Adventurous cat

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham wrote:
Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For
one thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy
dispatching them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy
torturing them.

A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my
home at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony.
I'd be awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes.
The neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.

It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat
- and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to
protect my property.

I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.

My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all
of my life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago from
the same thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point I am
making is that you shouldn't impress your own experience on everyone
else. You are perfectly free to operate accorkinjg to your own
personal experience, and I wouldn't presume to tell you that.
"Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up inside his house is
practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many others like
you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone who lets his
cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his animals. If you
want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of this universe.
He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of
animals every Winter for millions of years now. I would not question
you were you to bitch about Him....:^)


What prompted this thread was that I was mad to find our cat outside
his boundaries. He was on the other side if the block and
was not supposed to be there.

He has been with us for 13 months now but for his 1st 4 months
months of his life he was the colony guard.

We took him in as his colony dispersed. I still want him
a little wild but not to wild.

I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular rounds,
which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After he died,one of
his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to my house and looked all
over for his friend. Then he lay down on the mat where my beloved B-K died
for about ten minutes, and then got up and went home. Had I imprisoned my
cat, he would have never known him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had
I kept him trapped in the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you
would know why I could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and animals.

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:59:53 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free
as a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For
one thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy
dispatching them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy
torturing them.

A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my
home at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony.
I'd be awakened in the middle of the night with resounding
crashes. The neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.

It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her
cat - and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to
protect my property.

I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it
roam.

My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all
of my life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago
from the same thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point
I am making is that you shouldn't impress your own experience on
everyone else. You are perfectly free to operate accorkinjg to
your own personal experience, and I wouldn't presume to tell you
that. "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up inside his
house is practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many
others like you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone
who lets his cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his
animals. If you want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of
this universe.
He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of
animals every Winter for millions of years now. I would not
question you were you to bitch about Him....:^)

I can't force you to keep yout cat indoors, but the police can if
your cat destroys my property- unless you want to get rid of it. I
can also do whatever I need to if your cat trespasses onto my
property. Having said that, I am a cat lover, but there are plenty
of cat haters in the world.

Look at the millions of people God starves everyday.

"Every night and every morn
Some to misery are born.
Every morn and every night
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night."
- William Blake

I find it hard to believe that any cat can, "Destroy property". We
are talking about pet kitty's here, and not lions. None of my
neighbors, (many of whom have their own cats) have ever told me that
they had any problems with any of my cats. I*n fact. I had one that
loved to sneak into their houses whenever he found one of their
windows open four inches or more. He would turn up at dinnertime
waiting for a handout.... Even the neighbor who was allergic to cats
loved him....
I am sorry thsat you have such neighbors, that value some flowers
more than a friendly cat.

I already told you what the cat did. I have potted plants on my
balcony. The balcony in one story above the ground. There are steps
leading to the balcony. The cat would go up the steps and push the
plants off the ledge onto the path below. The cat did this about a
half-dozen times, and I saw it running away on a couple of occasions.
No doubt what happened.

I told the neighbor about it several times, then finally I called the
police who came out to the house and told the neighbor she would have
to keep her cat on her own property or suffer the consequences.

Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots down, or
fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from moving them. Cats
aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for human beings. If the pots
couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat would have left them alone. Here, you
can't force anyone to keep a cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live
in heavily congested cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do
would do this to a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it
pleases....

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
this is just what I quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
"cruelty".

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?

Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
first.

Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
the words to you.

In article ,
Bill Graham wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with
pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange,
roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes,
predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other
cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on; this is just what I
quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats don't
have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity may be too
high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it "cruelty".


The reason why I said time for a harness is that those diseases
are a case of point well taken. Our cat should
get the privilege of the yard and no further.
If he wants to go beyond that then he has to be on a harness.
--
Member - Liberal International This is Ici
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
USA petition to dissolve the Republic and vote to disoolve it in November 2012

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:40:16 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

....
Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots down, or
fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from moving them. Cats
aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for human beings. If the pots
couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat would have left them alone. Here, you
can't force anyone to keep a cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live
in heavily congested cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do
would do this to a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it
pleases....

My recently departed best cat Espy used to love knocking things off of
shelves. In the middle of the night I'd hear something smash and I
knew that I left something too close to the edge. If he was an outdoor
cat, I can see him pushing pots off the edge. I think he just liked
watching stuff go down and BANG.

Roving cats can cause problems with neighbors. Sure, you can nail down
the pots or otherwise make it difficult to move them, but that's only
part of it. Cats pee and poop, and that isn't pleasant for the
neighbors. One of our stray cats likes to poop where my neighbor
planted onions and garlic. Now I know cats aren't supposed to eat
either of those, but she liked to poop there.

Not good, both because she would uproot them while trying to cover the
poop and because you really don't want your food covered with cat
poop. At least she liked to cover her poop; one of the other cats just
poops and leaves it.

I actually turn over some soil on my property weekly just so the cats
have somewhere fresh to do their things. That seems to have solved the
onion problem, as does the ending of summer, but it is a legitimate
concern that people have about free roaming cats.

