Behavioural problems...

On Feb 3, 8:12*pm, missToni wrote:
Hi Peter
Thanks for the comprehensive replies! *The cat eats one can of wet
food a day, with dry food available for free feeding. *He's not got a
weight problem. *One thing he does not do is drink water, so I don't
want to take him off the wet. *I age my water 24 hours then filter it
through a Brita filter, and serve it up fresh in a ceramic bowl. Short
of getting one of those continuous recirculating fountains, I don't
know how to get him to drink. His poo doesn't smell in the box,
because he covers it. *It just smelled really gross when I had to
gather it off my duvet, still warm. *He's really fastidious about his
box, and I scoop it twice daily and keep it topped up with fresh
litter frequently. *As my friend neglected to tell me, he has done
that in the past when annoyed at not being able to go outside, so I
think it's an emotional thing, rather than not liking his box. *It
only happened the once, so far, and fingers crossed it won't again.
Cheers
Toni

Talk about tempting fate. He did it again tonight. This time just a
little poo, but on the bed again. And we've had such a good day, lots
of play, patting, positive attention. I let him out once, for 5
minutes, then offered later to let him out again and he didn't want to
go. I'm trying to be patient. How long should I give him to settle
down?

[snipped]

With all due respect, Peter, you come across as an educated man, but
when it comes to cat nutrition/issues, you seem woefully ignorant. I
don't mean this as an insult, but only as an observation. What you're
failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
Period. This is not negotiable. It's how they've evolved and what they
are, and if you put the wrong fuel in the engine long enough, it's
going to break down. Ten years ago what you state may have been
roundly accepted, but knowledge of feline nutrition and their unique
needs has advanced by leaps and bounds, and more and more vets are
starting to put physiologic needs and design over what the pet food
companies want them (and you) to believe. They don't call it
"corporate interests" for nothing...

To address your points-

Gum and dental health: It's been known for some time that the myth
that dry food is good for dental health is just that: a myth. Cats'
teeth are designed for cutting and tearing and do not have enough
contact time for dry food to have any direct benefit. Offering the cat
braised chicken gizzards or raw chicken wings (provided they are from
a good source and not commercially raised) are better options. Both
require extended contact time with the teeth (gnawing) and are far
superior in contributing to dental health, although brushing is ideal.
See this article (written by a veterinarian) that explains the dry
food myth in detail : http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph... cleantheteeth

Roughage: Cats are carnivores and don't have a proven need for fiber.
Any fiber they do get would be from the stomach contents of their
prey, which is a small part of their diet. If you're truly concerned
about this, you can grow your own cat grass at home and offer that.
Feeding a raw diet containing ground bone is another option. When I
became educated about what appropriate nutrition for an obligate
carnivore is and switched from high fiber dry to grain free, canned
and raw foods, the hairballs I used to clean up all the time
diminished from common to rare.

Digestive health: Putting grains in the digestive tract of a carnivore
is a recipe for disaster. See Laura M.'s experiences with Hobbes on
this newsgroup. Cats are not properly able to utilize grains in their
diet (carnivore= short digestive tract+ limited amylase=undigested
grains=large stools.) Garbage in. garbage out. This is why we see IBD
and other intestinal isues with dry food doets. If you frequent the
IBD list, you'll find that most people have resolved or managed their
cats issues by feeding a raw or canned, grain free diet i.e food
appropriate for a *carnivore.*

Obesity: Free feeding is the #1 reason we have an epidemic of
overweight cats in this country. In the wild, cats are opportunistic
eaters and may eat only once a day depending on what prey they can
catch. Feeding scheduled meals is a lot closer to how they would eat
in nature than is allowing them to graze every few hours all day long.
A food with a high-grain (carbohydrate) content also contributes to
the epidemic of diabetes as well. See these sites (both written by
veterinarians) for more info: http://www.catnutrition.org/diabetes.php
and http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/

Also pay attention to this:

Sustained Hyperglycemia and Hyperlipidemia in Cats: Contribution of
Inflammation and Beta-Cell Loss to the Pathophysiology of Diabetes
E. Zini1; M. Osto2; M. Franchini3; F. Guscetti4; M. Donath5; A.
Perren6; P. Linscheid1; M. Bouwman7; M. Ackermann3; T.A. Lutz2; C.E.
Reusch1
1Clinic for Small Animal Internal Medicine; 2Inst. of Vet. Physiol.;
3Inst. of Virol.; 4Inst. of Vet. Pathol., Vetsuisse Faculty,
University of Zurich, Switzerland; 5Clinic for Endocrinol and
Diabetes, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland; 6Dept. of Pathol.,
Technical University of Munchen, Germany; 7Dept. of Clinical Sciences
of Companion Animals, Utrecht University, The Netherlands


