How do I know if he is reblocking?

tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want to
say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with my
kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me by
my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is talking
about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of salt
to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before I
really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as well)
but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil, thank
you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more than
you know.

Phil P. wrote:
Any more questions?

[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]

No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name.

That's a surprise.

Why did you
not answer any of my questions?

Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a
few hundred
times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is
because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post.

I have done quite a bit of
research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
so surprised by your suggestion

Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it is--
Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough
and you don't know as much as you think you do.

is that it would seem to me
that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)

Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to determine
whose "qualified".

should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
it contains sufficient water content.

No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it?
Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the
first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group
to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying to
show how much you (don't) know..

From: "Phil P."
Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM
Subject: My cat just had a blockage. What now?

"Phil P." wrote in message
news:66lWg.3512$W35.1657@trnddc06

"Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned
food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's
s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for calcium
oxalate.

Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute
urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent
urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become
large enough to interfere with urination.
You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water bowls
and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain."

When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and look
up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something.

Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better?
http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutr...i ch_is_reall

snip

I am curious to know why you think salt
can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?

Here's why:

J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788.
Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al.
Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats?

Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627
Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA.
Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood
pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. .

I am not a DVM, and if you are,

Neither am I.

and if you are here in good faith to
answer people's questions,

I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for
****ing contests with assholes who read a few websites and think they know
so much.

By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you want
all the groups to see what a jerk you are?

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my transition
with Rumbles' diabetes easier. Also add so did MaryL

"MoMo via CatKB.com" u27647@uwe wrote in message news:67dffd011b9b3@uwe...
tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want
to
say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with
my
kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me
by
my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is
talking
about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of
salt
to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before
I
really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as
well)
but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil,
thank
you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more
than
you know.

Phil P. wrote:
Any more questions?

[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]

No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name.

That's a surprise.

Why did you
not answer any of my questions?

Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a
few hundred
times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is
because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post.

I have done quite a bit of
research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
so surprised by your suggestion

Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it
is--
Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough
and you don't know as much as you think you do.

is that it would seem to me
that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)

Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to
determine
whose "qualified".

should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
it contains sufficient water content.

No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it?
Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the
first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group
to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying
to
show how much you (don't) know..

From: "Phil P."
Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM
Subject: My cat just had a blockage. What now?

"Phil P." wrote in message
news:66lWg.3512$W35.1657@trnddc06

"Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned
food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's
s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for
calcium
oxalate.

Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute
urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent
urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become
large enough to interfere with urination.
You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water
bowls
and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain."

When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and
look
up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something.

Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better?
http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutr...i ch_is_reall

snip

I am curious to know why you think salt
can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?

Here's why:

J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788.
Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al.
Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats?

Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627
Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA.
Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood
pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. .

I am not a DVM, and if you are,

Neither am I.

and if you are here in good faith to
answer people's questions,

I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for
****ing contests with assholes who read a few websites and think they know
so much.

By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you
want
all the groups to see what a jerk you are?

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

tension_on_the_wire wrote:
Phil P. wrote:

"tension_on_the_wire" wrote:

Phil P. wrote:

Any more questions?

Thank you for your response.
Yes, indeed, I have more questions.

It was a rhetorical question...
Seems like you have a lot of research to do...
Are you related to Treeline by any chance?


No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you
not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of
research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me
that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)
should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
it contains sufficient water content.

A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite
crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon
which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as
being the first and most appropriate suggestion.

The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat
is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water
content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about
10% water. Cats on dry food will drink more free water, but not
generally enough to compensate what they would get if they ate
a watery diet such as wet food. Cats do not have a strong thirst
mechanism and trying to heighten it with salt, rather than working
with the cats own physiology and giving him a diet which is less
prone to causing a state of chronic dehydration seems a much
more sensible route to me. Since struvite crystals are highly
precipitable in low water content, I don't really see the point of
adding salt to a diet to temporarily increase thirst, and water intake
in a way which would then subsequently trigger a compensatory
response of increased urine *and* salt output resulting once again
in the original state of chronic dehydration. That seems like a
quick fix solution, rather than a definitive answer that might
actually get at the etiology of the original problem.

And I fail to see why cats are *protected* from hypertension. My own
cat is hypertensive, though not from salt intake, for sure. But cats
are prone to hypertension for other reasons, a common cause
being hyperthyroidism, for example, and since chronic renal failure,
which most certainly can result from hypertension, is one of the number
one killers of domestic cats, I am curious to know why you think salt
can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?

I am not a DVM, and if you are, and if you are here in good faith to
answer people's questions, why won't you engage in an informative
discussion with me about this? If I am mistaken about anything
I have said here, I would most humbly appreciate being corrected.
But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
arrogant and condescending of you. It would certainly be informative
for many people reading this post including the original poster who has
problems with his cat.

Tension,

It was wonderful to read your posts. You seem like a very intelligent,
and better yet -- in control of your emotions!

I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.

Hope you stick around and continue to be a level-headed voice, and be
willing to stick your neck out.

Rhonda

tension_on_the_wire wrote:

Phil P. wrote:
Seems like you have a lot of research to do...
Are you related to Treeline by any chance?

No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you
not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of
research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me
that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)
should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
it contains sufficient water content.

A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite
crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon
which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as
being the first and most appropriate suggestion.

The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat
is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water
content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about
10% water.

My goodness. It's been a long while since I have posted anything
dealing with Phil P. I must have made a BAAAAD impression

You're right about water. One good article for me, geniune research
article in a refereed journal, I think, from across the pond stated
that cats on 100% canned food had zero crystals, either in fresh or
stored urine samples. That was pretty darn impressive. Zero crystals.
Unfortunately, they did not go into which canned foods, in case that
would matter. But even free in stored samples which would tend to
generate false positives, I do suspect.

You want a reference? You talking to me? Oops, wrong movie:

TITL: An investigation into the effects of storage on the diagnosis of
crystalluria in cats.

AUTH: Sturgess C P; Hesford A; Owen H; Privett R

ORGA: Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of
Bristol,
Langford, Bristol BS40 5DU, UK.

CITE: J Feline Med Surg 2001 Jun; 3 (2): 81-5 Volume 3, Issue 2

ABST: Urinalysis was performed on 41 cats with no history of
urinary tract disease. Samples were divided into aliquots, stored
under differing condition and then examined for the presence of
crystalluria. Crystalluria was detected in at least one stored
sample in 92% of cats fed a mixed wet/dry food diet compared to
24% in the fresh sample. Crystalluria was not detected in any
sample or aliquot from cats fed all wet food diets.
Copyright 2001 European Society of Feline Medicine.

MJTR: Cat Diseases, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, veterinary.
Specimen Handling, veterinary.

MNTR: Animal. Animal Feed. Cat Diseases, urine. Cats. Female.
Kidney Calculi, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, urine. Magnesium
Compounds, urine. Male. Phosphates, urine. Predictive Value of
Tests. Specimen Handling, standards.

So let me throw out something. Phosphorus, oops wrong thread. Anyway,
keep the phosphorus low, 0.70%. Science Diet has all their foods around
this. Purina has most of their foods, all of them, above this except
for a very, very few.

It's not clear to me if the phosphorus has anything to do with
crystals. Probably not. But might have something to do with making the
kidneys work more than they should have to.

Okay, back to the grind. Phil's okay. He's done a lot of reading.
Bought a lot of textbooks. And it's great to have a well-read sounding
board with lots of experience with strays and rescues I believe, even
if he has the temperament of an angry diva

"Rhonda" wrote in message

I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.

Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that
matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to
drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration.

When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a
person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the
body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water.

Upscale wrote:
"Rhonda" wrote in message

I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.


Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that
matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to
drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration.

When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a
person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the
body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water.

That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have
the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.)

Rhonda

"Rhonda" wrote in message
...

That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have
the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.)

No, no no. Salt significantly increases water intake and urine production-
which is *exactly* what you want for a cat with any type of crystals--
especially calcium oxalate:

"Increasing water consumption by feeding increased amounts of canned food or
feeding a dry diet formulated with additional salt (7, 8, 9). It has been
shown that salt significantly increases water intake and urine production,
significantly decreases urinary concentrations of oxalate, and significantly
decreases relative supersaturation (RSS) for calcium oxalate (9,10). Salt
has not been shown to contribute to hypertension or renal disease in healthy
cats (11, 12)."

