Holiday Cards (Felinitations)

On Sep 4, 2:17*pm, "Christina Websell"
wrote:
"Yowie" wrote in message

...





Innews:jvGdna6odeTz2gnXnZ2dnUVZ8iWdnZ2d@brightview .com,
Adrian typed:
Christina Websell wrote:
ictor Martinez wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:
Not "holiday cards" what's that supposed to mean?

It means that not everybody in the group is a christian or
celebrates x-mas.

Yes, I realised that already.
But the fact remains that if you send out cards in December they are
Christmas cards, whether or not you celebrate Christmas, that's what
they are.

Tweed

Absolute nonsense, if you don't believe in the existance of Christ
how can they be Christmas cards?

I've received Hanukkah cards and Yule cards from RPCA's December Card
Exchange in previous years. These are not, to my mind, *Christmas* cards.
And I really like receiving non-Christmas December Celebration cards.
Kwanzaa doesnt' happen here, and I don't know if part of Kwanzaa involves
sending greeting cards, but if it does, can someone send me a Kwanzaa
card?

Are you trying to be provocative?

It annoys me intensely that Christmas is hijacked.
It's not acceptable.

Tweed- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, Tweed, you're the one being provacative, and I don't know
whether
it's your intention, but you're coming off as just being stubborn and
argumentive.

You aregue that cards sent in December cannot possibly be called
"Holiday cards",
yet you say non-Christians can't possibly refer to their cards a
"Christmas cards."

You don't like the method that Yowie has developed to compile and
distribute the
list. The way I see it, Yowie has gone to a *lot* of trouble, and she
should
be thanked, not griped at, for taking the extra time (which she
doesn't have)
to make that list available to everyone, in whatever way she chooses
to do it.
"Felinations" is only the name Yowie created for the new list
distribution.

I hope everything is well with you. This seems so insignificant
to get all heated up about. It's not a mandatory thing.

REad Marina's post. Christians don't exactly have a monopoly on
celebrations
in December and weren't the first to do it. After all, there's no
Biblical evidence that Christ was even born
on December 25. Or even in the winter.

Sherry

Marina wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:

It annoys me intensely that Christmas is hijacked.
It's not acceptable.


It seems to be very hard for you to acknowledge that it was the
Christians who hijacked the ancient solstice feast to celebrate the
birth of their prophet.


We didn't. We accepted some of the older traditions brought along by
converts.

--
Cheryl

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:51:43 -0700, Sherry wrote:

REad Marina's post. Christians don't exactly have a monopoly on
celebrations
in December and weren't the first to do it. After all, there's no
Biblical evidence that Christ was even born on December 25. Or even in
the winter.

The Biblical accounts don't mention the time of year, but the description
of shepherds staying out in the fields overnight with their flocks
suggests warm weather. Standard winter practice in first-century
Palestine was to gather the sheep into a stone-walled pen at night, which
gave the sheep some shelter from the wind and allowed the shepherd to
spend the night indoors.

The earliest mention of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th comes
from the "Chronography of 354", an illuminated manuscript produced in
Rome in the year 354 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronography_of_354).

--
John F. Eldredge --
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

On Sep 6, 10:12*pm, "John F. Eldredge" wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:51:43 -0700, Sherry wrote:
REad Marina's post. Christians don't exactly have a monopoly on
celebrations
in December and weren't the first to do it. After all, there's no
Biblical evidence that Christ was even born on December 25. Or even in
the winter.

The Biblical accounts don't mention the time of year, but the description
of shepherds staying out in the fields overnight with their flocks
suggests warm weather. *Standard winter practice in first-century
Palestine was to gather the sheep into a stone-walled pen at night, which
gave the sheep some shelter from the wind and allowed the shepherd to
spend the night indoors.

The earliest mention of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th comes
from the "Chronography of 354", an illuminated manuscript produced in
Rome in the year 354 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronography_of_354).

