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#1
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Hill's T/D carbs - Thanks, Steve and Liz for the interestingdiscussion
I'm certainly no expert and am reading and asking alot of questions.
Seems like the jury is still out on the carb question diabetes, as well as on the protein/phos question, kidneys. I've run across an awful lot of conflicting information - all from some kind of expert or another. At this point in time, I'm leaning in the direction of reduced (not *none*) carbs, moderate, high quality protein and low phosphorous diet for my older kitty with diabetes. The fact that kidney values don't show a rise until the disease is well underway seems pretty well documented. However, there seems to be quite a bit of research that also says that implementing a "kidney diet" will not *prevent* the disease in otherwise healthy cats. There's also alot of research that supports the thought that cats don't really need carbs at all - they're natural carnivores. However, the proteins used in alot of canned and dry cat foods are combinations of grains, and cats can't produce the right amino acid chains from those sources, like vegetarian humans do. This may be real simplistic, but I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that shooting for something close to the "in the wild" feline diet, may be the best way to go. Still need to do "alot" more research!!! Thanks all- Jean |
#2
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I'm certainly no expert and am reading and asking alot of questions.
Seems like the jury is still out on the carb question diabetes, as well as on the protein/phos question, kidneys. I've run across an awful lot of conflicting information - all from some kind of expert or another. At this point in time, I'm leaning in the direction of reduced (not *none*) carbs, moderate, high quality protein and low phosphorous diet for my older kitty with diabetes. The fact that kidney values don't show a rise until the disease is well underway seems pretty well documented. However, there seems to be quite a bit of research that also says that implementing a "kidney diet" will not *prevent* the disease in otherwise healthy cats. There's also alot of research that supports the thought that cats don't really need carbs at all - they're natural carnivores. However, the proteins used in alot of canned and dry cat foods are combinations of grains, and cats can't produce the right amino acid chains from those sources, like vegetarian humans do. This may be real simplistic, but I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that shooting for something close to the "in the wild" feline diet, may be the best way to go. Still need to do "alot" more research!!! Thanks all- Jean |
#3
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Jean, in my opinion you understood it all very well. Wish you luck
with your kitties, I'm sure they have many great years ahead of them despite the health problems. |
#4
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Jean, in my opinion you understood it all very well. Wish you luck
with your kitties, I'm sure they have many great years ahead of them despite the health problems. |
#5
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"Jean" wrote in message ... Sorry for coming in late -- just got back. I'm certainly no expert and am reading and asking alot of questions. Seems like the jury is still out on the carb question diabetes, as well as on the protein/phos question, kidneys. I've run across an awful lot of conflicting information - all from some kind of expert or another. That's precisely why I would err on the side of caution and follow the thinking of the majority of the mainstream veterinary community regarding lowing phosphorus intake. Protein, however, shouldn't be reduced until the BUN reaches 60 mg/dl. At this point in time, I'm leaning in the direction of reduced (not *none*) carbs, moderate, high quality protein and low phosphorous diet for my older kitty with diabetes. The fact that kidney values don't show a rise until the disease is well underway seems pretty well documented. However, there seems to be quite a bit of research that also says that implementing a "kidney diet" will not *prevent* the disease in otherwise healthy cats. Here's where there seems to be a bit of confusion. The reason for implementing a kidney or lower phosphorus diet isn't to "prevent" CRF but to *delay* the onset of *clinical* CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF.. As you're aware, kidney values usually don't rise until ~75% of renal function has been lost. IOW, many cats are *already* in *subclinical* CRF well *before* CRF is detected by routine blood/USG tests. In fact, based on data submitted to the Veterinary MedÂ*ical Data Base at Purdue, 37% of cats with CRF were less than 10 years old. The mean age of diagnosis was 7.4 years for cats. Another survey at VMDB, showed 53% of affected cats were over 7 years old and 47% were less than 7. That means CRF can begin at 4 or 5 or even younger in some cats. The cats ranged in age from 9 months to 22 years. IOW, without highly specialized tests, we never know when CRF actually begins. Therefore, lowering phosphorus intake early in life will more than likely delay the onset of clinical CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF in cats with undetected CRF. There's absolutely no benefit in feeding high phosphorus diets. Good luck. Phil |
#6