Feline diabetes shares many similarities to human type 2 diabetes
mellitus (T2DM), including islet amyloidosis and â-cell loss. Based on
cultured rodent and human islet cells, it has been demonstrated that
hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia in T2DM have a negative effect on â-
cell viability. Exposure to high glucose or lipid levels induces
interleukin expression in cultured pancreatic islets, followed by Fas
receptor up-regulation and apoptosis of â-cells. In addition, high
glucose levels upregulate islet chemokines and attract neutrophils and
macrophages. Inflammatory cells may contribute to pancreatic-islet
cell death in T2DM. The objective of this study was to investigate the
above findings in vivo in cats.

Eleven healthy cats were infused for 10 days with glucose (n=5) or
lipids (n=6) to target their blood concentrations at the approximate
level found in untreated feline diabetes (glucose: 450-540 mg/dl;
triglycerides: 265-620 mg/dl). As control groups, 10 healthy cats were
either infused with saline (n=5) or did not receive infusion (n=5). On
day 10, blood samples and pancreatic biopsies were collected. Levels
of á1-acid glycoprotein were measured in plasma samples. Isolated
pancreatic islets were used to quantify mRNA transcripts of cytokines
(IL-1â, IL-6, TNF-á) and chemokines (IL-8, MCP-1) by real-time PCR. In
addition, mRNA transcripts of Fas receptor were measured. To quantify
islet neutrophils, pancreatic sections were immunostained with insulin
and myeloperoxidase. Pancreatic sections stained with amylin or
insulin was used to quantify â-cells in pancreatic islets by
morphometric analysis. Statistical differences between groups were
determined with non parametric tests.

Compared to controls, hyperglycemic cats had a 50% reduced number of â-
cells per islet surface and an increased number of neutrophils
relative to â-cells. More apoptotic cells were noted in the pancreatic
islets by light microscopy. In hyperlipidemic cats the number of â-
cells and neutrophils did not differ from control cats. Plasma levels
of á1-acid glycoprotein were increased in cats on glucose and lipid
infusion. Islet quantities of cytokine, chemokines and Fas receptor
transcripts were not different between groups.

Sustained hyperglycemia causes â-cell loss in pancreatic islets of
healthy cats, possibly through increased apoptosis. Even though
hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia are accompanied by a systemic
inflammatory response, inflammation does not seem to occur in
pancreatic islets under the present experimental conditions. The
increased number of neutrophils observed in the pancreatic islets of
hyperglycemic cats needs to be further explored.


Water: Studies have shown that cats that eat canned food have a much
higher overall water intake than a cat who eats dry food and has fresh
water available at all times. The constant state of dehydration that
results from being fed a dry food diet has been implicated in many cat-
health issues with kidney problems and urinary-tract issues being at
the top of the list. Educated veterinarians are increasingly
recommending canned food (including, I've been told, most of the board-
certified feline veterinarian consultants on the Veterinary
Information Network- VIN).

If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
Soylent green anyone?

"Rene S." wrote

If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
Soylent green anyone?

Beautiful, informational post. I am so glad someone is willing to deal with
idiots like Peter. I don't really believe he cares about anything but
convenience and a snappy comeback, though. But thanks for your post anyway.

On Feb 3, 11:38*pm, missToni wrote:

Talk about tempting fate. *He did it again tonight. This time just a
little poo, but on the bed again. And we've had such a good day, lots
of play, patting, positive attention. *I let him out once, for 5
minutes, then offered later to let him out again and he didn't want to
go. *I'm trying to be patient. *How long should I give him to settle
down?-

Just one question - what was he like prior to this change? Do you have
any good, honest information on this?

Before you do anything else, make sure he is completely healthy - no
parasites and no infections. If he is healthy and 'going' on the bed,
then he is both very stressed out and very confused. The Feliway
mentioned by another poster is something to try, does not require a
prescription and does in some cases seem to work **BUT** if it does
not work in your case and **AGAIN** presuming physical health, you may
be forced to try an anti-anxiety drug treatment until he becomes more
secure. You are getting the worst sort of kitten-displacement behavior
out of him at this point and also giving him further stress by
rejecting him due to these habits being incompatible with your
lifestyle - no surprise that you should not like that on the bed, and
no surprise that you are not about to give him a good wash with your
tongue and then nurse him afterwards. Examples picked for effect.

