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  #1  
Old October 22nd 03, 07:23 PM
-L.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Reply for Phil

Bear with me. Google can't retrieve your OP for some reason.

"-L." wrote in message
. com...


They don't BUY it, it is sent from Hill's corporate office,
commensurate to the amount of product that is sold by the institution,
in this case, a hospital.


I can see you're not a business person...


I can see you like to make assumptions and jump to conclusions.

I have paper, ink, and equipment reps offering me tons (lirerally)

of gratis
products several times a month. In fact my film and plate supplier

*gave*
me 4 film processors and 6 plate processors (all worth over $20K)

for buying
my materials from them. Sounds good? Another supplier's offer was

more
than double in value, and others' were even higher, but I chose the

first
supplier, even though the cost of materials is higher, because the

products
and support are superior. I get similar offers from other reps in

my other
businesses.


I'm not going to risk my business and millions of dollars of future

revenue
for a few thousand dollars worth of free equipment for using shoddy

or less
than optimum materials. Do you actually believe a vet would risk

his
practice, reputation and years (and $) of education for a few

hundred or
even a few thousand dollars worth of "bennies", that he more than

likely
doesn't need or wouldn't buy anyway, on products that made his

clients' pets
sick?


I didn't say the food made the cats sick. What I said is that the
cats wouldn't eat it, it gave them stinky ****, and/or it got returned
for a number of reasons. He (the practice owner) fed it at the
hospital because it was cheap and he received freebies from Hills.


He'd be outta business in less than a year!


To be honest with you, I don't know where you get your information


You know exactly where I get my information. I have posted to the ngs
for years, worked for a feline specialty vet and have a lot of
experience with a number of cat issues. My experience was apparently
good enough in the past when it supported your other topics of
discussion.

and
figures from


AFAIK, I didn't post any "figures".

or what your agenda is, and frankly, I really don't care. If
you say from "personal experience", I can say with certainty, your

stories
are not remotely close to any arrangements that any of the vets I

work with
or have worked with over the years (and that's a lot of vets) had

with
Hill's.


Well, you aren't in the same market where we were, either. The
freebies the vet received weren't exactly common knowlege. In fact, I
worked there about 6 months before I was made privy to the actual
amount of stuff this guy received from them. If the patients knew the
freebies this guy got, they'd probably be horrified. I know I was.


As far as profits from the products go, most vets that I know and

work(ed)
with only sell prescription diets.


The vets I know who sell Hills also sell their maintenence diets.

And again, I can say with reasonable
certainty (one of my tenants is a vet), that the profit on these

products
barely, if even, offsets the cost of the space to store the products

--
canned products have a slighly higher profit : cost of space ratio

than dry
foods -- unless the vet own a big building.


Which the vet in question did. We had a store room for food.


There are other posts about Hills giving away free or low cost cat
food to vet students, as well as other freebies,


And that's a "bad" thing?


It reeks of inpropriety.

in the Google
archives. It's not exactly a secret.


You shouldn't believe everything you read in newsgroups...


Didn't say I did. But when enough independent sources say the same
thing, you can pretty much conclude there is a trend...

As I'm sure
you've noticed, many people have agendas...


The posts in question are not posted in circumstances where an agenda
is apparent. One that I can recall is from a vet who posts under her
own name and made FWIW comments in a non-cat newsgroup.

The only other freebies we ever received were from Bayer - Advantage
for free. IMO, that was dishonest as well.


What about companies that give their employees free cars and homes

or
apartments and other perks - such as medical benefits (which ain't

cheap!!)
to get people to work for them? I have a lawyer relative who

received a
condo in midtown Manhattan and a car - he can practically live on

his
expense account without hardly touching his salary! Are they all
"dishonest" too?


We are not talking about employees. We are talking about marketing
techniques.
Yes, I received offers for a lot of bennies from sales reps to use
their products when I did work in industry. Personally, I think it is
a marjorly slimy way to do business. The companies with the superior
products don't NEED to do so. Their products sell themselves.


I think you have a lot to learn about doing business in a highly

completive
world. Freebies, bennies and perks are a normal, if not essential,

part of
doing business...


And it creats situations of inpropriety. The Enrons of the world were
not created overnight. In fact, the major corporation I worked for
for 8 years had a specific policy that forbid employees from accepting
such perks because it was deemed unethical.

Because they suck. They get bashed because their products are crap,


If that were remotely true, Hill's products would be returned by

customers
by the truck loads to pet stores (Hill's offers a 100% money back

guarantee
like most other pet food manufactures).


My comment was in regard to the bashing of Hills in the newsgroups.
People complain about things that cause them grief.

Furthermore, at the vet where I worked, food was returned routinely.
Especially the more unpalatable Rx diets like W/D and I/D. C/D-S got
returned a lot because it was the Rx diet we sold the most.

And this I can with *absolute*
certainty, finding returned Hill's products, in any of the three

large pet
store where we have adoption centers, is an uncommon event - and I

look very
carefully because we feed Hill's in our shelter.


Really? You *really* pay that much attention to how much food a pet
store gets retuned? Whatever. If that's one of your major concerns,
your shelter must be empty.

Although we can get lower quality food donated free from other
manufacturers, I choose to *pay* for Hill's products because of the
excellent results I've had in thousands of animals.


