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#11
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
On May 23, 7:43*am, (---MIKE---) wrote:
Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? *He probably knows more about this than your vet. I'm not going to give interferon to this cat until after I've had a conversation with my vet about quality of life vs. length of life. We should have had that conversation before he prescribed it. |
#12
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
On 23 May, 04:43, (---MIKE---) wrote:
Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? *He probably knows more about this than your vet. * * * * * * * * * -- Calvin If Phil P told me the best treatment for a condition was to feed the cat 20 tablets of LSD whilst adminstering 2 bottles of vodka rectally- I'd go out and get the stuff! He really does know what he is talking about, he's saying if your cat currently has no symptoms then starting treatment now will help him stay healthier longer I work in HIV and the best time to start treatment is when the person has no symptoms- we work on the lab tests (CD4 and viral loads) and many a patient who feels pretty damn good gets started on treatment based on those tests and they go on for a long time (we have patients who have been on therapy for 20+ years and are still fine). Treating someone who has already got ill from HIV is far more problematic. Why not just try the interferon? If the cat then shows signs of being ill then you can discuss it with the vet even stop the treatment until you've seen the vet. Or go back to your vet now and discuss your uneasiness about interferon Cats can be tougher than you think I've heard for example that chemotherapy for cancer is a lot easier for cats than it is for Humans Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs |
#13
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
On May 23, 2:17*pm, wrote:
On 23 May, 04:43, (---MIKE---) wrote: Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? *He probably knows more about this than your vet. Calvin If Phil P told me the best treatment for a condition was to feed the cat 20 tablets of LSD whilst adminstering 2 bottles of vodka rectally- I'd go out and get the stuff! He really does know what he is talking about, he's saying if your cat currently has no symptoms then starting treatment now will help him stay healthier longer * I work in HIV and the best time to start treatment is when the person has no symptoms- we work on the lab tests (CD4 and viral loads) and many a patient who feels pretty damn good gets started on treatment based on those tests and they go on for a long time (we have patients who have been on therapy for 20+ years and are still fine). *Treating someone who has already got ill from HIV is far more problematic. Why not just try the interferon? If the cat then shows signs of being ill then you can discuss it with the vet even stop the treatment until you've seen the vet. Or go back to your vet now and discuss your uneasiness about interferon Cats can be tougher than you think I've heard for example that chemotherapy for cancer is a lot easier for cats than it is for Humans I don't want to make the cat sick even once just to find out if the interferon makes him sick or not. I don't see any need to be hasty here. Also, it seems reasonable to me to finish the antibiotics first, and then we will know what effect the antibiotics have had. If the cat gets interferon too, we won't know which brought about the improvement, and you can be sure everybody would claim it was the interferon. At the very least what I am doing is providing data on the effectiveness of antibiotics alone, and I see clear improvement in the look and feel of the cat's skin and fur already, even before today. So far the cat has had the antibiotics 8 times, with 12 more times to go, at 2 times per day. |
#14
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
On 23 May, 12:08, calvin wrote:
I don't want to make the cat sick even once just to find out if the interferon makes him sick or not. * Fair enough no one wants to make a cat sick- so how about now calling the vet and discussing it with him or her? Antibiotics will cure an infections but they have no effect wahatsover in Feluk I would really just call your vet and explain that you're uneasy about the interferon because you've read/heard it makes the cat feel unwell. I'd ask them to justify the prescription/dose and how that will impact on the cats quality of life etc. If your vet is halfway decent they'll take the time to go through the options with you Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs |
#15
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
On May 23, 4:04*pm, wrote:
On 23 May, 12:08, calvin wrote: I don't want to make the cat sick even once just to find out if the interferon makes him sick or not. * Fair enough no one wants to make a cat sick- so how about now calling the vet and discussing it with him or her? Antibiotics will cure an infections but they have no effect wahatsover in Feluk I would really just call your vet and explain that you're uneasy about the interferon because you've read/heard it makes the cat feel unwell. I'd ask them to justify the prescription/dose and how that will impact on the cats quality of life etc. If your vet is halfway decent they'll take the time to go through the options with you The vet's assistant will call me around the end time of the antibiotics, and I will tell her of the condition of the cat, which I expect to be excellent, and I will also tell her that I have withheld the interferon, and ask her if I can bring the cat back for the vet to look at again, and possibly do the blood sample test for feline leukemia before we start the interferon. That way we will not be relying on the Snap test, and the vet will see the cat looking good, as opposed to his first sight of the cat looking not so good. |
#16
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
"calvin" wrote in message ... On May 23, 3:09 am, "Phil P." wrote: What's the problem with administering IFN PO 7 on/7 off? Its no different than if your cat had some other illness that required daily medication. Because of what I read on the internet. *Where* on the internet? Post the URLs. Does the information apply *specifically* to cats? I think the information your read was extrapolated from human studies. If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug handbook. "Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia, hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia, nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the condition treated." "When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been noted." Is that clear enough for you? If not, see the #2 veterinary drug handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich- Professor of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State. "Adverse Effects Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow suppression." Now you have information from *reliable* sources. Now what's your excuse? If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make sure its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*. It IS different from another illness, because the vet said it is incurable; So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases. though I'm not convinced that he has it. I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody assay). A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow and the cat is persistently infected. I want to know about symptoms, not about a test result. You're *still* not getting it! The reason for giving your cat interferon is so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even help your cat clear the virus. If you wait for your cat to develop symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point. You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses- because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5 stages of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3. Here's a brief outline: (1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes; (2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that disseminate the virus; (3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells, and bone marrow precursor cells; (4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow into the circulatory system; and (5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent shedding of virus into the saliva and urine An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces the virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops 4-6 weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat could be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even years- depending on the virus subgroup. Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy? and that (if what I read is true) will make the cat sick continuously You've been misinformed or you misunderstood what you read. The 7 on/7 off protocol doesn't make cats sick. I've treated literally dozens of FeLV+ cats with higher doses PO and *never* had a problem. A few cats lived ~6 years post diagnosis, other lived 3-5, and some cats extinguished the infection- however, I can't say The leukemia test was done overnight, so I assume it was what you call the Snap test. The Snap test takes only 10 minutes. Why should I not just continue with the antibiotics as prescribed, and then have the vet look at the cat again? I didn't say you stop the antibiotics. Definitely finish the full course of antibiotics. But there is no reason why you shouldn't begin the IFN therapy. I see the cat up close and personal every day, and he doesn't seem sick to me. FeLV+ cats can remain asymptomatic for months to years- but they're still sick. IFN therapy might prolong the period that your cat is asymptomatic. IFN doesn't work in every cat- but it works in enough cats to justify using it. His skin and fur look and feel better to me, though they have a ways to go before they look completely okay, he has a huge appetite, and loves to be rubbed all over. If he was listless and not eating, that would be different. You're not getting this, are you? The reason for beginning IFN therapy now is so he might remain asymptomatic longer. As long as the cat is improving, I don't see a need to rush into anything that will make him sick. 7 on/7 off won't make him sick. I've treated enough cats with this protocol to know what I'm talking about. I can't do the low-dose thing until the vet provides me with what is to be used. Of course. Vet has already provided me with the 7-on/7-off prescription and directions. Googling it shows that it's the high dose. You call it the low dose. Since I don't know whom to believe, I will continue refusing to administer it. I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on the perscription but you did not. I'm asking you again: Post the dose in IU and route (PO, SC, IM). snip I know we're not comunicating well. I know- and its all my fault. I must try harder to be more tolerant of obtuse and obstinate people. Phil |
#17
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
wrote in message ... On 23 May, 04:43, (---MIKE---) wrote: Calvin, Why don't you listen to Phil? He probably knows more about this than your vet. -- Calvin If Phil P told me the best treatment for a condition was to feed the cat 20 tablets of LSD whilst adminstering 2 bottles of vodka rectally- I'd go out and get the stuff! The vodka must be Stoli - neat. P |
#18
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
On May 24, 2:55*am, "Phil P." wrote:
*Where* on the internet? *Post the URLs. Does the information apply *specifically* to cats? *I think the information your read was extrapolated from human studies. If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. *Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug handbook. "Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia, hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia, nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the condition treated." "When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been noted." Is that clear enough for you? *If not, see the #2 veterinary drug handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich- Professor of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State. "Adverse Effects Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow suppression." Now you have information from *reliable* sources. *Now what's your excuse? If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make sure its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*. So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases. I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody assay). *A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow and the cat is persistently infected. You're *still* not getting it! *The reason for giving your cat interferon is so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even help your cat clear the virus. *If you wait for your cat to develop symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point. You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses- because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5 stages of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3. Here's a brief outline: (1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes; (2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that disseminate the virus; (3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells, and bone marrow precursor cells; (4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow into the circulatory system; and (5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent shedding of virus into the saliva and urine An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces the virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops 4-6 weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat could be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even years- depending on the virus subgroup. Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy? I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on the perscription but you did not. *I'm asking you again: Post the dose in IU and route (PO, SC, IM). I wish you wouldn't put so much time and effort into this. Just accept the fact that interferon treatment for this cat is being delayed until my vet explains the risks, which I should have asked him to do, but had not yet become alarmed. You can Google 'interferon feline side effects' and you will see many hits, some of which support your claims, and some of which support my fears. I understand your frustration, but please remember that you have not seen the cat. What I see is a healthy- looking energetic affectionate cat with a huge appetite. His unhealthy-looking skin and fur has undergone a remarkable improvement since antibiotics were started last Tuesday. The vet's label on the bottle of interferon, which I keep refrigerated, says: INTERFERON ORAL SOLUTION GIVE 1 ML DAILY FOR 7 DAYS, SKIP A WEEK [etc] There is nothing more specific, either on the bottle or on the invoice. All it says about the test is: Leukemia/FIV test 35.50 I gave the price only in case it gives you a clue about the kind of test done. As I said before, the cat was kept overnight for the test and other things done (ear treatment, de-worm, rabies shot). Normally, for my other cats, de-worm and rabies shot are done quickly and in my presence. But in this case the vet didn't do anything in my presence. He called me the next day to talk things over, but since I had not Googled anything yet, I didn't know enough to talk about possible side effects, quality of life, etc. |
#19
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
One thing I might add, which I discovered yesterday, is
that the cat has lost his fangs. Though I asked the vet to examine ears, eyes, and mouth, maybe he forgot to look in his mouth. I've never heard of a cat not having his fangs, and have no idea what the cause might be. |
#20
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stray tomcat and interferon revolt
On 23 May, 23:55, "Phil P." wrote:
The vodka must be Stoli - neat. Funnily enough I have a bottle of Stoli in the fridge- blast! Now I'll have to keep it for some feline emergency whereas I was planning to drink it myself sometime Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs |
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