Ann MArtin claims debate

olitter (PawsForThought) wrote in message ...
From: (Steve Crane)

Let's see if I can make this simpler. Martin claimed that there was
*TOXIC* levels of pentobarb in foods - your web site proved that was
NOT true. Nobody here has ever said there were never any traces found
in cheap foods.

But what is toxic exactly? If a person feeds a food with even trace amounts of
pentobarb, ethoxyquin, BHT, BHA, etc., what is the effect over years of
feeding? How much build up do you get? How do all these different chemicals
react over the years in a cat. I don't know about you, but I would not want to
feed that garbage to my pets. Also, I believe that the testing was a few years
ago, 1998? I don't have time to look now. But anyway, what is going on now?
Which foods have it now? Things change. What one company may not have done
then, or what one company may not have had in its sample then, could very well
be there now. The pet food industry is highly unregulated as far as
ingredients go, so who really knows what's in there? Except you of course,
because you are in the industry. But what about the average pet owner? Do
they really know what is in their pet food? For many people, reading the label
is just plain confusing. I think if what Ann Martin wrote in her book was
untrue, she would be facing many lawsuits. But I think she has a point when
she says the pet food companies don't want to sue because then the industry
would be open to the public.

Lauren

Let me try to answer some of your concerns expressed above.

All things are toxic, the amounts given determine if it is a toxic
dose or a medical dose or a harmless dose. There is a quote from
Peraclesus I am trying to remember that says this is better langauge.
Vitamin E is TOXIC - at the right does. In fact if the amount of
vitmain E used to preserve pet foods was all biologically available -
it would be lethal. That is why "mixed" tocopherols are used which
include types of vitamin e which the body cannot adsorb and therefore
don't create toxcicity. Using your reasoning you couldn't feed
anything to your pet because everything they eat is toxic at some
level. I can't think of a great example at the moment but there are
many chemicals in every food that we eat that would be toxic if given
at a high enough dose. You have to get into the realm of reality here
and quit wondering off into the realm of silly nonsense. It is
patently silly nonsense to worry about levels of BHA, BHT, supposed
contamination with pentobarb etc. There has NEVER been a single study
done ANYWHERE among the hundreds of studies done which shows ANY
negative results at levels permitted in pet food or human food. Not
ONE SINGLE study EVER.

And don't even bother with the goofy argument about these things
"building up over time". That's sheer nonsense and every bio-chemist
knows it. With the exception of heavy metals, our bodies break down
everything into pieces and excrete the waste. Only in very rare
instances (copper storage disease in Bedlington Terriers with a faulty
gene) is this not true. Pentobarb is broken down so fast it's amazing.
Why do you think it's called a short term anaesthetic? You have about
an hour for pentobarb to be effective and then it breaks down and goes
away. This drug was used for short surgical procedures because it was
one of the shortest acting anaesthetics that existed in it's time.

The testing for pentobarb was first done in 1998, repeated with a
different set of food in 2000 and I expect will be repeated again in
2004. After that you can forget about any further testing since there
have never been found any levels which remotely suggest ANY danger to
any animal, despite the foolish scaremongering book selling antics of
the lunatic fringe.

Nobody would bother wasting time suing Ann Martin over her book, nor
suing Whole Dog Journal or others over the goofy stuff they write. The
number of book she sells or number of subscriptions WDJ sells is so
completely inconsequential it doesn't even register. From a companies
point of view they would do MORE damage by suing her and giving the
lunatic fringe a bloody pulpit to scream from. In fact even after the
company won the case the conspiracy nuts would simply assume the
judges were paid off and declare Ann was right all along. Look how
many people still believe we have never been to the moon and it was
all a Hollywood movie production.

I can't speak for any other companies except my own. I know what we
go through to insure that no such contaminats are ever in a product we
make. I know about the testing process used on every single raw
ingredient that ever tries to cross the door into the production
plant. I can't speak for other companies but I doubt there is a single
premium food company out there that isn't doing much the same testing.
Even Nutro who got caught in the first testing cleaned up its act. If
you want to buy Old Roy or some other generic food - that's your
business.