--
John F. Eldredge --
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

Thanks, John. I remember reading something about that. Also there was
a controversy
over whether the citizens would have been required to travel to the
cities of their
birth during winter.
I did also read that the Apostles predicted that Christians would
start to coincide the
celebration of Christ's birth with pagan celebrations in December,
simply to make
Christianity more palapable to the pagans. I do not know which passage
from the Bible
this is from; I wish I did. Interesting stuff.

Sherry

Sherry wrote:
On Sep 6, 10:12 pm, "John F. Eldredge" wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:51:43 -0700, Sherry wrote:
REad Marina's post. Christians don't exactly have a monopoly on
celebrations
in December and weren't the first to do it. After all, there's no
Biblical evidence that Christ was even born on December 25. Or even in
the winter.
The Biblical accounts don't mention the time of year, but the description
of shepherds staying out in the fields overnight with their flocks
suggests warm weather. Standard winter practice in first-century
Palestine was to gather the sheep into a stone-walled pen at night, which
gave the sheep some shelter from the wind and allowed the shepherd to
spend the night indoors.

The earliest mention of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th comes
from the "Chronography of 354", an illuminated manuscript produced in
Rome in the year 354 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronography_of_354).

--
John F. Eldredge --
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

Thanks, John. I remember reading something about that. Also there was
a controversy
over whether the citizens would have been required to travel to the
cities of their
birth during winter.
I did also read that the Apostles predicted that Christians would
start to coincide the
celebration of Christ's birth with pagan celebrations in December,
simply to make
Christianity more palapable to the pagans. I do not know which passage
from the Bible
this is from; I wish I did. Interesting stuff.

I don't recall anything in the Gospels predicting when Christmas would
be celebrated, although there's lots about fulfilling Old Testament
prophecies, none of which have anything to do about the exact date or
reaching out to the pagans. It was Paul, not one of the twelve Apostles,
who reached out to the pagans, and very controversial it was at the
time, too. And I don't remember him writing a thing about the date of
Christmas, although he wrote about other pagan cultural issues, such as
not being circumcized, being willing to eat meat used in sacrifices, and
behaving in a disruptive fashion during services. If you find out what
verse is being used to support that claim, I'd like to know.

I *have* heard that many missionaries allowed keeping old traditions
that didn't conflict with Christianity or which could be used to teach
Christianity (and many didn't), but nothing about Biblical precedents.
In fact, *because* there are no Biblical statements on the subject, some
Christians don't celebrate Christmas (or Hallowe'en) at all. I remember
it was quite a problem for one family in my former hometown when one
spouse converted to a church that held these views and the other
remained in a more mainstream church.

--
Cheryl

In ,
Christina Websell typed:
"Yowie" wrote in message
...
In om,
Adrian typed:
Christina Websell wrote:
ictor Martinez wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:
Not "holiday cards" what's that supposed to mean?

It means that not everybody in the group is a christian or
celebrates x-mas.

Yes, I realised that already.
But the fact remains that if you send out cards in December they
are Christmas cards, whether or not you celebrate Christmas,
that's what they are.

Tweed

Absolute nonsense, if you don't believe in the existance of Christ
how can they be Christmas cards?

I've received Hanukkah cards and Yule cards from RPCA's December Card
Exchange in previous years. These are not, to my mind, *Christmas*
cards. And I really like receiving non-Christmas December
Celebration cards. Kwanzaa doesnt' happen here, and I don't know if
part of Kwanzaa involves sending greeting cards, but if it does, can
someone send me a Kwanzaa card?


Are you trying to be provocative?

No. Are you?

It annoys me intensely that Christmas is hijacked.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am truly sorry you feel that way.

Me, I love the diversity. I *want* to see how different folks celebrate, I
*want* to be involved in these different traditions and ceremonies because
there's always something new to learn even if I don't adopt them myself.
There is nothing that can change my own feelings and thoughts about
Christmas, and my own relationship with my deity, but I'm always fascinated
by how other people go about such things - because deep down, its the same
thing. During winter solstice, regardless of the symbols we use and the
stories we tell, we humans are celebrating being alive at the toughest time
of year. We're celebrating our families and friends, our bonds and ties with
each other. We're being grateful for what we've been given and humbled by
how fragile life really is. We're thankful for the sacrifices that have been
made for us and the blessings we've received. I don't know of a winter
celebration that *doesn't* include all of this, and if some people use it
only as a giant excuse to get woefully drunk and gorge themselves on food,
what they are doing doesn't take away one iota from the majesty I always
find in December, even if it is summer solstice for me.