The rule-of-thumb is that as long as he was initially stressed, he
will need about that much time to recover _ONCE_ equilibrium has been
established. Drugs do not speed the recover, just the reaching
equilibrium.

Some cats, especially 'only' cats do not do well with a change in
environment that also includes a change in people and a change in
'privileges' such as going from an indoor/outdoor to indoor only.
Funnily enough, cats from multiple-pet households do much better under
stressful changes, especially if one-or-another of their companions
also make the change, or their people also come along.

Patience. It will be worth it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Feb 4, 5:57*am, "Rene S." wrote:
[snipped]

With all due respect, Peter, you come across as an educated man, but
when it comes to cat nutrition/issues, you seem woefully ignorant. I
don't mean this as an insult, but only as an observation. What you're
failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
Period. This is not negotiable. It's how they've evolved and what they
are, and if you put the wrong fuel in the engine long enough, it's
going to break down. Ten years ago what you state may have been
roundly accepted, but knowledge of feline nutrition and their unique
needs has advanced by leaps and bounds, and more and more vets are
starting to put physiologic needs and design over what the pet food
companies want them (and you) to believe. They don't call it
"corporate interests" for nothing...

To address your points-

Gum and dental health: It's been known for some time that the myth
that dry food is good for dental health is just that: a myth. Cats'
teeth are designed for cutting and tearing and do not have enough
contact time for dry food to have any direct benefit. Offering the cat
braised chicken gizzards or raw chicken wings (provided they are from
a good source and not commercially raised) are better options. Both
require extended contact time with the teeth (gnawing) and are far
superior in contributing to dental health, although brushing is ideal.
See this article (written by a veterinarian) that explains the dry
food myth in detail :http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...t=show&item=do...

Roughage: Cats are carnivores and don't have a proven need for fiber.
Any fiber they do get would be from the stomach contents of their
prey, which is a small part of their diet. If you're truly concerned
about this, you can grow your own cat grass at home and offer that.
Feeding a raw diet containing ground bone is another option. When I
became educated about what appropriate nutrition for an obligate
carnivore is and switched from high fiber dry to grain free, canned
and raw foods, the hairballs I used to clean up all the time
diminished from common to rare.

Digestive health: Putting grains in the digestive tract of a carnivore
is a recipe for disaster. See Laura M.'s experiences with Hobbes on
this newsgroup. Cats are not properly able to utilize grains in their
diet (carnivore= short digestive tract+ limited amylase=undigested
grains=large stools.) Garbage in. garbage out. *This is why we see IBD
and other intestinal isues with dry food doets. If you frequent the
IBD list, you'll find that most people have resolved or managed their
cats issues by feeding a raw or canned, grain free diet i.e food
appropriate for a *carnivore.*

Obesity: Free feeding is the #1 reason we have an epidemic of
overweight cats in this country. In the wild, cats are opportunistic
eaters and may eat only once a day depending on what prey they can
catch. Feeding scheduled meals is a lot closer to how they would eat
in nature than is allowing them to graze every few hours all day long.
A food with a high-grain (carbohydrate) content also contributes to
the epidemic of diabetes as well. See these sites (both written by
veterinarians) for more info:http://www.catnutrition.org/diabetes.php
andhttp://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/

Also pay attention to this:

Sustained Hyperglycemia and Hyperlipidemia in Cats: Contribution of
Inflammation and Beta-Cell Loss to the Pathophysiology of Diabetes
E. Zini1; M. Osto2; M. Franchini3; F. Guscetti4; M. Donath5; A.
Perren6; P. Linscheid1; M. Bouwman7; M. Ackermann3; T.A. Lutz2; C.E.
Reusch1
1Clinic for Small Animal Internal Medicine; 2Inst. of Vet. Physiol.;
3Inst. of Virol.; 4Inst. of Vet. Pathol., Vetsuisse Faculty,
University of Zurich, Switzerland; 5Clinic for Endocrinol and
Diabetes, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland; 6Dept. of Pathol.,
Technical University of Munchen, Germany; 7Dept. of Clinical Sciences
of Companion Animals, Utrecht University, The Netherlands

Feline diabetes shares many similarities to human type 2 diabetes
mellitus (T2DM), including islet amyloidosis and â-cell loss. Based on
cultured rodent and human islet cells, it has been demonstrated that
hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia in T2DM have a negative effect on â-
cell viability. Exposure to high glucose or lipid levels induces
interleukin expression in cultured pancreatic islets, followed by Fas
receptor up-regulation and apoptosis of â-cells. In addition, high
glucose levels upregulate islet chemokines and attract neutrophils and
macrophages. Inflammatory cells may contribute to pancreatic-islet
cell death in T2DM. The objective of this study was to investigate the
above findings in vivo in cats.