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"Jean" wrote in message ... Sorry for coming in late -- just got back. I'm certainly no expert and am reading and asking alot of questions. Seems like the jury is still out on the carb question diabetes, as well as on the protein/phos question, kidneys. I've run across an awful lot of conflicting information - all from some kind of expert or another. That's precisely why I would err on the side of caution and follow the thinking of the majority of the mainstream veterinary community regarding lowing phosphorus intake. Protein, however, shouldn't be reduced until the BUN reaches 60 mg/dl. At this point in time, I'm leaning in the direction of reduced (not *none*) carbs, moderate, high quality protein and low phosphorous diet for my older kitty with diabetes. The fact that kidney values don't show a rise until the disease is well underway seems pretty well documented. However, there seems to be quite a bit of research that also says that implementing a "kidney diet" will not *prevent* the disease in otherwise healthy cats. Here's where there seems to be a bit of confusion. The reason for implementing a kidney or lower phosphorus diet isn't to "prevent" CRF but to *delay* the onset of *clinical* CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF.. As you're aware, kidney values usually don't rise until ~75% of renal function has been lost. IOW, many cats are *already* in *subclinical* CRF well *before* CRF is detected by routine blood/USG tests. In fact, based on data submitted to the Veterinary MedÂ*ical Data Base at Purdue, 37% of cats with CRF were less than 10 years old. The mean age of diagnosis was 7.4 years for cats. Another survey at VMDB, showed 53% of affected cats were over 7 years old and 47% were less than 7. That means CRF can begin at 4 or 5 or even younger in some cats. The cats ranged in age from 9 months to 22 years. IOW, without highly specialized tests, we never know when CRF actually begins. Therefore, lowering phosphorus intake early in life will more than likely delay the onset of clinical CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF in cats with undetected CRF. There's absolutely no benefit in feeding high phosphorus diets. Good luck. Phil |
#7
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Phil P. wrote:
"Jean" wrote in message ... Sorry for coming in late -- just got back. I've been in and out too - spending alot of time on the feline diabetes message board and forgetting to keep up with other things :-) This is a great discussion though and *very* relevant to what's going on with my kitty right now. I'm certainly no expert and am reading and asking alot of questions. Seems like the jury is still out on the carb question diabetes, as well as on the protein/phos question, kidneys. I've run across an awful lot of conflicting information - all from some kind of expert or another. That's precisely why I would err on the side of caution and follow the thinking of the majority of the mainstream veterinary community regarding lowing phosphorus intake. Protein, however, shouldn't be reduced until the BUN reaches 60 mg/dl. (do you have any references for this? I'm not doubting it - it fits with what things I've read that don't give numeric guidelines. A professional reference would be helpful to have when discussing this with my vet) I completely agree. My problem has been that my kitty's current BUN is only 32 after a 34 reading in February. Creatinine is only 1.6 after a 2.4 in Feb. Lab upper normal limits were 34 and 2.3. Kitty's been on K/D since Feb. but was just Dx with diabetes. That's what puts a whole different spin on the relative value of K/D which is very low protein, vry low phos and very high carb and fat. My vet wants him to stay on KD but I'm thinking it would be better to go for something with moderate protein, low phos and much lower carb in order to treat the diabetes better. The choices are a little limited, but there are some foods out there that meet that criteria. The other problem I'm seeing with KD is how high in fat it is - 50%. My kitty is 16, has a bit of a weight problem and high cholesterol Here's where there seems to be a bit of confusion. The reason for implementing a kidney or lower phosphorus diet isn't to "prevent" CRF but to *delay* the onset of *clinical* CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF.. As you're aware, kidney values usually don't rise until ~75% of renal function has been lost. IOW, many cats are *already* in *subclinical* CRF well *before* CRF is detected by routine blood/USG tests. In fact, based on data submitted to the Veterinary MedÂ*ical Data Base at Purdue, 37% of cats with CRF were less than 10 years old. The mean age of diagnosis was 7.4 years for cats. Another survey at VMDB, showed 53% of affected cats were over 7 years old and 47% were less than 7. That means CRF can begin at 4 or 5 or even younger in some cats. The cats ranged in age from 9 months to 22 years. IOW, without highly specialized tests, we never know when CRF actually begins. Therefore, lowering phosphorus intake early in life will more than likely delay the onset of clinical CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF in cats with undetected CRF. There's absolutely no benefit in feeding high phosphorus diets. Good points. I'm seeing another vet tomorrow for a second opinion about a good diet, considering the diabetes as well as any sub-clinical kidney disease. Seems like paying the most attention to low carb (better for the diabetes) and low phos (better for the kidneys) will address both needs the best - we'll see what he has to say. I really need advice that's geared to the "whole cat" so that I'm not making one problem worse or creating a whole new problem while trying to treat only one of several. Who knows, since the diabetes developed within 3 months of starting KD, maybe the high carb content even contributed to that. Thanks for the thoughts - Jean |
