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Indoor cat..quality of life?



 
 
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  #352  
Old September 10th 04, 04:32 PM
Jeannie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message
m...

"Jeannie" wrote

There is. And I think the underlying attitude I mention in other

posts--the one of cats being "just animals" vs the one of cats being

family members
essentially equal to humans in value--is also a factor in the

indoor/outdoor issue. I see this in the posts of the people who post from
the UK;

Who in this thread has made a statement like this?


Who said anyone did? And who WOULD actually state something like this?


You post implied you were talking about *this thread", ... you may now
continue to back-track if you wish....BTW why are you posting in HTML?

That's why I said "underlying attitude." I can't prove an underlying

attitude.
But I know it is there, in many people. How do I know? Their behavior

tells me
that the cat is dispensable. My friend, for example (who was from Scotland,

by
the way) a great horse and dog and cat woman--who stated outright that she

would
rather her cats have shorter lives--in other words die young--than not be

allowed
outside and she ALWAYS lived in busy urban areas. So far she has killed

three cats.
THAT tells me that she can bear to lose them. Even if she had not said it,

any idiot
could tell it by her behavior. She always got a new cat when one died. The

most recent
is declawed, and I can only hope this stupid bitch is keeping him inside.

All that aside,
we are discussing people and pets in general terms. Therefore whether or

not anyone "in
this thread" made a statement "like this" is not pertinent. Do I think any

of you feel this
way? You might.


I think it is extremely pertinent as, it seems to me that you were casting
aspersions again without any evidence to back them up. Tut, Tut


some of
you have seen it when you have taken your pets to large animal
veterinarians. Then there is the "garden of eden" complex, where

whatever
is
natural, including death via predators, is just the way it goes.


Who thinks this way?

I believe I have hit a nerve.

No Mary, although I'm afraid you may have hit yourself in the head again


These factors taken together with the fact that it is just so
much more convenient to let your cat come and go as it
pleases--especially with regard to cleaning cat boxes


Not true...


I see. So it is harder to clean the cat box when your cat eliminates out

of doors?

I have to clean the litter-tray every day as I have already said.


and
being mindful of whether or not anybody gets out--


Why is making work for yourself somehow more worthy when said work is
un-necessary?


LOL! I DID hit a nerve. Here you are essentially admitting
that you let your cats roam to save you the work of cleaning
their boxes.


No...see above


and
I truly believe that these attitudes lead people to let their
animals roam in situations that are truly dangerous for
the animals. Such as in busy urban or suburban areas,
or in urban areas where there are active predators.


No-one has advocated this, in this thread at least...

That is what is behind the venom in some of my
comments. To endanger our pets for our convenience
and then dress it up in a "wild thing be free" romanticized
crock of horse**** is the worst.


I have not read a single post where the "born free" mentality was

apparent;
are we reading the same thread?


A clue for you, Princess: I have been reading this group and
all of the cat groups for years.


Well done...


Want to see manifestations of
this attitude?


I've no need to Google, I know the attitude exists, it just doesn't exist in
this thread which was why I couldn't fathom why you bought it up.

Google for it. But you know it exists. Look in the
mirror.


I have looked in the mirror Mary and found my face looking back at me, I
don't generally find that I can see "attitudes" in a mirror, maybe you can,
who knows. You seem to be able to see "underlying attitudes" in newsgroups
although this could be because you don't actually *read* the posts.

Anyhow, it's Friday night, I've just got paid and I've got better things to
do than sit in front of a computer arguing in ever decreasing circles with
you about cat's!

Jeannie



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  #353  
Old September 10th 04, 04:32 PM
Jeannie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message
m...

"Jeannie" wrote

There is. And I think the underlying attitude I mention in other

posts--the one of cats being "just animals" vs the one of cats being

family members
essentially equal to humans in value--is also a factor in the

indoor/outdoor issue. I see this in the posts of the people who post from
the UK;

Who in this thread has made a statement like this?


Who said anyone did? And who WOULD actually state something like this?


You post implied you were talking about *this thread", ... you may now
continue to back-track if you wish....BTW why are you posting in HTML?

