Hill's Feline S/D, Hill's Feline CD-S

"Liz" wrote in message
om...

Another reply! ROFL! Don't you feel like a fool for responding to my posts
after stating several times you would not? Oh, that's right, you'd need a
conscience for that and impulse control - both of which you're fresh out
of...


You are either too dumb

Could be... But that's still saying even less about you're mentality since
I'm constantly catching you in deliberate manipulations, misrepresentations
and misinterpretations... If they aren't deliberate, then your problems are
much more serious than I thought....


or you deliberately misinterpret everything

You're *still* trying to sleaze out getting caught red-handed in a
deliberate manipulation and deliberate misinterpretation of my statement!

Here, I'll draw you a picture... may be you'll see your manipulation a bit
clearer.. although I really doubt it...

I said:

"You **should not**, nor are you qualified to advise a person to take his
cat off of a prescription diet - *especially* a cat that just had a urethral
obstruction removed and probably still has crystals!

I seriously hope Albert *ignores* your *dangerous* and *deadly* advice."

(I was *clearly* referring to your *dangerous* and *deadly* advice of taking
the cat off of the prescription diet after his cat just had a urethral
obstruction removed)


To which you replied:

I seriously hope Albert *ignores* your *dangerous* and *deadly* advice.

Really? I often see you give the exact same advice about more water in
the diet (feed canned) to avoid uroliths

It is *not* "the exact same advice". Although I always recommend canned
diets, I have *never* advised *anyone* to take their cat off of a
prescription diet without consulting a vet as *you did*.

Do you see your deliberate misinterpretation, misrepresentation and
manipulation, now? I'll spell it out for you: You *deliberately*
misrepresented my *routine* advice of feeding a *maintenance* canned food
to reduce the risks of urolithiasis, into taking a cat off of a
prescription
diet that's designed to dissolve *existing* crystals/uroliths. Do you get
the picture now, or do you need color slides?

I can certainly understand why you're no longer "in research"... You can't
cite or quote a statement without manipulating it to suit your purpose and
putting your own spin on them... like you did with my post... and studies...
and the survey...


Why waste time with you?

....because you have nothing else better to do.... At least you're learning
something from someone with a lot more actual experience than you...
Although I don't think your narcissism would allow you to admit that...
After all you do think you know better than ACVIM and ACVN Diplomates and
vets....who after reading a few of your theories think you're a "nut
case"...

Come on, let me see that poor impulse control again! LOL!

In article ,
(GAUBSTER2) wrote:

Not possible, huh? That's fascinating considering that my cat forms both
struvite crystals (sometimes in acid urine) and oxalate crystals
(sometimes in alkaline urine). Should I be taking a daily urine sample
and determining what Hill's Prescription Diet to feed him based on
presence of crystals?

How is one of those foods supposed to "know" which type of crystal your cat
has
and then "fix" it? Unless those foods are causing the problem to begin with?

If your cat has a struvite or oxalate problem then you would want a food that
either alkanized (sp?) or acidified the urinary Ph. No?

This is pretty much the most confusing, tangential post I've ever read
from you, Chris, and that's saying a lot.

My Cat Forms Both Struvite Crystals And Oxalate Crystals. If I feed him
an acidifying, magnesium-restricted, high-sodium diet...ie c/d-s...I
will promote the formation of oxalate crystals. If I feed him an
alkalinizing diet...ie c/d-oxl...I will promote the formation of
struvite crystals without really limiting the formation of oxalate
crystals since my cat has had urinalyses showing oxalate crystals in
alkaline urine.

*Is* a urinalysis the end-all be-all of FLUTD diagnosis? What about
post-prandial alkaline tides, post-collection pH drift, non-diagnostic
crystal formations in cooling urine, contamination from outside the
body, contamination from the collection method...

How on earth do you propose to manage all those variables enough to base
a treatment protocol on the results?