#8
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Phil P. wrote:
"Jean" wrote in message ... Sorry for coming in late -- just got back. I've been in and out too - spending alot of time on the feline diabetes message board and forgetting to keep up with other things :-) This is a great discussion though and *very* relevant to what's going on with my kitty right now. I'm certainly no expert and am reading and asking alot of questions. Seems like the jury is still out on the carb question diabetes, as well as on the protein/phos question, kidneys. I've run across an awful lot of conflicting information - all from some kind of expert or another. That's precisely why I would err on the side of caution and follow the thinking of the majority of the mainstream veterinary community regarding lowing phosphorus intake. Protein, however, shouldn't be reduced until the BUN reaches 60 mg/dl. (do you have any references for this? I'm not doubting it - it fits with what things I've read that don't give numeric guidelines. A professional reference would be helpful to have when discussing this with my vet) I completely agree. My problem has been that my kitty's current BUN is only 32 after a 34 reading in February. Creatinine is only 1.6 after a 2.4 in Feb. Lab upper normal limits were 34 and 2.3. Kitty's been on K/D since Feb. but was just Dx with diabetes. That's what puts a whole different spin on the relative value of K/D which is very low protein, vry low phos and very high carb and fat. My vet wants him to stay on KD but I'm thinking it would be better to go for something with moderate protein, low phos and much lower carb in order to treat the diabetes better. The choices are a little limited, but there are some foods out there that meet that criteria. The other problem I'm seeing with KD is how high in fat it is - 50%. My kitty is 16, has a bit of a weight problem and high cholesterol Here's where there seems to be a bit of confusion. The reason for implementing a kidney or lower phosphorus diet isn't to "prevent" CRF but to *delay* the onset of *clinical* CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF.. As you're aware, kidney values usually don't rise until ~75% of renal function has been lost. IOW, many cats are *already* in *subclinical* CRF well *before* CRF is detected by routine blood/USG tests. In fact, based on data submitted to the Veterinary MedÂ*ical Data Base at Purdue, 37% of cats with CRF were less than 10 years old. The mean age of diagnosis was 7.4 years for cats. Another survey at VMDB, showed 53% of affected cats were over 7 years old and 47% were less than 7. That means CRF can begin at 4 or 5 or even younger in some cats. The cats ranged in age from 9 months to 22 years. IOW, without highly specialized tests, we never know when CRF actually begins. Therefore, lowering phosphorus intake early in life will more than likely delay the onset of clinical CRF and slow the progression of subclinical CRF in cats with undetected CRF. There's absolutely no benefit in feeding high phosphorus diets. Good points. I'm seeing another vet tomorrow for a second opinion about a good diet, considering the diabetes as well as any sub-clinical kidney disease. Seems like paying the most attention to low carb (better for the diabetes) and low phos (better for the kidneys) will address both needs the best - we'll see what he has to say. I really need advice that's geared to the "whole cat" so that I'm not making one problem worse or creating a whole new problem while trying to treat only one of several. Who knows, since the diabetes developed within 3 months of starting KD, maybe the high carb content even contributed to that. Thanks for the thoughts - Jean |
#10
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From: Jean
Phil P. wrote: There's absolutely no benefit in feeding high phosphorus diets. Seems like paying the most attention to low carb (better for the diabetes) and low phos (better for the kidneys) will address both needs the best - we'll see what he has to say. I really need advice that's geared to the "whole cat" so that I'm not making one problem worse or creating a whole new problem while trying to treat only one of several. Who knows, since the diabetes developed within 3 months of starting KD, maybe the high carb content even contributed to that. Hi Jean, I think it's great that you're researching the best diet for your cat. I think the quality of the protein you feed is very important. While there are many conflicting opinions on the phosphorous issue, I don't think anyone is advocating a high phosphorous diet. I do think while phosphorous is important, it is also very important to look at the entire diet and to feed a high quality diet that is fit for a carnivore and that isn't grain based. I think you've got it right, when seeing the cat as a whole being. That's the main philosphy of holistic vets. Best of luck with finding the right diet for your kitty Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm |
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