What frustrates the hell out of me is that this is such phoney
baloney and has absolutely no real risk to our peets under any
circumstances. And while everyone is spending a ton of effort on such
silly nonsense they are completely ignoring REAL disease that REALLY
kills our pets. It simply makes no sense whatever to worry about such
nonsense which has NEVER been shown to kill a single pet, and
completely ignore things that we know factually and without a doubt
are indeed killing our pets. Explain to me whay we should spend time
and effort on this nonsense and ignore renal failure? Why aren't you
and everyone screaming all day long about elevated phosphorus levels,
high levels of sodium, excessive calcium, poor breeding by breeders
who keep breeding genetically defective kittens and puppies. These are
things we KNOW cause disease and limit our pets lives. Instead off we
go on another round of crazy lunatic fringe scaremongering in search
of who knows what.

(Ann Martin) wrote in message . com...

We do know that all the above do have an effect on humans and the
FDA/CVM has lowered the amounts of ethoxyquin allowed in pet food
because of illnesses in pets. In 1997 the FDA/CVM lowered the levels
from l50 ppm to 75 ppm.

That is another factual error. The levels have NOT been legally
lowered. A "request" was made to lower such levels, but there is no
law which requires it to be so. A moot point anyway since there is no
known disease nor any negative effects ever found in a single pet as a
result of feeding at the legal levels. Even when the request was made
it was a moot point, most manufacturers were already well under the 75
ppm level and were running around 20-30 ppm.


You, like a few others on this list, are the ones that are full of
"bullsh!t."
You all resort to derogatory remarks when backed into a corner.

Speaking of backed into the corner, why then haven't you answered the
original post that started this thread?


Perhaps some cat owner's should question why the FDA/CVM has never
tested cat foods for this drug. Could it be because they have spent so
much time with their cover-up on the dog foods that they will not do
any further studies?

Oh fry crying out loud - here you go again. You get proven wrong on
one subject (Toxic levels in dog food) and then jump to another hoping
it will be the life boat you can scream from. What silly nonsense -
perhaps we ought to be checking out the elephant feed too, you never
know there might be ground up elephants euthanized with pentobarb in
it. Well it's possible isn't it? Nobody checked on that so maybe
that's where all the ground up cast and dogs went too? Why not? Prove
me wrong. I'll sell a million books about how we're selling pentobarb
contaminated ground up dogs and cats to zoos for elephant feed and you
can't prove me wrong. Maybe we ought to take a closer look at the Musk
Ox, that seems a even more likely contaminated food. They could hide a
lot of ground up cats and dogs contaiminated with pentobarb in that
bogus hay they are claiming to be feeding the musk ox.

(Ann Martin) wrote in message . com...

We do know that all the above do have an effect on humans and the
FDA/CVM has lowered the amounts of ethoxyquin allowed in pet food
because of illnesses in pets. In 1997 the FDA/CVM lowered the levels
from l50 ppm to 75 ppm.

That is another factual error. The levels have NOT been legally
lowered. A "request" was made to lower such levels, but there is no
law which requires it to be so. A moot point anyway since there is no
known disease nor any negative effects ever found in a single pet as a
result of feeding at the legal levels. Even when the request was made
it was a moot point, most manufacturers were already well under the 75
ppm level and were running around 20-30 ppm.


You, like a few others on this list, are the ones that are full of
"bullsh!t."
You all resort to derogatory remarks when backed into a corner.

Speaking of backed into the corner, why then haven't you answered the
original post that started this thread?


Perhaps some cat owner's should question why the FDA/CVM has never
tested cat foods for this drug. Could it be because they have spent so
much time with their cover-up on the dog foods that they will not do
any further studies?

Oh fry crying out loud - here you go again. You get proven wrong on
one subject (Toxic levels in dog food) and then jump to another hoping
it will be the life boat you can scream from. What silly nonsense -
perhaps we ought to be checking out the elephant feed too, you never
know there might be ground up elephants euthanized with pentobarb in
it. Well it's possible isn't it? Nobody checked on that so maybe
that's where all the ground up cast and dogs went too? Why not? Prove
me wrong. I'll sell a million books about how we're selling pentobarb
contaminated ground up dogs and cats to zoos for elephant feed and you
can't prove me wrong. Maybe we ought to take a closer look at the Musk
Ox, that seems a even more likely contaminated food. They could hide a
lot of ground up cats and dogs contaiminated with pentobarb in that
bogus hay they are claiming to be feeding the musk ox.

(Ann Martin) wrote in message . com...

And what do you think is going into pet food? If it was meat, grains
or fats found fit for human consumption they would not be using them
in pet food. Meats, rejected, unfit for human consumption are used in
pet food. Animals, that contain high levels of hormones and drugs are
rejected for human consumption are dumped for pet food. Rendered
material, a wide array of dead animals, are mixed together to produce
meat meal. Talk to a meat inspector or an executive from a rendering
plant and they will tell you what is going for pet food.

Again Ann, lets try this again. Let's assume all your allegatiosn are
true, show us the proof os ANY negative harmful effects. Let's also
keep in mind that you are suggesting to people they move to "human
grade" foods. Now you need to prove that the pet foods you claim are
WORSE than the human foods you think poeple should move to. I think
you'd better do a bit more research on the incidence of disease in
"human grade" foods and then come back and show us that pet foods have
caused MORE disease than what you are suggesting. Meanwhile we'll just
keep on ignoring REAL PROVEN disease like kidney failure exacerbated
by high levels of phosphorus, sodium and calcium in diet - because
what the heck it's only the second biggest REAL PROVEN killer of cats.





And thousands of cats did die from lack of taurine in the commercial
pet foods.

Ahh, there you go back another couple decades. But wait we forgot
something, millions of cats died from eating undetected levels of
rancid fats up until the 1960's when we discoverd that an artificial
antioxidant in cat food could stop that cause of death dead in it's
tracks. Ooops can't talk about that since it was the awful evil
ethoxyquin that saved millions of cats lives for 40 years. Never mind
lets not let the facts get in the way of our agenda.








At least you oppose raw feeding.. I'll give your book that.

.

(Ann Martin) wrote in message . com...

And what do you think is going into pet food? If it was meat, grains
or fats found fit for human consumption they would not be using them
in pet food. Meats, rejected, unfit for human consumption are used in
pet food. Animals, that contain high levels of hormones and drugs are
rejected for human consumption are dumped for pet food. Rendered
material, a wide array of dead animals, are mixed together to produce
meat meal. Talk to a meat inspector or an executive from a rendering
plant and they will tell you what is going for pet food.

Again Ann, lets try this again. Let's assume all your allegatiosn are
true, show us the proof os ANY negative harmful effects. Let's also
keep in mind that you are suggesting to people they move to "human
grade" foods. Now you need to prove that the pet foods you claim are
WORSE than the human foods you think poeple should move to. I think
you'd better do a bit more research on the incidence of disease in
"human grade" foods and then come back and show us that pet foods have
caused MORE disease than what you are suggesting. Meanwhile we'll just
keep on ignoring REAL PROVEN disease like kidney failure exacerbated
by high levels of phosphorus, sodium and calcium in diet - because
what the heck it's only the second biggest REAL PROVEN killer of cats.





And thousands of cats did die from lack of taurine in the commercial
pet foods.

Ahh, there you go back another couple decades. But wait we forgot
something, millions of cats died from eating undetected levels of
rancid fats up until the 1960's when we discoverd that an artificial
antioxidant in cat food could stop that cause of death dead in it's
tracks. Ooops can't talk about that since it was the awful evil
ethoxyquin that saved millions of cats lives for 40 years. Never mind
lets not let the facts get in the way of our agenda.