Eleven healthy cats were infused for 10 days with glucose (n=5) or
lipids (n=6) to target their blood concentrations at the approximate
level found in untreated feline diabetes (glucose: 450-540 mg/dl;
triglycerides: 265-620 mg/dl). As control groups, 10 healthy cats were
either infused with saline (n=5) or did not receive infusion (n=5). On
day 10, blood samples and pancreatic biopsies were collected. Levels
of á1-acid glycoprotein were measured in plasma samples. Isolated
pancreatic islets were used to quantify mRNA transcripts of cytokines
(IL-1â, IL-6, TNF-á) and chemokines (IL-8, MCP-1) by real-time PCR. In
addition, mRNA transcripts of Fas receptor were measured. To quantify
islet neutrophils, pancreatic sections were immunostained with insulin
and myeloperoxidase. Pancreatic sections stained with amylin or
insulin was used to quantify â-cells in pancreatic islets by
morphometric analysis. Statistical differences between groups were
determined with non parametric tests.

Compared to controls, hyperglycemic cats had a 50% reduced number of â-
cells per islet surface and an increased number of neutrophils
relative to â-cells. More apoptotic cells were noted in the pancreatic
islets by light microscopy. In hyperlipidemic cats the number of â-
cells and neutrophils did not differ from control cats. Plasma levels
of á1-acid glycoprotein were increased in cats on glucose and lipid
infusion. Islet quantities of cytokine, chemokines and Fas receptor
transcripts were not different between groups.

Sustained hyperglycemia causes â-cell loss in pancreatic islets of
healthy cats, possibly through increased apoptosis. Even though
hyperglycemia and hyperlipidemia are accompanied by a systemic
inflammatory response, inflammation does not seem to occur in
pancreatic islets under the present experimental conditions. The
increased number of neutrophils observed in the pancreatic islets of
hyperglycemic cats needs to be further explored.

Water: Studies have shown that cats that eat canned food have a much
higher overall water intake than a cat who eats dry food and has fresh
water available at all times. The constant state of dehydration that
results from being fed a dry food diet has been implicated in many cat-
health issues with kidney problems and urinary-tract issues being at
the top of the list. Educated veterinarians are increasingly
recommending canned food (including, I've been told, most of the board-
certified feline veterinarian consultants on the Veterinary
Information Network- VIN).

If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
Soylent green anyone?

I'd like to second Rene's comments about high quality wet food. I've
battled Hobbes throwing up for literally years. At first it was every
so often. A hairball try I thought. Then, as the years passed, it
grew to a more frequent problem. The vet had no ideas for me at all
when I explained my concerns.

Then, last year he really started having problems. So much so that I
had to have the vet give him repeated enemas. They finally switched
him to a wet food, but after reading the ingredients, it was full of
wheat glutens.

Finally, Hobbes had a pancreatic attack. I almost lost my beloved
cat! The vet STILL had not addressed his food, so I took matters into
my own hand by talking with others here on this newsgroup and other
groups on the net.

Specifically, Rene really helped me a lot. Without her encouragement,
I doubt Hobbes would be with me right now in full health. I've
switched him to the Chicken Wellness wet food and also include a
little warm water mixed in to form a gravy. He loves it! It's been a
few weeks now and his coat is so silky and full! His eyes are clear
and his attitude is playful. He no longer lays around like he used
to, overgrooming himself. Also, he hasn't thrown up once!

Now I make it a habit to brush his teeth at least once a week. I also
use a Q-tip dipped in some mouthwash the vet gave me and rub his back
bottom teeth and gums where I have a hard time reaching with the
brush.

I can't imagine ever feeding him dry food again.

Food for thought.

On Feb 4, 8:57*am, "Rene S." wrote:

If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
Soylent green anyone?

Mpfffff....

Too narrow a point of view, and too little knowledge of the 'good' dry
foods on the market.

From:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2312175_impr...al-health.html

If you feed only canned food, try to purrsuade your cat to eat a good-
quality dry food. A recent study found that cats fed dry food (as
opposed to canned food) had significantly lower levels of dental
deposits and periodontal disease. If you feed a mixture of canned and
dry, or if your cat is already having some dental problems, you may
want to switch to a dental care formula. Hills, Royal Canin, and
Friskies all make dry foods designed for this purpose, and most large
pet shops carry them. Other, prescription-only dental formulas should
be available from your veterinarian.

