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Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 28th 07, 08:30 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Rhonda
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Default Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast

cybercat wrote:
"Rhonda" wrote

Hey Cindy,

This was an interesting bit of additional grossness from one cat site:

--------------------
Definition: Meat By-Products are parts of slaughtered animals, not
including meat (please note: no muscle meat included). Included are lungs,
spleen, kidneys, brain, liver, blood, bone, partially defatted
low-temperature fatty tissue, and stomach and intestines freed of their
contents.

What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally
contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized
cats and dogs, including their collars. These source products are
rendered, the fat is siphoned off to be used as "animal fat," and the
remaining material is extruded to form "meat by-product meal."

From: http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglos...meatbyprod.htm
--------------------



Rhonda, I don't believe that the pet food we buy in the US can contain
euthanized dogs and cats and their collars.

Horse ****.


Oh no. Horse **** is now in pet foods too?

Rhonda

  #22  
Old June 28th 07, 08:35 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Rhonda
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Default Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil --

cybercat wrote:
"Rhonda" wrote

What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally
contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized
cats and dogs, including their collars. These source products are
rendered, the fat is siphoned off to be used as "animal fat," and the
remaining material is extruded to form "meat by-product meal."



I note that although the author puts this section in quotes, she does not
name her source. I looked but can't find a way to email her from the site.
It may be true, but it sure doesn't ring true to me.



Okay, I read a few more sites. Below is part of an interesting one. I
think from now on I'm just going to feed our cats mice. -Rhonda

Animal Protein

Dogs and cats are carnivores, and do best on a meat-based diet. The
protein used in pet food comes from a variety of sources. When cattle,
swine, chickens, lambs, or other animals are slaughtered, lean muscle
tissue is trimmed away from the carcass for human consumption, along
with the few organs that people like to eat, such as tongues and tripe.

However, about 50% of every food animal does not get used in human
foods. Whatever remains of the carcass — heads, feet, bones, blood,
intestines, lungs, spleens, livers, ligaments, fat trimmings, unborn
babies, and other parts not generally consumed by humans — is used in
pet food, animal feed, fertilizer, industrial lubricants, soap, rubber,
and other products. These “other parts” are known as “by-products.”
By-products are used in feed for poultry and livestock as well as in pet
food.

The nutritional quality of by-products, meals, and digests can vary from
batch to batch. James Morris and Quinton Rogers, of the University of
California at Davis Veterinary School, assert that, “[pet food]
ingredients are generally by-products of the meat, poultry and fishing
industries, with the potential for a wide variation in nutrient
composition. Claims of nutritional adequacy of pet foods based on the
current Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) nutrient
allowances (‘profiles’) do not give assurances of nutritional adequacy
and will not until ingredients are analyzed and bioavailability values
are incorporated.”3

Meat or poultry “by-products” are very common in wet pet foods. Remember
that “meat” refers to only cows, swine, sheep, and goats. Since sheep
and goats are rare compared to the 37 million cows and 100 million hogs
slaughtered for food every year, nearly all meat by-products come from
cattle and pigs.

The better brands of pet food, such as many “super-premium,” “natural,”
and “organic” varieties, do not use by-products. On the label, you’ll
see one or more named meats among the first few ingredients, such as
“turkey” or “lamb.” These meats are still mainly leftover scraps; in the
case of poultry, bones are allowed, so “chicken” consists mainly of
backs and frames—the spine and ribs, minus their expensive breast meat.
The small amount of meat left on the bones is the meat in the pet food.
Even with this less-attractive source, pet food marketers are very
tricky when talking about meat, so this is explained further in the
section on “Marketing Magic” below.

Meat meals, poultry meals, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal are
common ingredients in dry pet foods. The term “meal” means that these
materials are not used fresh, but have been rendered. While there are
chicken, turkey, and poultry by-product meals there is no equivalent
term for mammal “meat by-product meal” — it is called
“meat-and-bone-meal.” It may also be referred to by species, such as
“beef-and-bone-meal” or “pork-and-bone-meal.”

What is rendering? As defined by Webster’s Dictionary, to render is “to
process as for industrial use: to render livestock carcasses and to
extract oil from fat, blubber, etc., by melting.” In other words, raw
materials are dumped into large vat and boiled for several hours.
Rendering separates fat, removes water, and kills bacteria, viruses,
parasites, and other organisms. However, the high temperatures used
(270°F/130°C) can alter or destroy natural enzymes and proteins found in
the raw ingredients.

Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs
and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most
common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that
were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were
meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very
sensitive tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found.
Industry insiders admit that rendered pets and roadkill were used in pet
food some years ago. Although there are still no laws or regulations
against it, the practice is uncommon today, and pet food companies
universally deny that their products contain any such materials.
However, so-called “4D” animals (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) were
only recently banned for human consumption and are still legitimate
ingredients for pet food.

http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1

  #23  
Old June 28th 07, 02:06 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cybercat
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Posts: 4,212
Default Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast


"Rhonda" wrote :

Rhonda, I don't believe that the pet food we buy in the US can contain
euthanized dogs and cats and their collars.

Horse ****.


Oh no. Horse **** is now in pet foods too?

Rhonda


hahaha!

What a style you have!


  #24  
Old June 28th 07, 02:10 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cybercat
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Posts: 4,212
Default Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast


"Rhonda" wrote :

Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs
and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most
common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that were
most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were
meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very sensitive
tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found. Industry
insiders admit that rendered pets and roadkill were used in pet food some
years ago. Although there are still no laws or regulations against it, the
practice is uncommon today, and pet food companies universally deny that
their products contain any such materials. However, so-called “4D” animals
(dead, dying, diseased, disabled) were only recently banned for human
consumption and are still legitimate ingredients for pet food.


If no cat or dog DNA, then no pets. Good to know.

Maybe the pentobarbital is used to euthanize injured livestock?
Thanks for looking this up for me, Rhonda.


  #25  
Old June 30th 07, 07:51 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
-L.
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Posts: 521
Default Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast


Rhonda wrote:
sniperoo


Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs
and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most
common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that
were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were
meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very
sensitive tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found.


Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show
up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or
beef; if the product is heated at high enough temps the DNA is
denatured resulting in false negatives; since there are tons of other
enzymes floating around in the mix, the DNA is probably chewed beyond
the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what
they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed.

I would be interested to see what positive controls they used in the
experiments. Basically, they would need to add dog and/or cat bodies
to processing-sized vats of other meats in different concentrations
until the DNA could be detected, and then, IF the amount detected was
small enough to be significant and easily detected, they could
extrapolate whether or not production vats are likely to have
contained dogs and/or cats based on their sampling results. To do
this experiment properly, it would be extremely expensive. Knowing
the FDA as I do, I find it highly unlikely that they did anything more
than take multiple samples and test it for dog and cat DNA at *some*
level, which may or may not be relevant.

Sorry if this doesn't make complete sense - I am surfing on a killer
migraine today...
-L.

  #26  
Old June 30th 07, 03:51 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Barry
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Posts: 587
Default Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast

On Jun 30, 2:51 am, "-L." wrote:

Sorry if this doesn't make complete sense - I am surfing on a killer
migraine today...
-L.


what's the problem

  #27  
Old June 30th 07, 03:56 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cybercat
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Posts: 4,212
Default Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast


"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show
up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or
beef; if the product is heated at high enough temps the DNA is
denatured resulting in false negatives; since there are tons of other
enzymes floating around in the mix, the DNA is probably chewed beyond
the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what
they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed.


The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs
to cats and dogs?


  #28  
Old June 30th 07, 10:38 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Phil P.
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Posts: 1,027
Default Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast


"cybercat" wrote in message
...

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show
up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or
beef; if the product is heated at high enough temps the DNA is
denatured resulting in false negatives; since there are tons of other
enzymes floating around in the mix, the DNA is probably chewed beyond
the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what
they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed.


The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs
to cats and dogs?



I wouldn't give much credibility to anything written by the API . They're
on the fringe-- right next to Ann Martin!


  #29  
Old June 30th 07, 11:25 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Phil P.
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Posts: 1,027
Default Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast


"cindys" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote in message
news:u5Cfi.10473$xy.8716@trnddc06...

"cindys" wrote in message
...

Hiya Cindi,


Hi yourself, Phil!


products. Then, I moved to FF because I considered that it was better
quality.


It is- much higher protein content.


As time went on, after reading this newsgroup, and after I did a
bunch of reading on the internet about the importance/quality of muscle
meats as opposed to byproducts


Actually, by-products contain *much* more nutrients than muscle meats.
Muscle meat (skeletal meat) is very deficient in most vitamins and
minerals,
Cats in the wild eat much more by-products than skeletal meat


I thought the by-products were processed parts of the animals, parts that
were unusable for humans and would be rejected by the FDA.



Most of the cat's natural diet would be rejected by the FDA.





and after I read some excerpts from the book
_Foods Pets Die For_ and learned the source of those byproducts,



Oh no! Not Ann Martin! LOL! We sliced, diced and shredded most of her
bull**** exaggerations a few years ago. She hasn't been back since.


Thanks for saving me time and money. I was going to buy her book. Now, I
won't.


Her
bull**** claims and exaggerations didn't stand up to scrutiny. She took

a
few isolated instances from a few low-end generic pet food manufacturers
and
extrapolated then to the whole pet food industry. If you ask me, she
isn't
playing with a full deck--



and then of
course the melamine thing,



A real nightmare for sure. But that was actually caused by one person.


Yup.


Watch
the incidence of CRF in cats start declining. The person didn't just
decide
to dump a load of melamine in the wheat gluten- it was gradual-- to see
how
much he could get away with-


Yup.


I wanted to feed my cats human grade cat food
which by definition cannot contain byproducts.


I'm not sure you really understand what by-products are. Human foods
contain by-products.

This is the AAFCO definition:



"Meat by-products is the non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat,
derived
from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs,
spleen,
kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature
fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It

does
not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use

in
animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must

correspond
thereto. (9.3)"


This is just the opposite of what I thought the byproducts were. I thought
they were rendered, nonclean parts etc and *did* include horns, hair,

teeth,
hoofs, etc However, I *thought* I got my information regarding the
preferability of muscle meats from the website where the veterinarian
explains about cat food and then recommends a few different ones, but I've
read so many things, I really can't say for sure.


Who was the vat? Pitcairn? lol Go to the USDA Nutrient Database and look up
the nutrient content of muscle meats-- you'll see they contain little to no
vitamins and very little minerals.


By-products got a bad name from the au natural fanatics and Nutro.




I also needed to choose one
that contained few carbohydrates because of the diabetes and that was

how
I
eventually came to Wellness.


I don't know if you know that Wellnesss is manufactured by Menu Foods,
too.
Wellness also contains a lot of vegetables which have a higher glycemic
index than most grains.


Interesting.


At one point, I was buying Pet Promise, which I
still think is an excellent quality food, but it does contain rice and
potatoes. I had asked my vet if she thought FF was a good choice, and

she
stated that she wouldn't recommend any supermarket pet food.


Most vets are clueless about nutrition. They're "educated" by pet food
manufacturers' reps.


I can't speak for the supermarket brand, but I did know the Pet Promise

was
good food and it was available in the supermarket. When I asked the vet
about it, she was completely unfamiliar with it.


I currently
have been feeding my cats Wellness and FF because they really like it
(despite the byproducts). My cats seem to only be willing to eat the

pate
varieties. I try to avoid the varieties that are chunks or slices in
gravy
because my cats just lick off the gravy and leave the rest.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.


I'm really happy you've weaned your cat off insulin!!!


It happened almost immediately after I put him on canned food (and Purina

OM
dry).

I've weaned several
diabetic cats off insulin by feeding them Fancy Feast Oceanfish and

Tuna.

That's another flavor I sometimes buy in addition to the Tender Beef

Feast.

Phil, I just want to thank you again for all your help. I also want to

share
with you (and don't ask me how this could be, but I'm not going to look a
gift horse in the mouth), that Alex's BUN is back to being within normal
limits. His creatinine is still abnormal but has come down considerably

and
is much closer to the normal range.



I'm glad to hear it- but I'm not surprised- Omega-3s are renoprotective. My
CRF cat's renal parameters are back in the normal range- even her USG has
increased since I've been giving her omega-3s and K+ supplements.


I followed your advice and did not put
him on low protein cat food (contrary to the vet's advice). I also give

him
potassium and omega-3 supplementation on the basis of your advice.



I'm very happy you decided against a low protein diet at this point.


I have
done subcu fluids a few times, but overall not, as the vet says he doesn't
really need them at this point. I can't say he's bouncy and perky, but for

a
senior cat, he's doing okay. I do give him Pepcid daily now and that seems
to keep his appetite up. The vet now says he seems stable, and even though
he has CRF, he could potentially stay at his current numbers for several
years without the disease actually progressing.

Once again, thank you so much for all your help.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.


Thanks for the update- I love to hear good news for a change!

Phil



  #30  
Old July 2nd 07, 10:08 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
-L.
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Posts: 521
Default Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast


cybercat wrote:

The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs
to cats and dogs?


Cheap source of protein. The bodies are disposed of, anyway, so if
they can be sent to a rendering plant and that material used in dog
food - voila - income for whomever is selling the bodies. For the
manufactuer, it's gotta be cheaper than cow, pig and chicken guts.

-L.

 




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