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Which prescription diet best for chronic constipation/lazy bowels?



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 16th 04, 04:42 PM
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Gaubster wrote:

Feline w/d and r/d from Hill's are
formulated with a pH range of 6.2-6.4
which will help manage crystals. So, you
are wrong on that count, Megan.


No I'm not. I never said it was wrong to feed that. I said I "questioned
it" which is entirely different. Apparently it didn't occur to you that
managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things.


First of all, I have a real big problem with
a vet that proclaims a cat has to be on a
special food/drugs for "the rest of its life"
because of *one* incident of constipation.


Have you seen the test results yourself?
How can you diagnose over the internet?

I didn't make diagnosis. Again you are too ignorant to comprehend basic
language. I questioned the proclamation that the cat would have this
condition for life based solely on *one* incident, which is completely
valid.
Just because you blindly follow whatever a vet or Hills tells you
without doing any research or using common sense doesn't mean others
should.

snip the rest of Gaubsters typical attempt to start an argument over
food

Megan



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  #22  
Old July 16th 04, 05:38 PM
Steve G
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wrote in message ...
Funaba et al. (2001) found that the
digestibility of corn gluten meal and fish
meal were not significantly different. (...)


If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly
valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact
that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal.


I see. So, CGM doesn't count even thought it's extracted from corn?
Not sure what your logic is on this one. And *all* cat foods contain
more vegetable or vegetable-derived matter than just CGM.

Anyway: How about polenta - see Riond et al. (2003)? According to
these chaps, cats can digest polenta.

Or, the appropriately-named LaFlamme & Long (2004) [Vet Ther 5, 43-51]
who speak of 'a highly digestible, moderate-carbohydrate diet', and
'highly digestible, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet'. The research
did come out of Purina, so those with tinfoil wrapping can summarily
dismiss the paper if they so wish.

Another paper by Funaba et al. (2004) [Am J Vet Res 65: 138-142]
suggests that carbs are not optimal, but because they may facilitate
urolith formation, not because the carbs are 'indigestible'.

Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read the abstract in each case.

Many contain any number of things such as ground corn, rice, soybean
mill run and other such non-essentials that aren't going to be fully
digested. The bottom line here is that if we feed cats food that is as
close to what is *appropriate for the species* (corn, rice, etc. is
not), instead of forcing them to consume foods that are completely
contrary to what a *strict carnivore* should be eating


If cats could indeed digest carbs poorly or not at all, I think that
we wouldn't have quite as many obese (indoor) cats as we do, given the
popularity of dry foods.

Not sure that cats eat sweet potatoes in their natural environment
(Wellness) either, or perhaps they have hidden digging talents. And
peas (Natural Life)! Yes, I always have to shoo the cats away from the
pea-patch, always swiping the pods, the buggers. How about dried kelp
(Newman's Own), doubtless caught be those wily aquacats. Or guar gum
(basically everything). Brown rice, cranberry meal (Felidae). Repeat
to fade.

Not sure that a cat could bring down a cow or sheep either, but who's
to say what ambitious felines are out there...

, a lot of the
problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD,
UTI's, etc. would be few.


Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up.

Now, I do actually agree with you that feeding a species appropriate
diet is an appropriate [sic] thing to do, but if you try to justify
this by assigning all manner of ills to carbs - well, there just ain't
the evidence AFAICT. Do you have any cites?

Will you now be making justifications for why
a cow should eat meat?


For better or worse, many animals raised for human consumption are
indeed forced to eat a species inappropriate diet.

Steve.
  #23  
Old July 16th 04, 05:38 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote in message ...
Funaba et al. (2001) found that the
digestibility of corn gluten meal and fish
meal were not significantly different. (...)


If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly
valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact
that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal.


I see. So, CGM doesn't count even thought it's extracted from corn?
Not sure what your logic is on this one. And *all* cat foods contain
more vegetable or vegetable-derived matter than just CGM.

Anyway: How about polenta - see Riond et al. (2003)? According to
these chaps, cats can digest polenta.

