseases and
other problems, but their survival rate would be much lower without
people. And, all of the above will, eventually, adapt to living
closely with people (in a ‘home’), over time. Some, even (at
least the three I have taken on) will even become aggressively
affectionate.


d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a
‘people’ home, probably for generations if ever. They do not
depend on people. They do not eat ‘people’ or ‘people-source’
food, even if offered. They do not eat carrion unless they killed it
themselves. They want about as much to do with people as does the
typical Lynx, Mountain Lion or similar. Feral cats live an average of
over ten (10) years, mostly based on heavy attrition during the first
six months of life. Once about a year old, they tend to make an
average of about fifteen years. They have the same general attitude
to being captured and ‘tamed’ as would that Lynx or Mountain
Lion. Not to suggest that they cannot adapt, but the attitude is
feral. These guys might take years, if at all, to be gentle enough
to handle. And given a chance, they may simply abscond. As would that
Lynx or Mountain Lion.

So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as
“feral”. It is not a simple descriptive, but a very specific term.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Peter, I assume 'John Doe' is someone in my killfile for spamming or
something. He must have said something to spark this.

Either way, English is not a precise language, no matter how much you
may wish it. While the word 'Feral' is often mis-attributed, it's not
the black and white you make it out to be in real use.

I've seen people try to be so specific so as to rule out anyone ever
owning/taming a feral as by their definition, it is part of their rules
to be a feral that it can't be done. In fact though, those who claim
that just do not have the experience to do it and also tend to think
'all ferals are alike' (they aren't, they are as different as home
raised are where one is a lap kitty and the other is aloof).

--

 




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