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#71
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kitkat wrote: Diane L. Schirf wrote: In article , kitkat wrote: And I teach in the suburbs of...LIBERAL CHICAGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Chicago is generally pretty moderate/liberal, but Chicago's 'burbs are to various degrees moderate/conservative. IMO, the stuff gaubster is talking about (i.e. taking the constitution out of education) is not really happening in too many places. Plus, I've been living in the North Shore of chicago for most of my life and it is pretty liberal here, compared to say, Central Illinois (where I went to school for 6 years). U of I? -L. |
#72
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-L. wrote:
kitkat wrote: Diane L. Schirf wrote: In article , kitkat wrote: And I teach in the suburbs of...LIBERAL CHICAGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Chicago is generally pretty moderate/liberal, but Chicago's 'burbs are to various degrees moderate/conservative. IMO, the stuff gaubster is talking about (i.e. taking the constitution out of education) is not really happening in too many places. Plus, I've been living in the North Shore of chicago for most of my life and it is pretty liberal here, compared to say, Central Illinois (where I went to school for 6 years). U of I? -L. Yep, U of I for my undergrand and then ISU for my grad work. |
#73
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kitkat wrote: U of I? -L. Yep, U of I for my undergrand and then ISU for my grad work. Ah ha! I grew up in IL - Kankakee. Armpit of the Midwest. I also lived in Champaign and my bro went to U of I and ISU too. -L. |
#74
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kitkat wrote: gaubster2 wrote: So, do you think sex education belongs in school? I don't. That falls under the parameters of the home environment. And don't give me this nonsense about some parents won't talk about this w/ their kids. I can make the same argument about religion in school. Condoms on cucumbers and bananas DO NOT belong in school. Well, first of all, when the students are of the age where they may be having sex (middle school on up) I *do* believe that sex education has its place and it falls nicely under the category of HEALTH. And since there is a special place called RELIGIOUS SCHOOL for those who want to learn all about religion...that is nicely covered THERE. Plus, Gaubster, if you are simply talking about learning ABOUT religion...well then I agree that it should be taught in schools. However, being told what religion to PRACTICE does not. The overwhelmingly vast majority of students that are having sex is not in middle school. It's *much* older. Birth control does not fall under the parameters of HEALTH. Demonstrating how to utilize birth control doesn't either. And yes, I'm talking about learning ABOUT religion. I'm not talking about FORCING "group" prayer or telling kids that it "is now time to start praying". The conversation here has gone in that direction, but I don't condone that. I'm discussing the fact that the left wants to turn our government school system into a secular place where there is no mention of God or religion (especially Christianity), although learning all about and basing lesson plans on practicing certain tenets of Islam seems to be ok. Again, you are pointing to extreme religious zealots. I don't believe in killing abortion doctors. There are extremeists on each side. I don't condone either one. I was merely pointing out where people break laws to justify their bad behavior...who just so happen to be...GASP...CHRISTIAN!!!! The run-of-the-mill everyday citizen who believes in Christianity is not going around commiting horrible felonies. That's picture that is being attempted to be painted, but it's certainly not true. Nobody is saying FORCE religion on kids in school. If you stop your day to have some sort of organized prayer..it IS forced. Who's advocating for that? Not me. I agree that you should send your children to a religious school if that is what is important. However, what is happening is that the government school system is bending over backwards to take ALL mention of GOD of religion (except Islam) OUT of school. There is a healthy balance that can be struck, but that is NOT what is currently happening. How about the Cupertino school district that doesn't want the Declaration of Independence taught because it mentions a Creator?? Well fortunately that is not happening anywhere that I know of around where I teach. And I teach in the suburbs of...LIBERAL CHICAGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And frankly, what you are discussing really has nothing to do with the notion of prayer in school. You keep asking what harm it would do...as if you need some kid to come in with a broken arm and say "THIS IS BECAUSE WE PRAYED IN SCHOOL TODAY". The harm that organized prayer would cause does not have to be clear cut. As a matter of fact, you have a POINT in that it is not necessarily harmful...however it is NOT NECESSARY. I still maintain that if a kid wants to pray in school...there isn't anything to stop him or her...unless he or she requests that everyone stop and acknowledge what he or she is doing. Agreed. Finally, in an IDEAL world...parents would teach their kids both about religion and sex/reproduction/etc...in the HOME. But that is not what is happening. However, society stands to lose a lot more (IMO) if our kids are uneducated about sex than if they are uneducated about Jesus and his disciples. again, just my opinion. You can call me a wackjob or a liberal nutcase. (I'm not...but whatev) But I do think that *organized* prayer should stay out of school and sex ed with teenagers should be addressed. Pam Pam, I don't think you're a nutcase. We simply disagree on the sex ed in schools issue. That is definitely something that should be covered AT HOME, just as one should practice their religion AT HOME (on private time). |
#75
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kitkat wrote: gaubster2 wrote: Diane L. Schirf wrote: In article .com, "-L." wrote: Why impose prayer on everyone? Prayer should come from the heart, not be imposed. Again, who is imposing prayer again? Again, if we stop our kids in the middle of their geometry lesson for prayers, it is being imposed upon them. Again. Again, Kitkat, WHO IS DOING THAT??? Nobody is doing that. You're arguing a false premise. |
#76
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Cat Protector wrote: You have inferred that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is stupid as well as other choice putdowns. You are the one who is judging others so stop trying to play the victim. You seem to do nothing but talk down to others. I guess you are doing your best to get the group's Assclown Award. You're selectively remembering here. I don't talk down to others (well, I do to Lauren, but she reaps what she sows!), but since you worked in a Chris Jericho reference, I'll forgive you! |
#77
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Cat Protector wrote: I definately think they should have sex education in schools and also have the parent's teach their kids as well. The problem in this country is that a lot of parent's seem to want to avoid the topic and their kids end up having sex without the education they need to make the right choices. As a result of the parent's lack of attention to the matter we have plenty of teenage pregnancy's and of course the chance of getting a sexually transmitted disease. The problem in this country is that everywhere you go, you're being told to have sex and that you can do so w/o consequences. Ever stood in the checkout line of your local grocery store? Just look at the numerous magazines that are shouting out SEX to anyone and everyone within arm's distance (including our kids and teens). That's not to mention the sexually suggestive ads on billboards, from tv, etc. The problem is not that our teens (and younger) are learning about the mechanics of sex, but that they are not being taught about the very real consequences--first of which is pregnancy, then STDs, then AIDS, not to mention that the vast majority of our youngters aren't prepared mentally. I would suggest that since just about every governement high school in America hands out free birth control to our kids (sending the message that you're expected to do this, so here, use this as a tool), that the standard is set very low and people will achieve what you expect out of them. The bottom line is that teaching "sex ed" in schools in not only unneccesary it is harmful as well. I have no problem with the teaching the basics of the reproductive system, and STDs as part of health, but when you go further than that, it becomes something that has no place in our public school system--just as you feel that religion has no place in our public school system. As for your claiming nobody is trying to force religion on kids in school, it seems that by your posts that you feel their needs to be prayer in school which of course leads to that. Of course Gaubster nobody can really tell you that without getting picked on. Oh, if only I had that power--if I "feel" that something needs to happen, then it does! Don't be so thin-skinned. I'm not picking on you, I'm simply debating you. You haven't been able to show any harm in a student "praying" at school, AND IN FACT....nobody has been able to show where in the Constitiution it says that we should even have a government school system, let alone whether prayer or mention of religion is disallowed, etc. There is a lot of opinion being thrown around here and that's about it! |
#78
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KellyH wrote: Unfortunately, "under God" is still in the Pledge. It was only added in the 1950's, you know. I wish it would be taken out. I don't feel like this nation should be "under God" unless the gov't is a theocracy. Kelly, what HARM is there in that?? You sound as if you are one of the extremeists in this country that an absolute abolition of *any* religious reference of *any* kind, anywhere. There is no harm in saying the pledge "under God" unless you are an atheist who wants to force your way of life on everyone else. Again, the majority of this country are Christians, and you are in a very small minority. Why force your minority beliefs on the public at large? Hmm? I'm living a successful life without a higher power known as God, thank you very much. I do believe in some type of supernatural power we can't explain, but I don't believe in naming it or feel it necessary to belong to a particular religion. Please, don't feel you need to "educate" me either. I went to a fundamentalist Christian middle and high school and probably know more about church history than the average person. I fell for it while I was an impressionable youth, but once I really started to learn about Christianity, I decided that it was not for me. Oh boy, yeah, you sure sound happy. Nobody here is trying to "educate" you. Why are you so paranoid? Since you have rebelled against your upbrining, what exactly is it about Christianity that you "aren't falling for" any longer? Is there something that the rest of need to know? |
#79
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"gaubster2" wrote in message
oups.com... Kelly, what HARM is there in that?? You sound as if you are one of the extremeists in this country that an absolute abolition of *any* religious reference of *any* kind, anywhere. There is no harm in saying the pledge "under God" unless you are an atheist who wants to force your way of life on everyone else. Again, the majority of this country are Christians, and you are in a very small minority. Why force your minority beliefs on the public at large? Hmm? I'm not forcing my beliefs on anybody. BTW - I'm an Agnostic, not an Atheist. It doesn't matter if the phrase "under God" harms anyone or not, it doesn't belong there. Last time I checked, this is not a theocracy. Just because Christians are the majority, doesn't mean they get to make the rules for everyone. Oh boy, yeah, you sure sound happy. Nobody here is trying to "educate" you. Why are you so paranoid? Since you have rebelled against your upbrining, what exactly is it about Christianity that you "aren't falling for" any longer? Is there something that the rest of need to know? I'm a lot happier now that I don't have the threat of going to hell hanging over me. Just a few examples of some of the things I'm "not falling for" any longer: the universe was created in 7 days, if you don't accept Jesus into your heart, you're going to hell, even if you are an upstanding citizen, but happen to be a Jew, Muslim, Atheist, etc., all the numerous inconsistencies in the Bible, that homosexuality is a sin, need I go on? -- -Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG |
#80
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-L. wrote: gaubster2 wrote: Nobody is pushing any agenda. I don't care who sleeps with whom. Oh really? Then why did the "sisters of multnomah" go against state law and not consult with the other member of the board and decide to "legalize" gay marriage? I don't know you would have to ask them. That's exactly it. I CAN'T ASK THEM BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT/HAVE NOT OPENED THE SUBJECT UP TO DEBATE. This is a perfect example of somebody pushing their homosexual agenda on the public. That is an agenda that is PUSHED onto the ciitizens at large. It was never put to a public vote and why was that? Because it would've gone down in flames! IIRC when "gay marriage" did go to vote in OR, it wasn't that big of a margin for loss. Well, at the time I finally went to bed on election day, that is. The score at halftime is not what matters, only the score at the end of the game. Karl Rove made sure the "gay marriage" issue was put on the ballots in order to bring out a "certain" type of voter in support of his candidate. He succeeded. Oh boy! What is w/ the paranoia in the anti-religion crowd?? You're giving the man waaay too much credit and I've got news for you. He has nothing to do individual state's issues. You've got bigger problems if you think everything is a big conspiracy theory! The concept that marriage can be 2 people of the same-sex was voted down in 12 states out of 12 states. Does that offend you? Doesn't ofend me. It makes me sad. It shows we are a nation of bigots. It shows that we have values. Homsexual people have the same right as anybody else to get married....just not to members of the same sex. There is no bigotry here, just your warped impression of what is right and wrong. What exactly is a "homosexual agend" anyway? Are you afraid someone might try to "make" you gay or something? See above! You don't like prayer being "pushed" on kids, I don't like perversion being displayed for my child to see. I'm sorry you see two people who love each other as "perversion". That's a really sad ideology, IMO. You know, in the '40's and '50's my husband and I would have been prohibited from marrying as well - interracial marriage was banned and labeled "perverse" by many. My sister is 15 years younger than me. What if we were madly in love....should be allowed to get married (and we are of the opposite sex)?? What about people that "shack up"? The point is: If 2 people want to "hook up", fine, but don't call it marriage. snip For whatever reason, the left likes to discriminate against Christianity, but not any other religion. Nope. Christianity is the only religion that steadfastly tries to change federal law into religious (biblical) law. the Jews don't dso it, the Muslims don't do it, the Buddhists don't do it, the Hindus don't do it, etc. etc...If any one of the other religions tried to do the same, I would be against them doing so, as well. Not true. How about in middle east where you HAVE to practice Islam? We are talking about the US, dear. US politics. Christians are the only ones trying to turn this government into a theocracy. Proof please. The majority of this country is Christian, yet we don't have a state-mandated religion (the 1st Amendment in action!). Federal law is based on biblical law. Nope. Federal law is based on morals and ethics. Really? I'll bet that you think its morally right as well as ethical to murder millions of unborn babies a year? How about let criminals out of jail before they finish serving their sentences? I could go on and on. Murder is not allowed in this country. Ever heard of, "Thou shalt not murder"? Lieing is prosecuted in certain circumstances...."Thou shalt not lie". See what I mean? I didn't know that Christians had a monolpoly on morality. Silly me, I thought all religions espoused morality. Not to mention those of us who have moral values because of culture, upbringing, etc. Sorry, but I don't think you and your Fundie friends can take all the credit for developing morals in this country, Gauby. I am SO NOT a fundamentalist. That's been apparent from my posts here and I don't live my life as a fundamentalist ANYTHING! But since you think that Karl Rove is the puppetmaster in various states and that the black helicopters are circling overhead, whatever! It's been fun, Gauby, but I have to go. My kitties need some loving... Sure thing, I've trumped your pathetic arguments and you've got to go! |
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