That's why I said "underlying attitude." I can't prove an underlying

attitude.
But I know it is there, in many people. How do I know? Their behavior

tells me
that the cat is dispensable. My friend, for example (who was from Scotland,

by
the way) a great horse and dog and cat woman--who stated outright that she

would
rather her cats have shorter lives--in other words die young--than not be

allowed
outside and she ALWAYS lived in busy urban areas. So far she has killed

three cats.
THAT tells me that she can bear to lose them. Even if she had not said it,

any idiot
could tell it by her behavior. She always got a new cat when one died. The

most recent
is declawed, and I can only hope this stupid bitch is keeping him inside.

All that aside,
we are discussing people and pets in general terms. Therefore whether or

not anyone "in
this thread" made a statement "like this" is not pertinent. Do I think any

of you feel this
way? You might.


I think it is extremely pertinent as, it seems to me that you were casting
aspersions again without any evidence to back them up. Tut, Tut


some of
you have seen it when you have taken your pets to large animal
veterinarians. Then there is the "garden of eden" complex, where

whatever
is
natural, including death via predators, is just the way it goes.


Who thinks this way?

I believe I have hit a nerve.

No Mary, although I'm afraid you may have hit yourself in the head again


These factors taken together with the fact that it is just so
much more convenient to let your cat come and go as it
pleases--especially with regard to cleaning cat boxes


Not true...


I see. So it is harder to clean the cat box when your cat eliminates out

of doors?

I have to clean the litter-tray every day as I have already said.


and
being mindful of whether or not anybody gets out--


Why is making work for yourself somehow more worthy when said work is
un-necessary?


LOL! I DID hit a nerve. Here you are essentially admitting
that you let your cats roam to save you the work of cleaning
their boxes.


No...see above


and
I truly believe that these attitudes lead people to let their
animals roam in situations that are truly dangerous for
the animals. Such as in busy urban or suburban areas,
or in urban areas where there are active predators.


No-one has advocated this, in this thread at least...

That is what is behind the venom in some of my
comments. To endanger our pets for our convenience
and then dress it up in a "wild thing be free" romanticized
crock of horse**** is the worst.


I have not read a single post where the "born free" mentality was

apparent;
are we reading the same thread?


A clue for you, Princess: I have been reading this group and
all of the cat groups for years.


Well done...


Want to see manifestations of
this attitude?


I've no need to Google, I know the attitude exists, it just doesn't exist in
this thread which was why I couldn't fathom why you bought it up.

Google for it. But you know it exists. Look in the
mirror.


I have looked in the mirror Mary and found my face looking back at me, I
don't generally find that I can see "attitudes" in a mirror, maybe you can,
who knows. You seem to be able to see "underlying attitudes" in newsgroups
although this could be because you don't actually *read* the posts.

Anyhow, it's Friday night, I've just got paid and I've got better things to
do than sit in front of a computer arguing in ever decreasing circles with
you about cat's!

Jeannie



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 22/07/04


  #354  
Old September 10th 04, 05:00 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message om...
(...)
cats being outside. Behind even the most measured words
(such as Steve G.'s) there is an underlying, deeply entrenched
cultural more that probably finds its roots in the Romantic
period.


Bwahahahaha - of all the quasi-intellectual ******** you've posted in
this thread, this is by far the silliest. All you need to do is throw
in a couple of Jungian archetypes and a bit o' relativism and you'd
win the prize for most confused Usenet babble, 2004.

The glorification and simultaneous demonizing
and eroticizing of nature.


You are the one demonizing nature here.

A cultural thing? So, I guess all those American mountaineers don't
actually exist. Ansel Adams was just a mass hallucination.As was Moran
and the rest.

(...)
It's a kneejerk reaction to hundreds of years on conditioning,
not a response to rational thought.


Wonderful. I haven't heard such wooly thought for quite some time.
Cultural classical conditioning as a reason for pets having access to
the outdoors, fantastic. Now, put the LSD down and WALK SLOWLY BACK.

Steve.
  #355  
Old September 10th 04, 05:00 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message om...
(...)
cats being outside. Behind even the most measured words
(such as Steve G.'s) there is an underlying, deeply entrenched
cultural more that probably finds its roots in the Romantic
period.


Bwahahahaha - of all the quasi-intellectual ******** you've posted in
this thread, this is by far the silliest. All you need to do is throw
in a couple of Jungian archetypes and a bit o' relativism and you'd
win the prize for most confused Usenet babble, 2004.

The glorification and simultaneous demonizing
and eroticizing of nature.


You are the one demonizing nature here.

A cultural thing? So, I guess all those American mountaineers don't
actually exist. Ansel Adams was just a mass hallucination.As was Moran
and the rest.

(...)
It's a kneejerk reaction to hundreds of years on conditioning,
not a response to rational thought.


Wonderful. I haven't heard such wooly thought for quite some time.
Cultural classical conditioning as a reason for pets having access to
the outdoors, fantastic. Now, put the LSD down and WALK SLOWLY BACK.

Steve.
  #356  
Old September 10th 04, 05:23 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message om...
(...)
petty. As far as insulting anyone's nationality, the arrogance of the
British with regard to the exercise of power over the colonies
is the worst kept secret in history.


Here's a clue for you old girl: The British Empire and colonies are
long past. However, other countries now have the opportunity to lead
the way in abuse under the banner of God. Mind you, perhaps the likes
of Abu Ghraib just waft over your head - hey, **** the towelheads,
they're only worthless foreigners anyway.?

(...)
because they are British. God's chosen leaders. Etc., etc.
blah blah. Historical fact.


God's chosen leaders? Hmmm:

"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."
- George Bush (http://politicalwire.com/archives/20...f_the_day.html).

I suppose you hate those ****in' Nazi Germans too. Not to mention the
Italians - bloody Roman empire, riding roughshod over Europe.

(...)

Sophistry. I find that sad. I simply refuse to acknowledge the nastiness
you think of as irony. It arises from your petty, sneering nature--
Steve's got a good touch of it too


S'funny, I don't recall attacking someone's country in this thread.
Haven't called anyone a bitch in this thread. Haven't implied that
people with a different attitude to their pets than me must not care
for there pets. Haven't attempted to demean others views simply
because I disagree with them. Haven't accused people is disagree with
of being too lazy to read the thread. Haven't called someone a 'mental
dwarf'. Haven't gone around crying that Americans have a tendency to
overestimate their own intelligence.

Petty, sneering nature indeed.

--whenever you suspect you
may be in the wrong. It's transparent posturing, nothing more,
and not worthy of my acknowledgement. No charge for that analysis.


You seem to have made of lot of replies to things that are 'not
worthy' of your acknowledgement.

(...)

Now why would my nationality be a secret? On the other hand,
why would I tell you anything personal about myself? You get
to know exactly what I tell you about myself.


Oh, I think we know rather more than that.

Steve.
  #357  
Old September 10th 04, 05:23 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message om...
(...)
petty. As far as insulting anyone's nationality, the arrogance of the
British with regard to the exercise of power over the colonies
is the worst kept secret in history.


Here's a clue for you old girl: The British Empire and colonies are
long past. However, other countries now have the opportunity to lead
the way in abuse under the banner of God. Mind you, perhaps the likes
of Abu Ghraib just waft over your head - hey, **** the towelheads,
they're only worthless foreigners anyway.?

(...)
because they are British. God's chosen leaders. Etc., etc.
blah blah. Historical fact.


God's chosen leaders? Hmmm:

"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."
- George Bush (http://politicalwire.com/archives/20...f_the_day.html).

I suppose you hate those ****in' Nazi Germans too. Not to mention the
Italians - bloody Roman empire, riding roughshod over Europe.

(...)

Sophistry. I find that sad. I simply refuse to acknowledge the nastiness
you think of as irony. It arises from your petty, sneering nature--
Steve's got a good touch of it too


S'funny, I don't recall attacking someone's country in this thread.
Haven't called anyone a bitch in this thread. Haven't implied that
people with a different attitude to their pets than me must not care
for there pets. Haven't attempted to demean others views simply
because I disagree with them. Haven't accused people is disagree with
of being too lazy to read the thread. Haven't called someone a 'mental
dwarf'. Haven't gone around crying that Americans have a tendency to
overestimate their own intelligence.

Petty, sneering nature indeed.

--whenever you suspect you
may be in the wrong. It's transparent posturing, nothing more,
and not worthy of my acknowledgement. No charge for that analysis.


You seem to have made of lot of replies to things that are 'not
worthy' of your acknowledgement.

