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#31
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Ashley wrote:
He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times. This is the part where you lost me. I thought you were reporting back about risks in NZ. Who cares what he thinks about our way of doing it. Isn't your point that we do things differently than you guys and for good reason on both ends? I was starting to understand your position better and to a degree still do, but clearly, as you have even agreed...there *is* more of a risk here in the US...therefore people choosing to keep cats indoors at all times makes sense. Pam |
#32
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On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:01:01 +1200, "Ashley"
wrote: anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between; Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in the neighborhood. Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free. Apparently, if it happens 5 times, you go to court. The first two times in court, she was given a suspended sentence. But she refused to keep her dog on a leash, so the judge put her in jail for 3 days. Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is. -- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com |
#33
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On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:01:55 GMT, "Mathew Kagis"
wrote: Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'. The population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered 'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA. Well, apparently, it is a social bubble as well. No cars, no humans who make mistakes. And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small* town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away. Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway. If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily. -- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com |
#34
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"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message ... On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:01:55 GMT, "Mathew Kagis" wrote: Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'. The population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered 'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA. Well, apparently, it is a social bubble as well. No cars, no humans who make mistakes. And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small* town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away. Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway. If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily. And I am really frustrated that my concern for these animals that really do not understand what they are up against with regard to cars, poison, etc. must be twisted by Kagis and others. In my opinion, people who do not take care of their cats are cruel, vicious, and heinous. That will never change. |
#35
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"Ashley" wrote in message ... OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. What type of vet is he, a backwoods, large animal farm vet!? LOL! His response: Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never seen a case. That's never. "Never"? Are you his only client or does he have another? How can he be so sure he's never seen a case... if he's never seen a case!? Has he ever seen a case of acute renal failure? If so, how did he know with absolute certainty that the ARF wasn't caused by EG toxicity, huh? Even modern, mainstream vets cannot make a definite diagnosis without a complete diagnostic work up and specialized EGT tests. (That's if he's even heard of a EGT test kit) Even *with* a highly specialized EGT test kit, EG usually can't be detected in the serum or urine after 72 hr. Thus his "never" has little, if any credibility and should be taken with a large grain of salt. He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times. Oh, keeping cats indoors isn't just an "American method"... Peter Neville, *British* world renowned feline behaviorist: "The human/cat relationship is based on many, often contrasting factors. Indoors the cat is valued for its cleanliness, affection and playfulness, and admired for its highly evolved play behaviour. Although not a group hunter, the cat retains an enormous capacity to be sociable and accepts the benefits of living in the human family and den without compromising its self-determining and independent behaviour. Bristol University, Department of Veterinary Medicine, Langford House, Langford, Avon BS18 7DU, UK (Excerpted from: Handbook of Feline Medicine, Willis J, Wolf A; Pergamon Press, Oxford OX3 OBW, England) BSAVA; and Manual of Feline Behaviour, British Small Animal Veterinary Association, Kingsley House. Church Lane. Shurdington, Cheltenham. Gloucestershire GL51 5TQ Dr. Nicholas Dodman, *British*, and the Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, states "Its a lot safer to keep cats indoors. The average lifespan of an indoor cat is around twelve to fourteen years, while outdoor cats are lucky to reach double digits. I personally have lost three cats prematurely to trauma over the past fifteen years. Two were struck by vehicles on a fairly quiet road, and the other was killed by a roaming neighborhood dog. Because of experiences like this I have certainly had cause to think long and hard about letting future cats out. At present, our cats remain indoors where they're safest" (Excerpted from the Cat Who Cried for Help). "The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are compelling reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors. It is especially important to keep declawed cats indoors, as they are poorly equipped to defend themselves or escape danger by climbing trees. Indoor cats are unquestionably safer and healthier than outdoor cats, and they make better household pets. They don't endanger birds and other wildlife or bring home fleas or dead animals, nor do they need frequent visits to the veterinarian to treat injuries sustained in scraps with rival cats. Screened-in porches or specially constructed window enclosures allow indoor-only cats to sniff the fresh air, peruse the goings-on outside, and bask in the sun. By regularly changing the indoor environment, you can help keep your cat challenged-; strategically situated empty cardboard boxes or plain brown shopping bags (minus the handles) can provide an old space with new interest." Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health Center: "Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and would have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live longer. While living happily inside, cats are not getting hit by cars, being injured in cat fights, catching infections such as feline leukemia virus and feline immunodeficiency virus (Feline "AIDS"), being stolen, hunting and possibly killing wildlife, urinating and defecating on neighbors' properties, and harassing or being harassed by other animals. Clearly there are many good reasons for permanently keeping cats indoors." Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, Animal Behaviour Clinic, Malvern Vie 3 144, *Australia*. Excerpted from Cat Behavior and Training. "Many cats born as strays and adopted as housecats adjust remarkably quickly. Indeed, many stray cats that are adopted remain indoors permanently without protest. Cats that live in temperate climates may naturally restrict their outdoor activity during cold winter months. These individuals may adapt more readily to being kept indoors permanently. Provide a wide variety of toys that are attractive to your cat (not just to you). Frequently play with your young cat so that it is less prone to seek amusement elsewhere. It is particularly important to provide your cat with additional outlets by playing with it and engaging in interactive diversions you both will enjoy. Have your cat neutered at an appropriate age as recommended by your veterinarian. Although territorial roaming provides cats with exercise and mental stimulation, cats can live a happy life while remaining indoors. The risk of injury (from motor vehicle accidents, cat fights, or confrontations with other animals), disease, and abuse far outweigh any possible benefit to your cat. It is not cruel to restrict cats to an exclusively indoor existence. Rather, the cruelty lies in exposing them to the dangers outside of a safe home." Dr. Stefanie Schwartz, DVM, MSc,DACVB, Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists Director of Behavior Services, VCA South Shore Animal Hospital, So. Weymouth, MA Clin. Asst. Prof., Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine. Your vet is behind the times - but not by much - only about 40 or 50 years. Here's some addition reading if you want to learn something -- which I doubt: http://www.maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm http://www.maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm |
#36
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"Mathew Kagis" wrote in message newscn4e.110900$KI2.70697@clgrps12... Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of Islands... Kinda like the "Never Never Land" where you never have to grow up, eh? Are all the roads are made of yellow bricks, too? Maybe that's why cats don't hit by cars - they're very easy to see against the yellow brick background! LOL! Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'. That certainly sounds like an accurate statement! Ashley was imported and she's also a large mammal and she's certainly noxious. The population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered 'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA. .....yeah, back in the '50s. |
#37
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"CatNipped" wrote in message ... Well, congratulations Ashley. You win. You win the right to remain ignorant, Everyone has that right. I choose not to be. Have you bothered reading any of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other threads? If not, I can only assume that ignorance is your choice. you win the right to put your cats at risk. No. I choose proportionate reactions to risk, not disproportionate risk-aversion. Were my cats at risk from roaming coyotes, poisonous snakes and widespread antifreeze use, I would react appropriately to those risks. As those risks are not present, I don't react to them. And I don't over-react to the risks that are present. I choose ways to minimise the danger of being involved in a car accident, but not totally remove it because I believe that eliminates too much experience and enjoyment from their lives. Life is a trade-off of risk and pleasure. If you try to eliminate all the risk (which you never can do) you eliminate most of the pleasure as well. We all draw our line in the sand somewhere. You draw yours too far down the pleasure-elimination track for my choosing. I'll only beat my head against a brick wall until it hurts. You, obviously, are willing to be bloodied. So, go ahead, bang away, I'm outta here - I have to go apologize profusely to my cats for making their lives so miserable. And again, stop twisting my words. I am sure your cats are not miserable - if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control, I would not choose that life for my cats. |
#38
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"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message ... On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:01:01 +1200, "Ashley" wrote: anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between; Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by dogs, No, but they minimise things. To stop that entirely, you'd have to ban dogs! And, as you've been following my posts, you'll be aware that I most definitely do not claim there is *no* danger from dogs. I am, however, saying there is not *widespread* danger from dogs. Risk/reward tradeoff. or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in the neighborhood. Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free. Apparently, if it happens 5 times, you go to court. The first two times in court, she was given a suspended sentence. But she refused to keep her dog on a leash, so the judge put her in jail for 3 days. Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is. Some people are just dumb ;-) |
#39
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"Ashley" wrote in message ... "CatNipped" wrote in message ... Now you're backtracking? Nope. You said in other posts that there *are* risks in NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of you). Because those risks are minimal. Because your concern for cats' welfare is minimal, not to mention your mind! |
#40
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"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message nk.net... In article , "Ashley" wrote: Maybe you could email them and ask for references. I think that if they're going to make such flat, bold assertions, they should cite their studies without being asked. Otherwise, frankly, it's a Web site, which anyone can have. But you'll find this on that particular website: The Feline Advisory Bureau's commitment to the improvement of the care of cats extends to the funding of several post-graduate posts in university veterinary schools. By funding veterinary surgeons to specialise in the care of cats, FAB continues to create the scientific backbone for many of the advances in the treatment of cats. FAB's Lecturer at Bristol University's Feline Centre at Langford is Dr Sarah Caney. A previous FAB Resident at Bristol for two years, Sarah graduated from Bristol University in 1993. After a short period in small animal practice, she moved to the Royal Veterinary College in London where she spent a year as an intern in small animal medicine and surgery. Sarah strengthened her interest in and knowledge of cats by gaining an RCVS certificate in small animal medicine and subsequently studying for a PhD in feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) infection. When Andrea Harvey became a FAB Resident in January 2002 it was like coming home. She graduated from the University of Bristol in 2000 and returned to its Langford Feline Centre as the FAB resident. Following graduation, Andrea worked as a small animal locum in Wiltshire before taking up a post in a predominantly small animal practice in Sheffield. Her specific interest in cats developed over this time. Michiel Kraijer graduated from the University of Utrecht (Netherlands) in 2000. He worked for a year in small animal practice in the Netherlands, before becoming FAB Resident at the Feline Clinic of the Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies in Edinburgh. His interest in feline medicine developed when he was a student and was stimulated while seeing practice in three feline-only small animal hospitals in the United States. In 1998 Michiel set up a foundation with the aim of increasing interest in feline medicine among Dutch vets. The foundation still organises yearly symposia about advances in feline medicine Anyone would think vets with specialist knowledge of cats contributed to it .... or something |
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