Or, the appropriately-named LaFlamme & Long (2004) [Vet Ther 5, 43-51]
who speak of 'a highly digestible, moderate-carbohydrate diet', and
'highly digestible, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet'. The research
did come out of Purina, so those with tinfoil wrapping can summarily
dismiss the paper if they so wish.

Another paper by Funaba et al. (2004) [Am J Vet Res 65: 138-142]
suggests that carbs are not optimal, but because they may facilitate
urolith formation, not because the carbs are 'indigestible'.

Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read the abstract in each case.

Many contain any number of things such as ground corn, rice, soybean
mill run and other such non-essentials that aren't going to be fully
digested. The bottom line here is that if we feed cats food that is as
close to what is *appropriate for the species* (corn, rice, etc. is
not), instead of forcing them to consume foods that are completely
contrary to what a *strict carnivore* should be eating


If cats could indeed digest carbs poorly or not at all, I think that
we wouldn't have quite as many obese (indoor) cats as we do, given the
popularity of dry foods.

Not sure that cats eat sweet potatoes in their natural environment
(Wellness) either, or perhaps they have hidden digging talents. And
peas (Natural Life)! Yes, I always have to shoo the cats away from the
pea-patch, always swiping the pods, the buggers. How about dried kelp
(Newman's Own), doubtless caught be those wily aquacats. Or guar gum
(basically everything). Brown rice, cranberry meal (Felidae). Repeat
to fade.

Not sure that a cat could bring down a cow or sheep either, but who's
to say what ambitious felines are out there...

, a lot of the
problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD,
UTI's, etc. would be few.


Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up.

Now, I do actually agree with you that feeding a species appropriate
diet is an appropriate [sic] thing to do, but if you try to justify
this by assigning all manner of ills to carbs - well, there just ain't
the evidence AFAICT. Do you have any cites?

Will you now be making justifications for why
a cow should eat meat?


For better or worse, many animals raised for human consumption are
indeed forced to eat a species inappropriate diet.

Steve.
  #24  
Old July 17th 04, 05:18 AM
Devlin Tay
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks to everyone who gave their input. It was good to get such a diverse
(and sometimes contradictory) range of views. Even the vets (and there were
several of them from the same vet practice who examined Toby) couldn't all
agree upon what the problem(s) might be, so I guess I shouldn't feel guilty
about being all confused.

Toby first got ill about 2 months ago - I noticed he had been going to the
litter tray every few minutes - I carted him off to the vet immediately,
where the first vet took a urine sample and tested it for crystals and/or
bacteria. That first test came back positive for bacteria but negative for
crystals. Toby was put on antibiotics, but no change of diet was
recommended (he was being fed IAMS dried and Whiskas Advance wet). He had
an anti-inflammation shot as well, and the frequent litter tray visits
stopped - he got back to his normal routine of 2/3 times of weeing a day.

A few weeks later, when Toby went to the clinic for a follow-up urine test
after completing his course of antibiotics, a second vet discovered that
Toby was badly constipated and had a distended colon. (Toby had always
poo'd every other day - I simply accepted that as his normal routine, I
never suspected he might be constipated. He never showed any signs of
straining or pain when he poo'd before.) After Toby failed to poo for 4
days in a row (despite being treated with both lactulose and cisapride), a
third and fourth vet (from the same clinic) recommended an enema under
anaesthesia - this was duly administered after an x-ray was taken. The last
two vets said the x-ray was inconclusive for a megacolon diagnosis, although
Toby's colon was distended.

Meanwhile, the second urine test came back - Toby had struvite crystals AND
bacteria! Vet no. 2 decided that the bacteria could be lab contamination,
so no additional antibiotics were prescribed. So the decision was made to
put Toby on the Hill's dried w/d and wet r/d combination (both had higher
fibre, are formulated to keep urine urine pH at 6.2 to 6.4, and the wet r/d
would ensure Toby has sufficient fluid intake).

Fast-forward to two weeks later - a third urine test this week showed Toby's
urine is free from either bacteria or struvite crystals. Phew! However,
vet no. 2 felt that it would be wise to continue with the Hill's diet as
well as the lactulose and cisapride treatment for the foreseeable future as
Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once
every 1 to 1.5 days).

