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  #51  
Old February 14th 04, 05:10 AM
Kalyahna
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"Cat Protector" wrote in message
news:PtYWb.41172$L_4.25962@okepread01...
Come on Kalyahna, everything you have said has supported euthanasia as a
means to save space. I am against it so you aren't going to change my

mind.
As for declawing you say that it doesn't deserve a response so one can
gather you support it and just don't want to say so publically. I am

against
it myself.


We can agree to disagree on euthanasia, CP, unless you start claiming again
that no-kill workers care more and work harder than those who work for
shelters that euthanise.

As for declawing? I left it out for the same reason as Fan did. It has no
relevance to the discussion of euthanasia. Still, you gathered wrong. If you
read posts beyond those in which you participate, you'd have learned months
ago that I've become emphatically anti-declaw.


  #52  
Old February 14th 04, 05:19 AM
Cat Protector
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You have yet to meet my cat Isis. She knows how to open doors or I'd foster
the special needs cats.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Kalyahna" wrote in message
...

Special needs: epileptic, diabetic, early stage renal disease, early stage
hepatic lipidosis, FIV+, FeLV+, ringworm+, IBD, semi-feral (only in need

of
socialization, really)... though half a dozen other personality or
behavioral issues could likely qualify for 'special needs.'

If you have a bathroom or a bedroom with a secure door, CP, then you have
the capability to foster FIV or FeLV+ cats, along with any other special
needs animal. I'm sure you're quite aware that neither disease is passed

by
one cat breathing in another cat's direction.
I have a pair of brown tabbies in my bathroom, for example. One of them

has
an ulcerated eye and would, at the shelter, literally lie in her own urine
out of fear. She wouldn't eat unless food and water were put directly in
front of her. In my bathroom, I can hear her brother playing with a
jingle-toy, and she came out to use her litterbox and then get attention
during only her second day. This weekend, they're getting moved into the
bedroom so that I can take two semi-feral kittens with URI that will need
medication at least twice daily plus very necessary socialization. I

didn't
like the idea of a cat peeing all over my bathroom, but I gave her a

second
chance, and she'll get adopted if I have to keep her in foster care until
someone expresses interest or she can get an office or a place at a
satellite multiple cat center. If she had continued to lie in her own

urine
and never move and never eat, she would have been euthanised. It wouldn't
have been for any physical illness, but for the mental deterioration.

As for spay/neuter and the whole overpopulation program there are still
going to be people out there who fail to get the message. But I think

the
key to winning the battle is through constant education. I know on the
adoption end at some shelters you can't adopt a cat unless they are

spayed
or neutered. When I adopted my cat Isis they would not allow me to take

her
home until this was done.


ALL of our animals are altered before they go home. This includes rabbits,
and some of the local vet students are also neutering rats for us. We

offer
decreased redemption fees (or in some cases, waive the fees altogether) if
the owner will allow us to alter their pet if they cannot afford the
redemption fee on its own. It's been suggested that when people give up
litters of kittens, we offer to spay the mother and waive the surrender

fee.
It -does- all come down to education, but how much educating is getting

done
when it's just arguing back and forth and there's never any agreement?




  #53  
Old February 14th 04, 06:26 PM
Fan
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:19:03 -0700, "Cat Protector"
wrote:

You have yet to meet my cat Isis. She knows how to open doors or I'd foster
the special needs cats.


I hesitate to interject in this, lest I be accused of trying to hasle
you, but....

For under $100, you can have a "handyman" install childproof locks on
every door in your house. For a LOT less, you can do it yourself.
I've seen your web site, you are a resourcefull person and I'm certain
you could handle this task. That is a compliment.


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  #54  
Old February 14th 04, 07:08 PM
Fan
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:29:15 -0700, "Cat Protector"
wrote:

Why do you persist?


Because I thought that if I pointed out to you, that your incorrect
statements were insulting to some very caring people, that you would
be man enough to say that those statements were not what you meant. I
was wrong that you would do this. I'm sorry that I wasted so much time
trying to help you see how untrue and nasty that was. You choose to
state untruths and that is why I persisted. That was a waste of time.

I stated my case and my position yet you still feel you
need to badger me.

Badger? I believe that I gave you information that you could have used
to rethink your hurtfull statements. Instead, you kept trying to
interject other issues to cloud the original one when it had not been
resolved.

Time and time again I gave the facts but you didn't seem
to be getting it.

No, you gave your thoughts and opinions, not the facts. For example,
you have continually stated that people who work on no-kill shelters
are above those who work in other shelters. That is NOT fact, I have
actually seen it and you have not. Also, you keep stating that ALL
animals can be rehabilitated, no matter what. When I gave examples on
ones that probably were not practical to rehibilitate, you either
refused to reply or changed the subject.

I have given the facts of my position stated several times
where I was involved in rescue and even gave some examples of my position
especially in regards to euthanasia.

Right!, like the one that says you would be so happy to foster sick
cats, but your cat can open doors. (Note: That was done in another
post.) I just replied to that one by saying that for an extremely
small amount of money, you can "cat proof" and "child proof" all your
doors. Your statement is just a flimsy excuse to not "put your money
where your mouth is."