Why are you talking about Hill's Prescription Diet (an inanimate object
in case you weren't aware) "knowing" things; and causing my cat's
urinary problems when, as I've stated, my cat does not use Hill's
Prescription Diet?

If "Hill's is the leader", what does Hill's Prescription Diet have to
offer my cat? My ASYMPTOMATIC cat with NO CURRENT SYMPTOMS of clinical
disease?

You said:

As for IVD and Waltham....it's really not
possible to have a "one size fits all" approach to effectively manage FLUTD.

And I still inquire, since you know about FLUTD management,

What, exactly, is the mechanism of formation of urinary crystals, and
what predisposes a cat to form them?

In particular, what say you to the presence of crystalluria in a
clinically normal cat? Incidental finding or cause for concern and
therapeutic nutrition?

-Alison in OH

In article ,
(GAUBSTER2) wrote:

Not possible, huh? That's fascinating considering that my cat forms both
struvite crystals (sometimes in acid urine) and oxalate crystals
(sometimes in alkaline urine). Should I be taking a daily urine sample
and determining what Hill's Prescription Diet to feed him based on
presence of crystals?

How is one of those foods supposed to "know" which type of crystal your cat
has
and then "fix" it? Unless those foods are causing the problem to begin with?

If your cat has a struvite or oxalate problem then you would want a food that
either alkanized (sp?) or acidified the urinary Ph. No?

This is pretty much the most confusing, tangential post I've ever read
from you, Chris, and that's saying a lot.

My Cat Forms Both Struvite Crystals And Oxalate Crystals. If I feed him
an acidifying, magnesium-restricted, high-sodium diet...ie c/d-s...I
will promote the formation of oxalate crystals. If I feed him an
alkalinizing diet...ie c/d-oxl...I will promote the formation of
struvite crystals without really limiting the formation of oxalate
crystals since my cat has had urinalyses showing oxalate crystals in
alkaline urine.

*Is* a urinalysis the end-all be-all of FLUTD diagnosis? What about
post-prandial alkaline tides, post-collection pH drift, non-diagnostic
crystal formations in cooling urine, contamination from outside the
body, contamination from the collection method...

How on earth do you propose to manage all those variables enough to base
a treatment protocol on the results?

Why are you talking about Hill's Prescription Diet (an inanimate object
in case you weren't aware) "knowing" things; and causing my cat's
urinary problems when, as I've stated, my cat does not use Hill's
Prescription Diet?

If "Hill's is the leader", what does Hill's Prescription Diet have to
offer my cat? My ASYMPTOMATIC cat with NO CURRENT SYMPTOMS of clinical
disease?

You said:

As for IVD and Waltham....it's really not
possible to have a "one size fits all" approach to effectively manage FLUTD.

And I still inquire, since you know about FLUTD management,

What, exactly, is the mechanism of formation of urinary crystals, and
what predisposes a cat to form them?

In particular, what say you to the presence of crystalluria in a
clinically normal cat? Incidental finding or cause for concern and
therapeutic nutrition?

-Alison in OH

This is pretty much the most confusing, tangential post I've ever read
from you, Chris, and that's saying a lot.


Perhaps because FLUTD is one of the most confusing disease conditions there is?

My Cat Forms Both Struvite Crystals And Oxalate Crystals. If I feed him
an acidifying, magnesium-restricted, high-sodium diet...ie c/d-s...I
will promote the formation of oxalate crystals. If I feed him an
alkalinizing diet...ie c/d-oxl...I will promote the formation of
struvite crystals without really limiting the formation of oxalate
crystals since my cat has had urinalyses showing oxalate crystals in
alkaline urine.

But how is a Waltham or an IVD product going to help your particular cat?

*Is* a urinalysis the end-all be-all of FLUTD diagnosis? What about
post-prandial alkaline tides, post-collection pH drift, non-diagnostic
crystal formations in cooling urine, contamination from outside the
body, contamination from the collection method...