(...)

Now why would my nationality be a secret? On the other hand,
why would I tell you anything personal about myself? You get
to know exactly what I tell you about myself.


Oh, I think we know rather more than that.

Steve.
  #358  
Old September 10th 04, 05:44 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message om...
"Steve G" wrote in message
om...

(...)

If the objectivism / relativism argument is an essential part of
logical thought, then I'm a Norwegian pig-polisher named Olaf.


You can't determine what is true without deterimining what is real.
Nice to meet you, Olaf.


Well, scientists don't spend their time wondering whether their test
tubes actually exist, or whether the universe is really there or not.
Oh look - we've just looped back round to 'A is A'.

(...)

If they are fenced and nothing can get in at them, they might as well
be inside.


Well, no - the risks are still greater in a fenced garden than
indoors.

(...)

But there is a grain of truth in it. It is one of the things that
distinguishes general American thought about cats and that of the British.
In part because of the largely rural parts of Britain, and the "farmer"
mentality that an animal is just an animal and as such is pretty
much replaceable.


And this you state, in the land of the declaw.

Further, based on other - more representative discussion boards I read
- it seems that declaw (and outdoor access) are far more prevalent in
the US that you'd think from reading this forum.

Here's another clue: Britain ain't a nation of farmers (the old saw is
'a nation of shopkeepers', and even a nation of pet lovers, though I
don't suppose your clear contempt for Brits would ever let you accept
that).

US farm people can be the same way. I will
admit that I hate this, because I don't think they are dispensable.


Letting a cat have outdoor access is not synonymous with thinking the
cat is dispensible.

S.
  #359  
Old September 10th 04, 05:44 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message om...
"Steve G" wrote in message
om...

(...)

If the objectivism / relativism argument is an essential part of
logical thought, then I'm a Norwegian pig-polisher named Olaf.


You can't determine what is true without deterimining what is real.
Nice to meet you, Olaf.


Well, scientists don't spend their time wondering whether their test
tubes actually exist, or whether the universe is really there or not.
Oh look - we've just looped back round to 'A is A'.

(...)

If they are fenced and nothing can get in at them, they might as well
be inside.


Well, no - the risks are still greater in a fenced garden than
indoors.

(...)

But there is a grain of truth in it. It is one of the things that
distinguishes general American thought about cats and that of the British.
In part because of the largely rural parts of Britain, and the "farmer"
mentality that an animal is just an animal and as such is pretty
much replaceable.


And this you state, in the land of the declaw.

Further, based on other - more representative discussion boards I read
- it seems that declaw (and outdoor access) are far more prevalent in
the US that you'd think from reading this forum.

Here's another clue: Britain ain't a nation of farmers (the old saw is
'a nation of shopkeepers', and even a nation of pet lovers, though I
don't suppose your clear contempt for Brits would ever let you accept
that).

US farm people can be the same way. I will
admit that I hate this, because I don't think they are dispensable.


Letting a cat have outdoor access is not synonymous with thinking the
cat is dispensible.

S.
  #360  
Old September 10th 04, 06:02 PM
Alison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mary" wrote in message
m...

There certainly are two sides to this debate. There are more than
two sides, in fact. That's what debates are about. It's a

discussion,
FCS. Anyone who feels strongly about anything would "come across
as feeling superior" to you, because you lack the skills to counter
the basic arguments. Once you've done the "give me a specific
example" and the creative snipping that takes comments out
of context, all you have left is "nice superior attitude."

Fortunately,
posturing doesn't get you much.



Mary, you remind me of our PM , he makes things up in his head ,
believes his own lies , denies everything even when it placed under
its nose and ignores what he doesn't like.
It's impossible to debate anything with you; you simply don't debate
and you have no intention of debating, full stop.
If you are going to make allegations then you have to be prepared to
prove they are true if called to do so.
Now , you said this

one of cats being "just animals" vs the one of cats being

family
members
essentially equal to humans in value--is also a factor in the

indoor/outdoor
issue. I see this in the posts of the people who post from the

UK;

You haven't produced any of these alleged posts so why should we
accept this statement ?
You might have misconstrued what was said or perhaps they're figments
of your imagination .
BTW it's interesting to see you haven't responded to Tracy's post .
Alison


 




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