From

http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/gingivitis.html

In early 1997, two new products came on the market that are designed
to prevent and control tartar and gingivitis. T/D is a dry food
produced by Hill's that is designed to reduce the rate of plaque and
tartar accumulation. If severe disease is already present then the use
of this food is contraindicated. C.E.T. Chews produced by VRx
Pharmaceuticals is a freeze-dried fish treat that provides abrasive
cleansing action as well as antibacterial enzymes to combat
gingivitis. Both products are available through veterinarians and may
prove to be important tools in preventing chronic gingivitis and
ultimate tooth loss in cats.


As the below is a .pdf, I cannot abstract relevant parts:

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Heal...ia_King_08.pdf

http://www.placervillevet.com/feline...tal%20care.htm

And on and on, from the '90s through 2008.

Healthy, happy cats that get enough exercise just don't get fat. In my
57 years of keeping cats, we have never had a fat one, never had one
with diabetes (oldest made 22 and died of cancer), never had one with
any dietary-related disease of any sort. Most were spayed or neutered,
all of them in the last 35 years anyway, most of them towards the end
of their first year of age to enhance physical maturity to the
greatest extent practical. I have kept cats in NYC Apartments and in
villas in Saudi Arabia, and in what is arguably the world's most
prestigious business school.

http://www.petco.com/product/9044/Hi...-Cat-Food.aspx

http://www.entirelypets.com/cetchewforca.html

Yes, cats are carnivores in their natural state. And they are NOT
carrion eaters in their natural state. So, we have already wrong-
footed them by feeding them cold, dead things vs. letting them hunt
live prey. In point of fact, we are changing their entire habit, diet,
and natural behavior by keeping them as kittens their entire lives and
rewarding kitten behavior while discouraging adult-cat behavior -
which would be to sleep from 18-22 hours per day, and be active mostly
at dawn and dusk. Territorial males would defecate on high ground to
mark it and both males and females would scent-mark. Not exactly what
we want living with us. Nor would any cat 'brush its teeth' in its
natural state. Nor can we feed them prey skin, prey hair and prey
bones in their unprocessed state - so we need to replace that function
with something else - roughage. Green, sweet _FRESH_ stuff is best and
very easy to do - popcorn. Gizzards are fine as are raw wings 'cept
that salmonella is present in somewhere between 10% and 40% of
domestic flocks - as it happens more so in 'free-range' flocks due to
greater exposure to environmental sources.

http://www.cat-world.com.au/SalmonellosisInCats.htm

And ground bone just doesn't cut it for the purpose under discussion.

Point being that we have to replace all the things we take away when
we domesticate and kittenize a top-of-the-food-chain carnivore. It
ain't nohow easy, and it is quite uncomfortable both to recognize and
address those issues directly.

So, as we cannot provide them any level whatsoever of a 'natural'
environment stocked with natural prey - other than by letting them go
outside which is an entirely different discussion - and then remain
intact which is yet another one - we create a polite mythology around
what is 'natural' for them. Their potential is already limited and
their environment even more so.

Feeding a cat good food isn't cheap, requires some thought and
attention, and most certainly requires considerable myth-busting. You
will note that I have always referred to 'well designed' foods, I have
often railed against 'corn gluten meal' being fed to a carnivore - but
the brute fact of the matter is that unless we provide actual prey for
our animals, we are left with what is provided by others.

There are those who get the bit in their teeth and just PULL. Add
blinders and you have a good plow horse. There are those who get hold
of a single bit of information, leavened with a good deal of anecdote
and just build and build on it. That is how myths are born.

As to arguing-from-authority, we use Rau Animal Hospital in Glenside,
PA. Dentistry is high on their agenda, they give clinics on home care
and so forth. Their vets strongly suggest a mixture of wet and dry
food for both cats and dogs to help with dental health. They also
strongly advise using 'properly designed' foods for that purpose, not
just the cheapest crap from WalMart. Nor are they hide-bound
conservatives rooted in the distant past - just look over their list
of services and you will see a few surprises.

http://www.rauanimalhospital.com/sit...7_Services.pml

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Feb 4, 9:47*am, " wrote:
On Feb 4, 8:57*am, "Rene S." wrote:

If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
Soylent green anyone?

Mpfffff....

Too narrow a point of view, and too little knowledge of the 'good' dry
foods on the market.

From:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2312175_impr...al-health.html

If you feed only canned food, try to purrsuade your cat to eat a good-
quality dry food. A recent study found that cats fed dry food (as
opposed to canned food) had significantly lower levels of dental
deposits and periodontal disease. If you feed a mixture of canned and
dry, or if your cat is already having some dental problems, you may
want to switch to a dental care formula. Hills, Royal Canin, and
Friskies all make dry foods designed for this purpose, and most large
pet shops carry them. Other, prescription-only dental formulas should
be available from your veterinarian.

From

http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/gingivitis.html

In early 1997, two new products came on the market that are designed
to prevent and control tartar and gingivitis. T/D is a dry food
produced by Hill's that is designed to reduce the rate of plaque and
tartar accumulation. If severe disease is already present then the use
of this food is contraindicated. C.E.T. Chews produced by VRx
Pharmaceuticals is a freeze-dried fish treat that provides abrasive
cleansing action as well as antibacterial enzymes to combat
gingivitis. Both products are available through veterinarians and may
prove to be important tools in preventing chronic gingivitis and
ultimate tooth loss in cats.

As the below is a .pdf, I cannot abstract relevant parts:

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Heal...ia_King_08.pdf

http://www.placervillevet.com/feline...tal%20care.htm

And on and on, from the '90s through 2008.

Healthy, happy cats that get enough exercise just don't get fat. In my
57 years of keeping cats, we have never had a fat one, never had one
with diabetes (oldest made 22 and died of cancer), never had one with
any dietary-related disease of any sort. Most were spayed or neutered,
all of them in the last 35 years anyway, most of them towards the end
of their first year of age to enhance physical maturity to the
greatest extent practical. I have kept cats in NYC Apartments and in
villas in Saudi Arabia, and in what is arguably the world's most
prestigious business school.

http://www.petco.com/product/9044/Hi...ral-Care-Adult...

http://www.entirelypets.com/cetchewforca.html

Yes, cats are carnivores in their natural state. And they are NOT
carrion eaters in their natural state. So, we have already wrong-
footed them by feeding them cold, dead things vs. letting them hunt
live prey. In point of fact, we are changing their entire habit, diet,
and natural behavior by keeping them as kittens their entire lives and
rewarding kitten behavior while discouraging adult-cat behavior -
which would be to sleep from 18-22 hours per day, and be active mostly
at dawn and dusk. Territorial males would defecate on high ground to
mark it and both males and females would scent-mark. Not exactly what
we want living with us. Nor would any cat 'brush its teeth' in its
natural state. Nor can we feed them prey skin, prey hair and prey
bones in their unprocessed state - so we need to replace that function
with something else - roughage. Green, sweet _FRESH_ stuff is best and
very easy to do - popcorn. Gizzards are fine as are raw wings 'cept
that salmonella is present in somewhere between 10% and 40% of
domestic flocks - as it happens more so in 'free-range' flocks due to
greater exposure to environmental sources.

http://www.cat-world.com.au/SalmonellosisInCats.htm

And ground bone just doesn't cut it for the purpose under discussion.

Point being that we have to replace all the things we take away when
we domesticate and kittenize a top-of-the-food-chain carnivore. It
ain't nohow easy, and it is quite uncomfortable both to recognize and
address those issues directly.

So, as we cannot provide them any level whatsoever of a 'natural'
environment stocked with natural prey - other than by letting them go
outside which is an entirely different discussion - and then remain
intact which is yet another one - we create a polite mythology around
what is 'natural' for them. Their potential is already limited and
their environment even more so.

Feeding a cat good food isn't cheap, requires some thought and
attention, and most certainly requires considerable myth-busting. You
will note that I have always referred to 'well designed' foods, I have
often railed against 'corn gluten meal' being fed to a carnivore - but
the brute fact of the matter is that unless we provide actual prey for
our animals, we are left with what is provided by others.

There are those who get the bit in their teeth and just PULL. Add
blinders and you have a good plow horse. There are those who get hold
of a single bit of information, leavened with a good deal of anecdote
and just build and build on it. That is how myths are born.

As to arguing-from-authority, we use Rau Animal Hospital in Glenside,
PA. Dentistry is high on their agenda, they give clinics on home care
and so forth. Their vets strongly suggest a mixture of wet and dry
food for both cats and dogs to help with dental health. They also
strongly advise using 'properly designed' foods for that purpose, not
just the cheapest crap from WalMart. Nor are they hide-bound
conservatives rooted in the distant past - just look over their list
of services and you will see a few surprises.

http://www.rauanimalhospital.com/sit...7_Services.pml

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Sorry Peter, I alot of these areas I would agree with you but I just
can't on the issue of feeding kibble no matter how fancy the packaging
or price tag.

