OT - Suicide a Sin?

Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:

Catholics believe that anyone committing suicide, since they don't
have the chance to be absolved of their sins by the Catholic Church,
will burn in everlasting hell - in unspeakable agony for all of
eternity. Well... that kind of puts a damper on thoughts of "ending
the pain", doesn't it?

The first girl I was in love with was a Catholic with schizophrenia.
She would have been torn apart with guilt anyway, that was one of the
main symptoms of her illness, but the Catholicism put her into even
worse binds. She had that dogma about suicide in her mind almost
all the time, and added to it the belief that was she was so sinful
she couldn't face going to confession either. She was *extremely*
intelligent, and any attempt to discuss the position she'd thought
herself into ended up like one of those dialogues in R.D. Laing's
"Knots".

Drugs and ECT did almost nothing for the schizophrenia, but she did
partially recover from the Catholicism after a while and was a lot
happier for it.

But that didn't free her up to kill herself, I hope!

--
Joyce ^..^

To email me, remove the XXX from my user name.

Kreisleriana drtmuirATearthlink.net wrote:

only God knows what is truly in your heart. A loving God would not
send his child, made in his image, to eternal suffering, on a
technicality, a "gotcha."

I don't think a loving God would send his child to eternal suffering,
no matter how evil that person has been. Someone who has done terrible
things might need to go *someplace* to contemplate on and atone for sins
committed during life, but the whole "burning for all eternity" thing
seems like it was thought up by some sadistic human being, for the purpose
of - well you said it best, scaring the bejesus out of kids (adults too).

I wasn't taught about that kind of loving God, though. The God of my
childhood was a screaming maniac who went around smiting everyone the
Jews didn't like. This God wasn't so different from my dad - minus the
smiting, of course. Anyway, I don't have much use for a God that I
have to be terrified of, as I don't see any spiritual benefit in that.
So at this point, I'm content to be an agnostic and "let the mystery be."

--
Joyce ^..^

To email me, remove the XXX from my user name.

"CatEyes" wrote in message
...
Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some
conclusions. It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

I was brought up Catholic (lapsed when I got old enough to grow an
"irony meter"). Catholics are taught that only the Catholic Church
can absolve someone of their sins (hence "Last Rites"). Most
Protestants believe that only Christ can forgive sins, and that can
be done after death, so suicide isn't necessarily a "go straight to
hell" card. But Catholics believe that anyone committing suicide,
since they don't have the chance to be absolved of their sins by the
Catholic Church, will burn in everlasting hell - in unspeakable
agony for all of eternity. Well.... that kind of puts a damper on
thoughts of "ending the pain", doesn't it? I think it is probably
the vestiges of that Catholic upbringing that's the only reason I'm
alive right now (and, right now, being alive *isn't* a good thing
considering the constant pain I'm in, so thank you oh so very much
mom!!!).

What are your thoughts on the subject?

One last comment - this forum is (or at least *used* to be) a place
where we could discuss *anything* politely, even politics. I'm
hoping we can retain a modicum of that forbearance and not turn this
discussion into a war thread.

Hugs,

CatNipped


If you just want to discuss the theology of it, maybe some Protestants
believe in forgiveness of sin after death, but to say most do would be
way overstating it.

Most still believe that you have to confess your sins and ask for
forgiveness in this life. You just do so directly through prayer
rather than through anyone in the church as an intermediary.

As to what I personally believe, I believe that suicide is a sin
against those that are left to cope with the aftermath. At the very
least it makes then more likely to think of life and problems as
things you can opt out of. Even more it makes them question their own
worth and worthiness. What is their value if their loved ones would
choose to leave them?

I know it becomes doubly difficult if you have to live with a family
history of suicide, but it also becomes twice as important.

For now, just hang on.

Jo

On May 12, 2:26*pm, "CatEyes" wrote:
Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some conclusions.
It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

I was brought up Catholic (lapsed when I got old enough to grow an "irony
meter"). *Catholics are taught that only the Catholic Church can absolve
someone of their sins (hence "Last Rites"). *Most Protestants believe that
only Christ can forgive sins, and that can be done after death, so suicide
isn't necessarily a "go straight to hell" card. *But Catholics believe that
anyone committing suicide, since they don't have the chance to be absolved
of their sins by the Catholic Church, will burn in everlasting hell - in
unspeakable agony for all of eternity. *Well.... that kind of puts a damper
on thoughts of "ending the pain", doesn't it? *I think it is probably the
vestiges of that Catholic upbringing that's the only reason I'm alive right
now (and, right now, being alive *isn't* a good thing considering the
constant pain I'm in, so thank you oh so very much mom!!!).

What are your thoughts on the subject?

One last comment - this forum is (or at least *used* to be) a place where we
could discuss *anything* politely, even politics. *I'm hoping we can retain
a modicum of that forbearance and not turn this discussion into a war
thread.