At least you oppose raw feeding.. I'll give your book that.

.

"fuga =^o^=" wrote in message ble.rogers.com...

Purina, and I have the reports from Mann Labs in Mississauga to
confirm this was what was found in the food along with over 20 other
metals.

Can we see these reports?

No problem, if you want to give me your address I will copy and mail
them to you. My scanner is out of operation at the present time.

Ann

"fuga =^o^=" wrote in message ble.rogers.com...

Purina, and I have the reports from Mann Labs in Mississauga to
confirm this was what was found in the food along with over 20 other
metals.

Can we see these reports?

No problem, if you want to give me your address I will copy and mail
them to you. My scanner is out of operation at the present time.

Ann

olitter (PawsForThought) wrote in message ...
From: (Ann Martin)


(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message
...
Try zinc with a level of 1150 ppm? I could also state that three
mycotoxins were also found in this "premium" pet food.


OK, WHICH premium pet food are you referring to?

Purina, and I have the reports from Mann Labs in Mississauga to
confirm this was what was found in the food along with over 20 other
metals.

Wasn't it Nature's Recipe that had the mycotoxins in it? I thought I had read
that.

Yes, Lauren, in 1995 vomitoxin was found in the wheat screenings used
in the pet foods. The FDA did investigate but not out of concern for
the more then 150 dogs who became ill after eating Nature's Recipe.
They investigated because of human health concerns. Screenings are
the end of the milling process, the garbage left over from processing
wheat for human consumption.

The second case was in 1998 when at least 25 dogs died from
aflatoxins. The company involved was Doane Products that makes at
least fifty brands including Ol' Roy.

Ann

olitter (PawsForThought) wrote in message ...
From: (Ann Martin)


(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message
...
Try zinc with a level of 1150 ppm? I could also state that three
mycotoxins were also found in this "premium" pet food.


OK, WHICH premium pet food are you referring to?

Purina, and I have the reports from Mann Labs in Mississauga to
confirm this was what was found in the food along with over 20 other
metals.

Wasn't it Nature's Recipe that had the mycotoxins in it? I thought I had read
that.

Yes, Lauren, in 1995 vomitoxin was found in the wheat screenings used
in the pet foods. The FDA did investigate but not out of concern for
the more then 150 dogs who became ill after eating Nature's Recipe.
They investigated because of human health concerns. Screenings are
the end of the milling process, the garbage left over from processing
wheat for human consumption.

The second case was in 1998 when at least 25 dogs died from
aflatoxins. The company involved was Doane Products that makes at
least fifty brands including Ol' Roy.

Ann

From: (Ann Martin)

(PawsForThought) wrote in message
...
From: (Ann Martin)


(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message
...
Try zinc with a level of 1150 ppm? I could also state that three
mycotoxins were also found in this "premium" pet food.


OK, WHICH premium pet food are you referring to?

Purina, and I have the reports from Mann Labs in Mississauga to
confirm this was what was found in the food along with over 20 other
metals.

Wasn't it Nature's Recipe that had the mycotoxins in it? I thought I had
read
that.

Yes, Lauren, in 1995 vomitoxin was found in the wheat screenings used
in the pet foods. The FDA did investigate but not out of concern for
the more then 150 dogs who became ill after eating Nature's Recipe.
They investigated because of human health concerns. Screenings are
the end of the milling process, the garbage left over from processing
wheat for human consumption.

The second case was in 1998 when at least 25 dogs died from
aflatoxins. The company involved was Doane Products that makes at
least fifty brands including Ol' Roy.

Makes me wonder all the times my cats threw up and I thought maybe they had a
hairball what really caused it. I used to feed Purina. I still have a red dye
stain on my carpet from where one of my cats threw up. Nothing will take the
stain out.

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm