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#11
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"Liz" wrote in message om... That´s how much Hill´s knows biochemistry: nothing at all. . LOL! Your delusions of grandeur are showing again! Of course a backwoods au naturel fanatic like you with no veterinary training whatsoever knows more about feline nutrition than board-certified Diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition and Diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine! ROTFL! ....and you wonder why vets who read your asinine theories and probably most people other than other deluded au naturel fanatics) think you're a "nut case"! LOL! |
#12
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Liz wrote:
Yes of course we wouldn't want to leave out the fact that chicken by product meal is MORE digestible than plain chicken and contains less ground up bone tissue ? good point. Excellent point. Lets all free feed our cats Science Diet for two weeks and Wellness or Felidae for two weeks and weigh their stools daily. Both Wellness and Felidae produce much less stools than Science Diet. That´s how digestible they are. And this is something anyone here can try at home and see for themselves. What a task! do we pick off the litter that clings to the stool or just include it in the weight totals? ;-) Ok, I've been feeding my cat California Natural... food that claims to be all natural and has chicken as the first and second ingredients. By golly this stuff sounds good enough for me to eat. My cat eats it... never been particulary crazy about it but she doesn't turn it down either. Then I started feeding her a 75% California Natural & 25% Science Diet Nature's Best. Everything changed around mealtime... she now meows for me to fill up the dish. She now seems to try to ferret out the Science Diet chunks from the California Natural. If I have no treats on hand, she will happily consider the pure Science Diet Nature's Best chunks as a treat. The Science Diet Nature's Best has better calcium/phosphorus levels as compared to California Natural. If this Science Diet makes my cat happy around mealtime and is a reasonable food as it does appear to be... I see no reason not to feed it. Not only that but this food is available everywhere... and I mean everywhere. I live in northern Canada and my choices are very limited... but Science Diet is the best of those choices... without having to resort to mail ordering food. Are the stools increased in volume... don't know yet. She will have to be on 100% Science Diet before I can tell for sure. -- "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck |
#13
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Liz wrote:
Yes of course we wouldn't want to leave out the fact that chicken by product meal is MORE digestible than plain chicken and contains less ground up bone tissue ? good point. Excellent point. Lets all free feed our cats Science Diet for two weeks and Wellness or Felidae for two weeks and weigh their stools daily. Both Wellness and Felidae produce much less stools than Science Diet. That´s how digestible they are. And this is something anyone here can try at home and see for themselves. What a task! do we pick off the litter that clings to the stool or just include it in the weight totals? ;-) Ok, I've been feeding my cat California Natural... food that claims to be all natural and has chicken as the first and second ingredients. By golly this stuff sounds good enough for me to eat. My cat eats it... never been particulary crazy about it but she doesn't turn it down either. Then I started feeding her a 75% California Natural & 25% Science Diet Nature's Best. Everything changed around mealtime... she now meows for me to fill up the dish. She now seems to try to ferret out the Science Diet chunks from the California Natural. If I have no treats on hand, she will happily consider the pure Science Diet Nature's Best chunks as a treat. The Science Diet Nature's Best has better calcium/phosphorus levels as compared to California Natural. If this Science Diet makes my cat happy around mealtime and is a reasonable food as it does appear to be... I see no reason not to feed it. Not only that but this food is available everywhere... and I mean everywhere. I live in northern Canada and my choices are very limited... but Science Diet is the best of those choices... without having to resort to mail ordering food. Are the stools increased in volume... don't know yet. She will have to be on 100% Science Diet before I can tell for sure. -- "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck |
#15
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From: (Liz)
This philosophy of Hill´s (and some other companies) treating consumers as morons infuriates me. It shows how much the company respects their customer - nothing at all. They (customers) are all a bunch of easily-manipulated imbeciles. So let´s go ahead and launch the 15% carbs Atkin´s type diet even knowing it doesn´t work. Who cares? We are making money and that´s all that matters. Have you checked out Hill's newest "formula" called Advanced Protection? Ingredients: Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, corn meal, animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), dried egg product, chicken liver flavor, fish oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols and ascorbic acid), DL-methionine, L-lysine, natural flavor, taurine, L-cysteine, L-carnitine, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid, minerals (potassium chloride, calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate, salt, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), rosemary extract, beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin E supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of Vitamin C), niacin, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement). Again, it looks like another grain based diet, cooked to death, and then they throw some vitamins in. I still haven't figured out exacftly what dried egg product is, and once again, they add chicken liver "flavor" but no chicken liver. Animal fat could be from any source, who knows? Ah wait, I just found this website: http://www.hillssciencediet.info/DEFINITION.htm Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm |
#16