I do understand that you say you are against euthanasia yet you
repeatedly refused to answer the question about what to do with an
animal that is dying a painfull death and it can not be saved.

You kept saying that ALL animals can be rehibilitated, no matter what
their problem is. When I gave you examples of ones that many shelters
will not deal with, you AGAIN failed to reply.

I will not retract what I have said
simply because you insist I should. I answered all of your questions so why
not drop this matter and move on?


I have never asked you to retract what you said because I "want" you
to. I have asked you to retract the statements that are both untrue
and hurtfull to some fine and dedicated people. That is, was, and
always has been my goal. Other discussions were because you tried to
muddy the waters and justify your statments.

It is time to end this discussion. I stand my my position that you are
refusing to answer several questions. One has just to re-read the
posts between you and I to see that your refusal to answer is
consistant. I have refused to answer only the statements that you
designed to rally people against me by getting personal. My last post
pointed out more than one question that you have never answered.

You have refused to reply to my repeated offer to help develop a
program for getting special needs animals to those people that you
insist you know can rehabilitate them. If you really cared about those
animals, you would have jumped at the chance to actually save them
instead of simply talking about it.

You have refused to reply to my repeated question of what we can do
when we are out of room at our shelter, foster program, other area
shelters, etc. These are real life issues, not just the theory that
you seem to be saying.

I thought you would be honest enough to answer those, but your only
reply is to keep saying that you have answered them. You have not and
I will not waste bandwidth on a person who keeps saying he did
something, but it isn't there to see. I expected much more from you.

I only asked you to retract the hurtfull things that you said about
people who work in shelters where they admit to euthanasia. That is
really the jist of my arguements. You have repeatedly stated that
those at no-kills are more caring than the people at other private
shelters. I have also said that you imply that private regular
shelters do not have foster and volunteer programs. That is quite
simply and plainly an out and out lie when it comes to most private
shelters. You have repeatedly failed to even reply to that issue.

I have no respect for a person who misleads people by telling such
lies. I have tried to keep my posts to you respectfull, honest, and on
the issue we were discussing. I have tried not to get personal, but
this post is an exception to that. You have not reciprocated and I
will no longer continue this because of that fact.


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  #55  
Old February 14th 04, 10:23 PM
Cat Protector
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I am not going to apologize for stating facts that you don't want to hear.
I'd just suggest you just drop it and move on. It is pointless to beat a
dead horse simply because you insist on forcing someone to share your views.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
Fan wrote in message ...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:29:15 -0700, "Cat Protector"
wrote:

Why do you persist?


Because I thought that if I pointed out to you, that your incorrect
statements were insulting to some very caring people, that you would
be man enough to say that those statements were not what you meant. I
was wrong that you would do this. I'm sorry that I wasted so much time
trying to help you see how untrue and nasty that was. You choose to
state untruths and that is why I persisted. That was a waste of time.

I stated my case and my position yet you still feel you
need to badger me.

Badger? I believe that I gave you information that you could have used
to rethink your hurtfull statements. Instead, you kept trying to
interject other issues to cloud the original one when it had not been
resolved.

Time and time again I gave the facts but you didn't seem
to be getting it.

No, you gave your thoughts and opinions, not the facts. For example,
you have continually stated that people who work on no-kill shelters
are above those who work in other shelters. That is NOT fact, I have
actually seen it and you have not. Also, you keep stating that ALL
animals can be rehabilitated, no matter what. When I gave examples on
ones that probably were not practical to rehibilitate, you either
refused to reply or changed the subject.

I have given the facts of my position stated several times
where I was involved in rescue and even gave some examples of my position


especially in regards to euthanasia.

Right!, like the one that says you would be so happy to foster sick
cats, but your cat can open doors. (Note: That was done in another
post.) I just replied to that one by saying that for an extremely
small amount of money, you can "cat proof" and "child proof" all your
doors. Your statement is just a flimsy excuse to not "put your money
where your mouth is."

I do understand that you say you are against euthanasia yet you
repeatedly refused to answer the question about what to do with an
animal that is dying a painfull death and it can not be saved.

You kept saying that ALL animals can be rehibilitated, no matter what
their problem is. When I gave you examples of ones that many shelters
will not deal with, you AGAIN failed to reply.

I will not retract what I have said
simply because you insist I should. I answered all of your questions so

why
not drop this matter and move on?


I have never asked you to retract what you said because I "want" you
to. I have asked you to retract the statements that are both untrue
and hurtfull to some fine and dedicated people. That is, was, and
always has been my goal. Other discussions were because you tried to
muddy the waters and justify your statments.

It is time to end this discussion. I stand my my position that you are
refusing to answer several questions. One has just to re-read the
posts between you and I to see that your refusal to answer is
consistant. I have refused to answer only the statements that you
designed to rally people against me by getting personal. My last post
pointed out more than one question that you have never answered.

You have refused to reply to my repeated offer to help develop a
program for getting special needs animals to those people that you
insist you know can rehabilitate them. If you really cared about those
animals, you would have jumped at the chance to actually save them
instead of simply talking about it.

