Dry Food Good For Teeth and Gum Health?

"Steve Crane" wrote in message
oups.com...


Phil P. wrote:
"Steve Crane" wrote in message
oups.com...
Steve, I didn't say canned food is a "cure for every disease known to
cats".
However, it may prevent a few. Canned food is the first-line treatment
for
interstitial cystitis, crystalluria, urolithiasis, IBD, and recently,
diabetes. Now, if cats with these diseases are *switched* to canned
food
for management and to prevent recurrence, feeding canned food from the
git-go may prevent these diseases from ever developing.

By that logic every cat should be fed k/d canned as soon as they are an
adult. Renal failure is more common than many of those diseases
combined.


No. K/d is way too low in protein for all but end-stage renal cats. Our
renal cats made *dramatic* turnarounds after switching to x/d from k/d and
increasing protein. Increased protein intake results in *increased*
glomerular filtration, whereas restricted intake results in a *reduction* in
the GFR. Protein restriction also decreases renal ammoniagenesis, and
therefore renal acid excretion- which leads to or exacerbates metabolic
acidosis. In addition, restricting protein impairs immunological responses
and reduces resistance to infection; it reduces hemoglobin which causes or
exacerbates anemia, and it decreases plasma protein levels, and causes
muscle wasting. This isn't a theory, Steve. I have living, breathing renal
cats that you would never believe are renal cats!

K/d will certainly prolong the life of cats in end-stage renal failure, but
it may hasten the demise of cats in early to mid-stage renal failure.




In my experience and our vets' general practices, I think the RL
incidence
of FLUTD is much higher than 2%.

We always think so for a number of reasons. Cats that are not ill don't
get into the vet clinic,


Let me put it another way: The overwhelming vast majority of cats with
interstitial cystitis, crystalluria, urolithiasis (and IBD, and diabetes)
are fed primarily dry food. I haven't seen or heard of many cats who are
fed canned food developing these diseases.







I'll take that as a "no".

As you please.


Since you didn't cite a case that proves otherwise, I have to take it as a
no.




Agreed, if that is what Joesephine Consumer actually bought. When
buying dry foods the cost per day to feed the cats is about 25% of the
cost of feeding canned foods. If Josephine Consumer elects to spend a
few extra bucks buying a better quality food, the same dollars spent
will buy a much better quality dry food than a canned food.


Not so. The "best" dry food cannot be as digestible as an equal quality
canned food. How could it be when only *dry* powered ingredients can be
use
in dry foods compared to fresh or whole meats and other ingredients used
in
canned foods.

Phil, You know better than this. The cost of shipping water - which is
+70% of the product makes that completely impossible. Digestibility
values wouldn't even come close to altering the net cost difference
between two foods. Further "dry powdered ingredients" are not the
primary ingredients in dry foods,


Other than a small amount of water (10%), dry powered ingredients are the
*only* ingredients used in dry food-- that's why its "dry", Steve.;-)



anymore than they are in canned
foods. Chicken used in canned foods can be exactly the same chicken
used in canned foods. The only difference is this extrusion process
which removes the water, the type (dry powdered versus otherwise) of
ingredient changes hardly at all. It is entirely possible to have a dry
food that is mroe digestible than a canned food - happens all the time.

Steve, I think you need to talk to Tony Buffington- you know, the President
of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists- who I consider an
expert. Here's his take on dry food which seems to be in conflict with
yours:

"Protein digestibility in pet foods is about 80 percent for dry foods, 85
percent for semimoist and canned foods containing large amounts of cereal
grains, and 90 percent for canned diets with meat as the primary protein
source."

"The amount of available energy in some dry foods also may make it
difficult for cats to eat enough food to meet calorie needs during periods
of nutritional stress, such as rapid growth and lactation."

"Kendall et al. showed that the apparent digestibility- of "ether extracts"
(the analytical method used to estimate the fat content of food) was 79
percent for dry foods, 88 percent for canned foods, and 92 percent for
semimoist foods."

"Disadvantages of dry foods can include lower energy density and the
possibility of decreased palatability and digestibility of the dry
ingredients commonly used in these formulas." (excerpted from The Cat:
Diseases and Clinical Management)

Actually, I think a mid-range canned food is as good if not better than a
high-end dry food.

"Steve Crane" wrote in message
oups.com...


Phil P. wrote:
"Steve Crane" wrote in message
oups.com...
Steve, I didn't say canned food is a "cure for every disease known to
cats".
However, it may prevent a few. Canned food is the first-line treatment
for
interstitial cystitis, crystalluria, urolithiasis, IBD, and recently,
diabetes. Now, if cats with these diseases are *switched* to canned
food
for management and to prevent recurrence, feeding canned food from the
git-go may prevent these diseases from ever developing.