7. Buffington CAT, Chew DJ. Diet therapy in cats with lower urinary tract
disorders. Vet Med 1999; 94: 625-630.

8. Houston DM. Diagnosis and management of feline lower urinary tract
disease. Standards of Ca Emergency and Critical Care Medicine. Sept 2002;
4(8): 5-10.

9. Biourge V, Devois C, Morice G, et al. Dietary NaCl significantly
increases urine volume but does not increase urinary calcium oxalate
supersaturation in healthy cats. J Vet Intern Med 2001; 866.

10. Smith BH, Stevenson AE, Markwell PJ. Urinary relative supersaturations
of calcium oxalate and struvite in cats are influenced by diet. J Nutr 1998;
128:2763S-64S.

11. Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al. Does increasing dietary Nail
affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats? J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788.

12. Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA. Effects of dietary sodium chloride
intake on renal function and blood pressure n cats with normal and reduced
renal function. Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627.

excerpted from:

North American Veterinary Conference January 7, 2006
WATER INTAKE AND URINE OUTPUT: WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW ABOUT CATS AND URINARY
TRACT DISORDERS

Doreen M. Houston, DVM, DVSc, Diplomate ACVIM

"MoMo via CatKB.com" u27647@uwe wrote in message news:67da113e24c40@uwe...
Ok, I am back and am currently waiting for my vet to call me back but in
the
meantime, I thought I would ask the question here. I feel like my cat's
urine output is still get smaller everyday. I went to the vet's over the
weekend (without my cat, just to pick up food) and told the vet about this
and was told that as long as he is peeing when he is in the litter box he
is
not blocked. But now when I check, he is only putting out urine that is
clumping to about the size of a dime and I am getting really worried. He
is
not straining in the litter box when he does this so could this just be
how
he usually is? I never paid attention before the blockage. He had two
decent size urine outputs yesterday, one being about 11:30 last night.
What
do you guys think?

If you remember, I said in a previous post that the tight junctions between
the muscle fibers in the bladder might have separated a bit if his bladder
was overdistended. So he might have a little trouble contracting his
bladder. It might take a few days for the tight junctions to reform.

Its also possible all the crystals haven't dissolved completely yet, so, I'd
keep a very close watch on his litter box behavior. If you see him strain,
or try to pee and nothing or very little comes out, don't wait to take him
back to the vet.

Best of luck,

Phil

Rhonda wrote:
Upscale wrote:
"Rhonda" wrote in message

I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.


Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that
matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to
drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration.

When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a
person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the
body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water.

That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have
the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.)

Actually, Rhonda, and thank you for your previous post as well,
the homeostasis (keeping the body's fluids and electrolytes in
balance) system is extremely fine tuned. Upscale is correct
about the effect of salt, in its ability to increase body water.
One of the main methods the body controls body water is by
controlling salt balance in the blood. But the effect on a
chronically dehydrated animal or person should be to retain
both the salt and the water, so that method will not result in
a higher urine output unless the animal has normal fluid balance
to begin with (this is simplifying it, there are more variables
depending on whether the dehydration is of the high or low
salt-level type). That was why I questioned the issue of diet.
However, if the original salt levels were normal, like in
a healthy animal on a canned food diet, the extra salt will result
in a compensatory effect from the kidneys in that they will act to
rid the body of any excess salt in the end, and salt cannot be
eliminated by the kidneys without water. Hence the extra water
the cat drinks does indeed end up in the bladder
where we want it along with the salt. My only question was
regarding the wisdom of doing that for a cat which is already
potentially in a chronically dehydrated state as many cats are
who subsist on a dry diet. And of course, for evidence that
this treatment would not result in hypertension in the cat
as it most certainly does in humans who consume too
much salt. Not such an outrageous question, I thought!
8^P

--tension

"tension_on_the_wire" wrote in message
ups.com...

Not such an outrageous question, I thought!

It wasn't the question- it was the way you asked it.