Certainly you have to take all of those things (and probably more) into
account!

How on earth do you propose to manage all those variables enough to base
a treatment protocol on the results?

I'm not proposing a treatment protocol for any individual cat. I'm simply
questioning the reasoning used by Waltham and IVD that a "one size fits all"
food can succesfully manage FLUTD. Simple as that.

Why are you talking about Hill's Prescription Diet (an inanimate object
in case you weren't aware) "knowing" things; and causing my cat's
urinary problems when, as I've stated, my cat does not use Hill's
Prescription Diet?

My statement was actually questioning the "one size fits all" diets that are
supposed to effectively manage FLUTD:

How is one of those foods supposed to "know" which type of crystal your cat

has
and then "fix" it? Unless those foods are causing the problem to begin
with?

__________

If "Hill's is the leader", what does Hill's Prescription Diet have to
offer my cat? My ASYMPTOMATIC cat with NO CURRENT SYMPTOMS of clinical
disease?

Which company was the first to come out w/ a struvite diet? Hill's.
Which company was the first to come out w/ an oxalate diet? Hill's.
Which company was the first to come out w/ a diet that dissolves struvite
stones? Hill's. That should effectively back up my statement that "hill's is
the leader...". Hill's isn't the panacea for ALL cats and dogs. But they
aren't the evil satan of theraputic (or wellness) diets either....

What, exactly, is the mechanism of formation of urinary crystals, and
what predisposes a cat to form them?

In particular, what say you to the presence of crystalluria in a
clinically normal cat? Incidental finding or cause for concern and
therapeutic nutrition?

What does your vet say about it? I'm not a veternarian and I wouldn't try to
"solve" a problem over the internet even if I was. That wouldn't be
responsible. FLUTD is an extremely complex disease category, as you know.

If your cat has a struvite or oxalate problem then you would want a food
that
either alkanized (sp?) or acidified the urinary Ph. No?


I didn't get a response from you on this. Certainly diet is one component to
try to effectively manage FLUTD, not the only component.

This is pretty much the most confusing, tangential post I've ever read
from you, Chris, and that's saying a lot.


Perhaps because FLUTD is one of the most confusing disease conditions there is?

My Cat Forms Both Struvite Crystals And Oxalate Crystals. If I feed him
an acidifying, magnesium-restricted, high-sodium diet...ie c/d-s...I
will promote the formation of oxalate crystals. If I feed him an
alkalinizing diet...ie c/d-oxl...I will promote the formation of
struvite crystals without really limiting the formation of oxalate
crystals since my cat has had urinalyses showing oxalate crystals in
alkaline urine.

But how is a Waltham or an IVD product going to help your particular cat?

*Is* a urinalysis the end-all be-all of FLUTD diagnosis? What about
post-prandial alkaline tides, post-collection pH drift, non-diagnostic
crystal formations in cooling urine, contamination from outside the
body, contamination from the collection method...

Certainly you have to take all of those things (and probably more) into
account!

How on earth do you propose to manage all those variables enough to base
a treatment protocol on the results?

I'm not proposing a treatment protocol for any individual cat. I'm simply
questioning the reasoning used by Waltham and IVD that a "one size fits all"
food can succesfully manage FLUTD. Simple as that.

Why are you talking about Hill's Prescription Diet (an inanimate object
in case you weren't aware) "knowing" things; and causing my cat's
urinary problems when, as I've stated, my cat does not use Hill's
Prescription Diet?

My statement was actually questioning the "one size fits all" diets that are
supposed to effectively manage FLUTD:

How is one of those foods supposed to "know" which type of crystal your cat

has
and then "fix" it? Unless those foods are causing the problem to begin
with?

__________

If "Hill's is the leader", what does Hill's Prescription Diet have to
offer my cat? My ASYMPTOMATIC cat with NO CURRENT SYMPTOMS of clinical
disease?