Good for you. It works for you. It didn't work for me. And it
apparently didn't work for most everybody else I know who has fed it,
and everybody who reported similar problems on Usenet.

The only discount I get
on the food is from the stores - which is the same % discount that I

get on
any other store items... except the sodas in the refrigerated

cases...

and they push their products through vets by offering such benefits.


This also makes very little if any sense. Most vets, other than

vets in
isolated and remote areas, only sell prescription diets.

Prescription diets
do not generate sufficient revenue to justify or offset the cost of

such
expensive freebies.


They have to sell Rx diets. They also carry the regular manintenence
diets. At the feline hospital rule of thumb was push Hills and then
if applicable, push Walthams. That's all he carried. They have to
carry something, and when the incentive is great to push one over the
other, he pushed the one with the biggest incentive. In fact, we got
nothing from Walthams, and it was used only as a back-up when cats
refused the Hill's.

I know pet (and human) food manufacturers compete for prime product
locations in stores (like prime office space)... Now *that* kind

of volume
certainly justifies expensive perks... But a few cents on a

relatively small
number of cans or a few dollars on a small number of bags.... I

don't think
so... It would take years to just break even!


The vet has to sell something, so he sold the product which gave him
the most perks. This was a large practice - we saw 80-90 cats/day
sometimes.


Many people in this newsgroup came to the same, negative conclusion
after trying their foods.


Your "many" has very little meaning since this newsgroup represents

a very,
very tiny fraction of the world's cat owners. So your "many" is

actually
minuscule in comparison to the tens, if not hundreds of thousands or
probably millions of satisfied Hill's customers worldwide.


This is the exact argument pro-declawers say about the anti-declaw
anectdotal "complications" posts to this newsgroup. You can't have it
both ways, Phil.

The fact is, some people hate Hills. Some people have had negative
experiences with their foods. I do and I have, as have a number of
others in the original thread. Take it FWIW. I don't care. Feed
your cats Hills. I don't care. Just don't go traipsing around the
newsgroup dogging everybody who posts their negative experiences with
the product, like Gaubster does. In fact, I don't really even care
about that. Just don't make up bull**** claims like "Nutro negatively
alters cats' urine pH" with out substantiative data, like Gaubster
does. THAT'S what ****es me off.

As I said, the sales-to-return ratio of Hill's products in the three
national pet stores in which our adoption centers are located does

not
remotely support your "observations".


Fine. Whatever, I don't care. All I know is that the people I know
who feed it think it's ****. YMMV, AAID.

I think most people are wary of constant horror stories that

certainly
appear to be an agenda


Oh, yes, Phil. Anyone who you don't agree with has an "agenda".
Whatever. Eventhough you have agreed with me on nearly every other
subject to date...Sheesh.

and are also wary of stories that reality simply
doesn't support. All a reasonably intelligent pet owner has to do

is ask
the manager of the pet store where they buy their pet's food what

the
returns-to-sales ratio is for Hill's products.


All a resonably intelligent person has to do is feed the food to their
cat and see how it does. That's the definitive test, and the only
relevant one.

-L.
  #2  
Old October 22nd 03, 11:20 PM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Just don't make up bull**** claims like "Nutro negatively
alters cats' urine pH" with out substantiative data, like Gaubster
does. THAT'S what ****es me off.


It obviously doesn't bother you enough to check it out for yourself. That used
to be the case about 2-3 years ago. It's not a BS claim.
  #3  
Old October 22nd 03, 11:20 PM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Just don't make up bull**** claims like "Nutro negatively
alters cats' urine pH" with out substantiative data, like Gaubster
does. THAT'S what ****es me off.


It obviously doesn't bother you enough to check it out for yourself. That used
to be the case about 2-3 years ago. It's not a BS claim.
  #6  
Old October 23rd 03, 05:55 AM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It obviously doesn't bother you enough to check it out for yourself.

I'm not the one who posted the data. The onus is on *you* to support
your own data. Otherwise, you're just an idiot blowing hot air.


Since you don't want to know there's no sense beating it into the ground, is
there? If you don't agree, there must be a reason why? (wouldn't this just be
the perfect time to prove me wrong??)

Diets that are acidifying (such as Purina Special Care Urinary Tract Formula,
for instance) can acidify the pH of a cat's urine to levels in which problems
are caused. Other diets that acidify the urine (and make claims on the bag
even!) can create the same problem. The next time I'm in a pet store, I'll
check to see if Nutro took the claim off of their bags or not. I've also seen
this type of claim made on Pro Plan and IAMS, not just Nutro. In the meantime,
your name calling makes you look bad, not me.

So far, that's all it is. You won't support the data.
No, correction, apparently you CAN'T support the data.


I didn't post data, I posted an opinion based on what the claims on the bags
say. If Nutro (and other foods for that matter) don't acidify the urine, why
would they make that claim on the bag? Perhaps you care to answer that
question?
  #7  
Old October 23rd 03, 05:55 AM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It obviously doesn't bother you enough to check it out for yourself.

I'm not the one who posted the data. The onus is on *you* to support
your own data. Otherwise, you're just an idiot blowing hot air.


Since you don't want to know there's no sense beating it into the ground, is
there? If you don't agree, there must be a reason why? (wouldn't this just be
the perfect time to prove me wrong??)

Diets that are acidifying (such as Purina Special Care Urinary Tract Formula,
for instance) can acidify the pH of a cat's urine to levels in which problems
are caused. Other diets that acidify the urine (and make claims on the bag
even!) can create the same problem. The next time I'm in a pet store, I'll
check to see if Nutro took the claim off of their bags or not. I've also seen
this type of claim made on Pro Plan and IAMS, not just Nutro. In the meantime,
your name calling makes you look bad, not me.

So far, that's all it is. You won't support the data.
No, correction, apparently you CAN'T support the data.


I didn't post data, I posted an opinion based on what the claims on the bags
say. If Nutro (and other foods for that matter) don't acidify the urine, why
would they make that claim on the bag? Perhaps you care to answer that
question?
  #8  
Old October 23rd 03, 12:30 PM
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"-L." wrote in message
m...
Bear with me. Google can't retrieve your OP for some reason.

"-L." wrote in message
. com...



I can see you're not a business person...


I can see you like to make assumptions and jump to conclusions.



Naaa, they were just observations based on your comments. Perks and
freebies are a part of doing business in a highly competitive world.
Quality isn't enough when your competitors are offering the same quality
product and service for the same or even less money..


snip


Do you actually believe a vet would risk

his
practice, reputation and years (and $) of education for a few

hundred or
even a few thousand dollars worth of "bennies", that he more than

likely
doesn't need or wouldn't buy anyway, on products that made his

clients' pets
sick?


I didn't say the food made the cats sick. What I said is that the
cats wouldn't eat it, it gave them stinky ****, and/or it got returned
for a number of reasons.


I see. Thanks for clearing that up... When you said:

"Because they suck. They get bashed because their products are crap,"

....I thought you meant the product produced adverse effects... I guess
"sick" was too specific... My mistake...

Ok, then what were some of the non-health related "number of reasons" for
returning the food?


He (the practice owner) fed it at the
hospital because it was cheap and he received freebies from Hills.


Ahh I see. Thanks for clearing that up! I thought you implied the vet
pushed the food on his clients...


Yeah, and if he's like the vets I worked for, he receives gas grills,
leather jackets, and a myriad of other "stuff" commensurate with the
amount of Hill's food he pushes.


OK, so on whom does the vet "push" the Hill's food if not his clients? The
animals in his clinic?




He'd be outta business in less than a year!


To be honest with you, I don't know where you get your information


You know exactly where I get my information. I have posted to the ngs
for years, worked for a feline specialty vet and have a lot of
experience with a number of cat issues.


Yes, I've seen you mention that a few times, that's why I was surprised and
didn't know from where you got that information... I didn't think it was
from working in a clinic because I've never seen or heard of such
arrangements in in all the years (40) and vets and clinics (100) I've
worked with... Wouldn't you be curious, too, if you were me?



My experience was apparently
good enough in the past when it supported your other topics of
discussion.


That's probably because I agreed with you on certain issues. I even agree
with "Me Too" Lauren on certain issues (i.e., anti declawing, keeping cats
indoors)... and she's an obvious compulsive liar. Because I agree with you
on certain issues, that doesn't mean I'll agree with you on everything...
Even husbands and wives don't agree on everything....



and
figures from


AFAIK, I didn't post any "figures".

or what your agenda is, and frankly, I really don't care. If
you say from "personal experience", I can say with certainty, your

stories
are not remotely close to any arrangements that any of the vets I

work with
or have worked with over the years (and that's a lot of vets) had

with
Hill's.


Well, you aren't in the same market where we were, either.



I see that. You seem to be confined to one type of practice in one area.
I've worked with very large practices and many other smaller to mid-size
practices in different areas over the years... That's why I was so surprised
that your experiences with Hill's were so drastically different than
mine.... and everyone else's experiences that I know... or have known...
with similar experience as mine. Wouldn't you be surprised, too, if you
were me?




The
freebies the vet received weren't exactly common knowlege. In fact, I
worked there about 6 months before I was made privy to the actual
amount of stuff this guy received from them.


My personal vet is a retired veterinary professor and a long-time (20
years) personal friend (sports, parties, faimly functions). I've also
developed very close personal relationships with most of the vets and vets'
staffs I've worked with over the years and have been privy to highly
confidential information, and I've never seen or heard of such arrangements
that you mentioned. Wouldn't you be surprised and curious, too, if you were
me?



If the patients knew the
freebies this guy got, they'd probably be horrified. I know I was.


I get some pretty expensive gifts from some of my suppliers... especially
around Christmas time, and I don't feel the least bit "guilty" as I'm
sipping the Louis XIII I received as one of those gifts... I'll guess I'll
burn in hell for that! At least I won't be alone; almost everyone I know
will be there with me...except you, of course!



As far as profits from the products go, most vets that I know and

work(ed)
with only sell prescription diets.


The vets I know who sell Hills also sell their maintenence diets.


Hmmmm. I wonder why clients would want to pay more for maintenence diets
that they could buy for less in a pet store? Ask them if they need any
printing done - I'll give them a "special" price! Don't worry, I won't
tarnish your soul by sending you a "commission" ...



