[OT] [PW] [Long] America Bashing

In article , David Stevenson
wrote:

Sherry wrote
Maybe not, but remember what started this discussion: a dislike of
people criticising Americans. You cannot have it both ways. Either
you
support Americans having the right to talk in a way that winds other
people up, or you do not. If you support it you must expect the
results
to follow.

I'm not criticizing your post, David, but I am simply bumfuzzled by it.
What do
you mean? What kind of talk "winds people up"? I just don't see anyone
bashing
the English, or any other country for that matter to the extent that the
Americans are the brunt of criticism. I would say never on this group.

Americans tend to promote themselves and their country more than
other
nations. Surely it is not unreasonable to expect a greater reaction?

There you go again. If you would just use the word "some" Americans, I
don't
think it would sound like so much like you are tarring an entire nation
with
the same brush.

I said "tend to". That's my experience. If you wish to take
generalisations to the particular, that's your choice, but there is no
reason to.

Do you really believe that the average American does not promote his
country more than the average person in some other country?


No, and there's a fairly logical defense of that. I would suggest the
"average American", or, perhaps, I should say "USAian", has neither
traveled internationally nor has extensive communications outside the
country. Given that, to whom are they promoting their country?

Personally, I've traveled a moderate amount, but have worked extensively
in international teams doing research and development. Certainly with
the major professional societies doing Internet research and
engineering, the greatest number of participants are in the USA, but the
day-to-day interaction is by electronic means. I would be hard-pressed
to think of an example when anyone in the Internet Engineering Task
Force promoted any country. The IETF meets physically three times a
year, and its rules require one of those meetings be outside the US,
even though that may mean that more participants will travel
internationally to get to those meetings.

Now -- do individuals and organizations in electronic media, for
example, tend to be USA-centric? Quite probably so. Indeed, when I try
to get quick web news, I go to the international, rather than the USA,
edition of CNN, because the former is far less cluttered with USA
"popular culture" focused on "celebrities" [1], sensational but
fundamentally inconsequential crime, political posturing, etc.

As others have mentioned, some of this is more corporate, and
specifically multinational-corporate, than it is individual. The
Constitution of the United States of America guarantees the right to
freedom of the press, but that is the freedom to own and use a press --
not necessarily to have a forum. When you speak of Americans in general,
do consider the audience that each American can reach -- it will vary
rather widely.



[1] A fascinating word as it has evolved in the USA. I suspect that
this is more of a cross-cultural phenomenon than many think,
although I am only aware of a Japanese word ("talento") with
the same connotation: a person that is famous for being famous,
or perhaps merely notorious. It's really a shame that we don't
have Oscar Wilde to phrase this in a pithier manner. Wilde, true,
was a celebrity of his time -- but also demostrated literary
brilliance.

Indeed, when you speak of "promoting" one's country, I wonder if
there isn't an echo of Wilde's "Ballad of Reading Gaol":

Yet each man kills the thing he loves
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!

"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...
In article , "CatNipped"
wrote:

"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...

With "trackless" electronic voting, we'll never know, will
we? (I'm of your opinion, I just didn't want to drag in
another red herring.)

OTOH, most cats probably like herring.

ROTFLMAO! Thanks Howard, it's about time we got this back on topic!!
;

Hugs,

CatNipped



All right. Does a cat think dragging in a red human is indicative of an
irrelevancy? Do cats dislike sunburned humans?

In my experience, cat sprefer sunburnt humans. Throughout the year, Shmogg
pretty much ignores me, but if I've been stupid enough to get sunburnt, well
doesn't he just need to walk across my sunburnt shoulders, lick my sunburnt
ears, and scratch at my sunburnt calves....

Yowie


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"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
...


jmcquown wrote:


What bugged me the most was these same people had no problem with our
insurance covering gastric bypass surgery for a number of people who
really
didn't need it.

At $40,000 USD a pop, with 8 people having had the surgery in a single
year,
just imagine the insurance premium increases for everyone else. Oh, I
didn't have to imagine in, I lived it in 2003.

Only 2 people I worked with followed the doctors orders and the surgery
was
very successful for them. And they weren't overeaters (nor unhealthy
eaters) to begin with. They'd had a predisposition to being overwheight
since childhood and problems with blood pressure, knee joint issues,
etc.
That's who it's for. More power to them!

I can't IMAGINE having any "elective" surgery at all - let
alone anything so invasive and yes, life-threatening! I put
off simple (nowadays) cataract surgery as long as I could,
and that is "elective" only in the sense that you CAN opt
for blindness instead, but who would do so voluntarily?

Cataract surgery is worth it! For one thing, it can be done on an
outpatient basis, so you don't have to be in the hospital. For another, the
results are outstanding!

Joy (I had mine two years ago)

"Yowie" wrote in message
...
I think South Park summed up politics (of any country) perfectly:

"Why should I vote if the choice is between a douche and a sh*t
sandwhich?"

Those people who did not vote in the same way as you did may not think the
person they voted for is great or wonderful or perfect, in fact they way
well think he or she is a blithering idiot too, just that out of the two
choices (and its always just two choices), that their choice was only just
slightly less abhorrent to them than yours was.

Yowie

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Yowie. Most of us who voted
against W felt the same way. I'm sick of voting for the lesser of two
evils! It would be so nice to have somebody to vote *for*!

Joy

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

In article , wrote:


bonbon wrote:


On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:58:29 -0800, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:



bonbon wrote:



I'm proud to be American.

I WAS, until our moronic majority actually ELECTED the
current idiot to the White House for a second term!


I disagree. I'm of the opinion that he and his party cheated again.

With "trackless" electronic voting, we'll never know, will
we? (I'm of your opinion, I just didn't want to drag in
another red herring.)


OTOH, most cats probably like herring.

You know, I thought of that, after I made the post! (Of
course the only herring we ever have around here is either
pickled or kippered, neither of which elicits much interest
from Melisande.)

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

In article , "CatNipped"
wrote:


"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...


With "trackless" electronic voting, we'll never know, will
we? (I'm of your opinion, I just didn't want to drag in
another red herring.)


OTOH, most cats probably like herring.

ROTFLMAO! Thanks Howard, it's about time we got this back on topic!! ;

Hugs,

CatNipped




All right. Does a cat think dragging in a red human is indicative of an
irrelevancy? Do cats dislike sunburned humans?


Can't say for sure, but you can bet I'd stay well distanced
from any cat capable of "dragging in" a human of ANY size!!!

Yowie wrote:

"Sherry " wrote in message
...

I don't support such talk: but I don't support Americans winding
others up. I just think that the more some Americans wind other people
up the more the average American must expect a reaction.

Again, David, how do some Americans wind people up? What would be an

example?

Unless I'm just too close to the situation, that I just can't see it, I

can't

think of any example you could be talking about.


May I answer this?

I've just deleted a whole bunch of stuff that, once I re-read it, sounded
rather flamey. I didn't mean it to sound like that, but when you start
griping, thats how it inevitabley turns out.

To sum up my page of complaints, it is generally related to the the
assumption by some individual Americans that its "obvious that All things
American are the best, and that given a choice, the rest of the world would
all like to be like America" type of thing that us non-Americans
occasionally come across in our journeys in cyberspace. The other, less
insulting, but just annoying thing, is the assumption that any
English-speaking/writing person in cyberspace is American. To save this
wonderful group from degenerating into flames, I could e-mail you (or anyone
else) examples if when I come across them (if I remember) explaining why
they are irksome.

They're irksome to a lot of Americans, too, Yowie - which is
why I jump into discussions like this! Sure, in many ways
the U.S. is a good place to live - but I can point out a lot
of ways in which other places are, too. (I, for one, would
move to Europe tomorrow if there were any way I could live
on my unaugmented "retirement" income in anyplace I'd WANT
to live.)

I said "tend to". That's my experience. If you wish to take
generalisations to the particular, that's your choice, but there is no
reason to.

Do you really believe that the average American does not promote his
country more than the average person in some other country?

--
David Stevenson

I'm referring to newsgroup discussion; so to answer your question
categorically, no, I don't think so. Or not in the newsgroups I frequent
anyway. The only "promoting" I see, truly, is more accurately "defending"
against snide remarks, or condescending little put-downs. Maybe we're too
ultra-sensitive to that *because* of a tendency to promote. I dunno.
I *do* know, however, that I learned *quick* about American bashing when I
*lurked* in a uk pets group. This doesn't apply to any posters here, of course;
but sometimes there was more bandwidth spent on how fat, lazy, dumb, arrogant
and murderous Americans were than they talked about their pets. It was pretty
shocking to me. That was the first taste I ever had that some people blanket
their dislike of American policy or whatever right down to individuals they
don't even know. I honestly, truly, never understood the need for them to go on
and on ragging about Americans, telling awful American jokes and whotnot.. I
understand, of course, that was a select few and in no way representive of
your entire country. But, David, I have never seen Americans rag on and on
about other ally countries. Remember this is simply an observation that I've
made over the years, and it is why I don't agree with you that Americans
deliberately "wind up" people.
Sherry

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

No, and there's a fairly logical defense of that. I would suggest the
"average American", or, perhaps, I should say "USAian", has neither
traveled internationally nor has extensive communications outside the
country. Given that, to whom are they promoting their country?

To other English-speaking posters on the internet? And NOT
having "traveled internationally nor had extensive
communications outside the country" (thus lacking any
reasonable basis for judgment) doesn't prevent the "my
country, right or wrong (but NEVER "wrong")" faction from
vociferously claiming America's alleged "superiority" in all
things! That allegation is so patently untrue, how can
anyone blame people of more experience for their negative
responses?

To sum up my page of complaints, it is generally related to the the
assumption by some individual Americans that its "obvious that All things
American are the best, and that given a choice, the rest of the world would
all like to be like America" type of thing that us non-Americans

I think I can explain that. And I'll be the first to admit some people are
*exactly* like that. The assumptions that you've listed are what we cut our
teeth on. We are drilled from kindergarten that the United States is the best
country in the whole world; the largest, most powerful, most charitable, blah
blah blah. Unfortunately, at the time and place I was early-educated, we were
hardly taught other places even existed. World history and world social studies
were a couple of semesters in high school and usually taught by somebody named
"Coach" who spent more time talking about the wishbone formation than other
cultures.
The people that have the attitudes you're talking about also usually aren't
well-traveled at all. If it weren't for the internet, I'd probably be more like
that myself.
Don't get me wrong, I am very patriotic and love my country. But I kind of
cringe when I read how well-versed other people are on our history, our
politics, and our culture, when I myself hardly can even find *their* countries
on a map. Since I'm in my 40's, I can't still blame my high school teacher
though. But I do try to be open-minded. I just think everybody should be
mindful of the "individual" on the newsgroup, the one that purrs for you, calls
you in the middle of the night, sends you cards, and offers a sypathetic "ear"
(eye?) in the middle of the night before we go making a foolish or thoughtless
remark about the country they happen to be born in.
Just my .02.