Hugs,

CatNipped

I find this post and your subsequent comments particularly
reprehensible and thoughtless. Not that I would expect much better
from you but there are groups where this is appropriate...this is not
one of them. Add to that Jill's comments on a subject that she has
absolutely no experience and the two of you have once again provided
me a very valid reason to stay away from this group. I cannot
believe that I have allowed the two of you to cause such raw pain in
the depths of my heart that tears which are normally kept very tightly
compartmentalized were able to escape. I can now look forward to a
week of putting the lid back on that time of my life, all the time
having to relive the "what ifs" and "if only's" and beat myself up
some more.

There were several intelligent comments made by a few of our members.
Thank you for that. Often when a person takes his own life he doesn't
realize what he's doing. For whatever reason he has forgotten to take
his medicine for a period of time and he truly isn't thinking
rationally. He didn't intend to hurt his children nor his parents or
siblings. He truly didn't know what he was doing. Please don't try
to persuade me to think any other way. This is the only thing I can
believe and stay even 90% sane.And don't you even dare to analzye why
someone did this. You and Jill don't have that right. Adrian and
Flippy have that right and I'll listen to them, but not either of you
so shut the F&&K up and find another way to get attention from
everyone.

And a special thank you to those of you who have provided us with cat
stories that enabled me a place to go and calm down some before
writing this post (because I really don't believe it is anatomically
feasible for these two ladies to perform the acts I had suggested in
my deleted messages )

Julie
holding her arms out for hug from two others in this group who have
lost a sibling to the illness of bipolar disorder and might also be
hurt by the callousness of Lori and Jill's comments.

Julie
The big sister who couldn't save her brother from his deamons and
tonight is crying uncontrollably for that deficiency.

Damn you, you bitch!!

I will try and tell you what I think and then won't read this thread
anymore. I have had two members of my family do this, suicide. My husband
was in constant agony for 10 years, cried at night and slept most of the day
in exhaustion. He finally got that flesh eating disease which, because of a
lot of other diagnoses, they didn't find for sometime.

He knew what had happened in my family and told me more than once, "No
matter how bad it gets, I won't do that to the ones I would leave behind."
By the end I would have understood, I think but, he kept his word.

It leaves those who loved the person haunted for the rest of their lives
wondering what they could have, should have done.

I believe in a life after this one and, for that reason would not do such a
thing so long as I had control over my mind.
"CatEyes" wrote in message
...
Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some
conclusions. It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

I was brought up Catholic (lapsed when I got old enough to grow an "irony
meter"). Catholics are taught that only the Catholic Church can absolve
someone of their sins (hence "Last Rites"). Most Protestants believe that
only Christ can forgive sins, and that can be done after death, so suicide
isn't necessarily a "go straight to hell" card. But Catholics believe
that anyone committing suicide, since they don't have the chance to be
absolved of their sins by the Catholic Church, will burn in everlasting
hell - in unspeakable agony for all of eternity. Well.... that kind of
puts a damper on thoughts of "ending the pain", doesn't it? I think it is
probably the vestiges of that Catholic upbringing that's the only reason
I'm alive right now (and, right now, being alive *isn't* a good thing
considering the constant pain I'm in, so thank you oh so very much
mom!!!).

What are your thoughts on the subject?

One last comment - this forum is (or at least *used* to be) a place where
we could discuss *anything* politely, even politics. I'm hoping we can
retain a modicum of that forbearance and not turn this discussion into a
war thread.

Hugs,

CatNipped

"GaDragonfly" wrote in message
...

Julie
holding her arms out for hug from two others in this group who have
lost a sibling to the illness of bipolar disorder and might also be
hurt by

snip

=======================

Julie, I'm so sorry you're in pain. I've always liked reading your posts
but lately you only seem to critisize and judge and tell us why you don't
participate here any more. I wish I knew what to say but truth is I don't.
I just want you to stop hurting.

(((((((((((((((((((((JULIE))))))))))))))))))))))

"GaDragonfly" wrote in message
...
On May 12, 2:26 pm, "CatEyes" wrote:

I find this post and your subsequent comments particularly
reprehensible and thoughtless. Not that I would expect much better
from you but there are groups where this is appropriate...this is not
one of them.

I cannot believe that I have allowed the two of you to cause such raw
pain in
the depths of my heart that tears which are normally kept very tightly
compartmentalized were able to escape. I can now look forward to a
week of putting the lid back on that time of my life, all the time
having to relive the "what ifs" and "if only's" and beat myself up
some more.
********************

Julie, I'd like to apologize for any part I had in this.

While its nice to think that we are a group of friends who can discuss
ANYTHING civilly, that isn't the case here. For that matter I doubt
its true in any random group of friends anywhere.

Suicide, pain, religion, and sin are hitting pretty hard and pretty
deep for a place meant to be devoted to stories about cats.

Some subject cause not only strong feelings but intense pain as well.

There are things in my life I would not want to use as a subject for
casual conversation. Things that it would cause me pain to see others
discuss casually. I should know better than to be part of that type
of conversation in a group where I know it can cause hurt to others.

Some things a person needs to discuss with a therapist or a trusted
advisor. It really isn't fair (and it can be self indulgent) to dump
those things on someone who is not a confidant.

I haven't been there Julie but I do still miss my brother every day.
Can I offer you a hug anyway?

Jo

MLB wrote:
CatEyes wrote:
Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some
conclusions. It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

I was brought up Catholic (lapsed when I got old enough to grow an
"irony meter"). Catholics are taught that only the Catholic Church
can absolve someone of their sins (hence "Last Rites"). Most
Protestants believe that only Christ can forgive sins, and that can be
done after death, so suicide isn't necessarily a "go straight to hell"
card. But Catholics believe that anyone committing suicide, since
they don't have the chance to be absolved of their sins by the
Catholic Church, will burn in everlasting hell - in unspeakable agony
for all of eternity. Well.... that kind of puts a damper on thoughts
of "ending the pain", doesn't it? I think it is probably the vestiges
of that Catholic upbringing that's the only reason I'm alive right now
(and, right now, being alive *isn't* a good thing considering the
constant pain I'm in, so thank you oh so very much mom!!!).

What are your thoughts on the subject?

One last comment - this forum is (or at least *used* to be) a place
where we could discuss *anything* politely, even politics. I'm hoping
we can retain a modicum of that forbearance and not turn this
discussion into a war thread.

Hugs,

CatNipped


For a long time now, my reply to "how are you?' might be: "Everything
hurts and what doesn't hurt doesn't work". I cannot think of any of my
friends who can honestly answer differently.

You are a talented writer, so get out your pencil and paper and write
and keep writing. The pain might not go away but perhaps you can forget
it for a while.

COMPENSATION

When trouble came and skies grew gray,
This, we thought, is here to stay.
But trouble in time went on its way
And when it left we found we wore
An armor we"d not known before.
(Lucretia Penny)

Purrs for a brighter tomorrow. MLB



1"


Julie
holding her arms out for hug from two others in this group who have
lost a sibling to the illness of bipolar disorder and might also be
hurt by the callousness of Lori and Jill's comments.

{{{{Julie}}}}

I understand. Email me if you want to talk.

Patti
In memory of my sister, Deanna, niece Karen, twin nephews Robert and
David, who left this life way too early. My brother in law Gary fought
his demons, and lost his soul. They all left this world on Dec 23, 1969.
They are at peace.

On May 12, 11:09*pm, "Jofirey" wrote:
"GaDragonfly" wrote in message

...
On May 12, 2:26 pm, "CatEyes" wrote:

I find this post and your subsequent comments particularly
reprehensible and thoughtless. Not that I would expect much better
from you but there are groups where this is appropriate...this is not
one of them.

I *cannot believe that I have allowed the two of you to cause such raw
pain in
the depths of my heart that tears which are normally kept very tightly
compartmentalized were able to escape. *I can now look forward to a
week of putting the lid back on that time of my life, all the time
having to relive the "what ifs" and "if only's" and beat myself up
some more.
********************

Julie, I'd like to apologize for any part I had in this.

While its nice to think that we are a group of friends who can discuss
ANYTHING civilly, that isn't the case here. *For that matter I doubt
its true in any random group of friends anywhere.

Suicide, pain, religion, and sin are hitting pretty hard and pretty
deep for a place meant to be devoted to stories about cats.

Some subject cause not only strong feelings but intense pain as well.

There are things in my life I would not want to use as a subject for
casual conversation. *Things that it would cause me pain to see others
discuss casually. *I should know better than to be part of that type
of conversation in a group where I know it can cause hurt to others.

Some things a person needs to discuss with a therapist or a trusted
advisor. *It really isn't fair (and it can be self indulgent) to dump
those things on someone who is not a confidant.

I haven't been there Julie but I do still miss my brother every day.
Can I offer you a hug anyway?

Jo

Thanks Jo, and you didn't cause me any pain and I will gladly take
your hugs and those from Cheryl. I promise that you won't hear me
complaining about anyone for at least 3 months

Julie

wrote in message
...
Kreisleriana drtmuirATearthlink.net wrote:

only God knows what is truly in your heart. A loving God would not
send his child, made in his image, to eternal suffering, on a
technicality, a "gotcha."

I don't think a loving God would send his child to eternal suffering,
no matter how evil that person has been. Someone who has done terrible
things might need to go *someplace* to contemplate on and atone for sins
committed during life, but the whole "burning for all eternity" thing
seems like it was thought up by some sadistic human being, for the purpose
of - well you said it best, scaring the bejesus out of kids (adults too).

I wasn't taught about that kind of loving God, though. The God of my
childhood was a screaming maniac who went around smiting everyone the
Jews didn't like. This God wasn't so different from my dad - minus the
smiting, of course. Anyway, I don't have much use for a God that I
have to be terrified of, as I don't see any spiritual benefit in that.
So at this point, I'm content to be an agnostic and "let the mystery be."



I actually don't believe in hell at all, I just wasn't going to go that far
in my initial posting, and possible court trouble. Some people are very
attached to hell


--
Theresa and Dante

Stinky Forever: http://pets.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh