Adventurous cat

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:01:06 -0400, dgk wrote:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:36:54 -0700, Mack A. Damia
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:22:19 -0400, dgk wrote:

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
"Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
this is just what I quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
"cruelty".

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?

Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
first.

Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
the words to you.

Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.

Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
my knowledge, been taken.

What strikes me is Bill's insistence that I'm a liberal asshole who
knows everything. Let me tell you - the more I know, the more I don't
know.

I try not to buttonhole people into commie or fascist. Most of us want
to better the world and the people in it. We have different ideas how
to do it. I am about as far left as they come, but that doesn't mean
that I think that I'm right on every issue or cannot learn. As you
said, the more I know, the more I don't know.

The problem is that communism doesn't work because some people are too
needy, and capitalism doesn't work because some people are too greedy.
Something in the middle seems best.. No one wants to work hard and
give their money to people who just don't want to work. On the other
hand, I don't want to fund a military that exists to expand the power
of the 1% that really rules the country but pretends to be about
keeping us "safe".

I have no control over the millions of cat owners in the world, but my
"own" opinion is that letting a cat roam is animal cruelty. It has
nothing to do whatsoever with political affiliation - except I do
think Romney is a pussy. Look at the way he walks.

It depends on the situation. In the city, there are many ways a cat
can die a painful death but lots of cats live pretty long lives
outside. There is also a numbers game. I can take in three or four
cats, but the rest live outside because there is just no one willing
to take them in. So I can make a difference to one or two but we try
the best we can to take care of the outside kittys.

Right now I'm debating what to do about Baby. She was born in a box
outside my front door and has lived all her life in the street near my
house. She's the one who pooped in my neighbor's onion plants
mentioned in another post. Well, Espy died last month so theoretically
I have an opening for another cat. Baby is a delightful cat, friendly,
small, with a nice personality as far as I can tell.

She also is very good at living outside and seems to love it. She runs
around, right up trees, and kills a bird once in a while. She rolls in
the dirt. She lets me pet her and even pick her up.. I had her TNRd
years when she was 5 months old.

So do I take her in? Winter is coming but she made it through a few
already, partly because I built her a styrofoam home with a heated
interior.

She seems to love it outside. She runs up to block when she seems me
coming right onto my stoop to be fed. She runs into my driveway, under
the bushes, up the tree. Then I go inside and my cats are lying on the
couch. Just lying there. Or upstairs, on a perch by the windows
looking out. Just lying there.

So who has the better of the deal? My indoor cats, safe but not very
stimulated even though I play the laser game and all kinds of toys. Or
Baby, who pounces on real critters or climbs real trees or runs to
greet me or one of the other neighbors.

Yes, she has a decent chance of being run over by a car. It happens.
But I think she really liikes it outside. Will she like it inside?
Maybe. Her likely daddy is Scooter, who moved in with me. Sort of a
family reunion then.

My cats actually do get to go out in my backyard, which I have fenced
in so they stay pretty safe. Still, I have to decide what to do about
Baby.

All my cats have been strays including the Silver Persian
(Lloyd-George), and the Himmilayan (Sir Percy) who was a former stud
and given away to a neglectful elderly man who gave up on taking care
of her. Came across her former ownership purely by accident. You
know how much care long-hairs need - combing everyday. Turns out Sir
Percy had a pedigree - must have been about three or four when I found
her in the dead of winter; she was absolutely filthy, but she turned
out to be one of the best puddy-tats. Her original name was
"Berryhill's Dewey Morn".

--

Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).

Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile of
your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would not be
the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that is not
universal.


--

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).

Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile of
your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would not be
the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that is not
universal.

Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
script last night about urban versus rural living.

If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm cats
keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
expendable anyway.

Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from inner-city
homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places - any place where
there are a lot of animals roaming the area and busy roads.

--

dgk wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:40:16 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

...
Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots
down, or fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from
moving them. Cats aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for
human beings. If the pots couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat
would have left them alone. Here, you can't force anyone to keep a
cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live in heavily congested
cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do would do this to
a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it pleases....

My recently departed best cat Espy used to love knocking things off of
shelves. In the middle of the night I'd hear something smash and I
knew that I left something too close to the edge. If he was an outdoor
cat, I can see him pushing pots off the edge. I think he just liked
watching stuff go down and BANG.

Roving cats can cause problems with neighbors. Sure, you can nail down
the pots or otherwise make it difficult to move them, but that's only
part of it. Cats pee and poop, and that isn't pleasant for the
neighbors. One of our stray cats likes to poop where my neighbor
planted onions and garlic. Now I know cats aren't supposed to eat
either of those, but she liked to poop there.

