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When do you "call it a day"?



 
 
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  #13  
Old April 21st 09, 10:25 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
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Posts: 72
Default When do you "call it a day"?

wrote:
I hear you. Listen, this may be off the wall but I take many heart
related
Rx meds for not CHF but relate stuff, w/o going into detail. One of
them
*is* Plavix and I get it through my HMO cheaper than the Canadian
quote
given here. Only Phil P. would know, as superinformed non-vet the deep
answer to this next I say: maybe he'll favor us with an opinion....I
do take
those drugs and have regular, multiple blood tests re my condition and
the efficacy of the drugs to date. I have *very few* xrays (overpriced
in
general in my hoomin-judgement in vets offices unless for foreign body
location or trauma 411....they can and do reveal fluid retention from
CHF
in hoomins....but lab wrk and an exam do the same much cheaper.
Of course i base the above on all I know about *human* CHF not cats.


Thanks, Hopitus. Yes, we can't afford further thoracentesis operations
or X-rays under general anaesthetic etc., and, anyway, we don't think
that the poor cat itself can withstand such trauma again. So it is up
to whatever drugs can do "the trick". We are prepared to pay for them
(and for the many tins of tuna and natural yoghourt necessary to get all
these pills down the cat's throat!). As for WHICH drugs, precisely,
well we appreciate the suggestions given here, by you and others, but at
the end of the day you have to go with your vet's beliefs, don't you.
Otherwise you part company with your vet or your vet loses confidence in
you and you're on your own, which, if one is not a vet, is a dangerous
road to go down. So all our faith is in our vet now. As long as she
keeps telling us there is hope in drugs we will purchase them and
administer them . . . until such time as the cat's happiness clearly
comes to an end . . . which of course is going to happen one day.

Thanks, again.

Eddy.

  #14  
Old April 21st 09, 01:33 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cindys
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Posts: 592
Default When do you "call it a day"?

On Apr 21, 5:25*am, Eddy
wrote:
wrote:
I hear you. Listen, this may be off the wall but I take many heart
related
Rx meds for not CHF but relate stuff, w/o going into detail. One of
them
*is* Plavix and I get it through my HMO cheaper than the Canadian
quote
given here.


The operative word here is "through your HMO." A cat is not covered
under an HMO. Any medications that someone buys for animals must be
paid for in cash, out of pocket. Sure your HMO copay on Plavix is
cheaper than the Canadian cash price for clopidogrel (generic Plavix),
but if someone is paying full price, cash out of pocket, the Canadian
price for the generic is much cheaper than anything available anywhere
in the USA. The generic clopidogrel (which is not available in the
USA) is always going to be cheaper than the brand-name Plavix. The
clopidogrel that I buy from Canada is produced in a well-known and
well-respected pharmaceutical company in India. In the USA, the drug
company that manufactures the brand-name drug Plavix has an exclusive
contract, so the generic version is not yet available in the USA (and
probably won't be for years to come).

As an aside, just in general, any medication that a person needs to
pay for with cash (i.e. doesn't have insurance) for either an animal
or even for a person is often cheaper from Canada.

Only Phil P. would know, as superinformed non-vet the deep
answer to this next I say: maybe he'll favor us with an opinion....I
do take
those drugs and have regular, multiple blood tests re my condition and
the efficacy of the drugs to date. I have *very few* xrays (overpriced
in
general in my hoomin-judgement in vets offices unless for foreign body
location or trauma 411....they can and do reveal fluid retention from
CHF
in hoomins....but lab wrk and an exam do the same much cheaper.
Of course i base the above on all I know about *human* CHF not cats.


Thanks, Hopitus. *Yes, we can't afford further thoracentesis operations
or X-rays under general anaesthetic etc., and, anyway, we don't think
that the poor cat itself can withstand such trauma again. *So it is up
to whatever drugs can do "the trick". *We are prepared to pay for them
(and for the many tins of tuna and natural yoghourt necessary to get all
these pills down the cat's throat!). *


To cite myself from a post I wrote last year:

Ask your vet for a "piller." This is a plastic stick with a rubber cap
at
one end and a plunger at the other. You insert the pill into the
endcap,
open the cat's mouth with your fingers, put the pill-end of the piller
to
the back of the cat's mouth/throat and push the plunger. Voila! Entire
operation completed in about three seconds or less, and you know the
cat got the full dose and swallowed it.

And here's another tip: If you have multiple pills to give the cat,
get some clear, empty gelatin capsules and put the pills in there. The
capsules come in multiple sizes, and if the pills are small enough,
several
pills or pieces of pills can fit in one capsule. I manage to fit four
pills/pieces of pills into one gelatin capsule (the smallest size). So
from
my cat's perspective, he's getting one pill rather than four. ... I
never have
to wonder if he got the medicine or if it's still hiding somewhere in
his
food dish. And the piller is long enough that I can avoid getting
scratched
or bitten because once I put the piller in his mouth, I can take my
hands
away. The piller costs about $5.