If there is any message for me in other people and other cultures
celebrating December the 25th (or thereabouts) in ways that are different
and unsual to me or it is that "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth
peace, good will toward men" is truly a universal message. I think we should
all celebrate as if it were the solstice more often.

Yowie

Yowie wrote:

Christina Websell typed:

It annoys me intensely that Christmas is hijacked.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am truly sorry you feel that way.

Me, I love the diversity. I *want* to see how different folks celebrate, I
*want* to be involved in these different traditions and ceremonies because
there's always something new to learn even if I don't adopt them myself.
There is nothing that can change my own feelings and thoughts about
Christmas, and my own relationship with my deity, but I'm always fascinated
by how other people go about such things - because deep down, its the same
thing. During winter solstice, regardless of the symbols we use and the
stories we tell, we humans are celebrating being alive at the toughest time
of year.

[snip]

If there is any message for me in other people and other cultures
celebrating December the 25th (or thereabouts) in ways that are different
and unsual to me or it is that "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth
peace, good will toward men" is truly a universal message. I think we should
all celebrate as if it were the solstice more often.

I think that to really appreciate diversity, it's important to remember
that other people not only celebrate different holidays, but that their
most important holidays don't necessarily fall in December. I'll use
Jewish holidays as an example since that's what I know best. Yes, Jews
do celebrate Chanukah in December. But Chanukah is a minor holiday. In
modern times it has gained a certain importance simply because of its
proximity to Christmas. But it's not a Jewish Christmas and shouldn't be
treated as though it is.

To truly appreciate and embrace diversity, don't send a Chanukah
card or a "holiday" card. Say "L'shana Tovah" at Rosh Hashana ("happy
new year" at the Jewish new year), which is in September. Wish someone
a happy Passover during that time. That one's more likely to happen,
actually, because it coincides with Easter, so diversity-minded folks
have a cue to remember that there are other traditions. It's harder to
remember this in September/October, but in fact the first 10 days of
the Jewish calendar are called the High Holy Days, and are the most
important days of the year.

I do get it that people want to include others in their holiday wishes,
and that is very well-intentioned and I appreciate that. I'm just taking
it a step further, to point out that other holidays that happen to be
celebrated at the same time as Christmas are *not necessarily parallel*
in terms of importance. Which is the main reason I don't care for the
whole "holiday" thing, as it assumes that everyone's doing some major
thing during "The Holidays". So the workplace has a big party in December,
they decorate it with strings of lights and holly wreaths, serve eggnog
and have a gift exchange, but they call it a "holiday" party because
they want to be inclusive. Hopefully you can see that this isn't really
inclusive, because it's really a Christmas party, they're just not
allowed to call it that.

I don't mean to say that other holidays celebrated in December are
meaningless and should be totally ignored. I just think they should be
seen in perspective, relative to the other holidays in each culture's
own calendar.

Thanks,
Joyce

--
Excuse for Not Doing One's Homework:
My pit bull, here, ate it. -- J.D. Berry, Springfield

wrote in message

Yowie wrote:

Christina Websell typed:

It annoys me intensely that Christmas is hijacked.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am truly sorry you feel that
way.

Me, I love the diversity. I *want* to see how different folks
celebrate, I *want* to be involved in these different traditions and
ceremonies because there's always something new to learn even if I
don't adopt them myself. There is nothing that can change my own
feelings and thoughts about Christmas, and my own relationship with
my deity, but I'm always fascinated by how other people go about
such things - because deep down, its the same thing. During winter
solstice, regardless of the symbols we use and the stories we tell,
we humans are celebrating being alive at the toughest time of year.