Not good, both because she would uproot them while trying to cover the
poop and because you really don't want your food covered with cat
poop. At least she liked to cover her poop; one of the other cats just
poops and leaves it.

I actually turn over some soil on my property weekly just so the cats
have somewhere fresh to do their things. That seems to have solved the
onion problem, as does the ending of summer, but it is a legitimate
concern that people have about free roaming cats.

At least TNRd cats don't have really smelly urine. Unneutered cat ****
can really be pungent. I don't think folks complaining about that are
being unreasonable.

When Adlai Stevenson was a judge in New York City, he wrote a decision on
the subject of keeping cats inside.... I have been looking for this
decision, but am unable to find it. Perhaps someone on this forum can help.

dgk wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:25:46 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham wrote:
Mack A. Damia wrote:
---

I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular
rounds, which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After
he died,one of his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to
my house and looked all over for his friend. Then he lay down on the
mat where my beloved B-K died for about ten minutes, and then got up
and went home. Had I imprisoned my cat, he would have never known
him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had I kept him trapped in
the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you would know why I
could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and
animals.

One of my neighbors had six cats. Five stayed inside, or maybe came
oustide and sat around the steps while the neighbor stayed with them.
But one was allowed to roam, and he died a few months back, hit by a
car. We miss him terribly, and he would be alive if forced to stay
inside, but he insisted on going out. That's where he came from and
that's where he wanted to go.

Sure they could have forced him to stay inside, but he was not happy
that way. The others know the outside and prefer to stay in. He was
just different and it would have been cruel to keep him in. So he's
dead, but we all die, and he got to enjoy his life and die without
suffering.

I picked up B-K in a Burger King parking lot when he was a year old. He made
friends with me even before I picked him up and tossed him in my car. I had
him for another 6-1/2 years during which he befriended everyo9ne for a
radius of about two blocks, including their dogs and even those who were
allergic to cats knew him and liked him. He was a most unusual cat. He was
poisoned accidently by some, "Round-Up" weed killer that a neighbor used on
his lawn. The whole block was sorry when he died, but there was no way I
could have kept him inside my house. He lived to seek out and befriend
others, both human and otherwise.

dgk wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf ingold1234 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
either block or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out
to roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live
a long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born
in the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant
difference. "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For
instance, many ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return
to the comfort of three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free
as a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but
ZI would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if
they were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a
cost of their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in
my house. They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap
them just before the roving vet gets here, so they will be
available for shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
this is just what I quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their
longevity may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't
call it "cruelty".

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
them roam.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who
thinks he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make
a law that forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?

Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of
being the first.

Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to
voice the words to you.

Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.

Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
my knowledge, been taken.

Well, I am a libertarian, which is exactly the opposite of liberal, IMO.
There are many things, especially social things, on which the liberals and I
agree, but it is my experience that liberals think that theirs is the only
way to live, and they are happy to make laws that enforce this on everyone
else. They seem incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of others, even
for a few seconds.....

On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:05:09 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:40:16 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

...
Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots
down, or fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from
moving them. Cats aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for
human beings. If the pots couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat
would have left them alone. Here, you can't force anyone to keep a
cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live in heavily congested
cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do would do this to
a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it pleases....

My recently departed best cat Espy used to love knocking things off of
shelves. In the middle of the night I'd hear something smash and I
knew that I left something too close to the edge. If he was an outdoor
cat, I can see him pushing pots off the edge. I think he just liked
watching stuff go down and BANG.

Roving cats can cause problems with neighbors. Sure, you can nail down
the pots or otherwise make it difficult to move them, but that's only
part of it. Cats pee and poop, and that isn't pleasant for the
neighbors. One of our stray cats likes to poop where my neighbor
planted onions and garlic. Now I know cats aren't supposed to eat
either of those, but she liked to poop there.

Not good, both because she would uproot them while trying to cover the
poop and because you really don't want your food covered with cat
poop. At least she liked to cover her poop; one of the other cats just
poops and leaves it.

I actually turn over some soil on my property weekly just so the cats
have somewhere fresh to do their things. That seems to have solved the
onion problem, as does the ending of summer, but it is a legitimate
concern that people have about free roaming cats.

At least TNRd cats don't have really smelly urine. Unneutered cat ****
can really be pungent. I don't think folks complaining about that are
being unreasonable.

When Adlai Stevenson was a judge in New York City, he wrote a decision on
the subject of keeping cats inside.... I have been looking for this
decision, but am unable to find it. Perhaps someone on this forum can help.