And again, I can say with reasonable
certainty (one of my tenants is a vet), that the profit on these

products
barely, if even, offsets the cost of the space to store the products

--
canned products have a slighly higher profit : cost of space ratio

than dry
foods -- unless the vet own a big building.


Which the vet in question did. We had a store room for food.


That I can understand... Especially if he has clients that don't mind
spending more money for the same food that they could buy for less in a pet
store...

Gee, I wish I had clients like that.... All of mine are always trying to get
the lowest price they can...





There are other posts about Hills giving away free or low cost cat
food to vet students, as well as other freebies,


And that's a "bad" thing?


It reeks of inpropriety.



Why is that? Veterinary, or any college students are usually very short of
money... They spend whatever money they have on tuition, books, instruments,
supplies, food, you know, things like that.

I think its absolutely wonderful, in fact I think its commendable, that
Hill's helps them along with the little things... I seriously doubt Hill's
makes them sign a contact at gun point to buy their products when the
students graduate and open their own practices.... Do you think the students
will become Dr. Fausts for a few cans of cat food? "Dr. Johann Faust, DVM"
LOL!





in the Google
archives. It's not exactly a secret.


You shouldn't believe everything you read in newsgroups...


Didn't say I did. But when enough independent sources say the same
thing, you can pretty much conclude there is a trend...


....or they're jumping on the bandwagon. ...or they're agreeing with or
repeating stories they heard from other people just to be accepted in a
clique. Some people get more pleasure from denigrating than from
complementing... I guess it a sign of some type of disorder...

Its very difficult for me to accept "there's a trend" when my experiences
and those of others I know and work with and the pet stores I'm involved
with, aren't even *remotely* close the stories that are ciculating on the
internet which are probably being perpetuated by only a relatively few
people...




As I'm sure
you've noticed, many people have agendas...


The posts in question are not posted in circumstances where an agenda
is apparent.


Maybe you haven't noticed... Skillfully presented agendas often aren't
apparent...Otherwise, everyone would know the person had an agenda and would
dismiss their stories as such...


One that I can recall is from a vet who posts under her
own name and made FWIW comments in a non-cat newsgroup.


OK, I'll give you that one... I know one or two vets who perfer Purina
veterinary diets to Hill's...



The only other freebies we ever received were from Bayer - Advantage
for free. IMO, that was dishonest as well.


What about companies that give their employees free cars and homes

or
apartments and other perks - such as medical benefits (which ain't

cheap!!)
to get people to work for them? I have a lawyer relative who

received a
condo in midtown Manhattan and a car - he can practically live on

his
expense account without hardly touching his salary! Are they all
"dishonest" too?


We are not talking about employees. We are talking about marketing
techniques.


Same principal... different circumstances... Attracting a potentially
valuable employee certainly is marketing...


Yes, I received offers for a lot of bennies from sales reps to use
their products when I did work in industry. Personally, I think it is
a marjorly slimy way to do business. The companies with the superior
products don't NEED to do so. Their products sell themselves.


Do you remember when I said "I can see you're not a business person"? That's
why! Quality isn't enough when your competitors are offering the same
quality product and service for the same or even less money.. Perks and
freebies are a part of doing business in a highly competitive world.




I think you have a lot to learn about doing business in a highly

completive
world. Freebies, bennies and perks are a normal, if not essential,

part of
doing business...


And it creats situations of inpropriety. The Enrons of the world were
not created overnight. In fact, the major corporation I worked for
for 8 years had a specific policy that forbid employees from accepting
such perks because it was deemed unethical.


Was that Saint Mary's Church?



Because they suck. They get bashed because their products are crap,


If that were remotely true, Hill's products would be returned by

customers
by the truck loads to pet stores (Hill's offers a 100% money back

guarantee
like most other pet food manufactures).


My comment was in regard to the bashing of Hills in the newsgroups.
People complain about things that cause them grief.


....or have an agenda.



Furthermore, at the vet where I worked, food was returned routinely.
Especially the more unpalatable Rx diets like W/D and I/D. C/D-S got
returned a lot because it was the Rx diet we sold the most.


You worked in a veterinary clinic, right? Yet you don't know that the most
difficult time to change a cat's diet is when they're sick?




And this I can with *absolute*
certainty, finding returned Hill's products, in any of the three

large pet
store where we have adoption centers, is an uncommon event - and I

look very
carefully because we feed Hill's in our shelter.


Really? You *really* pay that much attention to how much food a pet
store gets retuned?



I damn sure do! The stores donate the retuned food and get credits... I
only accept unopened cans - practically all retuned bags of food have been
opened - I'm a little quirky about opened food packages... if you know what
I mean...


Whatever. If that's one of your major concerns,
your shelter must be empty.


Gee, your reasoning behind your conclusion escapes me... Please explain how
watching out for returned food that my shelter can use, is an indication
that my shelter is empty.... If my shelter were empty I wouldn't need pet
food and thus I wouldn't be looking for returned food.... right?



Although we can get lower quality food donated free from other
manufacturers, I choose to *pay* for Hill's products because of the
excellent results I've had in thousands of animals.


Good for you. It works for you. It didn't work for me. And it
apparently didn't work for most everybody else I know who has fed it,
and everybody who reported similar problems on Usenet.


Ahhh, but you don't *know* all the circumstance involved in other peoples'
situations and Usenet "reports"... Many people make the change of food too
abrupt which can cause diarrhea or vomiting... Also, many cats don't readily
accept a new food... Sometimes the transition takes weeks of very gradual
increases of the new food and equal decreases of the old food... ...but you
know all this, you work in a veterinary clinic.....




The only discount I get
on the food is from the stores - which is the same % discount that I

get on
any other store items... except the sodas in the refrigerated

cases...

and they push their products through vets by offering such benefits.


This also makes very little if any sense. Most vets, other than

vets in
isolated and remote areas, only sell prescription diets.

Prescription diets
do not generate sufficient revenue to justify or offset the cost of

such
expensive freebies.


They have to sell Rx diets. They also carry the regular manintenence
diets. At the feline hospital rule of thumb was push Hills and then
if applicable, push Walthams. That's all he carried. They have to
carry something, and when the incentive is great to push one over the
other, he pushed the one with the biggest incentive. In fact, we got
nothing from Walthams, and it was used only as a back-up when cats
refused the Hill's.


Ok, that makes sense... If he carried maintenance diets, I would imagine
that he would want to sell them.... Especially if his clients didn't mind
spending more money for an OTC maintenance diet that they could buy for less
in a pet store... unless there are no pet stores in your area... or the
clinc was closer or more convenient... In that case, your vet was providing
a convenience for his clients...



I know pet (and human) food manufacturers compete for prime product
locations in stores (like prime office space)... Now *that* kind

of volume
certainly justifies expensive perks... But a few cents on a

relatively small
number of cans or a few dollars on a small number of bags.... I

don't think
so... It would take years to just break even!


The vet has to sell something, so he sold the product which gave him
the most perks. This was a large practice - we saw 80-90 cats/day
sometimes.


If the product was as bad as you say, and he was "pushing" it on his
clients, he wouldn't being seeing 80-90 cats a day for very long!




Many people in this newsgroup came to the same, negative conclusion
after trying their foods.


Your "many" has very little meaning since this newsgroup represents

a very,
very tiny fraction of the world's cat owners. So your "many" is

actually
minuscule in comparison to the tens, if not hundreds of thousands or
probably millions of satisfied Hill's customers worldwide.


This is the exact argument pro-declawers say about the anti-declaw
anectdotal "complications" posts to this newsgroup. You can't have it
both ways, Phil.



What on earth are you talking about? Pro-declawers? Both ways??? Hill's
worldwide sales are hardly anecdotal. You might want to browse through Pet
Food Industry magazine and supplements every once in awhile so you have an
idea of what's really happening in the world.

There's a old Chinese proverb: "The frog at the bottom of the well thinks
the whole sky is only a meter wide". IOW, your point of view doesn't reveal
the whole picture...



The fact is, some people hate Hills. Some people have had negative
experiences with their foods. I do and I have, as have a number of
others in the original thread. Take it FWIW. I don't care. Feed
your cats Hills. I don't care. Just don't go traipsing around the
newsgroup dogging everybody who posts their negative experiences with
the product, like Gaubster does.



Whoa!!!!! I damn sure certainly WILL challange ANY posts that I think are
bullsh!t, conjured up stories by people with some kind of neurotic,
obsessive or even pathological agenda for a product that I've had excellent
results with in THOUSANDS of animals. I suggest you learn to live with it
because I don't plan to make any changes anytime soon... Especially,
*especially* because you say so!


I don't want to see people misled away from an EXCELLENT, and probably the
BEST formulated food on the market because of mostly grossly exaggerated, if
not pure bullsh!t stories conjured up by largely a few obsessed people with
an agenda. Normal, rational people don't go on and on and on and on with
hyperbolic horror stories.

On second thought, don't change anything! If you presented your case in a
reasonable and rational manner, people just might take you seriously.... So
don't change anything! Carry on the way you're going!



In fact, I don't really even care
about that. Just don't make up bull**** claims like "Nutro negatively
alters cats' urine pH" with out substantiative data, like Gaubster
does. THAT'S what ****es me off.



Then I suggest you take your grievances up with Gaubster.... and don't give
me instructions...because you'll be waiting a very, very long, long time for
me to follow them.....



As I said, the sales-to-return ratio of Hill's products in the three
national pet stores in which our adoption centers are located does

not
remotely support your "observations".


Fine. Whatever, I don't care.


You sure do one hell of an act - because it certainly looks like you care
*very* much! LOL!


All I know is that the people I know
who feed it think it's ****. YMMV, AAID.


That's all you have to say.... See how easy that was???


I think most people are wary of constant horror stories that

certainly
appear to be an agenda


Oh, yes, Phil. Anyone who you don't agree with has an "agenda".



There's "disagreement" and there is *agenda*. Plenty of people don't agree
with me and don't have agendas.... But you and a few others certainly seem
like you have an agenda.... May be your ****ed because you only got a few
pens instead of a leather jacket or gas grill! LOL!



Whatever. Eventhough you have agreed with me on nearly every other
subject to date...Sheesh.


Ahhh, I see. So that means I should agree with you on issues that I don't
agree with because I agreed with you on other issues? Okey dokey. Do me a
big favor... don't agree with me anymore. Agreed? ....




and are also wary of stories that reality simply
doesn't support. All a reasonably intelligent pet owner has to do

is ask
the manager of the pet store where they buy their pet's food what

the
returns-to-sales ratio is for Hill's products.


All a resonably intelligent person has to do is feed the food to their
cat and see how it does. That's the definitive test, and the only
relevant one.


There ya go! Now you're catching on!





  #9  
Old October 23rd 03, 12:30 PM
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"-L." wrote in message
m...
Bear with me. Google can't retrieve your OP for some reason.

"-L." wrote in message
. com...



I can see you're not a business person...


I can see you like to make assumptions and jump to conclusions.



Naaa, they were just observations based on your comments. Perks and
freebies are a part of doing business in a highly competitive world.
Quality isn't enough when your competitors are offering the same quality
product and service for the same or even less money..


snip


Do you actually believe a vet would risk

his
practice, reputation and years (and $) of education for a few

hundred or
even a few thousand dollars worth of "bennies", that he more than

likely
doesn't need or wouldn't buy anyway, on products that made his

clients' pets
sick?


I didn't say the food made the cats sick. What I said is that the
cats wouldn't eat it, it gave them stinky ****, and/or it got returned
for a number of reasons.


I see. Thanks for clearing that up... When you said:

"Because they suck. They get bashed because their products are crap,"

....I thought you meant the product produced adverse effects... I guess
"sick" was too specific... My mistake...

Ok, then what were some of the non-health related "number of reasons" for
returning the food?


He (the practice owner) fed it at the
hospital because it was cheap and he received freebies from Hills.


Ahh I see. Thanks for clearing that up! I thought you implied the vet
pushed the food on his clients...


Yeah, and if he's like the vets I worked for, he receives gas grills,
leather jackets, and a myriad of other "stuff" commensurate with the
amount of Hill's food he pushes.


OK, so on whom does the vet "push" the Hill's food if not his clients? The
animals in his clinic?




He'd be outta business in less than a year!


To be honest with you, I don't know where you get your information


You know exactly where I get my information. I have posted to the ngs
for years, worked for a feline specialty vet and have a lot of
experience with a number of cat issues.


Yes, I've seen you mention that a few times, that's why I was surprised and
didn't know from where you got that information... I didn't think it was
from working in a clinic because I've never seen or heard of such
arrangements in in all the years (40) and vets and clinics (100) I've
worked with... Wouldn't you be curious, too, if you were me?



My experience was apparently
good enough in the past when it supported your other topics of
discussion.


That's probably because I agreed with you on certain issues. I even agree
with "Me Too" Lauren on certain issues (i.e., anti declawing, keeping cats
indoors)... and she's an obvious compulsive liar. Because I agree with you
on certain issues, that doesn't mean I'll agree with you on everything...
Even husbands and wives don't agree on everything....



and
figures from


AFAIK, I didn't post any "figures".

or what your agenda is, and frankly, I really don't care. If
you say from "personal experience", I can say with certainty, your

stories
are not remotely close to any arrangements that any of the vets I

work with
or have worked with over the years (and that's a lot of vets) had

with
Hill's.


Well, you aren't in the same market where we were, either.



I see that. You seem to be confined to one type of practice in one area.
I've worked with very large practices and many other smaller to mid-size
practices in different areas over the years... That's why I was so surprised
that your experiences with Hill's were so drastically different than
mine.... and everyone else's experiences that I know... or have known...
with similar experience as mine. Wouldn't you be surprised, too, if you
were me?




The
freebies the vet received weren't exactly common knowlege. In fact, I
worked there about 6 months before I was made privy to the actual
amount of stuff this guy received from them.


My personal vet is a retired veterinary professor and a long-time (20
years) personal friend (sports, parties, faimly functions). I've also
developed very close personal relationships with most of the vets and vets'
staffs I've worked with over the years and have been privy to highly
confidential information, and I've never seen or heard of such arrangements
that you mentioned. Wouldn't you be surprised and curious, too, if you were
me?



If the patients knew the
freebies this guy got, they'd probably be horrified. I know I was.


I get some pretty expensive gifts from some of my suppliers... especially
around Christmas time, and I don't feel the least bit "guilty" as I'm
sipping the Louis XIII I received as one of those gifts... I'll guess I'll
burn in hell for that! At least I won't be alone; almost everyone I know
will be there with me...except you, of course!



As far as profits from the products go, most vets that I know and

work(ed)
with only sell prescription diets.


The vets I know who sell Hills also sell their maintenence diets.


Hmmmm. I wonder why clients would want to pay more for maintenence diets
that they could buy for less in a pet store? Ask them if they need any
printing done - I'll give them a "special" price! Don't worry, I won't
tarnish your soul by sending you a "commission" ...



And again, I can say with reasonable
certainty (one of my tenants is a vet), that the profit on these

products
barely, if even, offsets the cost of the space to store the products

--
canned products have a slighly higher profit : cost of space ratio

than dry
foods -- unless the vet own a big building.


Which the vet in question did. We had a store room for food.


That I can understand... Especially if he has clients that don't mind
spending more money for the same food that they could buy for less in a pet
store...

Gee, I wish I had clients like that.... All of mine are always trying to get
the lowest price they can...





There are other posts about Hills giving away free or low cost cat
food to vet students, as well as other freebies,


And that's a "bad" thing?


It reeks of inpropriety.



Why is that? Veterinary, or any college students are usually very short of
money... They spend whatever money they have on tuition, books, instruments,
supplies, food, you know, things like that.

I think its absolutely wonderful, in fact I think its commendable, that
Hill's helps them along with the little things... I seriously doubt Hill's
makes them sign a contact at gun point to buy their products when the
students graduate and open their own practices.... Do you think the students
will become Dr. Fausts for a few cans of cat food? "Dr. Johann Faust, DVM"
LOL!





in the Google
archives. It's not exactly a secret.


You shouldn't believe everything you read in newsgroups...


Didn't say I did. But when enough independent sources say the same
thing, you can pretty much conclude there is a trend...


....or they're jumping on the bandwagon. ...or they're agreeing with or
repeating stories they heard from other people just to be accepted in a
clique. Some people get more pleasure from denigrating than from
complementing... I guess it a sign of some type of disorder...

Its very difficult for me to accept "there's a trend" when my experiences
and those of others I know and work with and the pet stores I'm involved
with, aren't even *remotely* close the stories that are ciculating on the
internet which are probably being perpetuated by only a relatively few
people...




As I'm sure
you've noticed, many people have agendas...


The posts in question are not posted in circumstances where an agenda
is apparent.


Maybe you haven't noticed... Skillfully presented agendas often aren't
apparent...Otherwise, everyone would know the person had an agenda and would
dismiss their stories as such...


One that I can recall is from a vet who posts under her
own name and made FWIW comments in a non-cat newsgroup.


OK, I'll give you that one... I know one or two vets who perfer Purina
veterinary diets to Hill's...



The only other freebies we ever received were from Bayer - Advantage
for free. IMO, that was dishonest as well.


What about companies that give their employees free cars and homes

or
apartments and other perks - such as medical benefits (which ain't

cheap!!)
to get people to work for them? I have a lawyer relative who

received a
condo in midtown Manhattan and a car - he can practically live on

his
expense account without hardly touching his salary! Are they all
"dishonest" too?


We are not talking about employees. We are talking about marketing
techniques.


Same principal... different circumstances... Attracting a potentially
valuable employee certainly is marketing...


Yes, I received offers for a lot of bennies from sales reps to use
their products when I did work in industry. Personally, I think it is
a marjorly slimy way to do business. The companies with the superior
products don't NEED to do so. Their products sell themselves.


Do you remember when I said "I can see you're not a business person"? That's
why! Quality isn't enough when your competitors are offering the same
quality product and service for the same or even less money.. Perks and
freebies are a part of doing business in a highly competitive world.




I think you have a lot to learn about doing business in a highly

completive
world. Freebies, bennies and perks are a normal, if not essential,

part of
doing business...


And it creats situations of inpropriety. The Enrons of the world were
not created overnight. In fact, the major corporation I worked for
for 8 years had a specific policy that forbid employees from accepting
such perks because it was deemed unethical.


Was that Saint Mary's Church?



Because they suck. They get bashed because their products are crap,


If that were remotely true, Hill's products would be returned by

customers
by the truck loads to pet stores (Hill's offers a 100% money back

guarantee
like most other pet food manufactures).


My comment was in regard to the bashing of Hills in the newsgroups.
People complain about things that cause them grief.


....or have an agenda.



Furthermore, at the vet where I worked, food was returned routinely.
Especially the more unpalatable Rx diets like W/D and I/D. C/D-S got
returned a lot because it was the Rx diet we sold the most.


You worked in a veterinary clinic, right? Yet you don't know that the most
difficult time to change a cat's diet is when they're sick?




And this I can with *absolute*
certainty, finding returned Hill's products, in any of the three

large pet
store where we have adoption centers, is an uncommon event - and I

look very
carefully because we feed Hill's in our shelter.


Really? You *really* pay that much attention to how much food a pet
store gets retuned?



I damn sure do! The stores donate the retuned food and get credits... I
only accept unopened cans - practically all retuned bags of food have been
opened - I'm a little quirky about opened food packages... if you know what
I mean...


Whatever. If that's one of your major concerns,
your shelter must be empty.


Gee, your reasoning behind your conclusion escapes me... Please explain how
watching out for returned food that my shelter can use, is an indication
that my shelter is empty.... If my shelter were empty I wouldn't need pet
food and thus I wouldn't be looking for returned food.... right?



Although we can get lower quality food donated free from other
manufacturers, I choose to *pay* for Hill's products because of the
excellent results I've had in thousands of animals.


Good for you. It works for you. It didn't work for me. And it
apparently didn't work for most everybody else I know who has fed it,
and everybody who reported similar problems on Usenet.


Ahhh, but you don't *know* all the circumstance involved in other peoples'
situations and Usenet "reports"... Many people make the change of food too
abrupt which can cause diarrhea or vomiting... Also, many cats don't readily
accept a new food... Sometimes the transition takes weeks of very gradual
increases of the new food and equal decreases of the old food... ...but you
know all this, you work in a veterinary clinic.....




The only discount I get
on the food is from the stores - which is the same % discount that I

get on
any other store items... except the sodas in the refrigerated

cases...

and they push their products through vets by offering such benefits.


This also makes very little if any sense. Most vets, other than

vets in
isolated and remote areas, only sell prescription diets.

Prescription diets
do not generate sufficient revenue to justify or offset the cost of

such
expensive freebies.


They have to sell Rx diets. They also carry the regular manintenence
diets. At the feline hospital rule of thumb was push Hills and then
if applicable, push Walthams. That's all he carried. They have to
carry something, and when the incentive is great to push one over the
other, he pushed the one with the biggest incentive. In fact, we got
nothing from Walthams, and it was used only as a back-up when cats
refused the Hill's.


Ok, that makes sense... If he carried maintenance diets, I would imagine
that he would want to sell them.... Especially if his clients didn't mind
spending more money for an OTC maintenance diet that they could buy for less
in a pet store... unless there are no pet stores in your area... or the
clinc was closer or more convenient... In that case, your vet was providing
a convenience for his clients...



I know pet (and human) food manufacturers compete for prime product
locations in stores (like prime office space)... Now *that* kind

of volume
certainly justifies expensive perks... But a few cents on a

relatively small
number of cans or a few dollars on a small number of bags.... I

don't think
so... It would take years to just break even!


The vet has to sell something, so he sold the product which gave him
the most perks. This was a large practice - we saw 80-90 cats/day
sometimes.


If the product was as bad as you say, and he was "pushing" it on his
clients, he wouldn't being seeing 80-90 cats a day for very long!




Many people in this newsgroup came to the same, negative conclusion
after trying their foods.


Your "many" has very little meaning since this newsgroup represents

a very,
very tiny fraction of the world's cat owners. So your "many" is

actually
minuscule in comparison to the tens, if not hundreds of thousands or
probably millions of satisfied Hill's customers worldwide.


This is the exact argument pro-declawers say about the anti-declaw
anectdotal "complications" posts to this newsgroup. You can't have it
both ways, Phil.



What on earth are you talking about? Pro-declawers? Both ways??? Hill's
worldwide sales are hardly anecdotal. You might want to browse through Pet
Food Industry magazine and supplements every once in awhile so you have an
idea of what's really happening in the world.

There's a old Chinese proverb: "The frog at the bottom of the well thinks
the whole sky is only a meter wide". IOW, your point of view doesn't reveal
the whole picture...



The fact is, some people hate Hills. Some people have had negative
experiences with their foods. I do and I have, as have a number of
others in the original thread. Take it FWIW. I don't care. Feed
your cats Hills. I don't care. Just don't go traipsing around the
newsgroup dogging everybody who posts their negative experiences with
the product, like Gaubster does.



Whoa!!!!! I damn sure certainly WILL challange ANY posts that I think are
bullsh!t, conjured up stories by people with some kind of neurotic,
obsessive or even pathological agenda for a product that I've had excellent
results with in THOUSANDS of animals. I suggest you learn to live with it
because I don't plan to make any changes anytime soon... Especially,
*especially* because you say so!


I don't want to see people misled away from an EXCELLENT, and probably the
BEST formulated food on the market because of mostly grossly exaggerated, if
not pure bullsh!t stories conjured up by largely a few obsessed people with
an agenda. Normal, rational people don't go on and on and on and on with
hyperbolic horror stories.

On second thought, don't change anything! If you presented your case in a
reasonable and rational manner, people just might take you seriously.... So
don't change anything! Carry on the way you're going!



In fact, I don't really even care
about that. Just don't make up bull**** claims like "Nutro negatively
alters cats' urine pH" with out substantiative data, like Gaubster
does. THAT'S what ****es me off.



Then I suggest you take your grievances up with Gaubster.... and don't give
me instructions...because you'll be waiting a very, very long, long time for
me to follow them.....



As I said, the sales-to-return ratio of Hill's products in the three
national pet stores in which our adoption centers are located does

not
remotely support your "observations".


Fine. Whatever, I don't care.


You sure do one hell of an act - because it certainly looks like you care
*very* much! LOL!


All I know is that the people I know
who feed it think it's ****. YMMV, AAID.


That's all you have to say.... See how easy that was???


I think most people are wary of constant horror stories that

certainly
appear to be an agenda


Oh, yes, Phil. Anyone who you don't agree with has an "agenda".



There's "disagreement" and there is *agenda*. Plenty of people don't agree
with me and don't have agendas.... But you and a few others certainly seem
like you have an agenda.... May be your ****ed because you only got a few
pens instead of a leather jacket or gas grill! LOL!



Whatever. Eventhough you have agreed with me on nearly every other
subject to date...Sheesh.


Ahhh, I see. So that means I should agree with you on issues that I don't
agree with because I agreed with you on other issues? Okey dokey. Do me a
big favor... don't agree with me anymore. Agreed? ....




and are also wary of stories that reality simply
doesn't support. All a reasonably intelligent pet owner has to do

is ask
the manager of the pet store where they buy their pet's food what

the
returns-to-sales ratio is for Hill's products.


All a resonably intelligent person has to do is feed the food to their
cat and see how it does. That's the definitive test, and the only
relevant one.


There ya go! Now you're catching on!





 




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