[snip]

If there is any message for me in other people and other cultures
celebrating December the 25th (or thereabouts) in ways that are
different and unsual to me or it is that "Glory to God in the
highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men" is truly a
universal message. I think we should all celebrate as if it were the
solstice more often.

I think that to really appreciate diversity, it's important to
remember that other people not only celebrate different holidays, but
that their most important holidays don't necessarily fall in
December. I'll use Jewish holidays as an example since that's what I
know best. Yes, Jews
do celebrate Chanukah in December. But Chanukah is a minor holiday. In
modern times it has gained a certain importance simply because of its
proximity to Christmas. But it's not a Jewish Christmas and shouldn't
be treated as though it is.

To truly appreciate and embrace diversity, don't send a Chanukah
card or a "holiday" card. Say "L'shana Tovah" at Rosh Hashana ("happy
new year" at the Jewish new year), which is in September. Wish someone
a happy Passover during that time. That one's more likely to happen,
actually, because it coincides with Easter, so diversity-minded folks
have a cue to remember that there are other traditions. It's harder to
remember this in September/October, but in fact the first 10 days of
the Jewish calendar are called the High Holy Days, and are the most
important days of the year.

I do get it that people want to include others in their holiday
wishes, and that is very well-intentioned and I appreciate that. I'm
just taking it a step further, to point out that other holidays that
happen to be celebrated at the same time as Christmas are *not
necessarily parallel* in terms of importance. Which is the main
reason I don't care for the whole "holiday" thing, as it assumes that
everyone's doing some major thing during "The Holidays". So the
workplace has a big party in December, they decorate it with strings
of lights and holly wreaths, serve eggnog and have a gift exchange,
but they call it a "holiday" party because
they want to be inclusive. Hopefully you can see that this isn't
really inclusive, because it's really a Christmas party, they're just
not allowed to call it that.

I don't mean to say that other holidays celebrated in December are
meaningless and should be totally ignored. I just think they should be
seen in perspective, relative to the other holidays in each culture's
own calendar.

Good points, Joyce, and thankyou for giving an alternate perspective. Its
really hard to seperate what is cultural (and therefore not universal) and
what applies to 'everyone' when you are fully immersed in the dominant
culture and don't get many oppurtunities to really see it from another's
point view. I really appreciate you & you POV on this and sorry that my own
biases, much as I try to overcome them, still come up - mostly because I
don't even know they are there. Thankyou for the eye-opener, and thankyou
again for doing so in an understanding and sensitive way.

Speaking of unintentional offence, Dave Y always apologised for any offence
he had caused. It was a mystery to me as to why - Dave Y I thougth was
*incapable* of causing offence - but he was observing Yom Kippur I beleive.
Whilst I really don't understand the significance of the holiday as if I
were Jewish, the idea of seeking out those who we may have trespassed
against and seeking forgiveness always struck me as a wonderful and very
humble act, something that I try to do when I remember (even if its not
YomKippur)

Yowie
--
If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many
pancakes can you fit in a doghouse? None, icecream doesn't have bones.

wrote:
Yowie wrote:

Christina Websell typed:

It annoys me intensely that Christmas is hijacked.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am truly sorry you feel that way.

Me, I love the diversity. I *want* to see how different folks celebrate, I
*want* to be involved in these different traditions and ceremonies because
there's always something new to learn even if I don't adopt them myself.
There is nothing that can change my own feelings and thoughts about
Christmas, and my own relationship with my deity, but I'm always fascinated
by how other people go about such things - because deep down, its the same
thing. During winter solstice, regardless of the symbols we use and the
stories we tell, we humans are celebrating being alive at the toughest time
of year.

[snip]

If there is any message for me in other people and other cultures
celebrating December the 25th (or thereabouts) in ways that are different
and unsual to me or it is that "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth
peace, good will toward men" is truly a universal message. I think we should
all celebrate as if it were the solstice more often.