Written when he was Governor of Illinois:

"The problem of cat versus bird is as old as time. If we attempt to
resolve it by legislation who knows but what we may be called upon to
take sides as well in the age old problems of dog versus cat, bird
versus bird, or even bird versus worm. In my opinion, the State of
Illinois and its local governing bodies already have enough to do
without trying to control feline delinquency."

"For these reasons, and not because I love birds the less or cats the
more, I veto and withhold my approval from Senate Bill No. 93. Vetoing
a Bill that would have imposed fines on owners who allowed cats to run
at large." (23 April 1949).

--

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
them roam.

No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).

Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile
of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would
not be the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that
is not universal.

Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
script last night about urban versus rural living.

If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm cats
keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
expendable anyway.

Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from inner-city
homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places - any place where
there are a lot of animals roaming the area and busy roads.

To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the highway",
and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it my way. I lived and
worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq the way they think and what a
pain in the ass they are. You guys will have to do an awful lot of hand
waving to change my mind at this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and
worked in California for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a
political philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It
believes that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works toward that
end every moment of every day. It hates our constitution, because the
framers of that document were libertarians, and libertarianism is the exact
opposite of liberalism. In the last 150 years, this counjtry has gove from
libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next 150 years we will become
completely socialized. The government will own and control everything. We
will go to the schools the government wants us to go to, study the subjects
the government wants us to study (by their tests and evaluations of our
abilities) work where they want us to work, live where they want us to live,
eat what they want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally
live exactly like a colony of ants.
Thank God I won't be around to see it

"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

dgk wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:25:46 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

The Doctor wrote:
On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham wrote:
Mack A. Damia wrote:
---

I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular
rounds, which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After
he died,one of his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to
my house and looked all over for his friend. Then he lay down on the
mat where my beloved B-K died for about ten minutes, and then got up
and went home. Had I imprisoned my cat, he would have never known
him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had I kept him trapped in
the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you would know why I
could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and
animals.

One of my neighbors had six cats. Five stayed inside, or maybe came
oustide and sat around the steps while the neighbor stayed with them.
But one was allowed to roam, and he died a few months back, hit by a
car. We miss him terribly, and he would be alive if forced to stay
inside, but he insisted on going out. That's where he came from and
that's where he wanted to go.

Sure they could have forced him to stay inside, but he was not happy
that way. The others know the outside and prefer to stay in. He was
just different and it would have been cruel to keep him in. So he's
dead, but we all die, and he got to enjoy his life and die without
suffering.

I picked up B-K in a Burger King parking lot when he was a year old.
He made friends with me even before I picked him up and tossed him in
my car. I had him for another 6-1/2 years during which he befriended
everyo9ne for a radius of about two blocks, including their dogs and
even those who were allergic to cats knew him and liked him. He was a
most unusual cat. He was poisoned accidently by some, "Round-Up" weed
killer that a neighbor used on his lawn. The whole block was sorry
when he died, but there was no way I could have kept him inside my
house. He lived to seek out and befriend others, both human and
otherwise.



B-K was an amazing cat. I don't know many cats that like or associate
with dogs -- even if they're raised with them.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:51:50 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
them roam.

No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).

Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile
of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would
not be the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that
is not universal.

Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
script last night about urban versus rural living.

If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm cats
keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
expendable anyway.

Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from inner-city
homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places - any place where
there are a lot of animals roaming the area and busy roads.

To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the highway",
and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it my way. I lived and
worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq the way they think and what a
pain in the ass they are. You guys will have to do an awful lot of hand
waving to change my mind at this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and
worked in California for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a
political philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It
believes that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works toward that
end every moment of every day. It hates our constitution, because the
framers of that document were libertarians, and libertarianism is the exact
opposite of liberalism. In the last 150 years, this counjtry has gove from
libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next 150 years we will become
completely socialized. The government will own and control everything. We
will go to the schools the government wants us to go to, study the subjects
the government wants us to study (by their tests and evaluations of our
abilities) work where they want us to work, live where they want us to live,
eat what they want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally
live exactly like a colony of ants.
Thank God I won't be around to see it

I disagree completely but that is the nature of newsgroups. I will add
an on topic link that was requested elsewhere, noting a veto of a law
by noted liberal governer Adlai Stephenson on the subject of outlawing
roaming cats:

http://www.bartleby.com/73/163.html

And it is conservatives who rule that marriage isn't meant for gay
people, and conservatives that make it illegal for me to smoke pot,
and conservatives who want a raped woman to bear the child.

Should society not force children to go to school? Should we not teach
them science even though it may contradict religous teachings? Should
we have laws that parents can't kill their own children?

I suppose a true libertarian rejects all of these? Then I'm glad I'm a
liberal and not a libertarian.