These are an option for dental health. If dental health is the only
thing you're interested in and not the health of the whole animal.
Kibble is made of corn, corn is a carbohydrate. Cats do not need
carbohydrates, although corn is used as a filler for both dry and
canned food. It causes extreme obesity, UTI's, diabetes and a host
of other problems. Cats are strict obligate carnivores meaning:

"It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her
nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-
based proteins (meat) and derives much less nutritional support from
plant-based proteins (grains). It means that cats lack specific
metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as
efficiently as animal proteins. " http://www.catinfo.org/

Please keep feeding kitty a high quality wet food at the very
least!!! Also if you supplement feeding with chicken legs (chunks w/
bone-in) and/or gizzards (whole) are a wonderful way to make kitty
chew and keep his teeth clean without resorting to nasty kibble.

I'm out of time right now, so I'll have to chime in later with some
suggestions on the other issues (if I have any! :-) )

Debbie

On Feb 4, 5:03*pm, DWMeowMix wrote:
On Feb 4, 9:47*am, " wrote:





On Feb 4, 8:57*am, "Rene S." wrote:

If we are honest with ourselves, can we critically look at a bowl of
dry nuggets and think this is an appropriate diet for *any* mammal?
Soylent green anyone?

Mpfffff....

Too narrow a point of view, and too little knowledge of the 'good' dry
foods on the market.

From:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2312175_impr...al-health.html

If you feed only canned food, try to purrsuade your cat to eat a good-
quality dry food. A recent study found that cats fed dry food (as
opposed to canned food) had significantly lower levels of dental
deposits and periodontal disease. If you feed a mixture of canned and
dry, or if your cat is already having some dental problems, you may
want to switch to a dental care formula. Hills, Royal Canin, and
Friskies all make dry foods designed for this purpose, and most large
pet shops carry them. Other, prescription-only dental formulas should
be available from your veterinarian.

From

http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/gingivitis.html

In early 1997, two new products came on the market that are designed
to prevent and control tartar and gingivitis. T/D is a dry food
produced by Hill's that is designed to reduce the rate of plaque and
tartar accumulation. If severe disease is already present then the use
of this food is contraindicated. C.E.T. Chews produced by VRx
Pharmaceuticals is a freeze-dried fish treat that provides abrasive
cleansing action as well as antibacterial enzymes to combat
gingivitis. Both products are available through veterinarians and may
prove to be important tools in preventing chronic gingivitis and
ultimate tooth loss in cats.

As the below is a .pdf, I cannot abstract relevant parts:

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Heal...ia_King_08.pdf

http://www.placervillevet.com/feline...tal%20care.htm

And on and on, from the '90s through 2008.

Healthy, happy cats that get enough exercise just don't get fat. In my
57 years of keeping cats, we have never had a fat one, never had one
with diabetes (oldest made 22 and died of cancer), never had one with
any dietary-related disease of any sort. Most were spayed or neutered,
all of them in the last 35 years anyway, most of them towards the end
of their first year of age to enhance physical maturity to the
greatest extent practical. I have kept cats in NYC Apartments and in
villas in Saudi Arabia, and in what is arguably the world's most
prestigious business school.

http://www.petco.com/product/9044/Hi...ral-Care-Adult...

http://www.entirelypets.com/cetchewforca.html

Yes, cats are carnivores in their natural state. And they are NOT
carrion eaters in their natural state. So, we have already wrong-
footed them by feeding them cold, dead things vs. letting them hunt
live prey. In point of fact, we are changing their entire habit, diet,
and natural behavior by keeping them as kittens their entire lives and
rewarding kitten behavior while discouraging adult-cat behavior -
which would be to sleep from 18-22 hours per day, and be active mostly
at dawn and dusk. Territorial males would defecate on high ground to
mark it and both males and females would scent-mark. Not exactly what
we want living with us. Nor would any cat 'brush its teeth' in its
natural state. Nor can we feed them prey skin, prey hair and prey
bones in their unprocessed state - so we need to replace that function
with something else - roughage. Green, sweet _FRESH_ stuff is best and
very easy to do - popcorn. Gizzards are fine as are raw wings 'cept
that salmonella is present in somewhere between 10% and 40% of
domestic flocks - as it happens more so in 'free-range' flocks due to
greater exposure to environmental sources.

http://www.cat-world.com.au/SalmonellosisInCats.htm

And ground bone just doesn't cut it for the purpose under discussion.