I think that to really appreciate diversity, it's important to remember
that other people not only celebrate different holidays, but that their
most important holidays don't necessarily fall in December. I'll use
Jewish holidays as an example since that's what I know best. Yes, Jews
do celebrate Chanukah in December. But Chanukah is a minor holiday. In
modern times it has gained a certain importance simply because of its
proximity to Christmas. But it's not a Jewish Christmas and shouldn't be
treated as though it is.

To truly appreciate and embrace diversity, don't send a Chanukah
card or a "holiday" card. Say "L'shana Tovah" at Rosh Hashana ("happy
new year" at the Jewish new year), which is in September. Wish someone
a happy Passover during that time. That one's more likely to happen,
actually, because it coincides with Easter, so diversity-minded folks
have a cue to remember that there are other traditions. It's harder to
remember this in September/October, but in fact the first 10 days of
the Jewish calendar are called the High Holy Days, and are the most
important days of the year.

I do get it that people want to include others in their holiday wishes,
and that is very well-intentioned and I appreciate that. I'm just taking
it a step further, to point out that other holidays that happen to be
celebrated at the same time as Christmas are *not necessarily parallel*
in terms of importance. Which is the main reason I don't care for the
whole "holiday" thing, as it assumes that everyone's doing some major
thing during "The Holidays". So the workplace has a big party in December,
they decorate it with strings of lights and holly wreaths, serve eggnog
and have a gift exchange, but they call it a "holiday" party because
they want to be inclusive. Hopefully you can see that this isn't really
inclusive, because it's really a Christmas party, they're just not
allowed to call it that.

I don't mean to say that other holidays celebrated in December are
meaningless and should be totally ignored. I just think they should be
seen in perspective, relative to the other holidays in each culture's
own calendar.

Thanks,
Joyce

Thanks for all the information.

To go a bit off-topic, you've made me think a bit about 'inclusive'.
That's a term I've come to dislike intensely, because some people talk
as though they mean 'includes everybody' when they use it, when really
they mean 'includes people who think the way we do, unlike those other
people over there, who are not inclusive'. And naturally, the people
they are defining themselves against, so to speak, aren't really
included in 'inclusive'. If you follow what I mean. 'Inclusive' is often
used to simply draw the line between us and them in a different place
while pretending to erase the line entirely.

Now, when you say the holiday party isn't inclusive because it's really
a Christmas party, I'd say 'it depends'. If you're talking about the
kind of party that is really essentially secular in spite of the
addition of a decorated tree and even Santa Claus, I'd say it's not
really a Christmas party in any religious sense, and although I suppose
it could be called 'Christmas' because it happens to take part around
then, it's just as well to call it a holiday party. That's neither
inclusive nor exclusive, it's just descriptive. Like a Labour Day party
which isn't centred around a Labour Day parade and singing union songs,
or a national day party in which you don't spend at least some of the
time listening to the official speech from your national leader or
telling the children the story of the founding of your country.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't have any trouble with calling,
say, the office Christmas party a holiday party because I don't consider
such events to be particularly Christmassy. They just happen then. I
know some people consider changing the name to be an act of
inclusiveness, but I don't think is generally is, although for reasons
other than yours.
--
Cheryl

Yowie wrote:
In ,
Christina Websell typed:
"Yowie" wrote in message
...
In om,
Adrian typed:
Christina Websell wrote:
ictor Martinez wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:
Not "holiday cards" what's that supposed to mean?

It means that not everybody in the group is a christian or
celebrates x-mas.

Yes, I realised that already.
But the fact remains that if you send out cards in December they
are Christmas cards, whether or not you celebrate Christmas,
that's what they are.

Tweed

Absolute nonsense, if you don't believe in the existance of Christ
how can they be Christmas cards?

I've received Hanukkah cards and Yule cards from RPCA's December
Card Exchange in previous years. These are not, to my mind,
*Christmas* cards. And I really like receiving non-Christmas
December Celebration cards. Kwanzaa doesnt' happen here, and I
don't know if part of Kwanzaa involves sending greeting cards, but
if it does, can someone send me a Kwanzaa card?


Are you trying to be provocative?

No. Are you?

No. I just get fed up by the idea that it's not cool to mention Christmas
or Christianity now.

Tweed