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Alison Perera wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve Crane) wrote: If you want to compare products you ought to compare products within the same category. Both Wellness and Felidae are "All Life Stage" foods, which means they have passed AFFCO testing for growth and are indeed "kitten" foods. Therefore the correct comparison would be to compare one growth food to another. Steve, Chris and I went around and around on this topic recently. What requirements are there for a product to pass the AAFCO (I assume that's what you mean) feed trial for growth, other than having 8 kittens consume the food for 10 weeks and show no significant nutritional deficiency or stunting of growth? Theoretically speaking, if one were to submit Science Diet Adult Maintenance to an AAFCO growth trial, would it have any chance of passing? -Alison in OH Alison, AAFCO has two methods of approving a food. For many years there was only one method and that involved an actual feeding trial. A few years ago AAFCO got weak (my personal opinion) and permitted a manufacturer to show that one food was similar to something else they already run through feeding trials and therefore it wasn't necessary to actually run a feeding trial. (Similar formulas expected to provide similar results philosophy) You can tell the difference because the legal AAFCO statement either uses the word "feeding" in the language of the statement or doesn't. There are essentially two forms of actual feeding trials. One is for growth and the other is for adult maintenance. There is no feeding trial for "All Life Stages". It is presumed that if a food can satisfactorily pass the more strenuous growth test than it will provide sufficient nutrition for adult maintenance. Feeding trial are not deigned ot look for long term effects of excessive levels of anything. The growth trial requires that puppies in the trial be fed the food and that blood tests be taken every week during the trial. PCV, RBC, WBC, and typical serum chemistries must remain within normal ranges during the entire trial period or the food fails. Puppies and kittens are growing at an enormous rate during this time and need vastly greater quantities of calcium, phosphorus, fat, protein etc than an adult dog or cat which isn't growing at such a prodigious rate. And no, it's not as simple as the *amount* of food needed. The ratio of protein to total energy intake is vastly different when you are doubling in size during the trial period. In contrast the adult trial requires the same blood test each week and must deliver the same consequences at the end of the trial, but the animals involved are not doubling their weight during the trial and thus need far fewer amounts of many nutrients. Science Diet adult products are designed and developed for adult animals, not puppies or kittens and thus would not be subjected to the growth trial. It would be purely a guess on my part, but I would guess some might pass and others might not. Science Diet puppy and kitten products could be labelled for "All Life Stages", however Hill's feels this may mislead a pet owner into feeding a growth product to an adult. Hill's has a tradition and history of treating disease with the Prescription Diet products. As a consequence the level so fnutrients like calcium and phosphorus that are so critical in renal failrue and other diseases get particular attention. As a consequence dietary development is always looking at the disease we see and trying to avoid them. 50 years ago we saw pets in veterinary clinics with examples of deficiencies in the diets, today we see only the results of excesses in the veterinary clinic. (Outside of the occasional animals dumped on the road and suffering from mal nutrition) |
#17
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Alison Perera wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve Crane) wrote: If you want to compare products you ought to compare products within the same category. Both Wellness and Felidae are "All Life Stage" foods, which means they have passed AFFCO testing for growth and are indeed "kitten" foods. Therefore the correct comparison would be to compare one growth food to another. Steve, Chris and I went around and around on this topic recently. What requirements are there for a product to pass the AAFCO (I assume that's what you mean) feed trial for growth, other than having 8 kittens consume the food for 10 weeks and show no significant nutritional deficiency or stunting of growth? Theoretically speaking, if one were to submit Science Diet Adult Maintenance to an AAFCO growth trial, would it have any chance of passing? -Alison in OH Alison, AAFCO has two methods of approving a food. For many years there was only one method and that involved an actual feeding trial. A few years ago AAFCO got weak (my personal opinion) and permitted a manufacturer to show that one food was similar to something else they already run through feeding trials and therefore it wasn't necessary to actually run a feeding trial. (Similar formulas expected to provide similar results philosophy) You can tell the difference because the legal AAFCO statement either uses the word "feeding" in the language of the statement or doesn't. There are essentially two forms of actual feeding trials. One is for growth and the other is for adult maintenance. There is no feeding trial for "All Life Stages". It is presumed that if a food can satisfactorily pass the more strenuous growth test than it will provide sufficient nutrition for adult maintenance. Feeding trial are not deigned ot look for long term effects of excessive levels of anything. The growth trial requires that puppies in the trial be fed the food and that blood tests be taken every week during the trial. PCV, RBC, WBC, and typical serum chemistries must remain within normal ranges during the entire trial period or the food fails. Puppies and kittens are growing at an enormous rate during this time and need vastly greater quantities of calcium, phosphorus, fat, protein etc than an adult dog or cat which isn't growing at such a prodigious rate. And no, it's not as simple as the *amount* of food needed. The ratio of protein to total energy intake is vastly different when you are doubling in size during the trial period. In contrast the adult trial requires the same blood test each week and must deliver the same consequences at the end of the trial, but the animals involved are not doubling their weight during the trial and thus need far fewer amounts of many nutrients. Science Diet adult products are designed and developed for adult animals, not puppies or kittens and thus would not be subjected to the growth trial. It would be purely a guess on my part, but I would guess some might pass and others might not. Science Diet puppy and kitten products could be labelled for "All Life Stages", however Hill's feels this may mislead a pet owner into feeding a growth product to an adult. Hill's has a tradition and history of treating disease with the Prescription Diet products. As a consequence the level so fnutrients like calcium and phosphorus that are so critical in renal failrue and other diseases get particular attention. As a consequence dietary development is always looking at the disease we see and trying to avoid them. 50 years ago we saw pets in veterinary clinics with examples of deficiencies in the diets, today we see only the results of excesses in the veterinary clinic. (Outside of the occasional animals dumped on the road and suffering from mal nutrition) |
#18
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#20
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