Point being that we have to replace all the things we take away when
we domesticate and kittenize a top-of-the-food-chain carnivore. It
ain't nohow easy, and it is quite uncomfortable both to recognize and
address those issues directly.

So, as we cannot provide them any level whatsoever of a 'natural'
environment stocked with natural prey - other than by letting them go
outside which is an entirely different discussion - and then remain
intact which is yet another one - we create a polite mythology around
what is 'natural' for them. Their potential is already limited and
their environment even more so.

Feeding a cat good food isn't cheap, requires some thought and
attention, and most certainly requires considerable myth-busting. You
will note that I have always referred to 'well designed' foods, I have
often railed against 'corn gluten meal' being fed to a carnivore - but
the brute fact of the matter is that unless we provide actual prey for
our animals, we are left with what is provided by others.

There are those who get the bit in their teeth and just PULL. Add
blinders and you have a good plow horse. There are those who get hold
of a single bit of information, leavened with a good deal of anecdote
and just build and build on it. That is how myths are born.

As to arguing-from-authority, we use Rau Animal Hospital in Glenside,
PA. Dentistry is high on their agenda, they give clinics on home care
and so forth. Their vets strongly suggest a mixture of wet and dry
food for both cats and dogs to help with dental health. They also
strongly advise using 'properly designed' foods for that purpose, not
just the cheapest crap from WalMart. Nor are they hide-bound
conservatives rooted in the distant past - just look over their list
of services and you will see a few surprises.

http://www.rauanimalhospital.com/sit...7_Services.pml

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Sorry Peter, I alot of these areas I would agree with you but I just
can't on the issue of feeding kibble no matter how fancy the packaging
or price tag.

These are an option for dental health. *If dental health is the only
thing you're interested in and not the health of the whole animal.
Kibble is made of corn, corn is a carbohydrate. *Cats do not need
carbohydrates, although corn is used as a filler for both dry and
canned food. *It causes extreme obesity, UTI's, *diabetes *and a host
of other problems. *Cats are strict obligate carnivores meaning:

"It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her
nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-
based proteins (meat) and derives much less nutritional support from
plant-based proteins (grains). It means that cats lack specific
metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as
efficiently as animal proteins. " *http://www.catinfo.org/

Please keep feeding kitty a high quality wet food at the very
least!!! *Also if you supplement feeding with chicken legs (chunks w/
bone-in) and/or gizzards (whole) are a wonderful way to make kitty
chew and keep his teeth clean without resorting to nasty kibble.

I'm out of time right now, so I'll have to chime in later with some
suggestions on the other issues (if I have any! *:-) * )

Debbie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh those are raw BTW!!!

Debbie

Just one question - what was he like prior to this change? Do you have
any good, honest information on this?


From the friend's ex-wife, who suddenly developed the allergies, I got
"he can be very stubborn". No real explanation about what that
means! My friend told me (after the fact), that he had pooped on the
bed before, in response to not being allowed outside during bad
weather (we live in Canada, there's lots of that!) Then he sort of
brushed off the biting issue, to wit "I guess I simply got used to his
'eccentricities', such as the occasional bite". What really ****es me
off is this was not supposed to be a permanent arrangement, merely a
caretaking one while a permanent home was located. Now I'm stuck
because I can't pawn a problem cat off on someone else without full
disclosure!

Some cats, especially 'only' cats do not do well with a change in
environment that also includes a change in people and a change in
'privileges' such as going from an indoor/outdoor to indoor only.
Funnily enough, cats from multiple-pet households do much better under
stressful changes, especially if one-or-another of their companions
also make the change, or their people also come along.

Funny. He came from a house with a rambunctious dog, so I figured my
house might be too quiet, as he is now an only cat, and I'm an only
owner (except when my mum was visiting from Florida). Maybe that IS
the problem, he needs more action. I'm not getting another cat to try
it out, though. All my cats seem to be rescue cats...just once I'd
love to get a kitten!

"Rene S." wrote:

What you're
failing to do is start from the premise that cats are carnivores.
Period. This is not negotiable.

That's fact number one.

Fact number two: Many millions of pet cats over the last 50 years have
lived long and healthy lives on diets which include a surprising amount
of grains. This fact is just as inarguable as fact number one.

If one's theory of cat nutrition, starting from fact number one, cannot
accommodate fact number two, then one would actually be better off not
knowing fact number one.
--

Wayne M.