Cat foods and too much sugar - what are the best?

Phil P. wrote:
"Meals" are meat with the water and fat removed- actually 'concentrated
protein" and generally contain more protein (60-75%) than muscle meat and
meat by-products.

I found one of our earlier posts where you mentioned protein and cat
food products, as well as ash, fiber and other considerations:


--------------earlier post from you I believe----------------
1. Try to find a food in which the first 3 or 4 ingredients are meat
products. Foods that have meat products as only the first and second
ingredients could still contain more plant products than meat.
Ingredients
are listed in "descending order of predominance by weight". However,
the
combined total weight of all the plant products could outweigh the
meat-
even though meat is the first ingredient.

2. Try to find a food with a phosphorus content no higher than .2% 'as
fed'
or .9% 'dry matter basis'. If you accustom your cat to moderate-to-low
phosphorus diets at a young age, it will be much easier to maintain the
cat
on low phosphorus diets later in life- which will be crucial if your
cat
develops CRF.

3. Try to find a food with an 'ash' analysis of 5%. 2-3% (on the
label) is
ideal. The higher the 'ash' the less digestible the food.

4. Try to find a food with fiber content 2%. High fiber reduces
digestibility of proteins and fats and affects absorption for some
vitamins
and minerals. A high fiber content also increases fecal volume and
reduces
urine volume which could lead to urinary tract disorders. So, a food
with a
fiber content of about 1% max (on the label) would be ideal.

Many foods meet these requirements, but the trick isn't only finding a
food
that meets all these requirements but one that your cat will like, too!
You
can make the selection a little easier by putting down a smorgasbord of
4 or
5 foods that meet your requirements and let your cat choose the one she
likes. Repeat the process the next day but without the food she chose
the
day before. If she chooses another food, repeat the process the next
day
and leave out that food. I know this sounds crazy but this is how to
establish a group of foods that you know your cat will eat without
going
through numerous trials. This way you'll have a group of foods she
likes
and can rotate her diet. Personally, I believe in rotating foods from
an
early age, this will avoid fixed food preferences later in life and
will
make switching to a prescription diet much easier if the need arises.
Phil
-------------end of earlier post------------------


High protein is good for a cat and does not stress the renal system.
I'm not thrilled about meals and concentrated protein since that is a
bit like protein drinks but that might be my prejudice.

Many cat foods use meat by-products and meals and the marketing against
this might not be anything more than marketing.

I've noticed that Science Diet does not use the by-products or meals
for some of their Senior series which leads me to believe that for
older cats, simpler is better and stay away from the concentrated
by-products or meals. But this may not be true for younger cats where
Science Diet does use by-products and meals.

Currently I'm buying Science Diet Turkey and Gibblets Entree. By
definition, I gather that "Entree" only means around 25% meat protein
as opposed to 95% protein if the misleading [to me] "Entree" is not
used. Apparently there are all these words that have special legal
meanings. For example:

----------------------------------------
http://eattheapple.com/drjean/

CONTENT. The name of the flavor is strictly defined and tells us what
is actually in the food. "Chicken for Dogs" must contain at least 95%
chicken (excluding water). Similarly, "Fish and Giblets for Cats" will
be 95% fish and giblets together, and there must be more fish than
giblets, since fish appears first on the label. If the label says
"dinner," "platter," "entree," "nuggets," "formula," or similar term,
there must be 25% of the named ingredients. That is, "Fish Dinner" must
contain 25% fish. If more than one ingredient is named, such as "Fish
and Giblets Entree," the two together must comprise 25% of the total,
and the second ingredient must be at least 3%. Ingredients labeled as
"with" must be present at 3%, such as "Fish Dinner with Giblets." An
ingredient labeled as a "flavor," such as "Beef Flavor Dinner," may not
actually contain beef meat, but more likely will contain beef digest or
other beef by products that give the food a beef flavor.

WHAT'S A BY-PRODUCT? Even on premium brands, you will notice one of the
major ingredients listed is "by-products" of some sort. By-products are
basically defined as "parts other than meat." These may include
internal organs not commonly eaten by humans, such as lungs, spleens,
and intestines, other parts such as cow udders and uteri, and in the
case of poultry by-products, heads, beaks and feet. By-products must be
from "freshly slaughtered" animals, although there is some question as
to how fresh they really are by the time they reach the pet food
manufacturer.
---------------------------------------------------

Can't anybody just speak the plain truth without having to twist and
bend and adulterate?

