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#22
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kaeli wrote: (...) I was looking around, and it seems it is only harmful to cats already IN renal failure or old enough that their organs aren't in great shape. CRF cats seem to be badly affected by it. But one would hope you'd know if you had a cat with CRF! Anyone care to refute that or point me to better info? Problem is that it's difficult (impossible?) to catch CRF early, so by the time it is detected, much damage may have been wreaked by a diet high in phosphorous. Steve. |
#23
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kaeli wrote: (...) In nature, wild cats eat plenty of protein and as far as I know do not have this problem. Does the phosphorus come from the way commercial foods are produced? Bone is high is phosphorous, and high phosphorous is consistent with meat (meal) that includes relatively more bone. Lean meat is relatively low in phos (and very low in calcium). Would a raw (or organic, all natural, etc) diet eliminate this problem? Can it be elimated from commercial foods? If so, why the hell isn't it? If not, why not? It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'organic', or 'natural' and diets of this type can be equally high in phos. Why is there no (or few) commercial diet that is very low in carbs, and also has an acceptable level of phos? Cost, I assume. (...) In cats, no, it has not been proven (anyone have any data?). In humans, excessive carb and sugar consumption DOES cause diabetes and aggravates existing pre-diabetes conditions. I'm not sure a definite causative link has actually been found, has it? (I'm no expert, mind). Steve. |
#24
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Steve Crane wrote: (...) Consider that renal failure has hugely increased in cats over the past decade. According to Perdue's database renal failure hit 0.9658% of cats in 1980 - in 1990 it had risen to 4.81% of cats and by the year 2000 it had risen to 10.31% of all cats. In a 20 year period renal disease has increased by a whopping ten fold increase. But what's the reason for this? Increased lifespan with a concomitant CRF increase? Or are cats getting CRF at an earlier age than previously? Or is it simply better detected these days, and the underlying incidence of CRF is unchanged? Or is it diet related? Since we cannot detect renal failure until it is much too late and the only possible result is a hard fast spiral toward death, feeding excessive amounts of phosphorus is a very huge risk to take. Particularly when we opt to do so based on completely unproven hypothesis and opinion, totally unsupported by any clinical trials. However, as other have pointed out, high phosphorous and low-carb are not synonymous. An additional problem with vegetable matter in cat foods has been highlighted by Funaba and colleagues in some recent articles. Notably, CGM was found to be associated with a higher incidence of urinary sediment (cf. fish meal) and thus more likely to contribute to urinary blockage (Funaba et al. 2001; J Vet Med Sci 63: 1355-1357). A second study comparing meat meal with CGM also found the latter to be less preferable as a food item: "loss of body calcium and magnesium for the CGM diet suggests that mineral requirements increase when CGM is used as a protein source." (from astract- Funaba et al., 2002; Am J Vet Res 63: 1247-1251) More recently, and of more relevance to this discussion, Funaba's group has found similar results when carbohydrates are added to cat food (Funaba et al., 2004; Am J Vet Res 65: 138-142): "Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats." (from the abstract - I have not yet read the complete article). Currently, it seems that only Funaba's group is plugging away at the carbohydrate / vegetable derivative problem (wonder who's funding 'em?), but their results do *not* support vegetable derivatives as the bestest in cat chow. Steve. |
#25
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#26
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Suzanne via CatKB.com wrote: Try looking at the ingredients, an easy rule of thumb I read is that there should be no byproducts (meat, fish, chicken, etc) listed in the first 20 ingredients listed. Actually, Suzanne, your approach has nothing to do w/ feline nutrition. There are too many games that can (legally) be played w/ the ingredient label. Ingredients are listed by their weight in descending order on ingredient labels. So what you are looking at is the weight of ingredients (water included) on canned food. That gives you absolutely no idea of the actual nutrition contained in the food, nor the quality of ingredients. |
#27
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I wrote:
snip primer on Steve Crane I forgot to add that his alter ego, the troll Chris Gaub (also a Hill's employee) is best ignored as well. He consistently lies and makes claims but refuses to provide cites to back them up. He is also a hypocrite (on the scale of Mary) and is best killfiled, or if you don't have that capability you can always skip his posts, as I do. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
#28
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wrote in message
... I wrote: snip primer on Steve Crane I forgot to add that his alter ego, the troll Chris Gaub (also a Hill's employee) is best ignored as well. He consistently lies and makes claims but refuses to provide cites to back them up. He is also a hypocrite (on the scale of Mary) and is best killfiled, or if you don't have that capability you can always skip his posts, as I do. Why Megan, thank you so much for telling us all what we should do! Gee, it's a wonder we can get our forks from our dishes to our mouths without you there telling us how, we're just that stupid. Folks, welcome to alt.Megan.is.queen.and.demands.a.f*cking.apology! "The only thing necessary for the triumph of stupidity is for smart (wo)men to do nothing." -CatNipped |
#29
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wrote in message ... I wrote: snip primer on Steve Crane I forgot to add that his alter ego, the troll Chris Gaub (also a Hill's employee) is best ignored as well. He consistently lies and makes claims but refuses to provide cites to back them up. He is also a hypocrite (on the scale of Mary) and is best killfiled, or if you don't have that capability you can always skip his posts, as I do. And yet, people have seen your behavior and are snorting at your sage advice! What a surprise. |
#30
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"kaeli" wrote in message I was looking around, and it seems it [phosphorus] is only harmful to cats already IN renal failure That may or may not be true. No one has ever conducted a prospective CRF study in cats from very young ages to determine the natural causes of CRF and follow the natural course of the disease. No one knows exactly when CRF begins in cats because nearly all of the CRF studies in cats were conducted on cats with surgically induced renal failure. The morphologic changes and effects of naturally occurring and naturally progressing disease don't ocurr in instant, surgically-induced CRF. Diets high in phosphorus can cause damage to the kidneys in at least two ways: first, by increasing GFR - a sustained increase in GFR damages the nephrons, and second, by promoting phosphorus and calcium deposits in the kidneys (renal mineralization/soft tissue calcification). Phosphorus retention (and calcification of soft tissue [kidneys, heart, brain, lungs]) can develop before the onset of hyperphosphatemia and hyperparathyroidism. This is from Carl Osborne, David Polzin and Sheri Ross in Ettinger's 6th edition- hot off the press: "Phosphate retention begins early in the course of CKD and has been implicated in promoting progressive renal injury in several species, including dogs and cats. A role for phosphorus in promoting progressive CKD is based on the observation that dietary phosphorus restriction limited renal-related mortality in dogs and renal mineralization in cats. Phosphorus may promote progression of CKD, at least in part, by precipitation with calcium in the renal interstitium. This renal mineralization may then initiate an inflammatory reaction, resulting in renal interstitial fibrosis and tubular atrophy" or old enough that their organs aren't in great shape. CRF cats seem to be badly affected by it. Renal mineralization has also been found in *normal*, *healthy* cats. But one would hope you'd know if you had a cat with CRF! Not without extensive tests, you won't. By the time CRF is detected with routine BUN/Creatinine tests, at least 2/3 to 3/4 of kidney function has already been lost. Anyone care to refute that or point me to better info? As I said, no one has ever conducted a prospective CRF study in cats from very young ages to determine the natural causes of CRF and to follow the natural course of the disease. |
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