Bad Neighbors & Morganna Update

wrote in message
...
Karen wrote:

You know I like you Megan and admire
your knowledge and your work with cats,
but you cannot possibly know how others
lives are. I do not. You do not.

Ginger-lyn has gone to great pains to give us the details of her life
and since she's posting in a public forum she damn well knows she's
going get responses that she may not like. You know this too. You may
"like" me, but it doesn't stop you from criticizing me when I get angry
about laziness, complacency and harm coming to a kitten. Yet you "like"
Ginger-lyn, but you won't criticize her handing a kitten over to an
animal abuser. What's wrong with this picture?

It's
not a matter of being cowardly, but of
doing the best in your power. I do not
believe you have always been able to
help every cat you ever knew about in
distress. It is simply impossible.

In this instance and the previous ones it has been all about being a
coward, and if you don't see that it's because you refuse to. You have a
habit of reading posts yet often not seeing the full implications of
what is in them.

Your
haranguing is NOT an effective means of
helping animals either. You have many,
many, many admirable ideas and you are
very helpful at times, but this habit
you have of badgering people is not
helpful and generally harmful and yes,
maybe even harmful to the cats as well
since you can manage to set some people
up to never even try again through your
condemnation of any effort.

This is complete and utter bull****. If people don't act on something,
it's because they make the choice not to and nothing I do or say is
going to control a complete stranger posting on usenet. And I am not
condemning Ginger-lyn's "efforts." What I am condemning is her LACK OF
effort which was clearly illustrated in her post where she goes on about
what "might" be, but doesn't lift a finger to see what her options are.
Apparently you haven't noticed that she is happy to complain, but there
is NOT ONE SINGLE ****ING REQUEST for ideas on how to get the kitten
back. Just whining. No wonder she's in the situation she's in.

I'm sorry if
this angers you toward me because you
have given me exceptional help, but I
cannot sit by and watch you do this over
and over.

Yet you can sit by and watch Ginger-lyn hand a kitten to an animal
abuser over and over.

You are not even consistent in
your "wrath" since I am certain you see
many things of which you do not approve
or where you think people could "do
better".

I am completely consistent in my principles. I have a life, Karen. I
can't spend 24 hours a day on the internet on every little subject. I
have 24 cats to support which requires MONEY and I have to get it by
WORKING. When I do get on a tear, it's generally directed towards
soneone who should know better, or, as in Ginger-lyn's case,
CONTINUOUSLY "rescues" cats then turns right around and puts them in
jeopardy and is consistently stupid/complacent/lazy in the choices she
makes.

Why do you insist on harping on
Ginger-Lyn? What is your prejudice?

See above.

Almost 100 percent of your posts are
condemning and belittling. Why do you
never ever post in support of something?

I do, and for you to claim I don't is a lie. You know damn well that the
welfare of cats is where I place priority and I don't give a **** who it
is, if they are doing something to endanger/neglect/harm a cat I'm going
to say something and if "feelings" get hurt that's their problem.

I'm certain I've done or said things you
don't approve of either. It seems like
you are completely "after" Ginger-Lyn
and I do not understand your venom on
one person here.

Because the wellbeing of a kitten is at stake and this ho-hum, weak,
boo-hoo it's out of my hands attitude disgusts me.

Megan

You know Megan, you completely missed my point. Simply put, you will catch
more flies with honey than vinegar. I will never disparage your work or your
knowledge but your people ability is sadly lacking. To be honest, you can
say whatever you like, but I really don't believe it's all about the cats
anymore. Your posts are much too inflamatory and uneven in nature. How you
choose who you are going to berate is a mystery. I'm quite certain you
could find fault with everyone if you tried. It is as though you are sitting
in some omnipotent glass bubble and picking and choosing who and what you
are going to descend on this day or that day. It isn't effective, no matter
*what* you believe. It isn't going to change the world. It's usually going
to make people stop listening altogether. If that is your goal, then you are
achieving it. I know I am certain that this weak, ho-hum, boohooer (for
certainly you think very little of me that I did not FLY to Ohio and pick up
the kitten from Ginger-lyn - or any of us here for that matter) has really
lost the ability to take you seriously when your ONLY tactic is to fly into
temper tantrum after temper tantrum in public. It. Doesn't. Work. That is
the point. It's that simple. You are shooting your own cause in the foot by
continuing the behaviour. I hope you can see that one day because your work
is great and your knowledge is terrific and your heart is in the right place
but your means of communication needs work.

wrote in message
...
Karen wrote:

You know I like you Megan and admire
your knowledge and your work with cats,
but you cannot possibly know how others
lives are. I do not. You do not.

Ginger-lyn has gone to great pains to give us the details of her life
and since she's posting in a public forum she damn well knows she's
going get responses that she may not like. You know this too. You may
"like" me, but it doesn't stop you from criticizing me when I get angry
about laziness, complacency and harm coming to a kitten. Yet you "like"
Ginger-lyn, but you won't criticize her handing a kitten over to an
animal abuser. What's wrong with this picture?

It's
not a matter of being cowardly, but of
doing the best in your power. I do not
believe you have always been able to
help every cat you ever knew about in
distress. It is simply impossible.

In this instance and the previous ones it has been all about being a
coward, and if you don't see that it's because you refuse to. You have a
habit of reading posts yet often not seeing the full implications of
what is in them.

Your
haranguing is NOT an effective means of
helping animals either. You have many,
many, many admirable ideas and you are
very helpful at times, but this habit
you have of badgering people is not
helpful and generally harmful and yes,
maybe even harmful to the cats as well
since you can manage to set some people
up to never even try again through your
condemnation of any effort.

This is complete and utter bull****. If people don't act on something,
it's because they make the choice not to and nothing I do or say is
going to control a complete stranger posting on usenet. And I am not
condemning Ginger-lyn's "efforts." What I am condemning is her LACK OF
effort which was clearly illustrated in her post where she goes on about
what "might" be, but doesn't lift a finger to see what her options are.
Apparently you haven't noticed that she is happy to complain, but there
is NOT ONE SINGLE ****ING REQUEST for ideas on how to get the kitten
back. Just whining. No wonder she's in the situation she's in.

I'm sorry if
this angers you toward me because you
have given me exceptional help, but I
cannot sit by and watch you do this over
and over.

Yet you can sit by and watch Ginger-lyn hand a kitten to an animal
abuser over and over.

You are not even consistent in
your "wrath" since I am certain you see
many things of which you do not approve
or where you think people could "do
better".

I am completely consistent in my principles. I have a life, Karen. I
can't spend 24 hours a day on the internet on every little subject. I
have 24 cats to support which requires MONEY and I have to get it by
WORKING. When I do get on a tear, it's generally directed towards
soneone who should know better, or, as in Ginger-lyn's case,
CONTINUOUSLY "rescues" cats then turns right around and puts them in
jeopardy and is consistently stupid/complacent/lazy in the choices she
makes.

Why do you insist on harping on
Ginger-Lyn? What is your prejudice?

See above.

Almost 100 percent of your posts are
condemning and belittling. Why do you
never ever post in support of something?

I do, and for you to claim I don't is a lie. You know damn well that the
welfare of cats is where I place priority and I don't give a **** who it
is, if they are doing something to endanger/neglect/harm a cat I'm going
to say something and if "feelings" get hurt that's their problem.

I'm certain I've done or said things you
don't approve of either. It seems like
you are completely "after" Ginger-Lyn
and I do not understand your venom on
one person here.

Because the wellbeing of a kitten is at stake and this ho-hum, weak,
boo-hoo it's out of my hands attitude disgusts me.

Megan

You know Megan, you completely missed my point. Simply put, you will catch
more flies with honey than vinegar. I will never disparage your work or your
knowledge but your people ability is sadly lacking. To be honest, you can
say whatever you like, but I really don't believe it's all about the cats
anymore. Your posts are much too inflamatory and uneven in nature. How you
choose who you are going to berate is a mystery. I'm quite certain you
could find fault with everyone if you tried. It is as though you are sitting
in some omnipotent glass bubble and picking and choosing who and what you
are going to descend on this day or that day. It isn't effective, no matter
*what* you believe. It isn't going to change the world. It's usually going
to make people stop listening altogether. If that is your goal, then you are
achieving it. I know I am certain that this weak, ho-hum, boohooer (for
certainly you think very little of me that I did not FLY to Ohio and pick up
the kitten from Ginger-lyn - or any of us here for that matter) has really
lost the ability to take you seriously when your ONLY tactic is to fly into
temper tantrum after temper tantrum in public. It. Doesn't. Work. That is
the point. It's that simple. You are shooting your own cause in the foot by
continuing the behaviour. I hope you can see that one day because your work
is great and your knowledge is terrific and your heart is in the right place
but your means of communication needs work.

wrote in message
...
Karen wrote:

You know I like you Megan and admire
your knowledge and your work with cats,
but you cannot possibly know how others
lives are. I do not. You do not.

Ginger-lyn has gone to great pains to give us the details of her life
and since she's posting in a public forum she damn well knows she's
going get responses that she may not like. You know this too. You may
"like" me, but it doesn't stop you from criticizing me when I get angry
about laziness, complacency and harm coming to a kitten. Yet you "like"
Ginger-lyn, but you won't criticize her handing a kitten over to an
animal abuser. What's wrong with this picture?

It's
not a matter of being cowardly, but of
doing the best in your power. I do not
believe you have always been able to
help every cat you ever knew about in
distress. It is simply impossible.

In this instance and the previous ones it has been all about being a
coward, and if you don't see that it's because you refuse to. You have a
habit of reading posts yet often not seeing the full implications of
what is in them.

Your
haranguing is NOT an effective means of
helping animals either. You have many,
many, many admirable ideas and you are
very helpful at times, but this habit
you have of badgering people is not
helpful and generally harmful and yes,
maybe even harmful to the cats as well
since you can manage to set some people
up to never even try again through your
condemnation of any effort.

This is complete and utter bull****. If people don't act on something,
it's because they make the choice not to and nothing I do or say is
going to control a complete stranger posting on usenet. And I am not
condemning Ginger-lyn's "efforts." What I am condemning is her LACK OF
effort which was clearly illustrated in her post where she goes on about
what "might" be, but doesn't lift a finger to see what her options are.
Apparently you haven't noticed that she is happy to complain, but there
is NOT ONE SINGLE ****ING REQUEST for ideas on how to get the kitten
back. Just whining. No wonder she's in the situation she's in.

I'm sorry if
this angers you toward me because you
have given me exceptional help, but I
cannot sit by and watch you do this over
and over.

Yet you can sit by and watch Ginger-lyn hand a kitten to an animal
abuser over and over.

You are not even consistent in
your "wrath" since I am certain you see
many things of which you do not approve
or where you think people could "do
better".

I am completely consistent in my principles. I have a life, Karen. I
can't spend 24 hours a day on the internet on every little subject. I
have 24 cats to support which requires MONEY and I have to get it by
WORKING. When I do get on a tear, it's generally directed towards
soneone who should know better, or, as in Ginger-lyn's case,
CONTINUOUSLY "rescues" cats then turns right around and puts them in
jeopardy and is consistently stupid/complacent/lazy in the choices she
makes.

Why do you insist on harping on
Ginger-Lyn? What is your prejudice?

See above.

Almost 100 percent of your posts are
condemning and belittling. Why do you
never ever post in support of something?

I do, and for you to claim I don't is a lie. You know damn well that the
welfare of cats is where I place priority and I don't give a **** who it
is, if they are doing something to endanger/neglect/harm a cat I'm going
to say something and if "feelings" get hurt that's their problem.

I'm certain I've done or said things you
don't approve of either. It seems like
you are completely "after" Ginger-Lyn
and I do not understand your venom on
one person here.

Because the wellbeing of a kitten is at stake and this ho-hum, weak,
boo-hoo it's out of my hands attitude disgusts me.

Megan

You know Megan, you completely missed my point. Simply put, you will catch
more flies with honey than vinegar. I will never disparage your work or your
knowledge but your people ability is sadly lacking. To be honest, you can
say whatever you like, but I really don't believe it's all about the cats
anymore. Your posts are much too inflamatory and uneven in nature. How you
choose who you are going to berate is a mystery. I'm quite certain you
could find fault with everyone if you tried. It is as though you are sitting
in some omnipotent glass bubble and picking and choosing who and what you
are going to descend on this day or that day. It isn't effective, no matter
*what* you believe. It isn't going to change the world. It's usually going
to make people stop listening altogether. If that is your goal, then you are
achieving it. I know I am certain that this weak, ho-hum, boohooer (for
certainly you think very little of me that I did not FLY to Ohio and pick up
the kitten from Ginger-lyn - or any of us here for that matter) has really
lost the ability to take you seriously when your ONLY tactic is to fly into
temper tantrum after temper tantrum in public. It. Doesn't. Work. That is
the point. It's that simple. You are shooting your own cause in the foot by
continuing the behaviour. I hope you can see that one day because your work
is great and your knowledge is terrific and your heart is in the right place
but your means of communication needs work.

You're doing the same thing, hypocrite. The fact is I have posted things
Ginger-lyn can still do, but in your hurry to jump on me you've
conveniently ignored that.

Megan, it's the *way* you offered suggestions. Ginger-lyn isn't a
"professional" rescuer. She doesn't even work with a shelter, AFAIK. She is
just a kindhearted, compassionate person who saw wrong and tried to right it.
She made a mistake. Didn't you make mistakes when you first started rescuing?
You act like she just threw up her hands and gave up. I didn't read it that
way. She's trying to educate the new owner into changing her mind. Suppose the
information she's offered to the new owner *is* enough to change her mind about
declaw. She's not only saved *that* cat from declaw, but many more. I think
educating the new owner is a far better approach than grabbing the cat away
from an otherwise good home. So many people who truly love cats are easy to
convert. They're declawers because they don't really know much about it. I
admit I don't have the information on the new owner to really make a judgment
whether she is open to receiving that information though.
Grabbing the cat away will save *that* cat from declaw, but she'll just get
another one.

Sherry

You're doing the same thing, hypocrite. The fact is I have posted things
Ginger-lyn can still do, but in your hurry to jump on me you've
conveniently ignored that.

Megan, it's the *way* you offered suggestions. Ginger-lyn isn't a
"professional" rescuer. She doesn't even work with a shelter, AFAIK. She is
just a kindhearted, compassionate person who saw wrong and tried to right it.
She made a mistake. Didn't you make mistakes when you first started rescuing?
You act like she just threw up her hands and gave up. I didn't read it that
way. She's trying to educate the new owner into changing her mind. Suppose the
information she's offered to the new owner *is* enough to change her mind about
declaw. She's not only saved *that* cat from declaw, but many more. I think
educating the new owner is a far better approach than grabbing the cat away
from an otherwise good home. So many people who truly love cats are easy to
convert. They're declawers because they don't really know much about it. I
admit I don't have the information on the new owner to really make a judgment
whether she is open to receiving that information though.
Grabbing the cat away will save *that* cat from declaw, but she'll just get
another one.

Sherry

You're doing the same thing, hypocrite. The fact is I have posted things
Ginger-lyn can still do, but in your hurry to jump on me you've
conveniently ignored that.

Megan, it's the *way* you offered suggestions. Ginger-lyn isn't a
"professional" rescuer. She doesn't even work with a shelter, AFAIK. She is
just a kindhearted, compassionate person who saw wrong and tried to right it.
She made a mistake. Didn't you make mistakes when you first started rescuing?
You act like she just threw up her hands and gave up. I didn't read it that
way. She's trying to educate the new owner into changing her mind. Suppose the
information she's offered to the new owner *is* enough to change her mind about
declaw. She's not only saved *that* cat from declaw, but many more. I think
educating the new owner is a far better approach than grabbing the cat away
from an otherwise good home. So many people who truly love cats are easy to
convert. They're declawers because they don't really know much about it. I
admit I don't have the information on the new owner to really make a judgment
whether she is open to receiving that information though.
Grabbing the cat away will save *that* cat from declaw, but she'll just get
another one.

Sherry

"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
Karen wrote:

in article ,

at wrote on 9/26/04 8:13 PM:

She SHOULD feel bad. She has failed this kitten TWICE now. It's still
not too late to do something, but you've made it clear that you've
already written this kitten off and you're nothing short of despicable
for doing so.

Megan

You know I like you Megan and admire your knowledge and your work with
cats,
but you cannot possibly know how others lives are.

I've actually been hoping for the past couple of months that she would
not be too mad at all of us, and come back to the newsgroup. I also
hoped that she would go easy on us this time around, but no such luck.


But to be honest, I've never been able to get offended by Megan. Her
posts are so extreme, they almost need a BW. I hope she'll stick
around longer this time, even if she ends up posting 95% flames and 5%
anecdotes.

The problem is that she is really a kind hearted person towards cats and
very good at what she does and very helpful if she chooses not to alienate a
person first. I find it very troublesome that such a good person is
alienating everyone to her ideas by her delivery.

"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
Karen wrote:

in article ,

at wrote on 9/26/04 8:13 PM:

She SHOULD feel bad. She has failed this kitten TWICE now. It's still
not too late to do something, but you've made it clear that you've
already written this kitten off and you're nothing short of despicable
for doing so.

Megan

You know I like you Megan and admire your knowledge and your work with
cats,
but you cannot possibly know how others lives are.

I've actually been hoping for the past couple of months that she would
not be too mad at all of us, and come back to the newsgroup. I also
hoped that she would go easy on us this time around, but no such luck.