In any case, I am feeding my 6 year old cat, female, neutered, 10
pounds aiming for less than 8 pounds, Science Diet Turkey Entree as
well as various Fancy Feast, since you pointed out Fancy Feast is
pretty good now in regards to phosphorus. And especially since my local
supermarket had a special on Fancy Feast for $.40/small can.

I also feed her Science Diet Light and Oral Care. And sometimes Royal
Canin for the slim series. I like this to help clean her teeth after
the wet food.

To expedite weight loss, which is not critical since she appears to
have somewhat of a waist line and I can feel her spine very easily and
ribcage somewhat easily, I'll get Science Diet Prescription Light r/d
in the future.

Since I have been cutting down on her food, she is not so fussy
anymore. I am getting to the point where she may have to earn her food.
That is, I hold out the dry kibble and she has to walk or preferably
jump - some sort of exercise for both of us.

wrote in message
ups.com...

High protein is good for a cat and does not stress the renal system.


Protein doesn't hurt the kidneys but why make them work harder than they
have to. Protein with a high biological value produces less waste products
from protein catabolism that the kidneys must filter out of the blood.


I'm not thrilled about meals and concentrated protein since that is a
bit like protein drinks but that might be my prejudice.


Some meals are better than others. Actually, poultry by-product meal (PBM)
is about the best of the 'meals'- even better than chicken meal. PBM is a
good source of protein because its highly digestible and made up of mostly
viscera (rather than chicken necks and backs as in chicken meal) which gives
PBM a very good protein-to-ash ratio. The more ash an ingredient contains
the lower the digestibility. PBM is especially better for cats because it
gives them a lot protein without the high phosphorus that's usually found in
high protein ingredients. PBM is also low in magnesium. Meals are
generally only used in dry foods.



Many cat foods use meat by-products and meals and the marketing against
this might not be anything more than marketing.



By-products got a bad name from Nutro back in the 60s whose main marketing
gimmick was "contains no by-products". Even though Nutro never actually
said by-products were harmful, promoting the absence of an ingredient
creates consumer fear and suspicion because it implies the ingredient might
be harmful. Nutro never had to prove anything was 'wrong' with by-products
because they never actually said anything was wrong with them. Nevertheless,
their gimmick was
very successful. Later, various groups- especially the au natural
cult and health food fanatics- perpetuated all kinds of scare tactics and
rumors about by-products- which are still floating around to this day.
By-products are actually the most nutritious parts of the animal- even more
nutritious than plain skeletal meat.






I've noticed that Science Diet does not use the by-products or meals
for some of their Senior series which leads me to believe that for
older cats, simpler is better and stay away from the concentrated
by-products or meals. But this may not be true for younger cats where
Science Diet does use by-products and meals.


Science Diets uses chicken by-product meal in *all* of their senior dry
diets. I don't think you'll ever find meals in canned food.




Currently I'm buying Science Diet Turkey and Gibblets Entree. By
definition, I gather that "Entree" only means around 25% meat protein
as opposed to 95% protein if the misleading [to me] "Entree" is not
used.


Entree means at least 25% of the diet (not protein) must contain Turkey &
Giblets and more Turkey than giblets. T&GE contains mostly Turkey since
Turkey is listed second (after water) and turkey giblets are listed sixth.
Turkey & Giblets Entree is a pretty good diet; 4 of the first 5 ingredients
(after water) are meat protein sources. T&GE is one of the diets on my
cats' rotating menu.





Can't anybody just speak the plain truth without having to twist and
bend and adulterate?



What I'd like to see the most on labels is all the ingredients listed on a
caloric basis. The way pet food labels are prepared now gives people the
false impression that dry food contains more protein than canned food even
though canned food generally contains 20-25% *more* protein than dry foods.




In any case, I am feeding my 6 year old cat, female, neutered, 10
pounds aiming for less than 8 pounds,


Take a look at the chart. How would you score her body?

http://www.maxshouse.com/nutrition/B...stem-Chart.jpg




Science Diet Turkey Entree as
well as various Fancy Feast, since you pointed out Fancy Feast is
pretty good now in regards to phosphorus. And especially since my local
supermarket had a special on Fancy Feast for $.40/small can.

I also feed her Science Diet Light and Oral Care. And sometimes Royal
Canin for the slim series. I like this to help clean her teeth after
the wet food.

To expedite weight loss, which is not critical since she appears to
have somewhat of a waist line and I can feel her spine very easily and
ribcage somewhat easily, I'll get Science Diet Prescription Light r/d
in the future.


I wouldn't feed her r/d or w/d unless she had a serious weight problem.
Remember, fiber dilutes the caloric density of the diet by displacing
protein and fat and other nutrients. Fiber can also interfere with or
reduce the absorption of vitamins and minerals as well as cause
constipation. Cats fed high-fiber diets must be *well* hydrated to avoid
impaction of the fiber in the colon.