Three different urine tests yielding 3 different results, on top of a
possible idiopathic megacolon diagnosis - the vets don't have a clue why
Toby's constipation developed nor why it progressed to the almost megacolon
stage. It's all pretty much guess-work at this stage - keeping my fingers
crossed that Toby's bowel movements will go back to normal eventually and he
can be safely taken off the cisapride. (Cisapride is expensive and has been
suspected of causing a few human deaths and withdrawn from the human market
so it is not easy to get except thru vets, but lactulose is just a synthetic
sugar and unlikely to cause any long term harm, plus it is much cheaper and
easier to obtain.)

It has been a very stressful couple of months for this daddy!

Devlin
Perth, Australia


  #25  
Old July 17th 04, 05:18 AM
Devlin Tay
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks to everyone who gave their input. It was good to get such a diverse
(and sometimes contradictory) range of views. Even the vets (and there were
several of them from the same vet practice who examined Toby) couldn't all
agree upon what the problem(s) might be, so I guess I shouldn't feel guilty
about being all confused.

Toby first got ill about 2 months ago - I noticed he had been going to the
litter tray every few minutes - I carted him off to the vet immediately,
where the first vet took a urine sample and tested it for crystals and/or
bacteria. That first test came back positive for bacteria but negative for
crystals. Toby was put on antibiotics, but no change of diet was
recommended (he was being fed IAMS dried and Whiskas Advance wet). He had
an anti-inflammation shot as well, and the frequent litter tray visits
stopped - he got back to his normal routine of 2/3 times of weeing a day.

A few weeks later, when Toby went to the clinic for a follow-up urine test
after completing his course of antibiotics, a second vet discovered that
Toby was badly constipated and had a distended colon. (Toby had always
poo'd every other day - I simply accepted that as his normal routine, I
never suspected he might be constipated. He never showed any signs of
straining or pain when he poo'd before.) After Toby failed to poo for 4
days in a row (despite being treated with both lactulose and cisapride), a
third and fourth vet (from the same clinic) recommended an enema under
anaesthesia - this was duly administered after an x-ray was taken. The last
two vets said the x-ray was inconclusive for a megacolon diagnosis, although
Toby's colon was distended.

Meanwhile, the second urine test came back - Toby had struvite crystals AND
bacteria! Vet no. 2 decided that the bacteria could be lab contamination,
so no additional antibiotics were prescribed. So the decision was made to
put Toby on the Hill's dried w/d and wet r/d combination (both had higher
fibre, are formulated to keep urine urine pH at 6.2 to 6.4, and the wet r/d
would ensure Toby has sufficient fluid intake).

Fast-forward to two weeks later - a third urine test this week showed Toby's
urine is free from either bacteria or struvite crystals. Phew! However,
vet no. 2 felt that it would be wise to continue with the Hill's diet as
well as the lactulose and cisapride treatment for the foreseeable future as
Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once
every 1 to 1.5 days).

Three different urine tests yielding 3 different results, on top of a
possible idiopathic megacolon diagnosis - the vets don't have a clue why
Toby's constipation developed nor why it progressed to the almost megacolon
stage. It's all pretty much guess-work at this stage - keeping my fingers
crossed that Toby's bowel movements will go back to normal eventually and he
can be safely taken off the cisapride. (Cisapride is expensive and has been
suspected of causing a few human deaths and withdrawn from the human market
so it is not easy to get except thru vets, but lactulose is just a synthetic
sugar and unlikely to cause any long term harm, plus it is much cheaper and
easier to obtain.)

It has been a very stressful couple of months for this daddy!

Devlin
Perth, Australia


  #28  
Old July 18th 04, 05:12 AM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

From:

Apparently it didn't occur to you that
managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things.


Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to
stop and think, now aren't you?

Let's see what the OP found out:

------------
Meanwhile, the second urine test came back - Toby had struvite crystals AND
bacteria! Vet no. 2 decided that the bacteria could be lab contamination,
so no additional antibiotics were prescribed. So the decision was made to
put Toby on the Hill's dried w/d and wet r/d combination (both had higher
fibre, are formulated to keep urine urine pH at 6.2 to 6.4, and the wet r/d
would ensure Toby has sufficient fluid intake).