But to be honest, I've never been able to get offended by Megan. Her
posts are so extreme, they almost need a BW. I hope she'll stick
around longer this time, even if she ends up posting 95% flames and 5%
anecdotes.

The problem is that she is really a kind hearted person towards cats and
very good at what she does and very helpful if she chooses not to alienate a
person first. I find it very troublesome that such a good person is
alienating everyone to her ideas by her delivery.

"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
Karen wrote:

in article ,

at wrote on 9/26/04 8:13 PM:

She SHOULD feel bad. She has failed this kitten TWICE now. It's still
not too late to do something, but you've made it clear that you've
already written this kitten off and you're nothing short of despicable
for doing so.

Megan

You know I like you Megan and admire your knowledge and your work with
cats,
but you cannot possibly know how others lives are.

I've actually been hoping for the past couple of months that she would
not be too mad at all of us, and come back to the newsgroup. I also
hoped that she would go easy on us this time around, but no such luck.


But to be honest, I've never been able to get offended by Megan. Her
posts are so extreme, they almost need a BW. I hope she'll stick
around longer this time, even if she ends up posting 95% flames and 5%
anecdotes.

The problem is that she is really a kind hearted person towards cats and
very good at what she does and very helpful if she chooses not to alienate a
person first. I find it very troublesome that such a good person is
alienating everyone to her ideas by her delivery.

OK, I can see both sides of this ensuing argument, and I have a few
suggestions that may help stem this tide and hopefully get the group back on
track so we won't tear ourselves apart (and that wouldn't be to *anyone's*
benefit, including our furry owners).

First, Megan is right about one thing. I think Ginger-lyn needs to try
harder to either convince the fosterer to *not* declaw the kitten (with
written assurances), or get the kitten back to give to someone who is better
suited to having a clawed housemate. That's why I posted the link to the
horribly graphic site that shows an actual declawing. I think Ginger-lyn
should print these out and use them as "ammunition" when she talks to the
fosterer about not declawing the kitten.

However, not everyone is as forthright and assertive as Megan is (or I am).
Some people are *very* non-confrontational. [There are all kinds of people
in this world, thank goodness, and we can't assume that everyone is just
like ourselves or will react to a situation the way we would.] It is
extremely hard, sometimes almost impossible, for someone who has a mild
demeanor to stand up for themselves or someone else. Ginger-lyn may not be
"able" to take a stand on this issue - especially if the fosterer is a very
assertive person (which she seems to be since she has pushed ahead so boldly
with just taking the kitten).

I think what Ginger-lyn needs is not a "dressing down" for not being
assertive enough (this only causes an introverted person to be *more*
introverted - it does not help them to be more assertive). It's easy for an
assertive, extroverted person to say, "Just go over there and *take* the
kitten." but, unfortunately, it's not at all easy for an introverted person
to do. What Ginger-lyn *does* need is a "script" for what to do. A
specific set of instructions, taking into account most possible reactions
from the fosterer, so that she is "armed" with knowledge of how to handle an
assertive personality. She also needs "hints" on how to at least seem
assertive so that she doesn't get walked on.

Being an assertive person myself, I can help by giving my advice, but even
so I can't be there to do it for her. I can only lend cyber courage and
moral support. However, if Ginger-lyn would like to know how *I* would
handle the situation, I'd be glad to share that with her. I'm sure Megan
would too. But, Megan, just saying, "Get off your ass and go get the
kitten." is not going to help the situation. All it will do is to cause
Ginger-lyn to back off from the group, retreat within herself, and erode her
courage even more and will actually hurt the situation and cause her to be
less likely to try and get the kitten - the opposite, I'm sure, of what
you're trying to do, which is to help the kitten.

Megan, I understand your frustration, and the urgency you feel to get this
kitten into a safe situation - I feel the same way. I think declawing is a
horrible, painful mutilation of a helpless animal and I cringe even thinking
about it. But we need to focus on helping the kitten, and that means giving
Ginger-lyn help in getting the kitten back or getting an assurance that the
kitten will not be declawed. You're right in that Ginger-lyn didn't ask for
instructions in how to get the kitten back - a shy, introverted person my
not even imagine that she could be able to do this.

If we all just take a step back, take a deep breath, and use all this energy
(and the assertiveness we're displaying ;) we may be able to put our heads
together and figure out a way to help Ginger-lyn and, in the process, help
the kitten too.

Ginger-lyn, if you do want advice and help in being more assertive you can
either respond to this post or send me an email (even send me your phone
number so I can call you), and I'll help you in any way I can.

Hugs,

CatNipped