Since I have been cutting down on her food, she is not so fussy
anymore. I am getting to the point where she may have to earn her food.
That is, I hold out the dry kibble and she has to walk or preferably
jump - some sort of exercise for both of us.

I like to hide my cats' food every now and then so they have to "hunt" for
it. Maybe its my imagination- but they sure seem to enjoy the food more
when they hunt for it. May be its the thrill of the hunt!

Phil P. wrote:

Science Diets uses chicken by-product meal in *all* of their senior dry
diets. I don't think you'll ever find meals in canned food.


Yes, that's so, in the SD Senior 7+ Gourmet Turkey Entr=E9e, canned,
which is what I meant, there does not seem to be any meat meals or meat
by-products:

Water, turkey, liver, rice, corn gluten meal, chicken liver flavor,
powdered cellulose, guar gum, xanthan gum, locust bean gum, soybean
mill run, taurine, brewers dried yeast, DL-methionine, minerals
(calcium carbonate, potassium citrate, calcium sulfate, potassium
chloride, salt, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous
oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), vitamins (choline chloride,
vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, thiamine, niacin, calcium
pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin,
vitamin B12 supplement).


Entree means at least 25% of the diet (not protein) must contain Turkey &
Giblets and more Turkey than giblets. T&GE contains mostly Turkey since
Turkey is listed second (after water) and turkey giblets are listed sixth.
Turkey & Giblets Entree is a pretty good diet; 4 of the first 5 ingredien=
ts
(after water) are meat protein sources. T&GE is one of the diets on my
cats' rotating menu.

It seems better than the others in some ways. What are your others in
your rotation?


When I went out and bought Fancy Feast, I bought all the wrong ones,
sky-high in phosphorus [next time I'll take your list]:

http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm [I think this is still
accurate if the titles are identical but I can double-check since you
expressed skepticism.]

Turkey & Giblets Feast 1.88% Phosphorus
Chunky Chicken Feast 1.81% Phosphorus
Ocean Whitefish & Tuna Feast 1.46% Phosphorus
Gourmet Chicken Feast 1.87% Phosphorus
Tender Liver & Chicken Feast 1.66% Phosphorus

My cat likes it. I gather the phosphorus is from the high meat/protein?
Okay, a little treat high in phosphorus is good for one week.


What I'd like to see the most on labels is all the ingredients listed on a
caloric basis. The way pet food labels are prepared now gives people the
false impression that dry food contains more protein than canned food even
though canned food generally contains 20-25% *more* protein than dry food=
s=2E

So true and most stuff does not even list any caloric content. Nor the
phosphorus content. Nor the calcium/phosphorus ratio. But a real
break-down would be good to figure out exactly how many grams and hence
caloric energy in the protein provided.


In any case, I am feeding my 6 year old cat, female, neutered, 10
pounds aiming for less than 8 pounds,

Take a look at the chart. How would you score her body?
http://www.maxshouse.com/nutrition/B...stem-Chart.jpg

I would think 6 and 7. She definitely has a tummy flap hanging down a
bit. But she is not that bulky around the middle. I think she is losing
weight. I also think I am not giving her enough protein and canned
food, so she is getting a bit soft and losing some lean mass, not that
she had much to begin with. She is not a muscular cat. Her first year
was 5 pounds, then 7.5 pounds the second year, so a smallish cat. I
think now though from tip of the tail to her front paws outstretched is
almost 3 feet though. Her tail is moderate, not a looong one.

I wouldn't feed her r/d or w/d unless she had a serious weight problem.
Remember, fiber dilutes the caloric density of the diet by displacing
protein and fat and other nutrients. Fiber can also interfere with or
reduce the absorption of vitamins and minerals as well as cause
constipation. Cats fed high-fiber diets must be *well* hydrated to avoid
impaction of the fiber in the colon.

Same for humans. She does hydrate well but you're point is well-taken.
The fiber would be doubled from 8 to 16% or thereabouts with r/d.


I like to hide my cats' food every now and then so they have to "hunt" for
it. Maybe its my imagination- but they sure seem to enjoy the food more
when they hunt for it. May be its the thrill of the hunt!

I think so. They like to earn their food too. Keeps them
psychologically well-balanced. When I really first dieted my cat, she
went out and brought back a big, fat mouse to show me! She did not need
my food manipulations.

wrote in message
oups.com...


http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm [I think this is still
accurate if the titles are identical but I can double-check since you
expressed skepticism.]

I'm not skeptical- I'm *absolutely certain* the list is outdated and the
phosphorus levels are wrong. Scroll to the bottom of the page- you'll see
"Revised: 12-Oct-2003". I have the most current proximate analyses from
Nestle/Purina. I explained this to you already.

These are the Fancy Feast diets you want:

Marinated Beef Feast:.......0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Marinated Chicken Feast:.0.09% (AF) - 0.40% (DMB)
Marinated Salmon Feast:..0.13% (AF) - 0.59% (DMB)
Grilled Chicken Feast:......0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Grilled Turkey Feast:........0.21% (AF) - 0.95% (DMB)
Grilled Tuna Feast:...........0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Minced Beef Feast:..........0.17% (AF) - 0.77% (DMB)
Sliced Beef Feast:............0.17% (AF) - 0.77% (DMB)
Sliced Beef & Giblets Feast: 0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Sliced Chicken Hearts & Liver Feast: 0.21% (AF) - 0.95% (DMB)
Seafood Filets Tuna & Oceanfish in Aspic: 0.16% (AF) - 0.72% (DMB)

X-No-Archive: Maybe, Maybe not, Maybe, Maybe not

Phil P. wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm [I think this is still
accurate if the titles are identical but I can double-check since you
expressed skepticism.]

I'm not skeptical- I'm *absolutely certain* the list is outdated and the
phosphorus levels are wrong. Scroll to the bottom of the page- you'll see
"Revised: 12-Oct-2003". I have the most current proximate analyses from
Nestle/Purina. I explained this to you already.

These are the Fancy Feast diets you want:

Marinated Beef Feast:.......0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Marinated Chicken Feast:.0.09% (AF) - 0.40% (DMB)
Marinated Salmon Feast:..0.13% (AF) - 0.59% (DMB)
Grilled Chicken Feast:......0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Grilled Turkey Feast:........0.21% (AF) - 0.95% (DMB)
Grilled Tuna Feast:...........0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Minced Beef Feast:..........0.17% (AF) - 0.77% (DMB)
Sliced Beef Feast:............0.17% (AF) - 0.77% (DMB)
Sliced Beef & Giblets Feast: 0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Sliced Chicken Hearts & Liver Feast: 0.21% (AF) - 0.95% (DMB)
Seafood Filets Tuna & Oceanfish in Aspic: 0.16% (AF) - 0.72% (DMB)

Thanks for an accurate listing. Now don't get annoyed with me for
pursuing this.
I realize your numbers are excellent. But something is wrong with the
numbers
I am getting from Purina.

I just got off the phone with Purina/Fancy Feast - and something is
really wrong with just even the first item I checked. I asked them to
go over their numbers since it's screwed up. Now your numbers are all
fine, but not what I just got from Purina in regards to my request for
info. I know yours are right because I divide the first number by .22
and get the second number since 78% moisture leaves 22% or .22 as dry
matter basis denominator in the simple division. Like .16%/.22 = .72%
DMB, really .727%

Take for example this one from Purina's phone line:
"Turkey & Giblets Feast .45% As Fed, 1.01% Dry Basis Matter" says
Purina.
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. hmmm, did I say wrong?

This can't possibly be right since .45% As Fed is really 2% on a Dry
Matter Basis. They told me it's 1.01%. I tried to point out to the girl
answering the phone that this is impossible unless the product was 1/2
water but it's not. All their products that I have seen are 78%
moisture, hence 22% dry matter. This particular product is also 78%
moisture as we double-checked while on the phone. 1-888-CAT CHOW
(1-888-228-2469) or 800-778-8864.

I tried to explain that 1/2% phosphorus as fed could only be 1%
phosphorus as dry matter if and only [IFF in symbolic logic] their
product was 50% water. But she was only a go-between, that is, someone
just taking calls, names, and addresses. So she was nice and empathetic
and said she would relay the info to someone who would know about such
matters. Very pleasant.

In other words, .45% is really 2% DBM which is sky-high for phosphorus.
Actually .25/.22=2.05% I think someone put in a wrong constant in their
spreadsheet.

Now that web address you said is outdated lists the same number that
Purina reported to me, namely 1% or 1.01% as dry matter basis. So if
the web is out of date, it's because Purina is out of date. The web
site can only go by Purina. And the web site probably does not update
unless the numbers are wrong. In this case, something is really, really
out of whack, just going by simple division. But let me get the
official printout from Purina and then I'll check the website. I have
found updates before and tried to contact the webmaster but I don't
remember if she updated her site with the newer information.