By that logic every cat should be fed k/d canned as soon as they are an
adult. Renal failure is more common than many of those diseases
combined.


No. K/d is way too low in protein for all but end-stage renal cats. Our
renal cats made *dramatic* turnarounds after switching to x/d from k/d and
increasing protein. Increased protein intake results in *increased*
glomerular filtration, whereas restricted intake results in a *reduction* in
the GFR. Protein restriction also decreases renal ammoniagenesis, and
therefore renal acid excretion- which leads to or exacerbates metabolic
acidosis. In addition, restricting protein impairs immunological responses
and reduces resistance to infection; it reduces hemoglobin which causes or
exacerbates anemia, and it decreases plasma protein levels, and causes
muscle wasting. This isn't a theory, Steve. I have living, breathing renal
cats that you would never believe are renal cats!

K/d will certainly prolong the life of cats in end-stage renal failure, but
it may hasten the demise of cats in early to mid-stage renal failure.




In my experience and our vets' general practices, I think the RL
incidence
of FLUTD is much higher than 2%.

We always think so for a number of reasons. Cats that are not ill don't
get into the vet clinic,


Let me put it another way: The overwhelming vast majority of cats with
interstitial cystitis, crystalluria, urolithiasis (and IBD, and diabetes)
are fed primarily dry food. I haven't seen or heard of many cats who are
fed canned food developing these diseases.







I'll take that as a "no".

As you please.


Since you didn't cite a case that proves otherwise, I have to take it as a
no.




Agreed, if that is what Joesephine Consumer actually bought. When
buying dry foods the cost per day to feed the cats is about 25% of the
cost of feeding canned foods. If Josephine Consumer elects to spend a
few extra bucks buying a better quality food, the same dollars spent
will buy a much better quality dry food than a canned food.


Not so. The "best" dry food cannot be as digestible as an equal quality
canned food. How could it be when only *dry* powered ingredients can be
use
in dry foods compared to fresh or whole meats and other ingredients used
in
canned foods.

Phil, You know better than this. The cost of shipping water - which is
+70% of the product makes that completely impossible. Digestibility
values wouldn't even come close to altering the net cost difference
between two foods. Further "dry powdered ingredients" are not the
primary ingredients in dry foods,


Other than a small amount of water (10%), dry powered ingredients are the
*only* ingredients used in dry food-- that's why its "dry", Steve.;-)



anymore than they are in canned
foods. Chicken used in canned foods can be exactly the same chicken
used in canned foods. The only difference is this extrusion process
which removes the water, the type (dry powdered versus otherwise) of
ingredient changes hardly at all. It is entirely possible to have a dry
food that is mroe digestible than a canned food - happens all the time.

Steve, I think you need to talk to Tony Buffington- you know, the President
of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists- who I consider an
expert. Here's his take on dry food which seems to be in conflict with
yours:

"Protein digestibility in pet foods is about 80 percent for dry foods, 85
percent for semimoist and canned foods containing large amounts of cereal
grains, and 90 percent for canned diets with meat as the primary protein
source."

"The amount of available energy in some dry foods also may make it
difficult for cats to eat enough food to meet calorie needs during periods
of nutritional stress, such as rapid growth and lactation."

"Kendall et al. showed that the apparent digestibility- of "ether extracts"
(the analytical method used to estimate the fat content of food) was 79
percent for dry foods, 88 percent for canned foods, and 92 percent for
semimoist foods."

"Disadvantages of dry foods can include lower energy density and the
possibility of decreased palatability and digestibility of the dry
ingredients commonly used in these formulas." (excerpted from The Cat:
Diseases and Clinical Management)

Actually, I think a mid-range canned food is as good if not better than a
high-end dry food.

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:48:41 -0400, "Phil P."
wrote:


"Brad" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:25:51 -0400, "Phil P."
wrote:

to feed dry food simply because its easier and cheaper?





why do your posts sound the same every time I read them...??


Probably because you don't seem to learn or understand.



Yes Phil that might be it......it must be hell going through life with
the burden of knowing that you are the savior of all of the
unfortunate like myself who just don't have the brain capacity of
someone of your caliber......but I will take the tradeoff I would bet
I have allot more friends than you do because I don't have to be right
all the time......sometimes I actually listen to and value other
peoples opinions.......and save your comments about my opinions not
being worth valuing......I can just about guess exactly what you are
going to say next......do you have a huge word document that you copy
and paste all of your answers here.......

Now perhaps you can let me be cheap SOB and go and play with my cat
instead of sitting back like you and telling them how much you know
about them.......mine will live longer lives for that reason
alone.....

Brad

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:47:27 -0400, "Phil P."
wrote:


"CatNipped" wrote in message
...

- but the only canned food they'll eat is Fancy Feast
"Tender Beef Feast" (two cans in the AM and two cans in the PM, so one can
a
day per cat).


For renal cats, I've had the best luck with Hill's Prescription x/d. Its
low in phosphorus (0.53% DMB) and moderate in protein (43% DMB). But most
importantly, its not an acidified diet. X/d is more palatable than k/d and
g/d- which I think are a little too low in protein. I've seen dramatic
turnarounds in renal cats after switching to x/d from k/d.

Good luck,

Phil





Phil I'm sorry to say this and really not trying to embarass you
although you shot the first volley across my bow when all I did is
compliment you awhile back, And I don't let anyone walk on me not even
know it alls.

I just gotta ask you how your cats got themselves into all of these
unhealthy conditions in the first place, did you learn so much from
nursing your cats back to health from feeding them diets to low in
nutrition......try some dry maybe you won't have to learn all of these
corrective actions.

Heres hoping I won't have to learn massive corrective actions cuz my
cats are just healthy and happy as hell........sounds like a pretty
solid plan to me.......

In all seriousness I respect your knowledge about foods and diet and
the time you freely give to help people I just don't like the way you
treated me like I was now worthy of having an opinion and I have seen
you do the same to others but maybe some of those are afraid of
speaking for fear of ridicule from you and your legions.....me I just
tighten the chin strap on my helmet and charge unless its some of the
idiots here who I don't care to expend my rapidly depleting store of
brain cells.....

Now go ahead and pick choose the few items in my post that you have a
response to and the ones that take common sense to answer you can just
let go like usual. Or better for us and the other members lets just
drop the silliness.......matter of fact I will be the big man on this
thread and let you take the last shots........because you are so
deserving.......or you can let your minions finish your "lite" work.

Brad

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:57:31 -0500, "CatNipped"
wrote:


I can't find Pet Guard locally - I didn't want to order anything online
because they are *SO* picky about what there eat so I didn't want to buy a
large quantity of something that will go to waste. Do you know of any large
chains (PetsMart or PetCo) that carry it?



Hugs,

CatNipped



Nipped, you can't just let the food there for awhile then put away and
serve it again the next time and wait for them to get hungry enough to
eat it? I'm being serious maybe their systems are so delicately
balanced that they can get sick quickly from not eating but
considering their ancestory I would expect them to be much more hearty
than that.

I'm not singling you out I have heard many people say they can't get
their cats to eat the canned food. Maybe I feel this way because I was
also in the group that said let the baby cry he's healthy and warm and
will go to sleep soon......worked most of the time that I was able to
follow my own advice :-)


Brad

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"

On 12 Jul 2005 18:34:04 -0700, "Steve Crane"
wrote:

If Josephine Consumer elects to spend a
few extra bucks buying a better quality food, the same dollars spent
will buy a much better quality dry food than a canned food.


Is Josephines last name Jones by any chance? I have been trying to
keep up with a J. Jones who lives next door to me for several years
without any success.

Brad

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:52:53 -0400, "Phil P."
wrote:




Well, Brad, you did say you spray your dirty clothes with Febreeze instead
of washing them to cut down on water and electricity.






And yes Phil you are stupid enough to believe my humorous statement
and by the way if you are going to cut me down do it right.....I
believe I said it was my son who informed me that the dorms were full
of febreeze for these reasons.....I found it funny your warped mind
made it a means to attack me.....

And just so you don't worry your comment singling me out that your
comments would go over my head and not others didn't go
unnoticed.....congratulations you have just made my very small list of
people I would like to meet in real life.

From many years of reading newsgroups I am nearly positive I have your
type down to a science just a partial list of the character traits
are.

Always right no possibility of being wrong even if its staring you
right in your face what an awful thought that must be.

Start out with name calling and quickly moving to your foul mouth all
a bit childish

answer questions you "think" you have answers to and completely
disregard "snip" those that prove you wrong beyond a shadow of a
doubt.

Those are just the hilites of people like you, they are scattered
throughout the internet and my careful study has labeled your type a
quite mundane but very on target COWARD.

You hide behind your computer and come across as the tough guy which
in your eyes and mentality still means that name calling and
vulgarities make you a big man and would run screaming like a little
girl (sorry ladies) for fear of a confrontation.

I extended the top guy on my list an airline ticket roundtrip to come
and meet me one on one......I am not a tough guy but your kind sicken
me.

I doubt you will ever make the top of my list because to save my
sanity I have been forced to totally ignore your very special type of
coward.

I realize my tirade plays into your hands but I have to admit that
guys like you who hide behind vulgarities and childish name calling
push my buttons because you claim to be so damn smart and fail to see
how stupid(in the ways of life) you really are.....

Good bye to you my crazy.......and my apologies to the good folk here
who had to read this but I am sure you haven't seen him right from the
start treat me like I am inferior to his vast intelligence and oddly
enough it came from a short series of kudos I gave him for helping
people out I will try my best to not subject you all to any more of
this on my part......

Brad

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"

On 12 Jul 2005 18:51:29 -0700, "Steve Crane"
wrote:




Humor is good. To answer part of your question, most studies of this
nature always choose to use a pet food which is a common food. In most
cases the "regular maintenance" food being used will be Purina Cat Chow
or Dog Chow. For a number of reasons - it approximates the majority of
what pet owners feed, it's always easily available, and is a "typical"
food. To my knowledge none of the studies/reviews comparing dry versus
canned have ever been done with any premium food. By the same token the
canned version of the food would not be a premium food either. One
would hope that by comparing average dry to average can you could
extrapolate some useful information. I'm one "expert" who does not
agree canned foods are manna from heaven nor the cure-all for what ails
ya. I think I can qualify as an expert - even amongst those who dislike
my postings.



Steve don't you believe that right or wrong the canned as well as the
dry manufacturers put all of their know how and the best iingredients
into their best blend which unfortuneately relates to most expensive
ie: more research better quality base food, plus the best of
nutrients.

I know what you or I would like to see makes little difference in this
imperfect world I believe most of the companies would dupe us by
fixing the test blend in hopes we would think they are all the same.

I may be an idealist when it comes to this next statement but I do
believe if in fact one particular type canned or dry was in fact
better that someone would be able to prove it especially with the
claims that the dry is actually harmful to the cats. I for one am
going to bow out of this one for I have no expertise except for
testimonials and I have already explained those so I will read on to
become as knowledgeable as I can be and hold my breath until the next
canned vs dry thread appears.

I am starting a new thread today that I would like your opinion on and
anyone else still reading this but don't want to hijack this one it
will be something along the lines of taking indoor cats outdoors.



Brad

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"

"Brad" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:48:41 -0400, "Phil P."
wrote:


"Brad" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:25:51 -0400, "Phil P."
wrote:

to feed dry food simply because its easier and cheaper?





why do your posts sound the same every time I read them...??


Probably because you don't seem to learn or understand.



Yes Phil that might be it.....


Might be???? LOL!


..it must be hell going through life with
the burden of knowing that you are the savior of all of the
unfortunate like myself who just don't have the brain capacity of
someone of your caliber......but I will take the tradeoff I would bet
I have allot more friends than you do because I don't have to be right
all the time......sometimes I actually listen to and value other
peoples opinions.......and save your comments about my opinions not
being worth valuing......I can just about guess exactly what you are
going to say next......do you have a huge word document that you copy
and paste all of your answers here.......

Now perhaps you can let me be cheap SOB and go and play with my cat
instead of sitting back like you and telling them how much you know
about them.......mine will live longer lives for that reason
alone.....

Brad


LOL! That's the funniest post I've read in a long time!

On 13 Jul 2005 06:08:52 -0700, "PawsForThought"
wrote:

Brad wrote:
Does anyone leave any room for the possibilities that the makers of
dry food have corrected problems they may have had in the past after
all there is a huge market out there and I am sure they want their
share of it. I just hope people like PhilP keeps an open mind in
changes to the dry food industry but it doesn't seem like most of the
experts will leave any possibility open.

I don't think it's possible for a manufacturer to correct the problems
caused by a dry food diet, or the food wouldn't be dry anymore. As you
can see in these studies, it's the dryness of the food, and the
subsequent moisture volume, and water deficiency that can cause
problems:

nutrition.org -- Markwell et al. 128 (12): 2753S


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lauren
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe

Snipped long informational article from 1994 and 1995

Lauren thank you, you have supplied me with allot of information not
only on this post but on other posts plus websites and I have gone
through all of it.

But I have to take exception to your statement that the manufacturers
of dry food wouldn't be able to correct a problem they might have had.
You have partially made my case by giving me information ten years
old. Although some of the other findings you sent me weren't that far
out of date.

As I said in my last post I am bowing out of this for now and taking
the word of friends and others whom I respect, (brief damage control)
this doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion but its exactly that an
opinion that was admittedly made through substantial research but I
can accept your challenge to copy and paste as much information about
the benefits of dry food. I see little sense in that approach. But as
I said thank you very much for your well meaning wealth of
information.

Much of the info you gave me is not relevant as my cat along with his
water puts away about a six pack a day of Miller Lite......he has a
few bumps on his head but other than that no ill effects from the
beer.

I almost passed on your pictures because I have seen and commented on
them before but I'm glad I decided to look again I wouldn't have
wanted to miss the Halloween party......that was pretty cute.....

I just got my first digital camera and would like to show you all a
picture of Touhey but have no idea how to post a picture somewhere.
I'm afraid I am not beyond the copy and paste or sending a picture as
an attachment to an email recipient.....


Brad

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting......." HOLY @#$%... WHAT A RIDE!"