Fast-forward to two weeks later - a third urine test this week showed Toby's
urine is free from either bacteria or struvite crystals. Phew! However,
vet no. 2 felt that it would be wise to continue with the Hill's diet as
well as the lactulose and cisapride treatment for the foreseeable future as
Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once
every 1 to 1.5 days).
-----------------

Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once
again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark.

First of all, I have a real big problem with
a vet that proclaims a cat has to be on a
special food/drugs for "the rest of its life"
because of *one* incident of constipation.



Have you seen the test results yourself?
How can you diagnose over the internet?


Just because you blindly follow whatever a vet or Hills tells you
without doing any research or using common sense doesn't mean others
should.


....and what research did you do on THIS particular case?? None, because you
didn't examine the animal personally, nor did you have access to the cat's
records. Pull your head out, Megan.

snip the rest of Gaubsters typical attempt to start an argument over
food


Again, you're putting words into people's mouths. I'm simply questioning your
arrogance.
  #29  
Old July 18th 04, 05:12 AM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

From:

Apparently it didn't occur to you that
managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things.


Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to
stop and think, now aren't you?

Let's see what the OP found out:

------------
Meanwhile, the second urine test came back - Toby had struvite crystals AND
bacteria! Vet no. 2 decided that the bacteria could be lab contamination,
so no additional antibiotics were prescribed. So the decision was made to
put Toby on the Hill's dried w/d and wet r/d combination (both had higher
fibre, are formulated to keep urine urine pH at 6.2 to 6.4, and the wet r/d
would ensure Toby has sufficient fluid intake).

Fast-forward to two weeks later - a third urine test this week showed Toby's
urine is free from either bacteria or struvite crystals. Phew! However,
vet no. 2 felt that it would be wise to continue with the Hill's diet as
well as the lactulose and cisapride treatment for the foreseeable future as
Toby's colon continues to be distended (although he now poos regularly once
every 1 to 1.5 days).
-----------------

Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once
again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark.

First of all, I have a real big problem with
a vet that proclaims a cat has to be on a
special food/drugs for "the rest of its life"
because of *one* incident of constipation.



Have you seen the test results yourself?
How can you diagnose over the internet?


Just because you blindly follow whatever a vet or Hills tells you
without doing any research or using common sense doesn't mean others
should.


....and what research did you do on THIS particular case?? None, because you
didn't examine the animal personally, nor did you have access to the cat's
records. Pull your head out, Megan.

snip the rest of Gaubsters typical attempt to start an argument over
food


Again, you're putting words into people's mouths. I'm simply questioning your
arrogance.
  #30  
Old July 18th 04, 05:14 AM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

From: (Steve G)

Well, Steve, I have to agree with the points you made debating Megan. She
clearly is more interested in ingredients vs. nutrients and is a carbophobic:



Funaba et al. (2001) found that the
digestibility of corn gluten meal and fish
meal were not significantly different. (...)


If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly
valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact
that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal.


I see. So, CGM doesn't count even thought it's extracted from corn?
Not sure what your logic is on this one. And *all* cat foods contain
more vegetable or vegetable-derived matter than just CGM.


Another paper by Funaba et al. (2004) [Am J Vet Res 65: 138-142]
suggests that carbs are not optimal, but because they may facilitate
urolith formation, not because the carbs are 'indigestible'.


If cats could indeed digest carbs poorly or not at all, I think that
we wouldn't have quite as many obese (indoor) cats as we do, given the
popularity of dry foods.


Uh oh, you just used logic on Megan!!

Not sure that cats eat sweet potatoes in their natural environment
(Wellness) either, or perhaps they have hidden digging talents. And
peas (Natural Life)! Yes, I always have to shoo the cats away from the
pea-patch, always swiping the pods, the buggers. How about dried kelp
(Newman's Own), doubtless caught be those wily aquacats. Or guar gum
(basically everything). Brown rice, cranberry meal (Felidae). Repeat
to fade.


Touche!

, a lot of the
problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD,
UTI's, etc. would be few.


Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up.


Checkmate!
 




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