You have to be sure to get the tip of the piller (the endcap holds the
pill)
all the way to the back of the cat's throat (over the back of the
tongue).
If you don't get it back far enough, the cat will indeed spit it out.

What I do is hold my cat securely on my lap, facing away from me. With
my left hand (I'm right handed), I come around from the left side and
use my
thumb and forefinger to open his mouth (I put my fingers in the
corners of
his mouth where there are no teeth). Then, with my right hand, I put
the
piller back far enough in his mouth so the endcap is in the back of
his
throat (past the base of his tongue). I have found from experience
that if I
don't put the piller back far enough, the pill will go in his mouth
and not
down his throat, and he can indeed spit it out. The operation only
takes
about one second, so he doesn't gag. The piller is long, so he can't
close
his teeth on the fingers of my right hand (which is what used to
happen when
I tried getting the pill down his throat with my fingers). Those teeth
were
mighty sharp. While I'm holding the piller in my right hand, I am
simultaneously keeping his paws out of the way with my right forearm.
This
isn't always foolproof, and I have still gotten clawed a couple of
times. If
there is another person present, I will ask the other person to hold
the cat's paws, so he can't claw me. As I said, the whole operation
only
takes a couple of seconds, so the pill is down the cat's throat before
he
knows what happened.

BTW, don't worry that the cat will gag. It is actually much worse when
the
pill doesn't get all the way to the back of the throat. The cat then
tries
desperately to spit it out and starts drooling. My cat has never once
gagged/thrown up from being pilled.

Here is an illustration. Scroll to the bottom to see the image of the
cat
being pilled with the piller:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D2%26hl%3Den

As for WHICH drugs, precisely,
well we appreciate the suggestions given here, by you and others, but at
the end of the day you have to go with your vet's beliefs, don't you.


Just so you know, the advice to use Plavix (clopidogrel) rather than
plain aspirin is fairly cutting edge (WRT cats) but came directly from
Cornell. If you ask your vet about it, and she sort of blows it off,
please request that she at least place a phone call to Cornell.

Somewhere on Yahoo, there is a support group which is specifically for
people who have cats with various heart diseases, and from what I read
there, it's extremely rare for a cat who's on Plavix to form a clot.
According to the participants on that group, it is not unusual for a
cat taking Plavix to still be alive a year or more down the road.
Clots are a major danger/cause of death for cats with heart disease.
Of course, that doesn't do anything for the need for ongoing
thoracocentesis :-(

Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Otherwise you part company with your vet or your vet loses confidence in
you and you're on your own, which, if one is not a vet, is a dangerous
road to go down. *So all our faith is in our vet now. *As long as she
keeps telling us there is hope in drugs we will purchase them and
administer them . . . until such time as the cat's happiness clearly
comes to an end . . . which of course is going to happen one day.

Thanks, again.

Eddy.


  #15  
Old April 21st 09, 05:14 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
[email protected]
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Posts: 35
Default When do you "call it a day"?

Eddy,

A suggestion to help with medicine costs: have you checked pricing a
different place? Walmart and Sam's Club generally have cheaper
medications. Ask your vet for a prescription (if he's taking human
medications) and shop around.

A comparison: My vet charged $21 for 20 pills of turbuteline (a
broncho diolater). I was able to get 30 pills at Walmart for $17.xx.

You could potentially save a lot of money by doing this.
  #16  
Old April 21st 09, 05:19 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Matthew[_3_]
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Posts: 2,287
Default When do you "call it a day"?


wrote in message
...
Eddy,

A suggestion to help with medicine costs: have you checked pricing a
different place? Walmart and Sam's Club generally have cheaper
medications. Ask your vet for a prescription (if he's taking human
medications) and shop around.

A comparison: My vet charged $21 for 20 pills of turbuteline (a
broncho diolater). I was able to get 30 pills at Walmart for $17.xx.

You could potentially save a lot of money by doing this.


Also check on line I save almost $100 by ordering online for My Phantoms
methimazole instead of getting from the vet


  #18  
Old April 21st 09, 06:00 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Matthew[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,287
Default When do you "call it a day"?


"Eddy" wrote in message
...
I would like to know various people's views on when one should "call it
a day" when a beloved pet has a very serious illness.

If increasing part of the medication to maximum level will give the
animal good quality of life for a large part of the day though in the
end the side-effects of that large increase in medication will cause
additional complications, do you give the animal that extra good-quality
time and wait until the additional complications set in?

Do you say that it is good that increasing the medication has largely
removed the animal's suffering but while the animal is now in this good
window you should put him to sleep, rather than wait for the next
down-turn?

Or do you say that in spite of the increased medication the animal
remains below par, below normal health, and should therefore be relieved
of life without more ado?

Or what?

We are having a tough time here. One thing is certain. This fine young
cat could have been put to sleep a month ago when it was found he had
"very serious congestive heart failure" but since then, because of the
medication, and increases in his medication, he has enjoyed some very
happy days frolicking around in the sunshine, devouring good food, and
luxuriating in front of the fire.

Eddy.


Eddy this is one of the hardest decision anyone that loves their furballs
need to make. But from my experiences only you can know when it is time.
You could have many more years with your friend or days it is not up to us
till it is time. If the furball is eating, doing his/her daily business,
Playing like a kitten [ ;-) ] and being a cat than it is not time but
when they go down you will know when it is time.

My phantom has hyperthyroidism and is in the beginning of kidney failure.
I can get it taken care of for $1000 permantley for the first part; which
for me the risks or not worth it since he is 15. He takes a pill everyday
to help his situation.

My Rumble is epileptic and is diabetic. In the beginning I thought I might
have to put him down since the medicine was not holding. He was ripping his
face off due to a allergy to a medication. The seizures were knocking him
senseless. Something told me to hang in and maintain hope. He took
medication and insulin shots everyday till a few members like Cybercat, Phil
P., Cheryl, Lynne and Mary L. helped me out and helped me get him regulated.
He has been seizure free for almost 4 years and insulin free for almost 3
years now.

When it is time you will know


  #19  
Old April 21st 09, 06:19 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cindys
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Posts: 592
Default When do you "call it a day"?

On Apr 21, 12:14*pm, wrote:
Eddy,

A suggestion to help with medicine costs: have you checked pricing a
different place? Walmart and Sam's Club generally have cheaper
medications. Ask your vet for a prescription (if he's taking human
medications) and shop around.

A comparison: My vet charged $21 for 20 pills of turbuteline (a
broncho diolater). I was able to get 30 pills at Walmart for $17.xx.

You could potentially save a lot of money by doing this.

------
And for the medications that are not human or are human but only in
much larger doses, try 1-800-PETMEDS.

I get my cats' Tumil-K (potassium supplement) from Pet Meds: 100 pills
for $21 rather than 100 pills for $38 (at my vet). All orders over $39
are shipped for free.

The furosemide 2.5 mg and enalapril (can't remember the dose off the
top of my head) are about half the price the vet charges.

I was paying my vet $8 for 100 gelcaps, which are clear, empty
capsules (I combine the pills in one clear capsule so the cat is
getting one pill rather than four). At the Capsuline website, the
gelcaps were 1000 for $16. I am currently using size 2. IIRC, the
shipping was free from Capsuline as well.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
  #20  
Old April 21st 09, 11:55 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cshenk
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Posts: 2,427
Default When do you "call it a day"?

"Eddy" wrote

Peter, thanks for your advice. Yes, cost is definitely a factor. So
far his vet treatment over the past month has cost us $450.00 (in US
dollars). We are not wealthy. In fact we are living on a shoe-string.
We have swallowed that initial expense and have done the sums and can
just about manage the cost of his monthly medication bill. But we


Eddy, your question is diverse and will show many answers. The reason is
the conditions vary.

Sometimes it's real obvious. I had a senile cat who in the middle of the
night when we were asleep, knock a glass salt shaker off a counter then
later eat glass from her food bowl and not even notice she cut her tounge
til too late. Emergency vet at 5am and that one was 'thank god we had per
put to sleep before there was pain'. (yes, glass in stomach and working
down).

Other times, it's not as clear. I'll go with the folks who also say a
reasonable level of 'how much can you manage and still feed the rest of the
family' is a critical factor. If you know the quality of life for the
beloved pet will decline without the meds, but can't afford them, then you
have to make a hard choice. It's OK to chose your 2 legged kids health if
it's that tight and I think you should. I'm not talking if they can have a
new nintendo game a week but neither are you.

There is sometimes a 3rd option. I adopted a pet who had medical problems
the others couldnt afford to treat. Instead of having him put to sleep, he
lived a long (realtively for his condition) time with me. It's not easy to
find a new home for a pet with medical costs known up front, but it does
happen. It's not a bad thing to put a note out locally and see if something
happens.

I in fact now have 2 'rescue pets' both of which were considered
unadoptable. One for medical and one for behavior. I can afford the
medical and the behavior problem one was pretty easy (single cat, dont add a
second cat as she will not tolerate another, also a few semi-feral issues we
easily deal with).

Good luck Eddy, and to your friend.


 




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