Purina is going to mail me their entire list which could take up to 2
weeks. And in a few days, someone is going to telephone me back why the
numbers don't compute. I don't know why they could not email me or put
up somewhere the real information on their website. Maybe a fax? Hmmm,
I'll call back. I WANT INFO! I WANT INFO! I, who me?

In any case, I really hope their phosphorus levels are not sky high and
this is all just a mistake because someone keyed in the wrong constant
in their number crunching.

What a day. I called up a human food manufacturer, in Colorado, and all
they could say about my request for information was, well, they just
did not know. I asked simple information, such as, your products lists
fiber, how much is soluble and how much is insoluble? If not mandated
by law, they could care less. But their product is wheat bran, and the
main point of wheat bran is insoluble fiber, duh! Arrowhead Mills.

Scary how little people know. Talking Heads. Funny too. They say their
first name, and then ask me for my last name, to "better serve me." I
tried to point out the difference that if they give me only their first
name, fine, but why ask me my last name? How does this better serve me?
I've yet to get any answers in the three phone calls I just made.
Purina's web site is the pits. Want more info, click here. I click and
just get a bigger picture of their can! Gee thanks. Duh.

I also called Purina's vet services. And their numbers were almost
double the numbers for Science Diet. Just about double. Science Diet
said 160 kcals, Purina said 255 kcals. And I tried to give the
variables the same constraints, weight loss, neutered, inactive, age.
It's a mess. I tried to mention the formulae in the vet hand book/vet
association you put up in one of your last posts just now, but that
went over like a lead balloon.

I think I am going to find a cave and hibernate the rest of the
century.

Beam me up Scotty. My time here is coming to an end. Am I asking too
difficult questions for earth?

X-No-Archive: Maybe, Maybe not, Maybe, Maybe not

Correction:

In other words, .45% is really 2% dry matter basis or dry basis matter,
and not 1%. This is awfully high for phosphorus. But they make over 60
types of Fancy Feast canned foods alone so that's another wrinkle.
Perhaps their new focus is on low magnesium and low ash instead, with
low pH and low kilocalories or calories for their special diet foods.
High phosphorus might come with the territory of more protein in
general.

Actually .45/.22=2.05% I think someone put in a wrong constant in their
spreadsheet. But in all fairness to Purina, they were awfully nice and
helpful and will check out all the numbers and get back to me. I
suspect that their main spreadsheet either has a corrupt constant or
someone just put in the wrong number for moisture and that affected all
the outputs.

wrote in message
oups.com...
X-No-Archive: Maybe, Maybe not, Maybe, Maybe not

Phil P. wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm [I think this is still
accurate if the titles are identical but I can double-check since you
expressed skepticism.]

I'm not skeptical- I'm *absolutely certain* the list is outdated and the
phosphorus levels are wrong. Scroll to the bottom of the page- you'll
see
"Revised: 12-Oct-2003". I have the most current proximate analyses from
Nestle/Purina. I explained this to you already.

These are the Fancy Feast diets you want:

Marinated Beef Feast:.......0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Marinated Chicken Feast:.0.09% (AF) - 0.40% (DMB)
Marinated Salmon Feast:..0.13% (AF) - 0.59% (DMB)
Grilled Chicken Feast:......0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Grilled Turkey Feast:........0.21% (AF) - 0.95% (DMB)
Grilled Tuna Feast:...........0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Minced Beef Feast:..........0.17% (AF) - 0.77% (DMB)
Sliced Beef Feast:............0.17% (AF) - 0.77% (DMB)
Sliced Beef & Giblets Feast: 0.18% (AF) - 0.81% (DMB)
Sliced Chicken Hearts & Liver Feast: 0.21% (AF) - 0.95% (DMB)
Seafood Filets Tuna & Oceanfish in Aspic: 0.16% (AF) - 0.72% (DMB)

Thanks for an accurate listing. Now don't get annoyed with me for
pursuing this.


I understand, I had a girlfriend who was OCD, too. So, I know you're not
being obtuse intentionally. That's why I stayed in this long.. ;-)



I realize your numbers are excellent. But something is wrong with the
numbers
I am getting from Purina.
I just got off the phone with Purina/Fancy Feast - and something is
really wrong with just even the first item I checked.


You probably spoke to some bimbo receptionist. I had one of those too- I
kept her around because she had such great legs. Customers would come to
buy something just to get a better look.

I don't think you could hold on for another 2 weeks, so, I thought I should
post the original typical analyses for a few Fancy Feast diets, now, before
you
have a breakdown. ;-)

http://www.maxshouse.com/nutrition/F..._Marinated.pdf
http://www.maxshouse.com/nutrition/F...al_Grilled.pdf

HTH,

Phil