Which company was the first to come out w/ a struvite diet? Hill's.
Which company was the first to come out w/ an oxalate diet? Hill's.
Which company was the first to come out w/ a diet that dissolves struvite
stones? Hill's. That should effectively back up my statement that "hill's is
the leader...". Hill's isn't the panacea for ALL cats and dogs. But they
aren't the evil satan of theraputic (or wellness) diets either....

What, exactly, is the mechanism of formation of urinary crystals, and
what predisposes a cat to form them?

In particular, what say you to the presence of crystalluria in a
clinically normal cat? Incidental finding or cause for concern and
therapeutic nutrition?

What does your vet say about it? I'm not a veternarian and I wouldn't try to
"solve" a problem over the internet even if I was. That wouldn't be
responsible. FLUTD is an extremely complex disease category, as you know.

If your cat has a struvite or oxalate problem then you would want a food
that
either alkanized (sp?) or acidified the urinary Ph. No?


I didn't get a response from you on this. Certainly diet is one component to
try to effectively manage FLUTD, not the only component.

Perhaps because FLUTD is one of the most confusing disease
conditions there is?

For you it must be totally uncomprehensible.

I didn't get a response from you on this. Certainly diet is one component to
try to effectively manage FLUTD, not the only component.

WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER

Mess with pH and ignore the need for water and you get more uroliths.

Sticking to the common uroliths:

Alkaline concentrated urine = struvites
Acidic concentrated urine = calcium oxalate

Dilute urine = NO UROLITHS

Simple, isn´t it?

Perhaps because FLUTD is one of the most confusing disease
conditions there is?

For you it must be totally uncomprehensible.

I didn't get a response from you on this. Certainly diet is one component to
try to effectively manage FLUTD, not the only component.

WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER WATER

Mess with pH and ignore the need for water and you get more uroliths.

Sticking to the common uroliths:

Alkaline concentrated urine = struvites
Acidic concentrated urine = calcium oxalate

Dilute urine = NO UROLITHS

Simple, isn´t it?

I didn't get a response from you on this. Certainly diet is one component to
try to effectively manage FLUTD, not the only component.

You want to understand uroliths? Here´s a little exercise for you.

Go to your kitchen, get a cup and put one inch of water in it. Add a
little bit of salt and stir. You will see the salt disappear. Add more
salt and stir. Repeat until you start seeing some crystals of salt on
the bottom of the cup. This is when you reached the SATURATION POINT
of salt in water. Add just a little more salt just so that you see
those crystals clearly on the bottom. Now add a little bit of water
and stir. Keep adding water in very small amounts and keep stirring.
You will see those crystals disappear.

That´s how simple managing uroliths is. The amount of any salt
(uroliths are salts) you can dissolve in a given amount of water will
vary greatly but the principle is true for nearly all salts.

I didn't get a response from you on this. Certainly diet is one component to
try to effectively manage FLUTD, not the only component.

You want to understand uroliths? Here´s a little exercise for you.

Go to your kitchen, get a cup and put one inch of water in it. Add a
little bit of salt and stir. You will see the salt disappear. Add more
salt and stir. Repeat until you start seeing some crystals of salt on
the bottom of the cup. This is when you reached the SATURATION POINT
of salt in water. Add just a little more salt just so that you see
those crystals clearly on the bottom. Now add a little bit of water
and stir. Keep adding water in very small amounts and keep stirring.
You will see those crystals disappear.

That´s how simple managing uroliths is. The amount of any salt
(uroliths are salts) you can dissolve in a given amount of water will
vary greatly but the principle is true for nearly all salts.

From: (Liz)
Date: 10/22/03 7:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Perhaps because FLUTD is one of the most confusing disease
conditions there is?

For you it must be totally uncomprehensible.


....and you promised never to respone to any of my posts again (and this one
wasn't even directed at you). Goes to show how much of what you say can be
trusted!