At least TNRd cats don't have really smelly urine. Unneutered cat ****
can really be pungent. I don't think folks complaining about that are
being unreasonable.

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:25:46 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham wrote:
Mack A. Damia wrote:
---

I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular rounds,
which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After he died,one of
his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to my house and looked all
over for his friend. Then he lay down on the mat where my beloved B-K died
for about ten minutes, and then got up and went home. Had I imprisoned my
cat, he would have never known him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had
I kept him trapped in the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you
would know why I could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and animals.

One of my neighbors had six cats. Five stayed inside, or maybe came
oustide and sat around the steps while the neighbor stayed with them.
But one was allowed to roam, and he died a few months back, hit by a
car. We miss him terribly, and he would be alive if forced to stay
inside, but he insisted on going out. That's where he came from and
that's where he wanted to go.

Sure they could have forced him to stay inside, but he was not happy
that way. The others know the outside and prefer to stay in. He was
just different and it would have been cruel to keep him in. So he's
dead, but we all die, and he got to enjoy his life and die without
suffering.

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
this is just what I quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
"cruelty".

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?

Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
first.

Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
the words to you.

Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.

Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
my knowledge, been taken.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:22:19 -0400, dgk wrote:

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
this is just what I quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
"cruelty".

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?

Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
first.

Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
the words to you.

Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.

Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
my knowledge, been taken.

What strikes me is Bill's insistence that I'm a liberal asshole who
knows everything. Let me tell you - the more I know, the more I don't
know.

I have no control over the millions of cat owners in the world, but my
"own" opinion is that letting a cat roam is animal cruelty. It has
nothing to do whatsoever with political affiliation - except I do
think Romney is a pussy. Look at the way he walks.
--

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:36:54 -0700, Mack A. Damia
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:22:19 -0400, dgk wrote:

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
this is just what I quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
"cruelty".

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?

Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
first.

Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
the words to you.

Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.

Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
my knowledge, been taken.

What strikes me is Bill's insistence that I'm a liberal asshole who
knows everything. Let me tell you - the more I know, the more I don't
know.

I try not to buttonhole people into commie or fascist. Most of us want
to better the world and the people in it. We have different ideas how
to do it. I am about as far left as they come, but that doesn't mean
that I think that I'm right on every issue or cannot learn. As you
said, the more I know, the more I don't know.

The problem is that communism doesn't work because some people are too
needy, and capitalism doesn't work because some people are too greedy.
Something in the middle seems best.. No one wants to work hard and
give their money to people who just don't want to work. On the other
hand, I don't want to fund a military that exists to expand the power
of the 1% that really rules the country but pretends to be about
keeping us "safe".

I have no control over the millions of cat owners in the world, but my
"own" opinion is that letting a cat roam is animal cruelty. It has
nothing to do whatsoever with political affiliation - except I do
think Romney is a pussy. Look at the way he walks.

It depends on the situation. In the city, there are many ways a cat
can die a painful death but lots of cats live pretty long lives
outside. There is also a numbers game. I can take in three or four
cats, but the rest live outside because there is just no one willing
to take them in. So I can make a difference to one or two but we try
the best we can to take care of the outside kittys.

Right now I'm debating what to do about Baby. She was born in a box
outside my front door and has lived all her life in the street near my
house. She's the one who pooped in my neighbor's onion plants
mentioned in another post. Well, Espy died last month so theoretically
I have an opening for another cat. Baby is a delightful cat, friendly,
small, with a nice personality as far as I can tell.

She also is very good at living outside and seems to love it. She runs
around, right up trees, and kills a bird once in a while. She rolls in
the dirt. She lets me pet her and even pick her up.. I had her TNRd
years when she was 5 months old.

So do I take her in? Winter is coming but she made it through a few
already, partly because I built her a styrofoam home with a heated
interior.

She seems to love it outside. She runs up to block when she seems me
coming right onto my stoop to be fed. She runs into my driveway, under
the bushes, up the tree. Then I go inside and my cats are lying on the
couch. Just lying there. Or upstairs, on a perch by the windows
looking out. Just lying there.

So who has the better of the deal? My indoor cats, safe but not very
stimulated even though I play the laser game and all kinds of toys. Or
Baby, who pounces on real critters or climbs real trees or runs to
greet me or one of the other neighbors.

Yes, she has a decent chance of being run over by a car. It happens.
But I think she really liikes it outside. Will she like it inside?
Maybe. Her likely daddy is Scooter, who moved in with me. Sort of a
family reunion then.

My cats actually do get to go out in my backyard, which I have fenced
in so they stay pretty safe. Still, I have to decide what to do about
Baby.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:39:37 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

In article ,
Bill Graham wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with
pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange,
roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes,
predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other
cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on; this is just what I
quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats don't
have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity may be too
high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it "cruelty".


The reason why I said time for a harness is that those diseases
are a case of point well taken. Our cat should
get the privilege of the yard and no further.
If he wants to go beyond that then he has to be on a harness.

CatFenceIn, or something like that. My little backyard is fenced in so
they can't get out. And they wear collars with Loc8tor tags on them so
I can track them if they do, or even in the house.