You have refused to reply to my repeated question of what we can do
when we are out of room at our shelter, foster program, other area
shelters, etc. These are real life issues, not just the theory that
you seem to be saying.

I thought you would be honest enough to answer those, but your only
reply is to keep saying that you have answered them. You have not and
I will not waste bandwidth on a person who keeps saying he did
something, but it isn't there to see. I expected much more from you.

I only asked you to retract the hurtfull things that you said about
people who work in shelters where they admit to euthanasia. That is
really the jist of my arguements. You have repeatedly stated that
those at no-kills are more caring than the people at other private
shelters. I have also said that you imply that private regular
shelters do not have foster and volunteer programs. That is quite
simply and plainly an out and out lie when it comes to most private
shelters. You have repeatedly failed to even reply to that issue.

I have no respect for a person who misleads people by telling such
lies. I have tried to keep my posts to you respectfull, honest, and on
the issue we were discussing. I have tried not to get personal, but
this post is an exception to that. You have not reciprocated and I
will no longer continue this because of that fact.


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  #56  
Old February 14th 04, 10:24 PM
Cat Protector
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Did you ever stop to think I might live in an apartment? You have to get
special permission for changes like that.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
Fan wrote in message ...

I hesitate to interject in this, lest I be accused of trying to hasle
you, but....

For under $100, you can have a "handyman" install childproof locks on
every door in your house. For a LOT less, you can do it yourself.
I've seen your web site, you are a resourcefull person and I'm certain
you could handle this task. That is a compliment.


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet

News==----
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Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption

=---


  #57  
Old February 15th 04, 12:16 AM
Cheryl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Fan wrote in on 13 Feb
2004:

Lets ask the others in this group...How many of you think that a
person who works in a shelter that sometimes euthanizes is
automatically less caring than one who works in a "no-kill" shelter?


Absolutely not. I know some at our local animal control and they go the
extra distance with most of the time no reward, but I think this whole
argument is silly. First, you are arguing with CP. He doesn't comprehend
things very well. I think he is "challenged". The other thought is that
he just doesn't express what he really wants to say very well. The second
reason I don't care to get involved in an argument like this one is because
the only real solution to overpopulation is mandatory neutering. But until
that happens, there will always be healthy adoptable animals put to death
for no fault of their own other than being born. It's not a pretty fact
and I think CP just can't comprehend the real world and the sadness in it.

That said, I am reading this because I feel for you and for Kalyahna, and
everyone who does what you do and faces what you have to face each day.
It's never enough and that is the sad fact.



--
Cheryl

Trapped like rats. In a chia-pet.
MIB II
  #58  
Old February 15th 04, 05:02 AM
Fan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 14:24:27 -0700, "Cat Protector"
wrote:


Did you ever stop to think I might live in an apartment? You have to get
special permission for changes like that.


My suggestion was simply in case you had not considered that option.
Many people would not have thought of it. I don't think your hostle
response was appropriate. Even though you and I have a strong
disagreement on another thread, I was trying to be nice.

Just curious...DO you live in an apartment and if so, has the
apartment manager refused to let you put childproofing on the doors?
Also, there is childproofing that can be done without any permanent
modification of the door so no manager is going to deny that type of
device.


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  #59  
Old February 15th 04, 05:06 AM
Fan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 14:23:14 -0700, "Cat Protector"
wrote:

I am not going to apologize for stating facts that you don't want to hear.
I'd just suggest you just drop it and move on. It is pointless to beat a
dead horse simply because you insist on forcing someone to share your views.


I simply ask anyone to read my posts, especially the last one. That
clearly states why this statement of yours is not even close to the
truth.


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  #60  
Old February 15th 04, 05:13 AM
Fan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:16:46 -0600, Cheryl
wrote:

Fan wrote in on 13 Feb
2004:

Lets ask the others in this group...How many of you think that a
person who works in a shelter that sometimes euthanizes is
automatically less caring than one who works in a "no-kill" shelter?


Absolutely not. I know some at our local animal control and they go the
extra distance with most of the time no reward, but I think this whole
argument is silly. First, you are arguing with CP. He doesn't comprehend
things very well. I think he is "challenged". The other thought is that
he just doesn't express what he really wants to say very well. The second
reason I don't care to get involved in an argument like this one is because
the only real solution to overpopulation is mandatory neutering. But until
that happens, there will always be healthy adoptable animals put to death
for no fault of their own other than being born. It's not a pretty fact
and I think CP just can't comprehend the real world and the sadness in it.

That said, I am reading this because I feel for you and for Kalyahna, and
everyone who does what you do and faces what you have to face each day.
It's never enough and that is the sad fact.


Thank you for your opinion. I happen to agree with you, but I would
also have appreciated even if I did not.

Another thing that helps is to volunteer at a shelter. There are
helpful tasks that ANYONE can do. We have people of all ages, all
skills and several disabilities who all are valuable to us. For
example, if you are bedridden, you can still make phone calls to
followup on adoptions.


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